Fantasy art: A snake woman without breasts. Is it possible?

[Boci]

So I was talking with a friend about fantasy, sharing pictures. I showed them the Marilith from D&D 3.5's Fiendish Codex I, and she commented she said the chest look weird. Not quite understanding what she meant, I showed her some Pathfinder nagas, women's head on a snake body. She then clarified, and made me realize how there was no in between. What she wanted to see, was a woman's head, arms and torso, skin not scales, hair and all that, elf is fine too, which then gives way to a snake like body, but doesn't have breasts. It was a little weird realizing how this...just doesn't exist. She joked that fantasy artists seemed incapable of imagining a women's torso without breasts. The closest I found was a naga from magic the gathering:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-jlsQ6bMAAhPZ7?format=png&name=900x900

Close, certainly feels feminine, but the head and torso are scaly so doesn't quite count. I look and couldn't find one that fits her exact criteria. Does anyone know of one?

[OldTrees1]

I too failed to find a:
Snake body + non-mammalian skin torso. (Neither male nor female were found)

I suspect the presence of skin / lack of scales biases the artists to assume a mammalian torso.

Edit: Maybe sci fi has references?

[Satinavian]

Not surprised. You want the Torso explicitely neither snakelike nor mammalian in what is otherwise a Snake/Mammalian chimera. That is quite specific

[Just to Browse]

I think Nagas from MtG do this sometimes. Check out the art for Imoti, though she may have too many arms for your taste.

Edit: ach nevermind, snake head

[Rynjin]

The Pathfinder 2e Yuan-Ti looks like it fits the bill. (https://www.enworld.org/media/yuan-ti-jpeg.57777/full)

There's a spot on the chest I guess could be ARGUED are breasts, but looks just more like chest muscles bunching up where the arm is raised.

[Pauly]

So I was talking with a friend about fantasy, sharing pictures. I showed them the Marilith from D&D 3.5's Fiendish Codex I, and she commented she said the chest look weird. Not quite understanding what she meant, I showed her some Pathfinder nagas, women's head on a snake body. She then clarified, and made me realize how there was no in between. What she wanted to see, was a woman's head, arms and torso, skin not scales, hair and all that, elf is fine too, which then gives way to a snake like body, but doesn't have breasts. It was a little weird realizing how this...just doesn't exist. She joked that fantasy artists seemed incapable of imagining a women's torso without breasts. The closest I found was a naga from magic the gathering:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-jlsQ6bMAAhPZ7?format=png&name=900x900

Close, certainly feels feminine, but the head and torso are scaly so doesn't quite count. I look and couldn't find one that fits her exact criteria. Does anyone know of one?

I’m trying very hard to stay within the ToS for my answer so my answer has to be a little cryptic.

Consider what a defining feature of a female mammalian torso is, when contrasted against a male mammalian torso and that may help explain why what you are looking for is so hard to find.
Either you have a mammalian torso with skin and all that comes with it, or you have a reptilian torso with scales and all that comes with it.

[Anonymouswizard]

The Pathfinder 2e Yuan-Ti looks like it fits the bill. (https://www.enworld.org/media/yuan-ti-jpeg.57777/full)

There's a spot on the chest I guess could be ARGUED are breasts, but looks just more like chest muscles bunching up where the arm is raised.

I'd say she definitely has breasts, but she's pretty flat chested.


Consider what a defining feature of a female mammalian torso is, when contrasted against a male mammalian torso and that may help explain why what you are looking for is so hard to find.
Either you have a mammalian torso with skin and all that comes with it, or you have a reptilian torso with scales and all that comes with it.

I think we can assume that for our purposes 'no breasts'=flat chested. Plus at least stereotypically there's some differences in structure, particularly the broader hips, although humans are varied and I'm sure nothing is near universal.

[Boci]

The Pathfinder 2e Yuan-Ti looks like it fits the bill. (https://www.enworld.org/media/yuan-ti-jpeg.57777/full)

There's a spot on the chest I guess could be ARGUED are breasts, but looks just more like chest muscles bunching up where the arm is raised.

Yeah that seems to fit, well done.


Not surprised. You want the Torso explicitely neither snakelike nor mammalian


Consider what a defining feature of a female mammalian torso is

Not quite. If we want to get scientific, the defining trait of female mammals are mammalian glands. Hopefully we can both agree that dogs are mammals and yet the phrase "dog breasts" is weird and not something we say, and some mammals don't even have nipples.


I think we can assume that for our purposes 'no breasts'=flat chested.

Yeah that would likely qualify for her. Maybe I'd have better luck looking for a feminine male snake creature instead.

[MoiMagnus]

Not quite. If we want to get scientific, the defining trait of female mammals are mammalian glands. Hopefully we can both agree that dogs are mammals and yet the phrase "dog breasts" is weird and not something we say, and some mammals don't even have nipples.



Yeah, "mammalian" was not the appropriate word. At the core of the issue here is more than "mammalians", it's "mammalians that stands straight with a vertical torso", which basically restrict to humans/apes.

Said otherwise, if we want to find breast-less mammalian/snake hybrid, we should probably look at hybrids inspired by quadruped mammals, so with feet instead of hands and an horizontal torso.

[Unoriginal]

She joked that fantasy artists seemed incapable of imagining a women's torso without breasts.

Do you or your friend have examples of pictures showing "women's torso without breasts", please? Because I admit I'm not sure I understand the question.

You can't determine someone's gender from looking at their torso, for starter.

[Talakeal]

Vertigo from Primal Rage; the best designed female character in all of video games.

Although I imagine the legs and lack of a humanoid head probably ruin it in this particular case.

[Boci]

Yeah, "mammalian" was not the appropriate word. At the core of the issue here is more than "mammalians", it's "mammalians that stands straight with a vertical torso", which basically restrict to humans/apes.

Might need to add a non-marsupial or actually walks upright, otherwise kangaroos will disprove that, but yeah its not terrible difficult to cobble together a definition that fits, but that's still limited to our world, which fantasy does ignore sometimes, like the naga, which in some versions is a feminine head on a snake body. Given that such a physic is viable in a fantasy world, I don't see why you couldn't a human woman's arms and torso without adding breasts. Its not hard to justify, between fantasy creatures that emerge fully formed and thus don't need to consider feeding a baby, or multi-phase life cycles, they're born as a full sake and gradually with each skin molt also gain more human features, until their final form at around adult age. Aesthetically I also feel its cool to have variety, and a woman's torso without breasts is unusual and not what we expect, which is often an advantage for a fantasy creature, and if people dislike it, well there's plenty of alternative artworks they can use instead.


You can't determine someone's gender from looking at their torso, for starter.

Sure but then you can't determine someone's gender by looking at any part of their body and will just have to guess from contextual clues, which if often the case in fantasy art which gives little to no context for a lot of its pictures.

The post she originally commented on was this marilith:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/8/84/Marilith_-_Sam_Wood.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20070528225224

And she said it wasn't bad, but she'd prefer it if it didn't have breast, but was otherwise unchanged.


Vertigo from Primal Rage; the best designed female character in all of video games.

Although I imagine the legs and lack of a humanoid head probably ruin it in this particular case.

Yeah I've heard her character praised before she sounds fascinating, but not quite what we're looking for here.

[Unoriginal]

Sure but then you can't determine someone's gender by looking at any part of their body


Precisely.



and will just have to guess from contextual clues, which if often the case in fantasy art which gives little to no context for a lot of its pictures.

Which is why I'm asking if you or your friend have any pics exemplifying the "women's torso without breasts" look.

Since the question is if it's possible for a snake woman to have this look, it would be helpful to see an example of this look with a non-snake woman.

[Boci]

Since the question is if it's possible for a snake woman to have this look, it would be helpful to see an example of this look with a non-snake woman.

No, "is it possible" was me being glib. I know its possible. The actual, real question was "Do you have an example of this?". No one else seems to be struggling to comprehend the very thing, they've offered their own examples, or expressed why they feel this aesthetic is difficult/impossible to find, so I'm unsure why you seem to be struggling with it. I assume you can imagine a cow with wings, even though cows typically don't have wings, and a western fantasy style dragon without wings, even though they typically are depicted with wings. No problem right, you just imagine it? So, can you not also imagine a woman's torso with breasts, and then imagine that same torso, except the breast are gone, but is otherwise unchanged?

[Talakeal]

Are we talking about small breasts, or no breasts whatsoever?

I imagine you can find pictures of cis-women who have had double mastectomies or who never went through puberty for medical reasons if it is the latter. If its the former, that should be even easier to find.

[Boci]

Are we talking about small breasts, or no breasts whatsoever?

I imagine you can find pictures of cis-women who have had double mastectomies or who never went through puberty for medical reasons if it is the latter. If its the former, that should be even easier to find.

Exactly. That's an example of the aesthetic in the real world, I didn't want to mention since they're both the result quite serious medical conditions, and that's beyond the scope of this thread, which is just about fantasy art and exploring an alternative aesthetic for snake women / leaning into the alien-ness of a snake.

[Unoriginal]

No, "is it possible" was me being glib. I know its possible. The actual, real question was "Do you have an example of this?". No one else seems to be struggling to comprehend the very thing, they've offered their own examples, or expressed why they feel this aesthetic is difficult/impossible to find, so I'm unsure why you seem to be struggling with it. I assume you can imagine a cow with wings, even though cows typically don't have wings, and a western fantasy style dragon without wings, even though they typically are depicted with wings. No problem right, you just imagine it? So, can you not also imagine a woman's torso with breasts, and then imagine that same torso, except the breast are gone, but is otherwise unchanged?

So a picture somewhat like this one?:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/698884989403660350/1183475376261955694/Marilith_sam_wood_edit.png?ex=65887855&is=65760355&hm=9f0a7de1ae40540d4ca0e0e4e803fc51bc3d316dd7564fe 70674f37a95beeed2&

[Millstone85]

The Pathfinder 2e Yuan-Ti looks like it fits the bill. (https://www.enworld.org/media/yuan-ti-jpeg.57777/full)

There's a spot on the chest I guess could be ARGUED are breasts, but looks just more like chest muscles bunching up where the arm is raised.That picture is from D&D 5e, though.

[Boci]

So a picture somewhat like this one?:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/698884989403660350/1183475376261955694/Marilith_sam_wood_edit.png?ex=65887855&is=65760355&hm=9f0a7de1ae40540d4ca0e0e4e803fc51bc3d316dd7564fe 70674f37a95beeed2&

Yeah like that, she says she prefers this aesthetic.

[SimonMoon6]

I don't have any suggestions to add, but the concept of someone complaining about a snake woman having breasts reminds me of this video ("Brennan Lee Mulligan hates snilk"):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mx2MfFMe9E

[gbaji]

I guess my question is: Why are we assuming that the little half-snake half-human children wouldn't breast feed?

The more direct answer is that we're talking artwork here. And, snake for the lower half or not, fantasy art involving a character that's supposed to be identifiable as female (and human, at least partly) is most easily accomplished by including breasts. And hey. Let's not forget the target audience...

[GeoffWatson]

There's some old Naga artwork for D&D where the snake part goes all the way to the neck, with just a human head (no arms). They didn't have human-style breasts.

[Boci]

I guess my question is: Why are we assuming that the little half-snake half-human children wouldn't breast feed?

No one is? I mean I mentioned marilith maybe not, since they're demons who typically do not have young, but no, if a race has breasts, yes its fair to assume they are used to feed their young. But sometimes they don't, like nagas, so clearly they don't need breasts. Adding arms to a D&D/Pathfinder naga won't make its young less survivable.


fantasy art involving a character that's supposed to be identifiable as female (and human, at least partly) is most easily accomplished by including breasts.

I don't think I agree. Plenty of fantasy art will feature a character most will identify as female yet she won't have visible breasts due to her clothing, the angle of the picture or other details that obscure it. More times than not you can reliable tell from a human man and woman apart from a character's face.

[Talakeal]

No one is? I mean I mentioned marilith maybe not, since they're demons who typically do not have young, but no, if a race has breasts, yes its fair to assume they are used to feed their young. But sometimes they don't, like nagas, so clearly they don't need breasts. Adding arms to a D&D/Pathfinder naga won't make its young less survivable.

Vestigial organs are a very real thing in nature.

And in a fantasy / sci-fi setting, you will have many creatures that are created in the image of humans through magic / technology despite not actually having human biological processes.

[Lord Torath]

If the creature is human (or elven, dwarven - even feline) above the waist, mammary glands (aka breasts) are a part of that. If you only want them human from, say, the arms and shoulders up, and they're snake/reptile below, then yeah, probably ought to not have breasts.

[Boci]

Vestigial organs are a very real thing in nature.

Not terribly relevant to my comment about demons now is that?


If the creature is human (or elven, dwarven - even feline) above the waist, mammary glands (aka breasts) are a part of that.

Only if the writer / author decides so. There's literally nothing stopping someone from describing or depicting a woman's torso only without breasts.

[Talakeal]

Not terribly relevant to my comment about demons now is that?

Indeed it is not. It is a good thing that I wasn't talking about demons when I said it, but rather:


...but no, if a race has breasts, yes its fair to assume they are used to feed their young. But sometimes they don't, like nagas, so clearly they don't need breasts....

[Lord Torath]

Only if the writer / author decides so. There's literally nothing stopping someone from describing or depicting a woman's torso only without breasts.Okay, let's try this again:

If a creature is going to be a normal human above the waist, that means mammary glands. A female version will have breasts unless it's immature or has had a mastectomy. Male versions will have non-functional breasts.

It's true that there is nothing stopping an author from creating non-normal human-animal hybrid in the form of the traditional centaur/satyr/mermaid. In fact, male and female driders were initially indistinguishable from each other (See the New Monsters section of module Q1 - Queen of the Demonweb Pits). Some artist (probably) or writer later decided they wanted a 'sexy' female drider, and off things went from there.

But again, unless an artist/author has a specific reason for wanting a non-normal human(oid) as part of the hybrid, they're going to default to normal human(oid) parts for the humanoid part of the hybrid, and normal 'critter' parts for the 'critter' part of the hybrid.

[Boci]

Okay, let's try this again:

If a creature is going to be a normal human above the waist,

Mariliths, the example I have repeated referenced, have 6 arms, which is not normal for a human. So might want to try again again.


Indeed it is not. It is a good thing that I wasn't talking about demons when I said it, but rather:

I was talking about nagas who don't have breasts, so vestigal breasts would still be irrelevant to what I said. Also if we want to get properly scientific, vestigial stuff is a thing, but it tends to be, well vestigial, and reflect that in a look. So whilst vestigial nipples could certainly be a thing, shapely vestigial breasts are not going to be fooling anyone.

[Lord Torath]

I would suggest that the Type V demon (Marilith) is heavily based (originally) on the Hindu goddess/demoness Kali. I have no evidence to cite to back up this claim (although others might), but that's my gut feel.

[Boci]

I would suggest that the Type V demon (Marilith) is heavily based (originally) on the Hindu goddess/demoness Kali. I have no evidence to cite to back up this claim (although others might), but that's my gut feel.

Entirely possibly, but not terrible relevant here. If you can make a demon inspired by Kali, but giver her the lower body of a snake instead of legs, you can certainly make a demon inspired by her that isn't depicted with breasts, seems like that would be the smaller change. Either way we're not dealing with a normal human here, so what they do and don't have isn't relevant.

[Millstone85]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ds4C8P_XoAgZvM7?format=jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtMimjvWoAEANhE?format=jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ds4C9d1W0AABdbO?format=jpg
I am only linking the pictures because the artist draws much more graphic stuff.

[Talakeal]

I was talking about nagas who don't have breasts, so vestigal breasts would still be irrelevant to what I said.

I can only respond to what you wrote, not what you meant.



Also if we want to get properly scientific, vestigial stuff is a thing, but it tends to be, well vestigial, and reflect that in a look. So whilst vestigial nipples could certainly be a thing, shapely vestigial breasts are not going to be fooling anyone.

I would posit that you could still have evolutionary pressure to keep non-functional breasts. For example, in our modern society, we have baby formula, so there is not a strong survival pressure for lactation, to the point where ~10% of women have lost the ability to breastfeed. But breasts are still attractive to most people. So in the future I could easilly see breasts on human women serving much the same function as a peacock's plumage.

[Boci]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ds4C8P_XoAgZvM7?format=jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtMimjvWoAEANhE?format=jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ds4C9d1W0AABdbO?format=jpg
I am only linking the pictures because the artist draws much more graphic stuff.

These are great, thanks for sharing!


I can only respond to what you wrote, not what you meant.

I wrote, multiple times, that I was talking about nagas that don't have breasts as they appear in mythology and notable RPG book like D&D 5e and PF. So, you didn't respond I meant or what I wrote.


so there is not a strong survival pressure for lactation, to the point where ~10% of women have lost the ability to breastfeed

Sperm count is also down globally, so one could also argue its less "no strong survival pressure" and more just "civilisation has messed up quite badly somewhere along the way".

[OldTrees1]

Entirely possibly, but not terrible relevant here. If you can make a demon inspired by Kali, but giver her the lower body of a snake instead of legs, you can certainly make a demon inspired by her that isn't depicted with breasts, seems like that would be the smaller change. Either way we're not dealing with a normal human here, so what they do and don't have isn't relevant.

I think a miscommunication is happening.

1) We can observe why the deviation from the norm is like likely to be observed than the normal. When drawing a skin torso, an artist might default to using a human torso as a basis. So torsos that deviate from that will be like likely to be observed unless the deviation was a conscious choice by the artist.
2) We can know that this defaulting is not mandatory. We have 1 example in this thread already.
These are mutually compatible. Stating #1 is not an attempt to contradict #2.

Is it possible to have a snake woman with a skin torso that does not have breasts? Yes.
Is there a reason why such art is so hard to find (2 close misses and 1 edited success in this thread)? Yes.

Finding this art is hard for obvious reasons. That does not make it impossible for the art to exist, and each constructive poster has taken time to try (success not guarenteed) to find some.

Edit: I spent some more time searching with no luck. I do want to see some more art that meets these specifications. I think it is a neat idea for naga.

@Millstone85
That is some nice art! I think the torso is scaly. Thank you for posting it!

[Witty Username]

So, we are looking for a Naga, that we would recognize as feminine without a particular trait?

First, what context clues would we be looking for?

Sounds like face and hair are a priority, would bust suggesting pattern be out?

Hair and clothing would be my initial thoughts, based on the description.

[sandmote]

My understanding is that the visual shorthand to imply a part-snake character is female is going to be (a) narrow waist, (b) long hair, (c) thin jawline, or (d) breasts, particularly if you want to skip clothes on the lower (snakelike) torso. If you're missing that its probably done intentionally, like the ones Millstone85 found or the one below, where the snake woman doesn't have arms either.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJcQJztXkAAIRSE?format=jpg&name=900x900Edit: I logged out for a second and could still see it, so hopefully everyone else can too.



For example, in our modern society, we have baby formula, so there is not a strong survival pressure for lactation, to the point where ~10% of women have lost the ability to breastfeed. More than 10% of women had to rely on a wet nurse before baby formula was invented on account of a failure to produce, so I'd I very appreciate a citation for claiming the percent of women who can't produce enough milk to breastfeed has nearly doubled since 1865. Yes, I know baby formula wasn't available at scale the year it was introduced, but I'm trying to bias the test away from the null hypothesis.

[Talakeal]

More than 10% of women had to rely on a wet nurse before baby formula was invented on account of a failure to produce, so I'd I very appreciate a citation for claiming the percent of women who can't produce enough milk to breastfeed has nearly doubled since 1865. Yes, I know baby formula wasn't available at scale the year it was introduced, but I'm trying to bias the test away from the null hypothesis.

Not sure where you are getting the "more than doubled since 1865". That's not a claim I made.

You are correct that wet-nurses were available for many people before formula. My point is that there is not a strong survival pressure in human society for functioning breasts, but there is still a selection pressure for aesthetically pleasing breasts. It was my understanding that the rate of inability to produce milk was increasing over time, but I don't have a hard source for it.

[sandmote]

Not sure where you are getting the "more than doubled since 1865". That's not a claim I made.
A) I said "nearly doubled."
B) You said a "~10% of women have lost the ability."
C) I said it was above 10% to start with.

I didn't specify it was just above 10% (the measures I've seen said between 12% and 15%) but that is where I got the "nearly doubled."
Although this very much isn't important and I just found it a very strange detail.

[EggKookoo]

These are great, thanks for sharing!

Yeah, but why does she have wide, child-bearing hips?

[OldTrees1]

Yeah, but why does she have wide, child-bearing hips?

I suspect:
The snake tail (the reason it appears to have wide hips) is thick because it uses its massive muscles to slither.

It appears to have hips because it has a narrow waist. I do not know why it has a narrow waist. Maybe the narrow waist/small torso/head is reducing the mass the hips need to lift up to lift the head to vertical? I am also confused at the mouth diameter to waist diameter to tail(stomach) diameter ratios. How/why it got that way I don't know. However I expect it continues to persist due to tool usage (cut up food, produce lots of food, have lots of time) result in it not being an issue for the snake lady. I bet they get 1-2 hour long lunch breaks.

[Witty Username]

A) I said "nearly doubled."
B) You said a "~10% of women have lost the ability."
C) I said it was above 10% to start with.

I didn't specify it was just above 10% (the measures I've seen said between 12% and 15%) but that is where I got the "nearly doubled."
Although this very much isn't important and I just found it a very strange detail.

That about matches what I have found for current numbers.
[Diana Cassar-Uhl's]* number, based on a more recent study, is that an estimated 12 to 15 percent of women experience “disrupted lactation,”
*apparently a lactation consultant
Article is from a Editorial New Mom, The Cut is the website name, I could probably find better.

The article does stress the number of mothers that don't breastfeed is probably higher, but due to things like lack of parental leave as the largest factor.

This would match the idea it is less about numbers changing and more about viability of the issue at hand.

We have chunks of the population thinking the world is in crisis more or less since us monkeys started drawing on everything we saw, while their are definitely things to worry about, I suspect our time is alot more mundane than us people who have to live with it give it credit for.

Either way, we were talking about drawing hot snake women? Are Naga's cold blooded or warm blooded?

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, but why does she have wide, child-bearing hips?

Because Internet.

Also because people don't generally know all that much about snake anatomy. Almost all of a snake is body, not tail.

[LudicSavant]

Vertigo from Primal Rage; the best designed female character in all of video games.

Although I imagine the legs and lack of a humanoid head probably ruin it in this particular case.

I absolutely adored Vertigo when I was a kid playing Primal Rage on my SNES.

[Chronos]

They're not snakelike, but the Protoss, from Starcraft, have individuals who still manage to look female without having breasts. It's unknown from the game lore precisely how they reproduce or rear their young, beyond that some of them are described as mothers.

And my assumption for mermaids, at least, is that they're not actually mammalian at all. They prey on sailors, and sailors tend to be male, heterosexual, and lonely, so they've evolved to mimic the appearance of humanoid women in order to lure their prey close. Mermaid breasts are thus purely aesthetic, and don't produce milk or serve any other purpose.

[Trafalgar]

Okay, let's try this again:

If a creature is going to be a normal human above the waist, that means mammary glands. A female version will have breasts unless it's immature or has had a mastectomy. Male versions will have non-functional breasts.

It's true that there is nothing stopping an author from creating non-normal human-animal hybrid in the form of the traditional centaur/satyr/mermaid. In fact, male and female driders were initially indistinguishable from each other (See the New Monsters section of module Q1 - Queen of the Demonweb Pits). Some artist (probably) or writer later decided they wanted a 'sexy' female drider, and off things went from there.

But again, unless an artist/author has a specific reason for wanting a non-normal human(oid) as part of the hybrid, they're going to default to normal human(oid) parts for the humanoid part of the hybrid, and normal 'critter' parts for the 'critter' part of the hybrid.

Let's talk centaurs. A female centaurs, as typically portrayed, would have two sets of mammary glands. Female breasts on the human torso and an equine udder on the horse portion. Which would a baby centaur use for feeding? The sexy human bits or the less than sexy horse bits?

[Millstone85]

Let's talk centaurs. A female centaurs, as typically portrayed, would have two sets of mammary glands. Female breasts on the human torso and an equine udder on the horse portion. Which would a baby centaur use for feeding? The sexy human bits or the less than sexy horse bits?A baby centaur is not be immediately able to walk like a newborn horse but learns quicker than a human baby. The young centaur is initially breastfed in his mother's arms but soon prefers the source of milk that is closer to the ground.

[OldTrees1]

Let's talk centaurs. A female centaurs, as typically portrayed, would have two sets of mammary glands. Female breasts on the human torso and an equine udder on the horse portion. Which would a baby centaur use for feeding? The sexy human bits or the less than sexy horse bits?

I expect which mammary sets exist would depend on the generation because I expect only the lower ones would be used for feeding.
Right after "a wizard did it": Both sets
Long time later: Only the lower set lactates and the upper set became vestigial.

[sandmote]

I only just remembered to check Magic's artwork. There's a few cards where at least I can't discern any breasts, despite humanoid torsos and arms.
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=430807&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=470554&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=592771&type=card
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426911&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=547685&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=547678&type=card


We have chunks of the population thinking the world is in crisis more or less since us monkeys started drawing on everything we saw, while their are definitely things to worry about, I suspect our time is alot more mundane than us people who have to live with it give it credit for. Which is why I take particular notice when I see a worry I haven't seen before.


Are Naga's cold blooded or warm blooded? I assume this depends on the setting/world, but I somewhat assumed they'd be warm blooded, partially because my understanding is the mythological nagas live underground (or underwater) but still manage to be reasonably active. That's going to increase their energy requirements quite a bit though.


A baby centaur is not be immediately able to walk like a newborn horse but learns quicker than a human baby. The young centaur is initially breastfed in his mother's arms but soon prefers the source of milk that is closer to the ground.
I expect which mammary sets exist would depend on the generation because I expect only the lower ones would be used for feeding.
Right after "a wizard did it": Both sets
Long time later: Only the lower set lactates and the upper set became vestigial.
While the latter could be an interesting way to bring in legends about the Scythians and the mythological amazons as influences (mainly the stereotype of having one breast removed so it doesn't get in the way of using a bow), I think the former one makes a bit more sense? It would also allow for a smaller proportion of wet nurses, since a centaur would be able to nurse an infant in their arms and have a slightly older child drinking from the second set.

[Grim Portent]

Wouldn't it make more sense for the centaur to just be born more developed, and have a longer gestation period? A horse/human baby is not going to be easy to carry in the arms, it's an all round awkward shaped thing, the only practical method of reproduction in my opinion is if they are born like horses and can stand and run on their own shortly after being born. Size isn't a huge issue since we're dealing with a horse pelvis, so you could push a much larger and more developed head out the birth canal.

Horse pregnancies take somewhere around a year, and while there's no clear way to scale that up to deal with the relative complexity of a centaur, having a less altricial baby than a human does would probably take a few extra months, but centaurs have what I like to think of as the 'everything is a pain in the ass' problem because of the bodyplan, so being horse-pregnant for a few extra months and having an upright, mobile baby that can nurse from the horse-teats is probably easier overall than having a slightly shorter pregnancy and a floppy infant with six limbs that's basically impossible to cradle.

[Trafalgar]

Wouldn't it make more sense for the centaur to just be born more developed, and have a longer gestation period? A horse/human baby is not going to be easy to carry in the arms, it's an all round awkward shaped thing, the only practical method of reproduction in my opinion is if they are born like horses and can stand and run on their own shortly after being born. Size isn't a huge issue since we're dealing with a horse pelvis, so you could push a much larger and more developed head out the birth canal.

Horse pregnancies take somewhere around a year, and while there's no clear way to scale that up to deal with the relative complexity of a centaur, having a less altricial baby than a human does would probably take a few extra months, but centaurs have what I like to think of as the 'everything is a pain in the ass' problem because of the bodyplan, so being horse-pregnant for a few extra months and having an upright, mobile baby that can nurse from the horse-teats is probably easier overall than having a slightly shorter pregnancy and a floppy infant with six limbs that's basically impossible to cradle.

Well horses are born able to walk but hum babies need time to even develop strong enough neck muscles to support their head. What if the horse part could walk but the human part couldn't support itself? Would the human part just lie on the horse parts back? How flexible is the connection?

[Grim Portent]

Well horses are born able to walk but hum babies need time to even develop strong enough neck muscles to support their head. What if the horse part could walk but the human part couldn't support itself? Would the human part just lie on the horse parts back? How flexible is the connection?

Generally speaking a human cannot bend their spine backwards at a 90 degree angle to their hips. A centaur could be more flexible, it would certainly help them do stuff with their rather ungainly bodyplan, but flexibility has biological trade offs that might be disadvantageous in other ways. It'd be easiest imo for a centaur to be born with the human part about as physically developed as a human is at about 1-2 or so years old, able to stand upright and feed itself. Horses give birth to relatively large babies compared to humans, so the extra difficulties related to size wouldn't be a huge deal, though I imagine trying to get a 6 limbed baby through the birth canal would be awkward.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

It'd be easiest imo for a centaur to be born with the human part about as physically developed as a human is at about 1-2 or so years old, able to stand upright and feed itself. Horses give birth to relatively large babies compared to humans, so the extra difficulties related to size wouldn't be a huge deal, though I imagine trying to get a 6 limbed baby through the birth canal would be awkward.

Or the human part is born more horse-like, with more horse-like muscles and a more horse-like brain. This could give them a longer early childhood, more time needs to pass before they can talk and such. Some parts that are mostly ready yet not very functional in a newborn human, making them helpless but able to learn complex tasks pretty quickly after that phase, are not nearly ready at all in a newborn centaur, because the available proteins, energy and space were invested in being able to walk and stuff instead. That tradeoff might be worth it to keep the herd mobile without the mother having to carry a baby the size of a foal around in their small humanoid arms. Centaur culture might reflect this, for the first year of their life the young are treated more as pets than as human babies, only after that do they start telling/reading stories to their children and introducing them to games and puzzles built around intellectual development.

[Trafalgar]

Maybe centaurs are actually evil creatures who are born as horses with deformed heads. The centaurs then abduct a human child and use foul magic to replace the deformed head with the child's torso.

[Millstone85]

Maybe centaurs are actually evil creatures who are born as horses with deformed heads. The centaurs then abduct a human child and use foul magic to replace the deformed head with the child's torso....

So, er, I remember a story with a similar premise. A young woman fights a centaur and appears victorious until we find out that she only killed the human host of a headless horse-like parasite. She becomes its new victim. Yes, it was a hentai.

[Grim Portent]

Maybe centaurs are actually evil creatures who are born as horses with deformed heads. The centaurs then abduct a human child and use foul magic to replace the deformed head with the child's torso.

If you're going for them as a more mystical race sure, such a thing would fit a dark fantasy fey/demon take on centaurs well.

I tend to lean towards them being a race of barbarians with early-stone age tech. They're big, strong and fast, but their anatomy makes building a settled agrarian society hard, so they exist as nomads and slowly get pushed out as humans and the like create tools that negate the advantages of the centaurs and competition over land and resources swings in the favour of bipeds. The centaurs get the odd resurgance when people let their guard down or they form a cooperative arrangement with non-centaurs and get supplies they can't make for themselves, but they are inevitably doomed as a species if the world continues to change.

Centaurs are rough and violent, and love the luxuries that agrarian communities produce like alcohol and fine fabrics, and so naturally fall into a sort of nomadic raider lifestyle or form become a decentralised suzerain culture gathering tribute from settled communities in or near their roaming grounds.

It is rather heavily inspired by the Greek depiction of them as drunken lecherous savages.