Why can't an Ascendant Dragon Monk turn into a Dragon?

[Dr.Samurai]

To expand on the thread title, what is the difference between allowing a druid or a wizard to Shapechange into a dragon at level 17 once per day, and allowing a monk to "shapechange" into a dragon at level 17 once per day?

For the game design peeps out there, why are martial classes constrained in this way even at these high levels? Another old example is storm sorcerers and storm clerics having a flying feature at high levels, whereas storm barbarians don't.

Is there an obvious reason that I'm missing that would throw things out of whack if non-spellcasting classes received really powerful features at higher levels? I mean... is "flying creature" STILL supposed to be a challenge for melee types in tier 4?

I often argue that I'm okay with martials getting super duper godly powers at higher levels, so long as I have a more grounded option to play with as well. But another point I make when those suggestions are brought up is that non-spellcasters don't even have somewhat powerful features at higher levels (generally) let alone features that rival something like a high level spell. And it struck me when looking at the Ascendant Dragon monk... why can't he transform into a dragon at high levels?

Why can't a storm barbarian do something like Chain Lightning at higher levels? An enchanter can incapacitate an enemy at-will and indefinitely after a failed save at level 2, while the Arcane Trickster gets Advantage as a bonus action at level 13...

I don't want to frame things as if everything in the game should be built around spells/magic (:smallyuk:) but I think it is useful to see that at higher levels there are 1/day spell levels that have a certain impact on encounters, and martials don't ever seem to tap into that power level.

Clearly a design intent. But is there room specifically in 5E to dramatically increase martial features at higher levels?

[Dork_Forge]

I think there is definitely room to expand things for martials at higher levels, but to expand on the specific example of Monk vs Shapechange, I think it's a combination of factors:

- Decision trees, you have to choose the spell and then choose the specific form and then choose to cast it. If a martial has that kind of ability it'll just be 'turn into X' and they'll likely do it most days at some point.
- Opportunity cost, you can do a lot with spell slots, a martial feature will just be do X for free, then resource for later.

It's not apples to apples is basically what I'm saying.

That said, I can see this kind of direction easily being more magic, when I want more mundane martials, personally.

[Witty Username]

For bad reasons, mostly.

1. 4e tried it, and everyone got mad.
2. Some people are in the camp that spell casters either shouldn't exist, or shouldn't cast spells. So any change to fighter types feels like trying to turn them into casters.
3. Some people are in the camp that high level D&D is bad and shouldn't be played anyway.

There is also some that see that as increased complexity, which simplicity is why they play classes like fighter rather than say druid. I have some sympathy for this one, since many systems I like are very much involved. Some people want to be the big guy with a sword that punches things.

I tend to like the idea of casters having less passive and at will effects, and martials having less active ones that cost resources.
I use the phrase Anchor and Playmaker. The idea that fighter and similar provide consistency to an adventure by reliability, will casters provide extra in momentary bursts to get to the next chunk. But frankly I will take almost anything over the current high level play for non casters.

Turning into a dragon, for monk, would be mostly fine in my mind, monk is already a bit complex, and uses resources. Something like 4-5 ki to become an Adult dragon for a minute would be something I would appreciate.

[Kane0]

Because it's Ascendant Dragon, not Dragon Descendant :P

[Silly Name]

From a design perspective, I do get why the Ascendant Dragon Monk doesn't gain "polymorph into a dragon" as their capstone: the capstone is building up on the previous features, making the Monk more dragon-like and improving their class features rather than overwriting them.

IMHO, this is a good thing. A capstone that says "you stop using everything else about your class" isn't as good as "your abilities have improved and you've learnt new ways to use them".

As for the matter of how foten the AD Monk gets to use its features, it's honestly not as bad as most other Monks, since it has a pool of "free" uses for Breath of the Dragon and Wings Unfurled before it has to spend Ki on them, and it's only Aspect of the Wyrm that has a singular free use before costing 3 Ki.

[Schwann145]

IMHO, this is a good thing. A capstone that says "you stop using everything else about your class" isn't as good as "your abilities have improved and you've learnt new ways to use them".

This gets into weird territory where mechanical class design has friction with thematic class design. The reason said Monk is trying so hard to become more dragon-like is because "Dragon > Man," and these particular Monk teachings are meant to help you bridge the gap. If this wasn't the case, then why try to "transcend" into being more dragon-like?
So, following that philosophy, the ultimate pinnacle of said philosophy and training is to be as dragon-like as possible, and nothing is more dragon-like than "actual dragon." Yes, that means abandoning your Monk abilities, but your philosophy already taught that Dragon > Monk.

[Arkhios]

Monk is supposed to become the perfect being purely by themselves, so if the culmination of Ascendant Dragon would be to turn into something else, it would kind of defeat the purpose.

[Silly Name]

This gets into weird territory where mechanical class design has friction with thematic class design. The reason said Monk is trying so hard to become more dragon-like is because "Dragon > Man," and these particular Monk teachings are meant to help you bridge the gap. If this wasn't the case, then why try to "transcend" into being more dragon-like?

Well, that's not really how the subclass is presented:


The fundamental teaching of this tradition holds that by emulating dragons, a monk becomes a more integrated part of the world and its magic [...]. But all this power is in service of a greater goal: achieving a spiritual unity with the essence of the Material Plane.

It's not just "dragons are better than [whatever race the monk is]". It's the idea that the path to illumination and spiritual ascension, which is the common goal of all Monastic Orders, is better sought by emulating the great and powerful dragons, who are already naturally attuned to the Material Plane in ways no other creature is.

The Ascendant Dragon Monk doesn't seek to become dragon-like in body, not primarly at least. They seek to resemble dragons in spirit and mind.

Fiction is full of similar examples: when a wise old master in a martial arts film tells their disciple to "be like the willow in the storm", he doesn't mean "yo, you have to physically turn into a tree while it's raining". He means "observe this part of the natural world, its qualities and resilience, and learn to emulate them, so that you may progress towards enlightment."

[Amnestic]

The Ascendant Dragon Monk doesn't seek to become dragon-like in body, not primarly at least. They seek to resemble dragons in spirit and mind.

AD Monks needed a feature about sleeping on their treasure horde.

[Dalinar]

Because it would cost 30 ki :P

[elyktsorb]

The Ascendant Dragon Monk doesn't seek to become dragon-like in body, not primarly at least. They seek to resemble dragons in spirit and mind.


I mean, they gain the ability to use a breath weapon, blindsight, resistance, and temporary wings. There's about as many bodily aspects as there are mental ones here, not to mention monks have that whole, balance of mind and body, sort of thing going for them. The idea that you become so in tune with the spiritual nature of a dragon, that you could become one, isn't that far fetched.

Funnily enough, if you were to be an Astral Self monk, nothing stops you from describing all of your spirit limbs and such as dragon ones.

[Dr.Samurai]

I think there is definitely room to expand things for martials at higher levels, but to expand on the specific example of Monk vs Shapechange, I think it's a combination of factors:

- Decision trees, you have to choose the spell and then choose the specific form and then choose to cast it. If a martial has that kind of ability it'll just be 'turn into X' and they'll likely do it most days at some point.
- Opportunity cost, you can do a lot with spell slots, a martial feature will just be do X for free, then resource for later.

It's not apples to apples is basically what I'm saying.
I don't think I'm quite understanding what you mean here.

What I'm suggesting (and this could be for anything but Ascendant Dragon Monk is what sparked the thought) is that martials could gain like 1/LR features at high levels that have the impact of a high level spell, something that casters can also generally do 1/LR.

So instead of gaining an additional martial die on their breath weapon attack, an AD monk could actually just ascend into a dragon form. This shouldn't break things because druids and wizards can already do this if they wanted to.

Another example would be something like the Battlemaster 1/LR gaining Advantage on everything and imposing Disadvantage against him, because he's a paragon of combat and Foresight already doesn't break the game.

That said, I can see this kind of direction easily being more magic, when I want more mundane martials, personally.
I'm of a similar mind. But for the space that we're in now, which is "virtually all martials have overtly magical abilities in one form or another" why continue to limit them even at these higher levels?

For bad reasons, mostly.

1. 4e tried it, and everyone got mad.
2. Some people are in the camp that spell casters either shouldn't exist, or shouldn't cast spells. So any change to fighter types feels like trying to turn them into casters.
3. Some people are in the camp that high level D&D is bad and shouldn't be played anyway.
I may not have been clear enough (what I get for rushing to post a thread right before my friday game starts), but I'm not suggesting that martials become spellcasters. More like using spells as benchmarks for what the game already allows. And if the game allows mechanics of that power level, why not spread the love? What is the different between a wizard casting foresight on the battle master, and the battle master being able to activate "Paragon of Battle" themselves 1/LR?

This question is born out from the following sentiments (not all of which I align with, but forum goers have mentioned):

1. High level martial features are uninspired and lackluster/weak.
2. Martials should become more supernatural/magical as they gain levels.
3. Martials have inherent weaknesses if there aren't spellcasters in the party.

Now, I prefer martials to be, by default, more mundane (barring all the D&Disms like surviving a massive fall, swimming through lava, swinging a sword 1000 times, etc.). I am fine with subclasses deviating from mundane however (current fighter is a devotee of Erythnul and can grow to large size and change his form, etc.). But even when these subclasses go full supernatural, the scope of the features is very limited.

There is also some that see that as increased complexity, which simplicity is why they play classes like fighter rather than say druid. I have some sympathy for this one, since many systems I like are very much involved. Some people want to be the big guy with a sword that punches things.

I tend to like the idea of casters having less passive and at will effects, and martials having less active ones that cost resources.
I use the phrase Anchor and Playmaker. The idea that fighter and similar provide consistency to an adventure by reliability, will casters provide extra in momentary bursts to get to the next chunk. But frankly I will take almost anything over the current high level play for non casters.
I prefer to play the big guy that punches things, but I also like complexity in my game. But I prefer passive features over resource features that require activation. For me, I want the complexity to come from the environment and the enemies and other circumstances of the encounter; I'm less interested in my own character having a lot of buttons to manage and activate.

Turning into a dragon, for monk, would be mostly fine in my mind, monk is already a bit complex, and uses resources. Something like 4-5 ki to become an Adult dragon for a minute would be something I would appreciate.
I was thinking 1/LR. Since Ki replenish on a short rest, you don't think this might be too frequent?

Because it's Ascendant Dragon, not Dragon Descendant :P
Lol, fair enough :smallbiggrin:

Well, that's not really how the subclass is presented:
I noticed this as well before posting. However, the monk is definitely getting a bunch of physical tangible features in this pursuit, so I agree with Elyktsorb that turning into a dragon seems in line with the goals of the subclass.

Still, it's an example. The question is really about mechanics and power levels, and why an Arcane Trickster can't steal 9th level spells and have the power to cast them once in the next 24 hours or something. Why limit these features?

AD Monks needed a feature about sleeping on their treasure horde.
:smallamused:

This would be a great ribbon feature for AD Monks; something like if you pile all the coins you are carrying and sleep on them during a short rest, you regain additional hit points equal to a roll of your martial arts die if you spend any hit dice. [I don't know, not a game designer lol.]

[Psyren]

What I'm suggesting (and this could be for anything but Ascendant Dragon Monk is what sparked the thought) is that martials could gain like 1/LR features at high levels that have the impact of a high level spell, something that casters can also generally do 1/LR.


I don't have a problem with this, and the spell in question wouldn't even need any components. Essentially the martial would be bypassing a lot of the hoopla of standard spellcasting in order to bring about a specific magical effect thematically tied to their area of focus. A current example would be theHorizon Walker's ability to cast Etherealness (a 7th-level spell) once per rest, albeit a lesser version. Referencing the spell saves a lot of text in the feature, it helps the table in general get more familiar with the ins and outs of high-level spells, and you're all but guaranteed an effect that is powerful enough for the level you get it at - win/win/win.



I was thinking 1/LR. Since Ki replenish on a short rest, you don't think this might be too frequent?


One way you could handle this would be "This is usable 1/LR, but if you have no uses remaining, you can spend X amount of ki/disc to use it again." Similar to the Soulknife's Rend Mind capstone.

[J-H]

Sometimes the powerful capstones come from subclasses, other times from the base class. And then yes, sometimes they just are missing.

Barbarian: Stronger and tougher, but not super great. Their capstones are at levels 14 (Zealot becomes unkillable, Eagle can fly) and 16 (unstoppable rages).

Fighter: 18th level features vary, although all of them get an extra Action Surge, which is moderately supernatural. Champions get regeneration, but it's too limited. Battlemasters get a minor dice size boost, which is weak. Samurai is really good. Not great, although piling on tons of attacks at 20 is nice if you have a good legendary weapon.

Monk: 18th level is the capstone. You can go invisible for 1 minute while being as resistant to everything as a Bearbarian, and astral project. Then you take your last two levels in rogue or fighter. Level 20 is weak.

Paladin: Subclass gives you your level 20 capstone. The Vengeance Paladin one involves sprouting wings (60' speed) and emanating a fear aura for 1 hour, which is pretty sweet. Crown gives BPS (non-magic) resistance and advantage on Wisdom and Death(!) saves. Glory gives a reroll each turn for an attack and for a failed save. Pretty good stuff.

Ranger: At 14, you get a BA Hide like a rogue, at 18 you can sense and attack invisible creatures unerringly, and then the level 20 Foe Slayer is pretty sad and disappointing.

Rogue: At 14, you get blindsense; at 15, wisdom saves; at 18, nobody ever gets advantage, and then level 20 is very disappointing.

Some of the sense boosts are at least into low-level superhero range, but of course rely on your DM actually throwing invisible creatures at you. Or monks. Four 18th level monks would be a solid challenge for most 18th level parties.

[KorvinStarmast]

I like the idea of the Monk at level 17 turning into a young dragon. (CR roughly 8 or 9, which is roughly half of character level).
For an hour (like polymorph) once per rest, or once per long rest. But I'd like to see the dragon have to be lawful, since monks (at least in most editions) have a strong lawful bent thematically. Something like a Silver or Green dragon, with their lawful bent.

[Amechra]

AD Monks needed a feature about sleeping on their treasure horde.

If you need a feature for that, are you really an adventurer? :smalltongue:

...

I'm personally not a fan of giving high-level martials "1/X you can emulate a spell" features because I got very tired of that back in the 3.X days. It's also a bit cowardly in my opinion — if you want the Monk to turn into a kung-fu wielding dragon at 17th level, just do that.

[Slipjig]

Another old example is storm sorcerers having a flying feature at high levels, whereas storm barbarians don't.

Is there an obvious reason that I'm missing that would throw things out of whack if non-spellcasting classes received really powerful features at higher levels? I mean... is "flying creature" STILL supposed to be a challenge for melee types in tier 4?

In those specific cases, I think the short answer is that Storm Sorceror was clearly inspired the X-Men's Storm (who flies at will), while Storm Barbarian was clearly inspired by Marvel's Thor (who doesn't (or sort of does, but he gets his sort-of flight from a magic item, like a good martial)). There's no reason you CAN'T make a martial that flies at will, but that's an extremely powerful class ability, especially for anything that has class features compatible with archery. And we're talking about, what, two caster subclasses that have "fly at will" as an ability? It's not like it's the norm for casters.

As for flying... yes, if you haven't picked up a way to fly, flying creatures are going to be a problem, especially for players who refuse to carry any ranged weapons because "they don't fit my concept". But that's also partially on your DM, because if he KNOWS none of you can fly, throwing an archer on a Pegasus at you is simply a jerkface move (unless he either warns you about it ahead of time or provides an environmental way to engage your target).

[Psyren]

I like the idea of the Monk at level 17 turning into a young dragon. (CR roughly 8 or 9, which is roughly half of character level).
For an hour (like polymorph) once per rest, or once per long rest. But I'd like to see the dragon have to be lawful, since monks (at least in most editions) have a strong lawful bent thematically. Something like a Silver or Green dragon, with their lawful bent.

I don't mind some subclasses being linked to specific alignments, but entire classes being restricted like that is something I don't miss.



I'm personally not a fan of giving high-level martials "1/X you can emulate a spell" features because I got very tired of that back in the 3.X days. It's also a bit cowardly in my opinion — if you want the Monk to turn into a kung-fu wielding dragon at 17th level, just do that.

By having it key off a spell though, you answer all kinds of questions, e.g." will this stack with Enlarge?" "Do I keep my own hit points?" "What happens to my equipment" without every class that gets one of these needing a feature entry the size of Wild Shape.

[Kane0]

By having it key off a spell though, you answer all kinds of questions, e.g." will this stack with Enlarge?" "Do I keep my own hit points?" "What happens to my equipment" without every class that gets one of these needing a feature entry the size of Wild Shape.
Or have transforming covered in one place in the rules, so every spell or feature that lets you do it doesnt have you do it in its own way that it has to spell out.

He says while glaring at pets, summons and familiars

[Amnestic]

By having it key off a spell though, you answer all kinds of questions, e.g." will this stack with Enlarge?" "Do I keep my own hit points?" "What happens to my equipment" without every class that gets one of these needing a feature entry the size of Wild Shape.

Honestly I'd rather they say "You can Wild Shape, as a druid, with these caveats" instead of "You can Shapechange, as the spell, with these caveats".

[hamishspence]

Liu Kang's Animality from the Mortal Kombat series could be an example of a "Monk turn into dragon" ability in fiction.

[Schwann145]

As for flying... yes, if you haven't picked up a way to fly, flying creatures are going to be a problem, especially for players who refuse to carry any ranged weapons because "they don't fit my concept".

To be fair, the devs specifically designed some classes to be awful at range, namely Barbarians and Paladins. They're meant to be low-Dex/high-Str, and thrown weapons are drastically shorter distance than fired ones. ;(

[J-H]

Unfortunately, nets have an extremely short range of 5'/15'. If they had a range of 15'/30', I think they'd get used a lot more often against flying creatures.

[Blatant Beast]

A Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer can’t turn into a dragon either, as the Shapechange spell is not on the Sorcerer Spell List. WotC is consistent in this regard, no dragon form for those classes/subclasses for which it would be most thematic.

They aren’t Lizards of the Coast, afterall.

[Arkhios]

They aren’t Lizards of the Coast, afterall.

One could argue that dragons aren't lizards, either.

nor monks, nor sorcerers, to be fair...


THAT SAID... it is weird that sorcerers (in general) can't get the spell to turn into one, like wizards do. Everything was better when sorcerers and wizards shared the same spell list, barring one spell (in 3.5)

[Dr.Samurai]

I wouldn't expect a draconic sorcerer to transform into a dragon though. "Draconic" is the source of their magic power (spells). Ascendant Dragon monks... well, it's in the name.

That said, sorcerers already have class features that on par with high level spells... their high level spells. The point is why don't martials get something like this.

J-H actually brings up an interesting point about subclass levels. I'm currently playing a Rune Knight fighter (level 13). My fighter has almost died several times and the DM has asked me what I would play if this character died. I am really enjoying the character, as is the DM, so I suggested I'd play a Reborn Path of the Giant Barbarian as the same character having come back to life because he hasn't fulfilled his revenge mission.

Well, a Rune Knight fighter doesn't get to Huge size until level 18, because that's the fighter subclass capstone. A Path of the Giant barbarian can grow to Huge size at next level, level 14. Because that's the barbarian subclass capstone. So the differing capstone levels do make a difference.

[Slipjig]

To be fair, the devs specifically designed some classes to be awful at range, namely Barbarians and Paladins. They're meant to be low-Dex/high-Str, and thrown weapons are drastically shorter distance than fired ones. ;(

True, but I think that the built-in assumption by the Devs was that the PARTY should be able to engage with a foe (e.g. the casters will put Fly on the martials).

And, given the proper environment, something with a Climb or Swim speed could be just as vexing to the melee martials, let alone an opponent who gets lucky on the Blink rolls and spends multiple turns ethereal. There are a lot of tactical scenarios where the "all I do is melee" character just isn't going to get to contribute much (without support from either casters or magic items). But I also view the "all I do is melee" types as more or less the Redcoats from the American Revolution: "We're really good at exactly one way of fighting, and we get REALLY upset when enemies refuse to fight the way we want. Just look at all these cowardly colonials taking cover instead of forming orderly ranks for us to shoot at!"

[Psyren]

A Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer can’t turn into a dragon either, as the Shapechange spell is not on the Sorcerer Spell List. WotC is consistent in this regard, no dragon form for those classes/subclasses for which it would be most thematic.

They do get Draconic Transformation though, so... maybe the AD monk could get that?

[Yakk]

The Ascended Way of the Ascendant Dragon

Draconic Disciple

At 3rd level

Draconic Presence. If you fail a Charisma (Intimidation) or Charisma (Persuasion) check, you can use your reaction to reroll the check at the cost of one Ki.

Draconic Strike. When you damage a target with an unarmed strike, you can change the damage type to acid, cold, fire, lightning, or poison.

Tongue of Dragons. You learn to speak, read, and write Draconic or one other language of your choice.

Draconic Wind. When you Step of the Wind, you gain a fly speed equal to your speed until the end of your current turn. If you are not supported at the end of your turn, you fall.

Breath of the Dragon

The power is recharge 56 instead of proficiency bonus times/day.

Wings Unfurled

At 6th level when you use your Step of the Wind, the fly speed gained from Draconic Wind lasts for 10 minutes.

Aspect of the Wyrm

At 11th level:

You gain resistance to acid, cold, fire, lightning, or poison (you choose). You can change which you have resistance to by expending an action and a Ki.

Your skin toughens and grows scales. While unarmored you gain an additional AC bonus equal to your Charisma bonus (min +1).

As a bonus action you can extend a draconic aura 30'. Allies within that aura gain your resistance from this feature, and enemies within this aura must make a wisdom saving throw or become frightened of you whenever you make an attack. Creatures who succeed at this saving throw are immune to its effects for 24 hours. Creatures who are frightened of you may repeat the saving throw at the end of their turns.

Ascendant Aspect

At 17th level you gain blindsight 30', the range of your dragon breath doubles and you can spend up to your proficiency bonus Ki to increase the damage by a martial arts die per Ki.

As an action you may choose to ascend become a Huge dragon. While ascended:

* You have advantage on all saving throws, attack rolls and ability checks.
* Your equipment merges with your form. While in your ascended form, you cannot use it.
* Your current and maximum HP increase by 200.
* Once per turn you may replace an unarmed attack with a Bite. This unarmed attack deals an extra 2 monk damage dice piercing damage, and you can grapple and restrain medium or smaller creatures hit by it (escape DC equal to your Ki save DC). While you have a creature grappled by this you cannot attack a different creature with your Bite.
* Other unarmed attacks on your turn deal an extra monk damage die of slashing or bludgeoning damage.
* You can use both Step of the Wind and Flurry of Blows without expending Ki once on your turn.
* Your flying movement speed and blindsight range doubles
* If you fail a saving throw, you can expend a Ki and instead pass it; but you can only do this 3 times.

At the start of each turn you are Ascended you must spend a Ki or revert to your mortal form.

Once you have Ascended, you cannot do so until you have completed a long rest.

---

I mean, that isn't "shapechange into a dragon", but you basically did.

[KorvinStarmast]

A Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer can’t turn into a dragon either, as the Shapechange spell is not on the Sorcerer Spell List. WotC is consistent in this regard, no dragon form for those classes/subclasses for which it would be most thematic.

They aren’t Lizards of the Coast, afterall.
I think that the dragon summoning spell is on the sorcerer list in Fizban's, yes? (Check in a bit ..)

[Psyren]

I think that the dragon summoning spell is on the sorcerer list in Fizban's, yes? (Check in a bit ..)

It is, as is Draconic Transformation.

[KorvinStarmast]

It is, as is Draconic Transformation. Thanks. Not near books at the moment. There were some spells that seemed to me "Dragon!" and yet I didn't see them as being added to the Sorcerer list, which made me go "What?" :smallconfused:

FWIW: as I DM, most Adult and Ancient Dragons are spell caster vartiant Dargons, and I use the Sorcerer list as my baseline.
(For a few dragons I toss in a cleric spell here and there, but mostly stick to the Sorcerer list).

[Guy Lombard-O]

J-H actually brings up an interesting point about subclass levels. I'm currently playing a Rune Knight fighter (level 13). My fighter has almost died several times and the DM has asked me what I would play if this character died. I am really enjoying the character, as is the DM, so I suggested I'd play a Reborn Path of the Giant Barbarian as the same character having come back to life because he hasn't fulfilled his revenge mission.

Well, a Rune Knight fighter doesn't get to Huge size until level 18, because that's the fighter subclass capstone. A Path of the Giant barbarian can grow to Huge size at next level, level 14. Because that's the barbarian subclass capstone. So the differing capstone levels do make a difference.

I've been of the opinion that the giant's might feature should have included (somewhere around level 10) allowing a single use of that feature to transform/shapechange into an actual giant once a day. Perhaps a limited form of it, where you retain your fighter levels and features, and use your own HP, but still get things like the resistances, higher damage from weapons, size strength and throwing abilities. With the more powerful giant forms phasing in over the next 10 levels.

[Blatant Beast]

I think that the dragon summoning spell is on the sorcerer list in Fizban's, yes? (Check in a bit ..)

It is. The issue, I have, is Fizban’s is fairly late in the 5e development cycle.

It is a well documented phenomenon for D&D Editions, that the Core books sell well, and the sales start dropping off with each subsequent book, until rebrand.

There are, I would imagine plenty of games that don’t use Fizban’s because they do not have the book.

It would be sorta nice if the Devs could have the time to make sure that archetypes that appear in the core PHB have enough thematic support from day one, not nearly a decade later….but perhaps I am being too idealistic.

Makes me dread what happens with 1DnD, (and with fresh layoffs at Hasbro/WotC just announced).

[Psyren]

No matter how desirable a given concept or expression might be, the official devs can't make them all. At that point, we as the community have to fill in the blanks.

Even if they were somehow to take another swing at Dragon Monk though, I think its capstone is the least of its problems.

[Blatant Beast]

I do not believe anyone is asking WotC, to make support for all archetypes.
What I am asking, is the Devs put sufficient thought and support for the classes and concepts they release in the PHB, so that it does not take 10 years for a concept to be completed, or for some people to be considered playable.

I’m not expecting the Devs to support the idea of a Lobster/Aquatic Creature Sorcerer, as that might be viewed as a bit niche.

A Dragon Sorcerer, however, fits into the rather large Niche of 'Dragon Related', in a game named Dungeons and Dragons....seems important enough for a Dev to give some deep consideration.

The Dragon Ascendant is almost good as is, it just needs a bit more baking as Yakk demonstrated.

[Dr.Samurai]

It's not whether the capstone is fine as is.

It's about creating a level of power at certain levels, and only allowing certain classes to access it.

Non-spellcasters don't get spells, obviously. But they also don't get resource-features that have the power of a spell of similar level.

Less choices, less resources, and less power. All the way around. It's not obvious to me that it has to be this way if you choose not to play a spellcaster, and I wonder if other games have a more equitable design.

[Blatant Beast]

Non-spellcasters don't get spells, obviously. But they also don't get resource-features that have the power of a spell of similar level.


While this is mostly true, I think there are Capstones that come close or are difficult to assign a spell level to. The Oath of the Watcher ability, Mortal Bulwark, requires a bonus Action and grants for 1 minute:

Truesight with 120' Range
A Banishment spell effect that triggers on an successful Attack Roll, and does not require Concentration.

While this is not equivalent to a 9th level spell, it is certainly better than most 5th level spells, and probably around the power level of 7th or 8th level spell.

Ironically, the power works quite well with a Paladin that has acquired Eldritch Blast through a Feat..cause WotC is going to WotC.

[Dr.Samurai]

While this is mostly true, I think there are Capstones that come close or are difficult to assign a spell level to. The Oath of the Watcher ability, Mortal Bulwark, requires a bonus Action and grants for 1 minute:

Truesight with 120' Range
A Banishment spell effect that triggers on an successful Attack Roll, and does not require Concentration.

While this is not equivalent to a 9th level spell, it is certainly better than most 5th level spells, and probably around the power level of 7th or 8th level spell.

Ironically, the power works quite well with a Paladin that has acquired Eldritch Blast through a Feat..cause WotC is going to WotC.
Very true; the generalization doesn't hold true across the board.

And interesting interaction with Mortal Bulwark and Eldritch Blast lol. Bamf Bamf Bamf Bamf... encounter over. :smallcool:

[tokek]

While this is mostly true, I think there are Capstones that come close or are difficult to assign a spell level to. The Oath of the Watcher ability, Mortal Bulwark, requires a bonus Action and grants for 1 minute:

Truesight with 120' Range
A Banishment spell effect that triggers on an successful Attack Roll, and does not require Concentration.

While this is not equivalent to a 9th level spell, it is certainly better than most 5th level spells, and probably around the power level of 7th or 8th level spell.

Ironically, the power works quite well with a Paladin that has acquired Eldritch Blast through a Feat..cause WotC is going to WotC.

I think the monk Empty Body ability would be a 7th or 8th level spell if it was a spell an honestly if it was a 9th level spell it would be far from the worst.

It also includes the ability to self-only cast a 9th level spell.

Some of the high level martial features are really strong. Others not so much.

[Blatant Beast]

And interesting interaction with Mortal Bulwark and Eldritch Blast lol. Bamf Bamf Bamf Bamf... encounter over. :smallcool:

It is cool, but loses style points for me, because Lancelot is better when he sheathes his sword, and studies with Morgan le Fay, than being the paragon of Knighthood. Of course this is more an issue with the Eldritch Blast Cantrip than Mortal Bulwark....there should be no Eldritch Blast cantrip, time has shown.


I think the monk Empty Body ability would be a 7th or 8th level spell if it was a spell an honestly if it was a 9th level spell it would be far from the worst.

It also includes the ability to self-only cast a 9th level spell.


Empty Body is a tough ability to peg, but I would agree with your power assessment. Gaseous Form is a poorly written spell, but from a systemic view, offers a very similar level of Damage Resistance to Empty Body and is only a 3rd level spell.

In a game that uses Mord Presents Poorly Conceived Monster Changes in the Multiverse, the protection offered by Gaseous Form is actually superior than the Damage Resistance from Empty Body because there is no magical damage, only Zuul, err Force Damage.

Absorb Elements is another example of a lower level spell granting limited Resistance to Damage.

Concentration-less Greater Invisibility coupled with Damage Resistance to everything but Force damage for one minute is very nice, but I am not sure if I would rank that higher than a 7th level spell, on it's own. That said, if we holistically consider the Monk Chassis, Empty Body and Diamond Body combine together to reach pretty close to a Foresight spell level of power.

Single Target Astral Projection sorta defeats the purpose of "let's take the party on a planar adventure" which, is what I think, the Astral Projection spell intends to do.

Now, that feature of Empty Body is useful if the the party is trying to bring Earth, Wind, and Fire on a tour of the Outer Planes, as then the Monk can take their own magical mystery trip, and an NPC/Sidekick/PC in an over 8 player sized group, can take the spot from the normal spell.

[tokek]

It is cool, but loses style points for me, because Lancelot is better when he sheathes his sword, and studies with Morgan le Fay, than being the paragon of Knighthood. Of course this is more an issue with the Eldritch Blast Cantrip than Mortal Bulwark....there should be no Eldritch Blast cantrip, time has shown.



Empty Body is a tough ability to peg, but I would agree with your power assessment. Gaseous Form is a poorly written spell, but from a systemic view, offers a very similar level of Damage Resistance to Empty Body and is only a 3rd level spell.

In a game that uses Mord Presents Poorly Conceived Monster Changes in the Multiverse, the protection offered by Gaseous Form is actually superior than the Damage Resistance from Empty Body because there is no magical damage, only Zuul, err Force Damage.

Absorb Elements is another example of a lower level spell granting limited Resistance to Damage.

Concentration-less Greater Invisibility coupled with Damage Resistance to everything but Force damage for one minute is very nice, but I am not sure if I would rank that higher than a 7th level spell, on it's own. That said, if we holistically consider the Monk Chassis, Empty Body and Diamond Body combine together to reach pretty close to a Foresight spell level of power.

Single Target Astral Projection sorta defeats the purpose of "let's take the party on a planar adventure" which, is what I think, the Astral Projection spell intends to do.

Now, that feature of Empty Body is useful if the the party is trying to bring Earth, Wind, and Fire on a tour of the Outer Planes, as then the Monk can take their own magical mystery trip, and an NPC/Sidekick/PC in an over 8 player sized group, can take the spot from the normal spell.

Gaseous form is a weird one to choose as comparison - it cripples the affected creature which is why its just a very niche spell. Empty body on the other hand does not cripple the monk at all - on the contrary it grants advantage on attacks against many opponents.

I have seen it in action and its pretty amazing. In the context of this discussion if I offered a monk player the option to take Draconic Transformation instead of Empty Body I think it would be a very poor choice for the monk to take it mechanically. Thematically they might want it but mechanically Empty Body far superior.

[Psyren]

I do not believe anyone is asking WotC, to make support for all archetypes.
What I am asking, is the Devs put sufficient thought and support for the classes and concepts they release in the PHB, so that it does not take 10 years for a concept to be completed, or for some people to be considered playable.

I’m not expecting the Devs to support the idea of a Lobster/Aquatic Creature Sorcerer, as that might be viewed as a bit niche.

A Dragon Sorcerer, however, fits into the rather large Niche of 'Dragon Related', in a game named Dungeons and Dragons....seems important enough for a Dev to give some deep consideration.

The Dragon Ascendant is almost good as is, it just needs a bit more baking as Yakk demonstrated.

But that's just it; "Dragon Monk" isn't a concept that needs to be in the PHB, and indeed it wasn't. It showed up, fittingly, in the dragon book, and we've been getting one of those consistently going all the way back to 2e. It appears to be a safe bet from a release standpoint.


It's not whether the capstone is fine as is.

It's about creating a level of power at certain levels, and only allowing certain classes to access it.

Non-spellcasters don't get spells, obviously. But they also don't get resource-features that have the power of a spell of similar level.

Less choices, less resources, and less power. All the way around. It's not obvious to me that it has to be this way if you choose not to play a spellcaster, and I wonder if other games have a more equitable design.

I can definitely think of games where some high-level martials gained access to individual high-level spells, or powers that otherwise mimicked those spells (or vice-versa) - D&D among them. I think this is a fine concept for a subclass or several.

[Blatant Beast]

Gaseous form is a weird one to choose as comparison - it cripples the affected creature which is why its just a very niche spell.

I agree, the spell is trash due to the limitations. One could argue that being in gaseous form and the squeezing one could do in that state might increase one’s chance to hide, but primarily I brought up Gaseous Form and Absorb Elements as each spell demonstrates that Damage Reduction effects, themselves, are available for low level spell slots.


A Damage Reduction effect, is appropriate for 1st level spell.
A Damage Reduction effect with other goodies attached, or covering a bunch of damage types is probably appropriate for a 3rd level spell,
A Damage Reduction effect with very good ancillary effects might be a 5th to 6th level spell.


This is a rough rule of thumb, but I think it tracks generally with the spells that have been released over the years.

[JNAProductions]

Stoneskin is a 4th level spell, with concentration required and 100 GP material component.

Empty Body is light years better than it.

[Blatant Beast]

Stoneskin is a 4th level spell, with concentration required and 100 GP material component.

Empty Body is light years better than it.

Exactly. Greater Invisibility is also a 4th level spell, (and Stoneskin was, presumably, intentionally weakened from being a S-Tier spell in prior editions to being a subpar option in 5e).

Thus when you look at an ability like Empty Body that Combines a 4th level effect, (Greater Invisibilty), with something that could be a 3rd level spell, (a bunch of damage resistance), you can infer that when creating a qualitative scale, that a spell version similar to Empty Body should require higher than a 4th level spell slot.

The Invulnerability spell is a 9th level slot.
Fizban's Platinum Shield is a 6th level slot.

Factoring in these data points, my conclusion would be an Empty Body like spell should be at least 6th level, and I lean more towards such a spell being 7th level, and requiring Concentration.

Spells that replicate core features of another class should be less effective than the feature they emulate, for balance, in my opinion.

Also keep in mind, this is a qualitative assessment, subjectivity is a factor.

[tokek]

Exactly. Greater Invisibility is also a 4th level spell, (and Stoneskin was, presumably, intentionally weakened from being a S-Tier spell in prior editions to being a subpar option in 5e).

Thus when you look at an ability like Empty Body that Combines a 4th level effect, (Greater Invisibilty), with something that could be a 3rd level spell, (a bunch of damage resistance), you can infer that when creating a qualitative scale, that a spell version similar to Empty Body should require higher than a 4th level spell slot.

The Invulnerability spell is a 9th level slot.
Fizban's Platinum Shield is a 6th level slot.

Factoring in these data points, my conclusion would be an Empty Body like spell should be at least 6th level, and I lean more towards such a spell being 7th level, and requiring Concentration.

Spells that replicate core features of another class should be less effective than the feature they emulate, for balance, in my opinion.

Also keep in mind, this is a qualitative assessment, subjectivity is a factor.

Stoneskin is a 4th level concentration spell that gives resistance to non magical B/P/S. Fizban's Platinum Shield is a 6th level spell that gives protection against 5 out of 13 damage types. So on that scale a spell that gives resistance to 12 out of 13 would be significantly higher level than 6th.

Also its a non-concentration Greater Invisibility

All of which is still non-concentration. Its immune to dispel magic. Its nearly impossible to take down. You can even use a spell along with it, a concentration spell, to buff yourself further, as you certainly should have magic items by this level.

A monk can use this 4 times per short rest if they like - so realistically there is no reason they do not use this in any combat situation.

You very severely under-rate it.

My wizard would 100% swap out her 8th level spell slot for what a monk gets with this - there is no 8th level spell that would overall perform as well as this for that character.

[Slipjig]

Of course this is more an issue with the Eldritch Blast Cantrip than Mortal Bulwark....there should be no Eldritch Blast cantrip, time has shown.

Eldritch Blast is a perfectly fine spell when it's used in it's intended design space: as a Warlock (and ONLY a Warlock's) default attack action. A slightly-better-than-other-casters spammable attack for people who want to play a simple, blasty magical character.

The problem isn't Eldritch Blast, the problem is that there are too many ways for non-Warlocks to easily access it.

Ok, if I was designing it from scratch, I would also change the "multiple bolts at higher levels" bit to key off Warlock levels only.

[Blatant Beast]

You very severely under-rate it.


I’m estimating a 7th level spell slot, you are saying it’s around an 8th level spell slot, seems like the evaluation is fairly close.

D&D spells are funny, a spell like Platinum Shield is often more practically useful than the Earthquake spell, but the power to destroy a city is clearly a big deal.

8th level spells include creating planes of existence through Demiplane, or conjuring castles, through Mighty Fortress.

Turning Invisible and being tough to kill, does not strike me as being in the same league, narratively, as creating new planes of existence.

That is my opinion, feel free to disagree.

Eldritch Blast is a perfectly fine spell when it's used in it's intended design space: as a Warlock (and ONLY a Warlock's) default attack action. .

EB shouldn’t be a Cantrip, and frankly ranged Warlock attacks are a tad bit overtunned.

[tokek]

I’m estimating a 7th level spell slot, you are saying it’s around an 8th level spell slot, seems like the evaluation is fairly close.



Being able to cast it once as an 8th level spell would be pretty fair. Being able to use it all day in every encounter is what the monk can do - which is bonkers powerful.

But my point is - after thinking about it - that its better than any 8th level spell my wizard knows and if it was a wizard spell it would be the main use of that 8th level slot on adventuring days. I'm not sure if its quite as good as Shapchange but that's only because Shapechange comes with Legendary Resistance (which it probably should not) and that's what tips the balance there.

[Waazraath]

Wrong edition alas. 3.5 had the Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries, very fun and flavourful subclass (or prestige class, since we had those in that time). And comparing the two makes me regret the Ascendent Dragon Monk even more. *insert rant about how 3.5 had all those nice things ready for inpiration or even for the taking but 5e designers flat out ignoring them*

[Witty Username]

Being able to cast it once as an 8th level spell would be pretty fair. Being able to use it all day in every encounter is what the monk can do - which is bonkers powerful.


Empty body is fun, but 4 ki is still alot, and monks do use that to fight with. This is part of why 4~5 ki for shapechange didn't bother me.

If your going for focused aims, stuns and flurries it can still drain pretty quickly.

The TLDR, use what works based on short resting for your table and use stunning strike responsibly.

[Psyren]

Wrong edition alas. 3.5 had the Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries, very fun and flavourful subclass (or prestige class, since we had those in that time). And comparing the two makes me regret the Ascendent Dragon Monk even more. *insert rant about how 3.5 had all those nice things ready for inpiration or even for the taking but 5e designers flat out ignoring them*

3.5 also had a far superior "dragon monk", the Diamond Dragon PrC from Dragon Magic. (Well, it wasn't explicitly a monk, but it encouraged you to fight unarmed with your magic scaling claws, so.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Ok, if I was designing it from scratch, I would also change the "multiple bolts at higher levels" bit to key off Warlock levels only.
I think that D&Done is gonna do that.

[Ogrillian]

I’ve played a lvl40 campaign with 20 lvls as a AD and Barbarian Path of the Beast. This makes a nice “were-dragon”