(3.5) Post your Half-Orc fix

[Ozreth]

Back at 3.5 after a very long hiatus. I never fixed the Half-Orc back in the day and now have a mind to. I've looked through a lot of old post around the internet but am wondering what people are doing now in 2023. My main concern is the racial modifiers, what I'm thinking right now is:

+2 STR, -2 INT or CHA
+2 on intimidate checks

Thinking I need one or two more things in there, something with flavor due to being a half orc whether its a feat, skill proficiencies or something else.

[Darg]

What about half-orc needs fixing? It's a really popular race because of its racial bonus to strength already. Does it really need to be better? Or do you mean to nerf it in some way?

[Biggus]

I don't change the ability modifiers, but I do give it some other things:

Counts as both human and orc for the purposes of qualifying for feats, prestige classes etc (half-elf likewise counts as both human and elf)

Treats the orc double axe as a martial weapon.

The fixes you suggest sound reasonable too.


What about half-orc needs fixing? It's a really popular race because of its racial bonus to strength already. Does it really need to be better? Or do you mean to nerf it in some way?

Are you kidding? Half-orc is the worst of the core races after half-elf, the Str bonus is all it has going for it. It's rarely used except in core-only game in my experience, and not that often even then.

[Morphic tide]

What about half-orc needs fixing? It's a really popular race because of its racial bonus to strength already. Does it really need to be better? Or do you mean to nerf it in some way?
People play Half-Orc for the dearth of other Strength races, not because it's actively good. And if you're willing to accept the lopsided penalty there's not much reason not to go full Orc for +4 Strength, unless you really want Spot/Listen or are relying on that Wisdom for prepared Divine casting or Manifesting.

[Emberlily]

outside of like, mechanical combat power, most of the other phb races offer either a bunch of flavourful niche bonuses or else a couple customizable ones. regardless of how powerful those are, they can often just be fun. and half-orc has none of that

[Maat Mons]

While you’re fixing half-orc, you may as well fix orc.

I’d say either give orc +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, like water orc gets, or +4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha. I’d lean towards the latter, since a Wis penalty doesn’t seem fitting for a race that, thematically, should probably give a Survival Bonus. Then again, Handle Animal, Intimidate, and Knowledge (nature) also seem like things orcs would be good at, and those use Cha and Int. Though if anyone should be allowed to use Str for Intimidate, it should be orcs. Maybe that could be a racial ability.

You could also consider ripping ideas off from Pathfinder orcs (https://www.aonprd.com/RacesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Orc) and Pathfinder half-orcs (https://www.aonprd.com/RacesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Half-Orc).

[Ozreth]

I don't change the ability modifiers, but I do give it some other things:

Counts as both human and orc for the purposes of qualifying for feats, prestige classes etc (half-elf likewise counts as both human and elf)

Treats the orc double axe as a martial weapon.

The fixes you suggest sound reasonable too.



This sounds good, I'm guessing you give the 1 extra feat at first level as well then too? What about skill points?

What does your half-elf look like?

[Prime32]

Back at 3.5 after a very long hiatus. I never fixed the Half-Orc back in the day and now have a mind to. I've looked through a lot of old post around the internet but am wondering what people are doing now in 2023. My main concern is the racial modifiers, what I'm thinking right now is:

+2 STR, -2 INT or CHA
+2 on intimidate checks

Thinking I need one or two more things in there, something with flavor due to being a half orc whether its a feat, skill proficiencies or something else.

Consider things like

A natural weapon (slam, bite, etc.)
+1 natural armor bonus
Immunity to disease
Acid resistance 5
Light fortification due to your hybrid nature giving you weirdly-placed organs
Scent
Can use Str in place of Cha on Charisma-based skill checks (all of them, not just Intimidate).
Iron Will as a bonus feat (not possessed by full-blooded orcs)
Use Str in place of the normal ability score for determining the DCs of your damage-dealing spells, and/or add your Str modifier as a bonus to damage
Born with instinctive knowledge of how to fight: can use combat maneuvers without provoking AoOs, and/or ignore ability score prereqs for fighter feats

[Morphic tide]

Hmm... To compare the Half-Elf to the Elf for a baseline:

+2 on the ability penalty, -2 on the ability bonus
Missing weapon proficiencies, specified as being in feat form
-1 on the bonus to Listen, Search, and Spot
Gain +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information
Favored Class: Any instead of only Wizard.

The existing Half-Orc only does the first, still retaining a +2 Strength and two -2s. The Orc Paragon has Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Spot, Survival, and Swim as class skills, while the Eye of Gruumsh also brings Ride into the "orcish" skill list. Of these, Intimidate, Spot, and Survival would be the most obvious three to mirror the Elf's set of three, while Ride and Handle Animal could be the Half-Orc's new skills, if trying for exactly one-to-one to the Half Elf.

One could alternative apply a +1 Natural Armor bonus to the base Orc to carry over on the Half-Orc, instead of a +2 Con, which opens up a couple of options and ties into one of the Eye of Gruumsh's features. Similarly, a +1 to attack vs. Elves and Dwarves would in the former case presage the +2 damage bonus the Orc Paragon gives and in the latter case mirror the Dwarf bonus vs. Orcs.

[Kish]

I suspect this is considerably more sweeping than will be helpful to you, but I've actually used what you're asking for in games, so, here's my half-orc fix:

Orcs are not interfertile with humans. Orcs replace half-orcs as a standard player race. Their stats are as follows:

+2 Strength, -2 Intelligence
Darkvision 60 feet
Favored class: Warblade
Treats a dire axe as a martial weapon; can also wield a dire axe in one hand (as though it were medium)
Medium
Speed 30 feet
Automatic languages: Orc and Common. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.

Dire axe statistics:

Large exotic weapon (two-handed for dwarves, humans, or elves; unusable by halflings or gnomes)
Cost: 60 GP
Damage: 1d12
Critical: 19-20/x3
Weight: 15 lbs
Range: -
Type: Slashing
A dire axe counts as an associated weapon for the Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, and White Raven martial adept disciplines.

(I'd do something similar with half-elves--I think the "humans can breed with everything" thing is extremely stupid--except elves are already a default PC race and I don't want to be down one, and my players would be less than thrilled about losing half-elves. But if I had wanted to keep half-orcs playable these would still be the stats I'd use for them. Yes, I do also still use the 3.0ed weapon size rules.)

[Luccan]

I do the same with the attributes. I similarly allow Orcs to drop one penalty. Honestly, I think the designers just didn't have a good enough idea of what makes Half-Elves and Half-Orcs not just their non-human parent but Less. Especially Half-Orcs, because Orcs are barely anything to begin with. I think my solution to both being kind of lame will be to at least include a Human ability as well. So choose between either a bonus feat or bonus skill points. That's a lot more like "half-human, half-x" than just getting lesser versions of their x-parent. Bonus to Intimidate checks also seems to fit the Half-Orc archetype (and maybe boost it to a full +4 to Intimidate checks for Orcs, to tie them together a little better).

I have debated giving Half-Orcs a +2 bonus to Sense Motive checks before as well, on the assumption that most Half-Orcs are mistreated regardless of the community they are raised in and it makes sense they'd have a good sense of when things are about to go bad, even if they aren't super clever. Plus it contrasts well with the Half-Elf, who is generally seen as genial and easy to talk to, while the Half-Orc is gruff but knows how to read threats.

[Duke of Urrel]

I like half-orcs basically as they are. However, I apply a general "fix" to racial Charisma penalties.

If a particular race imposes a penalty on your Charisma score, I do not count this penalty when you use Charisma to influence creatures of your own species. Thus, if you're a half-orc and you try to influence other orcs or half-orcs, your Charisma score effectively goes up by two. The same thing happens if you're a dwarf and you try to influence other dwarves.

[Troacctid]

I say drop both penalties. Just +2 Strength, no other ability modifiers, no other changes needed. Bam, done.

[Morphic tide]

I say drop both penalties. Just +2 Strength, no other ability modifiers, no other changes needed. Bam, done.
"+2 Strength, 60 ft. Darkvision, Orc subtype" would be the single blandest race in the entire system. Humans' bonus feat can do interesting things, and the skill point is a versatile benefit. This is 3.5, fiddly conditional bonuses and seemingly-random Racial skill modifiers are just how things are here.

[ShurikVch]

Note: there are two official variants of Half-Orc with just one penalty:

Desert Half-Orc (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs): +2 Con -2 Int, LLV instead Darkvision, Run bonus feat, and Heat Endurance

Warcraft the Roleplaying Game Half-Orc: +2 Con -2 Wis, LLV instead Darkvision, +1 on saves vs fear, and +2 on Intimidate and Sense Motive checks (and both of those skills are "always class skills")

(Oddly: both variants grant Con bonus - instead Str -, and LLV instead Darkvision)

[Troacctid]

"+2 Strength, 60 ft. Darkvision, Orc subtype" would be the single blandest race in the entire system. Humans' bonus feat can do interesting things, and the skill point is a versatile benefit. This is 3.5, fiddly conditional bonuses and seemingly-random Racial skill modifiers are just how things are here.
It's not any blander than the status quo. It's just more powerful.
Half-elf is still blander.
Doing away with the stereotype that half-orcs are gruff and stupid opens up more character concepts instead of pigeonholing them into the dumb muscle trope.
The spicy part of half-orc in this edition has always been the exclusive feats, prestige classes, substitution levels, and other forms of splat support that it's gotten over the years due to being a core class. All of that is still there.

[Darg]

Are you kidding? Half-orc is the worst of the core races after half-elf, the Str bonus is all it has going for it. It's rarely used except in core-only game in my experience, and not that often even then.

Why would I be kidding? You get +2 strength, dark vision 60 ft, and are medium with 30 base speed. If you can't see how that can be incredibly valuable you aren't being creative enough.


People play Half-Orc for the dearth of other Strength races, not because it's actively good. And if you're willing to accept the lopsided penalty there's not much reason not to go full Orc for +4 Strength, unless you really want Spot/Listen or are relying on that Wisdom for prepared Divine casting or Manifesting.

You literally just pointed out the advantage half-orcs have as if it were a penalty. The dearth of other strength races is part of why half-orc is so actively good. Heck, bonuses to strength near always are accompanied with lopsided penalties. Straight orc has 3 things going against it: an extra -2, light sensitivity, and is a monster race which may not always be available and could be more harshly stigmatized in setting.

[Morphic tide]

It's not any blander than the status quo. It's just more powerful.
It's still weaker where it matters, in the utility space, where all those weird frills on the Gnome shine.


Half-elf is still blander.

How is something with two different grades of bonus across five skills, no perfect Elf overlap among it, blander than just a single +1 modifier and the nigh-omnipresent Darkvision?


Doing away with the stereotype that half-orcs are gruff and stupid opens up more character concepts instead of pigeonholing them into the dumb muscle trope.
Constitution and Dexterity still distinguish kind of muscle, and the absence of Wisdom penalty leaves Cleric, Ardent, or Psychic Warrior wide open where the Orc's -2 is a meaningful problem for spell/power levels.


The spicy part of half-orc in this edition has always been the exclusive feats, prestige classes, substitution levels, and other forms of splat support that it's gotten over the years due to being a core class. All of that is still there.
And the point of this thread is having a "selling point" on the race itself.

[Darg]

It's still weaker where it matters, in the utility space, where all those weird frills on the Gnome shine.

And gnomes pay for it significantly. -4 strength compared to half-orc, small sized, 20 base speed, and low-light vision instead of dark.


How is something with two different grades of bonus across five skills, no perfect Elf overlap among it, blander than just a single +1 modifier and the nigh-omnipresent Darkvision?

Because a strength bonus IS a skill modifier. +1 to 3 skills in core. Not to mention it improves other strength based checks, not just AB and damage.


And the point of this thread is having a "selling point" on the race itself.

It does have a selling point, you just dismiss it out of hand.

[Morphic tide]

And gnomes pay for it significantly. -4 strength compared to half-orc, small sized, 20 base speed, and low-light vision instead of dark.
They're Favored Class Bard with an Illusion boost. Swinging in melee isn't really their job. The point of bringing them up is that they have a save DC boost to a school of magic, a saving throw boost against the same, a Craft (Alchemy) bonus, +1 AC for size and +4 Dodge AC against Giants, and more than a bit of mind-games off those SLAs. It is quite vastly more likely for that wide net to draw the spotlight to "Gnome" than +2 Strength is to draw it to "Half-Orc".


Because a strength bonus IS a skill modifier. +1 to 3 skills in core. Not to mention it improves other strength based checks, not just AB and damage.
+1 to three skills based on a scalar they share, which are all for difficult movement that is very easily outmoded by a long list of methods, versus +1 to three and +2 to another two, which apply to at least three different areas and are declared independently, and the +2s are not on the pure Elf. In terms of "blandness", being solely on the abilities column is a severe problem, because it means it's going to be lost in the general game math even if it's more useful. The phrase "boring, but practical" comes to mind, which is the entire point of Humans in 3.5. And even then, the "boring practicality" is a massive lightener of build constraints to let you get away with a variety of weird things, or reach something interesting faster.


It does have a selling point, you just dismiss it out of hand.
I'm dismissing "+2 ability modifier" because the vast majority of races have that, Half-Orc is only slightly distinct for having it in Strength that isn't necessarily the top priority. Because there are a lot of crippling Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves to be made that a +2 in can be far more important to. Especially if you're rolling or using arrays so you can't save points by making 15-18 Strength cheaper.

[Darg]

They're Favored Class Bard with an Illusion boost. Swinging in melee isn't really their job. The point of bringing them up is that they have a save DC boost to a school of magic, a saving throw boost against the same, a Craft (Alchemy) bonus, +1 AC for size and +4 Dodge AC against Giants, and more than a bit of mind-games off those SLAs. It is quite vastly more likely for that wide net to draw the spotlight to "Gnome" than +2 Strength is to draw it to "Half-Orc".

So you think that a race's favored class is determinant of the class they should be? In the same way you are comparing a gnome bard with a half-orc, it's only fair to compare a martial orc to a martial gnome. In this case you really can't see the benefit being an orc has over being a gnome?


+1 to three skills based on a scalar they share, which are all for difficult movement that is very easily outmoded by a long list of methods, versus +1 to three and +2 to another two, which apply to at least three different areas and are declared independently, and the +2s are not on the pure Elf. In terms of "blandness", being solely on the abilities column is a severe problem, because it means it's going to be lost in the general game math even if it's more useful. The phrase "boring, but practical" comes to mind, which is the entire point of Humans in 3.5. And even then, the "boring practicality" is a massive lightener of build constraints to let you get away with a variety of weird things, or reach something interesting faster.

What you find bland, I find incredibly interesting and more complex than you give it credit for. Overall it just appears as though you think strength itself isn't that strong of a stat. You'd be wrong, but I don't think I'd be the best person to convince you otherwise. Just know that what you are describing is wholly subjective.

You say that the strength skills are easily bypassed, but what about an (half-)elf's sleep immunity? Most forms of magical sleep and other hostile enchantments are going to be negated by a level 1 spell just as those strength skills can easily be negated. A +1 bonus to listen, search, and spot checks is far, far weaker than a straight up +2 to wisdom. The +2 bonus to gather information is pretty superfluous considering how easy those checks actually are. I can't deny that the +2 to diplomacy is pretty nice, but its strength depends solely on your DM. Even against a pure elf, using an armor based class can negate the value of that +2 dex, having -2 con is equal to being more vulnerable to fort saves, lesser concentration checks, and suffering 1*level worth of damage at the start of every battle. Ok, sure, elves get low light vision and weapon proficiencies, but if you're a fighter your extra proficiencies mean nothing and the half-orc's darkvision is superior to low light vision.

All you're doing is comparing the "benefits" of one race through a singular biased lens to support your claim that half-orc is just bad. Doing it the other way should make it pretty obvious that doing that works both ways.


I'm dismissing "+2 ability modifier" because the vast majority of races have that, Half-Orc is only slightly distinct for having it in Strength that isn't necessarily the top priority. Because there are a lot of crippling Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves to be made that a +2 in can be far more important to. Especially if you're rolling or using arrays so you can't save points by making 15-18 Strength cheaper.

I don't get what you mean. +2 strength is as valuable rolling or using arrays as it is in point buy. Just as fortitude, reflex, or will saves can be valuable (which a half-orc receives 0 penalties for by the way), not having a -4 on grapple checks can be extremely beneficial. A half-orc basically has a +6 bonus to many combat related strength based checks compared to a gnome.

[Morphic tide]

So you think that a race's favored class is determinant of the class they should be? In the same way you are comparing a gnome bard with a half-orc, it's only fair to compare a martial orc to a martial gnome. In this case you really can't see the benefit being an orc has over being a gnome?
Given the sole reason we're discussing martial Orcs is that that is the obvious use of the stats, with you not mentioning my observation that Half-Orcs opening one mental stat still opens quite a few routes the pure Orc is outright terrible at due to the tyranny of minimum scores? I'd say comparing "what the race is good for" to "what the race is good for" is accurate. And if you actually use the rule Favored Class refers to, it is an absolutely massive matter because 30% less XP is obscene. Thus almost nobody using it, because it is a truly crippling binary distinction on a very sketchy basis. You can refer to Wizard or Beguiler or Sorcerer or whatever other class has decent Illusion spells for that save DC bonus to work on instead, but Bard is the one of those most likely to be using a Bow that eventually applies Strength.


What you find bland, I find incredibly interesting and more complex than you give it credit for. Overall it just appears as though you think strength itself isn't that strong of a stat. You'd be wrong, but I don't think I'd be the best person to convince you otherwise. Just know that what you are describing is wholly subjective.
You're obsessing over the extrapolation of literally one number, that Half-Elf is in the extreme minority for lacking. If we compare to the full Elf, +2 Dexterity applies to a lot more things with a lot more shenanigans from a lot more abilities applying it to additional things. It's not Charisma's absurdities of X stat to Y bonus or the hotline to t1 that Intelligence or Wisdom are, but if you are willing to set a target combat competence a variety of races can meet it's generally going to see moreoverall value from Elf than Half-Orc.


You say that the strength skills are easily bypassed, but what about an (half-)elf's sleep immunity? Most forms of magical sleep and other hostile enchantments are going to be negated by a level 1 spell just as those strength skills can easily be negated. A +1 bonus to listen, search, and spot checks is far, far weaker than a straight up +2 to wisdom. The +2 bonus to gather information is pretty superfluous considering how easy those checks actually are. I can't deny that the +2 to diplomacy is pretty nice, but its strength depends solely on your DM. Even against a pure elf, using an armor based class can negate the value of that +2 dex, having -2 con is equal to being more vulnerable to fort saves, lesser concentration checks, and suffering 1*level worth of damage at the start of every battle. Ok, sure, elves get low light vision and weapon proficiencies, but if you're a fighter your extra proficiencies mean nothing and the half-orc's darkvision is superior to low light vision.
Again, ignoring that classes other than pure martials have interest in Strength (the previously-mentioned Cleric would appreciate the proficiencies), and you're ignoring the Flat-Footed/Touch tradeoff, and ignoring that there's a lot more versatility in the skills Dexterity applies to, and that the pure Elf's getting that Dexterity bump alongside racial skill bonuses. Go ahead, try making that tradeoff at low levels on the Duskblade or Bard purging the Intelligence and Charisma penalties opened up, I'll be laughing at your Arcane Spell Failure while I centralize attack rolls.


All you're doing is comparing the "benefits" of one race through a singular biased lens to support your claim that half-orc is just bad. Doing it the other way should make it pretty obvious that doing that works both ways.
I'm saying it's bland, not that it's bad. The current one is bad, but Troacctid's suggested "fix" makes it the single blantest race in the game with its sole advertisement being which ability score it gets a +2 to, with no -2 to establish relative weaknesses or additional bonuses outside the +2 ability score to make "Half-Orc" overtly matter the way the "frills" on the others do.


I don't get what you mean. +2 strength is as valuable rolling or using arrays as it is in point buy. Just as fortitude, reflex, or will saves can be valuable (which a half-orc receives 0 penalties for by the way), not having a -4 on grapple checks can be extremely beneficial. A half-orc basically has a +6 bonus to many combat related strength based checks compared to a gnome.
...No, it is vastly more valuable in point-buy because if you're aiming for the generally-available 18 a racial +2 is saving you six points, letting you take an 8 for a -1 modifier to a 14 for a +2 modifier. Even comparing 16 to 14+2, it's still +4 points.

Do you not know that the "min" in "min-maxing" refers to "minimizing downsides", and some people actually like that part being an active pursuit instead of having an overshadowing no-downsides option like the Human bonus feat and omnipresent Fighter dips?

[Troacctid]

Morphic tide, I disagree with your basic premise that ability score penalties inherently make a player race more interesting. I think that at best, they are boring knobs for adjusting power level, and at worst, they make the race less interesting by blocking off potential combinations and pigeonholing you into a too-narrow range of options. Well, okay, at the actual worst, they reinforce historically racist tropes and stereotypes, but that's not something I want to really delve into in this particular thread.

Do you not know that the "min" in "min-maxing" refers to "minimizing downsides", and some people actually like that part being an active pursuit instead of having an overshadowing no-downsides option like the Human bonus feat and omnipresent Fighter dips?
No, it refers to minimizing some aspects of the character in order to maximize others. Usually this means committing to being really bad at the things you were already going to be bad at so that you can focus your resources into being really good at the thing you want to be good at.

[Morphic tide]

Morphic tide, I disagree with your basic premise that ability score penalties inherently make a player race more interesting. I think that at best, they are boring knobs for adjusting power level, and at worst, they make the race less interesting by blocking off potential combinations and pigeonholing you into a too-narrow range of options.
Do you really find no value in working around a cost built into a benefit? Do you seriously think the game should operate solely on degrees of upside and opportunity costs, with no direct downsides? Because that's what this position of yours pretty much inevitably concludes in. And as seen when they did that in 5e, it's just going to happen again with there being fixed bonuses in the first place.


No, it refers to minimizing some aspects of the character in order to maximize others. Usually this means committing to being really bad at the things you were already going to be bad at so that you can focus your resources into being really good at the thing you want to be good at.
How many places am I going to have to quote giving "minimizing weaknesses while maximizing strengths" and similar for you to understand it's the general case? Because I've got GiantBomb, Urban Dictionary, TV tropes, a number of Reddit, stackexchange, and Quora questions, the general D&D fandom wiki, the Wikipedia glossary of video game terms... Pretty clearly the more common one.

[Troacctid]

Do you really find no value in working around a cost built into a benefit? Do you seriously think the game should operate solely on degrees of upside and opportunity costs, with no direct downsides? Because that's what this position of yours pretty much inevitably concludes in. And as seen when they did that in 5e, it's just going to happen again with there being fixed bonuses in the first place.
No, I just think that the qualitative blandness of ability score bonuses and penalties is basically static, and turning that knob a couple ticks in one direction or another doesn't make a race more or less bland to any noticeable degree. Half-orc is pretty bland if you remove the ability score penalties, but only because it was already just as bland before removing them.


How many places am I going to have to quote giving "minimizing weaknesses while maximizing strengths" and similar for you to understand it's the general case? Because I've got GiantBomb, Urban Dictionary, TV tropes, a number of Reddit, stackexchange, and Quora questions, the general D&D fandom wiki, the Wikipedia glossary of video game terms... Pretty clearly the more common one.
Five? I'll say five. Five is a good number.

[pabelfly]

So, first comment: there are roughly 54 separate races without racial HD or level adjustment in 3e, and 173 if you're taking into account the various subtypes of a race (so, an Arctic Half-Orc and Desert Half-Orc would count as two separate options). Then we can start getting into ECL 2 options and so forth. How much are we balancing? What's our metric for a "balanced race" ? Having so many options is inevitably going to lead to options that are better than others, it seems like attempting to balance this is the sort of task that would never end and add pointless bloat and complexity to a homebrew system.

That said, let's talk balance. Orc is a perfectly fine and doesn't need any adjustment, in my opinion. +4 STR is pretty good for any sort of melee character, as long as you can stand a slight hit to mental stats. Orc is also fairly often chosen as a LA 0 mundane martial race, if that's the metric we need to use to judge the quality of a race.

Half-Orc is a bit more niche, but having access to Headlong Rush and Channeled Rage makes a decent Barbarian or Barbarian multiclass. As someone else said, it's not a bad option for a wisdom-based Gish either. It's not the most popular option, but I don't see it as being such a bad option that it necessitates homebrew to fix it.

[redking]

I did a whole thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?656201-Half-elf-half-orc-and-tieflings-as-templates-instead-of-discrete-races) on half races as templates instead of races, including half-orcs.

Is it crazy to have hybrid creatures as templates instead? I note that if you want a half-elf gnome, you can't do that. Instead you are locked into half-elf half human (called a half-elf). Same with the half-orc. But what if they could breed with any humanoid?

Half-Elf Template
To apply the half-elf template to a humanoid creature, apply the following changes to the base creature:

1. Size: The base creature's size remains unchanged.
2. Speed: The base creature's land speed remains unchanged.
3. Special Qualities: The base creature gains the following special qualities:
a. Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
b. Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
c. Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.
4. Skills: The base creature gains a +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks, and a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
5. Languages: The base creature retains its automatic languages and gains Elven as an automatic language. It can also learn any bonus languages available to the base creature.
6. Favored Class: The base creature can choose its favored class from its original favored class (before applying the template) or Wizard (the favored class of elves). When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, their highest-level class does not count.

Half-Orc Template
To apply the half-orc template to a humanoid creature, apply the following changes to the base creature:

1. Size: The base creature's size remains unchanged.
2. Ability Score Adjustments: The base creature's ability scores are adjusted as follows: +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. Its starting Intelligence score must be at least 3.
3. Speed: The base creature's land speed remains unchanged.
4. Special Qualities: The base creature gains the following special qualities:
a. Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
b. Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
5. Languages: The base creature retains its automatic languages and gains Orc as an automatic language. It can also learn the following bonus languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
6. Favored Class: The base creature can choose its favored class from its original favored class (before applying the template) or Barbarian (the favored class of half-orcs). A multiclass half-orc's chosen favored class does not count when determining whether they take an experience point penalty.

Tiefling Template
Tiefling is an inherited template that can be added to any creature with the humanoid type (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A tiefling retains all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here. The tiefling template represents the distant evil outsider ancestry, such as a demon or devil, within the base creature's bloodline.

Examples of creatures that could have the tiefling template include humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, orcs, and goblinoids.

Size and Type: The base creature's type changes to outsider (native). Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.

Hit Dice: Change all of the base creature's racial Hit Dice to d8s.

Speed: Tiefling retains the base creature's speed.

Armor Class: The base creature's natural armor bonus increases by +1.

Attack: A tiefling retains all the attacks of the base creature and also gains a claw attack if it didn't already have one. If the base creature can use weapons, the tiefling retains this ability. A tiefling fighting without weapons uses its claw attack when making an attack action. When it has a weapon, it usually uses the weapon instead.

Full Attack: A tiefling fighting without weapons uses its claw attack (see above) when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its claw as a natural secondary attack.

Damage: Tieflings have claw attacks that deal the indicated damage plus their Strength bonus.

Special Attacks: A tiefling retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains the following special attack.

Darkness (Sp): A tiefling can use darkness, as the spell, once per day. Its caster level is equal to its character level.

Special Qualities: A tiefling retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains the following.

- Darkvision out to 60 feet.
- Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.
- +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks.

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.

Skills: A tiefling gains skill points as an outsider and has skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier) × (Hit Dice + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the tiefling gains outsider skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature's list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class.

Environment: Same as the base creature.

Organization: Solitary or family.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +1.

Alignment: Usually evil (any).

Advancement: By character class.

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +1.

Has anyone ever done this at their table? All I did was take the relevant parts of half-elf, half-orc and tiefling races and change it to a template.

Edit: just in case, a half-human template.

Half-Human Template
To apply the half-human template to a humanoid creature, apply the following changes to the base creature:

1. Size: The base creature's size remains unchanged.
2. Speed: The base creature's land speed remains unchanged.
3. Special Qualities: The base creature gains the following special qualities:
a. Human Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-human is considered a human.
b. Adaptability: Half-humans receive Skill Focus as a bonus feat at 1st level.
4. Skills: The base creature gains an additional skill point at each level. If the base creature already had extra skill points per level (such as from a racial trait), this bonus stacks with the existing bonus.
5. Languages: The base creature retains its automatic languages and gains Common as an automatic language. It can also learn any bonus languages available to the base creature or humans.
6. Favored Class: The base creature can choose its favored class from its original favored class (before applying the template) or any one additional class. When determining whether a multiclass half-human takes an experience point penalty, their highest-level class does not count.

So what do you do in the instance of a hybrid of orc and elf? First you decide which ancestry the base creature favours biologically. If it is majority orc, then it is an orc base creature with the half-elf template applied. Any variant works the same way.

[Pugwampy]

Back at 3.5 after a very long hiatus. I never fixed the Half-Orc back in the day and now have a mind to. I've looked through a lot of old post around the internet but am wondering what people are doing now in 2023. My main concern is the racial modifiers, what I'm thinking right now is:

+2 STR, -2 INT or CHA
+2 on intimidate checks

Thinking I need one or two more things in there, something with flavor due to being a half orc whether its a feat, skill proficiencies or something else.

I am an mega Orc fan . Thank you Warcraft 3 .

3.5 was very unfair orcs . Just compare everything gnomes and Dwarves get to orcs . Author loved gnomes but hated orcs clearly . I played a pure 3.5 orc Barbarian he was not totally useless . +2 to Str is massive .

Pathfinder 1e very much fixed the 3.5 imbalance . Pathfinder also reminds us that Half Orcs are half human

I recommend you read Pathfinder Core rules for all your Orky Needs . PF players handbook II also has more Half Orc Options .

[Metastachydium]

People play Half-Orc for the dearth of other Strength races, not because it's actively good. And if you're willing to accept the lopsided penalty there's not much reason not to go full Orc for +4 Strength, unless you really want Spot/Listen or are relying on that Wisdom for prepared Divine casting or Manifesting.

Yup. And a melee gish can always go Skarn or Darfellan or especially Lesser Zenythri. The full Orc's +4 with no LA makes it a rare and occasionally useful tool. Half-Orc… Is not in the same boat.


I suspect this is considerably more sweeping than will be helpful to you, but I've actually used what you're asking for in games, so, here's my half-orc fix:

Orcs are not interfertile with humans.

But what about the unneccessarily cringe backstory drama, then?!


Orcs replace half-orcs as a standard player race.

Hard disagree. Full Orcs could live with only two stat penalties (WotC really does oversell STR as a stat), but that doesn't mean shafting them is the way to go.


Large exotic weapon

That's a 3.0-ism.


(two-handed for dwarves, humans, or elves; unusable by halflings or gnomes)

As is that (if not outright a 5e-ism). It's also odd how that ignores, like, all the other races in the game.

Overall, I'd recommend ripping off the warmaceCW, but having it deal slashing and be done with it.


I did a whole thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?656201-Half-elf-half-orc-and-tieflings-as-templates-instead-of-discrete-races) on half races as templates instead of races, including half-orcs.

[SPOILER=Half-Orc template ]

Heh. I did a Half-Orc template of my own recently, albeit the focus was… Somewhat different. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25911268&postcount=206) (The same thread has an Orc-Elf hybrid as well somewhere, because Elves and Orcs hybridizing freely with Humans but not each other struck me as odd.)

[Gnaeus]

Yup. And a melee gish can always go Skarn or Darfellan or especially Lesser Zenythri. The full Orc's +4 with no LA makes it a rare and occasionally useful tool. Half-Orc… Is not in the same boat.


Can they always? Orcs are pretty darn common across D&D settings. I think in most games, Half orc will be an option, and orc also possibly. Hey, Mr. DM, I'm a thing from MM2 using an optional template from Races of Faerun to make something that most people think is at the top of the race scale doesn't seem like a slam dunk to me. I mean they can ALWAYS play a mineral warrior with LA buyoff.

But sure, if lesser Zenthyri are in fact common in your game, you could boost half orc.

It is not always necessary to balance things to the strongest published option. I'd be more likely to rewrite lesser Zenthri....

[Prime32]

No, I just think that the qualitative blandness of ability score bonuses and penalties is basically static, and turning that knob a couple ticks in one direction or another doesn't make a race more or less bland to any noticeable degree. Half-orc is pretty bland if you remove the ability score penalties, but only because it was already just as bland before removing them.
Warforged are one of my favorite races from a design perspective, having +2 Con/-2 Wis/-2 Cha but also abilities that synergise well with Wis- and Cha-based classes.
Many of their racial traits also have massive impact on how they'd be deployed in large-scale wars (from "march non-stop without food" to "deprive enemy necromancers of resources"), making it believable how warforged soldiers became so popular. And their background even creates some ambiguity in how much the mental penalties are from them being artificial beings, vs them being a race of thralls who were all dumped into a brutal war shortly after creation.

One of the few classes you could argue has anti-synergy with warforged is sorcerer... and that makes sense even, since warforged can't have magical bloodlines in the traditional sense.


So... what orcish traits could emphasise the role of orcs and half-orcs in the setting, and/or make orc characters feel different?

All classes have full BAB, and/or upgrade their Hit Dice to d8s. Even their wizards and sorcerers can handle themselves in a fight. This might be a bit much for incarnates, but it we wanted to handle that...
Orcs generate an aura which weakens incarnum, causing all receptacles to function as if invested with 1 less point of essentia; they are affected by their own aura.
Incarnum is soul energy, right? So when an orc kills someone its soul goes to Gruumsh rather than its standard afterlife, making them harder to return to life.
Bringing an orc into civilisation is somehow dangerous. Maybe they cause manufactured materials to grow weaker (also making them better at sundering); this could also lead to orcs gaining Improvised Weapon Proficiency and/or the ability to confirm a crit by shattering their weapon. Or potentially an ability which lets them sunder a wall of force or the like.

[Metastachydium]

Can they always? Orcs are pretty darn common across D&D settings. I think in most games, Half orc will be an option, and orc also possibly. Hey, Mr. DM, I'm a thing from MM2 using an optional template from Races of Faerun to make something that most people think is at the top of the race scale doesn't seem like a slam dunk to me. I mean they can ALWAYS play a mineral warrior with LA buyoff.

But sure, if lesser Zenthyri are in fact common in your game, you could boost half orc.

It is not always necessary to balance things to the strongest published option.

I once played an actual Winged Dark Lesser Zenythri, but "Lesser Zenythri is awesome"'s not really my point. The point is, 3.5 is the edition with all the options. That includes, naturally, "all the races with boosts to STR". Some are stellar (Lesser Zenythri, Water Orc), some do the job and are at least interesting (my other two off-the-top-of-my-bepetaled-bit examples), some of them are kinda horrible but the one right tool for stuff (Orc/Mountain Orc) – and then there is Half-Orc, which is really not one of these.

So… If your argument is "but what about all the games where you want a WIS-based melee gish that isn't a DMM Cleric, and you can only use Core races", I have to say I'm strongly whatever on that. I mean, there are niche places where Half-Elves and even Commoners shine, but that doesn't make either a terribly good thing inherently.



I'd be more likely to rewrite lesser Zenthri....

OVER MY WARMER THAN USUAL (BECAUSE OF DECAY-RELATED STUFF) BODY!!

[Gnaeus]

I once played an actual Winged Dark Lesser Zenythri, but "Lesser Zenythri is awesome"'s not really my point. The point is, 3.5 is the edition with all the options. That includes, naturally, "all the races with boosts to STR". Some are stellar (Lesser Zenythri, Water Orc), some do the job and are at least interesting (my other two off-the-top-of-my-bepetaled-bit examples), some of them are kinda horrible but the one right tool for stuff (Orc/Mountain Orc) – and then there is Half-Orc, which is really not one of these.

So… If your argument is "but what about all the games where you want a WIS-based melee gish that isn't a DMM Cleric, and you can only use Core races", I have to say I'm strongly whatever on that. I mean, there are niche places where Half-Elves and even Commoners shine, but that doesn't make either a terribly good thing inherently.

OVER MY WARMER THAN USUAL (BECAUSE OF DECAY-RELATED STUFF) BODY!!

No. My argument is that the core source is more likely to be available in a campaign and a reasonable balance point than something out of the notoriously imbalanced MM2 with a LA reducing template from a campaign specific book. With nearly no racial lore (and less that makes sense) so you can't even really argue that you want to roleplay one. The flaw in lesser Zenthri isn't its stats. Its that it is so obviously munchkin that many DMs will start by rejecting it, and then view everything else you suggest with a negative connotation. Its like arguing that druids are too weak and need boosts because planar shepherds exist. In my game, I'd probably be cool with Darfellan in a water themed campaign. Wouldn't allow the other because we don't have the source book. On the other hand, I have seen PC and NPC half-orcs in most of the recent campaigns I have been in/run. It seems like a reasonably popular and balanced option for players who like the Big Barbarian archetype.

[Metastachydium]

No. My argument is that the core source is more likely to be available in a campaign and a reasonable balance point than something out of the notoriously imbalanced MM2 with a LA reducing template from a campaign specific book. With nearly no racial lore (and less that makes sense) so you can't even really argue that you want to roleplay one. The flaw in lesser Zenthri isn't its stats. Its that it is so obviously munchkin that many DMs will start by rejecting it, and then view everything else you suggest with a negative connotation. Its like arguing that druids are too weak and need boosts because planar shepherds exist.

It's a good thing, then, that I only brought it up as an example for niche things that are awesome (albeit I would be remiss not to remind you that Druid versus Planar Shepherd is an entirely different league than "who gets better +2s to some stat (plus a 1/day SLA and some energy resistence)"). Again, Lesser Zenythri is merely an extreme outlier on a spectrum with Half-Orc at its literal tail end.


In my game, I'd probably be cool with Darfellan in a water themed campaign. Wouldn't allow the other because we don't have the source book.

The actual go to high end STR-toter, the Water Orc, in the meantime, is SRD material. As is Maenad, an interesting (if not very powerful) twist on the STR-rager. Wood Elf, meanwhile is Core with +2 to STR and DEX. If SW isn't out by default, maybe nor is FB and then Neanderthal is on the table. The list goes on.


On the other hand, I have seen PC and NPC half-orcs in most of the recent campaigns I have been in/run. It seems like a reasonably popular and balanced option for players who like the Big Barbarian archetype.

It's boring. It's bland. If all you want is Big Dumb Bruiser Available Online and for Free, full Orc is simply far better.

And again, if you don't mind 3.5 not being 5 "we have like four races in the whole game, but at least they don't do anything much interesting" e and branch out into the splats, even Half-Orc can be made more interesting through using another type, such as Scabland, Frostblood or Water (not its full Orc cousin, but still better than the PHB one).

[Gnaeus]

It's a good thing, then, that I only brought it up as an example for niche things that are awesome (albeit I would be remiss not to remind you that Druid versus Planar Shepherd is an entirely different league than "who gets better +2s to some stat (plus a 1/day SLA and some energy resistence)"). Again, Lesser Zenythri is merely an extreme outlier on a spectrum with Half-Orc at its literal tail end.

And we should use what by your admission is an extreme outlier as the standard because? Also, Half orc is not at the literal tail end.



The actual go to high end STR-toter, the Water Orc, in the meantime, is SRD material. As is Maenad, an interesting (if not very powerful) twist on the STR-rager. Wood Elf, meanwhile is Core with +2 to STR and DEX. If SW isn't out by default, maybe nor is FB and then Neanderthal is on the table. The list goes on.

It's boring. It's bland. If all you want is Big Dumb Bruiser Available Online and for Free, full Orc is simply far better.

And again, if you don't mind 3.5 not being 5 "we have like four races in the whole game, but at least they don't do anything much interesting" e and branch out into the splats, even Half-Orc can be made more interesting through using another type, such as Scabland, Frostblood or Water (not its full Orc cousin, but still better than the PHB one).

Honestly, I don't think either Maenad or Neanderthal is any better than 1/2 orc. I'd say 1/2 orc is comparable to Neanderthal and superior to Maenad. Wood elf I wouldn't say is better in general than 1/2 orc. Con penalty is very bad for the kinds of characters who might want to be half-orcs, especially barbarians. I wouldn't say their racial ribbons are much better than darkvision. Full orc may be a bit better from a flat stat perspective, but does have a -2 wis (an issue for most of the classes they may want) light sensitivity, and the potential issue of being more negatively recieved all the way up to KOS for many campaigns. Like goblins, kobolds, etc, the fact that they have playable stats and may be appropriate for some games with evil themes doesn't mean they are intended for play or will not cause bigger problems. A race is more than a stat block.

[Metastachydium]

And we should use what by your admission is an extreme outlier as the standard because?

Well, since as the annexed figure shows:


"Lesser Zenythri is awesome"'s not really my point. The point is, 3.5 is the edition with all the options. That includes, naturally, "all the races with boosts to STR". Some are stellar (Lesser Zenythri, Water Orc), some do the job and are at least interesting (my other two off-the-top-of-my-bepetaled-bit examples), some of them are kinda horrible but the one right tool for stuff (Orc/Mountain Orc) – and then there is Half-Orc, which is really not one of these.


It's a good thing, then, that I only brought it up as an example for niche things that are awesome (albeit I would be remiss not to remind you that Druid versus Planar Shepherd is an entirely different league than "who gets better +2s to some stat (plus a 1/day SLA and some energy resistence)"). Again, Lesser Zenythri is merely an extreme outlier on a spectrum with Half-Orc at its literal tail end.

The actual go to high end STR-toter, the Water Orc, in the meantime, is SRD material.

(…)

[Half-Orc]'s boring. It's bland. If all you want is Big Dumb Bruiser Available Online and for Free, full Orc is simply far better.

And again, if you don't mind 3.5 not being 5 "we have like four races in the whole game, but at least they don't do anything much interesting" e and branch out into the splats, even Half-Orc can be made more interesting through using another type, such as Scabland, Frostblood or Water (not its full Orc cousin, but still better than the PHB one).

I really never said that, so you'll have to answer that question yourself.


Also, Half orc is not at the literal tail end.

It really is in its niche, if you ask me. It's kinda mediocre for one thing, and that's about it. Also, again, it's somehow more BORING than even Half-Elf.


I'd say 1/2 orc is comparable to Neanderthal

Lower CON, unbalanced stat boosts, no unique abilities… You are seriously overselling Darkvision there.


and superior to Maenad.

Depends on what you use them for, and certainly not if psionics is on the table (and if Maenad is, then psionics also is, really). At any rate, I brought it up as something that can basically be a Half-Orc-but-more-interesting sometimes, while capable of fitting into other niches far better.


Wood elf I wouldn't say is better in general than 1/2 orc. Con penalty is very bad for the kinds of characters who might want to be half-orcs, especially barbarians.

Whirling Frenzy's a thing, and generally highly regarded. Also, Wood Elf makes a passable Barbarian with a right build and, once more, can do other things as well.


Full orc may be a bit better from a flat stat perspective, but does have a -2 wis (an issue for most of the classes they may want)

I'll bite. Why does the Big Barbarian you were talkiong about a post ago need a stellar WIS? I'm very curious.


light sensitivity,

…can occasionally be an annoyance under certain circumstances if you're not allowed to spend 10 gp on basically removing it.


and the potential issue of being more negatively recieved all the way up to KOS for many campaigns. Like goblins, kobolds, etc, the fact that they have playable stats and may be appropriate for some games with evil themes doesn't mean they are intended for play or will not cause bigger problems. A race is more than a stat block.

1. If they have an LA and are balanced roughly against playable races, they are intended for play by definition.
2. "A race is more than a statblock" and "if the statblock says Evil, they will be attacked on sight" are weird things to say with the same breath.

At any rate, if in your games "the Elves live in the Elven forests chewing leaves and hysterically attacking things looking anything like an Orc at the blink of an eye", I don't envy you, and that setup would make me want to play a Half-Orc less rather than more, no matter what its stats are. I mean, if "you are a dumb brute shunned by others with an ugly backstory and probably fighting back strong urges to go EVIL on civilisation because it's in your blood" appeals to you or something, I'm not gonna stop you, but… Blegh.

[Maat Mons]

Edit: Partially ninja-ed.

I think a lot of people are playing in settings much less xenophobic than you’re imagining.

Light Sensitivity is really a non-issue. It’s completely fixed by wearing sunglasses. And yes, D&D has official stats for sunglasses, which explicitly note that they negate Light Sensitivity. They’re called Sundark Goggles, and they’re in Races of the Dragon. They cost 10 gp.

If sunglasses aren’t your style, Arctic Orcs don’t have Light Sensitivity, though they also lack Darkvision. I initially thought Desert Orcs and Jungle Orcs wouldn’t have Light Sensitivity, since they also lack Darkvision, but somehow, they manage to be hindered by bright light despite only possessing Low-Light Vision.

Since we’re comparing the various +Str races, I’ll just go ahead and list all the +0 LA, no RHD ones.

Bakemono: +4 str, +2 con, -8 int, -4 cha; Dragon 318 – 44, Oriental Adventures 146
Minotaur, Krynn: +4 str, -2 dex, -2 int, -2 cha; Dragonlance Campaign Setting 42
Orc: +4 str, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha; Monster Manual 203
Orc, Water: +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha; Unearthed Arcana 18
Shalarin: +4 str, +4 dex; Player's Guide to Faerun web enhancement & Monsters of Faerun 76

Cyclopean, Feral-Kind: +2 str, +2 con, -2 dex, -2 int; Dragon 323 – 92
Darfellan: +2 str, -2 dex; Stormwrack 37
Dwarf, Aquatic: +2 str, +2 con, -4 dex, -2 cha; Unearthed Arcana 7
Dwarf, Arctic: +2 str, +2 con, -4 dex,-2 cha; Unearthed Arcana 9
Dwarf, Earth: +2 str, +2 con, -2 dex, -2 cha; Unearthed Arcana 16
Elf, Wood: +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int; Monster Manual 104
Half-Orc: +2 str, -2 int, -2 cha; Player's Handbook 18
Hengeyokai, Raccoon Dog (Hybrid Form): +2 str, -2 wis; Dragon 318 – 34 & Oriental Adventures 10
Human, Complacent: +2 any; Dragon 320 – 87
Neanderthal: +2 str, +2 con, -2 dex, -2 int; Frostburn 36
Skarns: +2 str, -2 dex; Magic of Incarnum 15

Azerblood, Lesser: +2 str, +2 con, -2 cha; Player’s Guide to Faerun 191 & Dragon 350 – 50
Genasi, Earth, Lesser: +2 str, +2 con, -2 wis, -2 cha; Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 19 & Player’s Guide to Faerun 191
Para-Genasi, Magma, Lesser: +2 str, +2 con, -2 int, -2 wis; Player’s Guide to Faerun 191 & Dragon 297 – 65
Zenythri, Lesser: +2 str, +2 dex, +2 wis, -2 cha; Player’s Guide to Faerun 191 & Monster Manual II 170

Of those, Bakemono, Shalarin, and Aquatic Dwarves are the only ones I’d consider unsuitable for many campaigns. I could see lesser planetouched being disallowed due to some of them being too good.

How about 3 orcish subraces?
“Graceful” Orcs: +4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha
“Clever” Orcs: +4 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Cha
“Sociable” Orcs: +4 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Int

[Darg]

I think a lot of people are playing in settings much less xenophobic than you’re imagining.

That doesn't negate the fact that they do exist. Faerun is a popular one for example. Yes, in a free range environment half-orc doesn't have as much going for it. However, it's still a valuable pick.


Lower CON, unbalanced stat boosts, no unique abilities… You are seriously overselling Darkvision there.

One could say you are underselling Darkvision. Unless stated otherwise, Darkvision can still see in magical darkness even as you still suffer the concealment miss chance. This is incredibly valuable as even the spell can't even do that because it specifically excludes magical darkness.

[Tzardok]

What? Darkvision can't see in magic darkness. That's the whole point. You can only see in magical darkness if It's explicitely called out that you can, and that is only the case for hellbred and baatezu.

Edit: Furthermore, while many places in FR do have bad relations with orcs, Faerûn is big and there are many where orcs are at least tolerated. The Zhentarim for example hire orcs as mercenaries, and everywhere those hold power an orc can walk the street without being attacked. (Not to mention that even Silverymoon's famous anti-orc ward allows the possibility of keying an orc in to make him an exception. So it is possible for an orc to win the trust of the people of Silverymoon and be accepted.)

[Gnaeus]

. Also, again, it's somehow more BORING than even Half-Elf.


Possibly. But 110000% less boring than Zenthri, which has pretty much no racial lore at all. Ribbon abilities don't make races interesting. Stories make races interesting. Half Orcs are more important to the lore than like 95% of the listed +str races put together.



I'll bite. Why does the Big Barbarian you were talkiong about a post ago need a stellar WIS? I'm very curious.

Failing a will save commonly renders you useless or an active liability. Fighters and barbarians are not generally good at will saves.




1. If they have an LA and are balanced roughly against playable races, they are intended for play by definition.


That isn't even remotely true. Races in books like the PHB are intended for play by definition. Monsters with LA may be appropriate for play in some campaigns


2. "A race is more than a statblock" and "if the statblock says Evil, they will be attacked on sight" are weird things to say with the same breath.

At any rate, if in your games "the Elves live in the Elven forests chewing leaves and hysterically attacking things looking anything like an Orc at the blink of an eye", I don't envy you, and that setup would make me want to play a Half-Orc less rather than more, no matter what its stats are. I mean, if "you are a dumb brute shunned by others with an ugly backstory and probably fighting back strong urges to go EVIL on civilisation because it's in your blood" appeals to you or something, I'm not gonna stop you, but… Blegh.

You can play Friendship is Magic and discuss how all ponies should be friends, and faerun can only advance if the devils are beaten by the power of friendship, but I don't envy you either. A race is more than a statblock means that PC races, not Zenthri, tend to have established cultures. Established relationships with other races. An evil (non drow) elf is unlikely to be KOS in an elf city. An orc is more likely to be shot or thrown in prison. Or maybe they aren't KOS. Maybe they are only prohibited from most shops, charged huge markups, or commonly arrested on suspicion of crimes they had nothing to do with. Yes, I have a +1 sword. 10kgp, take it or leave it. The PCs are invited to a noble banquet to get their questions answered, but not the orc. Yes, orcs are welcome in lands owned by the Zhentarim. Because there are some places in a world where monsters are playable PCs, does not mean monsters are playable PCs in a given campaign, or that if they are, they don't have social drawbacks that wildly exceed a +2 strength. Some classes, some PRCs are intended primarily for NPC play, and because of 3.5's transparency, could be played by a PC. Red wizard is a great example. Because they can be played, and in some games are reasonable PCs, doesn't mean that in a specific game they won't be KOS, or banned, or have other issues. Honestly, thats true of most races/classes/options, but monster races to a much larger degree.

[Metastachydium]

Failing a will save commonly renders you useless or an active liability. Fighters and barbarians are not generally good at will saves.

Raging handily counteracts the issue of a -1 to Will, and that's before you'd consider stuff like Steadfast Determination (for which a Frostblood (Half-)Orc juste gets the prerequisite Endurance for free).


That isn't even remotely true. Races in books like the PHB are intended for play by definition. Monsters with LA may be appropriate for play in some campaigns


Yes, I'm sure no RHD, LA +0 (both useless for a DM) are shorthands for "this is not for players, you cannot play this".


You can play Friendship is Magic and discuss how all ponies should be friends, and faerun can only advance if the devils are beaten by the power of friendship, but I don't envy you either.

I'm not very familiar with MLP minutiae, but that really sounds more like your position than mine. I mean, you are the one insisting that. like, five racial monocultures waging a forever war against several other monocultures that are INHERENTLY EVIL is interesting lore and good writing. For my part, I find racial monocultures uniquely stupid and find about any reason for conflict better than "their statblock says they are mostly born EVIL". I prefer actual nuance, and several races with similar or complementary skillsets coexisting in a habitat, representing their shared interests, be them political, economical or what you will sometimes in league with and sometimes opposed by other such multiracial clusters none of which has to be inherently badwrong is that; "the elven woods are home to the elves" (an actual quote from 1st party sources, sadly) and "orcs are the sworn enemies of dwarves and elves" is not that.



A race is more than a statblock means that PC races, not Zenthri,

I think you should either stop hyperfixating on Zenythri (as, while absolutely a race, they are not particularly important for the discussion at hand) or at least learn how to spell their name.


tend to have established cultures. Established relationships with other races. An evil (non drow) elf is unlikely to be KOS in an elf city. An orc is more likely to be shot or thrown in prison.

See above on racial monocultures (i.e., case in point). That some Elves adapted to an underground habitat and became more magical in the process, which grants them and other subterranean races unique advantages in accessing or controlling certain resources &c. is an interesting concept. That living in complete darkness where some other resources are scarce and monsters are abundant might colour their outlook is also an interesting concept. "They are demented obsessive backstabbers and are turned into spider monsters if they aren't Evil enough, oh and sexism, no (or few) exceptions" is stupid and cringe.


Possibly. But 110000% less boring than Zenthri, which has pretty much no racial lore at all. Ribbon abilities don't make races interesting. Stories make races interesting. Half Orcs are more important to the lore than like 95% of the listed +str races put together.

Or maybe they aren't KOS. Maybe they are only prohibited from most shops, charged huge markups, or commonly arrested on suspicion of crimes they had nothing to do with. Yes, I have a +1 sword. 10kgp, take it or leave it. The PCs are invited to a noble banquet to get their questions answered, but not the orc.

You know what? Let's take a look at that super interesting racial lore of Half-Orcs that makes them super interesting and circumvents these issues! Let's see:


Half-orcs tend to be short-tempered and sullen. They would rather act than ponder and would rather fight than argue. Those who are successful, however, are those with enough self-control to live in a civilized land, not the crazy ones. Half-orcs love simple pleasures such as feasting, drinking, boasting, singing, wrestling, drumming, and wild dancing. Refined enjoyments such as poetry, courtly dancing, and philosophy are lost on them. At the right sort of party, a half-orc is an asset. At the duchess's grand ball, he's a liability.

Oh tight, "they big and very dumb". A thing of beauty, really. Also, no invitation to the noble banquet either, even though that was the point of being a Half-Orc! Oh, my.


Because orcs are the sworn enemies of dwarves and elves, half-orcs can have a rough time with members of these races. For that matter, orcs aren't exactly on good terms with humans, halflings, or gnomes, either. Each half-orc finds a way to gain acceptance from those who hate or fear his orc cousins. Some half-orcs are reserved, trying not to draw attention to themselves. A few demonstrate piety and good-heartedness as publicly as they can (whether or not such demonstrations are genuine). Others simply try to be so tough that others have no choice but to accept them.

Anf guess what? Nobody likes them either! They either have to be extreme doormats (which full Orcs apparently can't do) or go all tough bully (which full Orcs apparently also can't do). Or maybe lie. That -2 to CHA will help a lot with that!


Half-orcs have no lands of their own, but they most often live among orcs. Of the other races, humans are the ones most likely to accept half-orcs, and half-orcs almost always live in human lands when not living among orc tribes.

But hey, at least they deserve it! They are born antisocial, and most of them live with Orcs who are also Evil, so they are Evil too…


Like orcs, many half-orcs worship Gruumsh, the chief orc god and archenemy of Corellon Larethian, god of the elves. (…) Worshipers of Gruumsh who are tired of explaining themselves, or who don't want to give humans a reason to distrust them, simply don't make their religion public knowledge.

…and worship an Evil god! And lie about it some more with that -2 to CHA! I'm starting to see how they fit in so well with their "established culture"!

So, overall,


[h]alf-orcs living among humans are drawn almost invariably toward violent careers in which they can put their strength to good use. Frequently shunned from polite company, half-orcs often find acceptance and friendship among adventurers, many of whom are fellow wanderers and outsiders.

I.e. they not only look like Orcs (unless you take the "must wear mustard yellow with vivid purple" literally) and act like Orcs, they are also treated like Orcs, which makes them, going by their official Established Racial Lore an infinitely better pick as a PC than Orcs who are not for players anyhow! (And Evil. Let's not forget they are also Always Very Evil, unlike Half-Orcs who are Only MOstly Very Evil. Yay.)

[Pugwampy]

I have one Half Orc fix regarding their religion . Grumsh the Orc God is evil , this is problem for Good and Neutral aligned half orcs .

Luthic the Cave mother and Wife of Grumsh i think is an excellent deity for Half Orc heroes .

[Pugwampy]

Are you kidding? Half-orc is the worst of the core races after half-elf, the Str bonus is all it has going for it. It's rarely used except in core-only game in my experience, and not that often even then.

Are you kidding ?

A half orc barbarian enraged with max Str ability is a 1 hit kill monster that can confirm crit attacks on a dice roll of a 2 .
And it gets 1 free attack at neg hp before it goes down.

[JNAProductions]

Are you kidding ?

A half orc barbarian enraged with max Str ability is a 1 hit kill monster that can confirm crit attacks on a dice roll of a 2 .
And it gets 1 free attack at neg hp before it goes down.

Is Half-Orc what's doing that?
Or is max Strength and Barbarian doing that?

[Tzardok]

I have one Half Orc fix regarding their religion . Grumsh the Orc God is evil , this is problem for Good and Neutral aligned half orcs .

Luthic the Cave mother and Wife of Grumsh i think is an excellent deity for Half Orc heroes .

Luthic is Neutral Evil. All the canonical orc gods are either Chaotic or Neutral Evil (or Lawful Evil, if you go for older editions).

[ShurikVch]

I have one Half Orc fix regarding their religion . Grumsh the Orc God is evil , this is problem for Good and Neutral aligned half orcs .

Luthic the Cave mother and Wife of Grumsh i think is an excellent deity for Half Orc heroes .
I leafed through the Half-Orcs with known patron deities on Forgotten Realms Wiki

The only one with Luthic is NE

Non-Evil Half-Orcs worshiped:
Torm - Speck (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Speck);
Selûne - Oagla'ta (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Oagla%27ta);
Helm - Zern Xerkstil (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Zern_Xerkstil);
Eilistraee - Jub (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Jub);
Assuran (Hoar) - Kreodo (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kreodo).
Also, Ulburt (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ulburt) has no patron deity listed - but, considering he was a Harper (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Harpers), it narrowing possibilities...

[Darg]

You can only see in magical darkness if It's explicitely called out that you can, and that is only the case for hellbred and baatezu.

And where is this rule stated? I can't find anything. Even the rules on darkness and blindness from darkness imply that magical darkness doesn't affect a creature with darkvision's ability to see.


Edit: Furthermore, while many places in FR do have bad relations with orcs, Faerûn is big and there are many where orcs are at least tolerated. The Zhentarim for example hire orcs as mercenaries, and everywhere those hold power an orc can walk the street without being attacked. (Not to mention that even Silverymoon's famous anti-orc ward allows the possibility of keying an orc in to make him an exception. So it is possible for an orc to win the trust of the people of Silverymoon and be accepted.)

Sure, it's possible. But not everyone wants or cares to accommodate for meta gaming. As much as everyone wants to be a Drizzt, not everyone can be a Drizzt unless that's the type of game you want to run.

[liquidformat]

3.5 was very unfair orcs . Just compare everything gnomes and Dwarves get to orcs . Author loved gnomes but hated orcs clearly . I played a pure 3.5 orc Barbarian he was not totally useless . +2 to Str is massive .
Orcs and Goblins were done dirty in 3/3.5 I remember waiting and hoping for a Races of book focused around Goblins and Orcs. Since I have been playing around with what I call Races of Scorn; Goblins, Orcs, Worgs, and white wolves are the focus of it.


Counts as both human and orc for the purposes of qualifying for feats, prestige classes etc (half-elf likewise counts as both human and elf)

Apparently my group has always done this for half orcs and half elves as a house rule, I hadn't realized this wasn't the actual rule.


Though if anyone should be allowed to use Str for Intimidate, it should be orcs.
I have played multiple campaigns with adding this and changing to -2 Int or -2 Cha and it has worked out nicely.

[Troacctid]

Apparently my group has always done this for half orcs and half elves as a house rule, I hadn't realized this wasn't the actual rule.
It's an optional rule from Races of Destiny.

[Tzardok]

And where is this rule stated? I can't find anything. Even the rules on darkness and blindness from darkness imply that magical darkness doesn't affect a creature with darkvision's ability to see.

It's in the description of the darkness spell, of course:

This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. All creatures in the area gain concealment (20% miss chance). Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness.
"Normally" in this sentence means "under normal circumstances", to contrast the circumstances caused by the spell. If you still believe that darkvision overcomes that, then tell me: why dies the creature with darkvision still suffer the miss chance that is explicitely caused by it being too dark to see clearly?
Edit: Furthermore, there is this ability mentioned under devils:

See in Darkness (Su): Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.
The description of Darkvision lacks this rider, and anyway, devils have Darkvision on top of this, do why would they need it if Darkvision already could see in magic darkness.
Now, what does Deeper Darkness say?

This spell functions like darkness, except that the object radiates shadowy illumination in a 60-foot radius and the darkness lasts longer.
So the difference between darkness and deeper darkness lies in duration and area, not in the quality of darkness. That means that overcoming Darkvision isn't a trait of deeper darkness, but of magical darkness in general.

[Bavarian itP]

And where is this rule stated? I can't find anything.


I know that the comic is not a definitive reference for the rules, but I'm bringing this up nonetheless :smallbiggrin:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html

[Pugwampy]

Is Half-Orc what's doing that?
Or is max Strength and Barbarian doing that?

You dont get a max 20 Strength without the Half Orc.



Luthic is Neutral Evil. All the canonical orc gods are either Chaotic or Neutral Evil (or Lawful Evil, if you go for older editions).

NE is the least of the 3 evils . Every other race gets to worship their own racial god . Most Half Orc players want the orc experience and as such worshipping an Orc deity is kinda important . Grumsh is too anti social . Cave Mother not so much .

[Tzardok]

Neutral Evil is the least of the evils? Tharizdun, the quintessential omnicidical god, is Neutral Evil.

Gruumsh at least accepts CN clerics. Luthic doesn't. And what is the most common alignment of half-orcs? Chaotic (any).

[Pugwampy]

Tharizdun, the quintessential omnicidical god, is Neutral Evil.

I never heard of that deity .



Gruumsh at least accepts CN clerics. Luthic doesn't. And what is the most common alignment of half-orcs? Chaotic

Am i being Rules Lawyered ? Last i recall DM,s are greater than the gods . I CHOOSE to make Luthic a nicer option for Half Orc players .

[Tzardok]

That's your right in your own game. But your original point was "Luthic is a nicer god for half-orcs", not "In my games Luthic is nicer", and you can't expect people to just accept your house rules or headcanons as gospel.

As for Tharizdun? Look him up. He's exceedingly famous. And in all pre-4e sources utterly unconcerned with Law or Chaos. The only thing he cares about is causing the end of all things.

[ShurikVch]

Gruumsh at least accepts CN clerics. Luthic doesn't.
Which variant of canon you're speaking there?
In the Faiths and Pantheons - Gruumsh accepts CN, but Luthic accepts both CN and LN
In the Monster Mythology - Luthic allows only Evil, but Gruumsh allows only LE


And what is the most common alignment of half-orcs? Chaotic (any).
Actually, Orcs were LE in both 1E and 2E
Even in the TSR Trading Cards (1991), both Orc and Orog are LE
In the Dragon Quest, Orcs are just Evil, because monsters there weren't differed by Chaos/Law
Only in the Basic rules Orcs were Chaotic: C in Rules Cyclopedia (monsters there weren't differed by Evil/Good), and CE in basic rules book edited by Eric Holmes

[Tzardok]

Which variant of canon you're speaking there?
In the Faiths and Pantheons - Gruumsh accepts CN, but Luthic accepts both CN and LN
In the Monster Mythology - Luthic allows only Evil, but Gruumsh allows only LE

In the Living Greyhawk Deities document, Luthic is listed as Neutral Evil, with no specific rules regarding clerical alignment. That means that she follows the usual clerical alignment restrictions: only one step removed, and no TN unless the deity itself is TN. So Luthic's clerics can be LE, NE or CE. The description in Faiths and Pantheons is obviously a printing error; notice how her clerical alignments there are given as LN, NE, CN? What kind of deity accepts such disjointed alignments?


Actually, Orcs were LE in both 1E and 2E
Even in the TSR Trading Cards (1991), both Orc and Orog are LE
In the Dragon Quest, Orcs are just Evil, because monsters there weren't differed by Chaos/Law
Only in the Basic rules Orcs were Chaotic: C in Rules Cyclopedia (monsters there weren't differed by Evil/Good), and CE in basic rules book edited by Eric Holmes

I said half-orcs, not orcs. Half-orcs in 3.x are typically Chaotic (any). It says so in the frigging Player's Handbook: they inherit the chaotic tendencies of the orc parent, but the human not-tendecy to any alignment on the Good-Evil-scale.
And even if, we are talking about 3.5 half-orcs. What alignment they or orcs in general in older editions had is, frankly, irrelevant.

[Darg]

It's in the description of the darkness spell, of course:

"Normally" in this sentence means "under normal circumstances", to contrast the circumstances caused by the spell. If you still believe that darkvision overcomes that, then tell me: why dies the creature with darkvision still suffer the miss chance that is explicitely caused by it being too dark to see clearly?
Edit: Furthermore, there is this ability mentioned under devils:

The description of Darkvision lacks this rider, and anyway, devils have Darkvision on top of this, do why would they need it if Darkvision already could see in magic darkness.
Now, what does Deeper Darkness say?

So the difference between darkness and deeper darkness lies in duration and area, not in the quality of darkness. That means that overcoming Darkvision isn't a trait of deeper darkness, but of magical darkness in general.

Because magic. Creatures are granted concealment as normal for shadowy illumination. However, the base rule is that shadowy illumination doesn't conceal you from darkvision. The spell Darkness does not explicitly conflict with this. All it says is that creatures with low-light/darkvision still receive a miss chance not that the creatures are concealed from them. Thus creatures wouldn't be able to hide from another creature with darkvision. The only exception to this is the assassin spell Assassin's Darkness which explicitly removes the ability to see in darkness unless you have the explicit ability to see in magical darkness.

The See in Darkness ability description of devils is a hold over of when in 3.0 Deeper Darkness granted absolute darkness. 3.5 Deeper Darkness is just a wider area darkness spell.

[loky1109]

I don't need any fixed for half-orc. Existed 1st party options are enough.
But at the very beginning of 3.x I gave them free orc weapon proficiency.

[Tzardok]

Because magic. Creatures are granted concealment as normal for shadowy illumination. However, the base rule is that shadowy illumination doesn't conceal you from darkvision. The spell Darkness does not explicitly conflict with this. All it says is that creatures with low-light/darkvision still receive a miss chance not that the creatures are concealed from them. Thus creatures wouldn't be able to hide from another creature with darkvision. The only exception to this is the assassin spell Assassin's Darkness which explicitly removes the ability to see in darkness unless you have the explicit ability to see in magical darkness.

The See in Darkness ability description of devils is a hold over of when in 3.0 Deeper Darkness granted absolute darkness. 3.5 Deeper Darkness is just a wider area darkness spell.

The miss chance is because of the concealment granted by shadowy illumination. If you could see unhindered, you wouldn't have a miss chance. Ergo, you can't see unhindered.

The formulation of Assassin's Darkness even supports this: it says "creatures with Darkvision can't see in this spell. Creatures that are able to see in magical darkness can." Why should it treat those things as seperate if they weren't seperate in the first place? If it were the way you claim it is, the spell would say "creatures with Darkvision can't see in this spell. Other creatures that are able to see in magical darkness can."

[ShurikVch]

The description in Faiths and Pantheons is obviously a printing error; notice how her clerical alignments there are given as LN, NE, CN? What kind of deity accepts such disjointed alignments?
Ilneval - in the same book (and even in the same pantheon);
Sebek - in the same book;
Velsharoon - in the same book;
Yurtrus - in the same book (and, again, in the same pantheon).
Isn't it a bit too many for "a printing error"?
Or is Sune - CG deity who allow LG followers - "a printing error" for you too?


I said half-orcs, not orcs. Half-orcs in 3.x are typically Chaotic (any).
Half-Orcs are Orcs: they never has their own separate chapter in the Monster Manual, but still could be found in it - in the "Orc" article
And 3.X Half-Orcs are "usually Chaotic" only because 3.X Orcs are stated as "usually Chaotic"


It says so in the frigging Player's Handbook: they inherit the chaotic tendencies of the orc parent, but the human not-tendecy to any alignment on the Good-Evil-scale.
Not all of Half-Orcs are descended from Humans...


And even if, we are talking about 3.5 half-orcs. What alignment they or orcs in general in older editions had is, frankly, irrelevant.
Well, to be exact, you said:

And what is the most common alignment of half-orcs? Chaotic (any).
That's certainly not the case for examples Half-Orc characters: despite existence of such notable characters as Krusk or Kauvra, most of Half-Orcs with listed alignments are mostly either NE or LE - with a handful N, LN, NG, and LG examples (one is even Unaligned!)
And if we would concentrate on 3.X only - it would hurt your statement even worse: there would be only 4 examples of CG alignment (3 of which are from video games), 7 - of CN (one of which is from a video game), and 7 - CE (one of which is also Vampire). Considering 9 counter-examples with N alignment, and 4 LN (although one of which is from a video game too), 3 LE, and 3 LG - in the very same 3.X - it looks like Half-Orcs have the same chances to have Chaotic alignment as to don't have it...

[Pugwampy]

The description in Faiths and Pantheons is obviously a printing error; notice how her clerical alignments there are given as LN, NE, CN? What kind of deity accepts such disjointed alignments?



Faiths and Pantheons is where i get my Luthic info from . How is that disjointed ? Its all neutral alignments . Luthic is submissive to Grumsh LN . Luthic does as she pleases and greedy CN . Luthic is selfish and harms others for profit NE .


I prefer the word Shaman . Cleric sounds too civilized.

[Metastachydium]

You dont get a max 20 Strength without the Half Orc.

…or any other +2 STR race, which abound. And full Orc (alongside its variants) goes all the way up to 22.


Am i being Rules Lawyered ? Last i recall DM,s are greater than the gods . I CHOOSE to make Luthic a nicer option for Half Orc players .

But then, you could as well CHOOSE Gruumsh to be a nicer option. Or that the Orc pantheon is not the officvial one. Or… Anything, really.



I said half-orcs, not orcs. Half-orcs in 3.x are typically Chaotic (any). It says so in the frigging Player's Handbook: they inherit the chaotic tendencies of the orc parent, but the human not-tendecy to any alignment on the Good-Evil-scale.
And even if, we are talking about 3.5 half-orcs. What alignment they or orcs in general in older editions had is, frankly, irrelevant.


Half-Orcs are Orcs: they never has their own separate chapter in the Monster Manual, but still could be found in it - in the "Orc" article
And 3.X Half-Orcs are "usually Chaotic" only because 3.X Orcs are stated as "usually Chaotic"


Not all of Half-Orcs are descended from Humans...

I've quoted it upthread, but I'll quote it again for your benefit. As Tzardok did actually point out, their alignment entry is not in the MM, but rather the PHB. It goes thusly:


Alignment: Half-orcs inherit a tendency toward chaos from their orc parents, but, like their human parents, they favor good and evil in equal proportions. Half-orcs raised among orcs and willing to live out their lives with them are usually the evil ones.




I prefer the word Shaman . Cleric sounds too civilized.

This being 3.5, that's a different class, though. (Or two, if you count Spirit Shaman.)

[ShurikVch]

I've quoted it upthread, but I'll quote it again for your benefit. As Tzardok did actually point out, their alignment entry is not in the MM, but rather the PHB. It goes thusly:
Alignment entry for PC race means very very little: it decided by the player (with DM approval, if necessary) - not by the RAW

And, one more time: not all of Half-Orcs are also "Half-Humans" - thus, PHB entry would be even more irrelevant there

[Metastachydium]

Alignment entry for PC race means very very little: it decided by the player (with DM approval, if necessary) - not by the RAW

But if the race happens to be a full Orc, it suddenly isn't decided by the player? Or what's your point there? Half-Orcs are Usually Chaotic (any) or Usually Chaotic Evil (if they live among Orcs), as established by the PHB, whereas full Orcs are Often Chaotic Evil, as established by the MM if you want to follow WotC's official guidelines on either. Otherwise, they are what the player/DM/author of whatever they appear in decides they are.


And, one more time: not all of Half-Orcs are also "Half-Humans" - thus, PHB entry would be even more irrelevant there

Well, they were certainly written up in the PHB as a race with that assumption in mind.

[Troacctid]

And, one more time: not all of Half-Orcs are also "Half-Humans" - thus, PHB entry would be even more irrelevant there
"Half-orc" in 3.5 refers to an individual with mixed human and orc ancestry (and not necessarily a half-and-half mix). Other combinations of 50% orc + 50% some other ancestry are not considered half-orcs.

[Tzardok]

Faiths and Pantheons is where i get my Luthic info from . How is that disjointed ? Its all neutral alignments . Luthic is submissive to Grumsh LN . Luthic does as she pleases and greedy CN . Luthic is selfish and harms others for profit NE .


I prefer the word Shaman . Cleric sounds too civilized.

A) Those are not Luthic's alignments. Luthic's alignment is Neutral Evil. Those are the alignments that Luthic allows her clerics to have. Completely different and leads to:

B) It's disjointed because there are no common borders. I said it before: the normal rule for clerical alignment is: at most one step removed from the god's alignment, and not True Neutral unless the god is True Neutral too. For a Neutral Evil god, that means his clerics can be Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil.

Now, some deities have rules that diverge from those. St. Cuthbert, Chronepsis, and certain depictions of Bahamut and Tiamat for example have stricter restrictions: Lawful Neutral Cuthbert refuses Lawful Evil clerics because he believes Evil people can't help but pervert the law, Bahamut and Tiamat are sworn to Good and Evil respectively and refuse Lawful Neutral clerics, and True Neutral Chronepsis only takes clerics that are True Neutral.
Other deities have wider restrictions. Gond (True Neutral) takes clerics of all alignments because he doesn't care what you invent as long as you are building stuff. Mystra (Neutral Good) takes Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil clerics in addition to Lawful Good, Neutral Good and Chaotic Good ones out of respect for her Lawful Neutral precedessor. Uthgar's alignment (Chaotic Neutral) is completely irrelevant for his clerics because they worship his subordinate animal totems and treat their alignments as "his" for determing their own.

But what all those clerical alignment restrictions have in common is that they are not disparate alignments chosen seemingly at random from the grid. They are always only one step removed from another available alignment. And there's always a lore reason behind why that deity diverges from the usual pattern. Now, is the pattern Luthic allegedly exhibits impossible? No, of course not. I could theoretically imagine some kind of deity concerned with extremes or Incarnum to chose a pattern like that (even though in that case Neutral Good would probably be added). What I can't imagine is that Luthic, a deity whose lore doesn't mention any concerns like that at all, exhibits such a disjointed and weird pattern.

And by the way: you don't need to be Lawful to be submissive. The Chaotic Evil drow god Selvetarm for example is absolutely loyal to Lolth (the only god in that pantheon to be that), and the also Chaotic Evil drow god Keptolo is submissive, even if not loyal. Nor does "doing what you want and being greedy" make you chaotic. Tiamat does as she likes and is a goddess of greed, yet she is Lawful.

[ShurikVch]

I prefer the word Shaman . Cleric sounds too civilized.
This being 3.5, that's a different class, though. (Or two, if you count Spirit Shaman.)
"Shaman" there is colloquial term - not a name of class (just like Miko Miyazaki could become a samurai without taking a single level in any of "Samurai" classes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html))



But if the race happens to be a full Orc, it suddenly isn't decided by the player? Or what's your point there?
No, it's still decided by the player (and, occasionally, DM)
"Alignment:" line is for monsters; any important character (be it PC - or even NPC, if they play a role of at least some importance in the story) can conform to those tendencies - or defy them


Well, they were certainly written up in the PHB as a race with that assumption in mind.
There are a number of ways to count as Human without really being one: from the Human Blood and Human Heritage feats to optional rules in Races of Destiny. Just think about how variable can be the "final result"...



"Half-orc" in 3.5 refers to an individual with mixed human and orc ancestry (and not necessarily a half-and-half mix). Other combinations of 50% orc + 50% some other ancestry are not considered half-orcs.
Well, Angriz Ulhargix (Races of the Dragon) is "Male half-blue dragon half-orc wizard 7"; he's still count as Half-Orc - despite the fact there is 25% of Orc at the very most...

[Troacctid]

Well, Angriz Ulhargix (Races of the Dragon) is "Male half-blue dragon half-orc wizard 7"; he's still count as Half-Orc - despite the fact there is 25% of Orc at the very most...
Yes, that falls under "not necessarily a half-and-half mix."

[Tzardok]

No, it's still decided by the player (and, occasionally, DM)
"Alignment:" line is for monsters; any important character (be it PC - or even NPC, if they play a role of at least some importance in the story) can conform to those tendencies - or defy them.

Sure, anybody can defy them. But you can only defy something that exists. These tendencies do exist in the world; they are part of the lore. The fact that some characters - wether PC or NPC doesn't matter - don't conform is irrelevant.

To use an analogy: what you are doing is claiming that drow don't have a tendency to Evil because we have good examples like Driz'zt.

[ShurikVch]

Sure, anybody can defy them. But you can only defy something that exists. These tendencies do exist in the world; they are part of the lore. The fact that some characters - wether PC or NPC doesn't matter - don't conform is irrelevant.

To use an analogy: what you are doing is claiming that drow don't have a tendency to Evil because we have good examples like Driz'zt.
In-world, Drow inhabiting certain locations with an established culture (which can be Evil- or Good-dominant)
Show me a single location where majority of population consist of Half-Orcs

[Tzardok]

Irrelevant. Drow have an inborn tendency to evil in most settings, just like half-orcs have an inborn tendency to chaos. If you don't like that, you can make it so that alignment tendecies don't exist in your setting, or that they are much less influential like in Eberron (which, by the way, does have with the Shadow Marches a location where half-orcs are the majority and most of them are chaotic), but that doesn't give you the right to dictate canon to other people.

I especially find it weird that first you made a post "Actually orcs have been lawful all the time" and now you go "alignment tendecies aren't a thing". Don't you think that's contradictory?

[ShurikVch]

Irrelevant. Drow have an inborn tendency to evil in most settings
If it really was so - then cult of Eilistraee couldn't exist
Most of Drow settlements are just dominated by cults of Evil deities (be it Lolth, or some others)
Don't confuse the dominant culture in the society with "inborn tendency"


If you don't like that, you can make it so that alignment tendecies don't exist in your setting, or that they are much less influential like in Eberron (which, by the way, does have with the Shadow Marches a location where half-orcs are the majority and most of them are chaotic)
"Majority"? :smallconfused:
Actually, there are mere 7% of Half-Orcs - while "full" Orcs are 55%, Humans - 25%, and Goblins - 10%...


I especially find it weird that first you made a post "Actually orcs have been lawful all the time" and now you go "alignment tendecies aren't a thing". Don't you think that's contradictory?
No, it isn't contradictory: racial alignment tendencies could exist for a societies (be it cultural - or truly "inborn"); but for a single character - only if they get cursed or something like that...

[Tzardok]

If it really was so - then cult of Eilistraee couldn't exist[

What about the word "tendency" is unclear? It means that you tend to one thing. It is not absolute, nor can't some people overcome it. That's the whole point of Eilistraee's dogma: overcoming your worst impulses.


Most of Drow settlements are just dominated by cults of Evil deities (be it Lolth, or some others)
Don't confuse the dominant culture in the society with "inborn tendency"

Lolth has crossbred the drow with demons. They have an inborn tendency. Just read the article in Dragon Magazine on drow. Unborn drow strangle their siblings in the womb.
And even if, what does it matter? Common alignment lines in racial or monster descriptions do not care how tendecies to alignments come to be, only that they are there.



No, it isn't contradictory: racial alignment tendencies could exist for a societies (be it cultural - or truly "inborn"); but for a single character - only if they get cursed or something like that...

Of course it's contradictory! We have talked all the time about half-orcs in general, not about specific examples!
I say "Half-orcs are generally chaotic."
You say "Akshually, orcs used to be lawful."
I say "I was talking about half-orcs. And they are generally chaotic; it says so in the Player's Handbook."
You say"Uh-uh, it's player's choice what alignment a character has. What the Player's Handbook says doesn't matter."
And so on. And now you come up with some "Akshually, I was always talking about individuals" balderdash when that is obviously not what you said before!

If you can't argue in good faith I won't talk to you anymore. Good day sir!

[Metastachydium]

"Shaman" there is colloquial term - not a name of class (just like Miko Miyazaki could become a samurai without taking a single level in any of "Samurai" classes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html))

I figured. I was merely being facetious because 3.5 is insane and I love that.


No, it's still decided by the player (and, occasionally, DM)
"Alignment:" line is for monsters; any important character (be it PC - or even NPC, if they play a role of at least some importance in the story) can conform to those tendencies - or defy them

At his point, yeah, I'm very firmly with Tzardok in having not the faintest idea what point are you even trying to make. Half-Orcs differ from full Orcs in that they can be any alignment other than official sources specify to be the norm for them when used as PCs, just like full Orcs can?! I honestly don't follow.


Lolth has crossbred the drow with demons. They have an inborn tendency. Just read the article in Dragon Magazine on drow. Unborn drow strangle their siblings in the womb.

…
Was there a contest of "can you make these cringe buggers even more cringe" at WotC back when or what is this even supposed to be?!

[Tzardok]

The issue the article was published in was the 'Book of Vile Darkness' theme issue; you tell me. :smallamused:

There were other pearls in there, like pregnancy (and especially the fratricides happening during it) feeling frigging amazing for drow, because otherwise no drow woman would accept such a state of weakness and vulnerability.

[Metastachydium]

The issue the article was published in was the 'Book of Vile Darkness' theme issue; you tell me. :smallamused:

Ah, BovD, the book that gave us "Human, except slightly worse and Always Stupid Evil" in terms of races, and then so much more! Yeah, I suddenly understand everything.


There were other pearls in there, like pregnancy (and especially the fratricides happening during it) feeling frigging amazing for drow, because otherwise no drow woman would accept such a state of weakness and vulnerability.

This is one of those moments when I wish I had a face and a palm, y'see.