searching for a Niche spell

[Shinoskay]

Ive got chain spell, and imbued staff....

trying to make my dnd 3.5 'spellstrike' into a chained spell.

anyone know of any damage touch spells that qualify for chained spell?

[Troacctid]

Chain Spell only works on spells with a range greater than touch, and Imbued Staff can only channel spells with a range of touch, so the two are fundamentally incompatible.

[holbita]

If this is for what I belive it is... the answer is go sorcerer and use "Arcane Fusion" and "Greater Arcane Fusion"

That will allow you to hit twice with your standard action, meaning that both hits happen on your turn and that you can use then your swift action for eilservs school.

[Shinoskay]

If this is for what I belive it is... the answer is go sorcerer and use "Arcane Fusion" and "Greater Arcane Fusion"

That will allow you to hit twice with your standard action, meaning that both hits happen on your turn and that you can use then your swift action for eilservs school.

While I was hoping to use that, that is not what this is.

Its for an imbued staffs deliver touch spell power.


Deliver Touch Spells (Su): The master may deliver touch spells with the staff. When using the staff in this way, the wielder may attempt to deal the staffs damage by hitting the target's standard AC (as opposed to the target's touch AC). A successful critical hit with the staff does not double the spell's affect when delivered in this way.

though, I think if I meta magic a touch spell with reach I should be able to then chain it.... no?

also, new question, does that ability work within a full attack?

[Troacctid]

though, I think if I meta magic a touch spell with reach I should be able to then chain it.... no?
Yes, but then you wouldn't be able to deliver it with your staff anymore.


also, new question, does that ability work within a full attack?
Yes and no. Delivering a touch spell through the staff uses the spell's normal casting time—so if it's a standard action spell, you would take a standard action, make one attack, and deliver the spell on a hit. You couldn't make a full attack as part of the initial casting. However, if your first attack misses, the staff will retain the charge for that spell until you score a hit or cast another spell. At that point, any type of hit will do, including an attack made as part of a full attack.

So, when you first cast the spell, you can only make one attack. But if you miss with that attack, you can start making full attacks on subsequent rounds until you score a hit.

[Shinoskay]

Yes, but then you wouldn't be able to deliver it with your staff anymore.


Why not, the power says a touch spell, its still a touch spell... just reach lets it touch farther away. Like using a cord to turn a melee weapon into a whip. its still melee... just now you can hit further.
Chain spell says it has to have RANGE farther then touch. A touch spell that now has RANGE beyond just reach out and touch seems to match that... no?



Yes and no. Delivering a touch spell through the staff uses the spell's normal casting time—so if it's a standard action spell, you would take a standard action, make one attack, and deliver the spell on a hit. You couldn't make a full attack as part of the initial casting. However, if your first attack misses, the staff will retain the charge for that spell until you score a hit or cast another spell. At that point, any type of hit will do, including an attack made as part of a full attack.

So, when you first cast the spell, you can only make one attack. But if you miss with that attack, you can start making full attacks on subsequent rounds until you score a hit.
hmm, perhaps this one is more a gm question... I can certainly see your interpretation though.

[Prime32]

If you don't want to take 13 levels of Duskblade, here's a list of touch spells which persist for multiple rounds and can be wielded like a weapon (https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=10747.msg192653#msg192653).

[Feantar]

Why not, the power says a touch spell, its still a touch spell... just reach lets it touch farther away. Like using a cord to turn a melee weapon into a whip. its still melee... just now you can hit further.
Chain spell says it has to have RANGE farther then touch. A touch spell that now has RANGE beyond just reach out and touch seems to match that... no?

Touch spells are spells with touch range. Reach changes the range of the spell from touch to 30 ft (and, btw, also makes it viable for persistent, since 30 ft is fixed while touch isn't). Therefore the metamagicked spell isn't Touch. The original is. But you're casting the metamagicked one. Same with Energy substitution Cold in fireball makes it a Cold spell and no longer a fire spell.

[Shinoskay]

Touch spells are spells with touch range. Reach changes the range of the spell from touch to 30 ft (and, btw, also makes it viable for persistent, since 30 ft is fixed while touch isn't). Therefore the metamagicked spell isn't Touch. The original is. But you're casting the metamagicked one. Same with Energy substitution Cold in fireball makes it a Cold spell and no longer a fire spell.

do you have any source descriptions to support this statement?

I know touch tends to be a range and ranged touch tend to be rays but is this actually defined to be this way or just an assumed silent rule?



If you don't want to take 13 levels of Duskblade, here's a list of touch spells which persist for multiple rounds and can be wielded like a weapon (https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=10747.msg192653#msg192653).

Im trying to maximize damage output.

Currently have energy admix for double damage.... and can deliver it as an attack or a touch.
Chainspell metamagic would let me aoe 50% of that double (meaning Id be splashing with normal damage, which is insane) as part of my normal attacks.... which is just omfyes. a 1d6+3d6 that delivers 10d6+10d6 and splashes 10d6 just EATS fodder and lets me chain off fodder to do decent damage to bigger ****.

never even mind my summons, constructs and other of my own created fodder.

[Feantar]

do you have any source descriptions to support this statement?

I know touch tends to be a range and ranged touch tend to be rays but is this actually defined to be this way or just an assumed silent rule?


It seems clear to me but I don't have anything explicit… there's a quote here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#:~:text=Touch%20Spells%20in,at tack%20roll.).


Touch Spells in Combat
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

It points out the spell range being touch, and the title is Touch spells - seems reasonable to assume that, therefore, to be a touch spell you have to have a range of touch - and thus if you don't, you're not a touch spell. Maybe there's something more blatant in the spell section? This is the corresponding (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#:~:text=Touch,touched%20in%2 0the%20same%20round%20that%20you%20finish%20castin g%20the%20spell.) range entry.

[Shinoskay]

It seems clear to me but I don't have anything explicitÂ… there's a quote here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#:~:text=Touch%20Spells%20in,at tack%20roll.).



It points out the spell range being touch, and the title is Touch spells - seems reasonable to assume that, therefore, to be a touch spell you have to have a range of touch - and thus if you don't, you're not a touch spell. Maybe there's something more blatant in the spell section? This is the corresponding (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#:~:text=Touch,touched%20in%2 0the%20same%20round%20that%20you%20finish%20castin g%20the%20spell.) range entry.

sure, but reach doesnt remove range... it adds.


to be a touch spell you have to have a range of touch

You may cast a spell that normally has a range of touch at any distance up to 30 feet.
It still has range touch.... it just also has range 30...

[Feantar]

It still has range touch.... it just also has range 30...

Wait, which reach are you talking about? I'm seeing the following text:


You may cast a spell that normally has a range of touch at any distance up to 30 feet. The spell effectively becomes a ray, so you must succeed on a ranged touch attack to bestow the spell upon the recipient. A reach spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.

It's a ray spell. I'd even allow specialisation in rays to apply here.

[Shinoskay]

Wait, which reach are you talking about? I'm seeing the following text:



It's a ray spell. I'd even allow specialization in rays to apply here.

it says effectively, not actually.

thats like effective level vs actual level. You can have an ECL 2, but be level 1. it is effectively a ray, but actually a touch.

[Menzath]

I think the biggest argument that can be found for reach spell not working with imbued staff can be found in the for the features deliver touch spell ability.


Deliver Touch Spells (Su): The master may deliver touch spells with the staff. When using the staff in this way, the wielder may attempt to deal the staffs damage by hitting the target's standard AC (as opposed to the target's touch AC). A successful critical hit with the staff does not double the spell's affect when delivered in this way.

The problems is when you use reach spell it becomes a ray(touch(ranged)) so the staff itself becomes a non-factor.
As pointed out with chain spells very first sentence this makes it so they would not be able to be used in conjunction.


Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch can be chained

The definition differences of touch(melee) and touch(ranged) are each exclusive, though they do have some overlap.

So even if you cheese and ranged melee touch, it would still be a touch(melee) and thus not eligible for chain spell.

Sadly the terminology for some of the complete feats were not very clear on the differences of touch and ranged touch.

[Shinoskay]

I think the biggest argument that can be found for reach spell not working with imbued staff can be found in the for the features deliver touch spell ability.



The problems is when you use reach spell it becomes a ray(touch(ranged)) so the staff itself becomes a non-factor.
As pointed out with chain spells very first sentence this makes it so they would not be able to be used in conjunction.


Except, again, it says effectively.... not actually.

and reach metamagic says you GAIN, not BECOMES. it allows the spell to operate 'at any range up to 30 feet' as well. which includes its default range.

[JNAProductions]

Except, again, it says effectively.... not actually.

and reach metamagic says you GAIN, not BECOMES. it allows the spell to operate 'at any range up to 30 feet' as well. which includes its default range.

I don't see "Gain" anywhere in the text of Reach Spell.

My big recommendation is "Ask your DM if this is kosher" before you put tons of effort into figuring out how it works. It seems on really shaky rules ground, but with a sufficiently lenient DM, that doesn't matter.
If you are the DM, then decide for yourself what reading is better for the game. But myself? I wouldn't let it fly.

[Shinoskay]

its not shaky

[JNAProductions]

its not shaky

Chain Spell only works on spells with a range greater than touch, and Imbued Staff can only channel spells with a range of touch, so the two are fundamentally incompatible.

Second post of this thread. Big ol' hole in your idea.

[Menzath]

its not shaky




Reach Spell [metamagic]
Benefi t: You may cast a spell that normally has a range
of touch at any distance up to 30 feet. The spell effectively
becomes a ray, so you must succeed on a ranged touch attack
to bestow the spell upon the recipient. A reach spell uses up
a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Emphasis mine. The rules are clear. It now uses a ranged touch attack(ray) despite what it previously was.

As you can not make a ray attack with your staff your argument is indeed shaky.

But again if it's something that you want definitely ask your DM.