haste gish

[Skrum]

I love the haste spell, double-edge and all. I would like to make a character that uses haste as much as possible, but it being a 3rd level spell, it's a bit clunky to get.

What I'm looking for
- uses haste, as much as possible
- fights in melee
- ideally, extra attack, but I'm open to other ideas

Builds I've thought of so far
- Straight bladesinger (pros: no multiclassing so comes up quick, full casting progression, boost to concentration checks. Cons: haste takes an action to cast, limited weapon options)
- Fighter 5 Sorcerer 5 (pros: more hit points, heavy armor, insane burst potential, war caster is a fantastic all around feat. Cons: comes online late at level 10, limited haste casts)
- Paladin 2 Sorcerer X (pros: comes online pretty quick, hits hard with smite, lots of spell slots. Cons: harder to hit the concentration checks, no extra attack)

I lean fighter 5 sorc 5? But again, comes on so late. Not ideal. Though, Eldritch Knight would offset the loss of spellcasting levels a little and it's not like the character would need to boost Int at all.

Any other options? Opinions on what I've thought of?

[Kane0]

This may be the obvious question, but what about allies casting it on you? Nobody else in the party can cast it, or usually concentrate on other things?

Pure Paladin and Ranger have the chance to get Haste via subclass (Glory/Vengeance and Horizon Walker respectively)

Rakdos, Prismari and Quandrix backgrounds all offer Haste as a bonus spell, so you could pick it up on a Warlock, Bard or Cleric.

[J-H]

It's really good on Vengeance Paladins.

Artificers get it, and have Flash of Genius to help keep it up. Armorer and Battlesmith get extra attack. Armorer can be hasted and flying, which gives a lot of mobility using either the inbuilt weapons or your weapon of choice.

[RogueJK]

It's always better for a frontliner to be Hasted as opposed to Hasting themselves. Not only does it protect the guy directly in melee range from being incapacitated for a round when/if Concentration is lost, it also allows that frontliner to use their own Concentration to buff themselves with an additional Concentration spell.

But putting that aside... Bladesinger is the answer here. It gets Haste online twice as fast as a 50/50 multiclass or half caster, and can cast more Hastes per day too. Their Concentration will be better than the others, especially with either Warcaster or Resilient CON stacked on top of Bladesong's +INT. And thanks to their special ability to swap in a cantrip in place on an attack, they're not missing out on much damage output in the turn they cast Haste.

Round 1 of combat, they use their Bonus Action to activate Bladesong, then use their Action to cast Haste, and then use their Haste Action to make one Attack boosted with a SCAGtrip. (Which they can do with their Haste Action since it's still the Attack action - just being replaced with a cantrip - not specifically the Cast a Spell Action.)

[Skrum]

A character that gets haste cast on them is not a haste-based character. I 100% understand the mechanical superiority, but since the table I play at has rotating players and characters, that's 1) not something I can count on having available, and 2) doesn't fit the theme. While I haven't worked out all the details yet, I like the angle of a guy who's addicted to haste in some capacity. Like he has trouble staying awake or something, until he casts haste, and then he's fully aware.

Bladesinger...bladesinger bladesinger...yeah. It is the most practical option. I'm just leery of the hit points I guess. I want this to be a melee character, not a wizard.

[J-H]

Paladins with Resilient:Con have the best shot at a high Con save. In my Against the Idol of the Sun game, the vengeance paladin was rocking a +14 or +15 Con save. That lets you auto-pass all but the toughest hits.

[tKUUNK]

It's always better for a frontliner to be Hasted as opposed to Hasting themselves. Not only does it protect the guy directly in melee range from being incapacitated for a round when/if Concentration is lost, it also allows that frontliner to use their own Concentration to buff themselves with an additional Concentration spell.

But putting that aside... Bladesinger is the answer here. It gets Haste online twice as fast as a 50/50 multiclass or half caster, and can cast more Hastes per day too. Their Concentration will be better than the others, especially with either Warcaster or Resilient CON stacked on top of Bladesong's +INT. And thanks to their special ability to swap in a cantrip in place on an attack, they're not missing out on much damage output in the turn they cast Haste.

Round 1 of combat, they use their Bonus Action to activate Bladesong, then use their Action to cast Haste, and then use their Haste Action to make one Attack boosted with a SCAGtrip. (Which they can do with their Haste Action since it's still the Attack action - just being replaced with a cantrip - not specifically the Cast a Spell Action.)

Good call.

You could always start off with a level of fighter for martial weapons and proficient CON save. Take a second level of fighter down the road for Action Surge.

A sorcerer could Twin haste & share the love if that makes sense with your party composition. Is your best friend a barbarian? Or a monk or rogue who'd like to move insanely fast for a minute? Otherwise, I don't see the point of going sorcerer. Nothing against them of course! I don't need any more sorcerer enemies.

[JonBeowulf]

It's really good on Vengeance Paladins.
Strongly disagree for this very reason:


It's always better for a frontliner to be Hasted as opposed to Hasting themselves. Not only does it protect the guy directly in melee range from being incapacitated for a round when/if Concentration is lost, it also allows that frontliner to use their own Concentration to buff themselves with an additional Concentration spell.

My Vengeance Paladin cast it on himself exactly one time, right after he got access to it. It was great for 2 rounds, but the failed CON check followed by incapacitation almost cost him his life. Have someone else throw it on you.

[Psyren]

Swords and Valor both get it, but you'll be waiting quite a while (10th) unless you multiclass.

I think Bladesinger checks all your boxes the fastest. Metamagic Adept will let you occasionally quicken out a Haste when you need one asap,

[tokek]

Bladesinger is the obvious classic choice.

4 levels later Artificer Battle Smith or armorer does it pretty well. Int SAD and battle smith has a far greater choice of weapons - so you can go GWM if you like.

Con save proficiency and flash of genius combined means it doesn’t backfire very often. Also infusions that improve your saves - cloak of protection is available at 10th level and ring of protection at 14th. But the big one is mind sharpener - use your reaction to auto-pass concentration regardless of DC.

[Unoriginal]

A character that gets haste cast on them is not a haste-based character. I 100% understand the mechanical superiority, but since the table I play at has rotating players and characters, that's 1) not something I can count on having available, and 2) doesn't fit the theme. While I haven't worked out all the details yet, I like the angle of a guy who's addicted to haste in some capacity. Like he has trouble staying awake or something, until he casts haste, and then he's fully aware.

Bladesinger...bladesinger bladesinger...yeah. It is the most practical option. I'm just leery of the hit points I guess. I want this to be a melee character, not a wizard.

At which level are you starting?

Glory Paladin gets the spell at 9, Eldritch Knight at 13.

[Skrum]

Starting level is flexible, but I'd like to be no higher than 6. Top level is 10 - though there's a possibility we go as high as 12.

My top choice right now is fighter 1/bladesinger 8/fighter +1. Leaning shadar kai (elves are a big deal in the game). Point buy starting stats would be str 8 dex 17 con 14 int 16 wis 10 cha 8. Elven accuracy and war caster for feats, though I'm not 100% on elven accuracy.

I like fighter first for con proficiency and dueling fighting style. I'm taking dex over int because this character is a swordsman first - gonna be focusing on spells that don't need saves. And I love getting action surge later (cast haste so many times they can speed themselves up without it!)

No this is not best practices. But I don't like playing "traditional" builds.

[Slipjig]

Kinda depends on what level you are starting at. If you are starting at 10+, you have a lot of choices. Anything less than that, Bladesinger is definitely the way to go.

If you are willing to be item-dependent and your DM allows you to request items, a Tome of the Stilled Tongue with would allow you to cast Haste as a bonus action and then go to town with the attacks on Round 1.

[Aimeryan]

Would you likely have access to a Ring of Storing? You could cast the Haste into it and give it to someone else to Concentrate on - Ranged Fighter or Ranged Rogue probably best (just don't trust the Rogue to not use it on themselves!).

Chronomancy Wizard could also do this with the level 10 feature, but its not going to be great in sustained melee (Cleric dip for armour and shield proficiency + Shield spell will give great AC, but its not something you want to be doing every round).

Talking about Rogues, they probably benefit most from Haste if they Ready their usual action to attack off-turn and use the Haste action to attack on-turn (double Sneak Attack). Arcane Trickster doesn't get it until 13 though, so it wouldn't fit your criteria (and no Extra Attack). Maybe Bladesinger 6, Rogue X could work? Anyone got any experience with that?

Otherwise, Paladins can crit fish for Smites with it, especially if Elven Accuracy. Vengeance gets Haste at level 9. If you can get that Ring of Storing this is probably your best bet. If no Ring, you will probably want to grab Shield from a Sorc/Hexblade dip because otherwise with the amount of rolls you'll be making as melee it is highly likely self-Concentrating Haste will be more of a hindrance than a help.

[Unoriginal]

Starting level is flexible, but I'd like to be no higher than 6. Top level is 10 - though there's a possibility we go as high as 12.

My top choice right now is fighter 1/bladesinger 8/fighter +1. Leaning shadar kai (elves are a big deal in the game). Point buy starting stats would be str 8 dex 17 con 14 int 16 wis 10 cha 8. Elven accuracy and war caster for feats, though I'm not 100% on elven accuracy.

I like fighter first for con proficiency and dueling fighting style. I'm taking dex over int because this character is a swordsman first - gonna be focusing on spells that don't need saves. And I love getting action surge later (cast haste so many times they can speed themselves up without it!)

No this is not best practices. But I don't like playing "traditional" builds.

Alternatively, since you're starting as a Fighter, you can go for STR instead of DEX and take the War Wizard subclass to add your INT mod to initiative.

That way you can say you are quick because of your experience with Haste rather than due to being agile.

Furthermore, with the War Wizard's perks for Dispelling and Counterspelling, you have a great explanation as to why pursue both arcane and martial might: you can counter others' magic or others's swords, but they can't counter both your magic and your sword at the same time.

Plus all the perks of high AC and decent HPs.

Also War Wizard requires less levels than Bladesinger to get all the wanted perks. So you could start your game as a Fighter 1/War Wizard 5 and have all you need Wizard-wise. Or nearly so if you really want the 6th lvl subclass perk.

That would let you be a Fighter 5/Wizard 5 by lvl 10, or a Fighter 4/Wizard 6.

[tokek]

I think the best balance for you might be

Artificer 2/Bladesinger x

Probably progress as Artificer 1, Wizard to 5, Artificer 2, then wizard all the way. Haste at level 6, multiple attacks at level 8.

That gets you haste reasonably early with decent half-armor options so you are not super-squishy but you still get multi-attack before you are all done

Has con save proficiency built in, spell slot progression is not too badly hurt which fuels your haste spell and you get a bunch more spells known

The key thing is you still get the Mind Sharpener so Haste is far, far less of a trap choice even when your con save proficiency lets you down.

War magic or Chronurgy both compete as other good options here although I think bladesinger still does enough to be worth it.

[RogueJK]

That gets you haste reasonably early with decent half-armor options so you are not super-squishy

Bladesingers lose Bladesong if they wear heavier than Light Armor or use a shield, so dipping Artificer won't help their AC like other types of Wizards.

But the CON save proficiency could be handy, without bring a level behind in spell slots. And a second level of Artificer eventually to infuse their light armor with Mind Sharpener isn't a bad idea, due to the especially steep price of losing Concentration on Haste. That would free them from having to take either Resilient CON or Warcaster, allowing them to use their two ASIs to put towards stat boosts.

Something like a Shadar-Kai Artificer 1 -> Bladesinger 6 (for Haste and Extra Attack) -> Artificer 2 -> Bladesinger 8, taking Elven Accuracy or Piercer (18 DEX) at Wizard 4 and 20 DEX at Wizard 8.

[RogueJK]

Also, since the Bladesinger's Wizard hit points are apparently a primary concern, check with your DM to see if they'll allow the newer player creation/background rules. In the latest releases (Spelljammer, Planescape, etc.), the newer backgrounds come with a feat attached, and if you choose to use an older style background that didn't, you get your pick of either the Skilled or Tough feat at Level 1.

Tough's +2 HP per level puts the Wizard's d6 hit dice on par with the Fighter's d10 if taking the average at level up (3.5+2 = 5.5, rounded up to 6).

[tokek]

Bladesingers lose Bladesong if they wear heavier than Light Armor or use a shield, so dipping Artificer won't help their AC like other types of Wizards.

But the CON save proficiency could be handy, without bring a level behind in spell slots. And a second level of Artificer eventually to infuse their light armor with Mind Sharpener isn't a bad idea, due to the especially steep price of losing Concentration on Haste. That would free them from having to take either Resilient CON or Warcaster, allowing them to use their two ASIs to put towards stat boosts.

Something like a Shadar-Kai Artificer 1 -> Bladesinger 6 (for Haste and Extra Attack) -> Artificer 2 -> Bladesinger 8, taking Elven Accuracy or Piercer (18 DEX) at Wizard 4 and 20 DEX at Wizard 8.

With only Int 16 all the way up I think bladesong is a bit of a trap at times. Half plate + shield does at least as well with no resources and never getting caught with your defences down. Studded leather and bladesong is alright once you push your Dex up but I think until then I would make sure to have some proper armor on hand to keep your character alive. I think its good to have the option - especially if your game tends towards longer adventuring days where resources get tight. AC19 with zero resources expended (except gold) is pretty nice in tier 1 and 2.

But the Mind Sharpener is the real reason for the Artificer dip - it really is that good on a Haste build. At upper tier 2 I find the concentration DC can get really nasty - and its when you just took that nasty crit that you especially don't want to fail the save. Even with bonuses on it you sometimes just can't make that save

I would agree Shadar-kai or Eladrin. Shadar-kai is the more obvious choice but I've had a lot of good results with the rider effects on Eladrin fey step on my Battle Smith melee gish.

[Keravath]

I use it all the time on an Armorer Artificer using the built in Thunder Gauntlets for melee. Con save proficiency + flash of genius + mnemonic enhancer infusion (automatically pass a failed concentration save) makes it much more difficult to fail the concentration saves. Unfortunately, it doesn't come online until level 9 when he Armorer picks up 3rd level spells.

[Skrum]

Yeah, I actually really like the artificer kit for this, but it comes in a little too late, and with to few casts. At 9 (and 10?) I'll only have 2 3rd level slots. That's tough to manage if it's the cornerstone of the build.

Lot to like about artificer 2 though, over fighter. +1 spell casting level, extra cantrips (haste + bladesinger gives two cantrips a turn, so more cantrips is pretty cool), and mind sharpener.

AC Breakdown @level 6
My plan was mage armor (13) + dex (4) + int (3) + haste (2) + bracers of defense (2) = 24. That's quite good, even for the skewed table I play at. Plus shield on reaction of course.

I think that's the best plan? I was looking at barrier tattoo as well, but it seems to work out to 1 less AC, unless I boost int more. But I don't want to do that b/c dex is my attack stat.

Although, if I swap dex and int, and then count on elven accuracy to get my hits (we use flanking so advantage is cheap), I could have a 20 int, which with a 18 AC barrier tattoo would beat out the mage armor route. And also be permanent.

Would also open up battle smith at level 11 for the int SAD.

Sounds like that might be the way to go? I mean, it almost definitely is, I just hate having a 16 in my main stat for so long.

[tokek]

That seems like a solid plan

Although I will say that if you could pick any magic item then illusionists bracers would be really cool on this build. You cast a cantrip (and also attack), then use your ability to cantrip on attack with your haste attack, then cast again as a BA. Booming blades for the win! I think that works.

Losing Bracers of Defence hurts your AC of course but dead monsters can't beat your AC.

I still think half plate and a shield is a solid standby option for that one time you run out of spell slots and bladesinging uses. Have an unseen servant carry it around in a sack :smallsmile:

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, I actually really like the artificer kit for this, but it comes in a little too late, and with to few casts. At 9 (and 10?) I'll only have 2 3rd level slots. That's tough to manage if it's the cornerstone of the build.

Lot to like about artificer 2 though, over fighter. +1 spell casting level, extra cantrips (haste + bladesinger gives two cantrips a turn, so more cantrips is pretty cool), and mind sharpener.

AC Breakdown @level 6
My plan was mage armor (13) + dex (4) + int (3) + haste (2) + bracers of defense (2) = 24. That's quite good, even for the skewed table I play at. Plus shield on reaction of course.

I think that's the best plan? I was looking at barrier tattoo as well, but it seems to work out to 1 less AC, unless I boost int more. But I don't want to do that b/c dex is my attack stat.

Although, if I swap dex and int, and then count on elven accuracy to get my hits (we use flanking so advantage is cheap), I could have a 20 int, which with a 18 AC barrier tattoo would beat out the mage armor route. And also be permanent.

Would also open up battle smith at level 11 for the int SAD.

Sounds like that might be the way to go? I mean, it almost definitely is, I just hate having a 16 in my main stat for so long.

Sorry, how are you getting +Int to your AC?

[tokek]

Sorry, how are you getting +Int to your AC?

Bladesinging does that.

[Unoriginal]

Bladesinging does that.

Thank you, for some reason I misread Skrum's post about going full Bladesinger.

[Skrum]

Although I will say that if you could pick any magic item then illusionists bracers would be really cool on this build. You cast a cantrip (and also attack), then use your ability to cantrip on attack with your haste attack, then cast again as a BA. Booming blades for the win! I think that works.


We can craft some stuff, but Illusionists Bracers are not one of them - in fact, they are banned lol.

The options for crafted items is somewhat limited but still hits a lot of the major options. The catch though is that we can't stack bonuses - like, a character can't craft a ring of protection and a plate +1, as they both boost AC.

[Aimeryan]

We can craft some stuff, but Illusionists Bracers are not one of them - in fact, they are banned lol.

The options for crafted items is somewhat limited but still hits a lot of the major options. The catch though is that we can't stack bonuses - like, a character can't craft a ring of protection and a plate +1, as they both boost AC.

If you can craft a Ring of Storing and you have a non-Concentration ranged member in the party that would be ideal in my estimation.

[RSP]

Just throwing it out there as an option, though I agree the Bladesinger probably works best.

Once you get into T2, Clockwork Soul can be a good melee build, mainly by leaning into AoA with Bastion of Law, and a daily upcast Aid.

The upside here is getting native Con saves without multiclassing, meta magic, and not being defenseless if you lose Haste Conc, assuming you have AoA and/or BoL (neither uses an action).

Less offense for a lot more thorny-ness.

The build doesn’t require high Cha, so Dex>Con>Cha works. Use Mage Armor and Shield, Haste and whatever else you like for utility.

[Xapi]

A character that gets haste cast on them is not a haste-based character. I 100% understand the mechanical superiority, but since the table I play at has rotating players and characters, that's 1) not something I can count on having available, and 2) doesn't fit the theme. While I haven't worked out all the details yet, I like the angle of a guy who's addicted to haste in some capacity. Like he has trouble staying awake or something, until he casts haste, and then he's fully aware.

Bladesinger...bladesinger bladesinger...yeah. It is the most practical option. I'm just leery of the hit points I guess. I want this to be a melee character, not a wizard.

IMHO roleplay wise, if you want the character to be a functional addict, not having access to casting Haste themselves is actually a plus.

Having to sustain himself on Haste scrolls, a scroll supplier that basically acts like his dealer, and/or forming a dependant relationship with a PC or NPC that can cast Haste are all very interesting roleplay avenues.