Shadow conjuration

[Shinoskay]

I thought I asked this but appearantly I didnt.

So, people constantly say you can use gnome shadow craft mage to cast a level 9 evocation spell.

I mean, shadow evocation (greater) srd SAYS what level spells it can cast so how does that work? Is it possible to increase the level of shadow evocation above level 7 and therefore become able to cast higher level spells? if yes, where does it say that?

[Inevitability]

Shadow Illusion (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a shadowcraft mage is able to infuse some of her figments (see the list below) with material from the Plane of Shadow, making them partially real. The subschool of these spells changes from figment to shadow. A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell.

Those builds aren't using Shadow Evocation: they're using a special class feature that lets spells like Silent Image act as Shadow Evocation. Note the bolded text: if you can somehow get a Silent Image to count as a 9th-level spell (Heighten is the easiest way), it still triggers Shadow Illusion and can mimic higher-level spells.

As for the 10th-level illusions that you'd need to get 9th-level evocations... Feats like Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell increase a spell's effective level without increasing the slot you need to cast it from. A Heightened Earth Silent Image is a 10th-level spell cast from a 9th-level slot, and thus can be used to mimic a 9th-level sorcerer/wizard evocation spell.

[Chronos]

You do it by using Shadowcraft Mage, not by using Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation. The Shadowcraft Mage prestige class has a class feature that lets you use any Illusion (Figment) spell to emulate a conjuration or evocation spell up to one level lower than it. It works similarly to the Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation spells, but you never actually need to use either of those spells.

So what you need is, first, any Figment spell at all (Minor Illusion is often used for this, just because it's easiest). Then you need Heighten Spell, to make it a higher-level spell. And then you need some way of heightening a spell to more than 9th level-- Earth Spell (from Races of Stone, the same book as Shadowcraft Mage) is the usual method for this.

You now have a 10th-level figment spell, and that lets you mimic a 9th-level conjuration or evocation.

[Darg]

Make sure your DM is on board with metamagics increasing spell level because mechanically it doesn't actually change the level of the spell and shadowcraft mage doesn't state that shadow illusion is based on what level a spell is cast at. For example, magic missile is still a first level spell even if you heighten it to 9th.

[Inevitability]

Make sure your DM is on board with metamagics increasing spell level because mechanically it doesn't actually change the level of the spell and shadowcraft mage doesn't state that shadow illusion is based on what level a spell is cast at. For example, magic missile is still a first level spell even if you heighten it to 9th.

Heighten Spell is a specific exception to the general rule of metamagic not increasing a spell's actual level.


A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. For example, a cleric could prepare hold person as a 4th-level spell (instead of a 2nd-level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th-level spell.

[JNAProductions]

Make sure your DM is on board with metamagics increasing spell level because mechanically it doesn't actually change the level of the spell and shadowcraft mage doesn't state that shadow illusion is based on what level a spell is cast at. For example, magic missile is still a first level spell even if you heighten it to 9th.

That's how metamagic EXCEPT Heighten works.

If Heighten didn't work that way, what does it do?

[Paragon]

Tbf, the first part remains truer than ever : ask your DM if he is ok with this because this is high level shenanigans

[Darg]

Heighten Spell is a specific exception to the general rule of metamagic not increasing a spell's actual level.


That's how metamagic EXCEPT Heighten works.

If Heighten didn't work that way, what does it do?

Except it doesn't universally raise the level of magic missile, otherwise while prepared as a 9th level spell, it would be that way for everyone. Thus magic missile is still a 1st level spell and a heightened magic missile is a 1st level spell prepared/cast as a 9th level spell (as all metamagic does) with the effect of a 9th level spell (what heighten actually mechanically does different).

What I pointed out is that shadow illusion doesn't state anything related to the prepared, casted, or effect level of the spell. That's why I said get the OK from the DM because they might not allow it.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, that doesn’t feel like a well-grounded argument.

I agree that you should talk to the DM about it, but not because there’s shaky RAW. You should talk because it’s really damn strong.

[Morphic tide]

Except it doesn't universally raise the level of magic missile, otherwise while prepared as a 9th level spell, it would be that way for everyone. Thus magic missile is still a 1st level spell and a heightened magic missile is a 1st level spell prepared/cast as a 9th level spell (as all metamagic does) with the effect of a 9th level spell (what heighten actually mechanically does different).

What I pointed out is that shadow illusion doesn't state anything related to the prepared, casted, or effect level of the spell. That's why I said get the OK from the DM because they might not allow it.
A spell Heightened to 9th is prepared in a 9th level slot and cast as a 9th level spell while referring to that for all "effects" dependent on spell level. The wiggle-room is if you get to Heighten directly past your "normal" spell level limit, which is an exceptionally poorly defined area of the rules. Earth Spell does not inherit the text regarding difficulty to prepare and cast, so it's an ironclad +1, but this does give a solid basis to deny the full bypass a lot of Shadowcraft Mage shenanigans revolve around.

To argue that "the spell is not intrinsically 9th level on every spell list" means it is disqualified from Shadowcraft Mage's Shadow Illusion feature is utter nonsense, because there is no logical separation from the explicit example of Lesser Globe of Invisibility. Both are effects that check the spell level, and one of the two points of Heighten is to increase the spell for that purpose.

[Darg]

To argue that "the spell is not intrinsically 9th level on every spell list" means it is disqualified from Shadowcraft Mage's Shadow Illusion feature is utter nonsense, because there is no logical separation from the explicit example of Lesser Globe of Invisibility. Both are effects that check the spell level, and one of the two points of Heighten is to increase the spell for that purpose.

Metamagic is a feat, not a spell. You don't learn metamagic spells that are higher level if you learn a spell from a metamagicked spell scroll. You learn the base spell because the spell is that. Lesser Globe of invulnerability doesn't care about the level of the spell, only the level of the effect: "An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower." It's a good thing heighten modifies the level of the effect

"A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell." It identifies the spell rather than the spell being altered as the base point. You don't have to believe what I've said; I was just issuing a warning based on my experience of how it's been interpreted in the past. Not that it actually lessens the capability of the shadowcraft mage as they get full spellcasting and at it's best at the same rate as real spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Except it doesn't universally raise the level of magic missile, otherwise while prepared as a 9th level spell, it would be that way for everyone. Thus magic missile is still a 1st level spell and a heightened magic missile is a 1st level spell prepared/cast as a 9th level spell (as all metamagic does) with the effect of a 9th level spell (what heighten actually mechanically does different).

What I pointed out is that shadow illusion doesn't state anything related to the prepared, casted, or effect level of the spell. That's why I said get the OK from the DM because they might not allow it.


Metamagic is a feat, not a spell. You don't learn metamagic spells that are higher level if you learn a spell from a metamagicked spell scroll. You learn the base spell because the spell is that. Lesser Globe of invulnerability doesn't care about the level of the spell, only the level of the effect: "An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower." It's a good thing heighten modifies the level of the effect

"A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell." It identifies the spell rather than the spell being altered as the base point. You don't have to believe what I've said; I was just issuing a warning based on my experience of how it's been interpreted in the past. Not that it actually lessens the capability of the shadowcraft mage as they get full spellcasting and at it's best at the same rate as real spells.

Sir, have you even read Heighten Spell (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#heightenSpell)? "All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level." The Shadow Illusion feature of Shadowcraft Mage is an effect dependent on spell level. Thus Heighten Spell affects it.

[loky1109]

Metamagic is a feat, not a spell. You don't learn metamagic spells that are higher level if you learn a spell from a metamagicked spell scroll.

Two words. Spirit Shaman.

[Darg]

Sir, have you even read Heighten Spell (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#heightenSpell)? "All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level." The Shadow Illusion feature of Shadowcraft Mage is an effect dependent on spell level. Thus Heighten Spell affects it.

Heighten spell affects the spell, not the class feature.


Two words. Spirit Shaman.

Reread it:


If a spirit shaman knows any metamagic feats, she applies them to her spells when she retrieves her spells for the day.

They don't know metamagic spells.

[JNAProductions]

Yes, it affects the spell.
Is the rule dependent on the spell’s level? Then Heighten modifies what it can do.

Again-discuss with your DM before plopping this on them. It’s really powerful. But there’s no need to torturously read RAW to achieve balance, when you can just houserule or agree to save a powerful PC for a more appropriate campaign.

[Darg]

Yes, it affects the spell.
Is the rule dependent on the spell’s level? Then Heighten modifies what it can do.

Again-discuss with your DM before plopping this on them. It’s really powerful. But there’s no need to torturously read RAW to achieve balance, when you can just houserule or agree to save a powerful PC for a more appropriate campaign.

Come on now, no need to embellish and exaggerate how hard it is to understand. Any reasonable person can read it either way. Again I only pointed it out because it's been a thing in the past. Not like my words are going to nerf your enjoyment of the game.

[Chronos]

No, reasonable people read "The spell is treated as a higher level" as meaning that the spell is treated as a higher level. That's what Heighten Spell does.

[Darg]

No, reasonable people read "The spell is treated as a higher level" as meaning that the spell is treated as a higher level. That's what Heighten Spell does.

The spell is treated as a higher level for the purposes of preparation, casting, and the effect. Heightened Magic missile wouldn't be considered a 2nd level spell for the purposes of qualifying for PRCs because it's still a 1st level spell. In the same way a heightened spell can be read as not able to exploit shadow illusion with increased benefits.

[Cortillaen]

Reread it:

If a spirit shaman knows any metamagic feats, she applies them to her spells when she retrieves her spells for the day.
They don't know metamagic spells.
They must be able to know metamagic-ed spells, and your quote doesn't dispute this.

Like a sorcerer, a spirit shaman knows only a small number of spells. However, each day a spirit shaman may change the spells she knows. [description of retrieving spells omitted for brevity]

For example, a spirit shaman might choose to retrieve an empowered flame strike by using a 6th-level spell retrieved slot. Any time she uses flame strike during the ensuing day, she must use a 6th-level spell slot to cast it, and it is always empowered.
If you agree that A) a Spirit Shaman knows spells, B) a Spirit Shaman can only cast a spell if they know it, and C) the spells a Spirit Shaman retrieves are those they know for the day, then the rest follows: A Spirit Shaman that retrieves Empowered Flame Strike but not Flame Strike can cast Empowered Flame Strike but cannot cast a regular Flame Strike. Therefore, by B, the Spirit Shaman knows Empowered Flame Strike but not Flame Strike. Your quote aligns with this since the metamagic is added during the process of retrieval, and the resulting spell known is the metamagic-ed spell.


The spell is treated as a higher level for the purposes of preparation, casting, and the effect. Heightened Magic missile wouldn't be considered a 2nd level spell for the purposes of qualifying for PRCs because it's still a 1st level spell. In the same way a heightened spell can be read as not able to exploit shadow illusion with increased benefits.
Strange, I don't see "except for qualifying for PrCs" in the text of Heighten Spell. You're trying to inject a restriction that isn't there.

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal [...] For example, a cleric could prepare hold person as a 4th-level spell (instead of a 2nd-level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th-level spell.
"All ways". No exceptions, no carve-outs. If you cast Net of Shadows Heightened to 4th level, you are casting a shadow spell of 4th level. Therefore the ability to do so meets the Shadowcraft Mage requirement.

[Shinoskay]

guys, this is about shadow conjuration and the shadowcraft mage.... while debates about heighten spell metamagic is fair.... debates about an entire other classes is not on topic.

dont let people like darg lead you by the nose.

[RandomPeasant]

No, reasonable people read "The spell is treated as a higher level" as meaning that the spell is treated as a higher level. That's what Heighten Spell does.

Yeah. It's honestly kind of baffling that Darg has chosen this point to complain about the Shadowcraft Mage. I think there are things you can have a legitimate debate over rules interpretations people use for SCM exploits (shadow miracle definitely doesn't work, you can make some arguments about Residual Magic). But there is just no way to claim "mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell" is not an "effect[s] dependent on spell level".

Honestly, you can even make the case that a Shadowcraft Mage can't emulate 9th level spells. But that goes through "Earth Spell doesn't ignore the limit on Heightening past 9th level" not this "there's a third kind of level that Heighten Spell does that's different from both regular metamagic and actual spell levels" thing.

[Shinoskay]

Yeah. It's honestly kind of baffling that Darg has chosen this point to complain about the Shadowcraft Mage. I think there are things you can have a legitimate debate over rules interpretations people use for SCM exploits (shadow miracle definitely doesn't work, you can make some arguments about Residual Magic). But there is just no way to claim "mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell" is not an "effect[s] dependent on spell level".

Honestly, you can even make the case that a Shadowcraft Mage can't emulate 9th level spells. But that goes through "Earth Spell doesn't ignore the limit on Heightening past 9th level" not this "there's a third kind of level that Heighten Spell does that's different from both regular metamagic and actual spell levels" thing.

that was super passive aggressive, and side mouthy, and I dont like either of those.

im not here for you to shake hands with, im just tired of seeing people get so easy led around dumb or irrelevant conversations. I see enough of it in old and archived threads, I dont need more of it in threads ive made.... especially on topics that very likely have been talked about in nausium for probably 10 years or so now.

[RandomPeasant]

This is quite disingenuous. I stated a view point, people argued that it was wrong, and I explained the logic. The view point I stated boils down to that heighten spell doesn't actually increase the level of a spell as the feat literally tells you it doesn't. Everyone else thinks that's wrong and I'm just defending my position.

The feat literally says that "A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal". Your entire argument rests on a difference between "effective level" and "level", which doesn't make any sense from firs principles because that would imply there are cases where "effective level" does not have the effect of the level in question. What level of spell a spell emulates with Shadow Conjuration is "dependent on spell level" and therefore effected by Heighten Spell. The issue is not "everyone else thinks that's wrong", it's just "that's wrong".

[Shinoskay]

-[QUOTE=RandomPeasant;25928098 QUOTE]-

better