OOTS #1293 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Tvtyrant]

The perfect plan, art imitating traps.

[Zarhan]

I approve of Belkar holding up the beasties so they wouldn't be exposed to supposed acid (at least at first).

[Zhorn]

It's not being cheap
It's being strategic

I approve

[Doug Lampert]

Interesting wasted spell.

Haley is known to have wands of fly, but the spell is touch range so she'd have to fly down to apply it.
V might also have had something.
But who (other than Durkon) actually prepares Mass Resist Acid?

Edited: SRD has Resist Energy, which can be used to resist acid, and which is sometimes worth preparing and with OotS spell renaming to purpose would probably be called "resist acid", if there's a mass version I could see the same thing.

[Shining Wrath]

Serini had a budget for each room? That's remarkably lawful for a halfling rogue.

Also, move Belkar's alignment one tiny tick toward good. He thought to save his animal companions rather than tossing them aside so that he could focus on saving himself.

And the monsters are waiting to attack those crossing the walkway, which is why you go around. I wonder if Sunny has already drawn their attention?

[RMS Oceanic]

Sometimes attrition is direct HP damage, and sometimes it's resource wastage.

[Reboot]

Serini had a budget for each room? That's remarkably lawful for a halfling rogue.

I mean, it's either that or the dungeon doesn't get finished, and she clearly cared about that!

[AstralFire]

Sometimes I forget Belkar has a low Wis when Elan does most of those gags, but...


But who (other than Durkon) actually prepares Mass Resist Acid?

Edited: SRD has Resist Energy, which can be used to resist acid, and which is sometimes worth preparing and with OotS spell renaming to purpose would probably be called "resist acid", if there's a mass version I could see the same thing.

Mass Resist Energy is one of the most common (and for a high level party, one of the cheapest) defensive resources you could have, due to the fact that you choose the damage type at time of casting, not preparation.

[SlashDash]

Interesting, so the spell will still last for a while. I wonder if this will come to play later.

Also loved that O-Chul was the first to notice the acid for obvious reasons.

[Tubercular Ox]

Interesting wasted spell.

I concur. Rich's notes show he thinks of Durkon as always having the wrong spell prepared anyways, interesting choice to show him wasting this one. It makes me think they're going to be grateful for this resist acid later. And by later, I mean within the next 10 minutes per level.

[Mic_128]

I am absolutely loving this dungeon.

EDIT: Also, not the first time Durkon's used that spell. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html)

[PH7]

Very good strip. The fear in the eyes of mr. Scruffy and Bloodfeast! :smallfrown:

And an interesting lesson. I really need to start thinking more along these lines when planning encounters.
One of the greater problems I have in planning D&D is balancing the encounters to get to the required number for an in-game day. Easiest is combat, but it often takes too long, especially if the group doesn't meet regularly...

[DasIrrlicht]

There where no monsters in the room to push into the 'acid' yet... We are not past the dramatic lighting walkway establishing shot yet, are we?

[Shining Wrath]

There where no monsters in the room to push into the 'acid' yet... We are not past the dramatic lighting walkway establishing shot yet, are we?

Pretty sure that Serini told them they had to get off the walkway for a reason, and it's not low dexterity leading to accidental falls.

[ZhonLord]

There where no monsters in the room to push into the 'acid' yet... We are not past the dramatic lighting walkway establishing shot yet, are we?

The monsters would presumably be unleashed by crossing the walkway. Since the party is bypassing said walkway, there will be no monsters to push down into the "acid".

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I love the misdirection of the hazards. :smallbiggrin:

[Gift Jeraff]

I can't be the only one who first thought O-Chul noticed MITD's species down there, before he said acid.

[Hardcore]

I'd hate this being done to me in an rpg session

[Tubercular Ox]

I can't be the only one who first thought O-Chul noticed MITD's species down there, before he said acid.

There's been an intense amount of interest in the MitD over the past five strips, and it makes me think I've missed something, so: Exploring.

If you were writing the story instead of Rich, how would you work in an example of the MitD's species at this juncture?

[chy03001]

Typical rogue; deceptive and thrifty.

[Psyren]

I see Belkar's Spot check hasn't remotely improved :smallsigh:

[Shining Wrath]

There's been an intense amount of interest in the MitD over the past five strips, and it makes me think I've missed something, so: Exploring.

If you were writing the story instead of Rich, how would you work in an example of the MitD's species at this juncture?

In passing; an MitD in the background, and O Chul doesn't remark because he's never actually seen MitD not itD. He has, perhaps, seen an appendage moving a Go piece, but even that is not 100% canonical.

[Mastikator]

Serini is my new favorite character.

[Lkctgo]

Given how there are apparently no monsters (at least none in stasis) defending the place - how would one go about wasting their spells.

[sengmeng]

Headcanon: Belkar could smell that it wasn't acid, but halfway down he remembered another halfling designed the "trap" so he thought the scent was masked and got concerned.

[ZhonLord]

Given how there are apparently no monsters (at least none in stasis) defending the place - how would one go about wasting their spells.
It's probably on the other side of the walkway, waiting to be released from stasis when someone gets halfway across and can't get back off the walkway before a charge can be made.

[Hiro Quester]

The PTSD in O-chul is really well portrayed here. His trepidation at another acid bath is palpable.

[Tubercular Ox]

O-Chul noticed MITD's species down there


In passing; an MitD in the background, and O Chul doesn't remark because he's never actually seen MitD not itD. He has, perhaps, seen an appendage moving a Go piece, but even that is not 100% canonical.

Almost the entire premise of Gift Jeraff's idea was that O-Chul has the power to notice the MitD's species, and when I asked to learn more about how he feels, you were here to tell us that his feelings aren't valid.

Is it really wise to interrupt when I am trying to understand other people? Maybe it will be good for everybody if I get more practice with it.

[Werbaer]

If you were writing the story instead of Rich, how would you work in an example of the MitD's species at this juncture?
In a bonus strip in the book. Just like he did in "Don't split the party" with the monster in the underwater adventure. (not a hint for MitD, but for another opponent soon to come)

[Tubercular Ox]

In a bonus strip in the book. Just like he did in "Don't split the party" with the monster in the underwater adventure. (not a hint for MitD, but for another opponent soon to come)

So I'm dense, and I apologize in advance, but I interpreted that sequence as foreshadowing Qarr and his Charm Monster spell. Was the giant retreating monster foreshadowing something else? I'm totally oblivious sometimes.

[Peelee]

Almost the entire premise of Gift Jeraff's idea was that O-Chul has the power to notice the MitD's species, and when I asked to learn more about how he feels, you were here to tell us that his feelings aren't valid.

Is it really wise to interrupt when I am trying to understand other people? Maybe it will be good for everybody if I get more practice with it.
Nobody called anybody's feelings invalid. Also, nobody interrupted anybody.

In a bonus strip in the book. Just like he did in "Don't split the party" with the monster in the underwater adventure. (not a hint for MitD, but for another opponent soon to come)
I always felt that should have stayed in the main comic, but I'm not a writer.

So I'm dense, and I apologize in advance, but I interpreted that sequence as foreshadowing Qarr and his Charm Monster spell. Was the giant retreating monster foreshadowing something else? I'm totally oblivious sometimes.
The giant retreating monster is the Adult Black Dragon mother. She admitted to V to stalking the fleet, waiting for the best time to unless her fury.

[Kantaki]

So I'm dense, and I apologize in advance, but I interpreted that sequence as foreshadowing Qarr and his Charm Monster spell. Was the giant retreating monster foreshadowing something else? I'm totally oblivious sometimes.

The Black Dragon mom hunting V.

[farothel]

I feel like a lot of GMs suddenly got some ideas.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd hate this being done to me in an rpg session The video games are over there ===========>
(Yes, it is a bit meta gamey, just as flame resistant mummies were meta gamey when Gygax introduced them)
Illusion and misdirection are a thing. Deception and misdirection are Rogue Things and Serini is a Rogue who designed this trap filled dungeon.
Beyond that: if we take a page from the wargame origins of RPGs, "if you don't have a deception plan you don't have a plan"

About the strip.
1. Like O-Chul's reaction to acid.
2. Like Belkar's Feather Fall con Animal Buddies
3. Like Serini's "Oh, yeah, I just remembered"
4. Love that Mimi is going to be the green ladder going into the green acid water.

This strip got a few smiles out of me. Thank you, Rich. :smallsmile:

[gatemansgc]

I approve of Belkar holding up the beasties so they wouldn't be exposed to supposed acid (at least at first).

they're the only thing he cares about!

[sengmeng]

Also, move Belkar's alignment one tiny tick toward good. He thought to save his animal companions rather than tossing them aside so that he could focus on saving himself.

I also found that heartwarming, but I don't think throwing them in would be anything but a dumb move. Just like V grew to regard Blackwing as more than a class feature but even at his most callous would have tried to avoid losing him as a resource if possible, Belkar still has logical, tactical reasons to save his animal companions, and would probably gruffly claim that's why he was working so hard to save them if called out on it. I think we all see him genuinely concerned and loving towards them, but he could still somewhat plausibly deny any sentiment. It's also a great moment where he has coldly and logically assessed the situation as "I am going to have to swim in acid while holding my small animal friends over my head, because that's just how it is." He wasn't panicking or anything. I once slipped on an icy step while holding my infant son, and there was no time for emotions or really anything except the realization that I was going to have to fight the urge to do anything to catch myself and take it right on the tailbone because anything else would endanger him and that was completely unacceptable. Belkar is a good dad.

[bunsen_h]

If you were writing the story instead of Rich, how would you work in an example of the MitD's species at this juncture?

Enhanced, Escalated Deeper Darkness (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deeperDarkness.htm). :smallbiggrin:


The PTSD in O-chul is really well portrayed here. His trepidation at another acid bath is palpable.

I didn't make that connection; thank you for bringing it up.


Headcanon: Belkar could smell that it wasn't acid, but halfway down he remembered another halfling designed the "trap" so he thought the scent was masked and got concerned.

Does D&D acid necessarily have an odour? Some real-world acids don't, particularly; it depends on how volatile the acid is. Hydrochloric acid is very pungent, and nitric is noticeable, but sulfuric and phosphoric have very little. Even allowing for the halflings' much better sense of smell than humans', if the room was well-ventilated, any odour from hypothetical acid might not be detectable. Given that the dungeon was created by a halfling, it would make sense that it includes strong odours in various places to mask any scent-based clues about its traps and other contents from any visitor who has a refined sense of smell.

[ZhonLord]

I'd hate this being done to me in an rpg session

True, but as Serini said before, this is a security system, not an adventurer's final trial to prove themselves. Nothing here is meant to be fair, challenging or even punishing. It's lethal, every intent is to destroy anyone who tries to claim the final gate. Frankly I'm surprised Serini hasn't used any Grimtooth traps yet, they'd be right up her rogueish alley.

[Thrillhouse]

Um, so Sunny is two tiles across when told to stop. When asked to use Telekinesis, he’s four tiles across—and doesn’t respond to the order.

My money is on the encounter already being triggered, and something is magically compelling Sunny to move forward.

[Frozenstep]

Of course it's O-Chul who notices the "acid" right away. I don't think anyone on the planet has as much experience as he does in giant vats of acid.

[Peelee]

I didn't make that connection; thank you for bringing it up.
Really? First thing i thought of.

Does D&D acid necessarily have an odour? Some real-world acids don't, particularly
Depends on how far you put them up your nose.

[Emperor Time]

That was a great twist with the acid being so believable at a distance that even O-Chul thought it was for real. And Belkar needs to be careful or else when he dies then Mr. Scruffy and Bloodfeast might be dying with him which would be a real shame.

[woweedd]

Hehehe. Serini's a jerk, but I kinda love it. That is some good trap design, i'll admit. Misdirection, baby! Also, shout out to Belkar prioritizing his animal companion's lives over his own. It's funny that we've gotten to the point Belkar can show altruism and it doesn't feel weird.


I can't be the only one who first thought O-Chul noticed MITD's species down there, before he said acid.

Somewhere, Mr. Fantastic and Plastic Man are pouring out a beer, because they will never achieve a reach that amazing.:smalltongue:

[Psyren]

The video games are over there ===========>
(Yes, it is a bit meta gamey, just as flame resistant mummies were meta gamey when Gygax introduced them)
Illusion and misdirection are a thing. Deception and misdirection are Rogue Things and Serini is a Rogue who designed this trap filled dungeon.
Beyond that: if we take a page from the wargame origins of RPGs, "if you don't have a deception plan you don't have a plan"


I mean, even so, Serini's dungeon is specifically designed to be as annoying/frustrating as possibe and would likely be seen as such in an actual tabletop game. Especially given that it uses a number of homebrew features (e.g. the continuous swap-over traps and dimensional stone construction) to limit the official means of recon/traversal that the game makes available to high-level PCs. I don't think players would have to resort to "video games" for that expectation of fairness.

[faustin]

Suddenly I feel quite relieved knowing Acererak and Serini never met each other or became pen pals.

[Errorname]

Serini's dungeon making tricks continue to impress

[OvisCaedo]

I know Belkar's not exactly smart, but this seemed... overwhelmingly dumb of him to do, in the trap filled dungeon where they're following Serini. What good would jumping down to wait for them have done him? Was he just overwhelmingly bored?

[woweedd]

I know Belkar's not exactly smart, but this seemed... overwhelmingly dumb of him to do, in the trap filled dungeon where they're following Serini. What good would jumping down to wait for them have done him? Was he just overwhelmingly bored?

His Wisdom is, shall we say, low.

[Ruck]

If you were writing the story instead of Rich, how would you work in an example of the MitD's species at this juncture?

Personally, I wouldn't, because I'm trying to keep it a secret as much as possible rather than dropping in random clues in scenes the MitD isn't even in.

And to reemphasize:


Nobody called anybody's feelings invalid. Also, nobody interrupted anybody.

[ella ventic]

Um, so Sunny is two tiles across when told to stop. When asked to use Telekinesis, he’s four tiles across—and doesn’t respond to the order.

My money is on the encounter already being triggered, and something is magically compelling Sunny to move forward.

Yes, I'm worried about Sunny as well! He starts across the bridge and then he never turns around or says anything or participates in any way. Seems ominous for sure.

[Peelee]

His Wisdom is, shall we say, low.

To wit: jumped into what he thought was a pool of water after grabbing a cat.

[sengmeng]

Does D&D acid necessarily have an odour? Some real-world acids don't, particularly; it depends on how volatile the acid is. Hydrochloric acid is very pungent, and nitric is noticeable, but sulfuric and phosphoric have very little. Even allowing for the halflings' much better sense of smell than humans', if the room was well-ventilated, any odour from hypothetical acid might not be detectable. Given that the dungeon was created by a halfling, it would make sense that it includes strong odours in various places to mask any scent-based clues about its traps and other contents from any visitor who has a refined sense of smell.

NECESSARILY? No. Plot conveniently? Probably. Belkar has been doused with acid before, as per his own words. Acid that eats almost everything, xenomorph blood style, and is stable in puddles in dungeons is fictional and probably chemically consistent. Besides, the criteria of evidence for acceptable headcanon is pretty loose, especially in this particular head.

[Edward15]

Also, move Belkar's alignment one tiny tick toward good. He thought to save his animal companions rather than tossing them aside so that he could focus on saving himself.


I'm looking forward to seeing a strip where Belkar's Protection from Evil clasp activates and it doesn't hurt him.

[Thecommander236]

I keep wondering if Serini is going to betray them. It seems like the answer is a soft "no". She's just slightly senile. XD

[ZhonLord]

I keep wondering if Serini is going to betray them. It seems like the answer is a soft "no". She's just slightly senile. XD

Nah, Belkar and Haley convinced her pretty thoroughly by treating the gods like a Mafia family. There's no way she's going to betray them now, when there's new information she can't ignore.

[Rynjin]

My initial thought on Belkar jumping into the "acid" was that this would be a HILARIOUS way to just abruptly trigger the "Belkar permadies before the end" prophecy.


I'd hate this being done to me in an rpg session

In this case nothing would have been done to you. There are ways to check for acid, poison, etc. If you choose not to employ them and assume any description of green liquid is acid, that's on you.

[b_jonas]

There are ways to check for acid Right. Throw in something that isn't too valuable (Belkar in this case) and see if the acid eats it.

[Aquillion]

Right. Throw in something that isn't too valuable (Belkar in this case) and see if the acid eats it.That's why you have someone inside vaporizing stuff that gets thrown in. And if they throw something that leaves bones, you have a little box under the acid that releases fake bones on command.


His Wisdom is, shall we say, low.
It's actually not that low! It has to be precisely 9, since otherwise he wouldn't be able to use a 3rd level spell when buffed with Owl's Wisdom. That's below average, but only very slightly.

[Tzardok]

This room has a one-way portal to my favourite elemental plane, the Plane of Liquid That Totally Looks Like Acid But Actually Isn't.

[Lumix19]

Poor O'Chul. A bad Spot check plus trauma is not a great combination.

[Provengreil]

I know Belkar's not exactly smart, but this seemed... overwhelmingly dumb of him to do, in the trap filled dungeon where they're following Serini. What good would jumping down to wait for them have done him? Was he just overwhelmingly bored?

I assume so. Even with all his character development, he's still pretty impatient and straightforward.

Still, this is clearly a setup, on a Doylist perspective. As others have noted, Durkon just cast a rather significant spell, and Sunny does not appear to have responded to Serini, with either words or actions. Bit out of character.

Furthermore, Serini is being less definite about this room than usual, we have the obvious foreshadowing in the impressive design of the room(Rich has been upfront about not liking to waste effort on stuff like this), and now the party is somewhat split up, and likely to split further in a moment.

[Tubercular Ox]

Doesn't Rich have a comment somewhere about swirly eyes, the hiding thereof, and the fight against Greg?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

In this case nothing would have been done to you. There are ways to check for acid, poison, etc. If you choose not to employ them and assume any description of green liquid is acid, that's on you.

Which is why, as the DM, you fill the pool with flesh-eating algae instead.

[woweedd]

That's why you have someone inside vaporizing stuff that gets thrown in. And if they throw something that leaves bones, you have a little box under the acid that releases fake bones on command.


It's actually not that low! It has to be precisely 9, since otherwise he wouldn't be able to use a 3rd level spell when buffed with Owl's Wisdom. That's below average, but only very slightly.
I'm willing to bet Rich is placing narrative over moment-by-moment rules accuracy, because Belkar for sure doesn't seem slightly below-average.


Doesn't Rich have a comment somewhere about swirly eyes, the hiding thereof, and the fight against Greg?
Yes, what's your point?

[Somniloquist]

So we have a bit more of a clue what this room's threat is: monsters, plural, and not aquatic ones that would need more than ankle-deep water.

It also raises the (maybe only interesting to me) question of what kind of budget Serini had to work with and how to make an economical dungeon. Has anyone ever run a D&D campaign as a resource management builder game? (And did any players come back for session two?)

[Psepha]

I don't even think it was that foolish of Belkar to jump. Hasty sure, but Serini literally asked Mimi to become a ladder so they could all climb down into the pool of "acid" - it's not like there was anywhere else to go via ladder

[Tzardok]

It also raises the (maybe only interesting to me) question of what kind of budget Serini had to work with and how to make an economical dungeon. Has anyone ever run a D&D campaign as a resource management builder game? (And did any players come back for session two?)
3.0 tried to give the option with the Stronghold Builder's Handbook. Was interesting, but the prices were pretty inflated.

[Kareasint]

We are dealing with an Epic Level Troll here. The fact that Serini cannot remember everything is adding to the fun.

[Feruk]

We are dealing with an Epic Level Troll here. The fact that Serini cannot remember everything is adding to the fun.

Ah, but she's only half troll, isn't she? So she's being serious about half the time...

[OvisCaedo]

I don't even think it was that foolish of Belkar to jump. Hasty sure, but Serini literally asked Mimi to become a ladder so they could all climb down into the pool of "acid" - it's not like there was anywhere else to go via ladder

I had assumed there was going to be a hidden path or walkway. In a dungeon that's been full of devious traps, blindly jumping into a pit for no reason besides impatience is borderline suicidal.

Though there might be something really odd going on with this room. Despite Serini saying immediately that they weren't going to cross the bridge, everyone has ended up piling onto it, and as another poster mentioned, Sunny seems to have just not even reacted or turned around to anything.

[Riftwolf]

Though there might be something really odd going on with this room. Despite Serini saying immediately that they weren't going to cross the bridge, everyone has ended up piling onto it, and as another poster mentioned, Sunny seems to have just not even reacted or turned around to anything.

I noted that as well. But then I thought the best place to spring a trap on the walkway would be most of the way across. That way either the party has to deals with the trap behind them, or is forced to run unprepared into the trap ahead.
Also the hidden path might be halfway up one of the pillars, requiring the party to step onto the bridge to find it. Cautious rogues could spend hours searching the near side and find nothing. Or even better, Hidden Door Golems.

[KorvinStarmast]

Which is why, as the DM, you fill the pool with flesh-eating algae instead. Aka Green Slime. :smallsmile:

Ah, but she's only half troll, isn't she? So she's being serious about half the time... *golf clap* :smallsmile:

[Chaos Bard]

I concur. Rich's notes show he thinks of Durkon as always having the wrong spell prepared anyways, interesting choice to show him wasting this one. It makes me think they're going to be grateful for this resist acid later. And by later, I mean within the next 10 minutes per level.

Or maybe later they will regret this one being wasted a few moments after it wears off naturally or after a well placed dispell trap that Serini forgot that was there.



Ah, but she's only half troll, isn't she? So she's being serious about half the time...

The other half is a halfling, so she can be serious at max about one quarter of the time.

[Tubercular Ox]

Or maybe later they will regret this one being wasted a few moments after it wears off naturally or after a well placed dispell trap that Serini forgot that was there.

Yes, definitely. And if the party is about to break up, then it's going to be the group that doesn't have Durkon in it that gets stuck this way.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yes, definitely. And if the party is about to break up, then it's going to be the group that doesn't have Durkon in it that gets stuck this way. Ah, so you have played D&D. :smallbiggrin:


The other half is a halfling, so she can be serious at max about one quarter of the time. Wait, isn't that Xykon's joke, recycled?
Hey look, I made a three eighthling (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html)

[slowplay]

Two thoughts: Mimi is my favorite character and I can't wait to see the Bloodfeast-Chekov-Gun start blasting.

[bunsen_h]

I can't wait to see the Bloodfeast-Chekov-Gun start blasting.

I'm still holding out for "Xykon hits Bloodfeast with a Dispel Magic while Bloodfeast is directly over him and a good distance away". I don't know how much damage is done by a falling dinosaur; I'd back-of-the-envelope it as "whatever advances the plot".

EDIT: In the final text page of Utterly Dwarfed, Rich said that "Someone who has appeared in exactly one (1) page of the story so far (including all the prequel stories) will become an important ally in the first half of the next book."People have generally assumed that that was Sunny, and Sunny would fit, but it could also refer to Mimi. Who could have been hiding just about anywhere.

[Diachronos]

True, but as Serini said before, this is a security system, not an adventurer's final trial to prove themselves. Nothing here is meant to be fair, challenging or even punishing. It's lethal, every intent is to destroy anyone who tries to claim the final gate. Frankly I'm surprised Serini hasn't used any Grimtooth traps yet, they'd be right up her rogueish alley.

I think the Grimtooth-tier traps are either further in or had to be cut for budget reasons.

[Tubercular Ox]

It also raises the (maybe only interesting to me) question of what kind of budget Serini had to work with and how to make an economical dungeon. Has anyone ever run a D&D campaign as a resource management builder game? (And did any players come back for session two?)
3.0 tried to give the option with the Stronghold Builder's Handbook. Was interesting, but the prices were pretty inflated.


I think the Grimtooth-tier traps are either further in or had to be cut for budget reasons.

You know, if you imagine a price curve steep enough, it would actually make sense to put all the low level stuff up front, in an effort to weed out lesser threats before they can trip the really expensive stuff.

[Blatt]

A room which causes the party to waste its acid resistance indicates that an acid attack will occur later.

[Peelee]

You know, if you imagine a price curve steep enough, it would actually make sense to put all the low level stuff up front, in an effort to weed out lesser threats before they can trip the really expensive stuff.

I think you just did an ethical fourier transform (https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-ethical-fourier-transform) for dungeons.

[Jay R]

I feel like a lot of GMs suddenly got some ideas.

Absolutely. The fake acid pool is definitely going in the dungeon I'm currently designing.


Interesting, so the spell will still last for a while. I wonder if this will come to play later.

:elan:: Dunh dunh DUNNNH!


Given how there are apparently no monsters (at least none in stasis) defending the place - how would one go about wasting their spells.

By making them cast it before they face monsters, of course.


I know Belkar's not exactly smart, but this seemed... overwhelmingly dumb of him to do, in the trap filled dungeon where they're following Serini. What good would jumping down to wait for them have done him? Was he just overwhelmingly bored?

According to the historical documents, he possesses a Wisdom score normally reserved for lemmings (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html). Risking his life by jumping off a high place into dangerous water rather than slowing down somehow seems appropriate.

[Peelee]

According to the historical documents,

"historical documents"?
https://i.imgflip.com/3ft4nd.png

[JonahFalcon]

Bloodfeast screaming is adorable.

EDIT: Haley's going to be pissed -- that green dye is going to ruin her Boots of Speed.

[KorvinStarmast]

You know, if you imagine a price curve steep enough, it would actually make sense to put all the low level stuff up front, in an effort to weed out lesser threats before they can trip the really expensive stuff. And Serini is budget conscious.

A room which causes the party to waste its acid resistance indicates that an acid attack will occur later. +1

I think you just did an ethical fourier transform (https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-ethical-fourier-transform) for dungeons. That got a laugh out of me.


According to the historical documents, he possesses a Wisdom score normally reserved for lemmings (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html). Risking his life by jumping off a high place into dangerous water rather than slowing down somehow seems appropriate. One of the finer strips in OotS.

Haley's going to be pissed -- that green dye is going to ruin her Boots of Speed. Her boots are green. Fake acid is green. Not seeing the problem. :smallconfused:

[JonahFalcon]

Her boots are green. Fake acid is green. Not seeing the problem. :smallconfused:

Her boots are brown. There's a reason for that.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html

[Diachronos]

I don't even think it was that foolish of Belkar to jump. Hasty sure, but Serini literally asked Mimi to become a ladder so they could all climb down into the pool of "acid" - it's not like there was anywhere else to go via ladder

Basically every room we've seen so far has had multiple secret passages that Serini has led them through to bypass the traps, it's not that unreasonable to assume that she's having Mimi lower them to another one rather than just going directly into the acid.

[Peelee]

That got a laugh out of me.

Don't forget the votey (the red button below the comic which has a bonus panel)!

[danielxcutter]

This probably isn't going to be a "wasted" spell anyways if they do end up fighting monsters; acid is one of the most common damage types monsters have access to. More than cold, electricity, or sonic, and comparable to fire IIRC. And it's a 10 minutes/CL spell, so unless this ends up taking a day or longer it should last until the casters stop to rest.

[AstralFire]

A room which causes the party to waste its acid resistance indicates that an acid attack will occur later.

not necessarily

Resist Energy spells choose the element they defend against at time of casting, not preparation or learning.

they also have extremely long duration at Durkon's level, like two hours

I'd probably follow with fire spells if I were designing a dungeon like Serini's, since I think fire and acid resist get paired the least, though this perspective is informed by player race resistances more than monsters.

[danielxcutter]

not necessarily

Resist Energy spells choose the element they defend against at time of casting, not preparation or learning.

they also have extremely long duration at Durkon's level, like two hours

I'd probably follow with fire spells if I were designing a dungeon like Serini's, since I think fire and acid resist get paired the least, though this perspective is informed by player race resistances more than monsters.

Fire's also common for monsters to use, so electricity damage traps would probably have a better chance of working IMO.

[AstralFire]

Fire's also common for monsters to use, so electricity damage traps would probably have a better chance of working IMO.

Yeah that's reasonable. A typical savvy party is likely to carry magical fire resistance outside of their base racials, and that is more likely to matter than racial resistances at those levels. Either way, acid would be the last thing I'd want to throw at a party I just tried this fake-out with for quite a while.

[Doctor West]

Yeah, I mean you can no-sell fire just by being a dwarf.
Wait, that's Sword World, not D&D. :smallwink:

[KorvinStarmast]

Her boots are brown. There's a reason for that.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html
They turn green when she flies. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0979.html)

[Shining Wrath]

So we have a bit more of a clue what this room's threat is: monsters, plural, and not aquatic ones that would need more than ankle-deep water.

It also raises the (maybe only interesting to me) question of what kind of budget Serini had to work with and how to make an economical dungeon. Has anyone ever run a D&D campaign as a resource management builder game? (And did any players come back for session two?)

There was a video game years ago called something like "Dungeon Master" where you created a dungeon and looted the adventurers you killed to get the resources to improve your dungeon.

[Provengreil]

There was a video game years ago called something like "Dungeon Master" where you created a dungeon and looted the adventurers you killed to get the resources to improve your dungeon.

You're probably thinking of Dungeon Keeper, but there's 2 others I can name. War for the Overworld, and one simply titled Dungeons. All 3 have themes of being the bad guy running a dungeon, none of them terribly serious.i think all can be found on Steam.

[Psepha]

There's a little part of me that thinks it would have been HILARIOUS if this was how Belkar finally went out - all the theories, all the alignment debates, all the arguments about "last breath" and then bam, he just jumped into a pool of acid and then they couldn't resurrect him because he dissolved.

Obviously it would be weird, pointless, unsatisfying, and pretty stupid - but I can't deny it would have been a funny end to the prophecy.

[wilphe]

I also found that heartwarming, but I don't think throwing them in would be anything but a dumb move. Just like V grew to regard Blackwing as more than a class feature but even at his most callous would have tried to avoid losing him as a resource if possible

He has other reasons to guard Blackwing, losing a familiar hurts

If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the sorcerer, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a sorcerer’s experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiar’s demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.

And it works exactly the same for wizards

[B. Pseudonym]

Alright, place your bets now- are they going to need to Mass Resist a different Energy later, making this expenditure a disaster, or are they going to get lucky and end up fighting an acid monster in the next two hours or so?

[JT]

There was a video game years ago called something like "Dungeon Master" where you created a dungeon and looted the adventurers you killed to get the resources to improve your dungeon.

Back in the dark ages (1980s) a guy in the college D&D group I was in ran a dungeon where the monsters did just that. At first, they just got lucky, defeating fairly incompetent player groups. As time went by, though, they got more and more magic items, and eventually started leveling up as well.

[Aquillion]

Alright, place your bets now- are they going to need to Mass Resist a different Energy later, making this expenditure a disaster, or are they going to get lucky and end up fighting an acid monster in the next two hours or so?
At the very least, Xykon uses fire and negative energy, mostly, although presumably Durkon still has Mass Death Ward prepared, hopefully more than once given how important it is.

(Really I'd hope the entire group is carrying multiple potions of death ward, but they're rarely that organized.)

[danielxcutter]

Death Ward is a 4th-level spell, so I dunno if it can even be put into a potion. And even if it can, it’d only last for 7 rounds, would take a standard action to activate, and would probably pop after a single area dispel.

[Lumus]

Alright, place your bets now- are they going to need to Mass Resist a different Energy later, making this expenditure a disaster, or are they going to get lucky and end up fighting an acid monster in the next two hours or so?

I'll take the long odds. The party's going to get split. One half will face acid and be annoyed that Belkar's nonsense ended up helping them out, the other will face a different energy and be annoyed that Belkar's nonsense cost them the spell they needed.

[Provengreil]

There's a little part of me that thinks it would have been HILARIOUS if this was how Belkar finally went out - all the theories, all the alignment debates, all the arguments about "last breath" and then bam, he just jumped into a pool of acid and then they couldn't resurrect him because he dissolved.

Obviously it would be weird, pointless, unsatisfying, and pretty stupid - but I can't deny it would have been a funny end to the prophecy.

That provably would have happened in 8 bit theater.

[Peelee]

That provably would have happened in 8 bit theater.

Oh man, memories. I loved 8BT back in the day.

[Doug Lampert]

At the very least, Xykon uses fire and negative energy, mostly, although presumably Durkon still has Mass Death Ward prepared, hopefully more than once given how important it is.

(Really I'd hope the entire group is carrying multiple potions of death ward, but they're rarely that organized.)


Death Ward is a 4th-level spell, so I dunno if it can even be put into a potion. And even if it can, it’d only last for 7 rounds, would take a standard action to activate, and would probably pop after a single area dispel.

Potions only go up to level 3 spells, death ward is level 4 for every core class that gets it. RAW there is no potion of death ward unless someone gets it as level 3 or lower.

[bunsen_h]

Potions only go up to level 3 spells, death ward is level 4 for every core class that gets it. RAW there is no potion of death ward unless someone gets it as level 3 or lower.

Nale had elixirs of Negative Energy Protection, bought in bulk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html). Not potions, but filling the same niche in this context.

[Psepha]

That provably would have happened in 8 bit theater.

Hah, yes! That's exactly the kind of thing they'd do. Oh man, good memories there :)

[brian 333]

That provably would have happened in 8 bit theater.

I still have my Armoire of Invulnerability. Tied to my back with a piece of rope. You can't see it because the cartoonist got tired of copy/pasting it in every panel, but I still get the bonus.

[Peelee]

I still have my Armoire of Invulnerability. Tied to my back with a piece of rope. You can't see it because the cartoonist got tired of copy/pasting it in every panel, but I still get the bonus.

Do you keep your sword-chucks in it?

[brian 333]

Do you keep your sword-chucks in it?

Most awesome invention ever! They can slash, they can pierce, and they count as blunt weapons, plus, they are simple martial exotic weapons with 10' reach that hit twice on every attack.

Swordchucks are the best.

[Provengreil]

Most awesome invention ever! They can slash, they can pierce, and they count as blunt weapons, plus, they are simple martial exotic weapons with 10' reach that hit twice on every attack.

Swordchucks are the best.

And they're almost as dangerous to the opponent as to the wielder!

[Throknor]

I've been re-reading so it seems appropriate to share this memory (https://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/05/18/vacation-04-3-i-love-bridge-jokes/).

On topic, is there a reason to think he only prepared the resist spell once? How many times could he at his level?

[danielxcutter]

It’s a 3rd level spell and Durkon’s able to cast… 8ths I think? He probably gets more than half a dozen of those per day, so this isn’t going to be a huge drain in and of itself.

[Provengreil]

It’s a 3rd level spell and Durkon’s able to cast… 8ths I think? He probably gets more than half a dozen of those per day, so this isn’t going to be a huge drain in and of itself.

Sure, if we're just counting spell levels. How many mass resist energies does he have? To fight Xykon I'd imagine at least 2, one for fire and one for lightning, after that there's a lot of other very strong 3rd level cleric spells IIRC so you probably wouldn't have more. If they fight before he can prepare spells again, one of those is going to be left open.

[danielxcutter]

I don’t think you can have two different versions of that running at once.

[JonahFalcon]

They turn green when she flies. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0979.html)

That's nice. They're brown when she's walking where people can see her and her fashion sense.

[bunsen_h]

I don’t think you can have two different versions of that running at once.

SRD doesn't mention (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) a restriction like that, at least not in the spell description. It "overlaps (and does not stack with) protection from energy."

EDIT:

They turn green when she flies. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0979.html)

I think that they show the spell effect in green when the speed effect is active, but the flight comes from a wand (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html).

[Provengreil]

That provably would have happened in 8 bit theater.

BTW, this was totally a typo, but given Black Belt's fate I feel like it's still true and I refuse to fix it.

[KorvinStarmast]

SRD doesn't mention (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) a restriction like that, at least not in the spell description. It "overlaps (and does not stack with) protection from energy."

EDIT:


I think that they show the spell effect in green when the speed effect is active, but the flight comes from a wand (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html).
Good point.
They turn green when she clicks her heels together to run fast.

[Psychronia]

Sereni worked with a limited budget and made it go a long way. I gotta respect it.

At a certain point, a spell cast is far more valuable than damage done. Especially when the original plan for Sereni was to go grab her epic level party for a final stand.

Can't blame the burned spell on her either. Belkar literally didn't look before he leaped.

[Tubercular Ox]

Also, Durkon is a cleric and every spell burned is a healing spell lost. And a tougher decision later about which spells to convert.

[KorvinStarmast]

More green boots modeled by Haley Starshine.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html

[St Fan]

SRD doesn't mention (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) a restriction like that, at least not in the spell description. It "overlaps (and does not stack with) protection from energy."


It does, just not in the spell description but in Magic Overview > Combining Magical Effects > Stacking Effects



Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.


Mind you, that's an heavily discussed rule.

[bt109]

To paraphrase Parson Gotti, when it comes to helping her own side, Sereni is somewhere between Gilligan and Starscream.

I will honestly not be surprised to find out she's secretly working for Xykon.

[OvisCaedo]

I would be very surprised if she were working for Xykon, since... She hasn't done so. Serini could have pretty easily let Xykon into the gate room ages ago. Xykon's been hammering away at the doors for how long now?

[Mic_128]

To paraphrase Parson Gotti, when it comes to helping her own side, Sereni is somewhere between Gilligan and Starscream.

I will honestly not be surprised to find out she's secretly working for Xykon.

Yeah, she's secretly working with the person who killed two of her best friends, been working on destroying another friend's sacrifice and left her monstrously disfigured (literally) after attempting to kill her.

Honestly, if she was working with Xykon, why wouldn't the paladins have arrived to her already having let him into the final dungeon?

[danielxcutter]

Maybe, just maybe the IFCC, though even then I doubt that. But definitely not Xykon. Or TDO for that matter.

[Coppercloud]

The thing is, the (stated) goals of Serini and the IFCC are exactly opposed. The fiends want bloody, unnecessary conflict leading to the destruction of the world, either by the gods (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) or by the Snarl. Serini wants to protect the world, and therefore the gate, by preventing conflict in the first place. When she learned that letting Xykon win wasn't an option, she agreed to try and take him out.

I could see Serini fleeing in terror when bone-man finally shows up, due to her past trauma, but I don't think she has any secret agenda at this point.

[Tubercular Ox]

leading to the destruction of the world

That would be complete victory for one side, which they don't want. I think they want conflict so strong at least some of the gods fight over the threads of reality like they did in the beginning, creating a second snarl that is strong enough to blackmail the gods but weak enough to be controlled by powerful creatures such as themselves.

Also, if it came to it, I think Rich could write a story where the IFCC tempts a character to do things that serve the IFCC and not the character.

[Peelee]

Also, if it came to it, I think Rich could write a story where the IFCC tempts a character to do things that serve the IFCC and not the character.

I thinks so too. Largely because I've already read that story (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html). :smalltongue:

[danielxcutter]

I think the link’s broken, Peelee.

[Domino Quartz]

Yeah, there's a missing colon.

[Peelee]

I think the link’s broken, Peelee.
Thanks!

Yeah, there's a missing colon.

Nope, just double http starter. I copied without deleting the prefilled text.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah, there's a missing colon.

That means that colon cancer is not a risk. :smalltongue:

[Tzardok]

A colon can completely change a sentence's meaning. For example:
"Yesterday, I stole my friend's lunch."
"Yesterday, I stole my friend's colon."

[danielxcutter]

...I think that was a Tumblr post?

[Coppercloud]

That would be complete victory for one side, which they don't want. I don't think that's accurate ; they specifically didn't want the Order (Vaarsuvius at the time) to win, a victory meaning that they would have protected the gate, and they didn't want Team Evil to win, a victory meaning that they would have used the Snarl to rule the world. Even if the IFCC knew about Redcloak's secret plan and the real purpose of the ritual, they still wouldn't link it to the threat to the world's existence unless they also got insight from Thor or another god. Conversely, in the strip I linked they seemed to consider "Hel winning the godsmoot and direct divine destruction" as "the gods doing their work for them" and they actively contributed to Girard's gate's elimination. So I stand by my position that as far as I can tell, the IFCC's goal is destroying the world.


I think they want conflict so strong at least some of the gods fight over the threads of reality like they did in the beginning, creating a second snarl that is strong enough to blackmail the gods but weak enough to be controlled by powerful creatures such as themselves.
That is certainly an interesting theory, but it seems like a big gamble and a complicated scheme worthy of Nale, with too many moving parts. The gods have to create another Snarl, then the IFCC has to control it, and for some reason they can do it when even the gods didn't success, just because they are three-colors beings?



Also, if it came to it, I think Rich could write a story where the IFCC tempts a character to do things that serve the IFCC and not the character.
Oh, of course (and as Peelee pointed out, it was how we met them in the first place) but it seems to me that if Serini was working for the IFCC she wouldn't have attacked the Order, or if she had, they would have removed V from the fight. Even Eugene makes more sense to me as an IFCC agent.

[Tubercular Ox]

So I stand by my position that as far as I can tell, the IFCC's goal is destroying the world.

The APB put out by the IFCC (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) was for anything that might tip the cosmic balance between Good and Evil in their favor. Through Sabine, the IFCC knows that the world was created with a repeatable process (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) and the destruction of that world is strongly implied to lead to the creation of a new one with the same balance of Good and Evil.

Destroying the world does not support their long term goals.

When the IFCC promised Tiamat (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) they would destroy five Good dragons for every black one that died, the slaughter was seen as trivial, if their plan succeeded. If their plan is to destroy the world, that slaughter is inevitable, not trivial. And none of the IFCC seems unstable enough to believe that killing every dragon everywhere is going to count as meeting their promise to Tiamat.

They don’t talk like they want to destroy the world.

Through Sabine, the IFCC learned that the Snarl is made of deific frustration and hostility (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html), and theorized to be even more dangerous to the gods than a mortal of the same level would have been. The plan they created immediately after hinges on creating destructive, unnecessary conflict, and they were willing to wait and see if Hel's attempt to change the context of the Godsmoot after most of the gods had already locked in their vote, no backsies, would do their work for them.


That is certainly an interesting theory, but it seems like a big gamble and a complicated scheme worthy of Nale, with too many moving parts.

They gave Vaarsuvius complete and total ultimate arcane power, then rolled the dice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) on whether V would use it to their benefit. Later we learn their plan involves a vessel and an artifact, and the last time they used the word vessel (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html) it referred to Vaarsuvius’ inert body.

These are indeed a lot of moving parts, but these parts exist even if their plan is to destroy the world. I think a plan to destroy the world wouldn't need this many parts, and throwing them in is a complicated scheme worthy of Nale.

[Provengreil]

So the conversation has turned to the IFCC again, and a thought occurs. Upthread, I posited Rich was forcing a party split: Sunny may be acting odd(tough to tell from two or three partial panels), Belkar jumped off the bridge early. Now might turn out to be a REALLY good time for the fiends to pop pause number 2. It'd certainly make it more difficult for the order to set up a good ambush at the gate if they end up having to scramble to get there.

[Tubercular Ox]

So the conversation has turned to the IFCC again, and a thought occurs. Upthread, I posited Rich was forcing a party split: Sunny may be acting odd(tough to tell from two or three partial panels), Belkar jumped off the bridge early. Now might turn out to be a REALLY good time for the fiends to pop pause number 2. It'd certainly make it more difficult for the order to set up a good ambush at the gate if they end up having to scramble to get there.

I think this is a great idea and I hope it happens just to give you the win.

I'm going to repeat my other hopes: that Roy, Haley, and Serini end up together, and that Durkon, Minrah, and Belkar end up together in a different group from the first.

In fact, it would make me happy if everyone in the first panel ended up in the first group.

[Doug Lampert]

So the conversation has turned to the IFCC again, and a thought occurs. Upthread, I posited Rich was forcing a party split: Sunny may be acting odd(tough to tell from two or three partial panels), Belkar jumped off the bridge early. Now might turn out to be a REALLY good time for the fiends to pop pause number 2. It'd certainly make it more difficult for the order to set up a good ambush at the gate if they end up having to scramble to get there.

I'm on team "The IFCC wants the world destroyed, that's at least a major component of their plan". But that doesn't mean that they're simply opposed to the order or in favor of X. They won't pull V's soul just to hinder the order unless the order is directly threatening their plan.


When the IFCC promised Tiamat (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) they would destroy five Good dragons for every black one that died, the slaughter was seen as trivial, if their plan succeeded. And none of the IFCC seems unstable enough to believe that killing every dragon everywhere is going to count as meeting their promise to Tiamat.

If you destroy the world, the deaths of a particular subset of the things in the destroyed world is in fact trivial. It's a trivial part of the plan, it's a trivial side effect of the plan, it's a trivial part of the destruction, there's pretty much no way it isn't trivial, and since when do devils (Lee is the one making the promise) NOT play games with literally true but misleading statements.

Seriously? It's a true statement and you think that the fact that it's a true but misleading statement is somehow UNLIKELY for a devil rather than the way to bet?!

[Coppercloud]

Could the IFCC drag V to Hell and simultaneously replace them with an imposter, Sabine for example? I know the skin tone doesn't match, but I'm sure there are workarounds. Or it could be any other shapeshifter or mage with Disguise Self, alternatively.

[Tubercular Ox]

I'm on team "The IFCC wants the world destroyed, that's at least a major component of their plan".
I don't think they're afraid of destroying the world, but it would be an accessory to a plan that furthered their goal of tipping the balance between good and evil in their favor.


If you destroy the world, the deaths of a particular subset of the things in the destroyed world is in fact trivial.

I don't know if you want to call it grammar, semantics, or something else, but the sentence is broken.

"If my plan to destroy the world is successful, it will be trivial to then avenge a bunch of evil dragons by killing a bunch of good dragons."

So an analogy would be, "If my plan to buy everything in the grocery store is successful, it will be trivial to then buy only vegan products."

Which is contradictory.


Seriously? It's a true statement and you think that the fact that it's a true but misleading statement is somehow UNLIKELY for a devil rather than the way to bet?!

They are talking to their co-conspirators about plans that everyone has the same awareness of, and "cooperation" is in their name.


Could the IFCC drag V to Hell and simultaneously replace them with an imposter, Sabine for example? I know the skin tone doesn't match, but I'm sure there are workarounds. Or it could be any other shapeshifter or mage with Disguise Self, alternatively.

I think it's worth considering the special effects involved (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html). To me they don't suggest you could physically insert Sabine along the return path, but there's wiggle room.

[Peelee]

"If my plan to destroy the world is successful, it will be trivial to then avenge a bunch of evil dragons by killing a bunch of good dragons."

So an analogy would be, "If my plan to buy everything in the grocery store is successful, it will be trivial to then buy only vegan products."

Which is contradictory.


That grocery store analogy would indeed be contradictory.

Now show me where the IFCC said "only". :smallamused:

[Tubercular Ox]

That grocery store analogy would indeed be contradictory.

Now show me where the IFCC said "only". :smallamused:

Tiamat's blue and green heads are Lawful Evil, not Lawful Stupid, and the other three are neither. You're suggesting that the IFCC can't figure out that Tiamat might object to having her plan to extract fivefold retribution on good dragons interpreted as a hall pass to destroy the world.

That's not even a moral dilemma, it's a Sense Motive check, one all three fiends seem to have failed, because none of them hesitate over the idea of having to tell Tiamat that all her dragons are dead, but at least they've fulfilled their promise to kill a whole bunch of good ones. The opposite, both Cedrik and Leo act like this is going to satisfy Tiamat.

They wouldn't talk like that if their plan were to destroy the world. They would talk about different ways to mitigate Tiamat instead.

[Peelee]

Tiamat's blue and green heads are Lawful Evil, not Lawful Stupid, and the other three are neither. You're suggesting that the IFCC can't figure out that Tiamat might object to having her plan to extract fivefold retribution on good dragons interpreted as a hall pass to destroy the world.

That's not even a moral dilemma, it's a Sense Motive check, one all three fiends seem to have failed, because none of them hesitate over the idea of having to tell Tiamat that all her dragons are dead, but at least they've fulfilled their promise to kill a whole bunch of good ones. The opposite, both Cedrik and Leo act like this is going to satisfy Tiamat.

They wouldn't talk like that if their plan were to destroy the world. They would talk about different ways to mitigate Tiamat instead.

Lot of words for "i cannot show you that".

Also, as we see from Loki, Hel, and Thor's interactions, the gods are not preternaturally adept at avoiding tricks or deception, even from people who are specifically known for tricks and deception.

[woweedd]

Lot of words for "i cannot show you that".

Also, as we see from Loki, Hel, and Thor's interactions, the gods are not preternaturally adept at avoiding tricks or deception, even from people who are specifically known for tricks and deception.

I think Tube Ox is implying that Tiamat will just kill them if and when she finds out.

[Peelee]

I think Tube Ox is implying that Tiamat will just kill them if and when she finds out.

Maybe. Maybe not. Im not even sold on the idea that the fiends want thr world destroyed - i just don't think it's out of hand that it would be incompatible with their promise of trivial dragon destruction.

[OvisCaedo]

I also think there's no reason to think the IFCC are actually afraid of Tiamat; at least, not in the instance of their mysterious plan succeeding. It revolves in SOME way around the gates, after all, and presumably the god-slaughtering Snarl therein.

The fact that they saw the idea of Hel winning the vote to destroy the world as "doing their job for them" would certainly seem to point towards the world's destruction being compatible with their plans.

[Peelee]

I also think there's no reason to think the IFCC are actually afraid of Tiamat; at least, not in the instance of their mysterious plan succeeding. It revolves in SOME way around the gates, after all, and presumably the god-slaughtering Snarl therein.

The fact that they saw the idea of Hel winning the vote to destroy the world as "doing their job for them" would certainly seem to point towards the world's destruction being compatible with their plans.

Especially since the end of the world isn't exactly the end of the world, metaphorically speaking. The gods would just make another one. Just different.

[Tubercular Ox]

I think Tube Ox is implying that Tiamat will just kill them if and when she finds out.
I don't think it matters, except that they didn't give it a second thought. Their plan in that strip is to satisfy her.


Maybe. Maybe not. Im not even sold on the idea that the fiends want thr world destroyed - i just don't think it's out of hand that it would be incompatible with their promise of trivial dragon destruction.

I think the world could be destroyed if it's between them and tipping the balance of good and evil in the fiends' favor, but I don't think it's their first plan nor their ultimate goal.


I also think there's no reason to think the IFCC are actually afraid of Tiamat;
I don't think it matters how they feel, except that they expressed an intent to satisfy her.


The fact that they saw the idea of Hel winning the vote to destroy the world as "doing their job for them" would certainly seem to point towards the world's destruction being compatible with their plans.

I think it's compatible, but I think the point of waiting Hel out is because Hel announced her intentions to rule as queen of heaven after everyone had locked in their vote with a no backsies rule. I think the fiends were hoping there would be some extracurricular shenanigans after the vote. Please interpret shenanigans very broadly, there are tons of good stories out there.

[Provengreil]

I think this is a great idea and I hope it happens just to give you the win.

I'm going to repeat my other hopes: that Roy, Haley, and Serini end up together, and that Durkon, Minrah, and Belkar end up together in a different group from the first.

In fact, it would make me happy if everyone in the first panel ended up in the first group.

you know, if that's the party split, Minrah gets to hang with all her new friends that keep their eyes at eye level!

I guess the paladins end up with Sunny somehow?

[KorvinStarmast]

you know, if that's the party split, Minrah gets to hang with all her new friends that keep their eyes at eye level!

I guess the paladins end up with Sunny somehow? I like this Plan.

[brian 333]

I think the IFCC believes that it will have a voice in the next world if this one is destroyed, but it would prefer to have the whole world fighting over the last gate for a few thousand years.

I am quite certain they know nothing about the Monument Plane, or about Outsiders getting mind-wiped between worlds. As for hiding on the outer planes eating stale devotion and drinking rancid belief for a few thousand years before the next world? I don't think they heard about that part.

[Vikenlugaid]

I think Tube Ox is implying that Tiamat will just kill them if and when she finds out.
If the fiends want the world ended, which is very likely, they obviously think none of the gods will blame them, or they don't care, they obviously think that they will end ok after all. And we don't even know if Tiamat voted Yes to the world destruction.

[Tubercular Ox]

If the fiends want the world ended, which is very likely, they obviously think none of the gods will blame them, or they don't care, they obviously think that they will end ok after all. And we don't even know if Tiamat voted Yes to the world destruction.

None of this matters. What matters is that Rich did not depict them this way. If this were their plan, they could've said something like, "If our plan for the Gates really works, she won't care about that anymore," or, "We'll be able to deal with her," or anything other than, "Once we flip the table, it will be trivial to help Tiamat score points in whatever game was being played on top of it."

It won't be trivial, it will be impossible, because the game will be permanently interrupted. And that's a metaphor. I don't think there's an actual game with actual points, but I think it highlights the contradictory nature of what they're saying.

[Blue Dragon]

O-Chul messed up big time here

[woweedd]

O-Chul messed up big time here
Nobody's perfect. And, besides, if i'd been submerged in acid as many times as he has (OK, it may or may not have been once, but that's still more then any person should reasonably expect to be), i'd be pretty confident in my acid-identification skills too. It's more a testament to Serini's trap design and/or her memory, or, rather, lack thereof.

[Precure]

I will honestly not be surprised to find out she's secretly working for Xykon.

To paraphrase Hanlon's razor, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

[danielxcutter]

Stupidity might not even be the right word. She is old.

[Precure]

Stupidity might not even be the right word. She is old.

Old and stupid.

[Metastachydium]

(OK, it may or may not have been once, but that's still more then any person should reasonably expect to be)

At least twice, given Redcloak's comment here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html), but Xykon remarking that it was getting predictable later on the same page implies more than just two, even.

[brian 333]

Stupidity might not even be the right word. She is old.

What are you saying, here? Are you implying there may be mental disability associated with advanced age? That's the problem with kids today! Think they know everything. Think they invented everything! We had things in my day. Trucks, and planes and stuff. Like Barracudas. You ever see a tricked out 69 'Cuda? Kids today know nothing. What? Get off my lawn!

[Aquillion]

What are you saying, here? Are you implying there may be mental disability associated with advanced age?
Obviously not. Everyone knows that advanced age can give as much as three whole points of additional intelligence.

[KorvinStarmast]

Get off my lawn! I'll join the Anvil Chorus.

Obviously not. Everyone knows that advanced age can give as much as three whole points of additional intelligence. And Wisdom. :smallwink: