PDA

View Full Version : Feats For Ferocious First (level) Followers!



BRC
2007-12-11, 09:38 PM
So I'm statting out some first-level followers for an epic campaign, I'll have alot of them so they will take the form of standard footsoliders. Now for fluff-purposes (I take fluff over crunch personally, so don't try to circumvent that) these followers are half-orcs (fluff-wise their hobgoblins, but Hobgoblins have a LA so I couldn't have them as first level followers, so were using the stats for half-orcs and calling them hobgoblins....don't tell anybody), so they only get one feat. Now, I'm either going to arm them with Longswords and spend their feat on toughness, giving them 8 hp (1d8+1 con bonus+3 for the feat, were just going to use the average to avoid keeping track of the health for over 200 soliders), or spend their feat on Exotic weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, allowing them to wield bastard swords one-handed and therefore with a sheild. If I do this they deal 1d10+2 damage instead of 1d8+2 , but they will only have 5 HP.
So in short, should I have them hit harder or have more health, remember that their mostly going to be up against 1st level warriors and will proably end up with about 17 AC (Chainmail and a heavy sheild)

Xefas
2007-12-11, 09:44 PM
Toughness, in my opinion.

3 guaranteed extra hp seems like a better deal versus lvl 1 warriors than 1 extra point of damage (which is only assuming you hit, anyway).

Not only that, but I think it's a bit fluffier than the mass production of Bastard Swords.

martyboy74
2007-12-11, 09:46 PM
With an AC of 17, it'll probably be more efficient to kill your enemies faster. That's pretty hard to hit at first level for an NPC. Coud you possibly make every 10th or 15th one a cleric that focuses on healing to help them? That's work really well.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-11, 09:48 PM
Well, it's a choice between giving everyone +1 damage (average) or +3 HP. You'll probably get more mileage out of the HP.

It might vary depending on how your DM runs mass combat, though, as there could be a bias for the best defense being a good offense, or vice versa. Also, consider arming half of them with Longspears or Glaives if you've got them fighting in formation. Tower Shields might be a good investment for cover bonuses as well.

Of course, anyone remotely close to your level or, hell, a sufficient number of wizards of fifth+ level with the element of surprise could cut huge swathes through your army if you've got them fighting in formation. What do your tactics look like? How are you deploying these guys?

TheLogman
2007-12-11, 09:50 PM
Dodge would give them more AC to work with, and Improved Initiative means your entire army is going before their entire army. However, out of the two you've mentioned, I'd go with the Bastard Sword, +1 average damage for 200 creatures is a lot. Weapon focus would help when fighting stuff of equal or more power.

Also, what ever happened to that Kobold Kommandos? I was always curious who won that.

Ulzgoroth
2007-12-11, 10:00 PM
Is the opposition comparably equipped? If you expect to face foes with AC 17 also, it seems like weapon focus longsword might be the way to go. 1d8+2 already is plenty of damage to drop a warrior 1 (who doesn't have toughness) most of the time. But if he's got matching gear, you only hit on a 14+.

Counting wounded but not down as no effect (which favors the big blade):
Bastard sword KO odds: 35%*6/10 = 21%
Longsword focus KO odds: 40%*4/8 = 20%
(if we assume the enemy keep fighting when disabled)
Not a win, but it does save on 35gp bastard swords.

Bastard sword KO odds: 35%*7/10 = 24.5%
Longsword focus KO odds: 40%*5/8 = 25%
(if we assume the enemy drops when disabled)

Toughness or dwarven enemies favor the bastard sword, fighting defensively on either side favors weapon focus. You didn't mention weapon focus as an option in the OP, but I wasn't sure you meant to rule it out.

BRC
2007-12-11, 10:02 PM
Hmm, I suppose so. Lets take a trip to the land of theoreticalness and run some numbers
*trippy theme music*
Alright, Lets take your standard human 1st level warrior. Lets say he is using the nonelite template and so has +1 str and +1 Con, everything else is irrelevant for this discussion.
Now, Marvin the Mook (Hobgoblin, this is an evil campaign so my troops are the mooks) has AC 17, while Rodger the Redshirt has Studded leather amor and a light sheild, giving him AC 14. Rodger has taken Toughness and because he's a human and needs to show off his flashy bonus feats, has taken Weapon Focus: Longsword.
Marvin gets +3 on his attacks, Plus 2 str bonus and +1 BaB. This means that he will hit Rodger on anything over a 10, 45% chance of hitting Rodger. With a bastard sword (1d10+3) Marvin has a 50% chance of dropping Rodger with one attack, with a Longsword (1d8+3) Marvin has a 37.5% chance of taking out Rodger in one fel swoop.
On the other hand, Rodger has +3 as well, 1 from his str bonus, one BaB, and one from his feat. But since Marvin has AC 17 Rodger needs a 14 or above to hit him, giving him a 30% chance of hitting, and he's using a longsword, but only gets +1 on damage. With the Bastard Sword Plan he has a 50% chance of taking down Marvin with one attack, while with Toughness he needs a 7 out of 8, giving him only a 25% chance of taking down Marvin with one attack.


Okay, we have alot of numbers up there, so lets distill them.
{table]Feat Chosen| Chance of 1-shotting| Chance of being 1-shot
Bastard Sword| 50% | 50%
Toughness| 37.5%| 25% [/table]
It looks like Longsword has it one. But maybe I'm reading these numbers wrong.

EDIT UPDATES: Woah, math takes time, alrighty, heres how things are going to work with my army. I'll get 220 1st level followers, about 120 of them are going to be these guys, who in addition to their swords will proably have halberds or glaives for when reach weapons are needed over the additional AC from their sheilds. They will proably be backed up by 60 Crossbowmen (1st level goblin warriors with high-dex and heavy crossbows) and lets say 20 medics (1st level adepts of some sort with ranks in heal who can truck them back to a medic station where they will have a wand of CLW.) The remaining 20 will proably be 10 Scout-Bombers mounted on Dire Bats (250g In the arms and equipment guide) and 10 Cavalry mounted on trained Rhinos (also 250g in the Arms and Equipment Guide). The Archers, Cavalry, Infantry and Batriders will be in groups of 10, each with a 2nd level sergent.

tyckspoon
2007-12-11, 10:03 PM
I would go with Toughness to help make them (relatively) safe against missile attacks. Without Toughness, a longbow or a crossbow has a good chance of dropping one (if you're using averages for everything involving these followers, a heavy crossbow is a guaranteed kill: Average 5.5 damage.) With Toughness, they need to roll high and cannot drop one of your warriors with average damage. The extra damage from wielding a bastard sword is totally useless if the bearer is on the ground bleeding out around a crossbow bolt in his lung.

If you want to improve the follower's damage, consider mixing in a few Adepts (Cleric would be better, of course, but if you could use PC classed followers I assume you'd have Fighters instead of Warriors.) and have them cast Bless.

sikyon
2007-12-11, 10:14 PM
Personally, I would have armed them with:

Bows: Hitting ranged targets like low level wizards
Glaives: Formation fighting to take the brunt of the fighting.
Longswords: Chargers/First Line

For feats, I'd go:

Bows: Any bow feat
Glaive: Combat reflexs
Longsword: Toughness


See, if an enemy deals 1D8+2 to your guys, then at 5HP you'll get killed on a 4 or more (5/8 chance) while with 8 HP that's only a 3/8 chance.

If they deal 1D10+2,, then at 5 HP that's 8/10 of being killed and at 8 HP that's 1/2 chance of being killed.

Your survivability goes up by 66% in the first case and 150% in the second case. On the other side, if you took bastard swords, then your kill ability goes up only 60% against 5HP targets and 33% agaisnt 8HP targets.

Go with toughness.

BRC
2007-12-11, 10:25 PM
So here are the way it looks like my standard troops are going to look

Troops
Hobgoblin Solider (using Half-orc stats), 1st level warrior
1d8+4 (8 hp)
Speed: 30 ft
Armor Class: 16 (Scale Mail+4, Heavy Sheild+2), Touch 10, Flat footed 16
Glaive Mode: AC 14 (Scale Mail+4), touch 10, Flat Footed 14
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 11, con 12, Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 6
Attack: Longsword +3 melee (1d8+2) or Glaive +3 Melee (Reach) (1d10+3)
Skills: Listen+1, Spot +1
Feats: Toughness
scalemail, Longsword, Glaive, Heavy Sheild, Javelins(?)

Goblin Crossbowman 1st level warrior
1d8+1 (5 hp)
Inititive+1
AC: 17 (+1 size, +2 dex, +4 Scale Mail) Touch 13, Flat Footed 14
Abilities: 9 Str, 15 dex, 12 con, 10 int, 9 wis, 6 cha.
Attack: Heavy Crossbow +4 Ranged (1d8 damage)
Feat: Rapid Reload (Heavy Crossbow)
Skills: Hide+5, Listen+2, Move Silently +4, Ride +4, Spot+2
Equipment: Scale Mail, Heavy Crossbow, Longsword

dyslexicfaser
2007-12-11, 10:27 PM
Perhaps you should look into getting pack tactics or shield formation or something like that? Take advantage of the fact that they'll be fighting as a group.

Also, even a shortbow or light crossbow would go a long way towards giving your followers options.

Riffington
2007-12-11, 10:28 PM
So they all get the same feat?

Just hope they aren't up against equal numbers of human warriors with DieHard....

Ulzgoroth
2007-12-11, 10:30 PM
I think you've got multiple math glitches there. Damage should be +2, not +3. Marvin hits on 11+, which means 50% of the time. More in that vein.

So chance to one-hit (BS): 4/10 * 50% = 20%
chance to one-hit (LS): 2/8 * 50% = 12.5%

Chance to be one-hit (BS): 4/8*35% = 17.5%
Chance to be one-hit (LS): 1/8*35% = 4.375%

Um, if that's done right I'd definitely go for the toughness. I can't find a good +AC feat, but if you could get +1 AC:

Chance to be one-hit (AC): 4/8*30% = 15%
...not worth it. Even +3 AC wouldn't be enough, so phalanx fighting isn't worth it.

(Corrected for enemy having 1d8+1 damage)

BRC
2007-12-11, 10:32 PM
Perhaps you should look into getting pack tactics or shield formation or something like that? Take advantage of the fact that they'll be fighting as a group.

Also, even a shortbow or light crossbow would go a long way towards giving your followers options.
Do you have any info on how to get Pack Tactics or Sheild Formation, as both of those sound very good if I can get away with them. They'll be backed up by dedicated crossbowmen, but I could give them Some bows too, it couldnt hurt.

The_Snark
2007-12-11, 10:38 PM
For the record: It's sort of a shame you didn't go with kobolds. Give them all Swarmfighting, and you can stuff your entire army into a small space for a monstrosity of an army that might as well have the Swarm subtype.

Sikyon's tactics are probably good, but here's how I'd organize it:

Type 1: Ranged bombardiers; they pick off important enemy targets, such as low-level wizards, and harry any army that refuses to close fast enough. Arm with longbows. Prioritize Dexterity, obviously. Give them either Weapon Focus (longbow) or Point Blank Shot; Point Blank Shot afford greater damage, but Weapon Focus gives better range, and part of the purpose of these people is to inflict damage on people who refuse to close with your forces. Give them a backup weapon, but something inexpensive. Like a greatclub.

Type 2: Front line. Give them a heavy shield and a trident. Why a trident, you might ask? Double damage against charges, that's why. Toughness is probably your best bet here, but Weapon Focus (trident) could also work well. A third option would be Shield Block, from Heroes of Battle, which would make them significantly resistant to ranged fire, but your average troops probably won't meet the Dexterity requirements.

Type 3: Pikemen. Give them longspears and place them directly behind the frontline. Reach and double damage to chargers means that now, any enemy foolish enough to charge is going to be sliced to meat. Any who don't will be bombarded by your archers. You want Weapon Focus (longspear) for these guys, so that they'll be inflicting damage more often and hopefully killing enemies before they get near enough to take advantage of the lower HP.

Type 4: Shock Trooper. Sometimes, your enemy refuses to come out and meet you, and that's when you send these guys out. Ideally, you have cavalry in this spot, but since buying horses can become expensive, you might not be able to. If you can get cavalry, give these guys a lance and Weapon Focus (lance). If not, there's nothing like half-orcs with greataxes and Toughness.

Any followers you have of 3rd level and above should be given horses and organized into cavalry; give them Mounted Combat and Spirited Charge and they'll be pretty devastating in a charge.

Edit- Phalanx Fighting, from Complete Warrior, would give the front line a +1 bonus to AC while wielding a heavy shield and a light weapon, and more importantly, another +2 bonus while adjacent to anyone else who has the feat. It makes for impressively tough frontliners, with an AC of 20, but the light weapon means you lose out on some damage and on double damage to chargers.

Da Beast
2007-12-11, 10:48 PM
Unless I'm missing something in the feat description, the 3.5 version of leadership doesn't limit you to NPC classes. Fighters, barbarians, rangers and knights are all much better than warriors.

BRC
2007-12-11, 10:49 PM
Some question thingys
1: I'm going with Crossbows over Longbows because my goblins get a dexterity bonus but a strength penalty, and won't have enough BAB For multiple attacks a round anyway and so if they have longbows they take a penalty due to their low strength, and since I'm using the nonelite template it's impossible for them to get a bonus anyway. I could use my "Hobgoblins" and arm them with composite longbows, but each follower only comes with 300 GP and as my level goes up I'll be getting more and more of these guys, and a composite longbow costs 200gp to take advantage of a +1 str bonus to damage. I might do that with some superpowered Composite Longbows for my Standard Bearers (Full Plate wearing Trolls with Power attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave, and Fullblades, I'll be paying for most of their gear out of my own pocket, but I only get 2 of them to start out since their 6th level followers.)
@ Bannus: My DM said NPC classes only, or else I would be using fighters.

Ganurath
2007-12-11, 10:55 PM
In response to the original question, with an alternative:

Human Mook, WF Longsword and Toughness: 8 hp, 14 AC, +3 hit, 1d8+1
Evil Mook Toughness: 8 hp, 17 AC, +3 hit, 1d8+2
Evil Mook EWP: 5 hp, 17 AC, +3 hit, 1d10+2
Evil Mook WF Shortspear: 5 hp, 17 AC, +4 hit, 1d6+2, double vs charge

Human gets charge: 5% chance of dropping Tough, 20% chance of dropping EWP, 50% chance of getting dropped by WF's readied action against charge before 20% chance of dropping WF, which is really 10% after casualties. Tough has 13.06% chance of dropping Human after casualties, whereas EWP gets a notable 26.4% to drop. One the WF's action the remaining 90% of the front line... I don't want to calculate the numbers when there are already wounded. As is, WF's 40% difference beats the 7.06% of Tough and 6.4% of EWP combined.

Even if Tough or EWP get the charge, there's no way either is going to beat the 40% casualty difference WF is looking at. Of course, I've yet to consider what Shortspear-wielding Toughs could do... *shudder*

Toughs with Shortspears, ordered to take a move action toward the enemy, then ready against a charge.

Edit: I would suggest longbows over crossbows despite the Strength penalty, for a reason that only comes up in war: bows arc, crossbows don't. Firing over your troops is better than firing through them, evil or no.

Ulzgoroth
2007-12-11, 11:01 PM
What if the enemy doesn't elect to suicide-charge? If they just move and attack, your damage goes to garbage. And you seem to have assumed the spear-users are the only ones allowed to ready action, which isn't exactly fair (though if the enemy does charge it doesn't make up for the other effects).

Hm. If you assume the enemy charges unless you have short-spears, that would be a more fair evaluation of their usefulness.

BRC
2007-12-11, 11:08 PM
In response to the original question, with an alternative:

Human Mook, WF Longsword and Toughness: 8 hp, 14 AC, +3 hit, 1d8+1
Evil Mook Toughness: 8 hp, 17 AC, +3 hit, 1d8+2
Evil Mook EWP: 5 hp, 17 AC, +3 hit, 1d10+2
Evil Mook WF Shortspear: 5 hp, 17 AC, +4 hit, 1d6+2, double vs charge

Human gets charge: 5% chance of dropping Tough, 20% chance of dropping EWP, 50% chance of getting dropped by WF's readied action against charge before 20% chance of dropping WF, which is really 10% after casualties. Tough has 13.06% chance of dropping Human after casualties, whereas EWP gets a notable 26.4% to drop. One the WF's action the remaining 90% of the front line... I don't want to calculate the numbers when there are already wounded. As is, WF's 40% difference beats the 7.06% of Tough and 6.4% of EWP combined.

Even if Tough or EWP get the charge, there's no way either is going to beat the 40% casualty difference WF is looking at. Of course, I've yet to consider what Shortspear-wielding Toughs could do... *shudder*

Toughs with Shortspears, ordered to take a move action toward the enemy, then ready against a charge. What sort of ranged weapons are you looking at?

I'll more likely be doing the charging then anything, story wise my character is trying to re-establish a (Mainly) Hobgoblin Empire, so I'll likely be on the offensive and my DM's not going to have the humans repeat the same tactic multiple times. However against humans I intend to attack at night whenever possible, to take advantage of my troops darkvision. I'll likely open my attacks by using Goblins mounted on Dire Bats (I can do it! its in the books!) to fly over and drop grenade-type weapons, Alchemists Fire, Tanglefoot Bags, Sparkstones, thunderstones ECT on strategic enemy targets, especially Spellcasters, though me and the other PC's will proably handle any big-time enemy spellcasters/threats. Then my Troops will attack, prefereably under the cover of darkness, I'll use my trained War Rhinos to break enemy lines with a charge (4d6+24 damage when a rhino charges) and send my toops in. large concentrations of low-level enemy troops will have any tougher targets hit by Dire Bat Bombers and Crossbowmen before my 2 Trolls wade into the fray with their fullblades, cutting a swathe of destruction with Greater Cleave while enemy attacks bounce off their full plate and natural armor. Meanwhile wounded troops will be roatated back to the Magically Augmented Stratigic Hospital where adepts with wands of CLW heal them up and send them back into the fray. In the meantime other adepts will be running around throwing healing spells here or there. Really serious targets will be handled by me and the other PC's or my sorceror cohort.

Ganurath
2007-12-11, 11:13 PM
What if the enemy doesn't elect to suicide-charge? If they just move and attack, your damage goes to garbage. And you seem to have assumed the spear-users are the only ones allowed to ready action, which isn't exactly fair (though if the enemy does charge it doesn't make up for the other effects).

Hm. If you assume the enemy charges unless you have short-spears, that would be a more fair evaluation of their usefulness.Well, your logic assumes the opponent values tactics above all else, and that the soldiers are disciplined enough to obey. My logic assumes that either the commander values glory and honor and orders a charge, or that the soldiers aren't disciplined enough to obey their commander's orders of restraint. I guess it all depends on the culture of the people being invaded.

@/\: Strike by night? In that case, forget shortspears. Light flail does the most for the least cost wise to make up for the cost of the armor, and much easier to produce en masse. Heck, make a deal with a Hextorian cult or something. My point about bows > crossbows stands.

dyslexicfaser
2007-12-11, 11:16 PM
I'm afraid all I could find was Pack Attack, which was: if an ally is flanking an oppone, you are also flanking an opponent. It wasn't what I was thinking of.

tyckspoon
2007-12-11, 11:16 PM
Edit: I would suggest longbows over crossbows despite the Strength penalty, for a reason that only comes up in war: bows arc, crossbows don't. Firing over your troops is better than firing through them, evil or no.

I know the classic volley fire image is a bunch of bowmen, but I'm not aware of any reason you can't do it with crossbows as well. Nothing in the mechanism prevents them from being pointed upwards.. or were you thinking of low arcs to cut in only a little over the heads of a charging front line? The rules don't really account for that.. rather, they make no distinction between bows and crossbows with regards to the cover and firing into melee rules.

@ BRC: You're getting the Elite (13 -> 9) array for your followers, aren't you? You could have the Goblins set up as Str 13 Dex 12 Con 11 instead; no Strength penalty and the same Dex bonus, although losing the Con bonus could be too much difference to make it worthwhile.

BRC
2007-12-11, 11:23 PM
Well, your logic assumes the opponent values tactics above all else, and that the soldiers are disciplined enough to obey. My logic assumes that either the commander values glory and honor and orders a charge, or that the soldiers aren't disciplined enough to obey their commander's orders of restraint. I guess it all depends on the culture of the people being invaded.
I'm going to have to side with Ulz here, my DM's canny, he's not going to let me get away with building an army built to be charged at, then have every enemy open with a charge. I think I will replace Longswords with Tridents though, same damage, Same cost, but can be set for double damage against a charge? Much better for this situation then an improved crit rate. As a Consalation prize though, I'll name one of my Troll Cleave-Machines after you.
@ Tyck: 13-9 is the nonelite, and that is what I'm using, but the con bonus is better then no str penalty, especially since I can just arm they with crossbows.

Ulzgoroth
2007-12-11, 11:42 PM
It might be worth thinking about the all-pike option. It takes your AC against ranged enemies down some, but it means your formations always get at least one AoO against approaching attackers (who don't have their own reach weapons). Even at the end of a charge. They charge fairly well, and if they don't have to move fast they can set up to hit attackers with 2 readied attacks and an AoO before they get hit themselves. The pikes'n'shields combo can weather archery better so long as the archers don't have high ground from which to attack over the front rank, but gives up both the AoO and the ability to drag the enemy out of defensive positions by poking from out of reach.

Also lets you issue Guisarmes all round, which are cheap...and have a 10/16 chance of dealing 8 or more damage on a hit. Though if you decide you need 9 damage, glaives work much better.

BRC
2007-12-12, 03:09 PM
I'm going to give my troops both Sheild/Tridents and Glaives so they can switch between them depending on the situation. Well they can't in the heat of battle obviously, but it still gives them more flexibility.
It looks like I'll be getting some undead to back my troops up (another PC is being a necromancer) who can function as meatshields

Deepblue706
2007-12-12, 03:20 PM
It's actually not a bad idea to consider Endurance - if you can have your troops march longer, you can get more men to the battlefield sooner.

Edit: Also, you can have your men sleep in any non-heavy armor without being fatigued. That's a huge advantage.

However, Combat Reflexes is also a good choice (for your pikemen).

Craig1f
2007-12-12, 03:32 PM
It's too bad you can't get two feats.

Endurance->Die Hard would be a great option for a bunch of soldiers that are just fodder. You'd lose far less troops, and they'd all basically have an extra 10 hitpoints.

If you have any higher-level troops, consider some Teamwork Benefits from PH2 to maximize the effectiveness of your archers. Although, you need level 4 troops for that.

Melee Weapons that can be thrown are a good idea. Tridents, axes, etc. That way, as your soldiers start dropping, they can throw their axes, and then just pick up the axe of the guy next to him that just fell.

Similarly, everyone should have two javelins, that break when used (so the enemy can't use them).

And although you don't expect to be charged on a constant basis, you should still have longspear-wielding troops, as well as longsword troops, and crossbow troops. I do like your idea of using crossbows instead of bows though. It makes sense. However, if there is any way that you can haste your troops, you're going to wish they were using longbows instead.

All your bowmen should also carry shortswords.

Craig1f
2007-12-12, 03:40 PM
Do your troops ever level? And are they allowed to retrain?

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-12-12, 04:04 PM
Hmm, I suppose so. Lets take a trip to the land of theoreticalness and run some numbers
*trippy theme music*
Alright, Lets take your standard human 1st level warrior. Lets say he is using the nonelite template and so has +1 str and +1 Con, everything else is irrelevant for this discussion.
Now, Marvin the Mook (Hobgoblin, this is an evil campaign so my troops are the mooks) has AC 17, while Rodger the Redshirt has Studded leather amor and a light sheild, giving him AC 14. Rodger has taken Toughness and because he's a human and needs to show off his flashy bonus feats, has taken Weapon Focus: Longsword.
Marvin gets +3 on his attacks, Plus 2 str bonus and +1 BaB. This means that he will hit Rodger on anything over a 10, 45% chance of hitting Rodger. With a bastard sword (1d10+3) Marvin has a 50% chance of dropping Rodger with one attack, with a Longsword (1d8+3) Marvin has a 37.5% chance of taking out Rodger in one fel swoop.
On the other hand, Rodger has +3 as well, 1 from his str bonus, one BaB, and one from his feat. But since Marvin has AC 17 Rodger needs a 14 or above to hit him, giving him a 30% chance of hitting, and he's using a longsword, but only gets +1 on damage. With the Bastard Sword Plan he has a 50% chance of taking down Marvin with one attack, while with Toughness he needs a 7 out of 8, giving him only a 25% chance of taking down Marvin with one attack.

wait a minute, if you hit on 11+ then you hit at ten numbers out of twenty, which means you've got 50% chance to hit, you've made this mistake multiple times. I don't know if it matters, but I just wanted to let you know.

Edit: also, how come your mooks armour is much better then the redshirts?

BRC
2007-12-12, 04:04 PM
My troops don't level, but I can get more of them. check the feat Epic Leadership in the SRD for more information. Troops will be in squads of 10 with 1 2nd level sergent in each,I don't get many troops above 1st level though, not nearly enough to be standard troops.
About Combat Reflexes, my troops couldn't get above a +1 dex bonus, so it would be a waste of a feat.
Right now each solider will have a trident, a heavy sheild, and a glaive, maybe javelin or two as well. I'll proably give my archers longswords and bucklers they can use if they need to fight melee.

Ganurath
2007-12-12, 04:21 PM
Alright, I'm confused. Are we talking about an army that formation fights, or an army that skirmishes with night raids?

Formation Warfare: Your ten man squads should be five by two, with the rear line using longspears/glaives while the front line favors the trident throwing axe. As for feats, the front line gets Phalanx Fighting from Complete Warrior, while the rear line gets either Toughness or WF Longspear.

Night Raids: Point Blank Shot and throwable melee weapons.

Either: Give the goblins Swarmfighting from Complete Warrior, they'll be INSANE.

Craig1f
2007-12-12, 04:29 PM
My troops don't level, but I can get more of them. check the feat Epic Leadership in the SRD for more information. Troops will be in squads of 10 with 1 2nd level sergent in each,I don't get many troops above 1st level though, not nearly enough to be standard troops.
About Combat Reflexes, my troops couldn't get above a +1 dex bonus, so it would be a waste of a feat.
Right now each solider will have a trident, a heavy sheild, and a glaive, maybe javelin or two as well. I'll proably give my archers longswords and bucklers they can use if they need to fight melee.

For such weak combatants, the extra 1 AoO from combat reflexes is not horrible. That's potentially two kills a round with performing an action. If you're going up against creatures who are charging, you'll hopefully kill the first one, and a second one will charge in its place. You'll also hopefully kill this one, then a third will charge in its place and kill you (well, your soldier).

Without combat reflexes, it's the second one that will kill your soldier, not the third.

MCerberus
2007-12-12, 04:30 PM
Don't give your archers shields. It means they'll try and use melee more and not escape/flee when they're attacked. Or possibly it won't come up because when melee hits the archers putting the shield on could be fruitless. Plus you can use that money for better armor for them.

BRC
2007-12-12, 05:23 PM
Alright, new question: I get 11 3rd level followers, what should I do with them, maybe have them as centaurs to serve as fast-attack cavalry? or mintours to be hefty bruisers. Or just high-level standard troops.

Craig1f
2007-12-12, 05:29 PM
Alright, new question: I get 11 3rd level followers, what should I do with them, maybe have them as centaurs to serve as fast-attack cavalry? or mintours to be hefty bruisers. Or just high-level standard troops.

Well, this is a good situation for either power attack->cleave, or endurance->die hard to maximize their effectiveness.

Some riding feats wouldn't be bad. Although, keep in mind, mounted soldiers are a huge arrow-magnet. Each one should have bodyguards, so these level 3 guys can escape if they start to lose.

BRC
2007-12-12, 05:35 PM
Well, this is a good situation for either power attack->cleave, or endurance->die hard to maximize their effectiveness.

Some riding feats wouldn't be bad. Although, keep in mind, mounted soldiers are a huge arrow-magnet. Each one should have bodyguards, so these level 3 guys can escape if they start to lose.
I might go with minotaurs and load them up wtih armor and sheilds, make them really hard to kill and use them to protect strategic locations.

MCerberus
2007-12-12, 05:38 PM
11 3rd level followers? The chart maxes out at 7. Anyway I'd say either support casters (druids if you can get any) or fighter cavalry.

Edit - what's your cohort up to? He acting as a captain?

Ganurath
2007-12-12, 05:41 PM
Alright, new question: I get 11 3rd level followers, what should I do with them, maybe have them as centaurs to serve as fast-attack cavalry? or mintours to be hefty bruisers. Or just high-level standard troops.Troglodyte Night Raiders with Brutal Throw.

BRC
2007-12-12, 05:41 PM
11 3rd level followers? The chart maxes out at 7. Anyway I'd say either support casters (druids if you can get any) or fighter cavalry.
Epic Leadership :smallbiggrin:, its an epic campaign and my character has massive charisma. Fighter Cavalry might work well in order to quickly reinforce trouble spots.
level 19 half-dragon sorceror cohort, he'll be providing general support. I get 1 seventh level follower who will be my General, he'll be an expert who's kept safe behind the lines. heres how it will work
220 first level: ground troups
22 2nd level: sergents
11 3rd level: Fast-attack cavalry strike force
6 fourth-level:?
3 5th level:?
2 6th level: a pair of full plate wearing fullblade weilding trolls with greater cleave
1 7th level: General

MCerberus
2007-12-12, 05:48 PM
Oh yes I forgot to look at the epic part >.>

Well here's what it seems your setup will be:

Longsword + shield infantry as level 1s
Level 2 sergeants (I'd suggest greatsword + PA)
Level 1 Ranged combatants
Level 3 - Shock troops or Cavalry is how it's looking
Level 4 - ???
Level 5 - ???
Level 6 - Elite guardians

Really you'd do a lot of good by sticking some casters with area spells in the level 4 and 5 slots. Not having magic is something that your enemies WILL exploit if you don't remedy the situation. Also how are you handling intelligence? Maybe a few scouts/assassins would be in order to take down their high ranking officers prior to the battle.

Edit - suggestion in one line.

You need casters. you need scouts. The shock troops may be nice too.

BRC
2007-12-12, 05:53 PM
Oh yes I forgot to look at the epic part >.>

Well here's what it seems your setup will be:

Longsword + shield infantry as level 1s
Level 2 sergeants (I'd suggest greatsword + PA)
Level 1 Ranged combatants
Level 3 - Shock troops or Cavalry is how it's looking
Level 4 - ???
Level 5 - ???
Level 6 - Elite guardians

Really you'd do a lot of good by sticking some casters with area spells in the level 4 and 5 slots. Not having magic is something that your enemies WILL exploit if you don't remedy the situation. Also how are you handling intelligence? Maybe a few scouts/assassins would be in order to take down their high ranking officers prior to the battle.

Edit - suggestion in one line.

You need casters. you need scouts. The shock troops may be nice too.
I would love to except that I can only have NPC classes. Some of my first level followers are, right now, dire batriders(250g in the Arms and Equipment guide), but I may do them as higher level followers instead, they can serve as scouts/bombers.

MCerberus
2007-12-12, 05:59 PM
How about adepts? Their level 2 spells aren't great but they'd make great buffers for your higher ups, and occasional healing isn't bad. Some lower level experts will scout and you can plan strategy better. You've still got the shock troops needing to be put in somewhere. Call them immortals or God Slayers.

BRC
2007-12-12, 06:02 PM
How about adepts? Their level 2 spells aren't great but they'd make great buffers for your higher ups, and occasional healing isn't bad. Some lower level experts will scout and you can plan strategy better. You've still got the shock troops needing to be put in somewhere. Call them immortals or God Slayers.
20 of my first levels are adepts, each one goes with a squad to provide some healing with the heal skill and spells, I could use some higher-level ones but they would only be able to cast afew spells a day unless I outfit them with wands.

MCerberus
2007-12-12, 06:05 PM
Hmmm you may want to have your adepts have familiars that can fly. That would be two birds with one stone. (the birds can scout)

Then you can have some monstrous baddie lieutenants.

BRC
2007-12-12, 06:05 PM
Hmmm you may want to have your adepts have familiars that can fly. That would be two birds with one stone. (the birds can scout)

Then you can have some monstrous baddie lieutenants.
Adepts don't get familiars Yes they do, hmm... intriuging.
Have my adepts at 5th level so their familiars can talk to them.

Ganurath
2007-12-12, 06:10 PM
220 first level: ground troups
22 2nd level: sergentsEleven squads of eight goblins with shortbows and Point Blank Shot, Eleven squads of twelve orcs with tridents and Toughness. Your sergeants are going to be Adepts who prepared burning hands and have wands of CLW.
11 3rd level: Fast-attack cavalry strike forceTroglodytes, with a level of Expert rather than Warrior for stealth skills. Sneak in, set some fires to the camps or poison the wells, sneak out.
6 fourth-level:?Third level Lizardfolk warriors, for coastal sabotage. Multiattack anyone?
3 5th level:?Stone Giant Siege. Brutal Throw kills them dead.
2 6th level: a pair of full plate wearing fullblade weilding trolls with greater cleaveI think we're done here.
1 7th level: GeneralA Hobgoblin with Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and max ranks in Tumble, Knowledge (architecture and engineering,) and Knowledge (history.) Those last two have key tactical value outlined at the end of Complete Warrior's third chapter.

MCerberus
2007-12-12, 06:11 PM
Alright you should likely start thinking about what you're going to be up against.

The human general will have cavalry with the bonus feat. This means if you get flanked, you'll be crushed by various bad things. They will likely match most of your infantry tactics except for two things:

Their archers aren't as good as goblin archers due to their dex bonus. They will likely, then, field yeoman, who will use bows and move up each round until they get into the fight.

Their higher-ranking troops will not be as conspicuous as yours. They will be humans, just with some better armor and leave a wake of destruction in your front line.

Also, they will be expecting a night attack, and will have extra lights and whatever they can get their hands on. You should think of a counter.

edit- also logistics. I suggest you adopt a Shermanesque strategy. That is, don't stop moving, eat all that you can scrounge, and burn what's left.

Ganurath
2007-12-12, 06:30 PM
Adepts don't get familiars Yes they do, hmm... intriuging.
Have my adepts at 5th level so their familiars can talk to them.Or just take a Raven familiar, who can speak automatically when they get the familiar at L2. Again, Sergeant Spellcaster.

Benejeseret
2007-12-12, 06:47 PM
You can take monsters but not pc classes?

I would see if you could get your sergeants to be marshals. They work for fluff as leading is exactly what marshals would/should be doing.

Ganurath
2007-12-12, 06:55 PM
You can take monsters but not pc classes?Correct. According to Leadership followers can only be commoners, warriors, or adepts. They do not, however, stipulate as to their species.

BRC
2007-12-12, 09:00 PM
Alright, heres what my force looks like right now.
1st 120 infantry in squads of ten, each squad has a sergent and a medic, 60 crossbowmen in squads of ten with a sergent and a medic, 10 dire batriders with a sergent, 10 rhino riders with a sergent. 20 medics (1st level adepts with lots of ranks in heal), 1 with each squad of infantry and crossbowsmen, the remaining 2 with the 2 2nd level adepts at the command post running a field hospital, the field hospital will have wands of CLW.
2nd: Sergents
3rd: 11 centaur cavalry, armed with composite longbows and I'm not sure what else, proably one of these combos.
Spiked chains with EWP Spiked Chain and Combat Reflexes
[Melee weapon] with WF [melee weapon] and WF Longbow
EWP: 2 bladed sword and TWF.
Run and WF[somthing]
In addition to being great standard cavalry/cavlary archers, these centaurs will be able to ferry a full squad of infantry around on their backs.
4th: 6 Minotaur Shock Troopers, armed with greataxes or something similar, dunno which feats.
5th: 3 5th level human (or somthing with +0LA) Adepts armed with wands of lightning bolt, possibly accompanied by aformentioned minotaur shock troopers.
6th: 2 Troll Cleave Machines
7th: 1 General
All adepts 2nd level or above will have raven familiars which will be used as scouts and to deliver messages.

BRC
2007-12-12, 10:12 PM
Here are some stats for those troll cleave-machines
Troll Mauler
1st level Troll Warrior
7d8+42 (73 hp)
AC 25 (-1 size +9 Armor, +5 Natural, +1 dex)
BAB/grapple: +5/+15
Attack: Masterwork Full Blade +12 (3d6+9)
Also
Claw +9 melee (1d6+6)
Space/Reach: 10ft/10ft
Abilities:
Str 23, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +3, Spot +4.
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave
Gear
Full Plate, 3000
Masterwork Full blade 400GP.
edit: it will cost me abit, but I'm giving my general a Crystal Ball with telepathy to help issue orders/ scout.