Hexadin vs Sorcadin

[youraveragegame]

As the title would suggest I'm wondering about what route would be more optimal. Thinking of going V.Human and with a Paladin 6/Sorcerer(Subclass up in the air) or Hexblade X

However, I'm struggling in deciding which would actually be better given that both have pros and cons.

[Skrum]

Funny, I just made a post about this in another thread.

IMO, the only way hexblade makes sense is as paladin 6 hexblade 1 sorcerer X, and that's only if your table doesn't really pay attention to somatic component requirements and you can cast the shield spell while your hands are occupied with weapons and shields (spending an attunement slot on ruby of the warmage, if available, also works).

If the DM is a stickler for spellcasting components and you can't get a ruby, I would not recommend bothering with hexblade. In that case, paladin 6 sorcerer X would be the way to go, taking war caster and focusing on spells that don't need a saving throw (there's plenty of them). Even then... It's frankly not obviously better than straight paladin. You get a better spell list and more slots, but worse class features.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Why not both? (https://tabletopbuilds.com/flagship-build-oath-of-the-watchers-paladin/) That says to go Oath of the Watchers 7 / Hexblade 2 / Divine Soul 11, taking Paladin at 1st, Warlock at 2nd, getting to Paladin 7 asap, one more Warlock, then finish with Sorcerer. That's considered by that community to be the most optimal, flagship Paladin build. That uses a staff arcane spellcasting focus that's also a quarterstaff, so no need for Warcaster early.

[Dalinar]

Here's me thinking through what I said in the UA thread again (since that sort of became a sidebar about this anyway).

If your table allows Custom Lineage, which is capable of starting with an 18 CHA, that's a huge bump in favor of adding Hexblade to your Paladin. You did say you wanted to be VHuman, so I'll work under that assumption for the moment.

Assuming you start with 16 STR anyway, you probably want to wait until you have a higher CHA to take that dip, which will probably be Paladin 6 at the earliest (technically 4, but do you really want to delay Extra Attack and Aura of Protection?). If you want to go full Paladin for your non-Hexblade levels, I wouldn't take more than 2 Hexblade levels, assuming you're expecting the character to reach level 20.

Your progression there is probably Polearm Master for your VHuman feat, Paladin up to at least 6 (CHA bump at level 4). You'd have to decide from there when to take the Hexblade dip. If your subclass has a good level 7 aura (Watchers, Ancients, etc) that's probably worth it. Bumping CHA to 20 at level 8 makes the Hexblade dip more valuable, arguably worth getting first. Level 9 is your third-level spellcasting, arguably worth it. Level 10 is Aura of Courage, which might be worth it if you're running into fear effects a lot. Level 11 is Improved Divine Smite and another third-level slot. That's probably the latest I'd stay in Paladin unless I was taking it to 20. My suspicion is that the 6-8 range is probably the best time to take the dip.

I would not go Paladin 6/Hexblade X. It's pretty obvious why you'd take Hexblade 1, and Hexblade 2 brings another Pact Magic slot and invocations, some of which are quite useful (Agonizing Blast gives you a potent ranged cantrip, Devil's Sight can be useful, Mask of Many Faces and Misty Visions are good for shenanigans). Hexblade 3 is of course your pact boons and second-level spellcasting; the former are mostly going to be utility for you, but if you find yourself using the Pact slots for smiting a lot, that seems good. Hexblade 4 is an ASI, and if you don't have 20 Charisma, I could see that becoming worth it, and then Hexblade 5 afterwards for even bigger pact magic and another invocation. That's probably as much Hexblade as I'd consider. Hexblade 6 doesn't seem worth it at all to me; I'd either go back to Paladin or start taking a third class instead.

---

As for Sorcadin, the logic for when to dip out is pretty similar, but unlike Hexblade the case for staying in Sorcerer for the majority of your career is much stronger. Smite harder and faster, use Quickened Spell to weaponize your bonus action, and so forth.

[Mastikator]

At hexblade 3 you can grab improved pact weapon, and switch to heavy weapons. At hex 4 you can grab GWM, which combines well with the hexblade's curse. Using a greatsword/maul will enable you to not have to worry about the somatic component of spells like shield since you can hold a sword in one hand as an item.

[RogueJK]

Overall, there are three solid paths:

Paladin 6/Sorcerer X: Good for generating higher level smiting and upcasting slots, since the spellcaster levels stack

Paladin 6/Hexblade X: Good for CHA-SAD melee with a 2H weapon, and for crit-fishing for double critical smites (Divine + Eldritch) with Darkness+Devil's Sight+Elven Accuracy, but slower spell slot progression

Paladin 6/Hexblade 1/Sorcerer X: Good for CHA-SAD melee with a 1H weapon, while still generating higher level smiting slots



At hexblade 3 you can grab improved pact weapon, and switch to heavy weapons.

A Hexblade 3 can use a heavy Pact Weapon even without the Improved Pact Weapon invocation. That comes with Blade Pact in general, not the IPW Invocation specifically. IPW is just required to use short/long bows and light/heavy crossbows as Pact Weapons.

[Aimeryan]

Why not both? (https://tabletopbuilds.com/flagship-build-oath-of-the-watchers-paladin/) That says to go Oath of the Watchers 7 / Hexblade 2 / Divine Soul 11, taking Paladin at 1st, Warlock at 2nd, getting to Paladin 7 asap, one more Warlock, then finish with Sorcerer. That's considered by that community to be the most optimal, flagship Paladin build. That uses a staff arcane spellcasting focus that's also a quarterstaff, so no need for Warcaster early.

Hah, was going to post this myself. I prefer the Undead variant with the two early Warlock levels for Agonising Repelling Eldritch Blast, allowing for escaping the deathpit that is melee as soon as possible - but the Hexblade version does get Shield and the Auras earlier.

@youraveragegame: The strength of the Paladin class is all in the Auras. The damage is weaker than Barb and Fighter - Smite doesn't hold up like people think (https://nystulsmagicwebsite.wordpress.com/2022/04/04/paladins-as-intended-dont-work/) (its nova is good if everything lines up, which is what people remember when they think of it). The spells are garbage, with the exception of Bless. The defences are alright, but melee is a massive multiplier on damage taken so tanky casters are often far more survivable (ironically).

Essentially, if you are going Paladin then mechanically the optimal choice is grab the auras and bail for caster classes that can don't have to go into melee. You can maximise Cha for the Aura without penalty because you are not reliant on Str and Feats (PAM, GWM). Large enemy groups can be AoE'd (damage and/or CC). Small enemy groups can be split up with battlefield control. Single enemies are quite easily kept at ranged with difficult terrain and knockback (Repelling Blast is amazing here). Worse-case scenario with nasty stuff making it into melee you are still tankier than the average Paladin (shield + Shield is a 7AC lead over a 2H Paladin) - and you'll likely have more HP because you haven't lost it by willingly heading into melee beforehand.

[Hael]

There are a number of constraints you have to consider. First is what level are you playing at. A lot of hexadin/sorcadin stuff doesn't really work that well 1-8 (eg there are more painful levels than simply the monoclass or a simple hexblade dip). The later things go, the more feats are available, and the more the hybridization really starts to be useful (eg if you are starting at lvl 13, going triclass starts to really make sense).

Then you need to decide if you are going 1h weapon/shield, blastlock or 2h (its harder to make this work and usually needs hexblade 3+).

Generally speaking, I think its almost always worth to get at least 1 lvl of hexblade. Eg 1hexblade/X paladin is almost always better than Paladin X except at lvl 5-6.

The rule of thumb in this is that more levels of paladin compared to warlock == more defense. You get more auras, you get more hitpoints, the paladin spell progression tends to produce defensive spells. On the other hand if you go more warlock, you are picking up big offensive upgrades. You are getting 2h damage invocations, or eldritch blast upgrades, and you are picking up extra recharging smite fuel as well as much more offensive spells (including gish staples like shadow of moil). There are hexadin builds that start with the standard Pamlock till say lvl 12 and then go paladin the rest of the way (a 12/8 split is a very potent gish build for instance) to shore up defenses.

Sorcerer levels are kinda in between defense/offense and utility. You actually don't get as much smite fuel as you would think relative to standard paladin, instead what you are getting is a spell list that solves most of the paladins shortcomings. Whether its range or the lack of reaction spells or ranged cantrips, or CC spells. And of course the divine soul sorcerer gives the highly synergistic cleric spell list (which is still IMO optimal relative to clockwork soul for a sorcadin).

[sithlordnergal]

So, both options are pretty optimal, but they have some unique strengths and weaknesses:

---Hexadin---

Pros:

Excellent Short Rest resources, letting you adventure longer without Long Resting
Hex Warrior lets you use Charisma for your main attacks
Hexblade's Curse increases your damage, increases crit range, and gives you some temp HP when a creature is killed
You have higher HP
Access to powerful Invocations
Access to Eldritch Blast, which is a powerful ranged cantrip, especially if you take Agonizing Blast
Pact of the Blade is wonderful for a Hexadin since you can turn a magic weapon into your Pact Weapon, and have it use Charisma
If you reach level 5 in Warlock, you can get Eldritch Smite for a supernova where you stack Divine Smite and Eldritch Smite together


Cons:

Very limited resources during an encounter.*
Hexblade spells have significant crossover with Paladin spells.
I tend to find the Sorcerer spell list is stronger than the Warlock spell list
You miss out on some really handy Metamagic options that mesh well with the Paladin
You're capped at 5th level spell slots



*Yes, you get your Warlock spell slots back on a Short Rest, but that doesn't change the fact that you're stuck with two Spell Slots until Warlock 11. Meaning if you go for the traditional Paladin 6 / Warlock X split, you're stuck with a grand total of 8 spell slots until level 17. It's gonna hurt if you're in a longer encounter, or you can't take Short Rests


---Sorcadin---

Pros:

More resources per encounter
Higher level spell slots
Access to a stronger spell list, and potentially the Cleric spell list*
Access to Metamagic**
Access to powerful self buff spells and AoEs at level 5 Sorcerer
Have more spell slots then a Hexblade


*In general, I find the Sorcerer spell list to be a lot stronger then the base Warlock spell list. It has access to buffs like Haste, protection spells like Shield and Absorb Elements, AoEs like Fireball, and control spells like Slow.

**Certain Metamagic options mesh incredibly well with the Paladin. Twinned Spell lets you target two creatures with things like Shield of Faith, Divine Favor, or Heroism, while Quickened Spell lets you make a regular attack and follow it up with a spell as a Bonus Action


Cons:

Purely Long Rest dependent.*
Lower HP
You are MAD
You're stuck with regular ranged cantrips for damage, which are still good but not as good as Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast


*You're going to have a LOT more resources that you can draw from during an encounter, but you don't really get anything from a Short Rest. So you'll need to be very careful with how you use those resources throughout the adventuring day.

-----

The two really come down to if you want more At-Will resources, or more resources over the course of an adventuring day.

[Chronos]

Hexblade 1 is good enough that, from an optimization point of view, you have to work really hard to explain why any given paladin isn't taking at least one level of hexblade. Levels beyond that are good, but you can debate either way, but that first level is solid gold.

Which of course still leaves the possibility, as others have mentioned, of 1 hexblade level and the rest in sorcerer.

[Witty Username]

Why not both? (https://tabletopbuilds.com/flagship-build-oath-of-the-watchers-paladin/) That says to go Oath of the Watchers 7 / Hexblade 2 / Divine Soul 11, taking Paladin at 1st, Warlock at 2nd, getting to Paladin 7 asap, one more Warlock, then finish with Sorcerer. That's considered by that community to be the most optimal, flagship Paladin build. That uses a staff arcane spellcasting focus that's also a quarterstaff, so no need for Warcaster early.

There is a note on that that you are losing 2 ASIs with that setup.
I do have a note that your not gaining alot from hexblade early.
Delaying hexblade until 5-7th level, may be worth it when your strength-charisma difference is more prononced. And your not delaying extra attack, Aura of protection, or the ASI getting to charisma 18.

Variant human for +1 strength and charisma for a 16/16 split instead. And then paladin 8, can get you PAM, and 20 charisma or room for another feat like say warcaster. Then hexblade for the charisma to damage.
You have a much stronger presence early, do to getting your effects more quickly and level 9 is pretty strong.

This does work better for paladin 11/ hexblade 9 at that point though.
PAM, cha 20 with paladin 8 then hexblade 4 for GWM and pact of the blade. Hexblade 9, then the last 3 levels in paladin.

[Dork_Forge]

Sorcerer, unless your table uses short rests reliably and sometimes makes long resting challenging. You just get more flexibility out of the Sorcerer route with Metamagic and the main appeal(s) of Hexblade aren't really that compelling:

- Cha SAD, but you need at least a 15 Str and to be competent enough to get to the dip in the first place (assuming you wanted those 6 Paladin first), so you're not SAD at all.
- Hexblade's Curse is fun for damage calculations, but it's single target, once per short rest, and the damage frankly sucks in most situations.
- Shield on a Hexblade dip is just over rated, especially here, you won't have the slots for casting it frequently if you intend to actually cast and it's pretty incompatible with sword and board.

But more importantly:

Why do you want to MC? What are you trying to get out of it? Access to spells? More slots? More features?

The Paladin chassis is pretty heavily tied to wanting more Paladin, or equivalent, levels to function. You should have a good reason to MC if you are wanting 'optimal.'

[Witty Username]

Hidden option, straight paladin is definitely a thing to consider.
Paladin has one of the smoother progressions among classes and has good stuff at most levels.

[Dork_Forge]

Hidden option, straight paladin is definitely a thing to consider.
Paladin has one of the smoother progressions among classes and has good stuff at most levels.

Dexadin, in particular, is a fantastic option.

[Aimeryan]

There is a note on that that you are losing 2 ASIs with that setup.
I do have a note that your not gaining alot from hexblade early.
Delaying hexblade until 5-7th level, may be worth it when your strength-charisma difference is more prononced. And your not delaying extra attack, Aura of protection, or the ASI getting to charisma 18.



Sorcerer, unless your table uses short rests reliably and sometimes makes long resting challenging. You just get more flexibility out of the Sorcerer route with Metamagic and the main appeal(s) of Hexblade aren't really that compelling:

- Cha SAD, but you need at least a 15 Str and to be competent enough to get to the dip in the first place (assuming you wanted those 6 Paladin first), so you're not SAD at all.
- Hexblade's Curse is fun for damage calculations, but it's single target, once per short rest, and the damage frankly sucks in most situations.
- Shield on a Hexblade dip is just over rated, especially here, you won't have the slots for casting it frequently if you intend to actually cast and it's pretty incompatible with sword and board.


Yeah, the Hexblade pickup for Hex Warrior really only gains ground once you have your Feats (PAM + GWM for 2H) and have started at least pumping CHA (no benefit if CHA hasn't been pumped yet!).
With a level 1 Feat race you are looking at character level 7 for 1H Pal 6/Hexblade 1 (PAM, +CHA), character level 9 for 1H Pal 8/Hexblade 1 focusing on maxing aura first (PAM, +CHA, +CHA), or character level 10 for 2H Pal 6/Hexblade 4 (PAM, GWM, +CHA).

If you mix it with Sorc for level 3 Spells and go Pal 7 for something like Watchers then you could be looking at character level 13 before Hexblade's Hex Warrior comes into play (Pal 7, Sorc 5, Hex 1), or even level 15 if you need Hex 3 for Pact Weapon (2H).

Hex Warrior works great if you start at higher level, otherwise you aren't really gaining much from it for most of the campaign. That said, the Shield pickup for 2H Paladins is still amazing if not getting it from Sorc.

---

The better choice as I see it is to go the Undead Warlock variant, which skips the need for PAM + GWM by jumping out of melee altogether (see previous post for more details). In this case you pump Cha early maximising the Aura as soon as you get it, which is the real point to go Paladin at all. Even better, you cover the casters/ranged with it at near full-uptime - which are the characters that best gain from it due to Concentration spells and lower HP.

EDIT: Clarity on which builds need which levels.

[RogueJK]

Yeah, the Hexblade pickup for Hex Warrior really only gains ground once you have your Feats (PAM + GWM) and have started pumping CHA. With a level 1 Feat race you are looking at character level 9 if Pal 8/Hexblade 1, or character level 10 if Pal 6/Hexblade 4. If you mix it with Sorc and go Pal 7 then you can be looking at character level 13 before Hexblade's Hex Warrior comes into play (Pal 7, Sorc 5, Hex 1).

Hex Warrior only works with GWM if you take at least 3 levels of Warlock and go Blade Pact to gain a Pact Weapon. Hexblades can only use CHA to attack with 1H weapons and Pact Weapons. So 1 level of Hexblade doesn't do a PAM+GWM Paladin any good, but it does work with a PAM (only) Paladin, if you use a 1H staff/spear and shield.

The typical points for dipping or switching to another class on a Paladin are after Paladin 2 or Paladin 6, or possibly after Paladin 7 (depending on the Oath). The same holds true for a Hexblade 1 dip.

[JonBeowulf]

Dexadin, in particular, is a fantastic option.

Hopefully a very short derail: Which is the best Dexadin oath? Just the oath, not the entire recipe. I had a blast with a standard human Str/Con/Cha V-Pal (that was supposed to be a throw-away character) and would like to try a Dex build.

[RogueJK]

Hopefully a very short derail: Which is the best Dexadin oath? Just the oath, not the entire recipe.

It works just about as well with any of them, with a few having a very slight edge in specific areas: Ancients if you want to be a switch-hitter or primary archer using Ensnaring Strike and Branding Smite in lieu of Divine Smites with ranged weapon attacks, or Watchers if you want to have an extra high Initiative (Harengon Watchers Dexadin?), or Vengeance if you're some flavor of Elf and want to be able to utilize Elven Accuracy's Triple Advantage more often to fish for Critical Smites.

[Dork_Forge]

Hopefully a very short derail: Which is the best Dexadin oath? Just the oath, not the entire recipe. I had a blast with a standard human Str/Con/Cha V-Pal (that was supposed to be a throw-away character) and would like to try a Dex build.

The Oath doesn't factor into it in a huge way, though if you are using races with fixed ASIs then it more greatly affects things.

I'd have to say either Vengeance for the Elven Accuracy Synergy or Watchers for the insane initiative potential. If the campaign starts low and isn't expected to spend much time 7th level + then Vengeance easy.

[Aimeryan]

Hex Warrior only works with GWM if you take at least 3 levels of Warlock and go Blade Pact to gain a Pact Weapon. Hexblades can only use CHA to attack with 1H weapons and Pact Weapons. So 1 level of Hexblade doesn't do a PAM+GWM Paladin any good, but it does work with a PAM (only) Paladin, if you use a 1H staff/spear and shield.

The typical points for dipping or switching to another class on a Paladin are after Paladin 2 or Paladin 6, or possibly after Paladin 7 (depending on the Oath). The same holds true for a Hexblade 1 dip.

Yeah, if you go 2H (with both PAM + GWM) then you are going to want Hex 3, so you are likely looking at Hex 4 for the ASI before it comes online (the Pal 6/Hex 4 at character level 10 that I mentioned). If you want Watchers aura then you are looking at least Pal 7(+1)/Hex 3(+1), whichever you wish for the ASI, so character level 11. I've edited the post to clarify the breakdowns.

Personally, I don't see much benefit in 1H over going ranged - if you want to be more defensive the best bet is to just get out of melee altogether. That said, if only willing to take a single level dip then Hexblade 1 and not needing GWM does allow a 1H Pal to focus on what they actually do best (Aura via CHA boosting).

Pal 2 doesn't offer much in my opinion. If its for AC for casters then Hexblade dips offers more to Sorcs, while Cleric dips offer more for Wizards. Druids... well. If its for Smite, that isn't worth all that much if you have casting; low level Spell Slots have a lot of competition for casters, and Smite scales too badly to even consider using higher ones - nevermind the whole melee part. Losing two levels of you class progression as a caster needs serious upsides, and Pal 2 isn't it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Dexadin, in particular, is a fantastic option. You just reminded me that I still owe you that Medium Armor Master article. :smalleek: My dexadin went to 17 (Watcher) and then the campaign ended. Feat at level 1 was medium armor master.

I'd have to say either Vengeance for the Elven Accuracy Synergy or Watchers for the insane initiative potential. If the campaign starts low and isn't expected to spend much time 7th level + then Vengeance easy. Our party got spoiled with the initiative boost. When we finished the campaign, and began the next one, a few sessions in two of the players commented on "wait, how are we not winning initiative ... oh, right, that was a paladin deal. :smallbiggrin: