Thoughts on order of presentation for character creation (class/level)

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm (slowly) working on a 5e D&D offshoot. Something that got brought up once was that the order I presented character creation was confusing, and I'd like more broad-based feedback because I can see multiple sides and am not sure what makes most sense to other people.

Notes:
* This is purely a presentation order (or organization) issue, not a content issue.
* Class/level system and that's not going to change.
* Parts of character creation are (in no particular order
-- Picking a class
-- Picking a lineage, fka race, only gives physiological traits
-- Picking a culture: Describes the environment in which you were raised (specific to a nation or more generic). Gives some learned traits. So you could be a dwarf (lineage) raised among a maritime culture, so you'd have dwarven physiological traits but the maritime learned traits. Note that languages come from culture, not lineage, so you can very much be (e.g.) a dwarf who doesn't speak dwarven.
-- Picking a background (this is like the 5e one, talking about your particular life before adventuring)
-- Filling in all the numbers, including ability score generation.

Current Order
My thought was to pick the biggest thing first (ie class), then fill in the details.
1. Pick a class.
2. Pick a lineage.
3. Pick a culture.
4. Pick or design a background. Including deciding your motivations for adventuring.
5. Assign ability scores.
6. Pick starting gear from class.
7. Calculate dependent values. This is HP, AC, attack bonuses, saving throw modifiers, saving throw DCs, Stamina, Aether, etc.

Proposal A
Re-order things into "character chronological" order:
1a. Pick a lineage
2a. Pick a culture
3a. Assign ability scores
4a. Pick a background
5a. Pick a class
6a. Pick starting gear
7a. Calculate dependent values.

Other options?
I think the only things that have a fixed order are that you can't pick starting gear until you've picked a class (since it comes as a package with choices from your class) and you can't calculate dependent values until everything else is picked. So steps 6 and 7 kinda have to stay the last ones. But in principle, all other options are re-orderable. Although assigning ability scores might want to wait until you've picked lineage and culture, since each one gives some (often flexible) ability score bonuses. Backgrounds and classes don't give those bonuses at level 1, so they can flow afterward.

Chapter Order
The above current order is how it's presented in the Character Creation chapter, which contains sections for the pieces. Those are currently in the following order (which is probably sub-optimal) with hyper-links (web and pdf):
1. General description (including ability scores and above description)
2. Backgrounds
3. Lineages
4. Cultures
5. Classes

Equipment is referenced in the class descriptions but actually presented after the class section.

[Witty Username]

Baldur's gate got me thinking about this one,
In 3, ability scores are the last step and in 1&2 they are right after class selection (since your class sets minimum values for scores in AD&D).
It has got me thinking that may be a better way to do it. As unless you are rolling, the scores you want will be determined by how it interacts with your class.
So shifting scores to follow class or even things like skills may be a good idea.

[gbaji]

While I often like to start with "where is my character from, and thus what's available to play from there", I do think that from a "character creation rules" point of view, starting with the class is likelly going to flow better for most players actually using the system.

Most people start with what sort of abilities they want their character to have (class). Then fill in what race, where they are from, etc. And at least from a rules perspective, this probably makes a lot of sense. I suppose it also depends on how connected concepts like race and class are. But I still suspect that most players are going to start with what they want their character to be able to do, and then pick other things after that point that match up with that. If I want to be an archer, and the best race to be as an archer happens to be "elf", then I might decide I'm an elven archer. And if elves come from one of three areas of the world, then I'm picking one of those three as my background starting location. One choice leads us to the next.

Doing things in a different order might result in the player making choices about race and starting location and then not being happy with the class choices available, and then having to back up the decision chain a few steps and take a different route. Again though, it really depends on how much one choice actually affects the options available for future choices.

[ngilop]

I am going off the assumption that lineage is your character's race and that your race lineage, culture and background all adjust your ability scores potentially if not.. then I apologize.


I think going
Ability Scores
Lineage
Culture
Class
Background
Gear
Derived values


My thought process about this is that one's lineage and culture isn't going to differentiate one as much as your class and background will. And each successive choice further individualizes your character.

I.E. a Bwapenese from Pington who is a fighter who grew up in a family of turnip farmers is going to have a lot of the same stuff as a Bwapenese Fighter from Pington who grew up in a merchant family. That background is what is going to see the big difference between the two. and To me is a logical order in how things apply to somebody.

[Amnestic]

I find chronological order charming conceptually, but realistically when I'm building a character in 5e myself I'll end up using what you've currently got in your Current Order - class, lineage, background, scores, gear.

This is dependant on scores being 'pregenerated' or set - so point buy or from an existing array. If I were rolling for ability scores, either in order or rearrange as will, then it'd shift slightly, but point buy or array has been the standard for 99% of the games I'm in/run.

I will say that if you're a new player picking it up for the first time, then following chronologically is likelier easier to grasp since it has a better flow to it. Current Order is very 'mechanics' focused (which works for those - like me - who're already familiar with 5e and already have a grasp of what they're after). Chronological feels like it has more of a 'narrative' focus in its layout.

[icefractal]

In terms of new players, I could see either order being better, because I could see both paths from concept to details as likely:
A) "I want to be an elf who's a former pirate - ok, now what class works with that?"
B) "I want to be a swashbuckling duelist type ... Rogue seems like the best fit. Now what lineage and background would complement that?"

But if I had to pick one, and this is for a D&D-like game, then I'd go class-first, because class has the largest impact on play-style, and is therefore the best foundation to give context to other choices.

[KorvinStarmast]

1. Who are you? (Race lineage culture)
2. What do you want to become? Class
3. What are you doing now, or, what were you doing right before you begin to go out on adventures? (Background)

(The above is how I created both Dil and Vijil. With Yonas, I wanted for sure to be a Rune Knight.
I was for a time considering Goliath/jazu, but the culture options you offered for the Nocthians in the end swayed me to choose vHuman, and it fit what Marchwardens (the custom Background) were all about).

The order of each isn't important, and you could make all three of them "Step 1" ... but if you want character creation to be organic to the setting, I'd go in that order.
I have created characters with all of those being considered either first, second or third and it all works out the same in the end. My Gloom Stalker in ToA began conceptually as a spy/criminal, then human, and then Ranger as I tried to figure out where he was from in the FR and why he was even in Chult to start with.

4. Determine ability scores: point buy or roll. Add racials / culturals / lineages as appropriate)
5. Assign stat scores.
6. Gear last.
7. Spells, if any, after comes after 6.

Alternately:
Make number 4 step 0, and then proceed on.

[Darth Credence]

When helping a new player recently, the order that it goes on dndbeyond became a problem. Name, great.

Then race - OK, that's fine, but it has ability scores and skills associated with it. We're doing point buy. Do you want to go with the standard attribute bonuses for the race? Switch to a +2/+1? or a +1/+1/+1? We'll stick a pin in that until we know what the stats are. What about skills? Do I want the base one, or do I want a different one? What if the base is the same as what I get from the background I want? Well, stick a pin in it, and we'll come back.

Next is class. Great, no problem. Wait, am I qualified for this? Do I need better stats to do this? I haven't rolled yet, so maybe I can't be a MAD class and need to stick to SAD. Who knows? Let me put down what I intend to have at this point, and we can revisit it later. And more proficiencies, great! Do I choose now, or see what the background provides before picking?

Now attributes. Hey! A bit of fun in this! Let's roll some dice. And with the dice rolled, I now know that the class I picked is fine, so I'll stick with that. I can also see that the attribute bonuses from the race are not ideal, and I would like to go to a +1/+1/+1 to round some stats up. So I'll go back to race and class and fix those things.

Next, background. Now I get some specific proficiencies for that. And it's good, because I would have picked one of those earlier and one of them would have been granted by my race. So, the race will need to use the optional rule to swap out the proficiency for something else, and I'll pick differently for my class proficiencies. OK, that's done.

Finally, equipment. Right where it should be.

So, for me, that order is bad. Looking at it, I cannot see why one wouldn't start with stats, then background, race, class, and gear. The statement in the OP of putting abilities after lineage/culture, since those provide stat bonuses, seems backward to me, unless there is only a standard array as a choice. If there is the possibility of different scores based on rolling, I would want to know what I have to work with before deciding on something that would change those numbers.

[KorvinStarmast]

When helping a new player recently, the order that it goes on dndbeyond became a problem. That's a DDB problem, one of many, but I think it was a good idea to point out in terms of what that does for a new player.

Ability scores first was how we did it back in the auld days ... (so my step 4 alternate to step 0 probably fits your DDB example ....)

[LibraryOgre]

My preference leans more towards "Which choices will impact or shape other choices the most"?

Since 5e is a touchstone, I think 5e got Class and Background in the wrong order, because your background gives you some immutable information (skills), while your class gives you some variable ones (skills). So, for 5e, it works better for me that your background comes first, and then your class, because you pick your background and get skills, then choose your class and choose skills around what you already know.

Based on that principle, I think the ideal order of presentation is going to be modified chronlogical... lineage, culture (which might determine which backgrounds you have available), background, class, then attributes.

[icefractal]

Whether ability scores should be first depends on if they're rolled or not, IMO.

When using point-buy, I generally pick concept, then class, then think about feats (because some have ability requirements), then choose ability scores based on all that. Because nothing unexpected is going to happen at the "ability scores" step.

[Pex]

Whether ability scores should be first depends on if they're rolled or not, IMO.

When using point-buy, I generally pick concept, then class, then think about feats (because some have ability requirements), then choose ability scores based on all that. Because nothing unexpected is going to happen at the "ability scores" step.

Ability scores are key. How they're generated is a big deal. Going by D&D, it's not enjoyable in my opinion to create a cleric only to find at the end of character creation you only have a 12 WI to start. Race is a significant factor due to racial ability score bonuses. Not that you have to match your racial ability to class prime, but we know in practice players tend to do so hence the now floating ability score trend. If you divorce ability score bonuses from race you alleviate that issue. Whatever the high value you will accept at character creation for an ability score, it's not unreasonable for a player to want that value in the score his class values most. Once that is settled to the player's satisfaction the order of everything else is matter of personal taste. The reality of a game is the math matters, and it's not wrong for a player to be concerned about it along with all the fluff of character story he also cares about.

[PhoenixPhyre]

For the record, the two supported methods[0] for ability score generation are (before lineage/culture bonuses):

* Standard array (+3, +2, +2, +1, +0, -1)
* Rolled (4d6b3 x6, convert to modifiers and discard scores), with some variants for creating group sets, rerolls, etc.[1]

All of these are in any order.

There are only ability modifiers, not scores (so no even/odd distinction) and lineages give a flat +1 to one score and cultures a +1 to a different one with instructions to pick a different one if the two would overlap.

Thus, it's mostly a matter of "do I have stats for a more MAD class" or not--you'll rarely if ever end up saying "I wanted to play a <class> but don't have the requisite scores..." Basically only if the DM doesn't allow falling back to the standard array (the ultimate fallback if you were using rolled stats to begin with).

[0] Why no point buy? Meh. Two reasons--I didn't want to do the math to do it right (the big reason) and I don't like point buy for personal idiosyncratic reasons.

[1] Group sets are like "each person takes turns rolling 4d6b3 until there are 6 scores, everyone uses those in any order they personally want", rerolls are suggestions on "if the scores are lower than X, allow a reroll", etc. Basically ways to avoid someone getting screwed or having wildly disparate scores across a party.

[gbaji]

Obviously, if you are using point buy or die rolls for stats, that's going to change the order in which you do things. If you're doing point buy, you will likely start with the class you want to be, then pick your race (possibly due to stat adjustments), then stats, then skills, etc, etc... If rolling, you'll start with the rolls, then decide which class this leans you towards, and then pick a race that aligns with that (stat or concept wise).

Also, while the OP said a 5e varient, if we're expanding this to different game systems, it's also of note that some systems may actually have different rolls/base stats for different races, and not just use modifiers. So you might have to pick a race first and then roll/buy stats, and then go from there.

I do tend to think that most players will start with "what kind of character do I want to play?", and then start picking class/race/stats to match that intent. The exact order will vary by system and method, but those three are pretty much always going to be the first things you set IMO. Then you fill in everything else that follows.

[Satinavian]

Yes, if you have to roll, you want to do attributes first.

Otherwise people would e.g. avoid MAD classes due to the risk of not getting the stats for them.

[Kardwill]

Looking at it, I cannot see why one wouldn't start with stats, then background, race, class, and gear.

Only if you do a "roll them in order" (first roll is for strength, second roll for dex, etc...) creation. If you do point-buy, array, or roll-and-choose, you need to know what your character will be before you assign stats, so that your stats fit that concept.
In Fate, that would be choosing your "high concept" and "flaw" aspects. In Runequest3, that would be choosing your species and culture first (since they will change the dices you roll and your choice of job/origins). In D&D-like systems, the concept is largely your class : You need to know the character class you want to be before you put all of your points in strength.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'd like to avoid "generate ability scores but don't assign them" or similar splitting, because in my experience teaching lots of people how to play 5e, assigning ability scores is the most confusing thing. And generally, I'd like to design a system where having absolute top ability scores isn't actually all that important.

I'm currently playing a level 10 bard in a 5e game with ability modifiers of +4 CHA after 2 ASIs and +1 everything else. It works fine. Is is superb? No. Does it work? Yes.

And the order really only matters for new players--experienced players can (and this is stated explicitly) deviate and do it in any order--there's nothing that gates later choices on earlier choices except a desire to optimize.

[KorvinStarmast]

And the order really only matters for new players--experienced players can (and this is stated explicitly) deviate and do it in any order--there's nothing that gates later choices on earlier choices except a desire to optimize. In that case I'll ask if you include a "Quick Build" bit the way that the 5e PHB does. (It's a nice feature of the 5e PHB and the Basic Rules that is very New Player friendly).

If you do that, then assign scores/plusses/minuses after class selection would be my recommended approach.

1. Who are you? (Race - lineage - culture)
2. What do you want to become? Class
3. What are you doing now, or, what were you doing right before you begin to go out on adventures? (Background)
(swap 2 and 3 if desired, it doesn't matter that much...Iam a soldier but I used to be an Entertainer is not particularly different from I was a scholar but I want to become a traveling bard/minstrel ... )
4. Determine ability scores (per your method)
5. Assign stat scores.
6. Gear last.
7. Spells, if any, after comes after 6.

[gbaji]

In Runequest3, that would be choosing your species and culture first (since they will change the dices you roll and your choice of job/origins).

In RQ3, unless you are running in a very very broad/generic setting, species and culture will also determine what cults are available (and whether shamanism or sorcery is available, and which flavors of such are), which is probably the largest single determinant of "what do I want to do" that exists in that game. Also, assuming you are using cultural weapon bases (which is pretty huge for starting characters), it's also very important. Skills are base + bonus + exp gains. Base is fixed (but may vary based on race/culture), bonus is set based on stats, and exp is gained during play (but you get some starting amounts in some skills based on starting profession). So while stats matter (a bit), it's really your race/culture and starting profession that's going to determine how good you are at doing different things when you start.

So yeah. You're always going to start with "what do I want to do?", and then choose "what race/culture will allow me to do this?". Stats matter, but are not nearly as much of an optimization problem as it is for other game systems.

[Satinavian]

I'd like to avoid "generate ability scores but don't assign them" or similar splitting, because in my experience teaching lots of people how to play 5e, assigning ability scores is the most confusing thing. And generally, I'd like to design a system where having absolute top ability scores isn't actually all that important.

I'm currently playing a level 10 bard in a 5e game with ability modifiers of +4 CHA after 2 ASIs and +1 everything else. It works fine. Is is superb? No. Does it work? Yes.

And the order really only matters for new players--experienced players can (and this is stated explicitly) deviate and do it in any order--there's nothing that gates later choices on earlier choices except a desire to optimize.
Now you say that stats are not that important. But it is always the experienced players who really know how important stats actually are and how little optimisation they really need. The new players are always the ones who are anxious about making mistakes and weak characters like choosing a class and then not rolling the stats the class need to work properly.

If you want to assign stats late, then make the standard array or whatever the default and rolling optional.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Now you say that stats are not that important. But it is always the experienced players who really know how important stats actually are and how little optimisation they really need. The new players are always the ones who are anxious about making mistakes and weak characters like choosing a class and then not rolling the stats the class need to work properly.

If you want to assign stats late, then make the standard array or whatever the default and rolling optional.

Two things--that's not my experience. My new players have been very open to picking things purely narratively. Including not pumping the prime stat.

Second--Standard array is the default, with "if you want to roll, here's way to do it".

[KorvinStarmast]

Second--Standard array is the default, with "if you want to roll, here's way to do it". In your game under construction ?

[PhoenixPhyre]

In your game under construction ?

Yeah. I'm fine with rolling, personally. So it (the standard array)'s a very soft default, just because it's way simpler. Not because I have conceptual objections to rolling.

I personally dislike point buy for very idiosyncratic reasons. And I don't want to do the math to make it work with modifiers only. So I haven't built any piece of point buy yet.

I want to add more explicit alternate rolling schemes like "everyone rolls an array and you pick which one you want to use" or "everyone rolls one stat until everything's allocated", but haven't yet.

[Duff]

With ordering of stats when you can roll or buy.
When you choose to roll, that will decide whether some classes will work for you or not (assuming you haven't made all classes genuinely equally MAD/SAD) while choosing will be influenced by the class you chose.

I suggest this order.
1 - Introduce the stats. Include here the sort of things it's good for and some suggestion of the classes it works for.

Eg, "Strength [all the usual stuff about carrying, throwing, arm wrestling etc]. Strength is used by most classes that use large weapons in melee. It's also essential for Skinchanger's* ability to fight using their beast form's natual weapons.
- Dex would have "Dex is used by most classes that use light weapons in melee and by those that use ranged weapons.
- "Int is used by Swordmages** who use melee weapons powered by their magical skill more than their own physical ability"

* Skinchangers being an example of a possible background feature (or other non-class attribute) that changes how the character fights
** Swordmage and Int are used as an example for any class that is using melee weapons for combat but not relying on physicality, eg 4th Ed Chaladins, Hexblade warlocks etc


2 - Create your stats by rolling or choosing
3 - Introduce classes and then choose class

[Witty Username]

I personally dislike point buy for very idiosyncratic reasons. And I don't want to do the math to make it work with modifiers only. So I haven't built any piece of point buy yet.

hear! hear!

In all honesty, as I understand you wouldn't be implementing multi classing, so any point buy system would likely be relatively 'solvable' problem. A standard array is probably sufficient for such things.

Group rolling is probably fine, but most balance roll methods feel a bit egregious to me, if ability score disparity means that much it is a sign of system problems from my view. But no issues having it for the skittish among us.



If you do that, then assign scores/plusses/minuses after class selection would be my recommended approach.

1. Who are you? (Race - lineage - culture)
2. What do you want to become? Class
3. What are you doing now, or, what were you doing right before you begin to go out on adventures? (Background)
(swap 2 and 3 if desired, it doesn't matter that much...Iam a soldier but I used to be an Entertainer is not particularly different from I was a scholar but I want to become a traveling bard/minstrel ... )
4. Determine ability scores (per your method)
5. Assign stat scores.
6. Gear last.
7. Spells, if any, after comes after 6.

That is a pretty good order, I think that is what the Warhammer 40rpgs use (the FFG ones), the order is a bit enforced by aircraft in that system (Origin is how one determines score generation and at least 1E Dark Heresy uses class/race style restrictions - Only so much Technical knowledge you can get from a Feral world for example. It works pretty well in a who are you, what do you do set up.

[Rynjin]

IME "chronological order" is best for new players, "most common/relevant order" is better for experienced players.

Experienced players have a much greater ability to re-order things in their mind, being more familiar with the system. Therefore "chronological" is better in most cases.

New players tend to go off FANTASY FIRST and have relatively less interest in mechanics. "I am a beautiful elven Bard". Beautiful is an attribute. Elf is a race. Bard is a class. It is in this order that they tend to think about things, and so this is roughly the order things should be presented.

[Thane of Fife]

I'd like to avoid "generate ability scores but don't assign them" or similar splitting, because in my experience teaching lots of people how to play 5e, assigning ability scores is the most confusing thing. And generally, I'd like to design a system where having absolute top ability scores isn't actually all that important.

I'm currently playing a level 10 bard in a 5e game with ability modifiers of +4 CHA after 2 ASIs and +1 everything else. It works fine. Is is superb? No. Does it work? Yes.

Why don't you just disconnect ability scores from normal performance altogether? You're the one who frequently derides any sort of optional feats or whatever that are important but that you can choose not to take. Ability scores are just the ultimate form of that.

I can understand why you don't just get rid of them entirely, because they serve as skills in 5e, but what's the benefit of keeping them tied to attack rolls and save DCs and such?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Why don't you just disconnect ability scores from normal performance altogether? You're the one who frequently derides any sort of optional feats or whatever that are important but that you can choose not to take. Ability scores are just the ultimate form of that.

I can understand why you don't just get rid of them entirely, because they serve as skills in 5e, but what's the benefit of keeping them tied to attack rolls and save DCs and such?

Because I think that's actually important. The Strong guy should be better at Strong things like wielding a great axe or wearing heavy armor. The Smart guy arcanist should be better at using that to cast arcane spells than someone not so Smart. Etc.

Now the range of that influence is, absolutely, limited. A couple points. But I've found it makes a huge difference in how players think about their characters. And that matters to me much more than the numerics.