PDA

View Full Version : Bad CR?



Ramos
2007-12-12, 03:48 AM
I've been looking over the Elder Evil excerpts at wizards and I think someone was seriously drunk when working out the CR.


This is CR 20-the same CR as the Balor despite having twice the HP, a crapload of immunities, spellcasting as an 18th lvl sorceror and impassable DR and regeneration (for 20th lvl PCs that is)

Worm that Walks
hp 475 (25 HD); regeneration 10; DR 15/epic and good
CE Huge aberration
Init +6; Senses blind, blindsight 500 ft., true seeing; Listen +54
Aura frightful presence (60 ft., DC 32)
Languages telepathy 1,000 ft., tongues

AC 38, touch 30, flat-footed 36
Immune anathematic secrecy (malefic property), electricity, gaze attacks, illusions, visual effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, critical hits, flanking, elder evil immunities (page 6)
Resist cold 20, fire 20; SR 32
Fort +19, Ref +10, Will +20

Speed 50 ft. (10 squares), burrow 50 ft., climb 50 ft., swim 50 ft.
Melee 2 slams +36 each (4d6+20/19-20)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +18; Grp +46
Atk Options Power Attack, epic strike, worm-smite
Special Actions create spawn, discorporate, frightful presence, summon scion
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 18th; 1d20+22 to overcome SR):
9th (3/day) -- dominate monster (DC 28)
8th (6/day) -- avascular mass[SC] (+18 ranged touch, DC 26), greater arcane fusion[CM]
7th (7/day) -- banishment (DC 25), insanity (DC 26), waves of exhaustion
6th (7/day) -- chain lightning (DC 24), disintegrate (+18 ranged touch), greater dispel magic
5th (7/day) -- feeblemind (DC 24), hold monster (DC 24), miasma of entropy[SC] (DC 23), mind fog (DC 23)
4th (8/day) -- enervation (+18 ranged touch), Evard's black tentacles, greater invisibility, ice storm
3rd (8/day) -- blink, haste, lightning bolt (DC 21), protection from energy
2nd (8/day) -- bull's strength, cat's grace, detect thoughts (DC 20), false life, shatter (DC 20)
1st (8/day) -- chill touch (+36 melee touch, DC 19), expeditious retreat, mage armor, shield, true strike
0 (6/day) -- arcane mark, detect magic, ghost sound (DC 18), mage hand, message, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic, touch of fatigue (+36 melee touch, DC 18)
Abilities Str 50, Dex 15, Con 32, Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 27
SQ nondetection, sign (infestation)
Feats Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Spell Focus (enchantment), Spell Penetration, Sudden Empower[CAr]*, Sudden Maximize[CAr]*, Sudden Widen[CAr]*
* These feats allow the Worm that Walks to apply the effect of Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, and Widen Spell each once per day without increasing casting time.
Skills Balance +22, Climb +28, Concentration +39, Escape Artist +50, Hide +42, Jump +28, Listen +54, Move Silently +50, Spellcraft +24, Use Rope +2 (+6 bindings)

True Seeing (Su) As the true seeing spell; continuous; caster level 20th.
Frightful Presence (Su) The Worm that Walks inspires terror whenever it uses its wormsmite. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 30 Will save or become shaken, remaining so as long as they stay within 60 feet of the Worm that Walks. A creature that saves cannot be affected by the Worm's frightful presence for 24 hours.
Tongues (Su) As the tongues spell; continuous; caster level 20th.
Worm-Smite (Ex) Once every 5 rounds, the Worm that Walks can make a standard melee attack to deliver a worm-smite. A creature struck by this attack must succeed on a DC 33 Reflex save or become covered in ravenous worms. On the Worm's next turn and every turn thereafter, the target takes 10d8 points of slashing damage as the worms consume the victim's flesh and burrow into its organs. The worms remain until destroyed or removed -- or until the target is slain, indicating the worms have devoured their victim.
A target can use a full-round action to attempt to remove the worms. Escaping requires a DC 33 Reflex save. Rolling on the ground -- and thus crushing the worms -- provides a +2 circumstance bonus on the save. Dealing at least 20 points of fire damage destroys the worms, but deals the same amount of damage to the victim as well. Conjuration (teleportation) spells or spell-like effects can also extricate the target from the worm-smite. The save DCs are Constitution-based. Constructs, elementals, oozes, and creatures of the incorporeal subtype are immune to this ability.
Create Spawn (Su) A humanoid or monstrous humanoid of Medium or smaller size killed by the Worm that Walks rises after 1d4 rounds as a spawn of Kyuss (MM2 186) under the Worm's control. It does not possess any of the abilities it had in life.
Discorporate (Ex) As an immediate action, the Worm that Walks can discorporate, collapsing into a pile of slithering vermin. There's one Fine worm (AC 20, 1 hp each) for each hit point the Worm that Walks possessed prior to discorporating. In the round it uses this ability, the worms fall to the ground, filling the Worm's space. Unless each worm is destroyed within 1 round, the writhing worms burrow into the earth or slither away using the Worm's various forms of movement. As long as any component vermin survives, the Worm that Walks can, within 24 hours, breed and create a new body to house its malicious essence.
Summon Scion (Sp) The Worm that Walks can summon a scion of Kyuss (see page 140) up to three times per day. This effect is the equivalent of an epic spell. The scion remains for up to 1 hour.
Anathematic Secrecy (Su) The Worm that Walks is immune to all divine divination spell effects.
Nondetection (Su) As the nondetection spell, always active; caster level 20th.

Skills The Worm that Walks has a +20 racial bonus on Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Listen, and Move Silently checks.



This is CR 23. It has higher HP than a great wurm gold dragon, an insane amount of immunities and pretty powerful special abilities not to mention very very powerful meele. And it has the same CR as the poor Solar that has a quarter of its HP and no immunities.


Aspect of Atropus CR 23
hp 858 (66 HD); fast healing 20; DR 15/epic and good
LE Gargantuan undead (evil)
Init +5; Senses blind, blindsight 500 ft., true seeing; Listen +76
Aura negative energy (30 ft.)
Languages telepathy 1,000 ft., tongues

AC 43, touch 15, flat-footed 42; Dodge, Mobility
Immune anathematic secrecy (malefic property), cold, gaze attacks, elder evil immunities (page 6), undead immunities (MM 317)
Resist acid 20, fire 20, positive energy 10; SR 34
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +25, Will +42
Speed 50 ft. (10 squares); Spring Attack
Melee 2 slams +54 each (4d8+24/19-20 [on critical hit, death (Fort DC 67 negates) plus 1d6 Con drain plus energy drain)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 20 ft.
Base Atk +33; Grp +69
Atk Options Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Powerful Charge, Whirlwind Attack, aligned strike (evil, lawful), Constitution drain, energy drain, epic strike
Special Actions call meteor shower, create spawn, divine scourge (malefic property)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th):
At will -- blight (+53 melee touch, DC 25), circle of death (DC 26), create greater undead
3/day -- quickened circle of death (DC 26), meteor swarm (DC 29), waves of exhaustion
1/day -- symbol of death (DC 28), wail of the banshee (DC 29)
Abilities Str 58, Dex 13, Con --, Int 25, Wis 24, Cha 31
SQ nondetection, sign (restless dead)
Feats Ability Focus (energy drain), Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Devastating Critical (slam)[ELH] (DC 67), Dodge, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Improved Toughness[LM], Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Overwhelming Critical (slam)[ELH], Positive Energy Resistance[LM], Power Attack, Powerful Charge, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (circle of death), Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (slam), Whirlwind Attack
Skills Balance +70, Climb +93, Concentration +69, Escape Artist +70, Hide +58, Intimidate +79, Jump +32, Knowledge (arcana) +76, Knowledge (religion) +76, Listen +76, Move Silently +70, Spellcraft +86, Use Rope +1 (+9 bindings)

True Seeing (Su) As the true seeing spell; continuous; caster level 20th.
Negative Energy Aura (Su) All undead creatures within 30 feet gain +5 turn resistance and fast healing 5, while all living creatures gain five negative levels for as long as they remain in the area unless they have some protection against negative energy effects. Living creatures that have 5 or fewer Hit Dice are slain and rise as spectres after 1d4 rounds.
Tongues (Su) As the tongues spell; continuous; caster level 20th.
Constitution Drain (Su) Living creatures hit by the aspect of Atropus's slam attack must succeed on a DC 53 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. On each such successful attack, the aspect of Atropus gains 5 temporary hit points. These temporary hit points last for up to 1 hour, and an aspect of Atropus can gain a maximum number of temporary hit points equal to its normal hit point total.
Energy Drain (Su) Living creatures hit by the aspect of Atropus's slam attack gain three negative levels. The DC is 55 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. For each negative level bestowed, the aspect of Atropus gains 5 temporary hit points. There temporary hit points last for up to 1 hour, and an aspect of Atropus can gain a maximum number of temporary hit points equal to its full normal hit point total.
Call Meteor Shower (Su) The aspect of Atropus can sacrifice 50 hit points to call down a torrent of meteors. All creatures (including the aspect of Atropus) within a 100-foot radius take 10d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 10d6 points of fire damage. A DC 53 Reflex save halves this damage. After the meteor shower each square in the area becomes difficult terrain and costs 2 squares of movement to enter.
Create Spawn (Su) A living creature of size Huge or smaller slain by the aspect of Atropus becomes an angel of decay (see page 30) in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the aspect of Atropus and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.
Divine Scourge (Su) Once per day as a swift action, the aspect of Atropus can cause all divine spellcasters and extraplanar outsiders within a 1,000-mile radius to become sickened for 1d4 hours. An affected creature must succeed on a DC 53 Fortitude save or take 66 points of vile damage.
Anathematic Secrecy (Su) The aspect of Atropus is immune to all divine divination spell effects.
Nondetection (Su) As the nondetection spell; continuous; caster level 20th.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-12-12, 04:00 AM
... impassable DR ... (for 20th lvl PCs that is)

The DR is not impassable, you just need a say +4 Holy Aberration Bane weapon. :smallamused:

The_Snark
2007-12-12, 04:02 AM
I rather suspect that these are intentionally under-CRed. Rather than saying these are CR 20 (or 23), I think the players are intended to fight them when they're level 20 (or 23). They're intended to be the climactic encounter, and as impressive as a balor is, fighting one at level 20 is often not all that climactic; therefore, the aspects are more powerful.

So in this case, CR isn't the right label, I think.

Ramos
2007-12-12, 04:05 AM
Then give them a CR 3-4 points higher (as they should have) and note that DMs should use them as Overwhelming encounters (one out of 13 encounters should be at CR+5 in a campaign) for lower level PCs.


The DR is not impassable, you just need a +4 Aberration Bane weapon. :smallamused:


Nope. You need a blessed +4 aberration bane weapon. Just epic won't cut it.

Ramos
2007-12-12, 04:06 AM
sry. double-post

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-12-12, 04:08 AM
Nope. You need a blessed +4 aberration bane weapon. Just epic won't cut it.

But still possible for ECL 20 characters.

tyckspoon
2007-12-12, 04:21 AM
They are under-CR'd, but these are also the kind of things you're supposed to be fighting as the endcap to a campaign or adventure arc, I believe. If you're encountering epic monsters as random encounters, your DM hates you (or you're being amazingly lax about your scouting.) A party isn't actually intended to fight these kinds of monsters until they've found out what they're facing, what they need to kill it, buffed to heck and back (and secured those +4 Holy Bane weapons), and if possible chosen their own ground to fight on. The Worm would still be a hard battle under those conditions, but it should be possible.

The Aspect, on the other hand.. well, it's in Epic. Spellcasters get a huge boost at 21; Epic Spellcasting rules the game, especially with creative players. Even without that, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a way for a Cleric to Turn it out of existance. And if it doesn't have nat-1 failure protection, you could just pummel it with Disrupting slingstones until it blew a save.

Setra
2007-12-12, 05:27 AM
But still possible for ECL 20 characters.
Well that includes a level 20 Wizard so...

AslanCross
2007-12-12, 06:04 AM
Since these are climactic encounters with the whole campaign designed around them, I'm pretty sure that the PCs will be very well prepared for the encounter. This isn't something that pops out of the wall when you open a chest.

Furthermore, it's highly likely you won't be bringing only 4 people against these beasties. You'll need a fairly-sized party, and even just 6 Lv 20 characters can definitely take these guys down. Especially if they include Lv 20 Wizards and Clerics.

Renx
2007-12-12, 06:58 AM
This isn't something that pops out of the wall when you open a chest.

Now I'm imagining the chest. Thanks :smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-12, 07:01 AM
That chest would probably have the ring of Pun-Punism.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-12, 07:09 AM
Honestly, DR 15 isn't that bad. It just makes the fight tougher, that's all.

All that being said... those things are pretty tough.

RTGoodman
2007-12-12, 07:19 AM
Apparently they're just remaking monsters now, because that's completely different from the Worm That Walks in the Epic part of the SRD. It's here (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicNonAbominations.html#worm-that-walks), and is a CR 26, and seems a lot weaker.

Swordguy
2007-12-12, 07:25 AM
I'd eyeball them at 24 and 27, respectively. The slam attack critical hit on the second one is particuraly vicious, dealing 3 negative levels, 1d6 Con drain, AND a Fort DC67 Death effect (just after you've lost 3 levels and 1-6 Con as well). You might as well tell melee'ers to go back home.

Oh, and the sicken effect just screws the party divine caster who tries to buff anyone or bring them back from the dead during the fight. :smallamused:

martyboy74
2007-12-12, 07:59 AM
Can someone point out where the Worm's SR is? I can't seem to find it, and it's saves aren't all that good.

Fixer
2007-12-12, 08:17 AM
Can someone point out where the Worm's SR is? I can't seem to find it, and it's saves aren't all that good.
To the right of Resistances, just above saves.

Gah! Why are the forums so slow today?

Swordguy
2007-12-12, 08:32 AM
Can someone point out where the Worm's SR is? I can't seem to find it, and it's saves aren't all that good.

WTW's SR is a 32.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-12, 02:06 PM
Just for giggles I made up a minion for the WTW. Actually, it's CR is so low you could toss 2 of them at the party...

PSEUDOPEDE
{table] |Colossal Outsider (extraplanar)
Hit Dice: |24d8+24 (360 hp)
Initiative: |+10
Speed: |80 ft. (16 squares), climb 80 ft.
Armor Class: |44 (–8 size, +7 Dex, +35 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 27
Base Attack/Grapple: |+18/+53
Attack: |Tentacle rake +44 melee (3d8+19)
Full Attack: |7 tentacle rakes +44 melee (3d8+19)
Space/Reach: |30 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: |Poison, constant insight, improved grab, rotting constriction, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: |Darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits, electricity & acid resistance 40, DR 15/epic, SR 120, alternate form
Saves: |Fort +20, Ref +14, Will +15
Abilities: |Str 49, Dex 23, Con 22, Int 3, Wis 20, Cha 2
Skills: |Climb +27, Hide +10, Spot +21
Feats: |Combat Reflexes, Dire Charge (epic), Improved Critical (tentacle), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (tentacle), Improved Toughness, Iron Will
Environment: |Underground
Organization: |Solitary
Challenge Rating: |19[/table]

A mass of gigantic tentalces and gnashing teeth charges out of the darkness at you.

Alternate Form (Ex): Ooh, it looks scary. -1 morale to all attacks against it.

Constant Insight (Su): The creature makes all its attacks with a +15 insight bonus. The creature is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.

Improved Grab (Ex): If the creature hits an opponent smaller than it with a tentacle, it deals normal Damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Rotting Constriction (Ex): Once the creature has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check it makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, the creature regains 10 lost hit points.

Spell-Like Abilities: Caster level 20th. The DCs are Charisma-based.
At will - blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow.

It was a Colossal Centipede, then add Pseudonatural Template. It has poison in it's natural form. And only 1 attack. Guess what form it stays in?

Titanium Dragon
2007-12-12, 06:26 PM
The CR looks roughly appropriate to me... Have you actually playtested the encounter?

Da Beast
2007-12-12, 06:33 PM
Step 1: take a creature with low hit dice (preferably with a fly speed)
Step 2: Pile templates on it until it has a huge movement speed and can make devastating attacks on a partial charge
Step 3: Add the zombie template which resets CR based on hit dice rather than actual abilities.

I'm away from my books right now so I can't build anything specific, but if done right you should have a CR 1 (or lower) creature that can (partial) charge down and kill characters several levels above it with in a few hundred feet.

AslanCross
2007-12-12, 06:43 PM
Apparently they're just remaking monsters now, because that's completely different from the Worm That Walks in the Epic part of the SRD. It's here (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicNonAbominations.html#worm-that-walks), and is a CR 26, and seems a lot weaker.

I think the Worm That Walks being depicted here is based on the Demigod Kyuss as he appeared in the Age of Worms adventure, where he looks like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/AslanCross/DnDCampaign/Kyuss.jpg

WrstDmEvr
2007-12-12, 08:30 PM
Step 1: take a creature with low hit dice (preferably with a fly speed)
Step 2: Pile templates on it until it has a huge movement speed and can make devastating attacks on a partial charge
Step 3: Add the zombie template which resets CR based on hit dice rather than actual abilities.

I'm away from my books right now so I can't build anything specific, but if done right you should have a CR 1 (or lower) creature that can (partial) charge down and kill characters several levels above it with in a few hundred feet.

No, what you do is add on a bunch on templates that give good ability increases. For example, take a kobold and add the vampire template. Then add Paragon. Then add Pseudonatural. Then zombie. Total =

AC is 92
Str 54, Dex 40, Con -, Int -, Cha 1, Wis 10.
48 hp
Natural weapons treated as epic for DR.
+ 48 attack
+ 20 damage
CR = 1/2.

I'll write up a full stat table later when i have more time, but it has all these(and more)

EDIT: I don't think vampire can be applied anyway.

Forrestfire
2007-12-12, 09:28 PM
[QUOTE=WrstDmEvr;3651161]No, what you do is add on a bunch on templates that give good ability increases. For example, take a kobold and add the vampire template. Then add Paragon. Then add Pseudonatural. Then zombie. Total =

AC is 92
Str 54, Dex 40, Con -, Int -, Cha 1, Wis 10.
48 hp
Natural weapons treated as epic for DR.
+ 48 attack
+ 20 damage
CR = 1/2.
[QUOTE]


add the paragon template on another 999 times and...


Psudonatural, (Paragon^1000) kobold
Size/Type: Small undead
Hit Dice: 2d12 (12 hp)
Initiative: +755
Speed: 60^3000ft. (12^3000 squares)
Armor Class: 5,833 (+1 size, +760 Dex, +5036 natural, +2 leather, +12 luck, +12 insight), touch 5,831, flat-footed 5,072
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+756
Attack: tentacle rake +781 (2d8+775)
Full Attack: 4 tentacle rakes +781 (2d8+775)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: undead traits, Resistance to fire 10, Resistance to acid and electricity 15, DR 10/epic, spell resistance 25, fast healing 20
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +770, Will +13
Abilities: Str 15011, Dex 15021, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Environment: any land and underground
Organization: any
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Treasure: none
Alignment: always neutral evil
Advancement: none
Level Adjustment: -

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-13, 07:18 AM
add the paragon template on another 999 times and...


Psudonatural, (Paragon^1000) kobold
Size/Type: Small undead
Hit Dice: 2d12 (12 hp)
Initiative: +755
Speed: 60^3000ft. (12^3000 squares)
Armor Class: 5,833 (+1 size, +760 Dex, +5036 natural, +2 leather, +12 luck, +12 insight), touch 5,831, flat-footed 5,072
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+756
Attack: tentacle rake +781 (2d8+775)
Full Attack: 4 tentacle rakes +781 (2d8+775)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: undead traits, Resistance to fire 10, Resistance to acid and electricity 15, DR 10/epic, spell resistance 25, fast healing 20
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +770, Will +13
Abilities: Str 15011, Dex 15021, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Environment: any land and underground
Organization: any
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Treasure: none
Alignment: always neutral evil
Advancement: none
Level Adjustment: -

I don't know where you are getting that +5000 Natural armor. The Paragon Nat. AC bonus doesn't stack..

The_Snark
2007-12-13, 07:36 AM
How is it that you're applying the paragon template more than once? Templates are usually applied only once, and I don't see any provision that allows you to apply the paragon template more than once.

The zombie template also removes special qualities*. No resistances, SR, or fast healing, and you're stuck with zombie DR and single actions.

*Except those that improve its melee or ranged attacks... but guess what? Anything that does that is almost always put under special attacks, and zombies always lose all special attacks, regardless of whether they improve melee attacks.

Not that it isn't still broken... apply zombie first, then paragon, and you'll have something approaching balance.