OGL Fiasco Fallout

[Zuras]

Just wondering, almost a year on from WotC/Hasbro alienating tons of their customers with their OGL shenanigans, how much has your RPG diet changed?

Personally, I’ve bought about 5x more non-D&D products this year than the last 5 combined. Granted, most of that has been either Humble Bundles or sales on DriveThru, but I’m actually checking for sales now.

I haven’t bought any 1st party 5e products, either, but that’s not a hard boycott, I’m just not buying WotC stuff now unless I’m sure I will use it in the near future. I’ve still bought stuff, but it’s mostly YA books as gifts.

I still play 5e regularly, but if I play multiple games a week, the other ones aren’t D&D now.

How is everyone else doing? If you were primarily playing 5e, have your habits changed? If you play non-D&D systems, have you seen an influx of interested new players?

[NichG]

The timescale is a bit short... I'm still running the same campaign with the same players as when that happened. Also, I don't tend to buy RPG materials all that frequently anyhow versus making my own homebrew stuff.

That said, practically speaking I suppose it did impact the degree to which I homebrew stuff on top of a D&D as opposed to off in totally custom systems. If it had fallen a different way, e.g. them not backing down, I think I would be less inclined to homebrew on top of even 3.5e out of concern that if I share it publically there might be some legal consequences. But the next time I touch D&D-based mods will probably be a few years from now based on my normal cycles anyhow.

So I guess pretty much no effect at these timescales.

[Xervous]

It’s mostly just added a few epic level obstacles between me and any chance of resurrecting hope or interest in future TTRPG D&D content. I’m further outside the shifting target audience than ever before, deaf to their attempted marketing, and I feel the need to point out that risky/controversial D&D content can thrive in the market just fine. Look at the #1 gaming scene of the year.

[Ionathus]

I was already not the target customer since I've already got 10ish 5e books and don't really need more for my current campaigns, and I have no interest in digital subscriptions like DNDBeyond. I'm probably going to steal a few 5.5e changes once those come out and homebrew them into my ongoing 5e campaigns, but I doubt I'll buy any of the books.

However, the fallout definitely changed how I'm thinking about D&D products. I'm less interested in official sourcebooks and have been testing out non-d20 RPGs more than ever before. So, no hard boycott here either, but it overall exposed me to more RPGs and got me thinking outside of the box.

EDIT:

Look at the #1 gaming scene of the year.
Can you please explain, what is this? I don't understand the reference.

[Anymage]

I assume they mean Baldur's Gate 3. Although that's complicated because risky themes inside a game are different from risky behaviors from the publisher, and conversely I don't know how much of the broader gaming audience is necessarily well aware of the OGL fiasco and Hasbro's recent layoffs.

[Cactus]

I bought just as much WotC product as I did in the previous 10-15 years. That is, none at all.

[Zuras]

I bought just as much WotC product as I did in the previous 10-15 years. That is, none at all.

So have you seen more 5e refugees looking for games in the last year, or no change? I got a lot of great recommendations for other systems on this forum, and found a new playgroup (mostly Shadowdark, but we’ve tried multiple other systems).

[KorvinStarmast]

I chose not to buy the latest "Magic Items Pile of Stuff" book as a direct result of what WotC and Hasbro have been doing.

I have picked up a couple of old adventures on roll20 that were on sale, but whether or not my group ever uses them is up to the group.

[ngilop]

I haven't change my purchasing habits at all.

Just irkedat everybody taking the OGL mess and anger at WoCT to just hop-hop onto some crappy D&D adjacent ruleset (paizo's PF 2).

Instead of going in a different route altogether. Like more GURPs, World of Darkness, Champions, 7th Sea, The One Ring 2nd ed, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, Cortex System, MechWarrior, etc etc.


Also... Upset that 3.5 books (1st and 3rd party) did not go down in price. Very upset at that.

[Zuras]

I haven't change my purchasing habits at all.

Just irkedat everybody taking the OGL mess and anger at WoCT to just hop-hop onto some crappy D&D adjacent ruleset (paizo's PF 2).

Instead of going in a different route altogether. Like more GURPs, World of Darkness, Champions, 7th Sea, The One Ring 2nd ed, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, Cortex System, MechWarrior, etc etc.


Also... Upset that 3.5 books (1st and 3rd party) did not go down in price. Very upset at that.

For significant numbers to jump into a *more* complex game from 5e really requires a big community, so I’m not surprised few people moved on to GURPS or Champions.

Looking at other systems definitely led to me cutting 5e less slack for stuff it’s not good at. I didn’t buy their heist-themed adventure book (Keys from the Golden Vault) because I couldn’t imagine running a heist in 5e after reading through Blades in the Dark.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I haven't bought the recent general books (I never buy setting or adventure books).

I did start (and am most of the way through now) a fork of 5e based on the new CC-licensed SRD

[warty goblin]

I haven't change my purchasing habits at all.

Just irkedat everybody taking the OGL mess and anger at WoCT to just hop-hop onto some crappy D&D adjacent ruleset (paizo's PF 2).

Instead of going in a different route altogether. Like more GURPs, World of Darkness, Champions, 7th Sea, The One Ring 2nd ed, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, Cortex System, MechWarrior, etc etc.


It's just possible that a lot of people are broadly happy with D&D, find it a completely usable catalyst/lubricant for social activity with their friends, and a theoretical slight improvement in game due to finding the One Perfect Ruleset for the One Particular Campaign is not worth the cost of finding that ruleset, buying that ruleset, and getting everybody else to use that ruleset. For a lot of people I suspect the rules are a means to an end (that end being hanging out with buds) and not an end to be optimized for even of itself. From that view, if you have to change rulesets, you want to change as little as possible, because it's essentially a lot of wasted effort to get back to the same place you started at.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It's just possible that a lot of people are broadly happy with D&D, find it a completely usable catalyst/lubricant for social activity with their friends, and a theoretical slight improvement in game due to finding the One Perfect Ruleset for the One Particular Campaign is not worth the cost of finding that ruleset, buying that ruleset, and getting everybody else to use that ruleset. For a lot of people I suspect the rules are a means to an end (that end being hanging out with buds) and not an end to be optimized for even of itself. From that view, if you have to change rulesets, you want to change as little as possible, because it's essentially a lot of wasted effort to get back to the same place you started at.

I'm in this post (plus some "I like tinkering with rules, so 'good enough' is good enough") and I like it.

[Brookshw]

I was fairly indifferent to the fiasco and WoTC when it occurred, and continue to be. It was disappointing that the great 'revolution' was sound and fury, but the results were just a 5e clone rather than a legit new standard being put forth. My purchasing habits are unaffected, but I wasn't buying WoTC content post Tasha (tried with SJ but was dissatisfied with the quality). Though I'm still wrapping up a 5e campaign (5 years running), I'm trying to sell the group on WFRP or a GURPS post apocalypse for our next, with a few other less known options to propose of those don't sell, but would not run 5e again.

[RedWarlock]

I'm in a couple 5e games, but if/when they end, I won't be joining any more, and I've deliberately declined invites to a few 5e games since the fiasco. I've told the other players I'm done with 5e/OneD&D, and I've made motions to start alternate games (CoD, 4e D&D, homebrew).

[137beth]

It's been a few years since I bought any WotC products. In 2023 I bought exactly 1 RPG product, and it was not for D&D (it was Word Mill's Mythic Roleplaying 2nd Edition). In 2022 I bought zero RPG products, so my spending has gone up, but that had nothing to do with the OGL.

[Psyren]

I was fairly indifferent to the fiasco and WoTC when it occurred, and continue to be. It was disappointing that the great 'revolution' was sound and fury, but the results were just a 5e clone rather than a legit new standard being put forth. My purchasing habits are unaffected, but I wasn't buying WoTC content post Tasha (tried with SJ but was dissatisfied with the quality). Though I'm still wrapping up a 5e campaign (5 years running), I'm trying to sell the group on WFRP or a GURPS post apocalypse for our next, with a few other less known options to propose of those don't sell, but would not run 5e again.

Yeah - of all the "revolutionary" products, MCDM seems the most interesting to me so far; Candela Obscura just seems like Blades in the Dark felt up Call of Cthulhu in a back alley (not a bad concept but unlikely to approach D&D, Daggerheart seems way too rules-light, Valiant is just 5.05 and P2e remaster is just more P2e with the OGL serial numbers filed off. But ultimately, 5.5e trumps them all.

For me, Hasbro does indeed suck, but not supporting them just means the creatives who survived the purge will likely be screwed too. It would be nice if WotC were somehow able to buy themselves free like Bungie did.

[Zalam]

Started a Mage: the Ascension campaign (and bought books for it) based around the evils of the Obligatory Icosahedon License (can't link to it, feel free to google it) set in the modern day.

Campaign is still ongoing.

But I seem to be an outlier.

[Ignimortis]

Hasn't affected my groups too much. The D&D-centric group has moved away from 5e three years prior to the whole debacle (onto PF2, and now looking for anything else to fill the spot), and the non-D&D group only got into PF1 recently because the GM had played the hell out of Owlcat PF1 games last year (and also had gained a rather noticeable dislike of 5e through BG3 (and later reading the rulebook to find out if there are major differences), citing it as unpleasantly simplistic and narrow).

If anything, I foresee a rise in VtM/Shadowrun/hacks games in my future, especially if I actually finish my SR hack any time soon (having a job is wonderful at inspiring one to put time into other projects, but also great at making sure you don't have that much time to do so).

[Batcathat]

Candela Obscura just seems like Blades in the Dark felt up Call of Cthulhu in a back alley

I hadn't heard of Candela Obscura previously, but I must say this description made me kinda curious to check it out (even if the mental image is somewhat disturbing :smalltongue: ).

As for the topic of the thread, I think I'm mostly unaffected. D&D has always been just one of the games I'm interested in and rarely the one I'm most into at the moment (growing up in a country where D&D is just a TTRPG rather than the TTRPG probably helps), which continues to be the case.

[King of Nowhere]

I bought just as much WotC product as I did in the previous 10-15 years. That is, none at all.
this applies to me as well. unfortunately for wotc, releasing a good product means that the customers have no reason to get more products.
I am amazed of how modern marketing can persuade people that something is the next big thing and you absolutely have to do it, while also convincing you to get bored within a couple years and ready to buy the next big thing. The actually good stuff survives the test of time: all the most popular sports have been popular for generations, and have remained consistent with minor rule changes. people in charge still make craploads of money, not by constantly selling new rulebooks (can you imagine if the NBA had to make rules revisions every few years to sell new manuals to make a profit?) but by hosting events and getting public and sponsorship. I'd be more likely to pay for that than for "hey, we released yet another rules compendium! aren't you happy that you put up a lot of effort learning the rules and now you have to start over because everyone will convert to the new edition?"

It's just possible that a lot of people are broadly happy with D&D, find it a completely usable catalyst/lubricant for social activity with their friends, and a theoretical slight improvement in game due to finding the One Perfect Ruleset for the One Particular Campaign is not worth the cost of finding that ruleset, buying that ruleset, and getting everybody else to use that ruleset. For a lot of people I suspect the rules are a means to an end (that end being hanging out with buds) and not an end to be optimized for even of itself. From that view, if you have to change rulesets, you want to change as little as possible, because it's essentially a lot of wasted effort to get back to the same place you started at.

yes and no. this make it sound like "d&d is just an excuse for very casual players to spend time together", and it probably applies to some groups.
But there is also the other side of the coin, that of hardcore players. those who like to run a highly tactical game, possibly to minmax/powergame. and those players also stick to d&d - they often stick to 3.5 or some of its variations - because learning a system to the level of being able to play tactically and enjoy the powergame requires a lot of commitment, and that knowledge can't be applied to other systems.
you can learn one system really well, or you can learn a dozen systems superficially. if your fun requires you to be good with a system, you want to stick to one system that you can master in depth. and if your chosen system does not do well what you want it to do, you have enough system mastery to houserule, homebrew, or merge rules. and for everyone involved it will be preferable to do "we use the system we know very well, with a couple of modifications" rather than "we're going to learn a completely new system from scratch".

So, we take the two opposites sides of extremely casual and extremely dedicated players, both of those have very solid reasons to stick to a system.

[Leon]

Mildly disappointed the thread isn't about playing Fiasco set in Fallout.

Not anything to do with it but I quit the hollow shell that is 5e and rekindled my interest in Pathfinder and have been gently stoking interest in it to my friends by reminiscing about a game we had that had to pause. Other games I was in have all paused or I've left for a variety of reasons that mostly involve RL getting in the way (declining to join another 5e game did cause some drama) I'm sure once people are available again we'll finally mange to finish Dark Heresy and keep on with Changeling the Lost. Was really hoping play a game called Heart: The City Beneath but I was the only player that had time.

Incidentally the last 5e book I bought was the Sword Coast Adventures guide, online resources were very useful for the games I did actually play.

[Cactus]

So have you seen more 5e refugees looking for games in the last year, or no change? I got a lot of great recommendations for other systems on this forum, and found a new playgroup (mostly Shadowdark, but we’ve tried multiple other systems).

I wouldn't know. I play in two weekly games* with groups of friends I've known for decades. I just don't have any reason to encounter people who have given up a game and are looking for a new group. One of my friends runs a weekly D&D game as well but I don't know which rules he uses.

I can confidently say that WotC's actions with the OGL didn't win them any new customers in my social circle.

*Currently Pendragon and homebrew Cyberpunk 2077.

[Xervous]

EDIT:

Can you please explain, what is this? I don't understand the reference.

In short BG3 has an adult scene with a Druid in bear form, a preview of which caused a massive bump in open beta sales. Said scene was also voted top game scene of the year along with the slew of other awards BG3 raked in. While Larian is on one side making such content, WotC has been an inconsistent jumble of apologetic marketing more concerned with mitigating possible adverse reactions to their material by anyone who is or might be a potential customer. The main thing they’ve got left is the label, but they’re just filling the bottles with tap water.

[KorvinStarmast]

Looking at other systems definitely led to me cutting 5e less slack for stuff it’s not good at. I didn’t buy their heist-themed adventure book (Keys from the Golden Vault) because I couldn’t imagine running a heist in 5e after reading through Blades in the Dark. BitD is not rules light, but for experienced RPG players it works well enough. We have fun with it.

From that view, if you have to change rulesets, you want to change as little as possible, because it's essentially a lot of wasted effort to get back to the same place you started at. Which makes D&Done a potential fork in the player base, and the reverse of unifying the editions/community - and get new players - that 5e pulled off.

In short BG3 has an adult scene with a Druid in bear form, a preview of which caused a massive bump in open beta sales. Said scene was also voted top game scene of the year along with the slew of other awards BG3 raked in. While Larian is on one side making such content, WotC has been an inconsistent jumble of apologetic marketing more concerned with mitigating possible adverse reactions to their material by anyone who is or might be a potential customer. The main thing they’ve got left is the label, but they’re just filling the bottles with tap water. I still have not played BG 3. was in the beta, it was buggy, and right now the motivation is low.
But I do want to play it some day.

[warty goblin]

yes and no. this make it sound like "d&d is just an excuse for very casual players to spend time together", and it probably applies to some groups.

Mmm, more I'd say that the point is the game not the rules if that makes sense. Obviously you can't play the game without the rules, but the enjoyable part is mostly playing the game. The value og sticking to a known ruleset is that it keeps the rules as essentially background to the actions and decisions made within them; if you know the rules you aren't thinking what can I do, but should I do.


But there is also the other side of the coin, that of hardcore players. those who like to run a highly tactical game, possibly to minmax/powergame. and those players also stick to d&d - they often stick to 3.5 or some of its variations - because learning a system to the level of being able to play tactically and enjoy the powergame requires a lot of commitment, and that knowledge can't be applied to other systems.

Also very true.



Which makes D&Done a potential fork in the player base, and the reverse of unifying the editions/community - and get new players - that 5e pulled off.

I mean only insofar as sticking with 5E is a split from the new system that's mostly just tweaked 5E. Seems unlikely to me that a lot of people will decide that because they don't want to make the leap to OneD&D, they'll jump ship to a new system instead of just... playing more 5E, and back-converting new stuff as necessary until they arrive at their table's own bizarre fusion.

[Zuras]

Moving to an online subscription service model while lots of people still like physical books is a great way to split the player base, even without a significant rules change that requires buying new books.

I personally would rather play something completely new than a slightly different system where half the things I remember aren’t quite correct.

[Psyren]

Moving to an online subscription service model while lots of people still like physical books is a great way to split the player base, even without a significant rules change that requires buying new books.

They'll still be making physical books.


I hadn't heard of Candela Obscura previously, but I must say this description made me kinda curious to check it out (even if the mental image is somewhat disturbing :smalltongue: ).

It and Daggerheart are the two Critical Role-bankrolled projects.


this applies to me as well. unfortunately for wotc, releasing a good product means that the customers have no reason to get more products.
I am amazed of how modern marketing can persuade people that something is the next big thing and you absolutely have to do it, while also convincing you to get bored within a couple years and ready to buy the next big thing. The actually good stuff survives the test of time: all the most popular sports have been popular for generations, and have remained consistent with minor rule changes. people in charge still make craploads of money, not by constantly selling new rulebooks (can you imagine if the NBA had to make rules revisions every few years to sell new manuals to make a profit?) but by hosting events and getting public and sponsorship. I'd be more likely to pay for that than for "hey, we released yet another rules compendium! aren't you happy that you put up a lot of effort learning the rules and now you have to start over because everyone will convert to the new edition?"

Well I mean, 5e lasted 10 years before a revision, and said revision isn't straying that far from the original, I'd say that's pretty reasonable.



I still have not played BG 3. was in the beta, it was buggy, and right now the motivation is low.
But I do want to play it some day.

It's fantastic, and probably will bring a sizeable influx of newcomers to tabletop.



I mean only insofar as sticking with 5E is a split from the new system that's mostly just tweaked 5E. Seems unlikely to me that a lot of people will decide that because they don't want to make the leap to OneD&D, they'll jump ship to a new system instead of just... playing more 5E, and back-converting new stuff as necessary until they arrive at their table's own bizarre fusion.

This is my read as well. And honestly, a big part of me thinks a lot of the resistance to One will melt as soon as those players try e.g. the new Monk and Rogue and Sorcerer etc alongside the old ones.

[Xihirli]

It's me, I'm the one who jumped to PF2E.
To be fair, I have tried as many games as I could since. Tried getting back into Monsterhearts, game fell apart. Tried getting back into M&M, game fell apart. Played an adventure in Candela Obscura that I really enjoyed but haven't played again since. I'm in a game of Fabula Ultima, a kinda-JRPG, that's loads of fun.
I played a Rogue Trader game as well (Maid!) that I really enjoyed.
But I've run a few games of pathfinder, one of which is regular that we're really enjoying. I played in an adventure path as a monk and had a blast. Enjoyed every one shot I've tried. Had a bad game of PF2E but for reasons with nothing to do with the system.
I haven't strictly been "no 5e," but I've been trimming it. I don't harbor any OGL-based ill will anymore, I let go of it when they put the rules on the Creative Commons. I think I just also don't very much like the game itself.

I got very excited for Black Flag / Vanguard but the instant I saw that it was basically the Pathfinder to 5e's 3.5 that was deflated. Dagger Heart my wife has made me promise to play with her but if it's out, I haven't checked. It's on the list we have a long to-do list.
I want to try the MCDM game but I don't know that I'll find anyone to play it.

So yeah, I've tried lots of new games but I can't bring myself to harbor any ill will toward the company for the OGL thing anymore. I think it just sped up the part of my life where I started noticing all the kinks and stretch marks in the game.

[137beth]

Moving to an online subscription service model while lots of people still like physical books is a great way to split the player base, even without a significant rules change that requires buying new books.

I personally would rather play something completely new than a slightly different system where half the things I remember aren’t quite correct.

Oh, are they finally moving to an online subscription service model this time? I remember in 2008 there was a lot of hand-wringing about how D&D would no longer be a tabletop game because DDI existed so now they only way to play Official D&D 4th Edition was through an online subscription. Then in the lead-up to 5e, WotC talked about releasing print adventures along with video game adaptions at about the same time, and I heard declarations that of course the tabletop version would be worse, and so this was the end of D&D as a print product and the beginning of D&D only as a digital subscription.

Then after 5e was actually released, WotC continued to release print books, but the introduction of D&D Beyond meant that they had moved to an online subscription model and the print version of D&D was dead.

So now with 6e, is WotC going to (again) end their print line and make it so you have to subscribe to an online service? This would only be the fourth time in 15 years that they supposedly ended their printed book line and replaced it with a digital subscription.

[Tarmor]

Absolutely nothing has changed for myself and my gaming group. We have tried a number of other RPG's, but that's something we have always done, and our main campaign is still D&D and that won't change. (We don't play 5E, and have no interest in it, or things might be a bit different.) I haven't bought any new D&D gaming material for at least 3 years. Mostly I write my own stuff or adapt material that I've owned for decades. If I am looking for something in future, I will do my best to avoid buying from WotC.

[Lemmy]

The D&D movie tanked, despite being pretty decent... And WotC recently announced firing 20% of their employees, mostly from their D&D and MtG teams...

How much of this is due to the OGL debacle and how much is due to their general mismanagement of their franchises (especially MtG) is hard to say, but it's definitely more than 0%.

[Zuras]

They'll still be making physical books.


Of course, but based on everything they’ve been telling their shareholders, Hasbro wants as many players as possible signed up for D&D Beyond.

Based on my experience with new players at FLGS venues recently, using D&DB with any divergence from the base rules will be a pain in the butt unless the DM has their own subscription and puts the work into managing it.

I don’t want to be both DM and SharePoint administrator for my campaign.

[Keltest]

Oh, are they finally moving to an online subscription service model this time? I remember in 2008 there was a lot of hand-wringing about how D&D would no longer be a tabletop game because DDI existed so now they only way to play Official D&D 4th Edition was through an online subscription. Then in the lead-up to 5e, WotC talked about releasing print adventures along with video game adaptions at about the same time, and I heard declarations that of course the tabletop version would be worse, and so this was the end of D&D as a print product and the beginning of D&D only as a digital subscription.

Then after 5e was actually released, WotC continued to release print books, but the introduction of D&D Beyond meant that they had moved to an online subscription model and the print version of D&D was dead.

So now with 6e, is WotC going to (again) end their print line and make it so you have to subscribe to an online service? This would only be the fourth time in 15 years that they supposedly ended their printed book line and replaced it with a digital subscription.

Theyve been pretty open about how they want it to be the way to go, as far as corporations can be open about anything. That they haven't done so yet is more a result of the audience refusing to cooperate rather than them not actually wanting to go through with it.

Certainly I refuse to buy any product where Wizards is allowed to touch it after I purchase it.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Of course, but based on everything they’ve been telling their shareholders, Hasbro wants as many players as possible signed up for D&D Beyond.

Based on my experience with new players at FLGS venues recently, using D&DB with any divergence from the base rules will be a pain in the butt unless the DM has their own subscription and puts the work into managing it.

I don’t want to be both DM and SharePoint administrator for my campaign.

D&DB just generally sucks as anything but a reference. And even then it's sub-par. And the rate of fixes is glacial, and only more so since WotC bought it.

So yeah. That's one big reason (other than the OGL stuff) I canceled my subscription. All my management goes into the Foundry VTT instance I maintain for my online games, since I'd have to do that anyway just to run the online games at all.

[stoutstien]

D&DB just generally sucks as anything but a reference. And even then it's sub-par. And the rate of fixes is glacial, and only more so since WotC bought it.

So yeah. That's one big reason (other than the OGL stuff) I canceled my subscription. All my management goes into the Foundry VTT instance I maintain for my online games, since I'd have to do that anyway just to run the online games at all.

Yea I can't get over how they tried to use beyond as the castle in the middle of the walled garden. I would love to be a fly on the wall in the meeting where after they bought it and they dumped in on whatever departments and said "fix this before One launch" and they laughed and laughed....

The coding is a mangled mess of temporary patches and fixes it would have been so much better to just start fresh and just transfer users to the new platform.

[Telwar]

My shelf space is not under nearly as much pressure from buying Star Wars Black Series figures as it had been prior to the Fiasco. I was already not buying anything D&D (since I think 5e is a lazy attempt that happened to get lucky), and extended the boycott to Hasbro products.

My group is now much more open to PF2 and I'm running the Abomination Vaults path for the group. I'd love it if one of the others ran a Shadowrun game, but I'm 99% sure I'd have to be the one who ran it.

[Psyren]

Oh, are they finally moving to an online subscription service model this time? I remember in 2008 there was a lot of hand-wringing about how D&D would no longer be a tabletop game because DDI existed so now they only way to play Official D&D 4th Edition was through an online subscription. Then in the lead-up to 5e, WotC talked about releasing print adventures along with video game adaptions at about the same time, and I heard declarations that of course the tabletop version would be worse, and so this was the end of D&D as a print product and the beginning of D&D only as a digital subscription.

Then after 5e was actually released, WotC continued to release print books, but the introduction of D&D Beyond meant that they had moved to an online subscription model and the print version of D&D was dead.

So now with 6e, is WotC going to (again) end their print line and make it so you have to subscribe to an online service? This would only be the fourth time in 15 years that they supposedly ended their printed book line and replaced it with a digital subscription.

As mentioned above, physical books aren't going anywhere. But your point that that won't stop people from declaring the continued death of printed D&D is well-taken.


Of course, but based on everything they’ve been telling their shareholders, Hasbro wants as many players as possible signed up for D&D Beyond.

Based on my experience with new players at FLGS venues recently, using D&DB with any divergence from the base rules will be a pain in the butt unless the DM has their own subscription and puts the work into managing it.

I don’t want to be both DM and SharePoint administrator for my campaign.

I've found homebrewing on DDB (and using the homebrew of others) to be much easier than other platforms, and there's a pretty active community to help you if you don't know the best way to do something. Of course, my use of outright homebrew has also been fairly limited; most of what I've been doing are things like additional/custom feats to enable power use on certain items or to add feats from backgrounds and the like.

[Mechalich]

The D&D movie tanked, despite being pretty decent...

Well, Honor Among Thieves made 207 million at the global box office, which will be in the top 25 films of the year and is slightly more money than Equalizer 3, for comparison. The problem is rather that it cost 150 million to make, so that the gross was nowhere near sufficient when compared to the budget. That's been the case with almost every film budgeted above 100 million this year, so I don't think it's anything unique to D&D as a product.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The last five RPGs I've played have been Lancer, STaRS, Pokemon Tabletop United, Exalted 3e, and a d20 Exalted hack. Can't say my diet's been affected; I was already pretty burnt out on D&D after a pair of multi-year campaigns.

[OldTrees1]

I am now playing Pathfinder 1E (3.P version) instead of 5E.

I have not bought any more 5E material and continue to only buy 2nd market MtG material.

Previously when 4E and 5E came out, they had a chance to lose my money (I would buy the CORE unless given a reason). Now 6E in 2030+ will need to earn my money.

On the other hand Larian won my money with BG3 and I went back to buy DOS2 and DOS1 (although I am unsure if it will play DOS1).


Basically WotC has not finished earning my trust again. I recognize it made some effort to repair with the open license. However earning trust is a process and that was the last we heard from them.

[Xihirli]

Well, Honor Among Thieves made 207 million at the global box office, which will be in the top 25 films of the year and is slightly more money than Equalizer 3, for comparison. The problem is rather that it cost 150 million to make, so that the gross was nowhere near sufficient when compared to the budget. That's been the case with almost every film budgeted above 100 million this year, so I don't think it's anything unique to D&D as a product.

Yeah all they needed to do was not pay for that expensive dragon scene that had nothing to do with the plot.

[Rynjin]

Been playing a lot of other RPGs this year for sure, mainly Savage Worlds, Lancer, and Final Fantasy d6.

[oxybe]

My "D&D group" hasn't actually touched any edition of D&D newer then 3.5 .

Not that the option wasn't there, D&D is usually the third option that's always available, we just have other games we're more hyped for.

We've played Dragonbane (well, currently playing this), Twilight2000, Lancer, Mork Borg, the Witcher, the Alien TTRPG, Adventures in Middle Earth (built off of a 5e foundation, but different enough to be it's own thing), Pathfinder 2e, some Genesys and probably a couple one-shots I'm forgetting this year alone.

My group loves trying out new systems.

[catagent101]

I think I would have gotten into 5e this year if WotC didn't start having bright ideas (sarcastic) about the OGL. I was going on the idea that my resistance to it was kinda silly and then well... that happened.

[Silly Name]

Nothing has changed for me. I play a multitude of RPGs, and I play 5e still - I'm busy finishing buying up a few things from my backlog (both D&D and not-D&D products), but I honestly have zero interest in One D&D, it just doesn't seem my cup of tea.

I see zero reason to stop playing a game I enjoy, the manuals which I already own, just because WotC made a legal mess in an attempt to control the VTT scene.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah - of all the "revolutionary" products, MCDM seems the most interesting to me so far; Candela Obscura just seems like Blades in the Dark felt up Call of Cthulhu in a back alley (not a bad concept but unlikely to approach D&D, Daggerheart seems way too rules-light, Valiant is just 5.05 and P2e remaster is just more P2e with the OGL serial numbers filed off. But ultimately, 5.5e trumps them all. I'm pretty disillusioned. Most of my impression about MC is that he doesn't really understand the appeal of 4e or 5e, and is really just throwing buzzwords around.

PF2 continues to be as insufferable as its playerbase. People don't seem to understand that making my gameplay experience worse than 5e when 3.5 can both do that and be interesting in its own ways is a tough sell, and picking a game system out of spite and making that into your identity isn't a good idea.

It almost feels like this niche of the gameplay community is solved. 5e's execution is so slick in so many ways that playing other systems has lead me to rubbing my temples at the neologisms used to make a system sound unique. I've been pretty happy with a lot of the 5.5 changes aside from the subclass level rearrangements, too.


For me, Hasbro does indeed suck, but not supporting them just means the creatives who survived the purge will likely be screwed too. It would be nice if WotC were somehow able to buy themselves free like Bungie did.

Jees. If you thinking people complaining about DnD is tiring, you should join me in Destiny 2. Bungie recently got acquired by Sony (Good, in my opinion, Sony tends to do a pretty good job publishing games), but D2 has had a rough year in terms of sales. Legacy Collection is free on epic though, and I've been digging the QoL changes we've been getting.

[Spriteless]

I was in the middle of running Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel, still am. Will probably finish it in a few more years. Don't plan on buying the next PHB, because players don't. I think my next game will be Lancer. My players enjoy powerful builds and that system is good for that, and doesn't ask (players) for money just to play. Or learn a less dark variant of Blades in the Dark.

I have actually a bunch of non-hasbro 5e books too, might be 5e.

[kyoryu]

I haven't change my purchasing habits at all.

Just irkedat everybody taking the OGL mess and anger at WoCT to just hop-hop onto some crappy D&D adjacent ruleset (paizo's PF 2).

Instead of going in a different route altogether. Like more GURPs, World of Darkness, Champions, 7th Sea, The One Ring 2nd ed, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, Cortex System, MechWarrior, etc etc.


Also... Upset that 3.5 books (1st and 3rd party) did not go down in price. Very upset at that.

People seem to like 5e. They're not mad at the game, they're mad at the company.

Jumping to something as adjacent as possible is the reasonable thing to expect.

[Psyren]

People seem to like 5e. They're not mad at the game, they're mad at the company.

Jumping to something as adjacent as possible is the reasonable thing to expect.

It's a great game owned by an awful company. Or more accurately in my view, a great game owned by a highly questionable company owned by an absolutely excrement company.

[Mordante]

Last time I bought RPG books is when someone offered me some 2nd hand 3.5 books. Before that it was nearly a decade since I bought any RPG books.

[KorvinStarmast]

I personally would rather play something completely new than a slightly different system where half the things I remember aren’t quite correct. I felt that way when I first played D&D 5e. :smallcool:

I don’t want to be both DM and SharePoint administrator for my campaign. Nailed it. :smallcool:

It's a great game owned by an awful company. Or more accurately in my view, a great game owned by a highly questionable company owned by an absolutely excrement company. And they hired someone from the Borg MS to lead them ...

Candela Obscura just seems like Blades in the Dark felt up Call of Cthulhu in a back alley Nice bit of wordsmithing, that. :smallsmile:

[Trafalgar]

I am sure everyone heard about the layoffs. At first I thought that they had finished most of the coding for the VTT and were cutting down on staff. Then I heard Mike Mearls got laid off...

[Pex]

I continue to play D&D and use DND Beyond normally. A particular You Tube Gamer Personality I watch often, however, has had an averse reaction as he is a 3rd party publisher. He switched to running Pathfinder games, which is fine. He hates WOTC, which is fine. However, now every instructional and live video he does he has to rant against D&D the game at some point. He used to do scripted video shorts that spoofs a gaming table, stopped for awhile, and is now doing them again but this time the video shorts are all about ranking on D&D.

[Psyren]

Nice bit of wordsmithing, that. :smallsmile:

:smallbiggrin:

To be clear though I think the concept is a decent niche, I was just being tongue-in-cheek!


I am sure everyone heard about the layoffs. At first I thought that they had finished most of the coding for the VTT and were cutting down on staff. Then I heard Mike Mearls got laid off...

From what I've seen, the response to that particular termination has been... let's call it mixed.


I continue to play D&D and use DND Beyond normally. A particular You Tube Gamer Personality I watch often, however, has had an averse reaction as he is a 3rd party publisher. He switched to running Pathfinder games, which is fine. He hates WOTC, which is fine. However, now every instructional and live video he does he has to rant against D&D the game at some point. He used to do scripted video shorts that spoofs a gaming table, stopped for awhile, and is now doing them again but this time the video shorts are all about ranking on D&D.

That sucks. I prefer the Pathfinder channels that promote their own game as opposed to crapping on D&D. (The Rules Lawyer sometimes straddles that line, but he's also open about the issues PF2 has.)

But I'll also point out that when the OGL hit, and a bunch of youtubers who swapped over to Pathfinder content like d4 and Pack Tactics, they abandoned it fairly quickly - each successive video apparently lost a lot of views, not to mention the effects of diluting their brand on the algorithm.

[Rynjin]

But I'll also point out that when the OGL hit, and a bunch of youtubers who swapped over to Pathfinder content like d4 and Pack Tactics, they abandoned it fairly quickly - each successive video apparently lost a lot of views, not to mention the effects of diluting their brand on the algorithm.

Well, you do mention it there. The dilution is likely the reason they lost (so many) views. ANY time a Youtuber changes their content even a little bit, the algorithm stops recommending them both to current subscribers and new users for a while. It's why so many Youtubers have become "trapped" as a Fortnite channel, a Minecraft channel, etc. If they start doing ANYTHING else they pretty much instantly lose 60-80% of their views for at least a month or two.

[Psyren]

Well, you do mention it there. The dilution is likely the reason they lost (so many) views. ANY time a Youtuber changes their content even a little bit, the algorithm stops recommending them both to current subscribers and new users for a while. It's why so many Youtubers have become "trapped" as a Fortnite channel, a Minecraft channel, etc. If they start doing ANYTHING else they pretty much instantly lose 60-80% of their views for at least a month or two.

Right, which is why they start secondary channels - e.g. Extra Credits starting up Extra History, KiraTV creating Kira, BellularTV dividing among MMO news vs games etc. But notably, they only do that when they believe the juice will be worth the squeeze. So far, I haven't seen that happen with any of the PF newcomers.

[Snowbluff]

I continue to play D&D and use DND Beyond normally. A particular You Tube Gamer Personality I watch often, however, has had an averse reaction as he is a 3rd party publisher. He switched to running Pathfinder games, which is fine. He hates WOTC, which is fine. However, now every instructional and live video he does he has to rant against D&D the game at some point. He used to do scripted video shorts that spoofs a gaming table, stopped for awhile, and is now doing them again but this time the video shorts are all about ranking on D&D.
Oh so exactly the problem I mentioned. It's a shame that this happens. I don't really enjoy watching DnD content to begin with, but I really can't stand extended griping about a game system that's really fine.


From what I've seen, the response to that particular termination has been... let's call it mixed.

Also to be fair, I understand he wasn't working on DnD anymore to begin with.

(The Rules Lawyer sometimes straddles that line, but he's also open about the issues PF2 has.)


TLR rubs me the wrong way much in the same way those "PF2 has to trick its audience" posts and articles. Given what one of the content creators who ran some games with him had to say, I'm not very fond.

[Rynjin]

Right, which is why they start secondary channels - e.g. Extra Credits starting up Extra History, KiraTV creating Kira, BellularTV dividing among MMO news vs games etc. But notably, they only do that when they believe the juice will be worth the squeeze. So far, I haven't seen that happen with any of the PF newcomers.

Or they're just not smart enough to. A lot of people just don't know about that facet of the algorithm. Or simply aren't confident a second channel would do well regardless; viewership between channels is never 100%. Eg. Josh Strife Hayes has 3 channels, with a 600k subscriber difference between one and the seconjd most popular.

[Psyren]

Or they're just not smart enough to. A lot of people just don't know about that facet of the algorithm. Or simply aren't confident a second channel would do well regardless; viewership between channels is never 100%. Eg. Josh Strife Hayes has 3 channels, with a 600k subscriber difference between one and the seconjd most popular.

I think most people who rely on YouTube for their livelihood figure out the algorithm fairly quickly. But even if that's the case and they're merely doubtful a PF2 channel would work for them even as a hedge, well, that says enough on its own.



TLR rubs me the wrong way much in the same way those "PF2 has to trick its audience" posts and articles. Given what one of the content creators who ran some games with him had to say, I'm not very fond.

Yeah that part is on the other side of the line for sure. It's sad because they always start those kinds of posts with the assumption that what PF2 is peddling is what D&D audiences want "deep down", never once acknowledging the sizeable contingent of us who couldn't care less about things like rigid balance.

[2D8HP]

Just wondering, almost a year on from WotC/Hasbro alienating tons of their customers with their OGL shenanigans, how much has your RPG diet changed?


I’m only dimly aware that there was some kind of kerfluffle, and I don’t really remember the details.



[…]

How is everyone else doing? If you were primarily playing 5e, have your habits changed? If you play non-D&D systems, have you seen an influx of interested new players?


The last WotC product that I really loved was Ghosts of Saltmarsh, I liked the artwork in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything but the content wasn’t memorable to me, I think the next (and last) WotC product that I bought was Candlekeep Mysteries, which is okay; the most recent TTRPG product I bought was the new Pendragon Starter Set, which is for an FRPG that I’ve loved since 1985 and I’m always interested in new content for.

I understand that there’s a 5.5 or 6e D&D coming out soon, I’ll most likely buy at least some of the rules for it, and what I see will determine if I buy more.

[glass]

I had not been giving WotC much money in recent years due to a combination of not being that impressed with 5e and not having had a lot of spare cash. So they did not have much to lose from me, but they still lost some. I am running the original 3.0 Adventure Path* (starting with The Sunless Citadel) from the hard copies, and for those chapters where I could easily find the maps online I had been buying the PDFs. I was also seriously considering buying a 5e DMG in January, out of curiosity.

The OGL debacle put paid to the DMG idea. But their partial climb-down (limited though it was) did lead to my buying one more PDF (and a movie ticket). Then the Pinkertons incident put the final nail in the coffin, and they have not had a penny from them since.

Still running the Sunless Citadel AP (interspersed with another player running Savage Tide and on hiatus for Christmas anyway), but I'm drawing my own maps (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/heart-of-nightfang-spire-maps.915553/)!


* Also known as PoA, although it doesn't have an official name other than "the Adventure Path". Obviously written for 3.0, but pretty easy to convert to PF1 on the fly.

[Duff]

My actual gaming is currently 1 5e game.
OTOH, WOC/Hasbro publishes exactly nothing I've bought since, and exactly nothing I'm thinking of buying is theirs.
My shopping list - Avatar the last airbender (for the kids, honest!), Feng Shui 2nd ed. Some Ars Magica stuff

[Psyren]

As for less anecdotal figures, Hasbro reported a 2 million bump in D&D Beyond subscriptions since the OGL stuff, during their Q2 earnings call. That was before Baldur's Gate 3 blew up. Now obviously, that success makes the recent layoffs sting even more, but it does suggest D&D will be at least fine in 2024 if not great.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, unfortunately people are stupid and heinous corporations like Hasbro always profit from that.

[Psyren]

"People are stupid" applies as much to the outraged ones as it does to the apathetic.

I'm reminded of how EA keeps getting voted worst company in America and I'm like... really? Yeah lootboxes and Madden suck and all, but like, there's companies out there literally hoarding insulin and running prisons and funding PMCs etc. EA and Hasbro are extremely small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.

[Rynjin]

"People are stupid" applies as much to the outraged ones as it does to the apathetic.

I'm reminded of how EA keeps getting voted worst company in America and I'm like... really? Yeah lootboxes and Madden suck and all, but like, there's companies out there literally hoarding insulin and running prisons and funding PMCs etc. EA and Hasbro are extremely small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.

"Other companies are worse" doesn't mean Hasbro is good. Thankfully I have the mental bandwidth to care about more than one thing at a time, and an infinite capacity to...not spend money unless I like a product and/or company.

Hasbro/WotC made a move to fundamentally, negatively shift the landscape of my favorite hobby. They also treat their employees like ****. Turns out I can care about both of those things and take pretty effective action by simply...not opening my wallet and enjoying the fact that I now have more money.

[Psyren]

My point is that caring about the "goodness" of any corporation is in my view a bit silly, hobby corporations especially so. I spend money on D&D because I want to support the creatives who remain that make it, but the main reason is that they're selling something that I want. When those two things stop being the case, I won't. As transactions go, it doesn't get simpler than that.

[Rynjin]

My point is that caring about the "goodness" of any corporation is in my view a bit silly, hobby corporations especially so. I spend money on D&D because I want to support the creatives who remain that make it, but the main reason is that they're selling something that I want. When those two things stop being the case, I won't. As transactions go, it doesn't get simpler than that.

Well the big thing is they aren't selling anything I want. As well we have different philosophies on the creatives; in my mind the creatives are not the company. If they work for a company who is doing things I don't like, it is in my best interest for the company to lose money and/or fail, so those creatives go somewhere else.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah that part is on the other side of the line for sure. It's sad because they always start those kinds of posts with the assumption that what PF2 is peddling is what D&D audiences want "deep down", never once acknowledging the sizeable contingent of us who couldn't care less about things like rigid balance.
"The child yearns for PF2" is something I've unironically heard in the wild. The supposed moral grounds always gets me too. Paizo has been a terrible company for several years, so at best you'd be making a lateral move there.

"People are stupid" applies as much to the outraged ones as it does to the apathetic.

I'm reminded of how EA keeps getting voted worst company in America and I'm like... really? Yeah lootboxes and Madden suck and all, but like, there's companies out there literally hoarding insulin and running prisons and funding PMCs etc. EA and Hasbro are extremely small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.
Yep. On top of that, there are people losing their minds over standard business practices because they lack the context of a situation, or even because the context has specifically omitted by smaller companies in order to manipulate the public to there ends. People love an underdog story, so as soon as long as your company is only at best second best, people will treat you like a sacred cow and will do anything to defend you.

It should be noted if we were to boycott every company that has had layoffs, I would be playing basically no games right now. And then those companies would probably have to lay off more people.

Well the big thing is they aren't selling anything I want. As well we have different philosophies on the creatives; in my mind the creatives are not the company. If they work for a company who is doing things I don't like, it is in my best interest for the company to lose money and/or fail, so those creatives go somewhere else.
Asking people to lose their jobs over a deal that never went through comes off as incredibly myopic.

[Psyren]

Paizo is less bad than WotC (and definitely less bad than Hasbro), but they're a corporation too, albeit a private one.

If the WotC staff who remain decide to unionize and crowdfund I will gladly pitch in for that. it's the best way to keep any corporation in check. But we're straying into current events.

[glass]

My point is that caring about the "goodness" of any corporation is in my view a bit silly"Caring about goodness" might encourage companies to improve (and at the very least is not going to make them worse).

Not caring can only encourage them to get worse.


The supposed moral grounds always gets me too. Paizo has been a terrible company for several years, so at best you'd be making a lateral move there.Hogwash.

Paizo have had their workplace issues, but seems to be making a good-faith effort to address them. WotC/Hasbro have also had workplace issues (even aside from the whole Christmas layoffs thing), and the whole OGL debacle and setting thugs on a fan on top of that. Paizo is a much better company than Hasbro, ethically speaking.

PMCs are worse? Well maybe, but I don't buy their services either....

[Psyren]

"Caring about goodness" might encourage companies to improve (and at the very least is not going to make them worse).

Not caring can only encourage them to get worse.

Not operating under the assumption that corporations can be made benevolent if we just wish hard enough for them to fail doesn't mean doing nothing.

[Lemmy]

Boycotting a company because they don't align with your personal preferences and views is a perfectly sound and valid strategy. If enough people do it, it can have a very significant impact on the company... I'd cite some big recent examples, but I fear they might be too close to breaking forum rules.

"Every company is evil, so I'll just buy their product and ignore their ethics" is exactly the kind of thought that foster unethical behavior.

We can't change everything, but we can change *some* things.

There are products and companies that are essential to our lives and/or have sadly few alternatives (or none whatsoever). Hasbro isn't one of them.

Now, if you want to still support Hasbro, no matter what they do or have done... Well... You do you! Life is short. Buy what you want. Enjoy what you enjoy... But don't try to claim that it's pointless to boycott them or that every company is as bad as them (and I say this as someone who hasn't liked Paizo in years).

[Psyren]

I never said "every company is as bad as them." And I'm certainly not telling anyone else what they should do with their money or time.

[Rynjin]

Asking people to lose their jobs over a deal that never went through comes off as incredibly myopic.

I didn't ask for them to lose their jobs, but I'm also not going to lose sleep over people losing their jobs because I chose not to pay for a product or to a company I have no interest in. I am not morally obligated to prop up a specific company for the wellbeing of its workers, else I would swiftly be bankrupt.

[Snowbluff]

Hogwash.

Paizo have had their workplace issues, but seems to be making a good-faith effort to address them. WotC/Hasbro have also had workplace issues (even aside from the whole Christmas layoffs thing), and the whole OGL debacle and setting thugs on a fan on top of that. Paizo is a much better company than Hasbro, ethically speaking.

PMCs are worse? Well maybe, but I don't buy their services either....

You saying that it is is proving my previous point almost exactly. Paizo has perennial problem with harrassment, the staff took some steps, and you say it's a good faith effort. WotC never publishes a bad agreement, back tracks and releases content out from under their control, you still use it as a point against them. The standard is strongly double, and this double standard has lead to a lot of harassment of WotC staff, even over imagined sleights.

And this has continuing effects. The whole "Christmas Layoffs" is a bit of mythology in and off itself. Staff did get severance. Dillon and Stephens seem to consider the timing something perfectly normal. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SfXA_sSkDo&t=1944s) As they put it, there is no good time for a layoff. Basically every company I engage with had lay offs this year, which sucks but it's ordinary.

Now, I am 100% on board for giving it to them for hiring Pinkertons. Am I against following up a contractual violation of a vendor? No. Am I against goons (too close to a PMC maybe)? Yes. I don't buy MTG cards.


I didn't ask for them to lose their jobs, but I'm also not going to lose sleep over people losing their jobs because I chose not to pay for a product or to a company I have no interest in. I am not morally obligated to prop up a specific company for the wellbeing of its workers, else I would swiftly be bankrupt.

Sure, but you did make it sound like it is better for you that they get fired. The wording was weird but this clarification is much better.

[Psyren]

You saying that it is is proving my previous point almost exactly. Paizo has perennial problem with harrassment, the staff took some steps, and you say it's a good faith effort. WotC never publishes a bad agreement, back tracks and releases content out from under their control, you still use it as a point against them. The standard is strongly double, and this double standard has lead to a lot of harassment of WotC staff, even over imagined sleights.

And this has continuing effects. The whole "Christmas Layoffs" is a bit of mythology in and off itself. Staff did get severance. Dillon and Stephens seem to consider the timing something perfectly normal. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SfXA_sSkDo&t=1944s) As they put it, there is no good time for a layoff. Basically every company I engage with had lay offs this year, which sucks but it's ordinary.

Thanks a ton for linking this; I was really happy to hear directly from the folks affected. After listening to it, I feel a lot better about continuing to feel optimistic about the 2024 books. Dan and Eytan are understandably sad about being let go, but they both still great about D&D, the work of their colleagues who remain inside, and what is coming down the pipeline.'

Eytan and Dan reiterating that they do in fact read through ALL the written feedback is nice to hear too. And of course, confirmation that they can't talk about the contents of their severance packages, beyond confirming that they did indeed receive some.

[Snowbluff]

Thanks a ton for linking this; I was really happy to hear directly from the folks affected. After listening to it, I feel a lot better about continuing to feel optimistic about the 2024 books. Dan and Eytan are understandably sad about being let go, but they both still great about D&D, the work of their colleagues who remain inside, and what is coming down the pipeline.'

Eytan and Dan reiterating that they do in fact read through ALL the written feedback is nice to hear too. And of course, confirmation that they can't talk about the contents of their severance packages, beyond confirming that they did indeed receive some.

You're welcome. I try to bring in insightful information when I can. Interviews and the like have been doing a great job expanding my understanding about the process during this playtest period. :smallbiggrin:

Something that always strikes me about these creators is this sense of camaraderie they give off. As you mention with the controversy (I guess is what I'll call it, it was very thoroughly debunked) about going over survey material, just about everyone who had worked for the company stepped forward and defended the work of the people who handle it.

I would like to see the inner workings over the past year of course, out of intellectual curiosity. Like they mentioned with the TSR layoffs, it might be some time before we get all of the details, however. That's the thing with these sort of opaque operations, we don't really get all of the details. Once any controversy blows over, you just never hear anything new ever again.

[Psyren]

You're welcome. I try to bring in insightful information when I can. Interviews and the like have been doing a great job expanding my understanding about the process during this playtest period. :smallbiggrin:

Something that always strikes me about these creators is this sense of camaraderie they give off. As you mention with the controversy (I guess is what I'll call it, it was very thoroughly debunked) about going over survey material, just about everyone who had worked for the company stepped forward and defended the work of the people who handle it.

I can't imagine how livid I'd be if I was tasked with reading every single survey comment as my day job, only to hear DnDShorts or whoever hopping on Twitter to spurt out that they heard a rumor from a friend of a friend of a friend that everyone in my department is just throwing the comments in the bin and watching a bunch of perpetually outraged voices run hither and yon with that misinformation.


I would like to see the inner workings over the past year of course, out of intellectual curiosity. Like they mentioned with the TSR layoffs, it might be some time before we get all of the details, however. That's the thing with these sort of opaque operations, we don't really get all of the details. Once any controversy blows over, you just never hear anything new ever again.

There might not be a lot to say - as per the link itself, they didn't see anything out of the ordinary with these particular layoffs.

As for the severance packages, while we don't know any details, I suspect that if they were insulting or meagre someone would have broken ranks to spill the beans about them.

[glass]

Not operating under the assumption that corporations can be made benevolent if we just wish hard enough for them to fail doesn't mean doing nothing."Voting with one's wallet" != "wishing hard", and "less aweful" != "benevolent".


You saying that it is is proving my previous point almost exactly. Paizo has perennial problem with harrassment, the staff took some steps, and you say it's a good faith effort. WotC never publishes a bad agreement, back tracks and releases content out from under their control, you still use it as a point against them. The standard is strongly double, and this double standard has lead to a lot of harassment of WotC staff, even over imagined sleights.Once again, hogwash.

The specifics are outside the scope of this forum, but I made the comment I made for a reason. No double standards were involved.


And this has continuing effects. The whole "Christmas Layoffs" is a bit of mythology in and off itself. Staff did get severance. Dillon and Stephens seem to consider the timing something perfectly normal. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SfXA_sSkDo&t=1944s) As they put it, there is no good time for a layoff. Basically every company I engage with had lay offs this year, which sucks but it's ordinary.So they didn't just announce plans to lay off a bunch of people? They did? Again? Then not mythology!

[catagent101]

I can't double check atm so take this with a grain of salt but iirc the Paizo thing is also complicated by the fact that a decent chunk of the upper management left once the union was recognized, some of which were hired by WotC.

[Witty Username]

I have most of the books I want, I think I bought Spelljammer since but I don't remember if I got that one a little bit before that.
Other RPG stuff I have been eyeing a copy of Scion: Dragon lately. I don't recall when I bought my copy of Blades in the Dark, and I bought a friend the Avatar RPG.

But I wasn't really bothered by the OGL stuff after they made a less restrictive version of it, that is harder for them to modify.

The layoffs are more concerning, but also Hasbro is pretty low in my estimations already.

I have suspected but can't prove the Pinkertons were Hasbro's doing. Wotc has had a few prior similar incidents that were resolved very differently.

Its an EA/Bioware situation to me, I have some respect for Bioware, none for EA. It is kinda the same for Hasbro and Wotc, I trust D&Ds and MTGs design teams to at least be attempting. But corporate, which feels often like Hasbro is the master hand, I assume active hostility at this point.


I will buy other RPG stuff, but I am also an RPG collector, so I do that a bunch anyway.

[Pauly]

My regular group are not and have not been interested in D&D for a long time. The whole OGL kerfuffle for us was faint noise like a thunderstorm hitting a town over the horizon.

Since the OGL issue we have not had a sudden influx of souls wanting to be saved from all things D&D. It’s been the same old regular drip drip drip if people unsatisfied with the D&D experience coming and asking for advice and eventually one or two will attach to our group. Most end up staying with D&D because it’s the game their friends play. We encourage them to try and get their groups to try other systems but most groups have one or two players who insist on only playing D&D and will not consider any other system under any circumstances.

For our group in the outside looking in nothing changed.

[Easy e]

Well, I personally was never that invested in D&D (and 5e) so the OGL debacle didn't do much for me personally. However, it did allow space for some of my long-running group to want to try something other than D&D.

We managed to play a short Legends of the 5 Rings campaign and a short Avatar: The Last Airbender (PbtA) campaign. They had fun BUT it caused the other half of the group to double down on wanting to only play 5e, and limited their interest in other systems.

So, net no real change. We are stuck back in 5e because some group members do not want to expand beyond what they all ready "know".

[Mothman]

As soon as the news hit I sold my 5e books to my LGS, and used the in store credit to snag a box of warhammer miniatures and a copy of Hackmaster. I have been the #1 5e hater for years and being able to coax my IRL group to try anything else was an absolute blessing.

I ran Lancer for my friends and they seemed to enjoy it enough. But with the announcement of the PF2e remaster it got my DM to try his hand at PF2e and we're currently four dead player characters into Abomination Vaults.

Hopefully, we never look back.

[Flashkannon]

The OGL debacle put paid to the DMG idea. But their partial climb-down (limited though it was) did lead to my buying one more PDF (and a movie ticket). Then the Pinkertons incident put the final nail

WotC/Hasbro have also had workplace issues (even aside from the whole Christmas layoffs thing), and the whole OGL debacle and setting thugs on a fan on top of that. Paizo is a much better company than Hasbro, ethically speaking.

PMCs are worse? Well maybe, but I don't buy their services either....
About sums up my feelings. I've been a big 5e fan since early on, but Hasbro earned my active suspicion and lost my goodwill with the OGL incident. They backed down, so I was willing to keep buying books and minis, but the Pinkertons really were a fly in my craw - of all things, the Pinkertons! The original strikebreakers.

Since then it's been gaffe after gaffe with the AI art and the descriptions in BGG... I've lost faith in them to act with any kind of ethics and to provide a product worth playing. Still, most of my games are 5e, and it'd be hard to convert them. Or get my friends to try anything else. I recently invested in Mutants and Masterminds and Blades in the Dark manuals, so with any luck I might be able to drum up something in those departments.

[Duff]

About sums up my feelings. I've been a big 5e fan since early on, but Hasbro earned my active suspicion and lost my goodwill with the OGL incident. They backed down, so I was willing to keep buying books and minis, but the Pinkertons really were a fly in my craw - of all things, the Pinkertons! The original strikebreakers.

Since then it's been gaffe after gaffe with the AI art and the descriptions in BGG... I've lost faith in them to act with any kind of ethics and to provide a product worth playing. Still, most of my games are 5e, and it'd be hard to convert them. Or get my friends to try anything else. I recently invested in Mutants and Masterminds and Blades in the Dark manuals, so with any luck I might be able to drum up something in those departments.

Good luck with converting your group.
And, yes, hiring the Pinkertons really is a Big Red Flag about what to expect of a company's ethics.
And what's written of the flag is "We ain't even pretending we aint the bad guys"

[purepolarpanzer]

My local group are a bunch of grognards (I say this lovingly) and I was the only one to show a lot of interest in 5e. Post OGL, I sold my 5e books, recognized a lot of flaws that I perceived in the system, and began expanding my horizons into other games. I'm a part-time paid GM, and I've moved my business away from 5e, a risky move, since 90% of paid games on the site I use are 5e. However, I'm really happy to be buying/playing new systems. Between low quality books, multiple scandals, and quite frankly a system that just isn't very deep, I've had more fun playing/running PF2e, Fate, Cyberpunk, a few PBtA games, and some even more obscure indies than I did for the last few years of my 5e lifespan.

[taleteller50]

Any company, once it gets large enough, is going to lose track of what made something great. It's even worse when an IP is bought by another company because, more often then not, the buyer is only interested in the money they can make from an IP rather then the creativity behind the property.

Hasbro didn't buy WotC because they liked Magic or D&D; they bought it because they knew they could make money off it. Problem is that companies like that always think they should be making more money then what is possible with a product and when they are only making millions rather then billions they blame the product or their creative teams rather then the $h!tty changes management insist is important. Never realizing that it's those decisions that is ruining the good will that the product already has and further driving the IP into the ground.

I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason why writers were layed off is because someone high on the Hasbro ladder learned that they could use an AI chat bot to write most of their books and keep what they would have paid their writers for the investors.

Yes, creating interesting and new ideas can be expensive, sometimes all your profits just goes into the next round of writing rather then paying high dividends to your investors/managerial team. But that's how you keep an IP fresh and exciting. Problem is that without a certain amount of cash you can't get an actual good idea out to the market.

Worse yet, many great ideas languish on the vine because someone with a bigger bank book floods the market with a cheaper, less impressive version/idea. More people choose the lesser version because it's the one with the most coverage and can reach a larger market. They never even give the superior product a chance because they already have something that fills that niche and/or become disillusioned with the idea because they used the lesser version first.

Maybe I'm just becoming synical in my old age but when you keep seeing the same pattern over and over, you start to wonder.

[Trafalgar]

Hasbro didn't buy WotC because they liked Magic or D&D; they bought it because they knew they could make money off it. Problem is that companies like that always think they should be making more money then what is possible with a product and when they are only making millions rather then billions they blame the product or their creative teams rather then the $h!tty changes management insist is important. Never realizing that it's those decisions that is ruining the good will that the product already has and further driving the IP into the ground.

I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason why writers were layed off is because someone high on the Hasbro ladder learned that they could use an AI chat bot to write most of their books and keep what they would have paid their writers for the investors.


In 2023, WOTC, specifically MTG and D&D, made a profit. The rest of Hasbro operated at a loss. The fact that Hasbro is willing to lay off workers from profitable divisions and IPs that probably have the most room for growth isn't a good sign, especially if they did it just to allay the shareholder's fears.

It makes me wonder about the new edition and the VTT. If they are not as popular as Hasbro hopes, will they just cut their losses and run?