How does 3.5 measure out of combat rounds?

[Ozreth]

Many, if not most modules I have used have events that happen after x amount of rounds (after 3 rounds, the pillar falls, or traps that have new effects each "round", like in room 8 of the Whispering Cairn adventure etc). The PHB also specifies that exploration time is not measured the same as tactical time, which is measured it rounds. So why is the word rounds also being used in correlation with out of combat events happening?

6 seconds being a round out of combat isn't really possible, at least not in relation to how events like the above work.

So as characters are trudging through a dungeon, how are rounds being measured? And if there is no real RAW answer, how do you do it?

I think the real answer is that there isn't a real answer and it probably doesn't matter. But this is 3.5 and they went to a lot of effort to cover as much as they could, and it seems like they were half way to something with this but never finished the idea.

AD&D was 10 minutes a round, which is easy to use.

[Feantar]

Many, if not most modules I have used have events that happen after x amount of rounds (after 3 rounds, the pillar falls, or traps that have new effects each "round", like in room 8 of the Whispering Cairn adventure etc). The PHB also specifies that exploration time is not measured the same as tactical time, which is measured it rounds. So why is the word rounds also being used in correlation with out of combat events happening?

6 seconds being a round out of combat isn't really possible, at least not in relation to how events like the above work.

So as characters are trudging through a dungeon, how are rounds being measured? And if there is no real RAW answer, how do you do it?

I think the real answer is that there isn't a real answer and it probably doesn't matter. But this is 3.5 and they went to a lot of effort to cover as much as they could, and it seems like they were half way to something with this but never finished the idea.

AD&D was 10 minutes a round, which is easy to use.

A round is 6 seconds, a turn is 10 rounds (a minute). That's it, whether you're in combat or not. Since time happens both in and out of battle, you can just think 6 seconds and count as normal. Also, this implies that events counted in rounds, are almost useless out of extremely short, time sensitive conditions.

[Ozreth]

A round is 6 seconds, a turn is 10 rounds (a minute). That's it, whether you're in combat or not. Since time happens both in and out of battle, you can just think 6 seconds and count as normal. Also, this implies that events counted in rounds, are almost useless out of extremely short, time sensitive conditions.

I get that, but RAW specifically states that this measure of time is not used outside of combat. And that makes sense, because 6 seconds is the amount of time it takes for a player at the table to finish a bite of food, let alone for the group to decide what they should do in the event of traps going off. We can say in-game time is abstracted, sure, but if we aren't using a measurement of time actively in such circumstances then it removes any danger, which is why they do try to codify it in the adventures, but they use rounds, which doesn't make sense.

But then rounds is the word that gets used in all of the published adventures, outside of combat, despite the PHB stating that this is not the measurement of time used outside of combats, you instead use feet per minute, but this doesn't correlated at all to events being triggered in "rounds" outside of combat. So I'm wondering if there really was a huge disconnect here that was overlooked, or if this is answered in a way that I'm not seeing.

[Feantar]

I get that, but RAW specifically states that this measure of time is not used outside of combat. And that makes sense, because 6 seconds is the amount of time it takes for a player at the table to finish a bite of food, let alone for the group to decide what they should do in the event of traps going off. We can say in-game time is abstracted, sure, but if we aren't using a measurement of time actively in such circumstances then it removes any danger, which is why they do try to codify it in the adventures, but they use rounds, which doesn't make sense.

Oh! You mean out of game time, with in-game time. Yeah, that disrepancy is never adressed anywhere. In essence, all effects durations (excluding permanent, or triggered) refference things that are convertible to normal, absolute time units that are objective in any context (in non relativistic conditions at least) irrespective of in-battle or out-of battle. But how long a player gets to react... well that's on the DM. To be honest, any time I've seen limitations imposed (like, You have ten seconds to answer!) it never ends well. The max I've done as a DM is Dude, you can't keep pondering this, you need to react now! and hope that they do. On the other hand, since people tend to take a while with their in combat turns, it's at least consistent, if not terribly realistic.


Finally, I think that while RAW -states- that, no module I've seen does anything with it. I mean I've seen "The PCs have 3 hours to do this" or "this happens within 2 days" but that's it, no feet per minute refferences. So that was probably quietly dropped at an early stage.

[Pugwampy]

Out of combat or story time i roll a D4 for how many hours have past .

Same if i roll for weather and its a heavy rain . The heroes stuck for 1d4 hours.

[Chronos]

Rounds are not usually used outside of combat, because they're usually not a very practical time unit for out of combat tasks. Similarly, in our world, seconds are not usually used as a unit for how long someone works on a job. But just because it's usually impractical doesn't mean that it's always impractical, nor that you can't go ahead and use it when it's impractical anyway.

[Ozreth]

So here's an example from The Whispering Cairn. How would people handle the bolded parts? I've been DMing for a long time and have my own ways of handling this stuff so I'm not actually worried about it, but the heavy usage of it in this module in particular has got me thinking about what was really meant with this language in relation to the rules in the PHB. What's worse is in this example they use rounds several times and then switch to a minutes increment towards the end.

Trap: A pressure plate 60 ft. down the passage triggers if more than 60 lbs. are placed upon it. When this happens, the face animates, and a terrible wind erupts from its wailing mouth. At the same time, the face’s eyes spin with hypnotic illusory patterns in all of the colors of the rainbow that correspond with unlit lanterns in the chamber below. Anyone within the face’s gaze must make a DC 13 Will save or become paralyzed, frozen in place and unable to move. Each round on its turn, the subject can attempt another saving throw to snap out of it.
The terrible wind is another major concern of anyone unlucky enough to be in the passage when the trap is sprung. On the first round, the mouth blasts a strong wind, with the intensity ratcheting up one category every round, going from strong to severe to windstorm to hurricane. See page 95 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide for rules regarding wind strength. Each round, creatures within the wind must make a DC 18 Fortitude save or be subject to the wind’s effects. Small characters are potentially blown away as early as round 2, whereas Medium creatures face that risk on round 3.

Blown away characters are knocked prone and tumble 1d4x10 feet, taking 1d4 points of nonlethal damage per 10 feet. Flying characters are blown back 2d6x10 feet and take 2d6 points of nonlethal dam- age due to battering and buffeting. Non-flying characters pushed over the edge of the shaft plummet to the floor below, suffering 4d6 points of damage upon impact. Such characters may attempt to snatch the indigo lantern’s chain with a successful DC 10 Reflex save, with success preventing the fall and damage.

The wind continues at hurricane force for 10 minutes before it stops and the trap resets itself. The only way through the face is to ignite torches in area 7. Once a torch has been lit, that color fails to appear in the face’s hypnotic eyes. When all torches have been lit, the trap is effectively disarmed. The stone comprising the mouth’s interior vanishes, allowing passage to the chamber beyond.

[Eldonauran]

I handle this way: The round by round effects don't really matter unless the players are directly being effected by the situation. If they are, we use normal combat rounds until they are outside of the effects. Once they are out, time moves at the speed of plot. They can say they wait around until the wind dies down and we do so.

[Ozreth]

If they are, we use normal combat rounds until they are outside of the effects.

As in each player goes one at a time as if with initiative? That seems to make the most sense to me. Except for instances where asking them to go in order could make them aware of an incoming effect that they otherwise shouldn't know about.

[Tzardok]

Have them roll as soon as the trap is sprung. The activation of the trap happens in the "suprise round", and then everyone acts in order.

[Ozreth]

Have them roll as soon as the trap is sprung. The activation of the trap happens in the "suprise round", and then everyone acts in order.

I wonder if doing a reflex save and going in that order would be even better?

[KillianHawkeye]

Some traps, like that one with the wind, are full encounters all on their own. It's not a "combat" encounter, but you would still "enter turn-based mode", so to speak, to deal with the effects.

In fact, initiative and turn order should be used in any situation where reactions are important and every second counts, whether there is a threat of combat or not.

[Eldonauran]

As in each player goes one at a time as if with initiative? That seems to make the most sense to me. Except for instances where asking them to go in order could make them aware of an incoming effect that they otherwise shouldn't know about.That is exactly what I mean, use initiative as with combat. Trap is sprung -> Trap Acts on Surprise round -> Players roll initiative -> They act on their turn -> Trap effects (if any) happen last -> Repeat until out of 'combat'.