Getting the most out of a LORE BARD as possible

[Klorox]

Hey all!

I’ve never played a lore bard before, and the guides here haven’t been updated in years.

I’m not opposed to dipping into a class for some extras (I was considering draconic sorcerer for the AC and cantrips), but warlock won’t work for campaign reasons.

How can I get the most out of my lore bard?

I’m open to any race and background.

TIA!

[Unoriginal]

Hey all!

I’ve never played a lore bard before, and the guides here haven’t been updated in years.

I’m not opposed to dipping into a class for some extras (I was considering draconic sorcerer for the AC and cantrips), but warlock won’t work for campaign reasons.

How can I get the most out of my lore bard?

I’m open to any race and background.

TIA!

Depends what you mean by "the most".

You could go Aasimar Lore Bard, use a component pouch and a staff, and style your character like an archetypal Wizard to be a Gandalf expy. That can be pretty fun.

[KorvinStarmast]

I’ve never played a lore bard before, and the guides here haven’t been updated in years.

I’m not opposed to dipping into a class for some extras (I was considering draconic sorcerer for the AC and cantrips), but warlock won’t work for campaign reasons.

How can I get the most out of my lore bard?
I’m open to any race and background.
I got to play a lore bard from 1-20. Great fun, lots of flexibility.
How far will the characters go? 11? 15? 20?
Are you rolling dice or doing point buy for character generation?

I. Race/Lineage:
(a) If you want to go pure Lore Bard, vHuman or custom lineage gives you a feat at level 1. I'd suggest that
or (I took resilient Con and never looked back).
(b) If you go Half Elf you get a +2 charisma boost out of the gate and two extra skill proficiencies. You can be a fantastic skills user.
(c) Aasimar is also a fine bard choice.

II To get the most out of your lore bard first tell me:
How many in your party?
What other classes are playing?
That will inform what they need out of you.
III Things to consider:
(a) Tier 1: (Levels 1-4)
Bardic Inspiration is a fine buff for your allies. With Cutting Words arriving at level 2 you suddenly have a choice to make: give inspiration or use it in combat as a reaction, reduce dice rolls by the foes that might hurt your party members. Focus on debuff and support to the party.
(b) Tier 2:
Magical Secrets. We'll get to that in a minute
You can, if you like, become a counter-spelling machine. I did.
(c) Tier 3:
Spell selection needs to be tailored for your party, but I found that Hold Monster (lock down an enemy) and Freedom of Movement (buff party member) are two spells that I used A Lot starting about level 10-11. As my spell save DC increased, all of a sudden Deafness/Blindness became a surprisingly good debuff.
(d) Tier 4: Wish, Simulacrum, Shape Change, Foresight ... the world is your oyster.

>>>>>>>>

I would not MC, but, if you want to MC early I'd probably do that to Sorcerer for one level to get
4 more cantrips. That allows you to have a bit more utility and some damage dealing above and beyond Vicious Mockery ... and a feature. I'd suggest going shadow sorcerer for the 120' sight which is better than darkvision. You could go Wild Magic if your players like unexpected shenanigans ... discuss with your group and your DM.

Cantrips I'd take at level 1 for a lore bard:

Minor Illusion
Light (that cantrip can be surprisingly useful)
-- I started with dancing lights, but I discovered that the concentration requirement was annoying, and the 'turn it into a shape that looks like something" is a cool feature that did not happen to help our party based on our play style.
Vicious Mockery

If you have the option to take Mind Sliver at level 1 I'd suggest doing it.
Spells:
At level 1, make sure to have dissonant whispers. That lasted for me well into Tier 3.
At level 1, cure wounds and healing word: I can make a case for either, pick one. If your party has a cleric you can discuss with them whether or not you even need to take either one.
Faerie Fire: a good spell if you are in a support role as it can help your martial allies hit more often.

[J-H]

I don't always agree with RPGBot (https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/#bard), but I do always check out their handbooks for classes and subclasses.

Bard is a full caster, and has a pretty good party-support bonus action. Unless you really tank yourself on spell selection, you'll be able to contribute no matter what. Max your Charisma early.

[Eldariel]

If you want to be a Wizard:
- Pick up Fey-touched for a teleport and e.g. Gift of Alacrity or Command/Bless/whatever as general utility (Command is great if you don't get it natively due to how well it upcasts and its lack of Concentration)
- Pick up Ritual Caster: Wizard. This gives you Phantom Steed, Tiny Hut (Bard-spell already, granted, but that's okay), Find Familiar, Contact Other Plane, and other superb rituals. This lessens the burden on your Magical Secrets to cover some of the Wizard-stuff you probably really want.
- You probably want Moderately Armored at some point to shore up your AC. Your race could also cover something like the Shield-spell and Absorb Elements (or you could just dip Sorcerer for 1 level at some point), though of course there's plenty of ways to go here.
- Your Magical Secrets allow you to pick up key stuff like Counterspell, Wall of Force, Contingency, Simulacrum, Magic Jar, etc. to mimic some of the more impressive tricks in the Wizard's arsenal with only one level's delay.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The last time I played Lore Bard, I took a Cleric dip for heavy armor, shields, and more spells. If I were to make that today, I'd probably do Forge or Nature Cleric for the dip, or Peace if you have the Dex for medium armor.

Pick one of the Ravnica backgrounds that gives a decent cantrip, maybe even other spells as well. Boros Legionnaire has Fire Bolt, Sacred Flame, Death Ward, etc. You can customize the background's proficiencies, and even swap the background feature for a different one, per the PHB.

The one I played had a decent Str with expertise in athletics, and Shield Master. Every encounter, I'd grapple and shove prone the most dangerous opponent, using Cutting Words if needed. Now you can even get Silvery Barbs to help with that.

Bard gets plenty of good spells that only have a verbal component, so you can still cast while grappling and holding a shield. There was a FAQ answer regarding war caster that gave a specific example of a Cleric being able to have his holy symbol on his shield and cast a spell with a somatic and material component with his shield hand without needing war caster. For verbal-only Bard spells, you've got: Vicious Mockery; Command, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Silvery Barbs; Blindness/Deafness; Mass Healing Word; Dimension Door. Some of those upcast fairly well.

Magical Secrets at 6th can be Fireball and Counterspell, at 10th should include Find Greater Steed.

There are other dips you could use instead of Cleric if you don't need better armor or shield proficiency or pick up Moderately Armored for both. Clockwork Soul Sorcerer 1 can get Shield, Absorb Elements, and Silvery Barbs, plus Cha-based cantrips. Clockwork Soul can trade out one of the bonus spells for a different abjuration or transmutation every time you gain a Sorcerer level, which would include the first level. If you can get a Mizzium Apparatus, put expertise in Arcana and you can cast any Bard or Sorcerer spell that you have a spell slot of the appropriate level to cast.

[RogueJK]

Lore Bards can be built to do a lot of things. So first decide what party role you want to fill. That will help guide what spells you take, especially your Magical Secrets picks.


1) Regardless of role, strongly consider a 1 level dip into Cleric for a 1st level subclass ability, medium armor/shield proficiency, and access to some additional useful spells like Guidance, Bless, Protection from Good/Evil, and Ritual Detect Magic. Good options for Cleric Domain include Life for boosted healing if you plan to take a number of healing spells (most of which are already on the Bard list), Peace for an additional party buff that stacks with Bless/Guidance, Twilight for shareable Darkvision and an Initiative boost for yourself or another, Knowledge for two extra INT skills with Expertise and additional Ritual Identify, or Order if you want to be the party Rogue's best friend by helping them double their Sneak Attack output with offturn sneak attacks.

Yes, you'll be 1 level behind in Bard abilities and spells known, but you'll be on track for spell slots, and the additional AC and Cleric spells and abilities typically more than make up for this. This doesn't require a high WIS, since the cleric abilities/cantrips/spells you want don't care about your WISMOD, so just leave your WIS at 13-14.

For example, a Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard X can be one of the best healers in the game, giving even straight classed Clerics a run for their money, with Life's boost to healing spells and access to most healing/status removal spells on the Bard list anyway, plus taking Revivify and Aura of Vitality as Magical Secrets at Bard 6.

Or a Peace Cleric 1/Lore Bard X can be arguably the best support character in the game, with access to a multitude of excellent buffs for use in and out of combat by using Guidance, Bless, Emboldening Bond, and the plethora of Bard buff spells, along with an additional Magical Secret like Haste.


2) If you choose not to take a Cleric dip, the Moderately Armored feat can be a big boost to a Lore Bard's survivability. Especially nice on a Custom Lineage Lore Bard, allowing you to start with +2 CHA/+1 DEX and a significantly higher AC than normal.


3) Strongly consider taking Counterspell as one of your 6th level Magical Secrets, especially if the party doesn't otherwise have access to Counterspell. Bards are the second best Counterspellers in the game, just behind Level 10+ Abjuration Wizards, due to the fact that Jack of All Trades allows them to add half their Proficiency bonus to Counterspell's spellcasting stat check.


4) Not as "must have" as the above options, but consider going with a race with a racial CHA-based damage cantrip. This could be something like MotM Kobold, or Astral Elf, or even VHuman/CLineage with Magic Initiate Warlock/Sorcerer. Bards lack decent at-will damage output, and grabbing something like CHA-based Eldritch Blast (MI:Warlock), Chill Touch (Kobold or MI:Sorcerer), or Sacred Flame (Astral Elf) can go a long way towards ensuring you always have something useful to do each turn in combat. (The Cleric dip grants you access to WIS-based Sacred Flame/Toll the Dead, but you're unlikely to have a high enough WIS to take advantage of that since you will typically be sticking with just a 13-14 WIS to meet multiclassing requirements.)


5) If you want, Lore Bards can be built into a decently tanky frontliner, even better than a Cleric. Something like a VHuman/CLineage Lore Bard taking Warcaster at level 1 and dipping into Arcana Cleric 1 for armor/shield and Booming Blade (plus a couple other Wizard utility cantrips). Then wade into melee with a Booming Blade Rapier, plus have a Cleric/Bard buff or Magical Secret Spirit Guardians running with their Concentration, and use their Reaction for either Booming Blade Opportunity Attacks or Cutting Words to deflect an incoming attack. Bonus points if you take Spiritual Weapon as your other Level 6 Magical Secret, letting you mimic the usual Cleric frontliner routine of BB/Dodge+SW+SG, just with the addition of the Cutting Words defensive reaction too.

[CTurbo]

Lore Bards are awesome. They could be the most versatile subclass in the game. On paper, the only 2 weaknesses they have are AC and single target damage. Both could be solved with feats, and while the single target damage could be solved with Magical Secrets, I don't recommend "wasting" one of those options on a single target damage spell. A single level multiclass dip could solve both issues.

1 level of Fighter solves the low defense/AC, but not so much the damage. You do get Con saves though which is GREAT.
1 level of Sorcerer solves the damage, but not so much the low defense/AC. You do get Con saves though which is GREAT.

Starting one level of Fighter or Sorcerer and then going Lore Bard from there would be fine, but Bards are one of those classes to me that works best full classed at least until late game. As a full caster, you're always going to be in a rush to get to that odd level for that next spell level. You want Bard 6 ASAP for those Magical Secrets. Then you'll be racing to Bard 10 for even more.

I'd probably go full class Bard and start vhuman or Custom Lineage and take Moderately Armored for the +1 Dex, Shield and medium armor proficiency. This gives you roughly +3 AC and also lets you prioritize Con over Dex in character creation most likely netting you +1 HP per level and better Con saves. If you really feel like you want your Lore Bard to have more reliable damage options just take Magic Initiate Sorcerer or Warlock later on.

I'd want 18 Cha ASAP and you could probably leave it there for a while, but 20 Cha should be the goal. Here are some good feat choices for a Lore Bard IMO.

Moderately Armored- As mentioned above, +3 AC is pretty decent. If used correctly, could net you more Con too. Note: I'd only consider this during character creation. I doubt I'd take it later on unless maybe you had an odd Dex.
Inspiring Leader- Great feat for any Cha character and especially so for a Lore Bard. SOMEBODY in the party should have this.
Ritual Caster Wizard- Adds a ton of utility. Not really Necessary for a Lore Bard, but never hurts.
Magic Initiate- Sorcerer or Warlock adds reliable cantrip damage options and gets you an extra spell.
Res(Con)- perfect option if you have an odd Con score. Definitely helps with those big concentration spells which Lore Bards will likely have a lot of.
Fey Touched- perfect if you have an odd Cha. This feats has become one of the more popular options lately and with good reason. Misty Step is great, and you could grab Bless or Silvery Barbs.

I've seen people play Lore Bards without addressing either the low AC or the low direct damage output and have been extremely happy with it as is. My daughter is currently playing a level 8 Lore Bard and she was complaining about her lack of damage options so she took Conjure Animals and Call Lightning with her Magical Secrets and has help on to a Wand of Magic Missiles. She's been happy ever since. She also started with 18 Dex and has a +1 Ring of Protection so even with Leather Armor, her 16AC has never really been an issue. 16 Dex and no other magical AC boosts and a 14AC does not look all that great though.

[CTurbo]

Your idea of starting 1 level of Arcana Cleric works decently. It greatly raises your AC with med armor and shield and also nets you a couple of bonus Wizard cantrips. I think you'd have 7 cantrips at level 2. You could still start with Ritual Caster Wiz at level 1 with Vhuman or Custom Lineage. It does come with some drawbacks. Assuming point buy, since you must have 13 Wis, you're stretching other scores thin. You'd have to dump Str and Int and I don't know if dumping Int makes sense for you character. You could have 9 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 13 Wis, 16 Cha. Any offensive cantrips would use your 13 Wis and not your Cha which is unfortunate.

1 level of Hexblade helps your AC and also your DPR. I think it may be the best 1 level dip for getting you everything you want while giving up the least.

[Klorox]

Your idea of starting 1 level of Arcana Cleric works decently. It greatly raises your AC with med armor and shield and also nets you a couple of bonus Wizard cantrips. I think you'd have 7 cantrips at level 2. You could still start with Ritual Caster Wiz at level 1 with Vhuman or Custom Lineage. It does come with some drawbacks. Assuming point buy, since you must have 13 Wis, you're stretching other scores thin. You'd have to dump Str and Int and I don't know if dumping Int makes sense for you character. You could have 9 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 13 Wis, 16 Cha. Any offensive cantrips would use your 13 Wis and not your Cha which is unfortunate.

1 level of Hexblade helps your AC and also your DPR. I think it may be the best 1 level dip for getting you everything you want while giving up the least.
I agree that hexblade is the most optimal dip, if I were to dip at all. I just really dislike dipping warlock.

Besides, this group I’ve joined uses crazy high stat rolling methods. Last character I rolled had 18/17/16/16/14/12. It’s insane, actually.

[sithlordnergal]

I agree that hexblade is the most optimal dip, if I were to dip at all. I just really dislike dipping warlock.

Besides, this group I’ve joined uses crazy high stat rolling methods. Last character I rolled had 18/17/16/16/14/12. It’s insane, actually.

Yeah...as much as it sucks, Hexblade really is the perfect dip for any bard. It nets you Shield, a decent damage cantrip, armor proficencies, and a way to add a bit of bonus damage. If you didn't want to go Warlock, I'd suggest 1 or 2 levels of Fighter, or Sorcerer.

[CTurbo]

If you roll for stats and get lucky, just stick with single class Bard and feat it out every chance you get.

Moderately Armored
Ritual Caster: Wiz
Magic Initiate: Wiz
Res(Con)
Inspiring Leader

[Klorox]

I got to play a lore bard from 1-20. Great fun, lots of flexibility.
How far will the characters go? 11? 15? 20?DM is aiming for level 20.

Are you rolling dice or doing point buy for character generation? Rolling, and it's ridiculous: we're rolling 5d6, rerolling 1s, and taking the top 3 dice. I'll undoubtedly have good stats.


I. Race/Lineage:
(a) If you want to go pure Lore Bard, vHuman or custom lineage gives you a feat at level 1. I'd suggest that
or (I took resilient Con and never looked back).
(b) If you go Half Elf you get a +2 charisma boost out of the gate and two extra skill proficiencies. You can be a fantastic skills user.
(c) Aasimar is also a fine bard choice. I'm leaning going vhuman, keeping it simple. There are a lot of feats I'm looking at here. I never liked custom lineage.


II To get the most out of your lore bard first tell me:
How many in your party?
What other classes are playing?
That will inform what they need out of you. 6 person party:

Barbarian, druid, ranger, tempest cleric, hexblade warlock, myself the lore bard.


III Things to consider:
(a) Tier 1: (Levels 1-4)
Bardic Inspiration is a fine buff for your allies. With Cutting Words arriving at level 2 you suddenly have a choice to make: give inspiration or use it in combat as a reaction, reduce dice rolls by the foes that might hurt your party members. Focus on debuff and support to the party.
(b) Tier 2:
Magical Secrets. We'll get to that in a minute
You can, if you like, become a counter-spelling machine. I did.
(c) Tier 3:
Spell selection needs to be tailored for your party, but I found that Hold Monster (lock down an enemy) and Freedom of Movement (buff party member) are two spells that I used A Lot starting about level 10-11. As my spell save DC increased, all of a sudden Deafness/Blindness became a surprisingly good debuff.
(d) Tier 4: Wish, Simulacrum, Shape Change, Foresight ... the world is your oyster.
the only magical secret I know I'm grabbing is counterspell. It's just too good to pass up.

>>>>>>>>

I would not MC, but, if you want to MC early I'd probably do that to Sorcerer for one level to get
4 more cantrips. That allows you to have a bit more utility and some damage dealing above and beyond Vicious Mockery ... and a feature. I'd suggest going shadow sorcerer for the 120' sight which is better than darkvision. You could go Wild Magic if your players like unexpected shenanigans ... discuss with your group and your DM.
If I multiclass, I'm on the fence between draconic sorcerer (cantrips, shield and absorb elements spells, AC bonus), and arcana cleric (cantrips, AC from medium armor).

Cantrips I'd take at level 1 for a lore bard:

Minor Illusion
Light (that cantrip can be surprisingly useful)
-- I started with dancing lights, but I discovered that the concentration requirement was annoying, and the 'turn it into a shape that looks like something" is a cool feature that did not happen to help our party based on our play style.
Vicious Mockery

If you have the option to take Mind Sliver at level 1 I'd suggest doing it.
Spells:
At level 1, make sure to have dissonant whispers. That lasted for me well into Tier 3.
At level 1, cure wounds and healing word: I can make a case for either, pick one. If your party has a cleric you can discuss with them whether or not you even need to take either one.
Faerie Fire: a good spell if you are in a support role as it can help your martial allies hit more often.


If you want to be a Wizard:
- Pick up Fey-touched for a teleport and e.g. Gift of Alacrity or Command/Bless/whatever as general utility (Command is great if you don't get it natively due to how well it upcasts and its lack of Concentration) This will 100% be my first feat. Who do you suggest giving the initiative bonus to?

- Pick up Ritual Caster: Wizard. This gives you Phantom Steed, Tiny Hut (Bard-spell already, granted, but that's okay), Find Familiar, Contact Other Plane, and other superb rituals. This lessens the burden on your Magical Secrets to cover some of the Wizard-stuff you probably really want.
- You probably want Moderately Armored at some point to shore up your AC. Your race could also cover something like the Shield-spell and Absorb Elements (or you could just dip Sorcerer for 1 level at some point), though of course there's plenty of ways to go here.
- Your Magical Secrets allow you to pick up key stuff like Counterspell, Wall of Force, Contingency, Simulacrum, Magic Jar, etc. to mimic some of the more impressive tricks in the Wizard's arsenal with only one level's delay.Thanks. I'm realizing the low AC of the lore bard is really tough to deal with. The DM asked what magic items we'll be on the lookout for, and I think rings/cloaks of protection and enchanted studded leather would really help me out if I don't take moderately armored or a cleric or sorcerer dip.


Lore Bards are awesome. They could be the most versatile subclass in the game. On paper, the only 2 weaknesses they have are AC and single target damage. Both could be solved with feats, and while the single target damage could be solved with Magical Secrets, I don't recommend "wasting" one of those options on a single target damage spell. A single level multiclass dip could solve both issues.

1 level of Fighter solves the low defense/AC, but not so much the damage. You do get Con saves though which is GREAT.
1 level of Sorcerer solves the damage, but not so much the low defense/AC. You do get Con saves though which is GREAT.

Starting one level of Fighter or Sorcerer and then going Lore Bard from there would be fine, but Bards are one of those classes to me that works best full classed at least until late game. As a full caster, you're always going to be in a rush to get to that odd level for that next spell level. You want Bard 6 ASAP for those Magical Secrets. Then you'll be racing to Bard 10 for even more.

I'd probably go full class Bard and start vhuman or Custom Lineage and take Moderately Armored for the +1 Dex, Shield and medium armor proficiency. This gives you roughly +3 AC and also lets you prioritize Con over Dex in character creation most likely netting you +1 HP per level and better Con saves. If you really feel like you want your Lore Bard to have more reliable damage options just take Magic Initiate Sorcerer or Warlock later on.

I'd want 18 Cha ASAP and you could probably leave it there for a while, but 20 Cha should be the goal. Here are some good feat choices for a Lore Bard IMO.

Moderately Armored- As mentioned above, +3 AC is pretty decent. If used correctly, could net you more Con too. Note: I'd only consider this during character creation. I doubt I'd take it later on unless maybe you had an odd Dex.
Inspiring Leader- Great feat for any Cha character and especially so for a Lore Bard. SOMEBODY in the party should have this.
Ritual Caster Wizard- Adds a ton of utility. Not really Necessary for a Lore Bard, but never hurts.
Magic Initiate- Sorcerer or Warlock adds reliable cantrip damage options and gets you an extra spell.
Res(Con)- perfect option if you have an odd Con score. Definitely helps with those big concentration spells which Lore Bards will likely have a lot of.
Fey Touched- perfect if you have an odd Cha. This feats has become one of the more popular options lately and with good reason. Misty Step is great, and you could grab Bless or Silvery Barbs.

I've seen people play Lore Bards without addressing either the low AC or the low direct damage output and have been extremely happy with it as is. My daughter is currently playing a level 8 Lore Bard and she was complaining about her lack of damage options so she took Conjure Animals and Call Lightning with her Magical Secrets and has help on to a Wand of Magic Missiles. She's been happy ever since. She also started with 18 Dex and has a +1 Ring of Protection so even with Leather Armor, her 16AC has never really been an issue. 16 Dex and no other magical AC boosts and a 14AC does not look all that great though.I'd prefer to stay single classed, and I'm not familiar with this DM's style, so I don't know if I can get away hiding in the back yet without worrying about my AC. I'm fine being 100% support and not killing anything directly.

If you roll for stats and get lucky, just stick with single class Bard and feat it out every chance you get.

Moderately Armored
Ritual Caster: Wiz
Magic Initiate: Wiz
Res(Con)
Inspiring Leader
Thanks. I really want Fey Touched as well. Maybe Telekinetic too.

[Bobthewizard]

2) If you choose not to take a Cleric dip, the Moderately Armored feat can be a big boost to a Lore Bard's survivability. Especially nice on a Custom Lineage Lore Bard, allowing you to start with +2 CHA/+1 DEX and a significantly higher AC than normal.

This is my recommendation. Medium armor and a shield at low levels is a huge boost to your survivability, and it lets you keep DEX at 14, so you can focus on CHA and CON. Without it, DEX becomes more important than CON, so you should take this feat at level 1.

I like this better than multi classing so you can get your bard abilities sooner. I prefer custom lineage over variant human. Darkvision is better than a skill profiency, especially for a bard. And with point buy, +2 Cha is better than 2 +1s so you can pick up Fey-Touched at 4. If you roll for stats the +2 is less relevant, but I still like darkvision better than a skill. But if you don't like it, variant human works fine.



6 person party:

Barbarian, druid, ranger, tempest cleric, hexblade warlock, myself the lore bard.

the only magical secret I know I'm grabbing is counterspell.

For that party, I'd take fireball as my other magical secret. It's a great spell to have in Tier 2 and even at higher levels it's concentration-free damage, which bards don't have much of.

[KorvinStarmast]

DM is aiming for level 20.
Rolling, and it's ridiculous: we're rolling 5d6, rerolling 1s, and taking the top 3 dice. I'll undoubtedly have good stats.
OK, then you will most likely benefit from Moderately Armored as your first feat. All you need is 14 Dex (well, 13 and then the +1 for the feat) and your AC issues more or less get addressed.

I'm leaning going vhuman, keeping it simple. There are a lot of feats I'm looking at here.
6 person party: Barbarian, druid, ranger, tempest cleric, hexblade warlock, myself the lore bard.
You don't need to do a lot of damage, your allies have that covered. Lean in hard to "support" and if you get a 18 Cha at level 1, get Resilient CON at 4 since a good number of your spells require concentration.

Also, at level 5: Get Hypotic Pattern. Nice CC (but immune to charm creatures need to be handled differently) for most of the game.
Magic Item Suggestion: The Cittern (MacFurmidh) is a lower level Bardic Instrument that will give enemies disadvantage versus Hypnotic Pattern.
If you can get it, or any bard instrument, grab it and don't look back. Really useful.

Spell Suggestion: at level 5, take Slow (if you all are using Tasha's optional rules). It's a good debuff to help our your combat buddies and reduce the number of attacks you may be subjected to.


the only magical secret I know I'm grabbing is counterspell. It's just too good to pass up. It is.
Fly or fireball are both nice choices at level 6. One is for AoE damage, the other is nice utility for you (and it can be upcast to get other party members airborne).

If I multiclass, I'm on the fence between draconic sorcerer (cantrips, shield and absorb elements spells, AC bonus), and arcana cleric (cantrips, AC from medium armor). My suggestion, if yo udo this, is take Draconic Sorcerer and put your Dex to 16 (since you expect high stats). But, I suggest single class. Your party is big enough that you are not likely to be targeted as often as in a smaller party.

The DM asked what magic items we'll be on the lookout for, and I think rings/cloaks of protection and enchanted studded leather would really help me out if I don't take moderately armored or a cleric or sorcerer dip. +1 Studded Leather (Glamour) lasted my Lore bard from level 5, when she got it, to about level 16 when she took moderately armored.

But, I would recommend a tattoo from Tasha's, shadow touched, as your other prime magic item.

It gives you a once per day "cut damage in half" bonus, and that helped me with dragon breath issues a few times.
Also offers darkvision and stealth bonus.


I'd prefer to stay single classed, and I'm not familiar with this DM's style, so I don't know if I can get away hiding in the back yet without worrying about my AC. I'm fine being 100% support and not killing anything directly. Then single class Lore Bard is the way to go. No need to MC.

Thanks. I really want Fey Touched as well. Maybe Telekinetic too. While they are both good, and I have used both on two different characters, I'd probably go with Fey touched if push came to shove.
Misty step, even if only once per day, is a very nice utility spell,
but,
here is a Great Advertisement for Telekinetic for your party: you don't have a rogue.
Telekinetic gives you a massively improved mage hand and you can take thieves tools during chargen (criminal background or custom background) so you can pick locks and disarm traps at a distance.

It was great for my paladin when we used it and he had telekinetic. And it can also be used to shove an enemy away, just far enough, to allow a withdrawal without an OA, or, to shove an enemy into someone else's spell area of effect. I did that a lot.

So I'll suggest that one over fey touched based on your party composition.

[Eldariel]

For that party, I'd take fireball as my other magical secret. It's a great spell to have in Tier 2 and even at higher levels it's concentration-free damage, which bards don't have much of.

Yeah, this looks reasonable to me. It's something the party lacks and it's a good non-Concentration contribution for the Bard's Concentration-heavy list. There are other alternatives, but you're mostly missing the Wizard list (with Druid and Cleric already in the party) and aside from something like Animate Dead, Counterspell and Fireball gets you the biggest non-rtiaul level 3 spells Wizard spells (Phantom Steed and Tiny Hut are obviously huge and while Bard gets Tiny Hut, spending a spell known on it sucks) meaning Ritual Caster can cover them if the DM somehow makes getting new rituals work.

But yeah, CLineage with 14 Dex/15 Con/max Cha (or 13-14 Dex and max Con in general) and then Moderately Armored into useful feats seems great. Inspiring Leader is also a superb feat.

[saucerhead]

6 person party:

Barbarian, druid, ranger, tempest cleric, hexblade warlock, myself the lore bard.
the only magical secret I know I'm grabbing is counterspell. It's just too good to pass up.
If I multiclass, I'm on the fence between draconic sorcerer (cantrips, shield and absorb elements spells, AC bonus), and arcana cleric (cantrips, AC from medium armor).


You've got a good mix:
-Barb, Cleric and Hexblade all capable in melee, will be looking for magical weapons and armor
-Druid and Ranger probably ranged/missile, will be looking for magical ranged weapons and light armor
-You are less likely to get magical armor or weapons ahead of the rest, so Draconic Sorcerer would be a good first level dip. Starting with 4 cantrips that do good damage (unlike the bard choices) +3 to your AC with draconic resilience (you won't need magical armor for a bit) Shield spell in case you fall into the deep cacky, and Con save proficiency for spell concentration.

You will want to take the Identify once you start being the Lore Bard. With no wizard, and low funds at low level, the ritual spell will be a big bonus.

I went with a kobold lore bard as we already had a couple people that were monster races in the group.

[CTurbo]

I agree with starting with Moderately Armored, but if you're looking for the best traditional Lore Bard, I would prioritize Inspiring Leader and Res(Con) over anything else after that.

Fey Touched is really good, but it's not exactly a MUST have. I wouldn't take it unless there is another specific spell option that you're after AND had an odd Cha score. My daughter took Fey Touched at level 8 on her Lore Bard recently because she wanted Misty Step so bad, but she actually ended up taking Silvery Barbs as her other option even though it's already on the Bard list because none of the other options really worked for her or required concentration which she was already overloaded with. Funny enough, my daughter was also planning on not dealing very much damage directly and she was planning on taking Counterspell and Aura of Vitality with her Magical Secrets, but by the time she actually got to level 6, she'd been complaining about how little damage she was doing and ended up with Conjure Animals and Call Lightning as her 2 choices.

If you're wanting a character that's "obsessed with learning the secrets of wizardry" I think Ritual Caster(Wiz) and Magic Initiate(Wiz) are the most ideal options for that. I'd also take Counterspell and Fireball at level 6 too.

Bards are awesome and they're about the last class that NEEDS feats that give them more spells. I'd almost rather have Alert or Lucky if I wasn't concerned with bumping ASIs.

[Klorox]

Thanks a lot all.

Question to those who’ve played bards before: is vicious mockery actually worth taking? It seems like it’s a save most enemies I can target with this spell are likely to resist. And even if they fail their save, it’s just one attack made at disadvantage, meaning it loses steam as we get into tier 2 when enemies start getting extra attack.

[sithlordnergal]

Thanks a lot all.

Question to those who’ve played bards before: is vicious mockery actually worth taking? It seems like it’s a save most enemies I can target with this spell are likely to resist. And even if they fail their save, it’s just one attack made at disadvantage, meaning it loses steam as we get into tier 2 when enemies start getting extra attack.

As a Bard player, Vicious Mockery is worth it. Yes, it deals very low damage, yes the Disadvantage only lasts for a single attack...but its also your only damaging Cantrip outside of Thunderclap, and the only one with a range greater than 5 feet. Its also extremely handy in Tier 1. Though you'll want to multiclass or snag Magic Initiate for something better once you hit Tier 2 and above.

[CTurbo]

I think thematically it is THE Bardiest Bard spell in the game. I love it because it nearly always fits the character, but it is not great mechanically for reasons mentioned above. I've never seen a Bard not take it though.

I would figure out a way to get Mind Sliver as it's a MUCH better alternative at-will damage cantrip for any Bard.

[Klorox]

As a Bard player, Vicious Mockery is worth it. Yes, it deals very low damage, yes the Disadvantage only lasts for a single attack...but its also your only damaging Cantrip outside of Thunderclap, and the only one with a range greater than 5 feet. Its also extremely handy in Tier 1. Though you'll want to multiclass or snag Magic Initiate for something better once you hit Tier 2 and above.
I am starting at level 5, so I’m considering “cheating” my way out of taking vicious mockery.

[KorvinStarmast]

Question to those who’ve played bards before: is vicious mockery actually worth taking? It seems like it’s a save most enemies I can target with this spell are likely to resist. And even if they fail their save, it’s just one attack made at disadvantage, meaning it loses steam as we get into tier 2 when enemies start getting extra attack. It's useful.


As a Bard player, Vicious Mockery is worth it. Yes, it deals very low damage, yes the Disadvantage only lasts for a single attack...but its also your only damaging Cantrip outside of Thunderclap, and the only one with a range greater than 5 feet. Its also extremely handy in Tier 1. Though you'll want to multiclass or snag Magic Initiate for something better once you hit Tier 2 and above.

I am starting at level 5, so I’m considering “cheating” my way out of taking vicious mockery. Then take Magic Initiate at level 5; Sorcerer or Warlock. Plenty to choose from.

Choose a class: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard.
You learn two cantrips of your choice from that class’s spell list.
In addition, choose one 1st-level spell to learn from that same list. Using this feat, you can cast the spell once at its lowest level, and you must finish a long rest before you can cast it in this way again.
Your spellcasting ability for these spells depends on the class you chose: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid; or Intelligence for wizard.
While you are at it, take Mind Sliver. :smallwink:

[CTurbo]

Starting at level 5 huh? Nice! Do you have your stats yet? If you skip out on VM, what will be your at-will damage? Crossbow? Other cantrip?

[KorvinStarmast]

I am starting at level 5, so I’m considering “cheating” my way out of taking vicious mockery. Actually, if you all are using Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, there's a "buyer's remorse" bit on changing cantrips at ASI levels ... it is covered in Bardic Versatility.
If you are starting at 5, you could have used it during levels 1-3 or so, and swapped in a new one at 4. Narratively. I do notice that Mind Sliver is not on the Bard list, so you'd need Magic Initiate.

Also note this: when you go up a level, you can add a spell and / or drop a spell. I usually added one and dropped one each time I leveled up once I got into Tier 2. There is not a "one best fit" so I suggest you experiment a bit to see what fits your group. You did mention that you are going to lean toward the support bit (which given the size of your party is a great idea) and you'll find more spells that are useful than you'll have spells known as you go up in level.

It can be a little bit of a mini game to figure out what to keep and what to drop.

[Klorox]

Starting at level 5 huh? Nice! Do you have your stats yet? If you skip out on VM, what will be your at-will damage? Crossbow? Other cantrip?

As suggested above, I’d probably take magic initiate (sorcerer) and get absorb elements with chill touch or firebolt and something like mold earth that’s utility but not on the bard list.

[KorvinStarmast]

As suggested above, I’d probably take magic initiate (sorcerer) and get absorb elements with chill touch or firebolt and something like mold earth that’s utility but not on the bard list.
Let's see:
Acid Splash
Blade Ward
Booming Blade - for when you do have enemies get up close to you, but you probably don't want to mix it up.
Chill Touch - solid choice
Create Bonfire - firebolt's a bit more flexible and has longer range.
Dancing Lights
Fire Bolt - good choice, yes some things are resistant or immune, but it's good.
Friends You have good enough people skills not to need this.
Frostbite - but the con save makes it less likely to hit.
Green-Flame Blade - if they do get close to you.
Gust
Infestation
Light
Lightning Lure - elemental damage and you can move them around. Problem is, do you really want to pull stuff close to you? Range is only 15' so probably not as useful as the ones with longer range.
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Mind Sliver - a bit fiddly, but nice due to INT save and the malus to their save on the next round.
Minor Illusion
Mold Earth - good utility
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation
Ray of Frost - good choice, but I'd take Chill Touch, wins by a nose.
Shape Water - Good Utility
Shocking Grasp - if they get close to you, and you hit them they lose their reaction and you can get away. I've used this a lot on both my bard and my celestial warlock when I need to get away.
Sword Burst
Thunderclap
True Strike

[RogueJK]

Good Sorcerer cantrip analysis.

For an additional go-to damage cantrip on a Lore Bard, Chill Touch is the clear winner, being 120' range, an attack roll (so not affected by Magic Resistance), and a less commonly resisted damage type, plus it has a sometimes useful anti-healing rider. Most of the enemies that are resistant/immune to Necrotic are undead, and it still has an additional effect against them even if the damage is mitigated.

Fire Bolt can also be a decent primary cantrip, since it has the benefits of an attack roll and 120' range, plus it can also target objects (which comes in handy at times), and does just barely more average damage than Chill Touch, but it uses one of the more commonly resisted damage types and has no additional rider effect.

Mind Sliver's psychic damage is a good damage type, it has a useful rider effect, and it targets a stat that is generally not very good on most enemies, but is affected by Magic Resistance, and does less damage than the others and barely more than Vicious Mockery. Mind Sliver is pretty much Slightly More Vicious Mockery, so I wouldn't spend an entire feat just to pick up Mind Sliver in lieu of Vicious Mockery. If that's where you're leaning, then spend the ASI elsewhere and just stick with VM... But it's potentially a good 2nd choice to supplement something better like Chill Touch if you're going to be taking MI:Sorcerer anyway, for backup use at times when you run into a high AC enemy or one that is resistant/immune to Necrotic damage, or for when an enemy gets within 5' of you.

Note that Create Bonfire is generally a poor choice not only because it has a shorter range than Fire Bolt, but more importantly since it requires Concentration. It occasionally makes sense for a PC to take it as a 2nd/3rd cantrip, if you want a resource-free battlefield hazard effect to pair with a party who relies heavily on teamwork grappling/forced movement, but it's certainly not a good choice for a go-to primary damage cantrip since it can't be used while Concentrating on a leveled spell.

[lall]

As suggested above, I’d probably take magic initiate (sorcerer) and get absorb elements with chill touch or firebolt and something like mold earth that’s utility but not on the bard list.
I start with two levels of divination wizard to get Portent, two mental saves, Fire Bolt, Chill Touch, Mind Sliver, Feather Fall, Comprehend Languages, Mage Armor, Shield, and Absorb Elements. (Yes, the cantrips are based off INT, but still worth taking.) Ghostwise hin for the telepathy and 1 rerolls. Feats: Eldritch Adept - Devil’s Sight, Resilient CHA, +2 CHA, and Lucky. Magical Secrets: Sanctuary, Create Food and Water, Fabricate, Commune, Heal, Word of Recall, Demiplane, and Wish. Expertise in the four CHA skills. Main shtick is social checks, ultimately using Portent, Hin Luck, Lucky, Peerless Skill and Cutting Words when applicable, influencing others without any magical assistance (BI isn’t magical) as using magic in that way could upset others and/or harm reputation.

[follacchioso]

Here are a few tips about the Bard spell list.

First of all, most of them are Concentration-based. Too many of them, to be honest. You will always have trouble deciding what to cast on your second turn, without breaking concentration.

Second, most of the Bard spells are for debuffing the enemy, rather than buffing your friends. You have access to Vicious Mockery, Bane, Sleep, Faerie Fire, Command, Slow, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, and so on; but you don't have access to Bless, for example. This is because you are supposed to help your friends by giving them Bardic Inspiration, rather than buffing them, while you use your Actions to weaken your enemies, because you are not a cleric. Unfortunately, debuffing is often more difficult to buffing, because you need to stay in range, hope your enemies are positioned optimally for your area of effects, and that they fail the saving throw.

Third, you have a very small number of defensive spells, and you are de-facto weaker than a Sorcerer or a Wizard because you don't have Shield and Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, and many useful spells. You don't have good armour proficiencies, or magic items designed for you. Yet, you will have to stay close to your friends, within 60' of them to use Bardic Inspiration and Cutting words. Bad luck.

Consider the points above when choosing spells. Bless is a great buff for the whole party, but it means you won't be able to use any of the good Bardic debuffing spells, which is what the class is built around. It'll still be plenty useful, but you won't be able to cast Slow, Hypnotic Pattern, and so on.

Most of the spells added to the Bard list in Tasha are good. Command is a good choice, and it fits the theme. Aid is excellent for healing allies, better than Cure Wounds in many occasions. Mirror Images is one of the few defensive spells you get. Mass Healing Word can turn the tides in a battle when your friends are down.

The last thing I want to say, is about multi-classing. While it is great to get better AC and cantrips, that changes the character dramatically, to the point that it may no longert feel like you are playing a bard. Vicious Mockery is lame in terms of damage, but it is great fun to ropleplay. If you have access to Firebolt, you will never use Vicious Mockery, and miss out on the fun. Same concept applies to having low AC and laughable offense. Be brave and bard-up!

[KorvinStarmast]

Here are a few tips about the Bard spell list.

First of all, most of them are Concentration-based. Too many of them, to be honest. You will always have trouble deciding what to cast on your second turn, without breaking concentration. Blindness/Deafness in Tiers 2 and 3 became a go to spell (I pumped my Cha to improve my spell DC)


Consider the points above when choosing spells. Bless is a great buff for the whole party, but it means you won't be able to use any of the good Bardic debuffing spells, which is what the class is built around.
Blindness/Deafness is non concentration.


Most of the spells added to the Bard list in Tasha are good. Command is a good choice, and it fits the theme. Aid is excellent for healing allies, better than Cure Wounds in many occasions. Mirror Images is one of the few defensive spells you get. Mass Healing Word can turn the tides in a battle when your friends are down. Sorry, forgot to respond to this.
Slow and Heroes Feast were the two I used most, and Prismatic Spray was one I picked but it's fiddly to use. (Great spell, though, versus a crowd).

[RogueJK]

Dissonant Whispers, Command, Shatter, and Blindness/Deafness are the go-to options for non-concentration leveled Bard spells. (DW in particular is one of my favorite spells in the game, with both good damage as well as a great rider in a melee-heavy party, and remains useful well into higher tiers.) In later levels, things like Synaptic Static and Mass Suggestion become excellent non-Concentration options too. Picking up additional non-Concentration Magical Secrets is also a good strategy, as is having a decent resourceless damage option like a Sorcerer/Warlock cantrip or even a bow/crossbow.


Bless remains very useful, even in a spell list packed with Concentration spells. You're not going to be casting top-level Concentration spells in every combat. You don't have the slots for it. Having an excellent lower-level Concentration spell like Bless is perfect for those other combats, or for when fighting enemies with nasty save-or-suck abilities where the save bonus for multiple allies pays even greater dividends.

[CTurbo]

I love Dissonant Whispers. The last session we had the other day had no combat at all thanks largely in part to Dissonant Whispers. The one time DW failed, a follow up Tasha's Hideous Laughter did the trick.

I agree with the guy that mentioned the flavor and joy of using Vicious Mockery. It's weak mechanically, but it's fun to use and roleplay.

I personally think Mind Sliver is extremely strong and it a decent reasonable mechanical upgrade to VM if it's deemed to weak to use. Mind Sliver is even better in a party with several other casters like the OP is going to be playing in- "druid, ranger, tempest cleric, hexblade warlock" he said. Mind Sliver would be an awesome addition and could be spammed every round.

Even though Bards don't have the best defenses, I've never actually seen it be a real issue in actual gameplay, and I think Moderately Armored, as mentioned over and over again, solves that potential issue in the first place.

[Klorox]

The last thing I want to say, is about multi-classing. While it is great to get better AC and cantrips, that changes the character dramatically, to the point that it may no longert feel like you are playing a bard. Vicious Mockery is lame in terms of damage, but it is great fun to ropleplay. If you have access to Firebolt, you will never use Vicious Mockery, and miss out on the fun. Same concept applies to having low AC and laughable offense. Be brave and bard-up!

Since I’m rolling stats, and I just found out the DM wants to give us all a starting feat, I’m gonna see if I can make Tortle work. I think an older, wise Tortle lore bard would be fun, and I’d have a pretty good AC.

[follacchioso]

That's quite good. The turtle will give you decent AC, and there are plenty of good choices for the feat - Resilient (CON), Warcaster, Gift of the Gem/Chromatic/Metallic Dragon, Fey Touched.

[KorvinStarmast]

Since I’m rolling stats, and I just found out the DM wants to give us all a starting feat, I’m gonna see if I can make Tortle work. I think an older, wise Tortle lore bard would be fun, and I’d have a pretty good AC.
Looks like a good choice if tortle is available. I'd go resilient Con if you get a feat at level 1. Two reasons for that.
1. Proficiency in CON helps with concentration.
2. Con saves versus poison and other stuff is pretty common throughout the game.

[Klorox]

That's quite good. The turtle will give you decent AC, and there are plenty of good choices for the feat - Resilient (CON), Warcaster, Gift of the Gem/Chromatic/Metallic Dragon, Fey Touched.

What are these, and where can I find them?

[RogueJK]

Feats from Fizban's Treasury of Dragons.

[saucerhead]

Feats from Fizban's Treasury of Dragons.

And the feats are not worth the high price of a mostly unusable book, so buyer beware.

[RogueJK]

And the feats are not worth the high price of a mostly unusable book, so buyer beware.

Besides just those feats, the updated Dragonborn races are excellent, the Drakewarden Ranger subclass is great, and a few of the new spells are good too.

[stoutstien]

Besides just those feats, the updated Dragonborn races are excellent, the Drakewarden Ranger subclass is great, and a few of the new spells are good too.

Brain/metal ghost Dragons are cool as well but most of meat of the book does feel like it was phoned in.

[KorvinStarmast]

And the feats are not worth the high price of a mostly unusable book, so buyer beware. I am glad that I bought it, have enjoyed using it and have used the lair template (also bought it on roll20) to lay down some lairs = saved me a load of work.

I upgraded both dragonborn PCs to the Fizban's model. (I are the DM)

Could it have been a better book? Yes. After much contemplation, I decided to put the gem dragons into my campaigns.
Are they strictly necessary? No. Metal and Chromatic cover all of the dragon bases just fine. I had some excursions out into the Void and the Far Realms, and decided to drag the gem dragons into the campaign on that basis.

I also liked the Draconians being formally inducted into the game and I use quite a few of them, in various mixes, as servants and minions of particular dragons. But I also use half dragons ...

[saucerhead]

I am glad that I bought it, have enjoyed using it and have used the lair template (also bought it on roll20) to lay down some lairs = saved me a load of work.

I upgraded both dragonborn PCs to the Fizban's model. (I are the DM)

Could it have been a better book? Yes. After much contemplation, I decided to put the gem dragons into my campaigns.
Are they strictly necessary? No. Metal and Chromatic cover all of the dragon bases just fine. I had some excursions out into the Void and the Far Realms, and decided to drag the gem dragons into the campaign on that basis.

I also liked the Draconians being formally inducted into the game and I use quite a few of them, in various mixes, as servants and minions of particular dragons. But I also use half dragons ...

Fair enough, but the OP is a player looking to make a bard. I don't think the book price is justifiable for the content unless you are the DM.

[KorvinStarmast]

I make no assumptions about the OP's discretionary income. :smallwink: