What's a rogue to do in a low magic-item campaign?

[Frostthehero]

I am playing a rogue in a hardcore low magic-item campaign. To give you a sense of what that means, among the entire party of 6 players, we have 4 magic items. Our enemies are smart and powerful. They tend to focus squishier targets first, and as a melee rogue, that means me.

I'd like to be sneak attacking as much as possible, but unless I'm in melee and flanking (which leads to getting crushed by enemies), I can't do that.

Grease has been the best option so far, but sometimes it isn't viable - or an enemy has ranks in balance.

I've been considering shadowdancer so that I can hide in plain sight for at least one ranged sneak attack per round, but that's still not optimal.

What's the best strategy for getting lots of sneak attack without getting merced in 2 rounds?

[Doctor Despair]

What's the best strategy for getting lots of sneak attack without getting merced in 2 rounds?

Assuming you don't want to flank because you're getting targeted...

Take 2 levels in monk and get the Invisible Fist ACF. It lets you essentially get greater invisibility for 1 full round every third round. Lots of sneak attack, and they probably don't attack you (or hit you at least), letting you tumble away on your next turn.

Alternatively, use eggshell dust grenades:


Eggshell Grenade, Dust
Price: 10 GP
Weight: --
(Oriental Adventures p. 78)
Thrown as a grenade-like weapon, so make a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 5'. A dust grenade that hits its target directly blinds the target for 1d4 rounds *NO SAVE*. Anyone else within the 5' radius splash must make a Fort save DC 10 or be blinded for 1 round. This is an amazingly effective weapon that works on a wide variety of opponents, but don't overuse this one or your DM will come down on you with a banhammer like a ton of bricks.
Craft (Alchemy) DC: 20

Alternatively, fight defensively. Buy a poison ring (dragon compendium) so you're making touch attacks. Now you can afford to tank your attack bonus the full 5 to raise your AC by the same. You probably have tumble, so that's a +3 to your AC right there for a net of +8 on top of your dex and armor. Surely that will make you less squishy, right?

Alternatively, you could dip Warlock 2 to save on feats and take Blend into Shadows as a feat. Swift-action hide in plain sight at will. I say warlock 2 so that you can get Devil's Sight as an invocation, since magic items to do that same will probably be hard to come by.

[ShurikVch]

How about reach weapon instead ranged weapon? (Say, Awl Pike from Dragon #331 with its 15' reach) With it you would be able to flank (thus, no need for invisibility) while staying out of (most?) enemies' reach

[H_H_F_F]

What's the power level of the group? Would going for Unseen Seer be overkill?

[Anthrowhale]

Do you have a buddy who you could take the Double Team feat with? The requirements (BAB+6, Combat Reflexes) may be steep depending on level, but it means you only need a joint threaten to flank. You could even flank from the second line with a reach weapon. This also works well if you have a mount with the feat.

[pabelfly]

What about the Wild Cohort feat? You'd get an animal companion that you could flank with.

[Darg]

Spring attack is a really good option for getting sneak attacks off without much fear of devastating retaliation. It even has the side benefit of giving you the option to hide before and after you attack in melee. If you use earlier printings of the PHB or the SRD you even still get to use your move action for whatever you want like improved feint. It's also usable with melee thrown weapons for ranged sneak attacks.

[Crake]

I am a big fan of shadowdancer's hide in plain sight, and as a note, you aren't limited to ranged sneak attacks with it. Thanks to it's wording, you can literally hide, out in the open, 5ft away from someone, while they're looking right at you, and since hiding is done as part of movement, you can start stealthed, attack to break stealth, then move and hide again, or alternatively, if you have sufficiently high hide skills, you can attempt to hide while attacking to never be seen in the first place at -20.

[Shinoskay]

be the badasses, that usually put normal magic levels to shame, that they are... if its low magic... relish in knowing theres almost nothing that can stop your ninja ass.

[Gorthawar]

A few additional ideas:

Remember that you get sneak attack against flat footed opponents as well. The rogue in my team makes good use of his high initiative to throw a bunch of shuriken with a full attack. Quick draw might come in handy if you can't use shuriken. A monk dip will be helpful for the proficiency. A level in hit and run fighter would give you a feat, +2 initiative and dex to damage against flat footed folks.

One level in swordsage will give you a bunch of great maneuver and the island of blades stance which means you don't have to be opposite your buddy anymore for flanking. Another level taken at the right time (lvl 8 the earliest) will give you assassin's stance for an extra +2d6 sneak attack.

Marbles can cause opponents to lose their dex bonus as well. Although as a DM I'd not allow it to work on soft ground or some very heavy / big monsters unless both the marbles and the floor are exceptionally strong.

If you have a ranger in your group they could take the distracting shot ACF which causes anyone hit to count as flanked.

[Darg]

I am a big fan of shadowdancer's hide in plain sight, and as a note, you aren't limited to ranged sneak attacks with it. Thanks to it's wording, you can literally hide, out in the open, 5ft away from someone, while they're looking right at you, and since hiding is done as part of movement, you can start stealthed, attack to break stealth, then move and hide again, or alternatively, if you have sufficiently high hide skills, you can attempt to hide while attacking to never be seen in the first place at -20.

One of my favorite core combos is a fighter/rogue multi into shadowdancer at 8. Fighter 2/rogue 5 with favored class and fighter 4/rogue 3 without. The extra feats go a long way to make a cohesive shadowdancer. You get greatsword proficiency for the extra 1d6 and extra feats to grab spring attack and improved feint or whatever other feats you want.

And don't forget the shadow summon can also qualify for your HiPS. The only stipulation is that you can't use your shadow, not that it can't be a literal shadow. I've come to appreciate the value of 3.0's extra shadow summons for every 3 levels.

[ShurikVch]

Note: Hellbreaker - with the Mantle of Darkness and Telepathic Static - may be available earlier than Shadowdancer

Also, Shadow Creature (as template or class) with Shadow Blend

[Gorthawar]

Additionally people lose dex to AC and can be sneak attacked when blinded. Use glitterdust, pyrotechnics, egg shell grenades and similar when grease doesn't work.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take the feat Ancestral Relic. Sacrifice all the enemies' gear to put the full market value (regardless of what merchants would be willing to pay you for them) into the relic, and it becomes a magical item of your choosing up to the total value you've sacrificed. You can completely change the magic item's properties every time you modify it. If you can dip a level of OA Samurai you can do the same with two daisho weapons.

Take magic item creation feats? Take Leadership and get a Cleric or Archivist or Warlock 12+ cohort with item creation feats, or a Midgard Dwarf (ECL 12) cohort.

Go Rogue/Ardent or Psion into Psychic Assassin, maybe. I'd prefer Spellthief over Rogue for a wand of wraithstrike in a wand chamber of your weapon, if you can get one. Use Substitute Powers and/or Expanded Knowledge to pick up Vigor and Share Pain to use with a psicrystal, which you keep on your person so opponents don't ever have line of sight/effect to it. You take half damage from all sources, the psicrysal's hardness reduces every instance of damage it takes from share pain, and when you use vigor you can share it with the psicrystal. Get Mind Cripple at Psychic Assassin 6, so you deal 2 Int damage per sneak attack and can outright disable most bruisers in a single full attack with TWF. Use Astral Construct for a flanking partner/damage sponge if necessary. Use Energy Missile to destroy opponents' weapons and armor, Time Hop to do the same or to remove an enemy who's ganging up on you. You can even use Crystal Shard or Energy Ray to sneak attack at a distance with a touch attack.

[liquidformat]

What about the Wild Cohort feat? You'd get an animal companion that you could flank with.

You can also start buying animals to fight with, that can be a pretty good strategy.

[Crake]

One of my favorite core combos is a fighter/rogue multi into shadowdancer at 8. Fighter 2/rogue 5 with favored class and fighter 4/rogue 3 without. The extra feats go a long way to make a cohesive shadowdancer. You get greatsword proficiency for the extra 1d6 and extra feats to grab spring attack and improved feint or whatever other feats you want.

And don't forget the shadow summon can also qualify for your HiPS. The only stipulation is that you can't use your shadow, not that it can't be a literal shadow. I've come to appreciate the value of 3.0's extra shadow summons for every 3 levels.

Personally I've never really gone beyond 1 level in shadowdancer, not a huge fan of the shadow.

Realistically, there's going to be SOME shadow within 10ft of you at all times though, unless you're either a) in a perfectly overcast day such that no shadows are being cast, or b) out in the middle of a flat plane desert with no other creatures nearby. But realistically, if there's an object or a creature of any kind within 10ft of you, there's also gonna be a shadow. Even grass casts shadows after all.

[Darg]

Personally I've never really gone beyond 1 level in shadowdancer, not a huge fan of the shadow.

Realistically, there's going to be SOME shadow within 10ft of you at all times though, unless you're either a) in a perfectly overcast day such that no shadows are being cast, or b) out in the middle of a flat plane desert with no other creatures nearby. But realistically, if there's an object or a creature of any kind within 10ft of you, there's also gonna be a shadow. Even grass casts shadows after all.

When I take PrCs I'm wanting to play that class not dip. Then again, I'm also more likely to design/alter PrCs to accomplish what players want to achieve. That grass comment is just as silly as realizing that even in the bright sunlight you're in the shadow of countless celestial bodies at any given time. As a DM none of that would fly as it goes against the spirit of the ability.

The shadow is the best part though, if you aren't exploiting RAW. It's your own personally flanking partner/scout that can travel through solid walls/floors/ceilings that is immune to nonmagical weapons (most natural weapon monsters).

[Crake]

As a DM none of that would fly as it goes against the spirit of the ability.

What do YOU feel is the "spirit" of the ability?

What draws the line between an acceptable shadow and an unacceptable one?

For me, it's the presence of a distinct penumbramal shadow, diffused, blurred out umbral shadows do not count.

[Darg]

What do YOU feel is the "spirit" of the ability?

What draws the line between an acceptable shadow and an unacceptable one?

For me, it's the presence of a distinct penumbramal shadow, diffused, blurred out umbral shadows do not count.

Basically anything big enough to alter the combat map in some way. A pebble on the road isn't acceptable, but a stone large enough to be considered an obstacle could cast a valid shadow. For larger sources of shadow like a mountain or a building, it needs to be visibly a shadow rather than something you just know is a shadow. The darkness of an alley is something you know is a shadow logically, but being in the alley it's just darkness. Similar to a cave entrance. My rule of thumb is that you need to see at least 2 edges or sides to the shadow for it to be valid. An alley with light visibly breaking through to bifurcate the floor or a visible lit street on the other end is valid (during the day). An alley that is dark as far as can possibly be seen is not valid.

[Doctor Despair]

Basically anything big enough to alter the combat map in some way. A pebble on the road isn't acceptable, but a stone large enough to be considered an obstacle could cast a valid shadow. For larger sources of shadow like a mountain or a building, it needs to be visibly a shadow rather than something you just know is a shadow. The darkness of an alley is something you know is a shadow logically, but being in the alley it's just darkness. Similar to a cave entrance. My rule of thumb is that you need to see at least 2 edges or sides to the shadow for it to be valid. An alley with light visibly breaking through to bifurcate the floor or a visible lit street on the other end is valid (during the day). An alley that is dark as far as can possibly be seen is not valid.

Wait... you would not let a Shadowdancer use HiPS at night?

[Darg]

Wait... you would not let a Shadowdancer use HiPS at night?

The ability says shadows, not darkness. If the moon is bright enough to cast shadows I don't see the difference.

If there's no limits to the pedantry, then the ability description might as well just say "You can hide while being observed at any time."

[Crake]

The darkness of an alley is something you know is a shadow logically, but being in the alley it's just darkness.

Well, guess I'm glad we're not playing at the same table then, because this is just a super hard disagree.


The ability says shadows, not darkness.

All darkness is shadows, but not all shadows are darkness.

[icefractal]

While it's a possible design space to only have an ability that works in partial lighting but neither bright lighting or darkness (Pride's abilities from FMA, for example), I think that's an atypical enough thing for the ability to specifically mention it, as well as making it unwieldy to adjudicate. So IMO, it works in anything that's at least shadow, meaning full darkness as well.

As for minimum shadow size ... being cast by something at least your size seems like a reasonable rule of thumb. RAW it's unspecified.

[Pugwampy]

If you wanna kill things why not just make a fighter who uses dex instead of str . Sneak Attack is way too much admin for the same damage a fighter can do just swinging his arm .

Picking locks , searching and disarming traps , Scouting . Thats what your party needs from you .

[Darg]

Well, guess I'm glad we're not playing at the same table then, because this is just a super hard disagree.



All darkness is shadows, but not all shadows are darkness.

I'm glad I'm not playing at your table because darkness is relative. The light from the sun on mercury is 11 times brighter than can be found on earth. The difference in illumination is much more that of the shadow of a person from the sun due to the reflection of light into the shadow. Your definition implies that any enclosed space is good enough to qualify. Carry a hollow lead ball around and never have to worry about needing a shadow because it's dark inside the ball and thus is a shadow. Oh wait, why do that when the fact that any item you carry has its own shadow and isn't yours?

[Doctor Despair]

I'm glad I'm not playing at your table because darkness is relative. The light from the sun on mercury is 11 times brighter than can be found on earth. The difference in illumination is much more that of the shadow of a person from the sun due to the reflection of light into the shadow. Your definition implies that any enclosed space is good enough to qualify. Carry a hollow lead ball around and never have to worry about needing a shadow because it's dark inside the ball and thus is a shadow. Oh wait, why do that when the fact that any item you carry has its own shadow and isn't yours?

Warlocks with blend into shadows can do that with magic darkness in a backpack


As a swift action, you can spend a use of your darkness spell-like ability to make a Hide check, even while being observed and without cover or concealment. You must be within 10 feet of an area of magical darkness.

Why should shadowdancer break verisimilitude any more than that? Remember: it's a magical ability. It can break normal verisimilitude.


Hide in Plain Sight (Su)
A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

If they felt they had to specify you cannot hide in your own shadow, that means that hiding in people's shadows is perfectly allowable. Personally, I'd read that items you carry are part of your shadow. However, a friend or enemy standing next to you would let you hide in plain sight. At that point, it's just about trying to establish what shadow is large enough to hide in. As long as you have any creature within 10 feet of you, technically you could hide near their shadow or their gear -- which is where the shadow flanking buddy becomes relevant.

Then there's the comments about whether you can hide in darkness. First of all, that's only relevant against enemies that have darkvision -- otherwise you normally can just hide in darkness. Also note that, in total darkness, for creatures with darkvision, there are still shadows.


Darkvision is black and white only but otherwise like normal sight.

However, setting that aside, I would not personally go to "they must be within 10 feet of a shadow, not darkness," because if that's where you hang your hat, they need only cast light on something (or get any other permanently glowing object) and drop it into their backpack with some other stuff. Bam: shadows.

With regard to the "but relative light on other planets" comment... If we're going to kill catgirls, then your backpack is absolutely not a perfect seal -- there is some light that leaks in (even if you have to cut a small hole in it), and then voila: you can HiPS with the faint shadows of things in your bag.

If you're going to place a restriction, there are more reasonable ones that accomplish your goal of nerfing the ability. As I said above, ruling that you can't HiPS with stuff you carry because it's part of your own shadow is super reasonable and, as far as I'm concerned, RAW. As noted upthread, saying the shadow must be cast by a creature or object at least as large as you is a reasonable houserule, although it doesn't technically specify a minimum size.

That leaves your last remaining concern being "what if they hide at night or in a cave." I am really not concerned about the relative power of "but then they can hips at night or in a cave" because... so what? Normal creatures can hide in those conditions except against creatures with darkvision. There are so many ways to foil stealth in the first place, and it's an opposed check even if the NPCs don't have one of those. It's not problematic.

[Crake]

I'm glad I'm not playing at your table because darkness is relative. The light from the sun on mercury is 11 times brighter than can be found on earth. The difference in illumination is much more that of the shadow of a person from the sun due to the reflection of light into the shadow. Your definition implies that any enclosed space is good enough to qualify. Carry a hollow lead ball around and never have to worry about needing a shadow because it's dark inside the ball and thus is a shadow. Oh wait, why do that when the fact that any item you carry has its own shadow and isn't yours?

Now you're just being facetious. Attended items obviously count as you, so anything you carry would count

A more effective solution would be to carry around a parasol that you can plant into the ground to create a shadow. Or like I said, carry a sunstick and lob it at a generic spot near your enemies so it projects their shadows, even in the middle of the day, because yes, darkness IS relative, and even on a bright, overcast day where no shadows are being projected from the sun, a brightly burning sunstick would project areas of lower illumination that ARE in fact shadows.

I think you'll find that 99/100 there will generally be a shadow within 10 feet. Trying to make it more difficult to use just smacks of breaking grod's law.

[Darg]

Warlocks with blend into shadows can do that with magic darkness in a backpack

Why should shadowdancer break verisimilitude any more than that? Remember: it's a magical ability. It can break normal verisimilitude.

Shadowy illumination implies shadows and concealment implies being hard to see, I don't get how it breaks verisimilitude.


If they felt they had to specify you cannot hide in your own shadow, that means that hiding in people's shadows is perfectly allowable. Personally, I'd read that items you carry are part of your shadow. However, a friend or enemy standing next to you would let you hide in plain sight. At that point, it's just about trying to establish what shadow is large enough to hide in. As long as you have any creature within 10 feet of you, technically you could hide near their shadow or their gear -- which is where the shadow flanking buddy becomes relevant.

Then there's the comments about whether you can hide in darkness. First of all, that's only relevant against enemies that have darkvision -- otherwise you normally can just hide in darkness. Also note that, in total darkness, for creatures with darkvision, there are still shadows.

However, setting that aside, I would not personally go to "they must be within 10 feet of a shadow, not darkness," because if that's where you hang your hat, they need only cast light on something (or get any other permanently glowing object) and drop it into their backpack with some other stuff. Bam: shadows.

I never said you couldn't hide using characters' shadows. I just wouldn't allow anything smaller than something that can serve as a combat obstacle to be considered valid for the ability BECAUSE it gets as ridiculous as you make it sound. The universe is filled with light and 24/7 we are in somethings shadow no matter how bright the day or as devoid of texture your environment may be. Why specifically call out needing to be near a shadow if literally every blade of grass, flying insect, or even every atom flying through the air casts one? Probably because the writer for the class didn't expect players to be so "technically darkness is just shadow because there is always at least one photon being blocked at all times."


With regard to the "but relative light on other planets" comment... If we're going to kill catgirls, then your backpack is absolutely not a perfect seal -- there is some light that leaks in (even if you have to cut a small hole in it), and then voila: you can HiPS with the faint shadows of things in your bag.

If you're going to place a restriction, there are more reasonable ones that accomplish your goal of nerfing the ability. As I said above, ruling that you can't HiPS with stuff you carry because it's part of your own shadow is super reasonable and, as far as I'm concerned, RAW. As noted upthread, saying the shadow must be cast by a creature or object at least as large as you is a reasonable houserule, although it doesn't technically specify a minimum size.

That leaves your last remaining concern being "what if they hide at night or in a cave." I am really not concerned about the relative power of "but then they can hips at night or in a cave" because... so what? Normal creatures can hide in those conditions except against creatures with darkvision. There are so many ways to foil stealth in the first place, and it's an opposed check even if the NPCs don't have one of those. It's not problematic.

I'm not arguing RAW. RAW says you can HiPS within 10 ft of some sort of shadow as long as it isn't their own. This means the restrictions the author wrote are pointless because unless light simply doesn't exist you are never going to be beyond 0ft away from a shadow that isn't yours. What do I do? I do my job as a DM and either make the rules relevant or make them disappear. I simply chose to do the prior because it makes the ability interesting and require some tactical evaluation. I'm not against RAW, but I do like having interesting and fun mechanics rather than getting a near unbeatable invisibility that relies on raw stats to fail. Either I buff everythings' spot skill to a point where a shadow dancer can't rely on their hide skill, or I make the ability less powerful. Even true seeing can't prevent the hide check because the ability isn't granting any form of concealment by RAW.


Now you're just being facetious. Attended items obviously count as you, so anything you carry would count

A more effective solution would be to carry around a parasol that you can plant into the ground to create a shadow. Or like I said, carry a sunstick and lob it at a generic spot near your enemies so it projects their shadows, even in the middle of the day, because yes, darkness IS relative, and even on a bright, overcast day where no shadows are being projected from the sun, a brightly burning sunstick would project areas of lower illumination that ARE in fact shadows.

I think you'll find that 99/100 there will generally be a shadow within 10 feet. Trying to make it more difficult to use just smacks of breaking grod's law.

I only returned in kind.

I didn't realize that putting a limit on an overpowered ability would break grod's law, unless you are already nerfing it in your head and not realizing it.

[liquidformat]

What do YOU feel is the "spirit" of the ability?

What draws the line between an acceptable shadow and an unacceptable one?

For me, it's the presence of a distinct penumbramal shadow, diffused, blurred out umbral shadows do not count.

I have always had DMs go with the shadow has to be big enough for you to 'fit' into which seems pretty reasonable.


Basically anything big enough to alter the combat map in some way. A pebble on the road isn't acceptable, but a stone large enough to be considered an obstacle could cast a valid shadow. For larger sources of shadow like a mountain or a building, it needs to be visibly a shadow rather than something you just know is a shadow. The darkness of an alley is something you know is a shadow logically, but being in the alley it's just darkness. Similar to a cave entrance. My rule of thumb is that you need to see at least 2 edges or sides to the shadow for it to be valid. An alley with light visibly breaking through to bifurcate the floor or a visible lit street on the other end is valid (during the day). An alley that is dark as far as can possibly be seen is not valid.

This just seems arbitrary and obtuse for the sake of being obtuse. I mean even without HiPS jumping into a dark alleyway or the mouth of a cave on a bright day would be a pretty easy way to hide so I see no reason why someone with a superior ability to hide wouldn't be able to do the same...

[wilphe]

The ability says shadows, not darkness. If the moon is bright enough to cast shadows I don't see the difference.


What is night if it is not being in the shadow of the earth?

[Darg]

What is night if it is not being in the shadow of the earth?

I want you to really ask yourself, when are you not within an inch/cm of a shadow? Really think about it. Remember, technically being right is still being right. If you said never, that would be 100% correct. So then, what is the point of the ability author putting a limitation on your use of it? The intention was to put a limitation. So having some kind of limitation doesn't seem all that bad to me.


This just seems arbitrary and obtuse for the sake of being obtuse. I mean even without HiPS jumping into a dark alleyway or the mouth of a cave on a bright day would be a pretty easy way to hide so I see no reason why someone with a superior ability to hide wouldn't be able to do the same...

I don't know why you'd call it obtuse, my players seem to understand it quite readily, but arbitrary is right because putting any kind of limitation on the kind or size of shadow is arbitrary by definition. I defined these limitations because the author didn't do it themselves. They just added them. As for hiding in the alley/cave entrance, if it's dark enough for normal hide checks why would I want to include normal darkness in my defining of what constitutes valid shadows? I want the ability to be unique, not just say any and all darkness is a shadow (which is true as long as there is any light source still giving off light in the universe). So yes, it's arbitrary by design.

[Escheton]

How do you come about combat situations? Is it always a 'kick in the door, everyone roll for initiative, btw they are 15ft away and this is happening"?

Because the key to being a successful rogue is determining the engagement. It's about seeing without being seen, and thus being able to choose your moment. If the GM ignores all such rules, you're in a bigger pickle than just a lack of items. Your a wizard stuck in an antimagic zone made of plot.

[RNightstalker]

Spring attack is a really good option for getting sneak attacks off without much fear of devastating retaliation. It even has the side benefit of giving you the option to hide before and after you attack in melee. If you use earlier printings of the PHB or the SRD you even still get to use your move action for whatever you want like improved feint. It's also usable with melee thrown weapons for ranged sneak attacks.

I agree I think Spring Attack could be a great option that doesn't require what little magic you do have. It is a 3 feat tax, but while you're at it there are other feats like Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz that will let you make additional attacks during Spring Attack.

[rel]

I'd recommend either:

a) Periodic dips into Swordsage (at levels 5, 8, 11 and so forth) to gain survivability and sneak attack activators via maneuvers and stances.

b) multiclass wizard (make sure you grab some good ACF's) then prestige into Unseen Seer, with survivability and sneak attack access coming from spells.