As a sorcerer can I cheat my way into Ultimate Magus with only 1 level of Wizard?

[Oxylepy]

I'm looking for a way, with maybe 2 feat investments or perhaps a template, and a 1 level dip into Wizard, to pull off the entry requirement for Ultimate Magus with my sorcerer. Almost all the guides I see are heavily Wizard focused, and I realize this is for good reason, but I'm already level 8 and took my 1 level dip into Shadow Adept and am about to move into Shadowcrafter which should take me up to 8th level spells as a sorcerer. I was looking at Precocious Apprentice and there is some heated debate as to if it works.

[Darg]

Precocious Apprentice specifically denies that it grants you the ability to cast 2nd level spells. That's why people say it doesn't work.

As for getting what you want, the versatile spellcaster feat + caster level increases can get you where you want to be. A wizard knows any spell in their spell book. Versatile spellcaster with caster level 3rd gives you the undeniable ability to cast 2nd level spells, if you've learned them.

[Shinoskay]

I'm looking for a way, with maybe 2 feat investments or perhaps a template, and a 1 level dip into Wizard, to pull off the entry requirement for Ultimate Magus with my sorcerer. Almost all the guides I see are heavily Wizard focused, and I realize this is for good reason, but I'm already level 8 and took my 1 level dip into Shadow Adept and am about to move into Shadowcrafter which should take me up to 8th level spells as a sorcerer. I was looking at Precocious Apprentice and there is some heated debate as to if it works.

no, theres no way to specifically prepare spells from a spell book without more then 1 levels in a class that uses a spell book.
And thats specifically whats stops you "from a spell book". There are ways for a sorcerer to prepare spells, but not from a spell book.

You could do ranger wizard, sword of the arcane order, for preparing wizard spells in ranger slots and only picking up 1 level of wizard.... but this does not work for sorcerers.

Actually, RAW... barg is right.
RAI, its clear https://dndtools.net/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/versatile-spellcaster--3057/ is meant to combine SPONTANEOUS spell slots.... but it doesnt say that. So, yes, that actually would probably work.

[animewatcha]

arcane preparation feat??

[Morphic tide]

Precocious Apprentice specifically denies that it grants you the ability to cast 2nd level spells. That's why people say it doesn't work.
No, the original phrasing is "you get a slot, and cast the one spell from it". Having a caster level check to do so does not necessarily preclude that you're properly casting the 2nd-level spell. What gives a likely exclusion and indicates this is the RAI is the "Until you become able to cast 2nd level spells" wording, but it'd be far from the weirdest contradiction in the rules given that the same book is a source for the Dragon Disciple paradox. The hard "no" comes from page 72's explanation of why Warlocks and spell-like abilities don't work (and as such is dubious), and the errata classifying it as a distinct "chance to cast" rather than "true" ability to do so.

[Crake]

Precocious Apprentice specifically denies that it grants you the ability to cast 2nd level spells. That's why people say it doesn't work.

As for getting what you want, the versatile spellcaster feat + caster level increases can get you where you want to be. A wizard knows any spell in their spell book. Versatile spellcaster with caster level 3rd gives you the undeniable ability to cast 2nd level spells, if you've learned them.

Not with your wizard slots, as you aren't able to spontaneously cast from them.

You COULD use your SORCERER slots to spontaneously cast spells from your spellbook, now that they count as spells you know, but that's not your WIZARD casting. Still, it's a very solid feat on an ultimate magus, as it effectively gives your magus limited spontaneous casting from their spellbook

The easiest method however is simply to just get snowcasting and a 1st level cold spell, then just retrain/DCFS the feat later when you don't need it anymore.

[redking]

The simplest way to ask your DM to change the entry requirements.

Spellcasting: Able to prepare and cast 1st-level arcane spells from a spellbook and able to spontaneously cast 2nd-level arcane spells, OR able to spontaneously cast 1st-level arcane spells and able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook.

There is no mechanical or lore reason why the ultimate magus must have the wizard as the higher level class.

[Shinoskay]

arcane preparation feat??

thats the one that lets sorcerers prepare spells with metamagic, right?

If yes, I recall it not being from a spell book.

[InvisibleBison]

As for getting what you want, the versatile spellcaster feat + caster level increases can get you where you want to be. A wizard knows any spell in their spell book. Versatile spellcaster with caster level 3rd gives you the undeniable ability to cast 2nd level spells, if you've learned them.


The easiest method however is simply to just get snowcasting and a 1st level cold spell, then just retrain/DCFS the feat later when you don't need it anymore.

I don't think either of these approaches would work. Ultimate magus requires you to be "able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook", and while both versatile spellcaster and snowcasting let you cast a 2nd level arcane spell, neither of them lets you prepare a 2nd level arcane spell. With snowcasting, the increase in spell level only kick in when you cast the spell, so it's still 1st level when you prepare it; with versatile spellcaster, you don't prepare the spell at all.

[Darg]

No, the original phrasing is "you get a slot, and cast the one spell from it". Having a caster level check to do so does not necessarily preclude that you're properly casting the 2nd-level spell. What gives a likely exclusion and indicates this is the RAI is the "Until you become able to cast 2nd level spells" wording, but it'd be far from the weirdest contradiction in the rules given that the same book is a source for the Dragon Disciple paradox. The hard "no" comes from page 72's explanation of why Warlocks and spell-like abilities don't work (and as such is dubious), and the errata classifying it as a distinct "chance to cast" rather than "true" ability to do so.

Except you're understating its significance. Precocious Apprentice states "Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell" and "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot." The point of both statements is to tell you that there are two functionalities of the feat: for when you can't cast 2nd level spells and when you can. If the feat itself granted the ability to cast 2nd level spells, it wouldn't require or state anything that had to do with the before gaining the ability.


Not with your wizard slots, as you aren't able to spontaneously cast from them.

You COULD use your SORCERER slots to spontaneously cast spells from your spellbook, now that they count as spells you know, but that's not your WIZARD casting. Still, it's a very solid feat on an ultimate magus, as it effectively gives your magus limited spontaneous casting from their spellbook

The easiest method however is simply to just get snowcasting and a 1st level cold spell, then just retrain/DCFS the feat later when you don't need it anymore.

You can use your wizard slots to cast spells from your spellbook. There is no stipulation other than the ability to spontaneously cast spells as a prerequisite.


I don't think either of these approaches would work. Ultimate magus requires you to be "able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook", and while both versatile spellcaster and snowcasting let you cast a 2nd level arcane spell, neither of them lets you prepare a 2nd level arcane spell. With snowcasting, the increase in spell level only kick in when you cast the spell, so it's still 1st level when you prepare it; with versatile spellcaster, you don't prepare the spell at all.

Ack, I was going off of memory and didn't realize it was so specific. I guess this leaves a last ditch, more questionable version. The Magical Training feat from FRCS lets you prepare spells from a spellbook as a sorcerer. Add spells to your spellbook and then use the Arcane Preparation feat to "prepare and cast 2nd level spells from your spellbook." The only stipulation is that you know the spells. As the feat grants you knowledge of spells from its spellbook, you can technically prepare the spells using your sorcerer slots. This means you don't need versatile spellcaster and is a huge power spike for sorcerer, so getting access this way would be a lot harder for any DM to stomach. As a DM I'd be willing to simply swap the level requirements for prepared/spontaneous casting just to shut this down and keep the player happy considering they are going this far to simply get access to fun, not power.

[Morphic tide]

If the feat itself granted the ability to cast 2nd level spells, it wouldn't require or state anything that had to do with the before gaining the ability.
Again, the book has text for PRC ability loss upon losing prerequisites, explicitly aims to replace core PRCs, and thereby creates the Dragon Disciple paradox. This contortion is still well down the list of RAW weirdness the book introduces.

[Darg]

Again, the book has text for PRC ability loss upon losing prerequisites, explicitly aims to replace core PRCs, and thereby creates the Dragon Disciple paradox. This contortion is still well down the list of RAW weirdness the book introduces.

Complete Mage doesn't have the contradictory text CW and CArc does for losing class features. Thus there is no dragon disciple paradox (which doesn't exist by the way as its a core class and core doesn't have you lose PrC features if you no longer meet prerequisites). The 3.5 update removed that rule with the DMG being the primary source for PrCs and CW and CArc were in the middle of being written during the update so they still use some of the unupdated rules from the previous version of the game.

[Troacctid]

I don't think either of these approaches would work. Ultimate magus requires you to be "able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook", and while both versatile spellcaster and snowcasting let you cast a 2nd level arcane spell, neither of them lets you prepare a 2nd level arcane spell. With snowcasting, the increase in spell level only kick in when you cast the spell, so it's still 1st level when you prepare it; with versatile spellcaster, you don't prepare the spell at all.
Agreed. You need a free heighten effect that applies to a prepared spell. Eldritch Corruption should do the trick nicely if your campaign allows the corruption rules.

(Although if you have to ask your DM to allow you to start with moderate depravity, you might as well just ask them to flip the prerequisite, TBH.)


Again, the book has text for PRC ability loss upon losing prerequisites, explicitly aims to replace core PRCs, and thereby creates the Dragon Disciple paradox. This contortion is still well down the list of RAW weirdness the book introduces.
The Dragon Disciple Paradox is a myth anyway. The Dragon Apotheosis ability includes a specific override to the normal benefits of the half-dragon template, so you don't actually change your type (or suffer a level adjustment, or double-dip on the ability score bonuses). Also, the prerequisite says you can't already be a half-dragon; becoming one later is fine.

[Morphic tide]

Complete Mage doesn't have the contradictory text CW and CArc does for losing class features. Thus there is no dragon disciple paradox (which doesn't exist by the way as its a core class and core doesn't have you lose PrC features if you no longer meet prerequisites). The 3.5 update removed that rule with the DMG being the primary source for PrCs and CW and CArc were in the middle of being written during the update so they still use some of the unupdated rules from the previous version of the game.
Versatile Spellcaster is Races of the Dragon, Precocious Apprentice is Complete Arcane. Complete Mage is irrelevant here, and CW and CA re-introduce the rule to 3.5 without any mention of limitation of scope. The "primary source" rule isn't really a thing anyways given the Compendiums' whole point is overriding prior material, especially all the details Rules Compendium changes.


The Dragon Disciple Paradox is a myth anyway. The Dragon Apotheosis ability includes a specific override to the normal benefits of the half-dragon template, so you don't actually change your type (or suffer a level adjustment, or double-dip on the ability score bonuses). Also, the prerequisite says you can't already be a half-dragon; becoming one later is fine.
Given how parentheticals are overwhelmingly used as clarifications or reminders rather than as separate clauses in themselves, the "already" is not strictly binding. And there's not actually any text excluding anything the template does, it's that the very near totality of overlap is an obvious RAI signpost.

[Crake]

I don't think either of these approaches would work. Ultimate magus requires you to be "able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook", and while both versatile spellcaster and snowcasting let you cast a 2nd level arcane spell, neither of them lets you prepare a 2nd level arcane spell. With snowcasting, the increase in spell level only kick in when you cast the spell, so it's still 1st level when you prepare it; with versatile spellcaster, you don't prepare the spell at all.

That is a fair point, yeah, alright, snowcasting is out

[Chronos]

Everyone always talks about Dragon Disciple as a self-disqualifying PrC, but Ur-Priest is an even worse offender. It requires that you not be able to cast divine spells, and then right away at first level, it gives you the ability to cast divine spells.

[Darg]

Everyone always talks about Dragon Disciple as a self-disqualifying PrC, but Ur-Priest is an even worse offender. It requires that you not be able to cast divine spells, and then right away at first level, it gives you the ability to cast divine spells.

B-but dragon disciple is overpowered!

[Crake]

Everyone always talks about Dragon Disciple as a self-disqualifying PrC, but Ur-Priest is an even worse offender. It requires that you not be able to cast divine spells, and then right away at first level, it gives you the ability to cast divine spells.

Isn't that usually done in the context of arguing that prestige class requirements only need to be met at 1st level?

[Pinkie Pyro]

Except you're understating its significance. Precocious Apprentice states "Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell" and "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot." The point of both statements is to tell you that there are two functionalities of the feat: for when you can't cast 2nd level spells and when you can. If the feat itself granted the ability to cast 2nd level spells, it wouldn't require or state anything that had to do with the before gaining the ability.


The RAW does not state you don't count as 'able to cast 2nd level spells'. it merely says that if, as a result of leveling, you become able to cast 2nd level spells, you replace the effects of this feat with one additional spell slot.

that language specifies a trigger based prerequisite, it does not state 'you can't cast 2nd level spells'.

"When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells" is clearly a shorthand reference to that earlier trigger, but more importantly, as you already have to have the benefit of the feat in effect before that text is applied, you cannot 'become' something you already are. So either the line "you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would." never occurs due to a missed trigger, or it occurs when you're able to cast 2nd level spells for another reason.

or if you lose access to 2nd level spells and then regain them. int damage, prehaps?

regardless, Precocious Apprentice does qualify you as 'able to cast 2nd level spells.'

[St Fan]

Regardless, Precocious Apprentice does qualify you as 'able to cast 2nd level spells.'

No, Precocious Apprentice qualify as "able to cast a 2nd-level spell" (singular).
Not "spells". There's a difference.

[Oxylepy]

No, Precocious Apprentice qualify as "able to cast a 2nd-level spell" (singular).
Not "spells". There's a difference.

There are some solid arguments about PA not working, but this argument isn't one of them. You don't need 5 levels of sorcerer to qualify for mystic theurge because you only know 1 spell at 4th level, and you don't need 4th level of wizard because you only have 1 2nd level slot at 3rd level. The plurality is not an actual issue with PA.

[Darg]

The RAW does not state you don't count as 'able to cast 2nd level spells'. it merely says that if, as a result of leveling, you become able to cast 2nd level spells, you replace the effects of this feat with one additional spell slot.

that language specifies a trigger based prerequisite, it does not state 'you can't cast 2nd level spells'.

"When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells" is clearly a shorthand reference to that earlier trigger, but more importantly, as you already have to have the benefit of the feat in effect before that text is applied, you cannot 'become' something you already are. So either the line "you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would." never occurs due to a missed trigger, or it occurs when you're able to cast 2nd level spells for another reason.

or if you lose access to 2nd level spells and then regain them. int damage, prehaps?

regardless, Precocious Apprentice does qualify you as 'able to cast 2nd level spells.'

Your ability to cast second level spells is tied to class level and your ability score. Precocious Apprentice is making reference to these rules. It never states that it ever gives you the ability to cast second level spells and implicitly implies that is the case due to the fact that if it did it would negate part of itself. Trying too hard to separate the feat from the rules to allow your understanding is missing the most obvious outcome.

[noob]

no, theres no way to specifically prepare spells from a spell book without more then 1 levels in a class that uses a spell book.
And thats specifically whats stops you "from a spell book". There are ways for a sorcerer to prepare spells, but not from a spell book.

You could do ranger wizard, sword of the arcane order, for preparing wizard spells in ranger slots and only picking up 1 level of wizard.... but this does not work for sorcerers.

Actually, RAW... barg is right.
RAI, its clear https://dndtools.net/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/versatile-spellcaster--3057/ is meant to combine SPONTANEOUS spell slots.... but it doesnt say that. So, yes, that actually would probably work.

There is a feat that lets you prepare level 0 spells from a spellbook, this is however not useful for qualifying for ultimate magus.

[Pinkie Pyro]

It never states that it ever gives you the ability to cast second level spells.



"Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell."

So yeah, it does. spell slot and everything. What are you looking for here exactly? You gain a 2nd level spell slot, a single spell known/written down, and are able to cast it. That is 'the ability to cast a 2nd level spell.'



No, Precocious Apprentice qualify as "able to cast a 2nd-level spell" (singular).
Not "spells". There's a difference.


The issue is that prerequisites of "able to cast 2nd level spells" are inclusive-pluralities. It could be re-written as "Able to cast any number of 2nd level spells" and mean the same thing here.

[Troacctid]

"Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell."

So yeah, it does. spell slot and everything. What are you looking for here exactly? You gain a 2nd level spell slot, a single spell known/written down, and are able to cast it. That is 'the ability to cast a 2nd level spell.'
It doesn't give you the spell as a spell known, actually.

[Pinkie Pyro]

It doesn't give you the spell as a spell known, actually.

true... Ok so you have to learn the spell another way, I suppose, but once you write that down in your spellbook. And as far as I can find, there's nothing stopping you from adding higher level spells to your spellbook.

So you manually acquire the spell you've chosen, you're now able to cast 2nd level spells. or does the mere act of having a 2nd level spell slot, even with no available spells known, count?

[Psyren]

Illumian Krau Sigil maybe?

[Jay R]

Illumian Krau Sigil maybe?

Nice idea, but it doesn't work. That adds to the spell's CL, but it doesn't allow you to cast higher level spells.

Besides, the OP is talking about an existing 9th level PC -- Sorcerer 8 / Shadow Adept 1. It's a little late to choose his species.

---

Even if Precocious Apprentice could work in general, it can't help the OP. He's asking about an established 9th level character, and only a 1st-level character can take Precocious Apprentice.

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For those of us with less system mastery, are there any other classes besides Wizard and Wu Jen that cast spells from a spellbook, and can therefore be used for this side of Ultimate Magus?

---

Finally, it seems clear that for the OP's question (can this be done with only one level of Wizard?), the general answer is "No, unless you can convince your DM to allow Precocious Apprentice to qualify." [I'm not interested in that question; it has also become clear that there will be no universally accepted answer to that, which means it will be a DM judgment call.]

So if it can't be done with one level of Wizard, the next logical question is this: can it be done with only two levels of Wizard?

[Troacctid]

Nice idea, but it doesn't work. That adds to the spell's CL, but it doesn't allow you to cast higher level spells.

Besides, the OP is talking about an existing 9th level PC -- Sorcerer 8 / Shadow Adept 1. It's a little late to choose his species.
That's a fair point. If you're a high enough level, you could just prestige into Psi-Hunter (Dragon #281, page 84), which can prepare 2nd-level arcane spells at level 1.


Finally, it seems clear that for the OP's question (can this be done with only one level of Wizard?), the general answer is "No, unless you can convince your DM to allow Precocious Apprentice to qualify." [I'm not interested in that question; it has also become clear that there will be no universally accepted answer to that, which means it will be a DM judgment call.]
Oi, Eldritch Corruption still works fine!

[Darg]

"Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell."

So yeah, it does. spell slot and everything. What are you looking for here exactly? You gain a 2nd level spell slot, a single spell known/written down, and are able to cast it. That is 'the ability to cast a 2nd level spell.'

The issue is that prerequisites of "able to cast 2nd level spells" are inclusive-pluralities. It could be re-written as "Able to cast any number of 2nd level spells" and mean the same thing here.

You're reading way too far into it. "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells" means that when you are able to cast 2nd level spells x happens. If x doesn't happen you aren't able to cast 2nd level spells. No need for mental gymnastics to prove .9 repeating equals 1.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sanctum Spell (CArc) would let your 1st level spells count as 2nd level ones when cast in your sanctum. You'd have to level up in your sanctum until you get 2nd level spells from Ultimate Magus to self-qualify, but you should be good until then, since you'd keep the benefits even if you no longer have the prereqs; you just couldn't level up outside your sanctum until you get 2nds as noted above.

[InvisibleBison]

Sanctum Spell (CArc) would let your 1st level spells count as 2nd level ones when cast in your sanctum. You'd have to level up in your sanctum until you get 2nd level spells from Ultimate Magus to self-qualify, but you should be good until then, since you'd keep the benefits even if you no longer have the prereqs; you just couldn't level up outside your sanctum until you get 2nds as noted above.

I think this runs into the same issue as versatile spellcaster and snowcasting: Ultimate Magus requires you to be able to both prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells from a spellbook, but Sanctum Spell only increases the level of the spell when you cast it. When you prepare it it's still just 1st level.