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View Full Version : Optimization Zinc Saucier XLIII: Cold Breath of New Year!



loky1109
2023-12-08, 01:24 PM
Welcome one and all to the Forty-Third round of Zinc Saucier challenge!

Here Playgrounders come to test their skill in, so to say, making cupcakes of fish or T-bone steak of green beans.

What exactly do you need to do? To make a build that has the same abilities and feel as the Secret Ingredient WITHOUT actually using it!

For this round I brought you a bit of Christmas mood. I want to ask you to call Snow Madden, say it with me: Sne! Goo! Roch! Ka! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0pcAuhpOeI) to make Rimefire Witch from Frostburn for this round.

Our challengers will have about 1 month to build a complete build up to Effective Character Level 20 using a 32 point buy and all official WotC D&D 3.5 materials (excluding Dragon Magazine, but including any WotC online enhancements) with the abilities and feel of a Rimefire Witch without actually being it.

Entries must be submitted by Sunday, 00:00 (12:00 am) GMT January 07, 2024. As usual, please submit your entries via private message to the chairman. Extensions are available.
Presentation would be best in the style of how the iron chef does their presentations, however any style is allowed so long as it is clear on how the build was made.

Judges will then have as many time as they needed to post scores for all dishes.

Contestants will be judged and awarded a score of 1 through 5 in each of 4 categories:
Innovation (Uniqueness in character concept, race, class, etc.)
Power (How powerful and versatile it is compared to the base class)
Elegance (What can only be described as how well the build "flows", i.e. not using lots of 1-2lv dips, sacrificing flavor for power or using flaws)
Ingredient (How well the build captures the abilities and feel of the base class)

Submission:
To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:

PM: loky1109
Subject: Zinc Saucier 43, Name of your Entry

For revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.

If you have questions about the contest that feel inappropriate to ask in the main thread, please PM me with "Zinc Saucier 43 Questions". Keep in mind that I am not a judge, and so questions about how acceptable X or Y might be to judges will get (at best) a guess on my part due to my somewhat limited familiarity with the competitive community.

Recommended style is as the spoilers below. The end of the second post has a link to a Google Sheet that helps show the layout, if that will help you with planning out your build.

NAME OF ENTRY


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



Please do not post details of your build on the board before it is ready, so as not to spoil the surprise for others. Similarly, please try to refrain from speculating on possible builds too much even if you don't intend to use them yourself.


Soulknife
Bard
Monk
Assassin
Barbarian
Warlock
Paladin*
Warblade
Pyrokineticist
Ninja*
Druid
True Necromancer
Dervish
Whisperknife
Epic Infiltrator*
Master of Vipers
Ranger*
Flayerspawn Psychic
Totemist
Walker in the Waste
Drunken Master
Cleric
Duskblade
Psibond Agent
Argent Fist
Fighter
Artificier
Knight
Spellthief
Factorum no cooks submitted
Dragonfire Adept
Battle Dancer
Illithid Slayer one cook submitted
Swashbuckler
Chameleon
Dread Necromancer one cook submitted
Warmage
Kensai one cook submitted
Dread Pirate
Familiar
Life Eater
True Dragon

*: Classes marked with an asterisk have had their original posts updated to reflect the final results.

This competition is inspired by the Playground Iron Chef Competitions and uses mostly identical rules.

loky1109
2023-12-08, 01:25 PM
FAQ:
Round section.
Q: Rimefire Witch, ok. What about rimefire eidolon and bond with it?
A: I don't force you to make two creatures for one, but I think it'd be better to emulate Rimefire Bond ability and relevant SI's special requirement somehow.


Q: How the heck do I even do this?
A: Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to select a combination of race, templates, classes, alternate class features, prestige classes, skills, and feats, meld them into a single character that progresses from ECL 1 to ECL 20, that is as close as possible to the secret ingredient as possible in look, feel, class/race features. How you do it is up to you, I recommend you read previous competitions if you are interested in seeing how others have done it before you. Capture the essence!

Q: Is Dragon Compendium Allowed?
A: Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

Q: What about 3.0 materials?
A: 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition. Here's a guide to most of what has and hasn't been updated (https://web.archive.org/web/20150620123627/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x). I strongly dislike how WotC "updated" Master of Chains, Master Samurai and Weapon Master and you are free to use 3.0 version of them. It's specific exception.
NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine #318, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.

Q: Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, Diablo II, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources?
A: The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Both Diablo II books are allowed. Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

Q: What about online sources in general?
A: If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.
I know at this moment WotC archive is shut down. You can use archive copy currently accessible via the Wayback Machine (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031211045/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/dnd).

Q: Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana?
A: A few specific things are explicitly acceptable. The elemental/environmental races, spelltouched feats, variant character classes, specialist wizard variants, whirling frenzy, aspect of nature, and racial paragon classes are legal. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten. Use of flaws to take free feats is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category (penalty for use of flaws for some other reasons is up to judges). Traits are -0.5 each. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed. In a similar vein, LA buyoff and fractional BAB are also disallowed. Bloodlines and the Retraining options presented in the PHB2 are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

Q: What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean?
A: As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.
However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

Q: What's the minimum score in a category?
A: Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is mechanically illegal by the RAW, the judge may give the build a score of 0 in Elegance, and proceed to judge the entry as if the offending material was not included. Failing to meet a special requirement for a prestige class does not merit a 0, but may qualify for a penalty, at the judge's discretion. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

Q: Creatures and templates with no listed LA are playable, right?
A: No. No listed LA is equivalent to LA: -. It is not suitable for PCs. If you use it, expect judges to look extremely disfavorably on it.

Q: So what's the deal with equipment, anyway?
A: There is no official policy on how much equipment you should list. Historically, judges have frowned upon "item dependent" builds, but unfortunately the definition of that has been applied to mean anything from builds that don't function if you remove one very specific item, to builds that so much as mention a particular weapon. Builds that don't list gear should be assumed to buy useful generics - items to boost their primary stats, cloaks of resistance, appropriate magical weapons and armor, and so forth. If a build would find particular items useful, they should be listed, but experience suggests that the more generic you keep them, the more favorably judges are likely to look upon them, as a build being shut down because the Thundering Bagpipes of Urist McTrumpetbritches were unavailable is considered a weakness. Similarly, requiring items in order to be able to qualify for things tends to be frowned upon.

Q: Do you have any other rules and guidelines on how to judge?
A: We do, actually, designed to try and avoid unpleasantness we've encountered in past contests. The things we've come up with to avoid repeating this are given below.

One Mistake, One Penalty

Judges are only allowed to penalize once for a given mistake. If someone messes up their skills and doesn't qualify for a PrC, ding them as hard as you like. Once. In one category. You don't then get to declare that because they didn't qualify for that PrC, they don't get those levels, and thus don't qualify for anything else. If Ranger is a common ingredient, ding them for Originality. Once. Don't also take off points for Two-Weapon-Fighting being a common ingredient.

Non-exhaustive list of examples:

Skills

Allowed:

Giving a penalty for miscalculating the number of skill points gained
Giving a penalty for not having enough ranks to meet a prerequisite
Increasing the harshness of a skill miscalculation penalty if it affects critical skills including prereqs


Not allowed:

Giving separate penalties for miscalculating skill points and for non-qualification where the non-qualification is solely caused by the miscalculation



Prereqs

Allowed:

Giving a penalty for not meeting prereqs
Scaling the penalty depending on how important the item that the build failed to qualify for is
Not giving credit for (note: not the same as penalizing for) tactics using feats or classes other than the SI that were not qualified for (but see below)


Not Allowed:

"Cascading" failures to qualify - declaring that because a build doesn't qualify for a feat, for example, it also doesn't qualify for anything using that feat as a prereq
Treating a build as having fewer levels than it does because of FtQ for classes



Other general things that are no longer allowed:

Penalizing because someone has chosen to build a tribute to an existing creative work
Deciding that a backstory has not met a fluff prerequisite well enough, or because its method of meeting it is "unrealistic". You may penalize if a fluff prereq is not addressed at all, but not for how well it is addressed.
Please don't base your scores off the scores of another judge.
Note that these are protections, not licenses. Deliberately taking a feat that you know you don't qualify for hoping to just suck up the judging penalty for a feat that you couldn't normally take is not okay, and may lead to your build being disqualified.
And some competition specific moments.

Since the goal is to emulate the Secret Ingredient, achieving much higher power than the Secret Ingredient is capable of is overkill and should be marked accordingly. Likewise if the build cannot match the power of the Secret Ingredient it should be marked accordingly. Individual judges can decide how much is too much, as each judge will have different tastes. The goal here is to prevent all entries being Wizard 20 because "they do it better."
For creature-SI rounds just polymorphing into SI isn't enough. Of course shape changing magic isn't banned, but using such straightforward approach should be penalized in the Innovation part.

Q: Do you have any contest house rules or clarifications to ambiguous rules?
A: Some that have come up in previous contests and needed answers to:

All creatures are proficient with any natural weapons they may have or acquire.
Bonus feats that are granted even if you do not meet the prerequisites do not require you to meet the prerequisites in order to use.
Able Learner's benefit applies to the level you take it.
Weapons from soulmelds are considered to be magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming DR.
Unarmed Swordsage grants Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1.
Not finishing Savage Progression is subject to a penalty to Elegance
One dispute per entry. Submit disputes by PM to the Chair.
NB: If you just don't understand what did judge mean you are free to ask (also by PM to the Chair). It isn't count as dispute.
Ghostwalk ghost is banned
Gold, silver, and bronze are awarded regardless of ties (e.g., 2 silvers does not preclude bronze)
Spelltouched feats are legal and can be taken just like any other feat when you meet the prerequisites and have the feat slot available.
The Variant Classes in Unearthed Arcana are considered ACFs.

Q: Can I submit more than one entry?
A: You may submit up to two entries into a given competition.

Q: Can I make edits or revisions to my submission?
A: As long as it is before the dishes have been posted in the reveal, you are welcome to revise or make edits to your entry. Please do so by sending a new PM with the changes incorporated.

Q: What is the chair's stance on builds with an "adaptation/variants" section?
A: If chefs have adaptations or variations on the build they want to present, they are strongly encouraged to put them together in a single section in the entry writeup. If you have a large enough variation, consider something like this linked build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25514412&postcount=108) which presents two similar concepts to be judged separately.
In a build where major adaptations or variants are presented that would alter the score, judges are free to score the entry based only on the "central" or "main" build.

Links amusement/edification:
Handy Tips for the Iron Chef in the Playground Noob
GitP Blank Iron Chef Entry (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BG0-5sq4dL9Ooh7-QfXuyHzO4rXSz-CRcj29t6BeUVE/edit#gid=0) (credit to mattie_p)
All you want to know about the [table] code

loky1109
2023-12-12, 02:48 PM
Folks?
Are anybody working on this round?

Quentinas
2023-12-12, 02:51 PM
I have an idea ..maybe i'm working on it basically

FactualArcher
2023-12-12, 03:00 PM
I haven't had inspiration yet, but I might end up judging

loky1109
2023-12-28, 03:38 PM
Everybody finished Monster Mash entries, many finished Junkyard Wars and Iron Chef entries.
Does anybody crafting something for Zinc Saucier?

Inevitability
2023-12-28, 03:50 PM
I looked at it for a little while, and I have a few half-finished ideas, but nothing really popped out to me. Maybe I'm unimaginative, but it feels like there's only 1-2 ways to emulate certain class features, and really hard to get them all and still make the build feel coherent.

...y'know, it's probably just me being too perfectionistic, but I'd rather work on builds I actually feel good about (for Villainous Competition), especially during a time of year as busy as this one.

loky1109
2024-01-07, 03:19 PM
Okay... Deadline is within several hours, but my mailbox is empty.
Does somebody need extension or we'll just say that this SI was bad and go to the next better round?

PoeticallyPsyco
2024-01-09, 09:46 AM
I like this round, but I don't think there's any way I'm going to have enough free time soon to create an entry.

FactualArcher
2024-01-09, 05:08 PM
I'm also not going to get an entry in. I don't think the round theme was particularly bad, but for me the fact that several other competitions were doing holiday rounds distracted me. I'd be fine with calling this one and moving on, but if anyone is working on an entry I'd also be happy to wait.

loky1109
2024-01-16, 03:19 PM
Okay. I don't see anybody wishing to continue this round. It's done. That happens.
This round is officially closed.

I'm opening voting for next round SI.

Do you want make:
1) Something old (it's prestige class)?
2) Something new (it's feat)?
3) Something borrowed (it's base class)?
4) Or something blue (it's monster, or more precisely - template)?

Voting will be open until there will be enough votes for me to see you have interest.

Invoked
2024-01-16, 03:21 PM
Emulating a feat sounds like a challenge I'd be interested in trying

Battlechaser
2024-01-16, 04:38 PM
Something blue.

Inevitability
2024-01-16, 05:55 PM
Something Blue sounds fun; I have a vague inkling what template it might be but would just as happily be proven wrong.

FactualArcher
2024-01-16, 06:00 PM
I'll jump on the Something Blue wagon.

loky1109
2024-01-18, 01:26 PM
Did everyone who wanted to vote vote?

loky1109
2024-01-22, 06:51 PM
New round.


Something Blue sounds fun; I have a vague inkling what template it might be but would just as happily be proven wrong.
Did you guess it right?

Inevitability
2024-01-22, 07:33 PM
Did you guess it right?

I did not! I was expecting vampire with the logic that it seems like a very imitable template; it seems I should have taken 'something blue' more literally than I did.