DM says game might go to 20th level; I like spellcasters and wizards don’t exist!!!

[Klorox]

What class is my best option?

Cleric (arcana maybe)?
Warlock?
Sorcerer?
(Edit) Bard?


The party consists of a barbarian, a tempest cleric, a druid and a ranger.

[Silly Name]

Bards are pretty versatile, and depending on subclass pick you could easily shore up anything you feel is missing from the party (although, it sounds like it's pretty well-rounded). A Lore Bard is probably the closest you can get to a typical wizard if you wanted to be something of the sorts.

[CTurbo]

Yes I'd go Bard too as your party is lacking a Charisma face character and Bards are awesome anyway.

If it has to be chosen from your list then go Sorcerer.

[Mastikator]

Lore bard, know more spells than sorcerer, use magical secrets to swipe some sweet wizard unique spells.

[Klorox]

If it has to be chosen from your list then go Sorcerer.

It doesn’t need to come from my list. I just totally forgot about bards while posting this. Thanks!

I’ll edit the original post.

[JonBeowulf]

Another vote for Lore Bard.

[Schwann145]

Do you mention wizards because that's definitely what you'd play if you could? Then go Lore Bard.

Otherwise, I say go Sorcerer. Metamagic is more fun than Bardic Inspiration if the goal is to feel like a spellcaster.

[Klorox]

100% going lore bard. Thanks all.

[Eldariel]

Arcana Cleric is amazing (like absolutely ridonkolous) on level 20, but it's really weak comparatively on Tier 3. So it depends on the starting level; if you play through the whole Tier 3, definitely Bard or Druid (or Tasha's Sorc, though Bard is the strongest on the back of Magical Secreting Wizard-spells of course), but if you get to start on Tier 4, do give Arcana Cleric a whirl as it's a fun class (especially if you take like Mark of the Sentinel Human to get Counterspell, Shield, etc. to boot).

[CTurbo]

One fun sounding character concept that I've seen around here and am interested in is the Lore Bard that's pretending to be a Wizard. All you have to do is take Ritual Caster Wizard and pick up some of the typical Wizard spells with your Magical Secrets.

[KorvinStarmast]

I played a Lore Bard 1-20. There are a number of posts I made here at GitP, when I had analysis~paralysis on what spells to take with magical secrets. Some great discussions and help were offered here. I'll find the threads.
EDIT:
Here are the threads.
(Lvl 18) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?638580-Analysis-Paralysis-strikes-again-18th-level-magical-secret-what-spell-besides-wish&highlight=Analysis-Paralysis+strikes+again)
(lvl 10) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623740-Magical-Secrets-at-Level-10-what-to-choose-now-that-Tasha-s-has-added-some-options&highlight=Magical+Secrets+at+Level+10%3A+what+to+c hoose+now+that+Tasha%27s+has+added+some+options.)

(level 14) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?634447-Analysis-Paralysis-Anonymous-LoreBard-lvl-14-2d-Magical-Secret-(I-m-going-nuts))

Mind you, I focused on support spells. There are folks who take fireball at level 6 with magical secrets and never regret it. But there are so many other choices ... Ludic Savant pointed out that reaction spells might be useful since so many bard spells are concentration in the first place. That spell to reduce elemental damage is but one example. (Can't recall its name at the moment)


Absolutely don't feel you need take a high level spell.

If you have something like force cage then you won't get much better for a 7th level slot. Find levels where you are not quite happy with the spells you have or look for a niche to fill.

Take banishment for example. Do you have anything as good for control of a small number of targets? Do you have anything else keyed to a charisma save? And if you want something to use your 6th level spell slots on it scales really well.

Think how many times per day you get to make use of each magical secret. You have more spell slots of level 4+ than you do of level 6+. It isn't a waste to pick a spell you can use more.


About bard spells:
1. As we went up in level and my Spell save DC improved, we discovered that little old "Blindness/Deafness" was very effective, and was up-castable.
2. Freedom of Movement cast on one (or more) of your melee party members is very frequently a brilliant choice.
3. Foresight; fantastic support spell that I usually cast on a martial character.
4. Dissonant Whispers: kept it well into Tier 3 for use, Feather Fall was still on the char sheet at level 20.
Cantrips I chose: Light, vicious mockery, Prestidigntation, Minor Illusion.
If you play Tasha's I'd suggest picking Slow spell (it was allowed in our campaign) but if Tasha's isn't in the mix, pick up Slow with Magical Secrets at 6. It is tactically very useful. (but I found Conjure Animals to be more fun more often in more different situations).
5. If the party pools resources, Heroe's Feast is a nice buff in Tier 3 and 4. It is a bit expensive in terms of material components. (And I think that's a Tasha's bard addition)
6. Dimension Door. So useful. (It's what I usually had on Contingency)
7. Prismatic Spray: a heck of a crowd killer, but man oh man do you roll a lot of dice!)
As to Magical Secrets
3, 5, 7, 9

Conjure Animals(a) , Counterspell
(a) Sometimes, conjuring up a bunch of horses or dire wolves of giant eagles for the party to ride on is fun and can be tactically useful.

Biggy's Hand (b), Wall of Force.
(b) Should have probably taken Telekinesis, but sometimes you just have to punch someone with a big old fist ..

Simulacrum(c), Contingency(6) (c)
Both have expensive spell components, but have quite a few uses

Wish(d), Shapechange (e)
(d) Lets you cast more or less any spell of level 8 and below once per day. One of my favorite uses of it, though, was to cast Earthquake tactically.
I made a permanent mansion and a perm teleport circle with the old "cast it for a year" once the character retired and began to run a shipping company.
(e) fell in love with an ancient gold dragon, and thus want to be able to shape change as we sing "fly me to the moon"

There are a lot of other good choices. (DM and I knew about Sim/Wish cheese and we did not go with that; used Sim for other reasons, to include looking after the Bard's business interests and then baby sitting ...)

For CT Turbo:
Interesting idea. Use one of the skill expertise slots on Investigation and one on Arcana; handy.
I'd guess that Stealth and Deception might be the other expertise slots? :smallsmile:

[RogueJK]

While I agree that Lore Bard with Ritual Caster Wizard is about as close to a Wizard as you can get without being one... Keep in mind that, in a world without wizards, there won't be any wizard spellbooks or spell scrolls. So talk to your DM about whether you'd even be able to find/access Wizard Ritual spells to copy down!

And an Aberrant Mind or Clockwork Soul Sorcerer can also be fairly Wizardly, with their ability to not only pull from a fairly similar spell list, but also the ability to swap some of their subclass-specific spells for Wizard spells not normally on the Sorcerer list. (Plus, the fact that these two subclasses get 10 additional spells known helps to shore up the Sorcerer's primary downside of their very limited number of spells, resulting in them having a total number of spells known similar to that of the Bard.)

Either one would work well in this particular party, covering not only the Arcane Spellcasting gap, but as CHA-based casters also functioning as the Party Face.

[Skrum]

Is the question the best way to build a wizard without using wizard?

Well, sorcerer has a lot of the same spells, and the new lunar sorc gets a whole pile of bonus spells that massively increases their spells known. Throw in a spell-granting background like one of the Strixhaven options and a race that gives spells, and you'll put together a full caster with a very large swiss army knife of a spell list.

I mean, I'm assuming you like wizards cause you like having a large toolbox, but maybe I'm wrong?

Lunar sorc is probably the most wizardly in the sense that it's going to have a lot of the same spells and play similarly moment to moment, but if you're open to more of a "wizard in spirit" I recommend the moon druid. The crazy amount of options moon druids have makes them extremely adaptable and tactical, which maybe will scratch a similar itch as wizard.

[NecessaryWeevil]

You haven't really given us an objective or criteria beyond "be a spellcaster," so "best" is pretty difficult to define.

[sithlordnergal]

Can you play a Creation Bard? Cause if so, I highly recommend it. Its an excellent Bard Subclass, and that Performance of Creation can be very powerful

[Yspoch]

Depending on the reasons, why the DM banned the wizard class, it might not be in your best interest to nonetheless build a "wizard", even if under another name. Maybe have a talk with the DM, before deciding on a specific build.

[Klorox]

Depending on the reasons, why the DM banned the wizard class, it might not be in your best interest to nonetheless build a "wizard", even if under another name. Maybe have a talk with the DM, before deciding on a specific build.

I'm building this character with the DM's guidance, and he loves the idea I've come up with.

It's a homebrew world where the study of magic has been lost to time. My character has learned of the study of magic and is an Indiana Jones type of character who's obsessed with learning the secrets of wizardry.

Mechanically, I'm considering starting with one level of arcana cleric, because I love utility cantrips and it fits the idea. Another idea is a draconic sorcerer dip so I'll have some AC. I could also just go straight bard.

[RogueJK]

Mechanically, I'm considering starting with one level of arcana cleric, because I love utility cantrips and it fits the idea. Another idea is a draconic sorcerer dip so I'll have some AC. I could also just go straight bard.

Arcana Cleric's boost to AC is significantly better than Draconic Sorcerer.

Draconic Sorcerer's natural armor AC boost is merely +1 over Studded Leather light armor, which as a Bard you're already proficient with. Sure, you could also burn all your 1st level slots on Shield, but you have better uses for those slots, and that's only a +5 AC boost for ~4 rounds per day.

Whereas Arcana Cleric's Medium Armor and Shield proficiency gains you ~5 AC over Studded Leather all day long, without requiring expending any spell slots. And importantly, it also means you don't have to spend ASIs on maxing out DEX, being able to settle for just starting with a 14 DEX and then devoting your ASIs to boosting CHA or picking up feats instead.

In addition to the two free Wizard utility cantrips, Arcana Cleric gets you access to fantastic Cleric spells like Bless and Guidance, which allows the support-oriented Bard to be an even better support character. And you can take Healing Word as a Cleric spell instead of Bard, to have emergency healing without tying up one of your Bard spells known. Grabbing Ritual Detect Magic as an always-prepared Arcana domain spell would also be very appropriate for this magic-seeking character.


So I'd skip Draconic Sorcerer, and either dip 1 level into Arcana Cleric for better AC and a bunch of useful additional spells, or else just go straight Lore Bard (potentially grabbing the Moderately Armored feat if you want a better AC without multiclassing).


Something like this:
Half Elf Arcana Cleric 1/Lore Bard 6
STR 8
DEX 13+1
CON 13+1
INT 11
WIS 13
CHA 15+2
Cleric Cantrips: Guidance, Mending, Light
Arcana Cantrips: Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion
Bard Cantrips: Vicious Mockery, Mage Hand, Message
Cleric Spells: Detect Magic*, Magic Missile*, Bless, Healing Word
Bard Spells: Identify, Silvery Barbs, Comprehend Languages, Dissonant Whispers, Knock, Heat Metal, Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, Leomund's Tiny Hut
Magical Secrets: Counterspell, Fireball
Background Proficiencies: Thieves Tools, Cartographer's Tools, Investigation, History
Cleric Skills: Arcana*, Persuasion, Insight
Bard Skills: Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception, Deception
Bard Expertise: Investigation, Arcana
ASI: 18 CHA/12 INT at Bard 4; then plan for either Warcaster or Skill Expert (14 WIS) at 8 and 20 CHA at 12

You've got a bunch of support spells, some of the most iconic Wizard spells, and a ton of utility spells/cantrips, including several of the best Rituals without requiring finding hidden Ritual spells with Ritual Caster. You also have a slew of archeology/exploration-related skills, along with Face skills, and can fill in as the party Rogue too.

But understand that with such a support/utility-focused character, you're not going to be contributing huge amounts of damage in combat, outside of the secondary damage from Vicious Mockery and the occasional Fireball, Dissonant Whispers, Magic Missile, or juicy heavily armored Heat Metal target... That's not your role. Your primary role in combat is to make all the other PCs better at contributing damage by boosting them with Bless, saving them with Vicious Mockery/Silvery Barbs/Counterspell/Healing Word/Cutting Words, and taking enemies out of the fight with Suggestion/Hypnotic Pattern.

If that doesn't appeal to you, you can tweak it to be more damage-oriented by swapping in some more combat-focused spells (such as taking Summon Undead instead Counterspell), and either going with a race like MotM Kobold that can get a racial CHA-based arcane damage cantrip like Chill Touch or Fire Bolt, or going with VHuman/CLineage and taking Magic Initiate Sorcerer at Level 1 for a couple CHA-based damage cantrips.

[thorr-kan]

Multiclass Warlock/Artificer. Go tome pact and find a way to scam Find Familiar. Your cast spells, you enchant items, you have a spellbook, and you have a familiar.

You're a wizard, 'arry.