The Matter of Large PCs

[Catullus64]

I'm considering having a Giant race as an option for my next game, based around the Varl from The Banner Saga. Before I get to homebrewing the race itself, I wanted to take stock of the pros and cons of Largeness itself via the rules. As I understand it:

Pros:

Double damage dice for melee weapons (as per DMG p. 278, although this is strictly a rule for monsters rather than PCs).
Doubled carrying capacity & lift/drag limits.
You can grapple/shove Huge creatures, and can't be grappled/shoved by Small creatures.
You threaten more spaces both in melee and with AoEs.
You can physically block more spaces.


Cons:

Disadvantage with weapons not sized for you, which will probably be most magic weapons (also per the aforementioned DMG p. 278.)
You have to squeeze through Medium spaces, and can't squeeze through smaller.
Small and smaller creatures can move through your space (this could also be a Pro with Small allies).
Harder to gain Cover or to break enemy line of sight.


Are there any I'm missing? These can be either direct rules, or just indirect implications of being Large.

Looking at these pros and cons together (if you include the weapon ones), I think Largeness is very good, but not necessarily game-breaking. I feel that if it were a race's sole beneficial feature, and were combined with some counterbalancing concerns (increased food and drink demands, increased cost for weapons & armor), it would be ok. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

[P. G. Macer]

I think you’re underestimating the “You have to squeeze through Medium spaces, and can't squeeze through smaller” bit, because IMO that is game-breaking, but in the opposite direction from what you posited. I can’t check right now, but I’m pretty sure there are one or two adventure modules where the Medium-sized PCs are expected to squeeze to get through some dungeon corridors vital to the plot. A Large-sized PC in this scenario would be unable to complete the adventure. I could be misremembering and maybe no such scenarios exist in WotC material, but I have a distinct impression in my memory of at least one such situation appearing in an official module.

Also, while you included in parentheses that the oversized weapons rule only applies to monsters, not PCs, there have been multiple contentious threads on this very forum disputing this, and while I have no desire to re-litigate the matter, I feel that is worth noting.

[da newt]

I'd look at the enlarge spell and giant barb subclass for reference. With those the PC is nerfed a bit wrt weapon damage (just add a D6 or D4), I'd probably go w/ big weapons and armor = 4x cost (like barding) and are special order, but other than that normal 'you are large' rules apply.

While in a 5' hallway or standing in a 5' wide door they'd be squeezing so DIASADV to attack and ADV to be attacked. As for can they squeeze through a tiny space - I've only ever seen that come up once in a printed mod and it was an optional path. I wouldn't sweat it.

[Catullus64]

I think you’re underestimating the “You have to squeeze through Medium spaces, and can't squeeze through smaller” bit, because IMO that is game-breaking, but in the opposite direction from what you posited. I can’t check right now, but I’m pretty sure there are one or two adventure modules where the Medium-sized PCs are expected to squeeze to get through some dungeon corridors vital to the plot. A Large-sized PC in this scenario would be unable to complete the adventure. I could be misremembering and maybe no such scenarios exist in WotC material, but I have a distinct impression in my memory of at least one such situation appearing in an official module.

Also, while you included in parentheses that the oversized weapons rule only applies to monsters, not PCs, there have been multiple contentious threads on this very forum disputing this, and while I have no desire to re-litigate the matter, I feel that is worth noting.

I suspected this was a subject on which there was a lot of Discourse (TM). I have no particular intention to run official modules, though I think that having some dungeon areas become inaccessible to a Large PC (we're talking individual rooms and corridors, not whole floors) would be interesting.

I also usually default to 10' corridors rather than 5'.

[Damon_Tor]

Also relevant: armor which fits a large creature costs and weighs 8 times as much. Notably, this means that the armor of a large creature represents a much larger percentage of their encumbrance budget than a medium creature, and can be prohibitive. The same is true for weapons, but that's often less of a barrier.

I've houseruled centaur and minotaur PCs are large with no serious issues (in addition to several other large races available). I will note that centaurs specifically are required to use medium weapons (as their humanoid arms are effectively medium sized) but minotaur PCs (and some of those other races I mentioned) can use large weapons and I haven't had it be a major concern. The big cost difference in their weapons and armor is reflected in their starting gear: their budget is much more constrained and they'll often be stuck with large versions of simple weapons like clubs and staves instead of swords and axes, which reduces the damage bonus, and they almost always have worse armor or no armor at all.

[Lalliman]

If you’re going to do this, just embrace it and make them as physically powerful as they should be. Don’t try to make it balanced like the Rune Knight or Giant Barbarian because that just kills the point.

I would:
- Let them have the double weapon damage dice just like Large NPCS.
- Give them +1 HP per level for being Large, maybe even +2. This not only makes sense but it’s kind of a necessary counterpoint to the double damage dice, lest Large characters be glass cannons.
- Implement a rule that really should exist anyways: shoving and grappling have advantage against smaller targets and disadvantage against larger ones.
- Note that they don’t need to have a racial Strength bonus, since they already hit harder and lift more without that.

If you design your campaign appropriately, their effectiveness in direct combat will be balanced out by the impracticalities of being large. As P. G. Macer said, you do have to avoid architecture that fully locks them out of participating in the adventure. But aside from that, embrace the fact that human architecture wasn’t made for them. Doors and hallways are too small and require squeezing; bridges, ladders, and even wooden floors may not hold their weight; items made for human hands may be impractically small to use, especially if done in a hurry during combat. And don't feel like this is bullying your players - if I chose to play a Large race, I want to actually feel the difference, even when it's inconvenient for me.


Also relevant: armor which fits a large creature costs and weighs 8 times as much.
Given that armor is hollow, four times as much would be a more reasonable rule of thumb. That still makes plate armor monstrously expensive.

[JackPhoenix]

Also relevant: armor which fits a large creature costs and weighs 8 times as much. Notably, this means that the armor of a large creature represents a much larger percentage of their encumbrance budget than a medium creature, and can be prohibitive. The same is true for weapons, but that's often less of a barrier.

Not really. There are no rules for large-sized armor and weapons. The weight would be 8(ish) times as much by real world calculations, but nothing indicates that's true in the game. The best and closest example you can get is barding, which costs 4 times as much and weights double. Note there's still no modifier for the size of creature you're trying to armor. A barding for a warhorse uses exactly the same weight and cost as a barding for a cat (https://static.nationalgeographic.co.uk/files/styles/image_3200/public/mm10049_221116_00803.jpg?w=710&h=474).

[JonBeowulf]

Not really. There are no rules for large-sized armor and weapons. The weight would be 8(ish) times as much by real world calculations, but nothing indicates that's true in the game. The best and closest example you can get is barding, which costs 4 times as much and weights double. Note there's still no modifier for the size of creature you're trying to armor. A barding for a warhorse uses exactly the same weight and cost as a barding for a cat.
Would have been easy to add during design... add it to the list of missed opportunities.

For armor cost, I'd use 'horse barding costs 4x' as the base and adjust as necessary. If the large race is bigger than a horse, make it 5x. A cat, make it .5x.

[Samayu]

If you double the size of a creature, the cross-section of it's muscles would be four times the original size. Now tell me what the STR max is of this large creature?

The armor might be eight times the weight if you doubled the thickness as well as it's length and circumference. But with double the thickness, its AC rating would be much higher than similar armor at size M.

As for the pros and cons we can list rules for, don't forget squeezing through doors. This would likely come into play only when someone is holding an action to attack you as you come through it, but it could happen.

[P. G. Macer]

If you double the size of a creature, the cross-section of it's muscles would be four times the original size. Now tell me what the STR max is of this large creature?

The armor might be eight times the weight if you doubled the thickness as well as it's length and circumference. But with double the thickness, its AC rating would be much higher than similar armor at size M.

As for the pros and cons we can list rules for, don't forget squeezing through doors. This would likely come into play only when someone is holding an action to attack you as you come through it, but it could happen.

You seem to be applying real-world science to D&D; the 5e ruleset is not a physics engine, and we cannot assume that things like the square-cube law apply in a multiverse with Huge giants and Gargantuan dragons.

[PhoenixPhyre]

You seem to be applying real-world science to D&D; the 5e ruleset is not a physics engine, and we cannot assume that things like the square-cube law apply in a multiverse with Huge giants and Gargantuan dragons.

Yeah. Think of the cat girls!

[sithlordnergal]

You seem to be applying real-world science to D&D; the 5e ruleset is not a physics engine, and we cannot assume that things like the square-cube law apply in a multiverse with Huge giants and Gargantuan dragons.

Don't ys know, the gravity in all DnD worlds is just a fraction of what we experience=p