Pls PEACH new spell: Arcane Crash (Transmutation 1)

[BerzerkerUnit]

Arcane Crash
Transmutation 1
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Self
Duration: Instant
Components: S
As part of casting this spell you take the Dash Action and can move a distance up to your speed in a straight line. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and you can move in any direction, even straight up, but if you do not end your movement on a surface that can support you, you fall.

You can pass through spaces occupied by other creatures during this movement. Each time you move into an occupied space, the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or suffer 1d6 bludgeoning damage, be knocked prone, and pushed into an empty space of your choice out of your path. Each time a creature succeeds on this saving throw, you take 1d6 bludgeoning damage and treat its space as difficult terrain.

You can also attempt to pass through nonmagical obstacles. You must move at least 10 feet before impact and if the obstacle would deal damage on contact, like a wall of spikes, you take this damage normally. You can burst through 3 feet of earth, 2 feet of wood, 1 foot of stone, or a thin sheet of metal without difficulty and leave a hole in the obstacle matching your Size. You can double these thicknesses but take damage as if a creature had succeeded on their saving throw for each foot of obstacle or fraction thereof. Any attempt to break through such obstacles creates a loud crash that can be heard up to 500 feet away. If the spell would not allow you to break through such an obstacle, you take 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 5 feet you had left to move.


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Any feedback is appreciated.

[sandmote]

Lets see:

Misty Step, Far Step, and Scatter require line of sight.
Tree stride requires a particular type of portal.
Expeditious Retreat and Kinetic Jaunt are closer in level, Fly and Investiture of Wind less so.
And Blink and Etherealness bypass needing to worry about breaking through objects.
That's one side of the comparison, although I notice none of these can be used to create a breach. Compare to Passwall for that.

This probably makes a more effective expeditious retreat than expeditious retreat does, and turning into a warner brothers character is neat. That said (and I realize this is scope creep) but I think you'd need standardized rules for breaking through walls first, and then make a spell that interacts with those rules. I don't see any other way to have enough related material to compare the spell to in order to balance it on the axis of what it lets you actually achieve relative to not spending a spell slot.

And on the DM side, this would force me to have to regularly track the thickness of walls, which doesn't come up that often otherwise.

I think its a neat idea, but I'd bump a "break through walls" spell up to at least 2nd level and probably make sure I know what it does relative to a barbarian. Compare that Expeditious Retreat comes one level before but is distinctly worse than the rogue's Cunning Action feature. For a 1st level spell slot, I think that should probably remain the standard.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Lets see:

Misty Step, Far Step, and Scatter require line of sight.
Tree stride requires a particular type of portal.
Expeditious Retreat and Kinetic Jaunt are closer in level, Fly and Investiture of Wind less so.
And Blink and Etherealness bypass needing to worry about breaking through objects.
That's one side of the comparison, although I notice none of these can be used to create a breach. Compare to Passwall for that.

This probably makes a more effective expeditious retreat than expeditious retreat does, and turning into a warner brothers character is neat. That said (and I realize this is scope creep) but I think you'd need standardized rules for breaking through walls first, and then make a spell that interacts with those rules. I don't see any other way to have enough related material to compare the spell to in order to balance it on the axis of what it lets you actually achieve relative to not spending a spell slot.

And on the DM side, this would force me to have to regularly track the thickness of walls, which doesn't come up that often otherwise.

I think its a neat idea, but I'd bump a "break through walls" spell up to at least 2nd level and probably make sure I know what it does relative to a barbarian. Compare that Expeditious Retreat comes one level before but is distinctly worse than the rogue's Cunning Action feature. For a 1st level spell slot, I think that should probably remain the standard.

Thank you so much for your feedback!

I recall running a fair number of AL adventurers during the first 5 years of 5e's cycle and seem to recall most of the keep/castle descriptions telling you how thick the walls are and even describing them as so many of feet of stone flanking a volume of dirt or wooden scaffolding. The spell is written to be in line with Detect Magic on thicknesses, so if the PCs can detect magic through it, then you can Kool-Aid Man through it. But there won't always be magic on the other side and if the obstacle itself is magic in any way, you bounce off anyway.

Comparing to expeditious retreat is (I believe) not really fair because I've always felt that spell is poor design. If it were "For the duration of the spell, as a bonus action and as part of casting this spell, you can take the Dash Action." it would be pretty good.

Let me make the following comparisons.
Misty Step: I don't think this or other Teleports are a fair point of comparison because they don't have to account for terrain. Comparing to MS, what if I doubled the range but added that you took damage for any obstacles or hazards between your starting point and where you ended up, you'd still have to save for traps and it couldn't be used to escape a grapple. Now it's obviously terrible, so as a concession I give it the ability to move creatures you pass through, but only 5 feet and only if they're in a straight line, and only on a failed save, and you take damage if they make the save? Not exactly a side grade. Then I also make it cost an Action instead of bonus action.

Still sounds pretty terrible, so I eliminate the sight requirement, but add that if you aren't sure about where you're going it may fail and you could take an arbitrary amount of damage, for most as much as 10d6 for bouncing off something you can't bust through, like a door with Arcane Lock. It still doesn't feel on par with Misty Step. Certainly more complicated, and also more niche.

Bonus Action/Teleport is not to be underestimated and the "seeing space" requirement can be sidestepped with a familiar.

Knock is a spell that gets you through a locked door or magically locked door. Opens a chest or magically locked chest. It has a wide AOE for sound. Smaller than this spell though. It also doesn't risk you exploding on a trap or false door or arcane lock.

This is a spell that deals damage to you if you choose to use it as a skeleton key or Kool-Aid Man entrance. I can see why folks think that's it's a primary use, but as a level one Self spell, risking 6d6 or more damage may or may not be worth the effort.

Do I think the spell is good? As a 1st level spell, especially for Eldritch Knights, absolutely. If it were 2nd level, I'd find it unplayable.

[sandmote]

I recall running a fair number of AL adventurers during the first 5 years of 5e's cycle and seem to recall most of the keep/castle descriptions telling you how thick the walls are and even describing them as so many of feet of stone flanking a volume of dirt or wooden scaffolding. If they're thick enough to warrant infilling between the stone, they're too thick for the spell to work. Its more relevant where you'd be trying to get through a barrier thin enough for detect magic to get through, like a door. At which point I think knock thoroughly outclasses this anyway.


The spell is written to be in line with Detect Magic on thicknesses, so if the PCs can detect magic through it, then you can Kool-Aid Man through it.
Your spell also does allow breaking through surfaces that detect magic can't sense, up to "double these thicknesses." Mind, "double these thicknesses" appears to be what they were going for with detect thoughts, although I've synchronized the two at my table nd needed to double check the latter spell. So not as severe an issue as I originally thought, but maybe clarify how to determine the maximum thickness that's useable? "You can break through 3 feet of wood but take damage per foot," is a little odd.


"For the duration of the spell, as a bonus action and as part of casting this spell, you can take the Dash Action."

When you cast this spell, and then as a bonus action on each of your turns until the spell ends, you can take the Dash action. I'm going to be frank, I don't see any difference in what these two statements mean. They're different wordings, sure, but they seem to impact the action economy the same way. Does expeditious retreat have different text in older copies of the Player's Handbook?


Misty Step: I don't think this or other Teleports are a fair point of comparison because they don't have to account for terrain. Comparing to MS, what if I doubled the range but added that you took damage for any obstacles or hazards between your starting point and where you ended up, you'd still have to save for traps and it couldn't be used to escape a grapple. Now it's obviously terrible, so as a concession I give it the ability to move creatures you pass through, but only 5 feet and only if they're in a straight line, and only on a failed save, and you take damage if they make the save? Not exactly a side grade. Then I also make it cost an Action instead of bonus action. They're not one-to-one comparisons. That doesn't mean they can't be compared. I did forget Dimension Door at the time, for instance, but given it is explicitly a stronger version of getting through walls you can't see through there's still a comparison to be made, even if the comparison is only "dimension door needs to be distinctly higher level."

To misty step I was mostly focusing on the fact your spell can help your party follow the caster, which misty step doesn't do.


This is a spell that deals damage to you if you choose to use it as a skeleton key or Kool-Aid Man entrance. I can see why folks think that's it's a primary use, but as a level one Self spell, risking 6d6 or more damage may or may not be worth the effort.

Do I think the spell is good? As a 1st level spell, especially for Eldritch Knights, absolutely. If it were 2nd level, I'd find it unplayable. To clarify, I think it needs to be rebalanced, and rebalanced relative to other spells available using a 2nd level slot, not that this specific write up of the concept would be well balanced at any particular level. If its great with a slot of one level and unplayable a spell slot of the next level, I consider that a sign of poor balance. Even the 1st level damage spells I consider properly balanced have some niche that could warrant using 2nd level slot (ex: magic missile's targeting is more flexible than other spells with guaranteed damage, ice knife can be cast under silence, and thunder wave can push enemies into something beyond just getting you out of their reach).

Per the last bit, actual balance notes:

First, you say
As part of casting this spell you take the Dash Action and can move a distance up to your speed in a straight line. Given you are given the option to stop early, I don't think the damage when failing to burst through a wall should scale with the wall's thickness. Maybe damage for every 5 feet of movement before hitting the wall (to reflect acceleration), but not when the player shouldn't be punished extra for having a high movement speed. "The player can also take 10d6 or more damage" is also typically an awful way to balance spells, since you can't be sure how often how much damage is going to be taken.

Maybe something more like the following, to make the spell more predictable/consistent for the caster?

Arcane Crash
Transmutation 1
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Self
Duration: Instant
Components: S
As part of casting this spell you take the Dash Action and can move a distance up to your speed in a straight line. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and you can move in any direction, even straight up, but if you do not end your movement on a surface that can support you, you fall. you fall at the end of your movement if not supported by a solid surface.

You can pass through spaces occupied by other creatures during this movement. Each time you move into an occupied space, the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or suffer 1d6 bludgeoning damage, be knocked prone, and pushed into an empty space of your choice out of your path. Each time a creature succeeds on this saving throw, you take 1d6 bludgeoning damage and treat its space as difficult terrain.

You can also attempt to pass through nonmagical obstacles. You must move at least 10 feet before impact and if the obstacle would deal damage on contact, like a wall of spikes, you take this damage normally. You can burst through 3 feet of earth, 2 feet of wood, wood or dirt, 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, or a thin sheet of metal lead without difficulty and leave a hole in the obstacle matching your Size. You can double these thicknesses but take damage as if a creature had succeeded on their saving throw for each foot of obstacle or fraction thereof. Any attempt to break through such obstacles creates a loud crash that can be heard up to 500 feet away. If the spell would not allow you to break through such an obstacle, you take 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 5 feet you had left to move. Once you burst through one such obstacle, you must move an additional 5 feet before you can attempt to break through a second obstacle. If you attempt to break through an obstacle made of one material with up to twice the listed thickness or an obstacle make of two of the listed types of materials, you take 1d6 bludgeoning damage before you break through. If you would try to break though an object made from materials with greater thicknesses, you take 2d6 bludgeoning damage, stop moving, and the spell ends.

[BerzerkerUnit]

If they're thick enough to warrant infilling between the stone, they're too thick for the spell to work. Its more relevant where you'd be trying to get through a barrier thin enough for detect magic to get through, like a door. At which point I think knock thoroughly outclasses this anyway.


Your spell also does allow breaking through surfaces that detect magic can't sense, up to "double these thicknesses." Mind, "double these thicknesses" appears to be what they were going for with detect thoughts, although I've synchronized the two at my table nd needed to double check the latter spell. So not as severe an issue as I originally thought, but maybe clarify how to determine the maximum thickness that's useable? "You can break through 3 feet of wood but take damage per foot," is a little odd.


I'm going to be frank, I don't see any difference in what these two statements mean. They're different wordings, sure, but they seem to impact the action economy the same way. Does expeditious retreat have different text in older copies of the Player's Handbook?

They're not one-to-one comparisons. That doesn't mean they can't be compared. I did forget Dimension Door at the time, for instance, but given it is explicitly a stronger version of getting through walls you can't see through there's still a comparison to be made, even if the comparison is only "dimension door needs to be distinctly higher level."

To misty step I was mostly focusing on the fact your spell can help your party follow the caster, which misty step doesn't do.

To clarify, I think it needs to be rebalanced, and rebalanced relative to other spells available using a 2nd level slot, not that this specific write up of the concept would be well balanced at any particular level. If its great with a slot of one level and unplayable a spell slot of the next level, I consider that a sign of poor balance. Even the 1st level damage spells I consider properly balanced have some niche that could warrant using 2nd level slot (ex: magic missile's targeting is more flexible than other spells with guaranteed damage, ice knife can be cast under silence, and thunder wave can push enemies into something beyond just getting you out of their reach).

Per the last bit, actual balance notes:

First, you say Given you are given the option to stop early, I don't think the damage when failing to burst through a wall should scale with the wall's thickness. Maybe damage for every 5 feet of movement before hitting the wall (to reflect acceleration), but not when the player shouldn't be punished extra for having a high movement speed. "The player can also take 10d6 or more damage" is also typically an awful way to balance spells, since you can't be sure how often how much damage is going to be taken.

Maybe something more like the following, to make the spell more predictable/consistent for the caster?

Arcane Crash
Transmutation 1
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Self
Duration: Instant
Components: S
As part of casting this spell you take the Dash Action and can move a distance up to your speed in a straight line. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and you can move in any direction, even straight up, but if you do not end your movement on a surface that can support you, you fall. you fall at the end of your movement if not supported by a solid surface.

You can pass through spaces occupied by other creatures during this movement. Each time you move into an occupied space, the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or suffer 1d6 bludgeoning damage, be knocked prone, and pushed into an empty space of your choice out of your path. Each time a creature succeeds on this saving throw, you take 1d6 bludgeoning damage and treat its space as difficult terrain.

You can also attempt to pass through nonmagical obstacles. You must move at least 10 feet before impact and if the obstacle would deal damage on contact, like a wall of spikes, you take this damage normally. You can burst through 3 feet of earth, 2 feet of wood, wood or dirt, 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, or a thin sheet of metal lead without difficulty and leave a hole in the obstacle matching your Size. You can double these thicknesses but take damage as if a creature had succeeded on their saving throw for each foot of obstacle or fraction thereof. Any attempt to break through such obstacles creates a loud crash that can be heard up to 500 feet away. If the spell would not allow you to break through such an obstacle, you take 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 5 feet you had left to move. Once you burst through one such obstacle, you must move an additional 5 feet before you can attempt to break through a second obstacle. If you attempt to break through an obstacle made of one material with up to twice the listed thickness or an obstacle make of two of the listed types of materials, you take 1d6 bludgeoning damage before you break through. If you would try to break though an object made from materials with greater thicknesses, you take 2d6 bludgeoning damage, stop moving, and the spell ends.

Thank you for your feedback!

Expeditious Retreat is an Action to cast, my reasoning was it should have a bonus action cast and the text change would be necessary to allow you to use the effect the turn it is cast.

When I say unplayable as a 2nd level spell, it's explicitly because at 2nd level, preparation and slots it's competing against are the other spells you mentioned. I don't want "this other thunderstep" so boosting it to 3rd is a no go and as is, I don't think I'd have call to cast it instead of Misty Step, Knock, Rope Trick, even an upcast Thunderwave.

With regard to stopping early, that's not intended. The inference to be made is that you determine how far you're going when you cast the spell and that distance can be up to double your movement. I specifically note the Dash action so it can be combined with the Charge Attack feat and any other features contingent on Dashing (like I think Mobility or Athlete ignore rough terrain when you dash). But you set the distance and then you go that far. so if you plan to OH YEAH through a wall and keep going, but bounce off, it's going to hurt.

I did use some of the Detect spells as a template for what you can crash through, but deliberately altered them because there's no reason you should be stopped by a thin sheet of lead when you can punch through an inch of steel, but thank you for your recommendations and have a wonderful week!

[sandmote]

I did use some of the Detect spells as a template for what you can crash through, but deliberately altered them because there's no reason you should be stopped by a thin sheet of lead when you can punch through an inch of steel, but thank you for your recommendations and have a wonderful week! Yeah, I did somewhat feel I was getting excessive. Sorry about that. Really only commenting for the next bit:


Expeditious Retreat is an Action to cast, my reasoning was it should have a bonus action cast and the text change would be necessary to allow you to use the effect the turn it is cast. Both my Player's Handbook and D&D beyond list the casting time for Expeditious Retreat as a bonus action.