Feats you think are underrated?

[pabelfly]

So, what feats do you think are underrated?

I'm finding myself becoming a fan of the Abyssal Heritor feats. If I have a build that works well and has a bunch of spare feats, I can get a bunch of bonuses that make my build more solid without standing out too much. Cloak of Obyrith, Demonic Skin, Precognitive Visions and Otherworldly Countenance gives me +3 to Natural Armor, +4 DR, +4 Intimidate, +1 to attack rolls and another +1 to AC. Not bad for four feats.

So, what feats does everyone else feel are underrated?

[Condé]

I think it is bad for 4 feats. Fey heritage and it's demonic counterpart I don't remember the name are a bit better. I could be wrong but at least you get some good spell-like abilities.

Lolth's caress. It is obscure and circumstantial. And probably hard to use. Okay it is probably a bit on the bad spectrum. But in a vacuum you can inflict some really nasty debuffs.
Some poisons only have interesting secondary effect but let's be honest, no creature is going to live long enough to suffer it.
With lolth's caress and if you invest into poisons (why? I don't know.) You could pull some nasty tricks.
It does not deserve to shine but it might be too easy to oversight it.

[Alabenson]

Draconic Aura can be really powerful on the right build. Granted, you need to have some way of getting the dragonblooded subtype for it to be really worth it, which might require the Dragontouched feat, but for the right build there are several auras that can be really powerful, especially since they can benefit multiple party members.

[Silva Stormrage]

Planar Touchstone, especially with Catalogues of Enlightenment isn't really underrated but I think using it to grab Water/Earth/Fire/Air domains and similar that grant rebuke X are underrated. For some sole reason of if you can capture a creature of that type you can apply negative levels to it to allow you to rebuke and command such a creature effortlessly. There are some pretty good minions with those subtypes if you can find/planar bind them and many are quite strong for their level.

For most builds its not that great but it can be a very cheap and easy way to add a cool minion to a build without going all in on minionmancy (As unless you are going to keep them negative level drained forever or permanently weakened they will eventually eat up most of your control cap.

[AvatarVecna]

So, what feats do you think are underrated?

I'm finding myself becoming a fan of the Abyssal Heritor feats. If I have a build that works well and has a bunch of spare feats, I can get a bunch of bonuses that make my build more solid without standing out too much. Cloak of Obyrith, Demonic Skin, Precognitive Visions and Otherworldly Countenance gives me +3 to Natural Armor, +4 DR, +4 Intimidate, +1 to attack rolls and another +1 to AC. Not bad for four feats.

"has a bunch of spare feats"

I've located a reason these aren't very popular.

I think feats would generally be better balanced if they either gave new capabilities or gave gradually-increasing bonuses to stuff, and these feats do the latter sorta, but only if you lock yourself into their feat chain. It would be way better if these feats just naturally improved regardless of what other feats you take, instead of locking you into a feat chain if you don't want your initial investment wasted.


So, what feats does everyone else feel are underrated?

Combat Vigor is a nonmagical source of essentially all-day fast healing. It gets flak because of the BAB prereq delaying it for quite some time, because magical healing is cheap (even if it's finite, you can still get plenty), and because there are some sources of all-day healing that are better and come online sooner (such as DMM Persisted Lesser Vigor, or Troll-blooded). Being the worst of the best doesn't make it bad.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Mercurial Strike is crazy good if you're using Iaijutsu Focus, or even just Sneak Attack.

Not broadly applicable, but Scorpion's Grasp can be a hilarious combo piece on the right build, because grappling someone moves you into their space for free. On a normal character, you could maybe activate Skirmish with this, but it really shines on a plus-sized grappler with extra limbs (whether they're polymorphing into a giant octopus, using the Negative LA thread, or just going ham with their build choices). Far from being redundant with Improved Grab, it lets you use the one-limbed grappling rule* to shoot around the battlefield as part of your full attack, collecting as many opponents as you have limbs into one big chaotic ball of violence.


* Grappling also reduces your reach to 0ft. However, you can choose to grapple with just one limb, meaning you don't count as grappled yourself, and so you retain your full reach, ability to move, and Dex to AC. You take a -20 penalty to do this, but this can be halved with Multigrab and eliminated entirely with Greater Multigrab.

[Kurald Galain]

Ki Throw. When you trip an enemy, you get to move him anywhere within your reach; combined with enlarging or any other reach boosters this is an insane amount of at-will battlefield control.

[noce]

I've seen many times people saying Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery are too weak.

Three feats for +3 to hit and +4 damage seems pretty ok to me.
This is especially true for certain builds: for example most barbarian builds require just 1 or 2 barbarian levels, and then you need something full BAB to carry you to the PrC (that may even require weapon focus).

[remetagross]

Nice find for Scorpion's Grasp, PoeticallyPsycho.

I'm a big fan of Ring the Golden Bell. It allows the PC to do something entirely new, and not that easy to duplicate for a mundane character. This is what all feats should do. Besides, it gives excellent roleplaying opportunities, since it's so thematic. I've once used it combined with the Decisive Strike ACF for monks to hit a fleeing character in the back. I could describe with great emphasis how my PC was concentrating (i.e. spending a full-round action), channeling her energy, and then WHAM!

[pabelfly]

I've seen many times people saying Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery are too weak.

Three feats for +3 to hit and +4 damage seems pretty ok to me.
This is especially true for certain builds: for example most barbarian builds require just 1 or 2 barbarian levels, and then you need something full BAB to carry you to the PrC (that may even require weapon focus).

Weapon Focus is great, you land (roughly) 5% more hits than if you don't take it, and Melee Weapon Mastery helps you land over 10% more. They're not the most exciting of feats but consistency is really important.

The +4 to damage is more relevant the more attacks you have. I wouldn't worry about it with a charging build, since most of your damage is from Power Attack, but stuff like volley archer (Ranged Weapon Mastery) or a multiweapon fighter? Yeah, that's going to be really helpful.

[Pugwampy]

So, what feats do you think are underrated?


Headlong Rush . Halforc only . Charge Attack becomes a threat square . If you hit you do double damage .

Keen Scent . Half Orc only . You gain the scent feat .

Infernal Wings . Tiefling . You get batwings and can fly .

Chaste Life . You get 2 more ability points as long as you do not have RP sex .

Nymph Kiss. If you have a relationship with a fey or nymph . All your Charisma rolls are treated as having an extra +2 and a +1 bonus on all saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. Starting with the level when you take this feat, you gain 1 extra skill point per level.

My favorite DM who introduced DND to me brought this Nymph Kiss feat to my attention . I had a Male nymph marry his female gnome sorceress character . Dictated a vegan diet and she was part of a Harem . :smallsmile


Flying Kick , When fighting unarmed and using the charge action, you deal an extra 1d12 points of damage with your unarmed attack.

[pabelfly]

Chaste Life . You get 2 more ability points as long as you do not have RP sex

This one sounds pretty interesting, where can I find this feat?

[Pugwampy]

This one sounds pretty interesting, where can I find this feat?


Book of Erotic Fantasy .

I always call it the Red Sonja feat . She is invincible in battle as long as she remains a virgin .

[Metastachydium]

Maybe most games just don't bother with encumbrance for much of the time, because I think I've only ever seen myself use it, but Natural HeavyweightPH (MORE carrying capacity, packaged in a take it when you're ready, no prerequisites kind of deal). I also don't think we're talking about Guerilla Warrior and Guerilla ScoutHoB often enough.


Nymph's Kiss

I think that's the first time I see that feat and underrated mentioned together. In my experience, most of the flak it gets comes from people trying to take it without the complimentary Nymph creeping into their (back)story.

[Inevitability]

Spring Attack and its follow-up feats catch a lot of flak for the let's say superfluous prereqs, but being able to move+attack+move while avoiding AoOs is actually pretty huge on the right kind of PC. Sure, a basic human with a longsword should just full attack, but anything really fast? Anything reliant on 1/round natural weapons? Incorporeals who are now free to dart into and out of walls? The feat has a lot of great users, you just gotta find them.

[Pugwampy]

I think that's the first time I see that feat and underrated mentioned together. In my experience, most of the flak it gets comes from people trying to take it without the complimentary Nymph creeping into their (back)story.


Backstory is a cop out . You want that super feat you deal with cringy fairy stuff in your present adventure .

[H_H_F_F]

Book of Erotic Fantasy .

I think that it's less that Chaste Life is underrated, and more that it doesn't get talked about because it's third party.

The 1st party equivalent, vow of chastity, is not great.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Backstory is a cop out . You want that super feat you deal with cringy fairy stuff in your present adventure .Hey, I can be a pen pal to a satyr if I want to be. Quill pal, whatever. Maybe owl pal, depending on how mail is done over distance in a magic world.

[Darg]

Spring Attack and its follow-up feats catch a lot of flak for the let's say superfluous prereqs, but being able to move+attack+move while avoiding AoOs is actually pretty huge on the right kind of PC. Sure, a basic human with a longsword should just full attack, but anything really fast? Anything reliant on 1/round natural weapons? Incorporeals who are now free to dart into and out of walls? The feat has a lot of great users, you just gotta find them.

Was going to mention this one. It makes moving through enemies much easier than without and allows you to enter larger creatures' threatened areas without provoking. It's also useful in forcing enemies into making only standard attacks while your ranged attackers full attack them to death. Personally, I think the prerequisites are underrated too because they facilitate spring attack to be less risky moving through more than one creature's threatened area (each point of AC is more valuable than the last so +4 or 5 can be quite significant when your job is to move between or behind enemies.)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's a possibility that Spring Attack and Shot on the Run are actually a bit better than anyone gives them credit for. The feats say that whenever you make an attack action, you can also move. They say nothing about other actions, just that when you perform an attack action, you can also move. That means that the moving is part of the attack action. That means it's (usually) a standard action to move/attack/move, which leaves the Springer/Shotter a move action left for the round. Which means you can move/Attack/move + Move Action or Move Action + move/Attack/move. Of course, if you can make an attack action as a swift or immediate, that gives you a full round's worth of action in addition.

So Spring Attack and Shot on the Run as most people seem to play them are generally not very good for myriad reasons, but as an attack action, they might actually be a bit more usable.

Am I wrong about this?

[Troacctid]

There's a possibility that Spring Attack (and Shot on the Run) are actually a bit better than anyone gives it (them) credit for. The feats say that whenever you make an attack action, you can also move. It says nothing about other actions, just that when you perform an attack action, you can also move. That means that the moving is part of the attack action. That means it's (usually) a standard action to move/attack/move, which leaves the Spring Attacker (etc) a move action left for the round. Which means you can move/Spring Attack/move + move action or move action + move/Spring Attack/move. Of course, if you can make an attack action as a swift or immediate, that gives you a full round's worth of action in addition.

So Spring Attack as most people seem to play it is generally not very good for myriad reasons, but as an attack action, it might actually be a bit more usable.

Am I wrong about this?
It's just a 3.0 relic, like how Dodge says "action" instead of "turn". The wording you're looking for is more like what's used in one of my picks for an underrated feat: Mobile Spellcasting, which is Spring Attack, but for casters, and without the prereqs, and you get an extra move instead of just splitting up your existing move.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's just a 3.0 relic, like how Dodge says "action" instead of "turn".But Spring Attack and Shot on the Run don't say "as a full-round action," but instead say "when you take an attack action." An attack action is a standard action unless you have some other way to make an attack action as a swift or immediate (or as a move, I guess). So when you take an attack action, regardless of whatever else you do in the round, those two feats allow you to move/attack/move as an attack action. You use your move action to reload your crossbow, then take an attack action? It triggers Shot on the Run, allowing you to move/attack/move because you took an attack action.

[Troacctid]

But Spring Attack and Shot on the Run don't say "as a full-round action," but instead say "when you take an attack action." An attack action is a standard action unless you have some other way to make an attack action as a swift or immediate (or as a move, I guess). So when you take an attack action, regardless of whatever else you do in the round, those two feats allow you to move/attack/move as an attack action. You use your move action to reload your crossbow, then take an attack action? It triggers Shot on the Run, allowing you to move/attack/move because you took an attack action.
The general rule in question: "A standard action allows a character to do something and move that character's indicated speed during a combat round. A character can move before or after performing the activity of the action."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The general rule in question: "A standard action allows a character to do something and move that character's indicated speed during a combat round. A character can move before or after performing the activity of the action."Specific overrides general. I'm pretty sure you know this.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, so, normally, a standard action allows you to move before or after taking the action. Spring Attack allows you to move before and after. That's what's happening there.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah, so, normally, a standard action allows you to move before or after taking the action. Spring Attack allows you to move before and after. That's what's happening there.When you use an attack action, yes. And if you've already taken a move action? You still get to move/attack/move. Which means it's part of the attack action. That's not noted as an exception. Unless you can find in the SRD where it says you have to use a full-round action or it mentions anything about using a move action? Because I don't see either one.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack


Spring Attack [General]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

Special: A fighter may select Spring Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[Chronos]

Quoth AvatarVecna:

Combat Vigor is a nonmagical source of essentially all-day fast healing.
No, the problem is that it's not all day. It lasts for 10 rounds, plus one per combat form feat. Even if you have Combat Vigor and its feat tax Combat Focus, and one other combat form feat, it's only giving you 48 HP per combat, max. By the time you get the feat, you could easily be taking that much in a single hit. I'd much rather take Draconic Aura: Vigor, which really does last all day, doesn't have a feat tax, and affects the whole party (though of course it has its own limitation, of only bringing you up to half). Or if you have two feats to spare, that plus Shape Soulmeld: Lifebond Vestments, which will still get you up to half, but now you can bring all the rest of your party to full once per hour.

[AvatarVecna]

No, the problem is that it's not all day. It lasts for 10 rounds, plus one per combat form feat. Even if you have Combat Vigor and its feat tax Combat Focus, and one other combat form feat, it's only giving you 48 HP per combat, max. By the time you get the feat, you could easily be taking that much in a single hit. I'd much rather take Draconic Aura: Vigor, which really does last all day, doesn't have a feat tax, and affects the whole party (though of course it has its own limitation, of only bringing you up to half). Or if you have two feats to spare, that plus Shape Soulmeld: Lifebond Vestments, which will still get you up to half, but now you can bring all the rest of your party to full once per hour.

Per use. 10+ rounds per use. I know you're not stupid, so stop pretending you think Combat focus is a 1/day thing. Combat Vigor can be exploited very simply through a bag of rats, picking g fights with random tiny animals in the world, or just punching an ally for 1 nonlethal damage.

Edit: it's not great Healing in combat but there's three levels of fast healing that matter: zero, one, and "enough". Zero matters cuz it means you need other sources of Healing. Fast Healing 1 means you can recover all HP in between combats, and "enough" is where the per round Healing makes a significant difference in combat. Basically nothing in the game is "enough".

Again, being the worst of the fast Healing options doesn't make it bad. Quit pretending.

[pabelfly]

Spring Attack is a really weird spot, optimization-wise. There's a brief period of time where it's very good (when you have 4 or 5 BAB) but by the time you have 6 BAB and reach your second attack per round, you want to have a way of doing moving and doing full attack action each round.

I imagine it's pretty good in E6 though, when you might well have a character with only 5 BAB and a bunch of extra feats.

[Morphic tide]

On a similar note to the Abyssal Heritor feats, there's the [Aberrant] feats from Lords of Madness, which give hard PP instead of tag-specific spell recovery. Not nearly as good at this as the e6 classic Psionic Body+Psionic Talent and does not have a bonus feat swapper like Embrace the Dark Chaos, but it still makes for a neat "bulk numbers" extension.

The full set of 18 Aberrant feats gives you +18 PP, +9 to Will saves vs. Mind Affecting, +20 Spot, +90 ft. Darkvision, +36 HP, +9 Natural Armor, +4 on Grapple checks, +3 Search, +4 Escape Artist, +5 Climb, +4 Balance, +12 Swim, two base 1d4 damage secondary Tentacles, +5 ft. Reach, +5 on Fortitude saves vs. Ingested poisons and diseases from ingested substances, a Fly speed equal to half your land speed (though bounded by Constitution), Cold Resistance 10, immunity to fatigue and altitude sickness, a Swim speed equal to half your land speed, the ability to take 10 on any Swim check, Run while swimming, breathing both water and air, and saving the best for last Wild Shape into Aberrations.

Sure, more than ten times the PP from 17 Psionic Talents is generally better and the amount of feats needed is nuts, but for extreme endurance crushes it's really good.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I know about Aberration Blood, Aberration Wild Shape, Bestial Hide, Deepspawn, Durable Form, Inhuman Reach, Inhuman Vision, Scavenging Gullet, Starspawn, Warped Mind, and Waterspawn. What other [Aberrant] feats are there, and where are they?

[edit] There's also Mourning Mutate, in Dragon#359.

[Morphic tide]

I know about Aberration Blood, Aberration Wild Shape, Bestial Hide, Deepspawn, Durable Form, Inhuman Reach, Inhuman Vision, Scavenging Gullet, Starspawn, Warped Mind, and Waterspawn. What other [Aberrant] feats are there, and where are they?

[edit] There's also Mourning Mutate, in Dragon#359.
You can take Aberration Blood seven times to get all seven benefits and pad your [Aberrant] feat count, thus 18 feats taken.

[Pugwampy]

Hey, I can be a pen pal to a satyr if I want to be. Quill pal, whatever. Maybe owl pal, depending on how mail is done over distance in a magic world.

Nope , you gotta shrink yourself to tiny size , move into Tiny Town and date Tinkerbell afterwards doing battle with a Tick on top of the head of the Fairy Queen Sparkle Bottom .

[Chronos]

Quoth AvatarVecna:

Per use. 10+ rounds per use.
Yes, I know that. And at most one use per combat. That was what I was calculating on. Every combat, you enter combat focus, and it lasts 10+ rounds after that, for a total of 48 HP regained per combat. If you have one combat in a day, you gain 48 HP that day. If you have three combats, you gain 144 HP.

Combat Vigor can be exploited very simply through a bag of rats, picking g fights with random tiny animals in the world, or just punching an ally for 1 nonlethal damage.
None of those is a combat.

[Asmotherion]

Most of the Reserve Feats. Especially at low levels, you get an At-Will SLA for almost free. That means, you can keep being relevant to the fight, even if you're out of spell slots (as long as you have, well, reserved, an appropriate spell slot).

Fiery Burst is insane. Starts as 2d6 fire damage AoE (small AoE, but still). At level 3 when it comes online (without cheezing Precautious Apprentice at level 1), 2d6 AoE damage is insanelly good. I have to wonder why it's not out there with the best feats in the game (although I understand that at high level it becomes irrelevant, most of your campaign will be played before hitting those levels).

[Yogibear41]

I agree fiery burst is great at low levels. I also like touch of healing for infinite healing up to 1/2 hp. I am a pretty big fan of steadfast determination and font of life too. Indomitable Soul is also pretty cool.

[Chronos]

Only problem with Steadfast Determination is that it has a nearly-useless feat as a prerequisite. It's quite good for one feat, but probably not good enough for two feats.

What are Font of Life and Indomitable Soul, again?

[Mordaedil]

When you use an attack action, yes. And if you've already taken a move action? You still get to move/attack/move. Which means it's part of the attack action. That's not noted as an exception. Unless you can find in the SRD where it says you have to use a full-round action or it mentions anything about using a move action? Because I don't see either one.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack

I always find myself wondering with Spring Attack, can you actively use it while you are in melee with someone? The "must move 5 feet before" says to me that you have to be not threatened, then move 5 feet, before you can attack and no longer provoke AoO.

[pabelfly]

Only problem with Steadfast Determination is that it has a nearly-useless feat as a prerequisite. It's quite good for one feat, but probably not good enough for two feats.

What are Font of Life and Indomitable Soul, again?

There are a few ways you get Endurance as a feat. Some Orcs and half-Orcs get it, and Ranger 3 gets it too. If you have it already, Steadfast Determination is pretty much a no-brainer.

[Yogibear41]

Font of life gives you a fort save to immediately negate things that give negative levels. Instead of you getting the level drain then having to save 24 hours later. Indomitable soul let's you roll will saves vs mind affecting twice and take the better roll. Both are inferior to deathward and mindblank, but being feats they always work and you can take them at low level.

[Temotei]

Quick Reconnoiter is one of those feats I'd love to take on more characters but it's hard to fit into a build.

Defensive Throw is cool and I don't see it used a whole lot.

[Forrestfire]

This is less "underrated" and more "unknown," but I rarely see people talk about the excellent Windup line of feats from Dragon Magazine #304. Windup itself is an okayish Power Attack with thrown weapons (1:1 ratio), but its followup feats, Rout and Bowl Over, give you free bull rushes and trips respectively on every thrown attack. I love the idea of playing a thrower who knocks people into walls with dungeoncrasher repeatedly or does lockdown stuff at range. Feat-heavy, but neat.

The Mastery of Mockery feat is another obscure one I like. It's in Dragon Magazine #333 and lets you do a hard taunt effect with a Perform (comedy), forcing a target to "attack you whenever able, ignoring all other targets." Absolutely phenomenal, and a fun way to play the oft-struggling tank role in 3.5.

As for actually-'underrated', the Draconic Claw feat (CArc p. 77) is probably my favorite feat in the game. It gives you a claw attack as a swift action in any round you cast a standard action spell, which means if you combine it with snap kick, you can do some crazy fighting game-esque combos in your turn. Cast a touch spell, deliver it via unarmed strike, Snap Kick followup, then swift claw and another Snap Kick? Even a non-touch spell being followed up by two melee attacks is pretty nice, and a remarkably interesting gish strategy.

Also, I suppose, Improved Familiar? Most players tend to be pretty down on familiars in general, but I quite like them (enough that I wrote a large section on them in a guide recently (https://hexdrake.support/ranger_handbook/#c5-top)). A lot of players tend to view familiars as a forgettable or unwelcome addition to a character's kit, but things like swarm familiars, lantern archons, and even mephits make for great minions, bringing fantastic utility.

[Chronos]

OK, Font of Life is highly situational based on the enemies you're facing, but yeah, in an undead-heavy campaign, say, that'd be great.

Forrestfire, I'd go further and say that familiars in general are underrated. Even just a normal, unimproved one. Just the fact that their skills, BAB, and HP are based on yours already makes them quite useful. It's just unfortunate that the two default familiar-users are the two classes with the worst skills, BAB, and HP. But the Find Familiar feat is amazing, on a factotum, or beguiler, or bard, or duskblade.

Similarly for psicrystals, except that they're even slightly better than familiars, and the feat is even easier to qualify for.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Draconic Claw is weird. You gain claws but can only make a claw attack. Is the one claw attack you're allowed to make only doable as the swift action mentioned in the feat? I mean, that's still potentially good, but it's weird that you can only make one claw attack despite having a least two claws for most characters (and possibly more, depending on how many and what types of limbs you have). And what happens if you have access to multiple swift actions in a round? Are you still only limited to one claw attack, or can use make multiples via multiple swift actions? How does this work if you already have claws that deal more or less damage? What happens if you don't have any limbs, like an awakened snake or a psicrystal?

[Darg]

But Spring Attack and Shot on the Run don't say "as a full-round action," but instead say "when you take an attack action." An attack action is a standard action unless you have some other way to make an attack action as a swift or immediate (or as a move, I guess). So when you take an attack action, regardless of whatever else you do in the round, those two feats allow you to move/attack/move as an attack action. You use your move action to reload your crossbow, then take an attack action? It triggers Shot on the Run, allowing you to move/attack/move because you took an attack action.

Spring attack and shot on the run were updated in later printings of the PHB to be basically a full-round action. It's just in a really weird spot because the SRD uses the early version of the wording (so does my PHB) that's just a standard. Unfortunately, or fortunately, the writer for the mobile spellcasting feat didn't get the memo and explicitly allows you to move twice in a round. Honestly, it's only fair for the other two feats to do the same. It's not exactly the most OP feat either way.


Yeah, so, normally, a standard action allows you to move before or after taking the action. Spring Attack allows you to move before and after. That's what's happening there.

The problem here is that the system changed so the meaning of the words changed. By RAW, the feat is a special attack action, which is a single standard. RAI, it's quite obvious what the intended outcome was once you realize they changed it in later printings. That said, it's quite obvious it wasn't a change everyone was one mind about considering how mobile spellcasting allows you to move twice. Someone thought the melee/ranged versions allowed you to move twice on that team.


I always find myself wondering with Spring Attack, can you actively use it while you are in melee with someone? The "must move 5 feet before" says to me that you have to be not threatened, then move 5 feet, before you can attack and no longer provoke AoO.

You don't provoke for the entire action. It's best if you read rules for the same thing as to not conflict with itself and not retroactively change something unless it explicitly mentions it does so. The general rule for the feat is that you simply don't provoke vs your target. Thus requirement can then be understood as the intent and obligation of the feat's use, not as prerequisites that must be fulfilled before you can benefit.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unfortunately, they didn't update it via errata for the PHB, and errata you have to pay for isn't actually errata, because it's not something many (or even most) people will have. And since they didn't update it in errata, it's not actually errata, and thus it stays the same unless your group has (and uses) the other printings.

So, yeah. Doesn't count. Certainly not for any group I've been in.

[Darg]

Unfortunately, they didn't update it via errata for the PHB, and errata you have to pay for isn't actually errata, because it's not something many (or even most) people will have. And since they didn't update it in errata, it's not actually errata, and thus it stays the same unless your group has (and uses) the other printings.

So, yeah. Doesn't count. Certainly not for any group I've been in.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree. It's the same way for some of the nerfs the MiC/SpC brings. If you don't have them or don't use them then it doesn't matter what they say.

[Metastachydium]

Backstory is a cop out . You want that super feat you deal with cringy fairy stuff in your present adventure .

Hells, yeah!


I think that it's less that Chaste Life is underrated, and more that it doesn't get talked about because it's third party.

…and form that third party book too, to make things worse. But yeah, 3rd party could as well only be a thing for PF1 on these boards in general.


The 1st party equivalent, vow of chastity, is not great.

Which is just as well, I must add. Big mechanical benefits granted for something on the fluff side that's unlikely to ever come up in polite gaming would be an odd design. To give a deliberately absurd parallel, Mute is an intersting and flavourful flaw with mechanical implications. Somewhat Anxious about Selling Children into Slavery… Isn't, normally.

[Troacctid]

Unfortunately, they didn't update it via errata for the PHB, and errata you have to pay for isn't actually errata, because it's not something many (or even most) people will have. And since they didn't update it in errata, it's not actually errata, and thus it stays the same unless your group has (and uses) the other printings.

So, yeah. Doesn't count. Certainly not for any group I've been in.
It's not a functional change, just a clarification. The functionality of the feat has remained the same since the 3.0 PHB.

[Darg]

It's not a functional change, just a clarification. The functionality of the feat has remained the same since the 3.0 PHB.

That's your interpretation. The RAW says otherwise.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's your interpretation. The RAW says otherwise.Agreed. The feat says you can "move/attack/move whenever you use an attack action." Says nothing at all about move actions or full-round actions. You make an attack action? You get to move before and after, irrespective of your other actions during the turn. Including moving.

[Forrestfire]

Draconic Claw is weird. You gain claws but can only make a claw attack. Is the one claw attack you're allowed to make only doable as the swift action mentioned in the feat? I mean, that's still potentially good, but it's weird that you can only make one claw attack despite having a least two claws for most characters (and possibly more, depending on how many and what types of limbs you have). And what happens if you have access to multiple swift actions in a round? Are you still only limited to one claw attack, or can use make multiples via multiple swift actions? How does this work if you already have claws that deal more or less damage? What happens if you don't have any limbs, like an awakened snake or a psicrystal?

The feat has two components. The first one is giving you a pair of claw natural weapons, which work normally as natural weapons. The second is that you can make a single claw attack as a swift action in any round you cast a standard action spell. They're two separate parts of the feat.

The Complete Arcane variant is just really janky in its wording. Races of the Dragon updated it to clarify:


You gain a claw attack. You can make a natural attack with two claws, dealing damage based on your size as if you were truly a dragon (Small 1d4, Medium 1d6, Large 1d8). In any round when you cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action, you can make a single claw attack at your full attack bonus as a swift action (see page 122) against an opponent you threaten.

[Chronos]

Quoth Metastachydium:

…and form that third party book too, to make things worse.
But it's by respected author Gwendolyn Kestrel! Who brought us such balanced and well-regarded first-party books as Serpent Kingdoms! Surely, anything she wrote would work well in the game and not cause any problems, right?

[Metastachydium]

But it's by respected author Gwendolyn Kestrel! Who brought us such balanced and well-regarded first-party books as Serpent Kingdoms! Surely, anything she wrote would work well in the game and not cause any problems, right?

Heh. Let's hand our some credit ehere it's due, though. She had a hand in MM3 too, among other things.

[remetagross]

Yeah, the reserve feats are nifty, especially at low levels.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah, the reserve feats are nifty, especially at low levels.Fun fact: Most people insist that Touch of Healing can only heal targets up to 1/2 hp. This is untrue. You can heal them up to 1/2, then use it again for an additional 3 hp per level of the highest [Healing] spell you've got. Which, depending on the target and the spell, could nearly get them to full.

[Prime32]

I know about Aberration Blood, Aberration Wild Shape, Bestial Hide, Deepspawn, Durable Form, Inhuman Reach, Inhuman Vision, Scavenging Gullet, Starspawn, Warped Mind, and Waterspawn. What other [Aberrant] feats are there, and where are they?

[edit] There's also Mourning Mutate, in Dragon#359.

Aberrant Dragonmark, according to a web article. (https://web.archive.org/web/20120723103653/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebee/20050704a) There's also an argument to be made for feats with Aberrant Dragonmark as a prerequisite.

Both Mourning Mutate and Aberrant Dragonmark can sub for Aberrant Blood as the gateway feat. Mourning Mutate has the advantage zero prereqs (Aberrant Blood requires you to be Humanoid), while Aberrant Dragonmark has tighter prereqs (must be from a dragonmarked race, you lose it if you become undead, etc.) but opens entirely new options that can be further built on.

EDIT: Feats with Aberrant Dragonmark as a prereq:
Aberrant Dragonmark Gift (use Least power 3/day)
Aberrant Dragonmark Mystery (expend use of mark to boost CL/ML by 1)
Aberrant Dragonmark Vigor (expend use of mark as immediate action to cast a false life like effect)
Lesser Aberrant Dragonmark (+3 CL for mark, new stronger mark power, use least power +1/day)
Greater Aberrant Dragonmark (+2 CL for mark, new stronger mark power, use least + lesser powers +1/day)
Mark of Madness (Quickened lesser confusion 3/day)
Mark of Vengeance (each melee attack against a creature with a true dragonmark also absorbs 1d6 hp)
Mark of Vermin (speak with vermin 1/day; druid abilities affect vermin)
Ward of Khyber (SR against true dragonmarks, can make your mark temporarily invisible)
Winter's Mark (1/day Death Touch similar to the Death domain power)

And that's not counting feats which you can qualify for with either a true or aberrant mark.

[Thunder999]

On a similar note to the Abyssal Heritor feats, there's the [Aberrant] feats from Lords of Madness, which give hard PP instead of tag-specific spell recovery. Not nearly as good at this as the e6 classic Psionic Body+Psionic Talent and does not have a bonus feat swapper like Embrace the Dark Chaos, but it still makes for a neat "bulk numbers" extension.

The full set of 18 Aberrant feats gives you +18 PP, +9 to Will saves vs. Mind Affecting, +20 Spot, +90 ft. Darkvision, +36 HP, +9 Natural Armor, +4 on Grapple checks, +3 Search, +4 Escape Artist, +5 Climb, +4 Balance, +12 Swim, two base 1d4 damage secondary Tentacles, +5 ft. Reach, +5 on Fortitude saves vs. Ingested poisons and diseases from ingested substances, a Fly speed equal to half your land speed (though bounded by Constitution), Cold Resistance 10, immunity to fatigue and altitude sickness, a Swim speed equal to half your land speed, the ability to take 10 on any Swim check, Run while swimming, breathing both water and air, and saving the best for last Wild Shape into Aberrations.

Sure, more than ten times the PP from 17 Psionic Talents is generally better and the amount of feats needed is nuts, but for extreme endurance crushes it's really good.

Those bonuses are a lot less impressive when you realise you'd need to be a level 48 character to have them.

[Morphic tide]

Those bonuses are a lot less impressive when you realise you'd need to be a level 48 character to have them.
It's 51 natively, with -3 for each Bonus Feat you can get. It's actually surprisingly straightforward to get quite a lot of open-ended Bonus Feats. You can actually manage Human Paragon 2/Martyred Champion of Ilmater 8/Legacy Champion 10 to net eight feats while leaving out Wild Shape, so you'd fill out the "main" set at level 24. An awful character unless you have an impressively degenerate Weapon of Legacy, but progresses arbitrary feat selections rapidly.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's also this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?400840-List-of-Feat-Granting-Items-Locations-Grafts) combined with the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle.

[Chronos]

Eh, if you allow the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle, then you can already get infinite feats, without even needing the feat-granting locations or items. Take Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment to gain the granted power of the War domain. That granted power is two bonus feats. Shuffle those two bonus feats into whatever, then change Planar Touchstone to something else and back.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Eh, if you allow the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle, then you can already get infinite feats, without even needing the feat-granting locations or items. Take Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment to gain the granted power of the War domain. That granted power is two bonus feats. Shuffle those two bonus feats into whatever, then change Planar Touchstone to something else and back.If you lose the feat, you then lose the benefits of that feat. So if you gain a feat that grants two feats, then lose the first feat, you then lose the second two feats.

[Metastachydium]

Call me old-fashioned, but I'm getting increasingly happy with my decision not to bother ever touching (on planes with stones or otherwise) Dark Chaos Shuffle, not even for as long as it'd take to fully grasp how it works.

[Morphic tide]

It can be helpful to use as intended for stacking up [Abyssal Heritor] feats. The full set of 13 gives 6 refreshes of [Chaotic] spells, +6 Profane bonus to Unarmed Strikes and Natural Attacks, DR 13/Lawful, +6 Natural Armor, 13 Sneak Attack rerolls, +13 to each of Spot, Search, Knowledge (The Planes), Spellcraft, Bardic Knowledge, and Perform or Intimidate, 13 floating +1 Insight bonuses to AC, Attack rolls, saving throws, or skills, 13 absorbed negative levels, +3d6 damage vs. Lawful enemies, and +39 to Jump checks.

[Chronos]

Quoth MaxiDuRaritry:

If you lose the feat, you then lose the benefits of that feat. So if you gain a feat that grants two feats, then lose the first feat, you then lose the second two feats.
Yes, but you've already lost those feats. If you lose the War Domain granted ability, then you lose weapon focus and weapon specialization. But you don't have those any more anyway. It's stupid RAW, that begs for a houserule, but it's RAW.

Personally, I'd rule that Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos can only replace a feat with another feat you could have chosen instead of it. For a feat that you got from ordinary leveling-up, you could have chosen any feat, so sure, go nuts. For a feat that you got from fighter levels, you can only replace it with another fighter bonus feat (are any of the Abyssal Heritor feats fighter bonus feats?). For a feat that you got as a bonus feat that gave you that specific feat by name, you never got to choose anything, so you can't trade it in for anything.

[Darg]

Yes, but you've already lost those feats. If you lose the War Domain granted ability, then you lose weapon focus and weapon specialization. But you don't have those any more anyway. It's stupid RAW, that begs for a houserule, but it's RAW.

War Domain doesn't say that it grants you the feats themselves just like how classes don't grant you proficiency feats to the types of weapons and armor you can use.