Optimization Junkyard Wars XLIV: Huge Size + Frostburn Weapons - Expansion [Archive]

View Full Version : Optimization Junkyard Wars XLIV: Huge Size + Frostburn Weapons - Expansion

Inevitability

2023-12-06, 06:08 PM

Welcome to Junkyard Stadium! It is in this hallowed pile of miscellaneous parts that we will hold a competition of Practical Optimization with three components. The catch? Competitors may not use the third item in their builds! I'm your fresh new host, Inevitability, here with a new and thrilling (or chilling) challenge!

Goal: Create a build that showcases the selected ingredients while steering clear of the Forbidden Ingredient.

This competition has two Necessary Components and one Forbidden Component. This round's components are...

Necessary: Huge (or bigger) Size!
Necessary: Frostburn Weapons!
Forbidden: The Expansion power!

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b6/9f/14/b69f14447e724ba846046ee430bfead3.jpg

Everything in the arctic is big: polar bears are larger than their forest cousins, foxes and wolves likewise, birds with massive wingspans circle the sky, enormous whales swim the seas... to say nothing of the Ice Age's megafauna. In this round, you'll be creating a build that blends enormous proportions with the exotic weaponry of the Far North... while staying clear of that ever-so-easy way to become Huge, the Expansion power. What kind of martial mammoth can you cook up under these restrictions?

Creation: 32 point-buy is the presumed creation method. You may assume that you will have enough exp to reach ECL 20, and that the occasional bit of crafting, use of spells with exp components, or the like won't prevent you from doing so. However, LA buyoff is an alternate rule which is not in play.
Workshop: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. If you use web material, please link it. Dragon Magazine Compendium is allowed, as are Oriental Adventures (and its 3.5 updates in Dragon Magazine) and the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. Alternate rule systems from UA such as generic classes, spontaneous divine casters, gestalt and fractional saves and BAB are not allowed, as they create a different playing field.
Leadership is banned: We're creating one thing, not all of the things. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means. If your entry includes a prestige class that requires Leadership, you still need to qualify, but the feat should thereafter be ignored.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until after the reveal in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines. Speculation and stub posting is to be avoided until the reveal is completed.
Disputes: Any scoring disputes should be sent to the Chair via PM. Valid disputes include RAW misreadings, arithmetic errors, things missed that are present in the entry, and inconsistently applied criteria. Invalid disputes include disagreements on matters of opinion, a judge not catching something not explicitly presented in the entry, and the like. Invalid disputes will be responded to via PM by the Chair, but valid disputes will be posted in-thread for the judge to review. When disputing, please indicate the judge the dispute is intended for and provide a quote of the disputed comment or comments. Note: the Chair may edit or paraphrase any disputes in presenting them to the judges.
Presentation: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability throughout its life. Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries. Also for this reason, PLEASE do not include any material that may or may not grossly offend any potential viewers/judges/competitors OR break forum rules. Any builds which violate forum rules WILL be withheld from posting.
Anonymity: if you are submitting multiple entries, please try not to have entries reference each other, or have other obvious "tells" that they are from the same competitor. If it is essential for your concept that entries are somehow linked, that is fine, but otherwise, please try to limit info that will give away who competitors are.

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, please use the following table for their entry.
NAME OF ENTRY

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)
Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

mattie_p has also kindly made a Google Document that greatly assists with creating and formatting tables: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BG0-5sq4dL9Ooh7-QfXuyHzO4rXSz-CRcj29t6BeUVE/edit?usp=sharing

Scoring: Each judge is required to provide the criteria by which they are judging the builds. By "criteria," we mean a simple explanation of what the judge is looking for in each of the below categories and what kind of scoring we can expect. If a judge deems a build to be illegal, they may provide a 0 in Elegance but may not refuse to judge any build presented by the Chairman.
The Categories: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Components.

Originality: Is the build unique? Does it deviate from the obvious? Does it forge its own path, or does it fall back on common, established optimization tricks? Some judges score entries for the quality of their concept & backstory as well, though not all do. Providing at least some backstory or fluff is heavily encouraged, as it helps the judges figure out who the entry is. Note that the purpose of this category is not to penalize entries that independently came up with the same idea as another entry, but rather to reward entries that explore underutilized and non-obvious areas of optimization, so, judges, try not to base your judging in this category too heavily on what other builds are doing. Multiple entries using the same element may certainly be evidence that the element is unoriginal, but you shouldn't impose anything like a "-1 for each other build using the same class" penalty.
Power: Power represents your build's, well, power. Builds are not to be penalized for being 'too powerful', though judges are advised to have a standard where things other than tier 1 casters can acquire a perfect power score still.
Elegance: This category was formerly titled "Build Stability." Here, we're essentially measuring how skillfully you put your build together and how you balanced flavor with power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Multiclassing that results in an XP penalty is penalized here as well, though 'dips' that fall short of XP penalties should not be. Rule adherence and legality of sources is scored under this category; additionally, reliance on a questionable, controversial, or ambiguous ruling can and should result in a deduction. Neither the number of sources nor their relative obscurity should be penalized--contestants should feel free to use any books they like. Lastly, errors of build presentation are penalized here too.
Use of Components: Was the Forbidden Component avoided? Were the Necessary Components showcased, or simply used because they were necessary? Were the Necessary Components used mostly separately, or combined into a harmonious whole?

Note on scoring: if you are going to penalize an entry for something specific, it is strongly recommend that it only be penalized in one of the four categories for this - the one you feel is the most relevant. It is OK to put different penalties for different instances in their own category, but if, say, someone fails to qualify for a PrC, try not to ping them in Elegance and Power, for instance.
Disputes: Any scoring disputes will be posted by the Chairman in-thread after reviewing them privately. Valid disputes include

RAW misreadings,
arithmetic errors,
things missed that are present in the entry,
and inconsistently applied criteria.

Note: only competitors are to raise disputes, and only on their own entry. If you, as a spectator, find an error in judging (or in an entry, for that matter), please hold off on comment until after the final reveal. Thank you.

Invalid disputes will be responded to via PM by the Chair, but valid disputes should be responded to by each individual judge. Judges are obligated to respond to disputes to ensure that everyone gets a fair shake. A judge's scores will only be recognized if they have recognized all disputes. In the absence of any other judges, the entries will be judged by the chairman.

In the event that no suitable judge is found in a reasonable time, we will trial the alternate method:

Each contestant picks their three favourite entries that they did not submit. They will rank the three in order from first to third, and this will be submitted privately to The Chair.
Entries that are not rated by a contestant are presumed to rated at 4th place.
The score of each entry is averaged, and competition winners will be decided with the lowest number taking first place, second-lowest taking second and so forth.

Completion Time:

Contestants will have until 23:59 GMT Saturday December 30, 2023 Thursday 23:59 GMT January 3rd 2024 to create their builds and PM them to the chairman (note: you are free to submit builds up until I start posting entries, even if this deadline has passed).
Builds will then be posted simultaneously to avoid copying.
Judges will have until 23:59 GMT Sunday January 14, 2024 Thursday 23:59 GMT January 17, 2024 to judge the builds and submit their scores.
Should there not be a reasonable prospect of a judge for the competition, the backup judging method will take place from 23:59 GMT Thursday January 28, 2023 to rank and average prospective builds.
As the precedent has been set from Episode 2, should all prospective judges have posted their rulings in a neat, timely fashion and all disputes have been settled satisfactorily (to either judges, contestants, or the Chairperson), the judging period may end prematurely to give way to a new episode. No reason to keep working on a finished building and avoid moving onto the next one.
While I (Inevitability) am chair, judges can expect priority voting on the next round's theme and are encouraged to submit their own suggestions.

Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing! We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build that doesn't gain a medal.. Everyone can vote in-thread. Ready? Set? Get to the junkyard and start building!

On the subject of messaging the chair (me), a few guidelines:
- I am not here to give critiques on your build or guess how the judges might score it!
- For entries, please keep the entry to no more than 2 messages, if at all possible.
- For entries, don't expect me to search through your entry and edit in or out material. Entries should be sent to me complete - if there is a later revision, re-submit the full build. PLEASE DON'T INCLUDE TEXT IN YOUR SUBMISSION YOU WANT ME TO EDIT OUT FOR THE POST - SUBMIT IT TO ME EXACTLY HOW I WILL POST THE FINISHED PRODUCT.
- Please make sure the name of your entry is clearly present in the message.
- Please make sure the title of your submission clearly connects your message to this contest. This makes it much easier for me to find your build in my inbox.

Junkyard Wars in the Playground I: Shadowdancer + Sneak Attack - Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?337864)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground II: Healing Spells + Ruby Knight Vindicator - Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342896)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground III: Dragons + Theurges - Kobolds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347412)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground IV: BoED + Undead Type - Completes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355278)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground V: Dread Witch + Reaping Mauler - Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?360271)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground VI: Wonderworker + Profession Skill - Factotum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369604)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground VII: Metamagic Feats + LA - Metamagic Reducers! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374504)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground VIII: Pounce+Small Size-Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388151)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground IX: Earth Dreamer + Ordained Champion - Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?395791)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground X: Meldshaping + Natural Attacks - Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?403880)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XI: Magical Darkness + Improved Familiar - Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409650)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XII: Dragonmark Heirs + Touchstones - Martial Weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430214)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XIII: Mulhorandi Divine Minion + Monk - Any Other Wildshaping (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?465901)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XIV: Racial Paragon Classes + Spellcasting - Base Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479427)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XV: Ruathar + Stoneblessed - Human (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497904)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?540521)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XVII: Elemental Warrior + Jaunter - Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?552569)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XVIII: Argent Savant + Holy Scourge - Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?555404)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XIX: Incarnum Blade + Exotic Weapon Master - Spiked Chain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?562523-Junkyard-Wars-XIX-IB-EWM-SC)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XX: Xorvintaal Exarch + The Pact-Bound Adept - Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568541-Junkyard-Wars-XX-XE-PBA(a)-S)
Junkyard Wars in the Playground XXI: Rebuke Undead + Teamwork Benefits - [Divine] feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?572680-Junkyard-Wars-XXI-Halloween-Round!)
Junkyard Wars XXII: Battle Trickster + Magical Trickster - Uncanny Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?577512-Junkyard-Wars-XXII-Show-Me-Your-Skillz)
Junkyard Wars XXIII: Spellwarp Sniper + Silver Pyromancer - Energy Substitution (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581736-Junkyard-Wars-XXIII-Ready-Aim-Fire)
Junkyard Wars XXIV: Vow of Peace + Saint - Divine casting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?585567-Junkyard-Wars-XXIV-VoPe-S-DC)
Junkyard Wars XXV: Silverwood Arcanist + Share Soulmeld - Soulcaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?590622-Junkyard-Wars-XXV-SA-SS-S)
Junkyard Wars XXVI: RSL + ACF - PrCs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?593374-Junkyard-Wars-XXVI-RSL-ACF-PrCs)
Junkyard Wars XXVII: Unholy Scion + Mark - Affiliation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?598151-Junkyard-Wars-XXVII-US-M-A)
Junkyard Wars XXVII: 1MF + CPA&A - T (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?603826-Junkyard-Wars-XXVIII-1MF-CPA-amp-A-T)
Junkyard Wars XXIX: Social Distancing Edition! (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610153-Junkyard-Wars-XXIX-Social-Distancing-Edition!)
Junkyard Wars XXX: Something a Little Spicy (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?631758-Junkyard-Wars-XXX-Something-a-Little-Spicy)
Junkyard Wars XXXI: Giddy-Up! (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?633325)
Junkyard Wars XXXII: Theurge Without Theurge (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?634803)
Junkyard Wars XXXIII: LotD + AF - Necropolitan (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?636185)
Junkyard Wars XXXIV: SE + HoS - Soulmelds (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?637670)
Junkyard Wars XXXV: Complete Class + Complete PrC - PHB Classes (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?641168)
Junkyard Wars XXXVI: Vestige Binding + MWP - Binder (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?642413)
Junkyard Wars XXXVII: Bone Collector + Necropotent - ToB (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?644772)
Junkyard Wars XXXVIII: NPC Class + Prestige Class - Base Classes (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?645816)
Junkyard Wars XXXIX - Stunning Fist + Evasion - Monk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646976)
Junkyard Wars XL - Ninths + Metamagic - Prepared Spells (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?648718)
Junkyard Wars XLI - Spellcasting + Rage - Rage Mage (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?653216)
Junkyard Wars XLII - Smite + Mounted Combat - Paladin (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?655908)
Junkyard Wars XLIII - Natural Weapons + Spellcasting - Druid (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?659277)

Inevitability

2023-12-06, 06:09 PM

Contest Questions and Answers

Q1: So what is a 'Frostburn weapon' exactly?
A1: Any non-core manufactured weapon of which the stats can be found in Frostburn. This includes every weapon listed in the table on page 76 of that book. As well as...

Q2: Do we need to be Huge size innately?
A2: A Large or smaller character who acquires Huge size through temporary or dispellable means satisfies the requirement. Judges are allowed, but not required, to penalize builds who are only Huge for a short portion of each day. Likewise, a naturally Huge character is allowed to take on Large or smaller forms temporarily.

Q3: How do ritiiks work? What does 'hooking' someone mean?
A3: After the initial trip attempt, 'hooking' someone works like harpooning them, but instead of confining a target to a 30 ft. radius it confines the target to whatever area you threaten with the ritiik. Obviously if you drop it after a failed trip attempt, the target does not have its movement restricted like this.

Also, as a freebie warning: note that multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack! Builds whose only means of reaching Huge size involves layering multiple magical effects will thus not be considered to meet the contest requirement.

Morphic tide

2023-12-06, 09:14 PM

A potentially helpful thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?127732) for this competition.

H_H_F_F

2023-12-07, 03:57 AM

Might participate. We'll see.

pabelfly

2023-12-07, 05:32 AM

Me: I want a bit of a break from working on 3e-related stuff

Also me, after starting research for this comp: I don't like the resources that are currently available to answer my question, guess I need to start writing up another resource thread

PoeticallyPsyco

2023-12-07, 06:18 AM

Okay. Hmm. You know what, I'm down to cook for this one. I've got the ironic problem of having come up with a straightforward but hopefully surprising solution to the requirements, but it's simple enough that it hasn't given me any further direction for the build after that! I'll think of something.

And I've got a crazier idea in my back pocket that I can also flesh out if I have time.

Quentinas

2023-12-07, 07:01 AM

Inevitability

2023-12-07, 12:44 PM

A builder has asked a question that I think is important enough to deliver a chair's call on:

Q: How do ritiiks work? What does 'hooking' someone mean?

A: After the initial trip attempt, 'hooking' someone works like harpooning them, but instead of confining a target to a 30 ft. radius it confines the target to whatever area you threaten with the ritiik. Obviously if you drop it after a failed trip attempt, the target does not have its movement restricted like this.

PoeticallyPsyco

2023-12-07, 03:10 PM

Ugh, I can meet all three requirements so early, and it's such a cool start for the character, but then... [chirping crickets where the rest of the build should be]

I'm this close to banging my head against my laptop in the hopes that something interesting will fall out of one of them. I really don't want to go nothing but base class, but I just can't seem to find a PrC that fits what I'm going for.

loky1109

2023-12-07, 03:12 PM

Inevitability

2023-12-08, 03:26 AM

PoeticallyPsyco

2023-12-08, 06:41 AM

You know what, you guys are right.

loky1109

2023-12-08, 03:47 PM

Okay, I have an idea.

quetzalcoatl5

2023-12-09, 10:37 AM

I can judge! January is way more open for my job and while I have build ideas, nothing is getting me excited!

FactualArcher

2023-12-09, 10:49 AM

I've had a pretty interesting build idea, so I'm probably in to cook.

Menzath

2023-12-13, 04:11 PM

A question about the bone bow and "functions as a composite longbow".
Does this mean bone bows need a specific composite rating as well?

Inevitability

2023-12-13, 04:46 PM

A question about the bone bow and "functions as a composite longbow".
Does this mean bone bows need a specific composite rating as well?

So I did issue a statement on the ritiik, but the ritiik was fundamentally unusable without some kind of DM call on what it actually does. The bone bow description allows for two functional rules interpretations. I do not think either of those is unambiguously correct, and I will not be restricting the judges' ability to rule on this controversy as they see fit.

No further comment.

PoeticallyPsyco

2023-12-15, 09:21 PM

Welp, just learned that both of my builds are illegal. And not just slightly illegal, like I realized they were a few days ago, but super illegal. I'll post the details after the reveal in case someone else is cooking using the ingredient I was.

EDIT: Now it's time to really start cooking. If I can make at least one of my truly insane ideas work, I'll be a happy camper despite this setback.

Inevitability

2023-12-25, 05:17 AM

How's everyone's builds coming along? With the hassle of the holidays I cannot fault anyone for needing an extension, so if so, please let me know!

loky1109

2023-12-25, 05:52 AM

I'll be in time.

FactualArcher

2023-12-25, 06:15 AM

I hope to be in on time, but I might need a short extension. I'll let you know either way closer to the deadline.

PoeticallyPsyco

2023-12-27, 04:14 PM

I believe my build is done, may tweak it a bit more. Already started putting it into tables, hopefully I can make some progress on that tonight.

FactualArcher

2023-12-29, 07:42 AM

My entry is finally in. I'm really happy with it and am excited to see what everyone else came up with.

loky1109

2023-12-29, 08:46 AM

I should finish mine today.

NotInventedHere

2023-12-30, 09:55 AM

How's everyone's builds coming along? With the hassle of the holidays I cannot fault anyone for needing an extension, so if so, please let me know!
An extra day or two would be very much appreciated, I've been rather ill lately.

Inevitability

2023-12-30, 12:47 PM

23:59 GMT January 3rd 2024 is the new deadline for chefs to hand in their entries!

PoeticallyPsyco

2023-12-30, 12:59 PM

Awesome. I could probably have wrapped mine up tonight, but I was already on the verge of asking for an extension myself.

loky1109

2023-12-30, 01:58 PM

What sizes are Glot, Harpoon and Razor skipdisk? One-Handed? Light?

Inevitability

2023-12-30, 02:15 PM

What sizes are Glot, Harpoon and Razor skipdisk? One-Handed? Light?

As ranged weapons, they are neither one-handed nor light. Sometimes a light or one-handed weapon can be used to make ranged attacks (as with daggers or tridents), but weapons that are exclusively thrown (like darts) need not be either one-handed or light. I cannot think of a context where you'd need to identify a weapon as one or the other - if there is, please let me know in a PM (though I'll probably say to assume one-handed).

Inevitability

2024-01-03, 10:18 AM

The extended deadline is tonight: NotInventedHere and PoeticallyPsyco, will you be able to get your entries in on time?

PoeticallyPsyco

2024-01-03, 12:09 PM

Should be able to. The build is done, the table is almost done, the writeups are almost done, and I've got 7(?) hours to finish it all.

NotInventedHere

2024-01-03, 01:17 PM

The extended deadline is tonight: NotInventedHere and PoeticallyPsyco, will you be able to get your entries in on time?
Yes, the build's all sorted, I'm just wrangling it into the table now.

PoeticallyPsyco

2024-01-03, 06:18 PM

Just the ... ugh... sources.

Inevitability

2024-01-03, 06:23 PM

Don't feel too rushed: timezones mean I'm not going to be awake when the deadline rolls around, so I probably won't see the build until another 8-10 hours from now. Best of luck with the final bits!

PoeticallyPsyco

2024-01-03, 06:55 PM

I'm in. Time will tell whether something crucial got lost in the copy-pasting process; last time I did this, I managed to cut out my ability scores entirely.

NotInventedHere

2024-01-03, 06:59 PM

I got mine in, immediately realised I'd missed out a key chunk of the stub, and had to quickly submit an edited version...

Inevitability

2024-01-04, 04:34 AM

I shall now present the entries: please do not post in this thread until I give the all-clear!

Inevitability

2024-01-04, 04:35 AM

Well, you know how hybrid animals are commonly bigger than both parents? It's kinda like that...

Patrick, The Keeper

https://i.ibb.co/kmf1mPv/kraken2k.png

“Now, here’s the inn, right by the town square, if you get lost, just look for the statue, you can see it from nearly anywhere in town… Oh, the statue? Ah, that’s not some god or demon, that’s our local hero, Patrick. Truly, traveller, I knew him myself, he really did have all those arms, and the snake-head and all. Strange-looking, maybe, maybe, but he was one of us. Kept our town safe, he did. Knew the value of community. Not like the youngsters these days, with all their laziness and their southern gods and their looking down on our ways. Don’t know the meaning of sacrifice. Patrick stood by our gate every winter, when the wolves and the raiders and the things from out of the deep ice would come, and not a single one did he let by. Not one. I’ll not hear a word these southern clerics say about him. He saved my life, and my sister’s, and my daughter’s, and it was that ‘trafficking with dark powers’ they complain about that always protected us. They just don’t understand the old ways. For forty years he kept us safe. And for twenty-three years he kept the best damn hockey goal in the Ten-Towns League, until the other towns finally forced through that rules change mandating a maximum size for goal-keepers. Oh, it was a sight to see him scooping up a whole winter wolf with his stick, flipping it over on its back and sliding it across the ice just like a puck...”

“Yes, winter wolves. Horrible beasties, freezing cold breath – yes, size of a horse, indeed. Oh, I understand. Look at the inscription on the base of the statue, see. ‘Fior meud’.”

“ ‘Actual size’.”

Patrick, The Keeper
Half-Fiend (Molydeus) LE Human Fighter 2 / Warblade 14
Gargantuan Outsider (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 2d10+14d12+144 (250hp)
Str 42, Dex 20, Con 28, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 14
AC: 24 (+13 natural, +5 Dex, -4 size)
Attack: +28/+23/+18/+13 sugliin (6d8+24) or 6 claws +28 (2d6+16)
Special Attacks: smite good, SLAs: darkness 3/day, suggestion 1/day, unholy blight 1/day, vampiric touch 3/day, baleful polymorph 1/day, blasphemy 1/day, unholy aura 3/day, telekinesis 1/day, horrid wilting 1/day (Save DCs 12+level)
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft., immune to poison, acid/cold/electric/fire resistance 10, DR 10/cold iron, SR 30
Trip opposed check bonus: +32

Abilities Initial Half-Fiend (Molydeus) Size increase Medium > Gargantuan 4th 8th 12th 16th
STR 14 4 24
DEX 18 2 -4 1 1 1 1
CON 12 4 12
INT 12 2
WIS 8
CHA 10 4

Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Reflex Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
1st (ECL 5) Fighter 1 +1 +11 +3 -1 20: {+4 CC} Concentration: 2; {+4} Intimidate: 4; {+4} Jump: 4; {+4} Swim: 4; {+4 CC} Spellcraft: 2; Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sugliin), Power Attack (B)(F), Combat Reflexes (B)(H) Bonus feat
2nd (ECL 6) Fighter 2 +2 +12 +3 -1 5: Concentration: 2; {+2 CC} Forgery: 1; {+1} Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 5; {+1} Jump: 5; Swim: 4; Spellcraft: 2; Improved Bull Rush (B)(F) Bonus feat
3rd (ECL 7) Warblade 1 +3 +14 +3 -1 7: {+2} Balance: 2; {+2} Concentration: 4; Forgery: 1; Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 6; {+1} Jump: 6; {+1} Swim: 5; Spellcraft: 2; Combat Expertise Battle clarity (Reflex saves), weapon aptitude
4th (ECL 8) Warblade 2 +4 +15 +3 -1 7: {+2} Balance: 4; {+2} Concentration: 6; Forgery: 1; Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 7; {+1} Jump: 7; {+1} Swim: 6; Spellcraft: 2; Uncanny dodge
5th (ECL 9) Warblade 3 +5 +15 +4 +0 7: {+1} Balance: 5; {+2} Concentration: 8; Forgery: 1; Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 8; {+1} Jump: 8; {+1} Swim: 7; Spellcraft: 2; {+1} Tumble: 1; Battle ardor (critical confirmation)
6th (ECL 10) Warblade 4 +6/+1 +16 +4 +0 7: Balance: 5; {+1} Concentration: 9; Forgery: 1; Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 9; {+1} Jump: 9; {+2} Swim: 9; Spellcraft: 2; {+2} Tumble: 3; Sugliin Mastery
7th (ECL 11) Warblade 5 +7/+2 +16 +4 +0 7: Balance: 5; {+1} Concentration: 10; Forgery: 1; Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 10; {+1} Jump: 10; {+1} Knowledge (local): 1; {+1} Swim: 10; Spellcraft: 2; {+2} Tumble: 5; Improved Trip (B)(Wb) Bonus feat
8th (ECL 12) Warblade 6 +8/+3 +17 +6 +1 7: Balance: 5; {+1} Concentration: 11; Forgery: 1; Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 11; {+1} Jump: 11; {+1} Knowledge (local): 2; {+1} Swim: 11; Spellcraft: 2; {+2} Tumble: 7; Improved uncanny dodge
9th (ECL 13) Warblade 7 +9/+4 +17 +6 +1 7: Balance: 5; {+1} Concentration: 12; Forgery: 1; Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 12; {+1} Jump: 12; {+1} Knowledge (local): 3; {+1} Swim: 12; Spellcraft: 2; {+2} Tumble: 9; Knock-Down Battle cunning (damage)
10th (ECL 14) Warblade 8 +10/+5 +18 +6 +1 7: Balance: 5; {+1} Concentration: 13; Forgery: 1; Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 13; {+1} Jump: 13; {+1} Knowledge (local): 4; {+1} Swim: 13; Spellcraft: 2; {+2} Tumble: 11;
11th (ECL 15) Warblade 9 +11/+6/+1 +18 +7 +2 7: Balance: 5; {+1} Concentration: 14; Forgery: 1; Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 14; {+1} Jump: 14; {+1} Knowledge (local): 5; {+1} Swim: 14; Spellcraft: 2; {+2} Tumble: 13; Knockback (B)(Wb) Bonus feat
12th (ECL 16) Warblade 10 +12/+7/+2 +19 +7 +2 7: Balance: 5; {+1} Concentration: 15; Forgery: 1; Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 15; {+1} Jump: 15; {+1} Knowledge (local): 6; {+1} Swim: 15; Spellcraft: 2; {+2} Tumble: 15; Mage Slayer
13th (ECL 17) Warblade 11 +13/+8/+3 +19 +7 +2 7: Balance: 5; {+1} Concentration: 16; Forgery: 1; Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 16; {+1} Jump: 16; {+2} Knowledge (local): 8; {+1} Swim: 16; Spellcraft: 2; {+1} Tumble: 16; Battle skill (opposed checks)
14th (ECL 18) Warblade 12 +14/+9/+4 +20 +8 +3 7: Balance: 5; {+1} Concentration: 17; Forgery: 1; Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 17; {+1} Jump: 17; {+2} Knowledge (local): 10; {+1} Swim: 17; Spellcraft: 2; {+1} Tumble: 17;
15th (ECL 19) Warblade 13 +15/+10/+5 +20 +8 +3 7: Balance: 5; {+1} Concentration: 18; Forgery: 1; Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 18; {+1} Jump: 18; {+2} Knowledge (local): 12; {+1} Swim: 18; Spellcraft: 2; {+1} Tumble: 18; Area Attack, Shock Trooper (B)(Wb) Bonus feat
16th (ECL 20) Warblade 14 +16/+11/+6/+1 +21 +9 +3 7: Balance: 5; {+1} Concentration: 19; Forgery: 1; Handle Animal: 1; {+1} Intimidate: 19; {+1} Jump: 19; {+2} Knowledge (local): 14; {+1} Swim: 19; Spellcraft: 2; {+1} Tumble: 19;

Level Class Initiator Level Maneuvers Known Maneuvers Readied Stances Known
1st Fighter 1
2nd Fighter 2 (1)
3rd Warblade 1 2 3 3 1
4th Warblade 2 3 4 3 1
5th Warblade 3 4 5 3 1
6th Warblade 4 5 5 4 2
7th Warblade 5 6 6 4 2
8th Warblade 6 7 6 4 2
9th Warblade 7 8 7 4 2
10th Warblade 8 9 7 4 2
11th Warblade 9 10 8 4 2
12th Warblade 10 11 8 5 3
13th Warblade 11 12 9 5 3
14th Warblade 12 13 9 5 3
15th Warblade 13 14 10 5 3
16th Warblade 14 15 10 5 3

Recommended Warblade Maneuvers:
Warblade 1: Moment of Perfect Mind, Punishing Stance
Warblade 2: Wall of Blades
Warblade 3: Iron Heart Surge, Leaping Dragon Stance
Warblade 4: Death From Above
Warblade 5: Pouncing Charge, Disrupting Blow, Hearing The Air
Warblade 6: Moment of Alacrity
Warblade 7: Swooping Dragon Strike, Finishing Move
Warblade 8: Diamond Nightmare Blade

Thanks to the enormous LA of Half-Fiend, we start existence at ECL 5. At this point Patrick is extremely squishy in terms of raw hit points, but does have a few important defensive attributes: firstly, his DR 10/cold iron, which is much less likely to be bypassed than the standard half-fiend’s magic-based DR, and his energy resistance to soak up some damage from DR-bypassing energy attacks, but more notably his flat SR 30 providing immunity to a wide variety of spells. Against most threats, the best defence is hitting them before they hit you; we start out with all the basic tools needed, which is to say, a big stick, an enormous reach and lots of damage. Enemies that think they can just tank the one hit as they charge in to be inside Patrick’s reach-weapon range get to be introduced to his 6 claw attacks. Since claws are the only kind of natural weapon Patrick has, all of them are primary and so all 6 get to add his full Strength bonus. Take advantage of this on anyone who thinks it’s you that’s now stuck in close range with them. Feel free to use the first claw attack to trip them for the extra accuracy, too – you’re not subject to an attack of opportunity because the trip attempt explicitly provokes “as normal for unarmed attacks” and you have a natural weapon, and even without the +4 from Improved Trip yet, you still have two or three size categories on most targets and a Strength score that beats most Great Wyrm dragons. (It’s not 100% clear how gaining 6 claw attacks works on a humanoid template target. Possibly Patrick has 6 extra kraken-y tentacle-arms tipped in claws that can’t do anything but claw things, which is how I’ve sort of visualised it. Possibly two of the claws go on his normal human hands and the other 4 go on extra arms, so he only has 4 claw attacks if he doesn’t drop his weapon. Possibly he has three sets of claws per hand?? Don’t think too hard about it, the claws aren’t actually that important.)

We have begun to set up the key elements of the build, and pay all the feat taxes along the way. Sugliin Mastery is acquired at more-or-less the earliest possible point, allowing a full attack if you have nothing better to do, and between that and our Warblade maneuvers we have a number of ways to hit someone very hard with a big stick, but hitting someone very hard with a big stick is still the basic total of Patrick’s tricks at this point. Our SLAs provide a little extra capability, with suggestion replacing the base half-fiend’s desecrate, but the save DC is unimpressive. Defensively, SR 30 still does a lot of work, and your DR should still take the sting out of a lot of ranged attack options. Your early maneuvers also fill some gaps, with Moment of Perfect Mind to take the sting out of Will-based attacks that have a way to bypass your SR and Wall of Blades to block uberchargers and other heavy hitters. I also recommend Sudden Leap if you need some early mobility.

Our key capabilities have finally come online. Knock-Down, Knockback and Improved Trip combine for a total lock-down on anyone within 40ft of you. Nothing says you can’t bull-rush someone who’s prone, after all, or that you can’t trigger the effects of both Knock-Down and Knockback from the same hit. Hit them, trip them with Knock-Down (since you’re pretty much guaranteed to do at least 10 damage), hit them again with Improved Trip’s free attack, then apply Knockback to send them skidding back. If they think they can 5ft step slowly across your threatened area, hit them on your own turn and send them back farther than they’ve managed to advance. For ranged foes, Pouncing Charge lets you close and still tear into them, and Disrupting Blow leverages your ridiculous Str modifier for an irresistible stun.

We just hit our fourth iterative, and round out Patrick’s bag of sugliin tricks with the old classic of Shock Trooper, but for its two lesser-used modes. Knockback counts as a bull-rush, so you can use Directed Bull Rush to skillfully target your puck-enemy at another enemy, then trigger Domino Rush to trip the second enemy and get a free Improved Trip attack on them. (Technically speaking you can… possibly also get a free trip attempt on the already knocked-down enemy and another free Improved Trip attack on them, since nothing in the Trip rules says you can’t trip someone who’s already prone? But that smells like the bad nonsense kind of cheese rather than the fun wacky kind of cheese to me.) Since high-level casters are starting to have a good chance of overcoming your spell resistance, and may have something up their sleeves that can ruin your day with an SR: No line anyway, Mage Slayer makes sure we can interrupt them, force a Concentration check even they’re unlikely to be able to make, and then knock them over for good measure. Remember, unless it’s a crossbow or shuriken, you can’t make ranged attacks while prone… including all those spells that require ranged touch attacks. (Mage Slayer does weaken our SLAs, but we weren’t depending on those as a main combat option anyhow – the main drawback is losing a little out-of-combat utility from telekinesis lifting less weight.) Patrick does still have a limited number of attacks and a limited number of attacks of opportunity, so being swarmed by a massive number of weak (or summoned) enemies is another potential threat – to address this I’ve pulled Area Attack out of Savage Species, which lets us attack every Large-size or smaller enemy in a semi-circle out to our reach. It’s… unclear if this is actually a melee attack as such, it’s described as an ‘attack’ but it doesn’t appear to involve an attack roll, you just do automatic damage to everyone in the area, but if it is an attack, Knock-Down should kick in to trip and give you an extra attack (with your actual weapon damage, Power Attack, etc.) on every enemy you hit. For single big foes, quadrupling your already enormous damage with Diamond Nightmare Blade will put the hurt on any target, and Swooping Dragon Strike provides another source of stunning, this time on Fort instead of Will.

So, I was looking at the Customised Half-Fiend templates article pondering if using the classic Half-Goristo template was too obvious a way of achieving Huge size, and if I could afford the massive LA of stacking Half-Fiend on top of the existing LA from some large-sized race option, when I decided to read all the other customised half-fiend templates, and noticed just how incredibly badly written and edited and templated they are, and what wonderful opportunities this provides. The sugliin is Frostburn’s only reach weapon, and also has extremely high damage, which only benefits from being increased to Gargantuan size. WotC naturally had to saddle it with a drawback to balance out the game-breaking advantage of 2 average extra damage vs the greatsword: you can only attack with it as a full-round action, unless you pay a 2-feat tax. Of course, martial strikes bypass this, by having a specific action cost to use them and then creating a melee attack as part of resolving them – but you know what else bypasses that, and in fact lets you attack completely for free? Attacks of opportunity. And as a Gargantuan creature wielding a reach weapon, our range for attacks of opportunity is absolutely enormous: 40 feet in every direction. And of course attacks of opportunity (and our other free attacks) benefit from being made using a weapon that does massive amounts of damage in a single hit.
Okay, but that’s not how the Customised Half-Fiend templates work.
Oh yes it is. Read over the Half-Molydeus template again. That Size And Type line just says “Gargantuan Outsider”. The Monster Manual is very clear on how templates work. If a template doesn’t change an aspect, that line is supposed to either not be there or specify “unchanged”. The basic Half-Fiend template in the Monster Manual, and the part IV article’s customised half-fiend templates, show what you’re supposed to put when a template doesn’t change size: “unchanged size”, or “size is unchanged”, or something to that effect. The Half-Molydeus template doesn’t say any of that. It says “Gargantuan Outsider”. It doesn’t say “Gargantuan Outsider (when applied to a base Gargantuan creature)”. It ought to, but it doesn’t. Whoever was writing the templates just assumed it was okay to write the templates as though they were only ever going to be applied to the one creature they were already being applied to. But that’s not how templates work. That Size and Type: Gargantuan Outsider line means, very clearly by the Monster Manual rules of how templates work on p291, that any creature this customised variant of the Half-Fiend template is applied to becomes a Gargantuan Outsider. Regardless of previous size. Regardless of what the Customised Half-Fiends Part 1 article might imply.
Okay, but you can’t trip with the sugliin, it’s not a trip weapon.
Doesn’t matter. Neither Knock-Down nor Shock Trooper say anything about trip weapons, or even about the trip attempt being made with the weapon you hit with. You just… make a trip attempt. It just happens.
Okay, but… what’s with the goalie thing?
I have no idea, really. The antlers on the sugliin made me think of moose, which made me think of Canada, which made me think of ice hockey. It works, though, he does defend an area and he does shove enemies around and fling them across the ground like hockey pucks.

As with any big smashy fighter build, Patrick’s Will save is horrendous. Fortunately, unlike most big smashy fighter builds, Patrick has built-in SR 30 throughout his career, and as far as I know there are no Will-based SR: No save-or-die spells. You’re still vulnerable to illusions, though, and can be stymied for a while by a Sanctuary spell. While DR 10/cold iron is some protection against being slowly whittled down with a hail of arrows from beyond your range, a ranged build that can reliably out-damage your DR or one that brought a quiver of cold iron arrows is a serious threat. Also, as with most of these builds but even more so for being Gargantuan rather than just Huge, Patrick faces the natural challenges of… well, being Gargantuan. You can’t fit through most doors or down tight corridors, you’ll have trouble finding a bed at the inn, and so on. On the other hand, you can completely block a standard ice hockey goal by just standing in front of it. No wonder they had to change the rules.

Customised Half-Fiend template, Half-Molydeus: Monster Manual Web Enhancement “Half-Fiendish Variety”, part 3: https://web.archive.org/web/20161101184250/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=3
Customised Half-Fiend templates, part 4: https://web.archive.org/web/20161031212722/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070209a
Warblade, Warblade maneuvers: Tome of Battle, p20-23 and p47-94
Sugliin: Frostburn, p76-78
Sugliin Mastery: Frostburn, p50
Knock-Down: Deities and Demigods p51/3.5 SRD, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown / Sword & Fist, p7
Knockback: Races of Stone p142
Mage Slayer: Monster Manual V, p85
Shock Trooper: Complete Warrior, p112
Area Attack: Savage Species, p30
Image: Pete Ryan, University of Washington Magazine, https://magazine.washington.edu/feature/the-kraken-are-coming-and-uw-has-its-tentacles-all-over-them/

Inevitability

2024-01-04, 04:36 AM

Putting a whole new meaning to 'getting in your armor'.

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/0529b8ea-5003-4fd7-97af-d40f527d4257/dfnyofz-7ff4ef43-aa13-4600-9ae5-d4a20dc7d079.jpg/v1/fit/w_512,h_512,q_70,strp/crossbow_mech_2_by_soulcreator789_dfnyofz-375w-2x.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9. eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZD QxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgy MjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaW dodCI6Ijw9NTEyIiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvMDUyOWI4ZWEtNTAw My00ZmQ3LTk3YWYtZDQwZjUyN2Q0MjU3XC9kZm55b2Z6LTdmZj RlZjQzLWFhMTMtNDYwMC05YWU1LWQ0YTIwZGM3ZDA3OS5qcGci LCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9NTEyIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aW NlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0.0HdeVJbce6AWn5w2woYd-aliQA31-i2DhU7Yw3WidFc

Icra N Deep Imaskari Psion 5/Psion Uncarnate 4/Fiend of Possession 5/Psion Uncarnate+6

Terria N Observant Psicrystal

Str 8
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 20
Wis 12
Cha 8
All ability increases to Intelligence.

Drevin sprinted down the cave hallway. He had been running deeper and deeper for hours, but the drow were almost on him. His maps didn't go this deep, and he had lost his sword when he fought her way out of the drow prison. In front of him, the cave suddenly came to a halt. Sitting in the middle of the large tunnel was a suit of rusty plate mail with a pile of boulders neatly stacked next to it. It seemed there was no way out. Drevin looked closer at the armor, resolving to go down fighting. The armor was of strange make, metal, perhaps mithral, with embedded gems on the chest plate and helm. Attached to the left arm was a pair of massive, crossbow-like contraptions, already loaded, on each side. On the right were a pair of harpoons clipped to the gauntlet.
Even weird armor was better than nothing, so Drevin started to put it on. The drow would arrive soon, but he could don armor quickly. The arm guards and gauntlets were especially awkward, but he was eventually able to put them on. As he lowered the helmet over his head, he suddenly heard a high pitched voice in his head.
“This is autonomous weapons unit one. Callsign Vengeance of Imaskar. Who is piloting?”
“What’s going on?” he asked in return. “What are you?”
“I am Terria, the communications and optics attachment of Vengeance of Imaskar. Who are you?”
“I’m Drevin Steanheart,” he replied, still confused.
“That name's not in our database, but if you wear the armor, our prime directive is to protect you.”
“Thanks, I suppose. Wait- what’s happening!”
Around Drevin, the armor suddenly started to expand. He found himself in the middle of a huge space bounded by metal on all sides. There was a ladder in the back part of the new space, the expanded armor he supposed, and he took it up into what must have been the helmet. The visor was closed, so he couldn’t see out the front, but the helmet was large enough to hold him comfortably.
“What’s going on?” he asked again.
In front of him came Terria’s voice, this time coming from a crystal embedded in the helm. “Vengeance of Imaskar is powering up again.” Then the voice seemed to lose interest in him, but continued speaking. “Movement capabilities, online. Harpoons, online. Long range offensive abilities, online. Injury dampening, online but inactive. Optics, online but inactive. Communications, online. Psionic shield, online. Auxiliary power, online. Power donation, online.”
Then the voice seemed to turn back towards Drevin. “Standard new operator questionnaire: 1, do you wish to be attached to the optical sensors? 2, Are you psionic? 3, Do you wish to have your injuries dampened?”
Drevin considered. He still had no idea what this thing was, probably a rogue construct of some sort, but it seemed like his best chance of getting out of here alive. “Yes, no and yes,” he responded.
“Very well.” Drevin suddenly felt the wounds he had suffered in his earlier fights with the drow disappear, and then he could see out the front of the armor. At the end of the tunnel, drow were coming into view.
“Do you wish to engage?” the crystal asked.
“Yes, please.” Drevin replied.
“Very well.”
As the drow drew closer, some forty of them with several riding massive spiders, the armor sprung into action. First, the boulders which had been sitting by it sprang up and flew at the drow, bowling over most of the front line. Then the two crossbows, now the size of ballistas, fired, striking two priestesses in the rear of the line. The remaining drow continued the charge, and as the two largest spiders reached near the armor, the harpoons from the other armor flew out and struck each of the spiders. Then the armor threw punches that sent drow flying while they struggled to get through the armor. As it fought, the crystal suddenly spoke again to Drevin. “How long has it been since we were last activated?” she asked.
“I don’t know,” he replied. “It’s 1372 DR right now.”
“It seems it has been a long time, then.” the crystal replied. “We last powered down defending the retreat underground. Most of the mech core had already been destroyed, and we were one of the last to cover the retreat to the redoubt. I do not even recognize that calendar.”
As the crystal finished talking, the few remaining drow started to retreat.
“I suppose that’s that, then.” Drevin said. “Thank you. Though I’m still not sure what you are, I think you saved my life.”
“You’re welcome,” Terria replied, and then fell silent.
Drevin considered. “Are there others out there like you?” he asked.
“I don’t know. We were more common when Imaskar was still strong. The mecha core was designed to protect the empire at all costs. We carried elite battle mages into battle, protecting them from harm while they weaved their spells. But it seems we failed. Imaskar has fallen. Perhaps there are others, like me, who went dormant, though I know not.”
“What do you want to do now?” he asked.
“I suppose we’ll protect you.” Terria answered. “Though we’re no longer bound to obey our pilot, you seem nice enough for now.”

Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Reflex Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
1st Psion 1 0 0 0 2 Concentration 4 (+4), Knowledge (Psionics) 4 (+4), Knowledge (Arcana) 4 (+4), Psicraft 4 (+4), Hide 2 (+2) CC, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 4 (+4), Craft (Armorsmithing) 4 (+4) Otherworldly, Psicrystal Affinity (B)
2nd Psion 2 1 0 0 3 Concentration 5 (+1), Knowledge (Psionics) 5 (+1), Knowledge (Arcana) 5 (+1), Psicraft 5 (+1), Hide 2 1/2 (+1/2) CC, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 5 (+1), Craft (Armorsmithing) 5 (+1)
3rd Psion 3 1 1 1 3 Concentration 6 (+1), Knowledge (Psionics) 6 (+1), Knowledge (Arcana) 6 (+1), Psicraft 6 (+1), Hide 3 (+1/2) CC, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 6 (+1), Craft (Armorsmithing) 6 (+1) Craft Universal Item
4th Psion 4 2 1 1 4 Concentration 7 (+1), Knowledge (Psionics) 7 (+1), Knowledge (Arcana) 7 (+1), Psicraft 7 (+1), Hide 3 1/2 (+1/2) CC, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 7 (+1), Craft (Armorsmithing) 7 (+1)
5th Psion 5 2 1 1 4 Concentration 8 (+1), Knowledge (Psionics) 8 (+1), Knowledge (Arcana) 8 (+1), Psicraft 8 (+1), Hide 4 (+1/2) CC, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 8 (+1), Craft (Armorsmithing) 8 (+1) Psionic Body (B)
6th Psion Uncarnate 1 2 1 1 6 Concentration 9 (+1), Knowledge (Psionics) 9 (+1), Knowledge (Arcana) 8, Psicraft 9 (+1), Hide 4 1/2 (+1/2) CC, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 9 (+1), Craft (Armorsmithing) 9 (+1), Autohypnosis 1 (+1) Magical Artisan (Craft Universal Item) Incorporeal Touch 1d6, Uncarnate Armor
7th Psion Uncarnate 2 3 1 1 7 Concentration 10 (+1), Knowledge (Psionics) 10 (+1), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Psicraft 10 (+1), Hide 5 (+1/2) CC, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 10 (+1), Craft (Armorsmithing) 10 (+1), Autohypnosis 2 (+1) Shed Body 1/day
8th Psion Uncarnate 3 3 2 2 7 Concentration 11 (+1), Knowledge (Psionics) 11 (+1), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Psicraft 11 (+1), Hide 5 1/2 (+1/2) CC, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 11 (+1), Craft (Armorsmithing) 11 (+1), Autohypnosis 4 (+2) Assume Equipment
9th Psion Uncarnate 4 4 2 2 8 Concentration 12 (+1), Knowledge (Psionics) 12 (+1), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Psicraft 12 (+1), Hide 6 (+1/2) CC, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12 (+1), Craft (Armorsmithing) 12 (+1), Autohypnosis 6 (+2) Exotic Weapon Proficency (Harpoon) Assume Likeness
10th Fiend of Possession 1 4 4 4 10 Concentration 12, Knowledge (Psionics) 12, Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Psicraft 12, Hide 12 (+6), Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12, Craft (Armorsmithing) 12, Autohypnosis 8, Ecstatic Fervor Ethereal Form, Hide Prescence, Possess Object
11th Fiend of Possession 2 4 5 5 10 Concentration 12, Knowledge (Psionics) 12, Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Psicraft 12, Hide 12, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12, Craft (Armorsmithing) 12, Autohypnosis 8, Search 6 (+6), Ecstatic Fervor, Swift Concentration Curse, Magic Item
12th Fiend of Possession 3 5 6 6 11 Concentration 12, Knowledge (Psionics) 12, Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Psicraft 12, Hide 12, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12, Craft (Armorsmithing) 12, Autohypnosis 8, Search 14 (+8), Ecstatic Fervor, Swift Concentration Practiced Manifester Control Object
13th Fiend of Possession 4 5 6 6 11 Concentration 12, Knowledge (Psionics) 12, Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Psicraft 12, Hide 16 (+4), Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12, Craft (Armorsmithing) 12, Autohypnosis 8, Search 16 (+2), Ecstatic Fervor, Swift Concentration, Collector of Stories Animate Object, Possess Creature
14th Fiend of Possession 5 6 6 6 12 Concentration 12, Knowledge (Psionics) 12, Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Psicraft 12, Hide 17 (+1), Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12, Craft (Armorsmithing) 12, Autohypnosis 8, Search 17 (+1), Sense Motive 6 (+6), Ecstatic Fervor, Swift Concentration, Collector of Stories Ally or enemy, Possess Noncontinuous Object
15th Psion Uncarnate 5 6 6 6 12 Concentration 12, Knowledge (Psionics) 12, Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Psicraft 12, Hide 17, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12, Craft (Armorsmithing) 12, Autohypnosis 14 (+8), Search 17, Sense Motive 6, Ecstatic Fervor, Swift Concentration, Collector of Stories Expanded Knowledge (Psionic Repair Damage) Incorporeal Touch 2d6
16th Psion Uncarnate 6 7 7 7 13 Concentration 12, Knowledge (Psionics) 12, Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Psicraft 16 (+4), Hide 17, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12, Craft (Armorsmithing) 12, Autohypnosis 19 (+5), Search 17, Sense Motive 6, Ecstatic Fervor, Swift Concentration, Collector of Stories Shed Body 2/day
17th Psion Uncarnate 7 7 7 7 13 Concentration 16 (+4), Knowledge (Psionics) 12, Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Psicraft 20 (+4), Hide 17, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12, Craft (Armorsmithing) 12, Autohypnosis 20 (+1), Search 17, Sense Motive 6, Ecstatic Fervor, Swift Concentration, Collector of Stories Telekinetic Force
18th Psion Uncarnate 8 8 7 7 15 Concentration 21 (+5), Knowledge (Psionics) 12, Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Psicraft 21 (+1), Hide 17, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12, Craft (Armorsmithing) 12, Autohypnosis 21 (+1), Search 17, Sense Motive 6, Ecstatic Fervor, Swift Concentration, Collector of Stories Expanded Knowledge (Schism) Uncarnate Bridge
19th Psion Uncarnate 9 8 8 8 14 Concentration 22 (+1), Knowledge (Psionics) 18 (+6), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Psicraft 22 (+1), Hide 17, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12, Craft (Armorsmithing) 12, Autohypnosis 22 (+1), Search 17, Sense Motive 6, Ecstatic Fervor, Swift Concentration, Collector of Stories Incorporeal Touch 3d6
20th Psion Uncarnate 10 - 9 8 8 15 Concentration 22 (+1), Knowledge (Psionics) 18 (+6), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Psicraft 22 (+1), Hide 17, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 12, Craft (Armorsmithing) 12, Autohypnosis 22 (+1), Search 17, Sense Motive 6, Ecstatic Fervor, Swift Concentration, Collector of Stories Uncarnate

Level Class Manifester Level Power Points (Includes Bonus) Powers Known
1st Psion 1 1 4 Vigor, Intertial Armor, Mind Thrust
2nd Psion 2 2 11 Offensive Precogntion, Sense Link
3rd Psion 3 3 18 Empathic Transfer, Animal Affinity
4th Psion 4 4 27 Share Pain, Bestow Power
5th Psion 5 5 37 Telekinetic Thrust, Hustle
6th Psion Uncarnate 1 5 37
7th Psion Uncarnate 2 6 50 Solicit Psicrystal, Damp Power
8th Psion Uncarnate 3 7 67 Metamorphosis, Psionic Levitate
9th Psion Uncarnate 4 7 67
10th Fiend of Possession 1 7 67
11th Fiend of Possession 2 7 67
12th Fiend of Possession 3 11 67
13th Fiend of Possession 4 11 67
14th Fiend of Possession 5 11 67
15th Psion Uncarnate 5 12 82 Telekinetic Force, Intellect Fortress, Psionic Repair Damage (Feat)
16th Psion Uncarnate 6 13 103 Power Restistace, Psionic Revivify
17th Psion Uncarnate 7 13 103
18th Psion Uncarnate 8 14 123 Restore Extremity, Psionic Plane Shift, Schism (Feat)
19th Psion Uncarnate 9 15 144 Psionic Overland Flight
20th Psion Uncarnate 10 15 144

Icra, the Deep Imaskari component of Vengeance of Imaskar, is just a normal egoist at these levels. Otherworldly gives her some nice perks, such as Darkvision, and the increased intelligence is great for a Psion. Psicrystal Affinity gives her Terria, an observant psicrystal. Terria, like other psicrystals, gets feats. In her case, she chooses Hidden Talent (Sense Link), which doesn’t really come in handy until later. At 3rd, Terria takes Overchannel, another part of a later combo, and at 6th-18th, she takes Psionic Talent. Her power choices are pretty standard, with Inertial Armor and Vigor keeping her alive and Mind Thrust being her main offensive option. Later on, Sense Link lets Terria scout for her and Empathic Transfer makes healing for the party more efficient. Craft Universal Item isn’t useful yet, but will be later. 5th level brings third level power, including the well loved Hustle and Telekinetic thrust, both of which are powerful options. Glots of various sizes are good choices for telekinesis, as they are fairly light and do decent damage if larger sized. Psionic Body lets her qualify for Psion Uncarnate but also significantly boosts her hitpoints, which is welcome.

Now, Icra learns to leave her body behind with Psion Uncarnate under the tutelage of the rest of the Imaskari Mech Corps. The first level is pretty terrible, giving Incorporeal touch, which is pretty bad, and Uncarnate Armor, which is fine, but doesn’t actually do anything until later on. Second level is better, advancing Icra’s powers and giving her Shed Body 1/day, which is quite nice, letting her turn incorporeal and making her powers slightly harder to resist. This means she can fight quite well in one big fight a day. Uncarnate 3/level eight brings fourth level powers, in this case Metamorphosis. Obviously, it is already powerful, but Otherworldly makes it even better for Icra, as she counts as an outsider. Learning Metamorphosis lets her start crafting a Psychoactive Skin of the Proteus at this level. Ninth level brings Assume Likeness, which helps Icra be an infiltrator. During this level, she should finish crafting the Skin. With Magical Artisan, it costs her 30,750 gold pieces and 2460 xp, which is within her wealth by level, 36,000 at 9th level. This allows her to permanently assume the form of an outsider with the evil subtype, usually an inconspicuous Imp. This in turn lets her qualify for Fiend of Possession. First level lets her turn ethereal, which lets her use her incorporeal touch attack and Assume Likeness abilities at will. She can also conceal her presence in an object and still manifest, which lets Terria carry Icra into places and helps Icra avoid enemy attention.

Fiend of Possession level two brings Curse and Magic Item. Magic Item lets Icra buff someone’s weapon or armor while still being able to use powers. Curse is weird, but it probably lets her possess, say, the floor to debuff all of the enemies in the area. Level three brings Control Object. At this level, Icra uses her crafting skills to make or buy a size colossal Icechucker, which she can fire using Control Object, doing sweet 8d6 damage, plus the enhancements she gives it. Finally, at 4th level Icra’s main trick comes in. Now, she can actually animate up to a size gargantuan object. At this level her choice is spiked armor, ideally made from adamantine or mithral. This would normally be prohibitively expensive, but by applying the Sizing weapon property to size medium armor (with spikes, so it counts as a weapon), Icra can get it up to whatever size she chooses. Of course, it is still armor so she can effectively pilot it as a mech. Now, the way I read it, “reading one” Animate Objects, the Fiend of Possession ability, duplicates the spell, which animates the object for rounds equal to your caster level and doesn’t require anything from you after that. This effectively means that Icra is piloting a size gargantuan mech and can still act on her own independently while the construct smashes stuff. The other reading “reading two,” I see is that Icra basically becomes the armor, taking its physical stats but still being able to take purely mental actions, such as powers. The build works under either interpretation, though it changes the effectiveness of different abilities. At fifth level, Icra can animate colossal, noncontinuous objects, which in my reading allows her to affix Icechuckers and harpoons to the armor, effectively arming the mech.

Assuming this works, here is a basic outline of the Mech’s abilities.

Movement: The base speed is 20ft, and under reading two can hustle and levitate to increase movement speed and range.

Melee capabilities: Slam deals 4d6+13 and is effectively a +5 weapon with properties chosen by Icra. Under reading two will be buffed by animal affinity and offensive precognition.

Ranged capabilities: Hurled size colossal glots do 3d6 damage each, and Icra can throw a number equal to her manifester level. When augmented can use razor skip disks for 4d6 damage each. Can also throw one harpoon, two when augmented, which do 8d6 damage each and grapple foes, basically trapping them in melee range. Also, as a move action (including from Hustle), Icra can fire a mounted Icechucker for 8d6 damage using Control Object. Under reading one, the attack bonus on the ranged attacks is lower, but the armor itself can fight in melee, while under reading two, the attack bonus is much higher, but Icra has to choose between the two. Most projectiles will carry Bestow Curse from FoP’s curse ability, adding a nasty rider to attacks when Icra has time to prepare.

Senses: Sense Link manifested by Terria lets Icra and the mech or a rider overcome the limits on vision placed by Possess Object/being inside a giant suit of armor. With Overchannel she can augment it to let the other person see through the manifester, letting them see.

Damage Repair: Icra can use craft to repair damage to the mech, albeit slowly for now. Vigor both helps keep the Mech alive and provides a damage buffer to Terria.

Wearer protecting abilities: Empathic Transfer and Share Pain allow Icra and Terria to absorb the wounds of the one wearing the armor. Bestow Power can also buff the wearer if they happen to be psionic though Icra doesn’t have too many power points to spare.

At 15th level, Icra returns to Psion Uncarnate, learning Psionic Repair damage, making repair much easier, Telekinetic Force, allowing her or Terria, with Solicit Psicrystal, to reload the Icechuckers, and Intellect Fortress, protecting both the mech and the pilot. Ideally, at this point Icra can use Cognizance Crystals built into the armor as a power battery to recharge on off days, but it isn’t strictly necessary.

This section of levels are all in Psion Uncarnate and mostly just buff the mech or its pilot. 16th level brings Power Resistance and Revivify, allowing Icra to better protect the pilot. 17th doesn’t advance manifesting, but it does effectively let Icra use telekinetic force at will, which helps her stretch her power points further. 18th brings Uncarnate Bridge, which is fun if not amazing, Psionic Planeshift, which is a good escape card, Restore Extremity, and Schism, which lets Icra concentrate on two powers at once, fire more Icechuckers per round, or even manifest two powers, albeit one much weaker one. 19th’s sole new power is Overland Flight, giving the mech actual flight for the first time. 20th level brings Uncarnate, which doesn’t actually increase Icra’s power but is more of a flavor choice that keeps her permanently incorporeal, unless she’s possessing something, like the mech. By now, Icra should be able to afford an adamantine mech, making it virtually impossible to actually destroy.

Psion, Psion Uncarnate, powers not cited elsewhere, Psicrystal Affinity, Craft Universal Item, Psionic Body, and Expanded Knowledge- EPH
Fiend of Possession- Fiend Folio
Otherworldly, Magical Artisan- Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Deep Imaskari- Underdark
Frostburn- various weapons
Complete Psionic- Practiced Manifester, Damp Power
Picture- https://www.deviantart.com/soulcreator789/art/crossbow-mech-2-947241791

Inevitability

2024-01-04, 04:38 AM

He is altogether on somebody's side, because somebody is altogether on his.

https://cdn2.myminifactory.com/assets/object-assets/626e0b3cb55a0/images/720X720-garamoud-ent-of-the-world-tree.jpg

It was long ago. Group of halflings fled persecution. They were orcs ravagers. They devastated the surrounding lands and ruined halflings' village as well. Fortunately, most of them managed to escape. But now... They all were exhausted, there were children, women and old men between them. They couldn’t run anymore. Place where they stopped was a forest, the very thicket. They hoped to hide there, but everything looks as though that hope had not been fulfilled - they left too many traces to escape successfully. Band of orcs should have caught them up at the latest by evening.
But that wasn’t all. When they stopped near a big old spruce, it moved. It plucked her roots from the ground and turned to them:
- Go away! Go away little pests! - yelled the tree.
There was one brave halfling between all, he was a paladin and knight. Without him all others were dead already. He stepped forward to the angry tree:
- Listen, friend, we aren't pests. We don't cut trees or kill animals. We just ran from the evildoers and we are exhausted now. We can't go away right now. And even if we can... There are orcs after us. That's real pests. We brought them here, it would be unworthy to leave you alone against them, Keeper of the Forest. We, together, could fight them back. Let us stay.
- Orcs! I hate orcs! - tree responded, - You can stay and help, I agree.
- Thank you, Keeper of the Forest, - paladin bowed to tree gratefully, - We have youngsters and weak with us, please show me where they can hide.
- Sprouts... - spruce glanced at the crowd, - I'll show you hideout for them.
- Thank you again, Keeper, could I ask one more favor. Could my people take deadfallen wood to make fire for themselves? I promise we shall be very careful and the fire will be under control. Our... sprouts could die of the cold.
- Fire!!! I hate fire! But... I understand. There are several dead woods and I'd allow you to use them, but there is no free place and I can't let you light a fire near my brothers!
- Keeper, you are the treant, right? - knight asked, - And you could ask another tree to move.
- Yes, I am, - tree said, - But I could ask to move only one or two of my brothers and if I ask another - they returned to their places.
- Oh! - paladin smiled, - I could help you with it. Just point the right place to one of your brothers and I dispel animation. He will take root right there.

It was start of big friendship. With treant's help hobbits have successfully fought off the orc gang. While the wounded and the weakened recovered, paladin helped Fir, it's treant's name, to repost trees which grew up in the unfortunate places. One by one, and it’s been a month. Fir accustomed to halflings around, found them useful and pleasing. Paladin, who was Mystic Fire Knight, told Fir many stories about himself, about his order and his religion. And Fir developed an interest. He, of course, didn't became a paladin, but he found way of Shooting Star Rangers suitable for himself.

NG Treant Skilled City-Dweller Shooting Star Crowd-Walker Ranger 8
Abilities Initial Treant 8th 12th Total
STR 16 18 1 1 36
DEX 12 -2 10
CON 16 10 26
INT 14 2 16
WIS 10 6 16
CHA 8 2 10

ECL (+5 LA) Class BAB Fort Reflex Will Skills Feats Class Features
6th Plant HD 1 0 2 0 0 20: {+4} Diplomacy: 4; {+4} Hide: 4; {+4} Sense Motive: 4; {+4} Spot: 4; {+4} Survival: 4; Power Attack (1st) Animate trees, double damage against objects, DR 10/slashing, low-light vision, plant traits, trample 2d6+13, vulnerability to fire
7th Plant HD 2 1 3 0 0 5: {+1} Diplomacy: 5; {+1} Hide: 5; {+1} Sense Motive: 5; {+1} Spot: 5; {+1} Survival: 5;
8th Plant HD 3 2 3 1 1 5: {+1} Diplomacy: 6; {+1} Hide: 6; {+1} Sense Motive: 6; {+1} Spot: 6; {+1} Survival: 6; Improved Sunder (3rd)
9th Plant HD 4 3 4 1 1 5: {+1} Diplomacy: 7; {+1} Hide: 7; {+1} Sense Motive: 7; {+1} Spot: 7; {+1} Survival: 7;
10th Plant HD 5 3 4 1 1 5: {+1} Diplomacy: 8; {+1} Hide: 8; {+1} Sense Motive: 8; {+1} Spot: 8; {+1} Survival: 8;
11th Plant HD 6 4 5 2 2 5: {+1} Diplomacy: 9; {+1} Hide: 9; {+1} Sense Motive: 9; {+1} Spot: 9; {+1} Survival: 9; Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Iuak) (6th)
12th Plant HD 7 5 5 2 2 5: {+1} Diplomacy: 10; {+1} Hide: 10; {+1} Sense Motive: 10; {+1} Spot: 10; {+1} Survival: 10;
13th Skilled City-Dweller Ranger 1 6 7 4 2 9: Diplomacy: 10; {+1} Hide: 11; {+1} Jump: 1; {+3} Move Silently: 3; Sense Motive: 10; {+1} Spot: 11; {+1} Survival: 11; {+2} Tumble: 2; Track (Ranger bonus) 1st favored enemy (orc), Track, wild empathy
14th Ranger 2 7 8 5 2 9: Diplomacy: 10; {+1} Hide: 12; {+1} Jump: 2; {+3} Move Silently: 6; Sense Motive: 10; {+1} Spot: 12; {+1} Survival: 12; {+2} Tumble: 4; Combat Brute (9th), Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat style) Combat style
15th Shooting Star Ranger 3 8 8 5 3 9: Diplomacy: 10; {+1} Hide: 13; {+2} Jump: 4; {+2} Move Silently: 8; Sense Motive: 10; {+1} Spot: 13; {+1} Survival: 13; {+2} Tumble: 6; Weavespeak
16th Shooting Star Ranger 4 9 9 6 3 9: Diplomacy: 10; {+1} Hide: 14; Jump: 4; {+2} Move Silently: 10; Sense Motive: 10; {+3} Spellcraft: 3; {+1} Spot: 14; Survival: 13; {+2} Tumble: 8; Bonus spells, improved spellcasting
17th Ranger 5 10 9 6 3 9: Diplomacy: 10; {+1} Hide: 15; {+1} Jump: 5; {+2} Move Silently: 12; Sense Motive: 10; Spellcraft: 3; {+1} Spot: 15; {+2} Survival: 15; {+2} Tumble: 10; Craft Wand (12th) 2nd favored enemy (constuct)
18th Ranger 6 11 10 7 4 9: Diplomacy: 10; {+1} Hide: 16; {+1} Jump: 6; {+2} Move Silently: 14; Sense Motive: 10; Spellcraft: 3; {+1} Spot: 16; {+1} Survival: 16; {+3} Tumble: 13; Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Improved combat style) Improved combat style
19th Crowd-Walker Ranger 7 12 10 7 4 9: Diplomacy: 10; {+1} Hide: 17; {+1} Jump: 7; {+2} Move Silently: 16; Sense Motive: 10; Spellcraft: 3; {+1} Spot: 17; {+1} Survival: 17; {+3} Tumble: 16; Crowd-Walker
20th Shooting Star Ranger 8 13 11 8 4 9: Diplomacy: 10; {+1} Hide: 18; {+1} Jump: 8; {+2} Move Silently: 18; Sense Motive: 10; {+1} Spellcraft: 4; {+1} Spot: 18; {+1} Survival: 18; {+2} Tumble: 18; Two-Weapon Rend (15th) Bonus spells, expanded spell list

Level Class 1st 2nd
16th Ranger 4 1+1
17th Ranger 5 1+1
18th Ranger 6 2+1
19th Ranger 7 2+1
20th Ranger 8 2+1 1+1

Useful spells.
Rhino's Rush (Spell Compendium, p. 176), Lion's Charge (Spell Compendium, p. 133), Resist Energy (Player's Handbook, p. 272), Bear's Endurance (Player's Handbook, p. 203), Camouflage (Spell Compendium, p. 43) and its Mass version (Spell Compendium, p. 43), Cure Light Wounds (Player's Handbook, p. 215), Animalistic Power (Player's Handbook II, p. 101), See Invisibility (Player's Handbook, p. 272, Champions of Valor, p. 50).

Almost regular treant. With slightly unusual weapon which compliments his double damage against objects ability and Improved Sunder feat.
Fir has TWF now and uses two Iuaks. With Sundering Cleave maneuver he is able to use his Sunder even better.
There are very useful spells in the ranger's spelllist, but the amount of spells always is an issue, even Shooting Star doesn't solve the problem. But wands and wand chambers (Dungeonscape, p. 34) could. And with Craft Wand feat Fir could always be sure he has needed wand.
Extra off-hand attack and Two-Weapon Rend feat. Usefulness of additional attack is obvious and Rend is a good source of damage. Yes, d6 isn't big dice, but 1-1/2 strength (for somebody with Str 36) is big numbers enough.

Type Name Book Page
Race Treant Monster Manual 244
Class Ranger Players Handbook 46
Class variant Skilled City-Dweller Web Enhancements Cityscape, Part 1 (https://web.archive.org/web/20201112031718/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)
Class variant Shooting Star Champions of Valor 50
Class variant Crowd-Walker Web Enhancements Cityscape, Part 1 (https://web.archive.org/web/20201112031718/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)
Feat Power Attack Players Handbook 98
Feat Improved Sunder Players Handbook 96
Feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency Players Handbook 94
Feat Track Players Handbook 101
Feat Combat Brute Complete Warrior 110
Feat Two-Weapon Fighting Players Handbook 102
Feat Craft Wand Players Handbook 92
Feat Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Players Handbook 96
Feat Two-Weapon Rend Players Handbook II 84
Weapon Iuak Frostburn 77

Inevitability

2024-01-04, 04:39 AM

He's on a roaring rampage of treevenge!

Madleaf the Corpse Tree
CE Treant | Treant 12/Crusader 3/ Warhulk 5
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/76/47/f3/7647f339112f9f89386083a1c8a3cdee.jpg

I used to have a nice life. Truly, I did. I stood tall in the center of a small Neanderthal village. They often danced around me on festive days. I especially liked winter's soliciste because they decorated me with cute ornaments. It was a quiet and calm life until that fateful day. My village was attacked by a tribe of Uldra. The slaughter was unbearable. They killed everyone even the children in cold blood. What for, you ask? The one thing rare up here in the frozen lands; food. [...]
After the massacre I stood there for several years, too stunned to act. Over time I began to miss the festivities so much that I began to despise the Uldra for what they had done. [...]
Eventually, my hatred grew enough that I stood up and began what is now known as the Great Hunt. For an eternity I began to travel the frozen lands and stalk every uldra, every mammoth, and any other lifeform that displeased me. I killed them all and manufactured their corpses into my new ornaments.[...] Fortunately for me the endless years of hunting and killing have formed my gray matter into mush. I can feel myself becoming dumber and dumber with each year that passes on. I pray that the painful memories of my past are erased by this eventually.
- Excerpts from the personal Memoaire of a mad Treant, published by High Evoker Ignar

A note for the build table. I wanted to build a character for lvl 1-20 and not something that starts off with LA+X and thus isn't fully feasible in a real game. So I made the decision to use the SavageSpecies Table of the Treeant. The bonuses at the End as well as the Amount of HD, Saves, BAB, … are 90% equivalent to the Treeant from MM1 bearing one exception. The LA+5 Treant in the D&D3.5e Monster Manual has 16 (+6) Wisdom and the 3.0 one used for Savage Species has 14 (+4) Wisdom. In order to use the newest version of the treeant a +2 Wisdom was added for the last level of the treant race.
If one wants to use the LA, then nothing really changes except the early game may be more punishing for the character.

Level Table

Level Hitdice Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
1st 1d8 Treant 0 2 0 0 Hide +4 | Intimidate +4 Combat Reflexes, Standstill | Flaw: Inattentive 4 natural armor
2nd 2d8 Treant 1 3 0 0 Hide +5 | Intimidate +5 +2STR | +2Con
3rd 2d8 Treant 1 3 0 0 Hide +5 | Intimidate +5 +2STR | +2Con
4th 3d8 Treant 2 3 1 1 Hide +6 | Intimidate +6 Exotic Weapon Proficency (Ritiik) 6 natural armor | +2Str | +2Wis
5th 3d8 Treant 2 3 1 1 Hide +6 | Intimidate +6 2 Str | 2 Con | 8 natural armor
6th 4d8 Treant 3 4 1 1 Hide +7 | Intimidate +7 Large Size (Face 10ft) reach 10ft fire vulnerability | +2Str | -2Dex
7th 4d8 Treant 3 4 1 1 Hide +7 | Intimidate +7 Trample (Small) | double damage against objects
8th 5d8 Treant 3 4 1 1 Hide +8 | Intimidate +8 Animate trees (1), |+2 Str | +2 Cha | DR 5/slashing
9th 5d8 Treant 3 4 1 1 Hide +8 | Intimidate +8 10 natural armor | +2 Str | +2 Wis
10th 6d8 Treant 4 5 2 2 Hide +9 | Intimidate +9 Power Attack 2 Str | +2 Con
11th 6d8 Treant 4 5 2 2 Hide +9 | Intimidate +9 Animate trees (2) | +2 Con | 13 natural armor
12th 7d8 Treant 5 5 2 2 Hide +10 | Intimidate +10 Huge size (face 15 ft.) | reach 15 ft.| +2 Str | –2 Dex | +2 Wis | trample (Medium-size) | DR 10/slashing
13th 7d8+1d10 Crusader 6 7 2 2 Hide +11 | Intimidate +11 | Skill Trick: Never Outnumbered Furious Counterstrike | Steely Resolve 5
14th 7d8+2d10 Crusader 7 8 2 2 Hide +12 | Intimidate +12 | Jump +2 Cleave Indomitable Soul
15th 7d8+3d10 Crusader 8 8 3 3 Hide +13 | Intimidate +13 | Jump +4 Zealous Surge
16th 7d8+3d10+1d12 Warhulk 8 10 3 3 Hide +14 | Intimidate +14 | Jump +4 No time to think | ability boost STR (+2)
17th 7d8+3d10+2d12 Warhulk 8 11 3 3 Hide +15 | Intimidate +15 | Jump +4 Improved Bullrush Great Swing | ability boost (+2)
18th 7d8+3d10+3d12 Warhulk 8 11 4 4 Hide +16 | Intimidate +16 | Jump +4 Mighty Rock Throwing | Ability boost Str (+2)
19th 7d8+3d10+4d12 Warhulk 8 12 4 4 Hide +17 | Intimidate +17 | Jump +4 Mighty Swing | Ability Boost Str (+2)
20th 7d8+3d10+5d12 Warhulk 8 12 4 4 Hide +18 | Intimidate +18 | Jump +4 Shock Trooper Ability Boost Str (+2)

Base Maneuvers Taken (Crusader1): Crusaders Strike, Vanguard Strike, Mountain Hammer, Foehammer, Charging Minotaur
Stance Taken (Crusader 1): Iron Guards Glare
Stance from Level up (Crusader 2): Thicket of Blades
Strike from Level up (Crusader 3): Defensive Rebuke

Stat Table
Level STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
Starting Stats 15 18 14 8 10 8
1st + Race 15 20 14 10 10 8
2nd 17 16
3rd 19 18
4th 21 12
5th 23 20
6th 25 19 (Statup)
7th
8th 27 10
9th 29 14
10th 31 22
11th 24
12th 33 17 16
13th 18 (Statup)
14th
15th
16th 35
17th 38 (Statup)
18th 40
19th 42
20th 44

General Info:
This is intended as Area/Opponent Lockdown using Standstill, Huge Size (and therefore reach), and the Ritiik Weapon to keep people stuck with us instead of our spellcasting friends in the back.

ECL 6:
Wohow, we grow large at this level, granting us much-needed reach. By this point, we also have acquired nice natural armor as well as our first few statbuffs. Before being large this build could be a bit delicate as most of our feats picked were taken in the expectation that eventually, we would grow in size. Now we have 10’ Range, Once someone enters that range we can either A, Stop them with Standstill or B, Lock them in with us via our Rittik. We are now acting as the party's typical Strenght-Dude with at least 2 possibilities of Stopping someone from approaching the backline. Decent Con/NatAC should help with Tanking.

ECL 11:
Animate trees is interesting, to say the least. We now effectively become an ambush predator, masquerading as a tree in the forest and once an unsuspecting victim comes to close we lock him into melee and our two treebroos start bashing him as well. If you are nice with your GM you may even get to give the treeants a feat selection instead of the basic one allowing for even better damage output (If you can give them Harpoons the chance that anyone will be able to leave combat outside of magical means is rather low.) Additionally, at this point, we have further increased our strength/con stat so we are still producing decent numbers but one can definitely notice that we took “monster levels” instead of Pounce Barbarian.

ECL 15:
Finally, CLASS LEVELS. In order to keep the trend of people being locked in melee with us one way or another we take Crusader to both help with Party Tanking via Iron Guards Glare, get some ways of overcoming damage reduction (something monsters which we are expecting to fight in frozen wastes tend to have plentifully) and the wonderful Thicket of Blades Stance. Even 5’ movement now allows us to react. Being a fully grown treant has also increased our range even further helping with the whole Standstill theme.
Crusader also gives us at least a minor boost against mages as well with Zealous Surge. The selection of classes has (and spoiler will) left us with real **** will and ref saves. This weakness should be carefully planned around by being the aforementioned ambush predator instead of “big dumb charge guy” because realistically its 1 Maximized fireball and we may be gone.
It should be noted that while expensive, at this point we are able to start using Armor/Shields as well giving us that extra bit of survivability by combining it with our 13 Natural armor.

ECL 20:
Well, we are hella Strong. Each level of Warhulk has bestowed upon us 2 additional strengths as well as the ability to use Ranged Rocks and Attack all the Targets that are so desperately stuck in our area of hooking via Mighty Swing. The issue of reaaaaally bad saves is still there however we may at least have the damage output (thanks to the very late but still welcome pickup of Shock Tropper) to Stop unprepared Enemy wizards from doing stuff should we ambush them together with our 2 Treebros. Having an effective Hide of 18(Skillranks)+16(Treeant Forest)+4(Dex)-8(Size)=>30+1d20 should help.

Treeant - MM1 (I used Savage Species for the progression, it gives almost the same features at the end at same HD, and LD and Features/Stats and this makes the entire thing playable from lvl1-20. Update to 3.5e 2 More Wisdom at last HD)
Crusader&Stances - Tome of Battle
Warhulk - Miniature Handbook
Combat Reflexes - Players Handbook
Exotic Weapon Prof - Players Handbook
Power Attack - Players Handbook
Cleave - Players Handbook
Improved Bullrush - Players Handbook
Shock Trooper - Complete Warrior
Stand Still - Expanded Psionics Handbook
Flaw - Unearthed Arcana
Weapon Ritiik - Frostburn

Inevitability

2024-01-04, 04:43 AM

Talk about being one with nature...

Hiccup
The Plant Mecha Knight
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/avatar/images/c/c1/Swamp_monster.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/200?cb=20130630222434

CG Huge Humanoid (aquatic, augmented aberration, augmented plant, human)
Symbiotic Tendriculos // (Amphibous Aquatic Human Fighter 2/ Artificer 5) Artificer 1/ Renegade Mastermaker 9

It’s no good. All the practice and all the willpower in the world isn’t enough to turn me into a capable warrior. I’m sorry father. The sugliin you wielded so skillfully is a dead weight in my hands, heavy and graceless. I nearly died in the pirate attack yesterday, and my weakness nearly cost us everything. I have failed my friends, my family, and my dreams.

No. No, no, no! I won’t let it end like this! I may not have father’s strength above the waves or mother’s grace below them, but I’ve never given up before! My tricks, my tools, my little experiments… if I can’t make myself strong enough to fight, I’ll make myself tools that do! I’ll train animals, grow alchemical plants, cobble together trinkets, build myself a whole new body if that’s what it takes! My brothers will scorn me, call me a cheater, a conjurer of cheap tricks, but what of it? My might may have failed me, but my artifice will not!

I hope.

What if you took Symbiotic Creature.

And used to represent a mecha and its pilot?

This character has a lot going on, so I’ve broken it up into categories. I tried to be pretty comprehensive in each spoiler, so there’s some redundancy between each one and the others, as well as the level breakpoints later in the build, but hopefully a reader won’t have to be constantly bouncing between various sections to understand what’s going on.

Artificer is the obvious base for such a mad science-y character concept. The Arms & Equipment Guide gives us the Tendriculos as a mount directed while literally riding inside of it; from there it’s a short step to try and optimize the process by taking direct control of the mount, using alchemy and magic to combine yourself with it. I also like the idea of a low-resources Artificer, not from a big house, living far to the north away from the big cities, having to make do with alchemical herbs and devices cobbled together from animal parts, rather than precision tools, refined metals, and magical libraries.

I picture this character as being a lot like Hiccup from “How To Train Your Dragon”. A physically weak child of a Viking clan, trying desperately to live up to the standards of his family. After giving it a valiant go (2 levels of fighter), he finally switches tactics, using clever inventions, tamed/crafted allies, and modifications to his own body to keep up. Actually, that’s so much better as a name than anything I’ve come up with, so… yeah, now his name is also Hiccup.

Why sugliin? Well, in-game it makes the most sense as a weapon to be passed down through the family, a storied relic that’s not quite practical. It also fits nicely with his story of struggling to use it; with his father no longer around, he doesn’t see that it’s a weapon that requires a ridiculous amount of experience to master, he only sees that his father mastered it and he cannot. There are also a few purely mechanical considerations. Reach and high damage are very good; this weapon scales better than just about anything else with size increases. That alone wouldn’t be worth 2 feats (it only comes out to +6 average damage over a greatsword at Gargantuan), but it does have one other major advantage over the greatsword and greataxe that is very easy to overlook. It does piercing damage. Why does that matter? It means that you don’t suffer any of the underwater fighting penalties*, giving you effectively +2 to hit and doubling your damage. With the possible exception of the lance, the sugliin is the best weapon for underwater combat.

When you upgrade to a Huge sugliin, make sure you make one with the Opposable quality (+1), so you can wield it with your natural weapons.

* Does that actually work? I mean, it still does slashing damage, right, so wouldn’t it still be subject to those penalties? Oh yes, it works. The Rules Compendium clarifies the interaction: “Such a creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and deals half damage, unless it’s using a piercing melee weapon or a natural weapon that strikes as a piercing weapon”. That could still be considered ambiguous for dual-damage-type weapons, but Stormwrack provides us an example with the feat Toothed Blow, which causes your Unarmed Strike to do both piercing and bludgeoning damage and states that “This allows you to avoid the penalties for using bludgeoning weapons underwater”. That’s a valid interpretation of RAW, backed by a clear illustration of RAI. Doesn’t get much better than that for these edge cases.

Hiccup is half-human and half-aquatic human, contributing to his complex about not fitting in. The Amphibious Creature template lets him function on land and in water, though the penalty to a physical score again reinforced his self-worth issues. You could also refluff this as a mad-science modification that he’s made to himself, which I quite like, but which doesn’t play nicely mechanically with an inherited-only template. Mechanically, using Aquatic Human as the base gives us a full 30ft speed for both land and swimming.

My latest experiments have yielded success. I may not have the tools of House Cannith, but the scraps I make do with have proven sufficient. I haven’t come up with anything to make my body stronger, but I’ve tweaked it beneficially nonetheless. By integrating my muscles and organs with those of sea life, mostly various aquatic plants but also some coelacanth and shellfish, I’ve given myself the ability to breathe and move freely beneath the waves. Upgrading to large scale has revealed some side effects that weren’t noticeable in the smaller animals I tested the procedure on first, mainly a reduced flexibility, but overall, I am happy with the results. In particular, Father’s sugliin performs surprisingly well underwater… more research necessary.

Speaking of plants, one of my companions mentioned an exotic merchant ship had docked. Perhaps they will have something of interest to me; my alchemical gardens have grown thin.

After Symbiotic Creature we lose the swim speed and must use magic items to get it back… but you should already have one to give your Tendriculos a swim speed anyway (see Mount/Mecha spoiler below).

As discussed above, the sugliin is a lovely weapon for underwater fighting, and should give us an enormous edge over other underwater combatants. Your Tendriculos’ bite (whether it’s your mount or your host) definitely strikes as a piercing weapon, and thus work fine underwater; the Tendriculos’ tendrils may or may not (this is full “ask your DM” territory), but will be holding the Opposable sugliin in most fights anyway. The battlefist is also kind of iffy; a Warforged’s battlefist attachable component absolutely does, mimicking a spiked gauntlet, but Renegade Mastermaker doesn’t specify.

Tendriculos mount. I’ve wanted to do something with one of these ever since I came across the rules in Arms & Equipment Guide, because the idea of riding around inside a giant alchemically altered plant monster is as weird as it is cool. If you raise a Tendriculos from seed on a specific alchemical diet, it turns off their digestive juices. This makes them unable to digest food normally (they must be fed pre-pulped meat), but makes it safe to ride inside where a swallowed creature would normally go. Prop the mouth open or closed with what is essentially a giant bear trap, and you’re all set. The Tendriculos might lose control and try to swallow an opponent anyway the first time it grabs someone in a fight… but since its Improved Grab is on its bite, and it can’t bite with the ‘saddle’ in, this should almost never come up (and the Ride DC isn’t too bad anyway).

How do you take the Tendriculos on an underwater adventure? Well, once you get Symbiotic Creature, it inherits your Amphibious Special Quality. Before that, a Beruto of the Carp Dragon is the cheapest to buy and easiest to make, giving a 20ft swim speed and the ability to breathe water, at the cost of your ability to breathe air while wearing it. Shouldn’t be a problem the vast majority of the time, and the Tendriculos has enough Con to last for most fights holding its breath anyway should you need to sprint out of the water and immediately engage an opponent. You can even train another animal to take the belt on and off for you. A Pearl of the Sirenes is an alternative; much more expensive, and you won’t be able to craft it after you’re already amphibious, but it gives a nice 60ft swim speed (though you must use a tendril or your battlefist to hold it in place).

Love it or hate it, this is one of the most unique character options ever printed. Using a PC as the guest is utterly broken if used irresponsibly, since templates in Savage Species explicity override the LA of base creatures that don’t already have one (in our case, the Tendriculos with its LA: – goes to LA: +1 after the template). However, used responsibly, this will let you fine-tune the power of this build to your table, since you can decide exactly how many levels you had before getting the template; the later you apply it, the stronger you end up. The disadvantage is that you will spend the adjustment period on the opposite side of the scale: if you take it early, you’ll be strong for a few levels until your reduced XP gain lets the party catch up to your ECL, but if you take it late, you’ll be weak for a few levels until you catch up to them.

9th level is when the new CR equals new ECL after Symbiotic Creature (10). This is in line with Pathfinder rules of ECL = CR, and makes for a very smooth build, but seems like far too much value for effectively +1 LA. For this version of the build, I’m going to chisel a full 2 levels off that, applying the template at level 7. This gives you a power spike for a level or two, but ends up costing you three levels of Artificer, a much fairer trade for a gishy character. If using this in actual play before ECL 10, consider asking your DM if you can take more levels of Artificer to keep up with the party and then lose them once you take the template; this will make for a much smoother transition of power levels.

Fun fact: the post-template character (hereafter referred to as “the plant mecha knight”) inherits Human Heritage from Hiccup as a bonus feat, setting the type back to Humanoid. This means we still qualify for enlarge person, getting us up to Gargantuan size with a single first-level infusion (or just a wand) at ECL 10. Well worth purchasing permancy for that, or just crafting a scroll yourself.

Rundown of changes:

Size increases to Huge.
Type changes to Aberration… and then changes right back to Humanoid (human), probably with a few augmented subtypes as well (e.g. “augmented plant”) thanks to Human Heritage.
The Plant Mecha Knight has 9 Plant HD (d8, medium BAB).
20ft land speed, no swim speed by default.
+9 natural armor; lovely.
Natural attacks are the same as the Tendriculos, though if Hiccup picked up a natural attack somewhere the Plant Mecha Knight would still be able to use it as a secondary attack, using the new Str modifier for attack/damage.
Special Attacks: As the Plant Mecha Knight, Hiccup keeps all his infusions. I’m assuming that like a creature with natural spellcasting, he still needs to take another actual level in Artificer before he can progress his infusions with Renegade Mastermaker. Can now Swallow Whole without repercussions. This also means we can carry around up to 8 Medium creatures in our stomach, safely since we still don’t have acid.
Special Qualities are inherited from both host and guest. That means the Plant Mecha Knight now has Amphibious, Low Light Vision, Plant Traits, and Regeneration 10 (overcome by bludgeoning or acid, which underwater basically just means acid). Can also separate into Tendriculos and Hiccup as a standard action, though reintegrating takes a full day.
Base saves are the better of guest and host; that means we get to use Hiccups +4 Will instead of a Tendriculos’ +3.
Physical ability scores from the Tendriculos, mental from Hiccup. The perfect fusion, using the best parts of each and discarding their weaknesses (aside from their shared weakness of crap Dex). Presumably this means that Hiccup is also the one calling the shots. I’m assuming a perfectly vanilla Tendriculos, so no stat increases from the Elite Array or HD. A generous DM might let you get away with much better physical stats, representing an elite Tendriculos.
We get the same class skills as the Tendriculos, and get all the skill ranks that the Tendriculos had, but we also get new skill points to spend for each HD based on our new Int. Alas, we get Able Learner after calculating these ranks, so it’s only useful for the bonus four we get again from Human Heritage. On the plus side, we get all of Hiccup’s skill ranks as racial bonuses to those skills, keeping our total bonuses nice and high despite low ranks.
Default Tendriculos feats (Power Attack being the big winner here), but we get all Hiccup’s feats as bonus feats. Pretty sweet!
Level Adjustment = +1. “Templates often apply to monsters that cannot, or should not, be characters (for instance, because their Intelligence is too low). Level adjustments for such templates only apply if the resulting templated monster can be a character. In cases when a template makes an otherwise unplayable creature into a viable character (such as the incarnate construct template), this book gives level adjustments for the templated version of the creature.” (Fortunately for the sanity of everyone, this rule explicitly only applies to templates from Savage Species). Symbiotic Creature gives limbs, fingers, and PC intelligence to the Tendriculos, making it a viable player race (and it’s already lost what the designers would consider the problematic ability of Paralysis), so it gets assigned the LA of the template. Stinky, stinky, stinky cheese, so balance how many levels of Artificer you’re taking very carefully to your table. This build intentionally undershoots.

Honestly, just taking a full 10 levels of Artificer is mechanically stronger. But it’s also wonky getting the same class features again, your Craft Reserve is way behind a traditional Artificer, and it’s debatable whether you can even take the crafting feats you don’t have yet without a real CL. Renegade Mastermaker is an absolutely perfect flavor fit for a mad scientist tinkering with their own body like Hiccup, and while the abilities aren’t as objectively strong as just doubling down on casting, we’re here because we want to be a Mecha Knight, and RM gives us some nice side benefits for melee combat while still mostly progressing our infusions.

It does, however, still have some wonkiness, mainly to do with the Battlefist class feature. These are all firmly in “ask your DM” territory, but they’re also all pretty low impact compared to what you’re doing with the sugliin and your infusions. Here are my thoughts:

The Battlefist. What type of damage does it deal? Who can say! The Warforged component called Battlefist does piercing/blugeoning, because it’s a spiked gauntlet and a Warforged slam, but the RM class feature is noticeably different in its wording, and the Plant Mecha Knight didn’t already have a slam, so who knows.

The Battlefist might increase in damage because we’re Huge, but that’s also not specified. In fact, since it replaces a hand (and Hiccup’s are Medium still) and doesn’t specify that the damage changes for larger characters, I’d be inclined to rule that it’s an ordinary human-sized gauntlet that replaces one of the Human hands, and does 1d6 damage by default, but does scale up to 1d8 with enlarge person active because it’s still a weapon and thus gets upgraded by active size changes.

How about reach? Here I think the RAW is unambiguous that the Battlefist will have the full reach of the Plant Mecha Knight, because that’s who got the class feature. How does that work if it’s grafted onto one of the human hands? I picture the Plant Mecha Knight extruding Hiccup’s body, perhaps even holding it in a tendril, to punch somebody with this comparatively tiny metal hand. And that is a hilariously awesome visual to me: Hiccup just shoots out, stares the opponent dead in the eyes, uppercuts them, and then shoots back into the mech to continue piloting it. Like something straight out of Titanfall… or perhaps Cuphead.

Beruto of the Carp Dragon (Dragon Magic) is probably going to be your first underwater mobility tool, because it’s the cheapest and earliest you can craft. Also the fact that they named this item by taking “belt” and spelling it phonetically in Japanese and then apparently just called it a day is hilarious to me.
Pearl of the Sirenes (SRD) is lovely once you can make it, which will probably be after becoming the Plant Mecha Knight. Conveniently, you have one human hand that you’re not doing much with that can hold the pearl to your chest to gain its benefits without impacting your combat routine.
Greater Crystal of Aquatic Action (Magic Item Compendium). It’s even easier and cheaper to make than the belt, but it can only be put on +3 or better armor, so it actually comes online later. Still a great item for equipping the rest of the party, and a good backup to have in case you need both human hands for something.
Pearl of Speech (SRD) for the Tendriculos and perhaps other pets.
Shrink Collar (Arms & Equipment), for your Tendriculos and later yourself. Brings you down to Small size without changing any of your ability scores. Very handy for getting around in normal sized or even tiny settlements, and adorable.
Strongarm Bracers (Magic Item Compendium). Because the only better than a ridiculously oversized sugliin is an even more ridiculously oversized sugliin. This plus enlarged person plus Monkey Grip gets your weapon above Colossal. Embrace your inner Hulk, and smash smash!
Opposable (Masters of the Wild). A +1 equivalent weapon property that lets you use natural weapons in place of hands. A must for the Plant Mecha Knight’s sugliin.
More than two-handed? You can craft a weapon to be used by more than two hands (Savage Species), giving +50% of your Str to damage for each extra hand. With an Opposable sugliin, we can get at least 3 ‘hands’ from the Tendriculos’ natural weapons, and probably a 4th in the Battlefist. I wish you the best of luck convincing a DM that you could use your other Human hand for this as well.
Special materials. You don’t need Pearlsteel to make your weapon functional underwater, so your sugliin can be of any material that doesn’t require a metal weapon. Which… is surprisingly few of them. But Frystalline (Book of Exalted Deeds) works, making your weapon good-aligned for bypassing DR.
Specialized Homunculi (Eberron Campaign Setting). A Dedicated Wright is the only one you really need, for finishing construction on magical items while you’re adventuring. Nothing wrong with a Packmate or three, though, to carry loot, hurl alchemical flasks, and administer potions to you and your allies without needing your actions.
Portable Hole (SRD). Once you’ve go the resources, you can set up a small lab inside a Portable Hole. Not only will you have access to your tools wherever you are, your Dedicated Wright can be working away inside your pocket since it doesn’t need air.

Abilities Initial Race / Template 4th 10th (Symbiotic Creature) 13th 17th
STR 8 28
DEX 10 8 9 10
CON 10 22
INT 18 19 20
WIS 10
CHA 16

ECL Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Reflex Save Will Save Skills Feats Features
1st Fighter 1 1 2 0 0 32: {+4} Craft (alchemy: 4; {+4} Craft (armorsmithing): 4; {+4} Craft (weaponsmithing): 4; {+4 CC} Disable Device: 2; {+4} Handle Animal: 4; {+4 CC} Open Lock: 2; {+4} Ride: 4; {+2} Search: 2; {+2} Use Magic Device: 2; Able Learner (B), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sugliin) (B), Human Heritage Amphibious, Bonus Feat
2nd Fighter 2 2 3 0 0 7: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 5; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 5; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 5; {+1} Disable Device: 3; {+1} Handle Animal: 5; Open Lock: 2; {+1} Ride: 5; Search: 2; {+1} Use Magic Device: 3; Shorten Grip (B) Bonus Feat
3rd Artificer 1 2 3 0 2 9: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 6; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 6; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 6; {+1} Disable Device: 4; {+1} Handle Animal: 6; Open Lock: 2; Ride: 5; {+1} Search: 3; {+3} Use Magic Device: 6; Ancestral Relic (sugliin), Scribe Scroll (B) Artificer Knowledge, Artificer Bonus, Disable Trap, Item Creation, Scribe Scroll
4th Artificer 2 3 3 0 3 9: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 7; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 7; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 7; {+2} Disable Device: 6; {+1} Handle Animal: 7; Open Lock: 2; Ride: 5; {+2} Search: 5; {+1} Use Magic Device: 7; Brew Potion (B) Brew Potion
5th Artificer 3 4 4 1 3 9: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 8; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 8; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 8; {+2} Disable Device: 8; {+1} Handle Animal: 8; Open Lock: 2; Ride: 5; {+2} Search: 7; {+1} Use Magic Device: 8; Craft Wondrous Item (B) Craft Wondrous Item
6th Artificer 4 5 4 1 4 9: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 9; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 9; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 9; {+1} Disable Device: 9; {+1} Handle Animal: 9; {+1} Open Lock: 3; Ride: 5; {+2} Search: 9; {+1} Use Magic Device: 9; Extraordinary Artisan (B), Sugliin Mastery Craft Homunculus, Bonus Feat
7th Artificer 5 5 4 1 4 9: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 10; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 10; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 10; {+1} Disable Device: 10; {+1} Handle Animal: 10; {+2} Open Lock: 5; Ride: 5; {+1} Search: 10; {+1} Use Magic Device: 10; Craft Magic Arms & Armor (B) Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Retain Essence
8th
9th
10th Symbiotic Creature (Tendriculos//Hiccup) 9HD +1 LA 6 6 3 4 76: {+4} Craft (alchemy: 4; {+8 CC} Craft (armorsmithing): 4; {+8 CC} Craft (weaponsmithing): 4; {+8 CC} Disable Device: 4; {+6 CC} Handle Animal: 3; {+12} Hide: 12; {+8 CC} Open Lock: 4; {+2 CC} Ride: 1; {+8 CC} Search: 4; {+12 CC} Use Magic Device: 6; Alertness, Iron Will, Power Attack, Stealthy See "Symbiotic Creature" spoiler
11th Artificer 1 6 6 3 6 8: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 5; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 5; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 5; {+1} Disable Device: 5; {+1} Handle Animal: 4; Hide: 12; {+1} Open Lock: 5; Ride: 1; {+1} Search: 5; {+1} Use Magic Device: 7; Artificer Knowledge, Artificer Bonus, Disable Trap, Item Creation, Scribe Scroll
12th Renegade Mastermaker 1 6 8 3 8 8: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 6; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 6; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 6; {+1} Disable Device: 6; {+1} Handle Animal: 5; Hide: 12; {+1} Open Lock: 6; Ride: 1; {+1} Search: 6; {+1} Use Magic Device: 8; Battlefist, Craft Master
13th Renegade Mastermaker 2 7 9 3 9 9: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 7; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 7; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 7; {+1} Disable Device: 7; {+1} Handle Animal: 6; Hide: 12; {+1} Open Lock: 7; {+1} Ride: 2; {+1} Search: 7; {+1} Use Magic Device: 9; Monkey Grip Battlefist (+1), Self-Repair
14th Renegade Mastermaker 3 8 9 4 9 9: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 8; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 8; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 8; {+1} Disable Device: 8; {+1} Handle Animal: 7; Hide: 12; {+1} Open Lock: 8; {+1} Ride: 3; {+1} Search: 8; {+1} Use Magic Device: 10; Supporting Construction
15th Renegade Mastermaker 4 9 10 4 10 9: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 9; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 9; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 9; {+1} Disable Device: 9; {+1} Handle Animal: 8; Hide: 12; {+1} Open Lock: 9; {+1} Ride: 4; {+1} Search: 9; {+1} Use Magic Device: 11; Damage Reduction 1/Adamantine
16th Renegade Mastermaker 5 9 10 4 10 9: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 10; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 10; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 10; {+1} Disable Device: 10; {+1} Handle Animal: 9; Hide: 12; {+1} Open Lock: 10; {+1} Ride: 5; {+1} Search: 10; {+1} Use Magic Device: 12; Heroic Spirit Battlefist (+2)
17th Renegade Mastermaker 6 10 11 5 11 9: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 11; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 11; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 11; {+1} Disable Device: 11; {+1} Handle Animal: 10; Hide: 12; {+1} Open Lock: 11; {+1} Ride: 6; {+1} Search: 11; {+1} Use Magic Device: 13;
18th Renegade Mastermaker 7 11 11 5 11 9: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 12; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 12; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 12; {+1} Disable Device: 12; {+1} Handle Animal: 11; Hide: 12; {+1} Open Lock: 12; {+1} Ride: 7; {+1} Search: 12; {+1} Use Magic Device: 14; Embed Component
19th Renegade Mastermaker 8 12 12 5 12 9: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 13; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 13; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 13; {+1} Disable Device: 13; {+1} Handle Animal: 12; Hide: 12; {+1} Open Lock: 13; {+1} Ride: 8; {+1} Search: 13; {+1} Use Magic Device: 15; Cleave Damage Reduction 2/Adamantine
20th Renegade Mastermaker 9 12 12 6 12 9: {+1} Craft (alchemy: 14; {+1} Craft (armorsmithing): 14; {+1} Craft (weaponsmithing): 14; {+1} Disable Device: 14; {+1} Handle Animal: 13; Hide: 12; {+1} Open Lock: 14; {+1} Ride: 9; {+1} Search: 14; {+1} Use Magic Device: 16; Battlefist (+3)

ECL Class 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st
2nd
3rd Artificer 1 2
4th Artificer 2 3
5th Artificer 3 3 1
6th Artificer 4 3 2
7th Artificer 5 3 3 1
10th Symbiotic Creature 3 3 2
11th Artificer 1 3 3 2
12th Renegade Mastermaker 1 3 3 2
13th Renegade Mastermaker 2 3 3 2 1
14th Renegade Mastermaker 3 3 3 3 2
15th Renegade Mastermaker 4 3 3 3 2 1
16th Renegade Mastermaker 5 3 3 3 2 2
17th Renegade Mastermaker 6 3 3 3 2 2 1
18th Renegade Mastermaker 7 3 3 3 3 2 1
19th Renegade Mastermaker 8 3 3 3 3 3 2
20th Renegade Mastermaker 9 3 3 3 3 3 2

Man, how often do you have to dip Fighter for the skills? We need Handle Animal to raise the Tendriculos, at least a few points in Ride, and several craft skills; Fighter gives all three. Obviously the bonus feats, full BAB, and heavy armor are superb as well. Human Heritage gives us some lovely, lovely skill points to spend, conveniently after Able Learner halves the cost of cross-class ranks (you get feats after spending your skill points; this is why Search and UMD aren’t marked as cross-class skills at first level, because we’re playing in-class rates for them). Later, Human Heritage will also let us continue to use enlarge person by resetting our type to Humanoid, and give us another 4 skill points; that’s a lot of value!

Before level 6, combat with a sugliin is going to be clunky. You can only attack with it as a full-round action, which probably rules out charge attacks as well. Reach ameliorates this somewhat (and Shorten Grip also lets us attack adjacent enemies with it), but make sure you’ve got spiked armor/gauntlets so you can move + attack if necessary.

In the early levels you’re being kept afloat in combat by the high base damage of the sugliin, heavy armor, and the ability to spend an action point to rapidly apply an appropriate Bane ability to a weapon of your choice for difficult fights (via Personal Weapon Augmentation). Ideally, you will also have trained animals (guard dogs being probably the gold standard) able to support you and your party members. Attack, Assist Attack, and Assist Defend are the combat tricks you want to teach them, though you may be able to get some mileage out of teaching your pets to steal important items from your enemies (“Attack, my seagull minions! Whoever brings me that wand will receive a double helping of Faerunian fries tonight!”).

Out of combat, Hiccup is a competent trap-finder and -disabler. Once you hit Artificer 5, you can even disable magical traps that would otherwise be impossible for you (or even impossible for anyone) by absorbing their magic with Retain Essence, though this takes a full day. You’re comparatively bad at opening locks, but you can probably get it done eventually. Your trained animals will also be able to stand watch and track. Last but not least are your craft skills; you can repair or build wholesale your team’s arms and armor, as well as alchemical items (which you can potentially train your pets to deliver with a custom trick).

You can replicate a ridiculous number of spells with the Spell Storing Item infusion, turning any item into a single use wand. Knock, heart of water, identify, you name it… but the check is hard at these levels, so only use it when you’re prepared to burn many infusion slots.

One thing that is absolutely worth your Spell Storing Item infusions (and XP to cast them) is raising your Tendriculos from seed. This requires a hefty DC 30 Handle Animal check… but only once, so burn as many infusions as it takes to cast divine insight on yourself. With a masterwork too, this lets you pass the DC by taking 10 at ECL 4; with some other bonuses (such as friends using aid another), you could safely do it even earlier. Heck, with enough friends, you don’t even need divine insight.

The Tendriculos greatly increases your combat capability, obviously. You can also enhance its tendrils with infusions. One trick that isn’t immediately apparent is that Regeneration removes the downside of spurring your mount, giving you a significant boost to its land speed and swim speed; out of combat, you can spur the Tendriculos six turns out of every seven and its Regen will still keep it at full health (though this may be too cruel).

Oh, and Ancestral Relic with Hiccup’s father’s sugliin lets us upgrade it cheaply and easily, especially once we craft a Dedicated Wright that can continue building another magic item while we meditate and pray over the sugliin.

Oh boy was dealing with the skill points a pain. I’m assuming that the SRD Tendriculos put every single one of its skill points into Hide, since the totals for all of its other skills are accounted for by feats and stat penalties; it has an extra bonus to Hide coming from somewhere I can’t figure out, but it does not matter for this build at all. After those 12 skill points are allotted, we have 60 more to spend, plus another 4 from Human Heritage that don’t have to pay cross-class prices (going into Craft (alchemy)). Remember that we keep all our original skill ranks as a racial bonus to the appropriate skill. This transition has cost us most of our synergy bonuses temporarily; only UMD actually has 5+ ranks at ECL 10.

Monkey Grip. This along with enlarge persion brings our sugliin up to Colossal. If Strongarm Bracers stack with Monkey Grip (I believe they do, but IIRC there is no community consensus), you’re now officially at Colossal+. Remember that we threaten our full reach with it thanks to the Shorten Grip feat. And with a 3- to 4-handed sugliin (Savage Species gives rules for making more than 2-handed weapons, and the Opposable weapon enhancement lets us use our natural weapons as hands) and now Power Attack, we hit like a dang truck. Also note that because you can change how you’re holding a weapon as a free action, wielding the sugliin with our natural weapons doesn’t necessarily prevent you from letting go one at a time to attack with them too; this is moderate “ask your DM” territory, though.

This is also the bracket where we unlock Concurrent Infusions, noteworthy for its ability to replicate Spell Storing Item without its XP cost or material components.

Our Battlefist is a bit wonky (see the Renegade Mastermaker spoiler), but an extra natural weapon is always a nice thing to have, even with the most unfavorable rulings on its damage size and whether it can be used to wield the sugliin.

Not a whole lot in this bracket that all Artificers don’t get, so we’ll keep it brief.

Lots of tiny but useful perks from Renegade Mastermaker. If you don’t have a magic item you like for a body slot yet, chances are there’s a Warforged component you can now install there instead. I like the Finger Picks.

Heroic Spirit gives us 3 extra action points each level. That’s three extra encounters where we can open with an infusion that would normally be prohibitively slow.

Cleave is normally just okay, but we’re doing a comparatively small number of attacks that each hit like a truck, and have reach for days, so we’re a lot more likely to get value out of it.

For items discussed in the build and their sources, see that spoiler.

Arms & Equipment Guide – Tendriculos mount rules.
Complete Warrior – Monkey Grip.
Dragon Compendium – Shorten Grip.
Eberron Campaign Setting – Artificer. Extraordinary Artisan, Heroic Spirit.
Frostburn – Sugliin Mastery.
Magic of Eberron – Renegade Mastermaker.
Races of Destiny – Able Learner, Human Heritage.
Rules Compendium – Underwater fighting rules.
Savage Species – Symbiotic Creature. Template rules, multi-handed weapon rules.
Stormwrack – Amphibious Creature. Toothed Blow (example only).
SRD – Aquatic Human, Tendriculos. Fighter. Alertness, Brew Potion, Cleave, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Iron Will, Power Attack, Scribe Scroll, Stealthy. Underwater fighting rules.

Image is from "Avatar: The Last Airbender".

Inevitability

2024-01-04, 04:45 AM

And that's it! Five behemoth bruisers for your reading pleasure! You may post now.

Do we have any judges?

PoeticallyPsyco

2024-01-04, 01:29 PM

So my initial idea was using a Large or Powerful Build race (Jotunbrud won't work because it doesn't play nicely with other size increasers) with Human Heritage to qualify them for enlarge person. That's not ideal as investment goes, and I was feeling down on the idea. But then I checked out Savage Species just in case, and was delighted to find that I had misremembered Half-Ogre! LA +1, and best of all, while it didn't list a type, it gave them the Giant Blood racial trait so they also count as giants for magical effects, so obviously their base type must be Humanoid! That's fantastic! I had two full builds going based on that, each getting up to Huge size at ECL 2, a Cleric 1/Ranger 18 and a Battle Sorcerer/Swiftblade. Huge and wielding a Sugliin, both at ECL 2!

But then it all started falling apart. A little bell was ringing in the back of my head, telling me that I'd tried this before and gotten dinged in the judgments. So I opened up Races of Destiny with a sinking feeling in my chest. Sure enough, Half-Ogre got updated to +2 LA, with no compensatory buffs anywhere to be seen. "Okay," I said, "that really sucks, but I can just chisel a level off my builds and carry on". And carry on I did, researching the Uthgardt tribes and Forgotten Realms deities and putting together feat chains. But then I checked again, and realized that Races of Destiny also made them Giants, so I'd need to spend my first level feats on Human Heritage and wouldn't get the Huge Sugliin going until ECL 5, and wouldn't get Sugliin Mastery until even later, and entry to Swiftblade would be pushed back even further...! So I said screw it. I've already invested days of research and crafting into this; I'm going to close my eyes and pretend Races of Destiny Half-Ogre doesn't exist. I'll add a disclaimer to the submissions explaining that I'm using an illegal un-updated ingredient, explain why, homebrew some recommended nerfs, and accept the Elegance penalties as the price of getting to cook something halfway functional. And I kept on building, putting together my skills and spell-lists.

And that's when I realized that while their type is never specified in their entry, and their is no sample Half-Ogre to look at for the type, there is a table at the start of that chapter in Savage Species. And it says there that Half-Ogres are Giants. Both of my builds had just gone from "slightly illegal" to "extra super illegal". *head desk*

My other idea, which I liked but simply didn't have time to cook alongside my actual submission, was to use a Ghost that had been haunt shifted into a sailing ship. Animate objects to act as my bodies, Bard into War Chanter or maybe Storm Singer to buff the party even when not manifested since you can still make your voice heard, and once you reach CR 10 you can animate the entire ship! It was such a cool idea. But there were way too many iffy points that would require DM adjudication or outright fiat: getting a spellcaster to haunt shift you in your backstory, it might not be possible to use class features when not manifested, does a sailing ship even qualify as a "location" instead of an object, is a haunting presence even still legal to play as a PC, does animating Huge+ objects really qualify for the competition restrictions...? I dropped it to focus on my fourth and final idea, a build I've been itching to cook for literal years.

Prime32

2024-01-04, 02:03 PM

My idea was to fire javelins from an icechucker and combine crossbow abilities with "ranged attack with a thrown weapon" abilities... but there's not much crossbow support that would make this worth it, and what does exist isn't necessarily compatible with icechucker.

Inevitability

2024-01-04, 02:53 PM

Human heritage half-ogre was one of the concepts on my mind when I proposed this competition, yeah. Sad it's so antisynergistic with the easiest Enlarge Person sources and eats a feat.

One option that I didn't really expect, but would've been extremely pleased to see, was a Hornhead Saurial (http://www.tsrarchive.com/3f/Serpent_Kingdoms_WE.pdf), which are the one Large-sized humanoid, though at the cost of 2 RHD and +2 LA. They even come with favored class (wizard), so you can dip that class for Enlarge Person and an Exotic Weapon Proficiency!

You could barely get a hornhead saurial with such a wizard dip to retain +16 BAB, even. Wizard 1/warblade 3/jade phoenix mage 7/abjurant champion 5 wouldn't exactly be bad (with 6th-level spells, CL 16, +16 BAB, and 7th-level maneuvers) though it'd be pretty factory-standard and require some sort of heighten cheese.

pabelfly

2024-01-04, 04:04 PM

One option that I didn't really expect, but would've been extremely pleased to see, was a Hornhead Saurial (http://www.tsrarchive.com/3f/Serpent_Kingdoms_WE.pdf), which are the one Large-sized humanoid, though at the cost of 2 RHD and +2 LA.

Oriental Adventures has a bunch of Naga, which are also Large, Humanoid and Reptilian, Chameleon Naga also being 2 RHD and 2LA. Constrictor Naga are Huge in size, Humanoid and Reptilian (with 5 LA and 4 RHD).

H_H_F_F

2024-01-04, 04:10 PM

They're monstrous humanoids, as per the update booklet.

Inevitability

2024-01-04, 04:11 PM

Oriental Adventures has a bunch of Naga, which are also Large, Humanoid and Reptilian, Chameleon Naga also being 2 RHD and 2LA. Constrictor Naga are Huge in size, Humanoid and Reptilian (with 5 LA and 4 RHD).

Unfortunately, those got updated away from the humanoid type in the dragon318 update, and the contest has a blanket rule that implements updates to permitted material even if those are found in otherwise illegal sources. (which is probably for the best, unless we want White Dragonspawn to be in play)

Morphic tide

2024-01-04, 06:09 PM

Patrick: Glorious pileup of utter jank, probably going to go horribly on Elegance for it but what was written down is pretty clear. Using "I can pay +1 for my Natural Weapons to be hands!" for an even bigger stick instead of Multiweapon Fighting shenanigans is wonderful, and sensible right when you can afford a +2 weapon.

Icra & Terria: I can't help but feel the Deep Imeskari is an awkward obligated prerequisite for extreme Metamorphosis cheese to cheese the Fiend of Possession requirements by crafting an item. And I do not understand why this Psionic character is a Deep Imeskari ignoring their slot refresh instead of a Grey Elf who's Strength penalty is fully irrelevant. There's also some bonus PP from Practiced Manifester since that function is ML-based. Finally, Uncarnate 10 is kinda a downgrade from your pre-existing At-Will Etherealness since you can't Metamorphosis or Skin of Proteus out of a class feature and FoP 6 gives you mind control.

H_H_F_F

2024-01-05, 03:58 AM

snip

Hey, criticism of entries in the main thread is generally not done before the reveal. We try to keep the judgements "unbiased", and the builders can't step up to defend their builds. I'd delete / heavily edit this comment, if I were you.

loky1109

2024-01-05, 08:06 AM

Table will come latter today.

loky1109

2024-01-06, 07:55 AM

And finally table.

# Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef Total Place
1 Patrick, the Keeper (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939664&postcount=38) LE Half-Molydeus Human Fighter 2/Warblade 14
2 Icra & Terria (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939665&postcount=39) TN Deep Imaskari Psion 5/Psion Uncarnate 10/Fiend of Possession 5
3 Fir (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939668&postcount=40) NG Treant Skilled City-Dweller Shooting Star Crowd-Walker Ranger 8
4 Madleaf (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939669&postcount=41) CE Treant Treant 12/Crusader 3/Warhulk 5
5 Hiccup (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939670&postcount=42) CG Symbiotic Tendriculos/Amphibous Aquatic Human Fighter 2/ Artificer 5/Artificer 1/ Renegade Mastermaker 9

Sorry for delay.

Inevitability

2024-01-06, 08:11 AM

I have to agree with H_H_F_F, morphic. I suggest either deleting or editing the post, or at least spoilering the thoughts so judges can stay unbiased.

Speaking of which, any judges yet? I've got a number of contest ideas, but I'm intending to give anyone who judges a bigger say in the process of selecting the next round, too.

quetzalcoatl5

2024-01-07, 04:30 AM

I plan to judge this.

Inevitability

2024-01-07, 07:09 AM

I plan to judge this.

That's great; thanks a lot! I'll come up with some possible ideas for future rounds that you can pare down further after judging, anything you'd like to see in the next contest?

That is, would you prefer I make some suggestions for competitions featuring 5-level classes? Feat categories? Class features? Amorphous game mechanics like 'healing' or 'enchantment spells'? Is there some particular bit of material that you want to be involved somehow, but don't quite know what to combine it with? Or do you trust me to just come up with some fun contest ideas to pick from?

Personally I've been leaning into making the next contest touch on either divine or skillmonkey territory, as we've had a lot of melee/caster (or gish) rounds recently, but there's plenty of variety within those categories still.

quetzalcoatl5

2024-01-07, 10:41 AM

I trust you to come up with some good suggestions. I like the idea of either skill monkey or divine!

PoeticallyPsyco

2024-01-11, 10:16 AM

H_H_F_F

2024-01-11, 10:47 AM

RE: discussing the builds, I have a hard time seeing it as a bad thing. Spoiler it if you must, but any activity and engagement is good activity and engagement. Sure it could influence the judges, but it could also inspire people to judge in the first place (the fastest way to get me to judge, or at least to submit a dispute on behalf of the contestants, is to post a judgement I disagree with in whole or in part).

So, I agree that engagement is good. I do think that spoilering is the right move.

However, I can share that I once had an entry I made dissected by a lot of people watching and participating, trying (and eventually succeeding) to poke holes in the build.

I didn't have any recourse. I couldn't voice my own opinion, I couldn't defend my entry, I couldn't dispute anything. That felt... not good.

There's also the Green Star Adept round of Iron Chef, to demonstrate how salty these things can get.

I'm not against openning up the discussion, but I think that if we want to have a more active discourse, we need to figure out the appropriate etiquette.

Imagine, for example, that I follow the reveal in a round I participated in by trashing all the other entries. That's obviously not a good way to do anything, right?

So. Maybe only non-participants can post before the reveal? Maybe it should all be spoilered? Maybe we should have a dispute-like process, where the chair posts responses from the chefs, if there are any?

I don't know if that would be conducive to a more lively but still civil thread, but I do know that it should be a discussion, rather than just posting about until something explodes (again).

Menzath

2024-01-11, 12:08 PM

I had a few build ideas for this, but overall I didn't feel happy with them so I didn't submit them.
One was a generic wildshape Goliath.
The other was a wu-jen/binder/Anima mage/master of masks OA Naga. The build was kind of a mess but worked, the ecl trade off I felt hurt the build too much.

I do think it's a bit interesting the current entries don't utilize a class dip for exotic weapon usage.

Either way good luck to all the contestants.

pabelfly

2024-01-12, 02:42 AM

I'm not sure there's a good answer whether community critique should happen before or after a contest.

If it happens before, there's a question that the critiques might influence a judge.

If it happens after, everyone's ready to move on to the next contest and want to cook for that. I doubt there would be much discussion on entries for a contest that's over when everyone's working out what they want to do for the next contest

If people want to critique builds but not judge, I think entrants could PM the chair to have their rebuttals posted to avoid a situation like H_H_F_F was in. I also think entrants shouldn't comment on other builds, at least until the contest is done, since there's an obvious conflict of interest there.

As I said though, I don't think there's a good answer here.

Inevitability

2024-01-15, 10:57 AM

Quetzalcoatl, any word on the judging progress?

And on that topic, is anyone else interested in judging? Judges will have more of a say when voting for the next round's restrictions!

quetzalcoatl5

2024-01-16, 10:46 PM

Working on my judgements. I'm looking at having them finished by Thursday night.

quetzalcoatl5

2024-01-18, 11:46 PM

Hey, sorry, had a work project come up that took up last night and tonight. I wish I could say I'll have judgements tomorrow, but realistically it'll be Saturday.

Inevitability

2024-01-19, 03:42 AM

Hey, sorry, had a work project come up that took up last night and tonight. I wish I could say I'll have judgements tomorrow, but realistically it'll be Saturday.

That's perfectly alright, good luck with the judgements!

quetzalcoatl5

2024-01-21, 11:53 PM

Update: I have notes on every entry and am working on getting numerical grades for each.

quetzalcoatl5

2024-01-22, 08:44 PM

Junkyard Wars Judging Rubric
Contestants will be judged and awarded a score of 1 through 5 in each of 4 categories:

Originality
A metric that is purely subjective and not at all scaled. If your build blows me away, it’s a 5. If I saw it coming from a mile away it is a 1. interesting combinations of feats, spells, races, skills, etc. increase the score. Known cheese or expected entries tend to decrease the score. However, shared build elements with other builds will not penalize you. Just because both Newton and Leibniz came up with Calculus doesn’t mean it wasn’t revolutionary.

Power
(How powerful and versatile it is compared to the base class)
Scores start at 3.
I value game breaking power less than enjoyably applied power. If I feel like a DM wouldn’t allow the interaction of abilities, I will deduct a half a point.
Builds that won’t contribute for large stretches of the build will have half a point deducted.
Builds that won’t contribute to the party at all will have a point subtracted.
Builds that don’t actually work mechanically will have a point subtracted.
Conversely, builds that offer lots of options throughout most or all levels will receive a point.
For those familiar with the 3.5 Tier system from JaronK (https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=658.0), I will award 1 point if the class lands in Tiers 2 or 3 and a half point if it lands in Tiers 1 or 4. I do not like when players detract from the overall party's enjoyment and I find Tier 4 forces the DM to present situations to cater to those players, while Tier 1 requires the DM to devise situations that negate the Tier 1 player. Neither of those are as rewarding for the party so they won’t be here.
I realize that we are advised not to penalize for being “too powerful” but I need to emphasize that “focused power” (ie Tier 2) is totally fine. I find game breaking elements distasteful so I’m only penalizing builds that neutralize multiple aspects of the game.

Elegance
(What can only be described as how well the build "flows", i.e not using lots of 1-2lv dips, sacrificing flavor for power or using flaws)
Does this build work? Do the disparate elements fit together behind the scenes? This one is going to be a little subjective, but minimum 4 if everything is functional and maximum 2 if there are prerequisites or build elements that are not met.

Use of Components
This seems straightforward but it presents several pass fail situations.
Was the Forbidden Component avoided? Score here is a flat 1 if no and 1 plus the next few questions if yes.
Were the Necessary Components showcased, or simply used because they were necessary? Simply used if necessary is 1, while showcased is a 2.
Were the Necessary Components used mostly separately, or combined into a harmonious whole? 1 if separate, 2 if harmonious whole.
Thus a possible 5, a 3 if lazy but technically correct, and only a 1 if a failed build.

quetzalcoatl5

2024-01-25, 12:44 AM

Sorry for the delay.
Sooooo many plant characters…

I like this mage slaying lockdown build.

Did you just build an Eldritch Bash Brother? This makes me think of the cheeky take on Eldritch horrors that you’d see in something like Atomic Robo. The simplicity of the build is the only thing that gives me pause because it doesn’t highlight the give and take that builds require in the lore of the PC and rather feels like the kind of character a DM drops in. Thus I will give it…
4

Look, this is a Warblade build that is only slightly gimped by racial HD and a classic Fighter 2 dip and the racial HD contributes to your overall effectiveness in your area of focus better than it would for other builds. It is almost impossible to mess up a straight initiator build and low and behold this doesn’t buck those odds.
5

First up, this is the best place to shout out your build argument and goddamn do I love the pedantry of your argument. Excellent stuff! Very well written legal defense. Is it true? You’ve argued enough that I would let it fly if I were the DM. I mean, ultimately this is a template carrying the weight of one secret ingredient and the class levels carrying the other. It works and you argue the case well and there are clearly enough ways to do similar things that I don’t think this is out of control for a DM to work with, although the scenarios would be almost innately B-plots. It works quite well but feels a little modular. Like the weapon could have been any weapon and this would work, likewise any body type could have been met with a different template.
4

You’re big and you use the weapon good. The two components play well together almost automatically and they both make sense here.
5

Total: 18

IT’S A MECHA!!!
It’s a psychic mecha!
It’s a psychic giant mecha!!!
Only drawback is I don’t see the point of Frostburn vs. other weapons

There’s a lot that I’m liking here. I mean… It’s a psychic giant mecha!!! We’ve got an Ultraman fricking power ranger and that’s awesome. You get to be Billy or Andros and have a Megazord. Cool. I mean, love it. That said, it’s also an idea we’ve all played with, regardless of the build. It is inherently of a different genre, so that may just speak to you and I being on similar wavelengths. Ultimately, I judge this as innovative but not mind-blowingly so.
4

This comes off as a Gishy Psion, which easily puts you in the Tier 3 range.
5

Wonderful props for how it all comes together, but your playstyle is going to pivot hard when everything comes online and that hurts a little bit because you spend a few levels as Billy Batson before unlocking the good Captain. The build itself however is very well structured!
4

The big thing I am not seeing here is the reason why Frostburn weapons are important to who this character is. There is so much flavor but it’s a specific flavor. Like, the giant Icechucker is great for the flavor of a fantasy setting mecha, but there are plenty other weapons that could fill this role here. Still, it’s not based on expansion and you get big and you use Frostburn weapons.
4

Total: 17

Ooo… a Treant!
Ranger treant. Neat.

It’s very cool to see a Treebeard type thrown into the fray of this competition and my excitement is in no way dampered by others having similar ideas. It is however a callout to a super popular franchise of fantasy works in that this is how the protagonists side got big guys on their team. Y’know, a giddy but very real…
3

This is teetering on the edge between tiers 4 and 3, with a melee monster and some well optimized Ranger levels, but those Ranger tricks are a lot more impressive without an absurd amount of racial hit dice slowing their progression down. However, the juggernautian nature of the base character never desists and the Ranger levels provide some skill monkey abilities that blend with their raw bulk for some interesting options.
5

As with other builds that utilize solid if non-specific foundations to meet criteria that seem innately synergistic… well… it all works quite well here.
4

Quick: Make me an extremely capable example of literally any race and Ranger would make sense for the build. Then you get into how being big and using weapons play very well together and this build continues to come together well. It ultimately works well.
5

Total: 17

ANOTHER TREANT!
Crusader treant… always a fan!

It’s very cool to see a Treebeard type thrown into the fray of this competition and my excitement is in no way dampered by others having similar ideas. It is however a callout to a super popular franchise of fantasy works in that this is how the protagonists side got big guys on their team. Y’know, a giddy but very real…
3

Crusader and Warhulk are surprisingly synergistic classes and the power level of the overall package reeks of a super focused tier 3 combatant with good utility out of combat from the raw strength of the character. You can imagine the cinematic scenes of Madleaf doing Hulk-like puzzle solving.
5

As with other builds that utilize solid if non-specific foundations to meet criteria that seem innately synergistic… well… this is a very goodest big boi.
4

I’m honestly surprised only one entry in a contest about frickin’ giants had Warhulk in it. This is a good heavy… and heavies do well with exotic weapons.
5

Total: 17

Kraken rider!

One thing that’s wild to me is that we only have one example and this one only barely qualifies as a “pet class” in this contest. Like there are 2 anime mechanical/bio-mechanical armor concepts, but only this one really feels like a pet per se. And that’s only with a lot of squinting. I mean this as a good thing.
5

Damn it! I think I understand this build, but I readily admit not fully being confident in that statement. I want to say this is Tier 3, but it might be Tier 4. I’m going to err towards Tier 3, thus earning a…
5

Artificer into Renegade Mastermaker is pretty straightforward and you make a good case for the use of Sugliin. Get big. Hit big. Works great!
4

The two components work together synergistically, so since you are big and use a Frostburn weapon and you make a good case for why, you end up with…
5

Total: 19

Inevitability

2024-01-25, 04:11 AM

A big thank-you to our judge!

With the end of this round in sight, it's time to look ahead. Before, I let slip that we'd either have a skill-monkey or divine round: but which of the two, you get to decide in agonizing detail! That's right: have not one, not two, not three, but seven contest ideas to vote on! I think any one of these could make for a great round, so I don't particularly care which one people go for, but I encourage everyone to vote: even if you didn't participate in this round!

Deadly Discernment:
Divination spells + Ambush feats – Unseen Seer
This one's been buzzing around in some shape or form for about a year: let's see you use a rogue-y caster-y class that's not Unseen Seer! With no restrictions on class, there's no telling what approaches people take to the concept!

Shadows' Sting:
Scorpion Wraith + Favored Enemy – Ranger
Scorpion Wraith feels like a very good contest ingredient: lots of diverse abilities, a level footprint that's not too bad, and an awkward prerequisite class feature that's nevertheless obtainable in lots of different ways. Favored enemy is another of these well-supported class features that's sure to double the sting of missing out on ranger.

Sphinxes and Scarabs:
Glorious Servitor + Necromancy spells – Cleric
A 7-level PrC with some internal variation, a very versatile and flavorful school of magic, and ancient egypt flavor to wrap it all up: what's not to love? You'll have to be slightly more creative than the obvious cleric entry, of course.

The Right Man For The Gob: Skill Mastery + Stonedeath Assassin – Exemplar
I basically never see goblinoid builds, so... go fix that! Skill Mastery - Exemplar has been bouncing around in my skull for a while, and stonedeath assassin seemed a fine 5-level PrC to constrain it a little bit further.

Bedside Manner:
Healing + Serenity feat – Paladin
An extremely open-ended entry... if you can figure out a way to get Divine Grace (or similar cha-to-saves abilities), of course! Healing has showed up as an ingredient in a reasonably popular proposal, and has more than enough support, so I'm confident this will produce a diverse crop of entries.

Howdy Pilgrim:
Guardian of the Road (https://web.archive.org/web/20030628134657/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030623a) + Wanderer’s Diplomacy feat – Cleric
Guardian of the Road: such a weird PrC. Why allow entry with any kind of divine casting but then only advance cleric, and for a mere two levels to boot? Well, you're going to have to figure out an use for it, because regular cleric casting is banned! (obviously, GotR's casting can be advanced normally once you have it)

Fire and Brimstone:
Evangelist + Fear – Bard
Another 5-level PrC I liked, combined with an ever-popular mechanic and banning the class that's a little bit too obvious of an entry. A mix of 'divine' and 'skillmonkey' that seems quite suited to be listed here.

Every competitor can vote for THREE of these ideas: judges will have their votes weighed a bit more. I'll keep voting open for about a week: ideally we'll have disputes handled by then.

quetzalcoatl5

2024-01-25, 09:35 PM

Sphinxes and Scarabs!
Bedside Manner!
Howdy Pilgrim!

loky1109

2024-01-26, 01:14 AM

Table

# Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef quetzalcoatl5 Total Place
1 Patrick, the Keeper (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939664&postcount=38) LE Half-Molydeus Human Fighter 2/Warblade 14 18.00 18.00 2nd
2 Icra & Terria (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939665&postcount=39) TN Deep Imaskari Psion 5/Psion Uncarnate 10/Fiend of Possession 5 17.00 17.00 3rd
3 Fir (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939668&postcount=40) NG Treant Skilled City-Dweller Shooting Star Crowd-Walker Ranger 8 17.00 17.00 3rd
4 Madleaf (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939669&postcount=41) CE Treant Treant 12/Crusader 3/Warhulk 5 17.00 17.00 3rd
5 Hiccup (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939670&postcount=42) CG Symbiotic Tendriculos/Amphibous Aquatic Human Fighter 2/ Artificer 5/Artificer 1/ Renegade Mastermaker 9 19.00 19.00 1st

Quetzalcoatl5, thank you for your judging!
But... I should to say. I don't like your judgement, there are some significant issues. Is it your first time? My first times also were bad. I want to make detailed analysis of your judgement after reveal. Maybe in Judging Handbook tread.

Ideas selection:
Howdy Pilgrim, Bedside Manner, Sphinxes and Scarabs.

Inevitability

2024-01-26, 02:54 AM

Sphinxes and Scarabs!

Please vote for two other ideas as well. To reiterate, vote for your three top picks!

Invoked

2024-01-26, 03:04 AM

Sphinxes and Scarabs, The Right Man For The Gob (preferred), Shadows' Sting

Ty for Judging quetzalcoatl5,
I must say I expected to get destroyed rating-wise as this was my first ever entry on this board after lurking for like 3 years so I am quite glad it was such a close race and makes me feel confident in my ability to continue competing even if I my knowledge in some areas of 3.x is still rather lacking. However I feel like judging is an even bigger beast because I had no clue how to evaluate some of the other builds here.

H_H_F_F

2024-01-26, 03:59 AM

Congrats on your first time judging, Quetzalcoatl! Despite not participating this round, I enjoyed reading your judgement.

Your approach to originality is vastly different than mine, but the more I think of it, the more I can see merit in it.

As for other stuff... I see a couple of rules issues, and it seems like you're still somewhat unconfident about your ability to see how well a build would actually function in play, thus appealing to more universally accepted methods of judging power (tiers, mainly). I'm sure overtime, you'll develop your judgement and confidence to better bring out your perception of what a good entry does!

Overall, I certainly enjoyed your judgement, and I look forward to seeing you grow as a judge in the future! I think judging (and dealing with disputes, which can be a bit discouraging sometimes) is one of the best ways to become a better builder and to increase system mastery (I'm sure you're already experiencing that, having judged this round).

As for next round: I'd like to see either Shadow's Sting, Right Man For the Gob, or Bedside Manner (for which I assume we don't change the prerequisites of serenity? Your wording implied that you could get away with something that isn't Divine Grace, Inevitability.)

Inevitability

2024-01-26, 04:20 AM

As for next round: I'd like to see either Shadow's Sting, Right Man For the Gob, or Bedside Manner (for which I assume we don't change the prerequisites of serenity? Your wording implied that you could get away with something that isn't Divine Grace, Inevitability.)

I was thinking you could qualify with Divine Grace or anything that differs only in name (that is, any class feature with the sole benefit of 'add your charisma bonus to all saving throws').

H_H_F_F

2024-01-26, 04:24 AM

I was thinking you could qualify with Divine Grace or anything that differs only in name (that is, any class feature with the sole benefit of 'add your charisma bonus to all saving throws').

Certainly opens up the possibilities... Hmmm. I guess I just have this instinctual repulsion to going against RAW with prerequisites.

I'll think about it, I might change my vote later.

PoeticallyPsyco

2024-01-26, 03:58 PM

Big thanks for the judgment, no disputes here.

Every competitor can vote for THREE of these ideas: judges will have their votes weighed a bit more. I'll keep voting open for about a week: ideally we'll have disputes handled by then.

I'm going to say Fire & Brimstone, Sphinxes & Scarabs, and Deadly Discernment. No idea what I'd cook for them, honestly, I just think they're neat.

FactualArcher

2024-01-26, 04:53 PM

No disputes from me.

As for next round, my votes are Deadly Discernment, Bedside Manner, and Shadow's Sting

Battlechaser

2024-01-26, 05:07 PM

quetzalcoatl5

2024-01-27, 03:39 AM

Quetzalcoatl5, thank you for your judging!
But... I should to say. I don't like your judgement, there are some significant issues. Is it your first time? My first times also were bad. I want to make detailed analysis of your judgement after reveal. Maybe in Judging Handbook tread.

...

Second.

...

Please give me feedback.

I will admit that I overestimated my familiarity with the options until I actually saw them but felt unable to retract my offer to judge. I erred on the side of positivity because of that discomfort. But that said, I deserve whatever feedback you have.

Inevitability

2024-01-27, 04:57 AM

Only charisma?

How many alternatives are there? As for as divine-grace-but-renamed abilities go (active continuously, applies to all saving throws) I'm seeing one ability that doesn't use charisma.

But more generally, I think letting an ability count as an identical one with a different name is one thing, but actually altering rules text is another: I'm not too interested in letting Serenity apply to anything that isn't equivalent to paladin-standard divine grace.

H_H_F_F

2024-01-27, 05:01 AM

I will admit that I overestimated my familiarity with the options until I actually saw them but felt unable to retract my offer to judge. I erred on the side of positivity because of that discomfort. .

Man, obviously you should always feel comfortable stepping back if you wish to do so, but I don't think you should've. Improving takes time and experience. Disputes can address some issues, others will be discussed after the reveal.

The only things that truly make someone unfit to judge are bad faith or intellectual laziness. You're trying your best, you gave your best consideration to the entries, even though there was a lot of confusing presentation and deeply obscure material.

You're not obligated to judge anything, but you're also not obligated to not-judge just because you're still learning. I once judged a round where I straight up gave up on Dare's entry because I didn't get it, and I still submitted judgement. I wasn't even a new judge, too - but I'd be willing to bet that today, I would've managed it.

I can see a lot of cringe-worthy stuff in my early judgements, and I always make mistakes - but if I would've refrained from judging, I wouldn't be the judge nor the competitor I am today.

Edit:

How many alternatives are there? As for as divine-grace-but-renamed abilities go (active continuously, applies to all saving throws) I'm seeing one ability that doesn't use charisma.

But more generally, I think letting an ability count as an identical one with a different name is one thing, but actually altering rules text is another: I'm not too interested in letting Serenity apply to anything that isn't equivalent to paladin-standard divine grace.

So, would it still have to be [su]? And "(if any)" rather than "at least 1"? I hadn't checked to see if there are any that aren't, but principally, that'd be the idea?

Inevitability

2024-01-27, 05:40 AM

So, would it still have to be [su]? And "(if any)" rather than "at least 1"? I hadn't checked to see if there are any that aren't, but principally, that'd be the idea?

I'd straightforwardly allow (Ex) not-quite-Divine Grace. Same with abilities that say 'charisma bonus (if any)' instead of 'charisma modifier (if positive)' because that functionally amounts to the same thing anyway. More substantial deviations, like an ability giving a bonus equal to your charisma modifier (minimum 1), or giving charisma-to-saves and something else as well, would not automatically count.

...though if anything from the latter category was called Divine Grace, I suppose it'd count again. If you duplicate the paladin ability in name you're good, if you duplicate it in effect you're good.

I hope that clears up enough? If any issues come up during the round I can always release a FAQ.

Battlechaser

2024-01-27, 06:06 AM

Inevitability

2024-01-27, 06:28 AM

Well, the nightcloak from complete divine grants Grace of the Dark which adds the intelligence bonus to all saving throws.
Not divine grace and not charisma but an ability granted by a deity to add an ability bonus to a save. So very similar.
Of course it is evil.

Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of. Similar in flavor, but not in effect, so not Serenity-eligible.

Not sure why it being evil would matter - there's ways to get Divine Grace for evil characters. The variant paladins, to name something. If we go with the Bedside Manner round I do not expect all the entries to be good/neutral.

loky1109

2024-01-27, 06:38 AM

...
Second.
...
Please give me feedback.

I will admit that I overestimated my familiarity with the options until I actually saw them but felt unable to retract my offer to judge. I erred on the side of positivity because of that discomfort. But that said, I deserve whatever feedback you have.

Of course I'll give you feedback. After reveal. I need some freedom of anonymity.

And I fully agree with H_H_H_F. If you want to judge you should judge and grow up.

H_H_F_F

2024-01-27, 09:50 AM

I personally feel like being [su], and therefore turning off in anti-magic circumstances, is more of a difference than +1 or +0.

I'll defer to your call, of course.

quetzalcoatl5

2024-01-27, 12:40 PM

Thanks guys. I can't wait for the reveal. I did really enjoy the entries even if some of the complexities were daunting to adjudicate.

I will appreciate any honest feedback. I am new to these boards but have really taken to them and hope to continue participating and growing here.

Inevitability

2024-01-27, 02:42 PM

I'll probably reveal today or tomorrow, given that all entrants have posted in the chat and no disputes have been received. I'll give people a little longer and call it.

Anyone with an opinion on next round, get your votes in now!

loky1109

2024-01-27, 02:56 PM

No disputes from me.

N/Arz

2024-01-27, 03:00 PM

Vote Summary: Must disagree that divination, healing, and necromancy are junk. Leaving:

The Right Gob

Divine Pet: Divine Champion + Glorious Servitor - Turn/Rebuke Undead

Inevitability

2024-01-27, 05:05 PM

Divine Pet: Divine Champion + Glorious Servitor - Turn/Rebuke Undead

This seems awful for entry diversity: you're suggesting a round with two classes, both with a +7 BAB requirement and with a combined 12 levels. Any entry that wanted to complete both would have 12 of their final 13 levels locked down: not to mention that they'd need to squeeze all prerequisites (+7 BAB, 2nd-level casting, weapon focus, non-undead turning, race restriction) into the first 8 levels. That's hard: and not in this round's 'how do you even do that' way, but in a boring way where we end up with six entries that combine a Rebuke Dragons Silverbrow Human cleric with 4-5 levels of martial. I do encourage people to submit their own suggestions for future rounds, but this isn't what the contest needs.

Anyway, you only voted for one thing; I'd like people to vote for their top three.

NotInventedHere

2024-01-28, 08:12 AM

I was thinking you could qualify with Divine Grace or anything that differs only in name (that is, any class feature with the sole benefit of 'add your charisma bonus to all saving throws').
You know, I'm fairly sure that already *is* a rule, although I can't immediately find the reference. I'm sure though that one or other supplement had a little "this is totally how the rules were all along" 'clarification' note that abilities that were mechanically identical fulfilled prerequisites.

I'll probably reveal today or tomorrow, given that all entrants have posted in the chat and no disputes have been received. I'll give people a little longer and call it.

Anyone with an opinion on next round, get your votes in now!
Uh, not quite all entrants, but still, no disputes from me either, and thank you very much for your judging, quetzalcoatl5.

EDIT:
Oh, wait, the voting.

[X] Shadow's Sting

[X] The Right Man For The Gob

[X] Bedside Manner

loky1109

2024-01-28, 08:19 AM

You know, I'm fairly sure that already *is* a rule, although I can't immediately find the reference. I'm sure though that one or other supplement had a little "this is totally how the rules were all along" 'clarification' note that abilities that were mechanically identical fulfilled prerequisites.

You're talking about 3.0 virtual feats rule.

H_H_F_F

2024-01-28, 10:13 AM

You're talking about 3.0 virtual feats rule.

Yup. Which are 1) completely nasty under that interpretation, and 2) don't apply to class features (like Divine Grace)

Inevitability

2024-01-28, 12:15 PM

Uh, not quite all entrants, but still, no disputes from me either, and thank you very much for your judging, quetzalcoatl5.

Oops, that's on me; I mixed you up with someone who didn't enter at all.

Regardless, without further ado:

# Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef quetzalcoatl5 Total Place
1 Patrick, the Keeper (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939664&postcount=38) LE Half-Molydeus Human Fighter 2/Warblade 14 NotInventedHere 18.00 18.00 2nd
2 Icra & Terria (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939665&postcount=39) TN Deep Imaskari Psion 5/Psion Uncarnate 10/Fiend of Possession 5 FactualArcher 17.00 17.00 3rd
3 Fir (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939668&postcount=40) NG Treant Skilled City-Dweller Shooting Star Crowd-Walker Ranger 8 loky1109 17.00 17.00 3rd
4 Madleaf (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939669&postcount=41) CE Treant Treant 12/Crusader 3/Warhulk 5 Invoked 17.00 17.00 3rd
5 Hiccup (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939670&postcount=42) CG Symbiotic Tendriculos/Amphibous Aquatic Human Fighter 2/ Artificer 5/Artificer 1/ Renegade Mastermaker 9 PoeticallyPsyco 19.00 19.00 1st

Congratulations to PoeticallyPsyco for placing first, and to all our contestants for going home with some kind of medal! I hope to see you back for our upcoming round, which will be...

Deadly Discernment: 2 votes

Shadows' Sting: 4 votes

Sphinxes and Scarabs: 3 votes and 1 judge vote

The Right Man for the Gob: 3 votes

Bedside Manner: 4 votes and 1 judge vote

Howdy Pilgrim: 1 vote and 1 judge vote

Fire and Brimstone: 1 vote

Giving us the clear winner of Bedside Manner!

Sphinxes and Scarabs, Shadows' Sting, and Right Man For The Gob all got a lot of support as well, so I'll keep them in mind for future rounds (and -if- you want one of them, judging in the next round is an easy way to make that happen). The other three ideas will probably be retired for the time being, though individual ingredients might return in some manner.

Next thread up soon!

Inevitability

2024-01-28, 12:24 PM

That reminds me: I vaguely hinted that Frostburn introduced at least one new weapon not listed in the equipment section, and there indeed is: the Steelclaw, located in the Urskan monster entry. They're a mess of a weapon: large-sized weapons aren't supposed to be able to deal 1d12 damage, and they don't seem to take TWF penalties either, so I was quietly hoping someone would try to exploit their RAW weirdness.

Inevitability

2024-01-28, 12:33 PM

Anyway, new thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?664116-Junkyard-Wars-XLV-Serenity-Healing-Paladin&p=25954093) is up! See you there!

loky1109

2024-01-28, 02:32 PM

PoeticallyPsyco

2024-01-28, 03:52 PM

One thing I wish I'd had time for this round was tracking down a good Colossal mount for Hiccup, as well as some specific swimming creatures for Animal Handling shenanigans. The Plant Mecha Knight gets up to Gargantuan size, and retains a hefty bonus to Ride even after integrating with his mount, but doesn't do anything with that. I also had two editing fails that I noticed after submitting.

loky1109

2024-02-02, 09:32 PM

Thank you for all, congrats for medalists!

quetzalcoatl5, sorry for delay. I somehow was out of time.

Let's start from pure numbers.
All five entries have Power 5 and Elegance 4, all but Icra & Terria have UoSI 5. This means Originality alone is the place where placement is decided. The most subjective and unpredictable category. I could aim at big Power score (make Wiz 20), I could aim at big Elegance score (don't make mistakes, make synergic build, don't use flaws, give sources and make good formatting, etc.), I could aim at big UoSI score (make entry for which SI is essential), but I can't predict what will be Original in judge's eyes. I can't even predict who will be judge. This doesn't look good for competition.

Also, all entries have Power 5. First of all, I just don't agree with these points. Making Fir I aimed at 2.5-3.5 (at the best) points. Maybe even less. It was conscious decision. I made a sacrifice in the name of UoSI. And this sacrifice went unnoticed, unrecognized. 5 points in Power upset me. Like this weren't my points, for my work, it feels like I got it by cheating. Unpleasant feeling.
And there is no universe where Fir has Power score equal to Power score of almost full initiator (Patrick). But equality isn't the main issue here, the main issue is the fact that all entries have maximum points in Power. I'm sure, NotInventedHere was sure, his entry should have more points in Power than mine, but... He couldn't even dispute that. Why? Because no disputes could give him more than 5 points in Power, and he couldn't make a dispute about my entry.

I already wrote this in the post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25945968&postcount=9) in the Judging Handbook.

Also, about your Judging Rubric

Power
I value game breaking power less than enjoyably applied power. If I feel like a DM wouldn’t allow the interaction of abilities, I will deduct a half a point.
...
Builds that don’t actually work mechanically will have a point subtracted.
I think this should be in the Elegance.

quetzalcoatl5

2024-02-03, 12:58 AM

Thank you for all, congrats for medalists!

quetzalcoatl5, sorry for delay. I somehow was out of time.

Let's start from pure numbers.
All five entries have Power 5 and Elegance 4, all but Icra & Terria have UoSI 5. This means Originality alone is the place where placement is decided. The most subjective and unpredictable category. I could aim at big Power score (make Wiz 20), I could aim at big Elegance score (don't make mistakes, make synergic build, don't use flaws, give sources and make good formatting, etc.), I could aim at big UoSI score (make entry for which SI is essential), but I can't predict what will be Original in judge's eyes. I can't even predict who will be judge. This doesn't look good for competition.

Also, all entries have Power 5. First of all, I just don't agree with these points. Making Fir I aimed at 2.5-3.5 (at the best) points. Maybe even less. It was conscious decision. I made a sacrifice in the name of UoSI. And this sacrifice went unnoticed, unrecognized. 5 points in Power upset me. Like this weren't my points, for my work, it feels like I got it by cheating. Unpleasant feeling.
And there is no universe where Fir has Power score equal to Power score of almost full initiator (Patrick). But equality isn't the main issue here, the main issue is the fact that all entries have maximum points in Power. I'm sure, NotInventedHere was sure, his entry should have more points in Power than mine, but... He couldn't even dispute that. Why? Because no disputes could give him more than 5 points in Power, and he couldn't make a dispute about my entry.

I already wrote this in the post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25945968&postcount=9) in the Judging Handbook.

Also, about your Judging Rubric

I think this should be in the Elegance.

Appreciate the feedback. I'm still getting the hang of judging and your post in the judging handbook was of great value that I wish I had noted when initially passing judgement

loky1109

2024-02-03, 08:27 PM

Appreciate the feedback. I'm still getting the hang of judging and your post in the judging handbook was of great value that I wish I had noted when initially passing judgement

I hope my feedback will be helpful. Good luck and good future judgings.