How Should the Lich's Phylactery Work?

[Dausuul]

The recent "Vampire vs Lich" thread got me thinking a bit about liches and how they work.

According to the rules, if you want to destroy a lich, you have to both destroy its body and smash its phylactery. I generally house-rule that destroying the phylactery is sufficient. My reasoning is:

1) It's more internally consistent with the idea that the lich's life force/soul is stored in the phylactery.
2) It offers more options for adventure design. If destroying the phylactery is sufficient to destroy the lich, then I can set up a lich who's way too high-level for the PCs to take on directly, and still give them a quest to destroy it. And if I want them to fight the lich, that's easy enough to arrange.
3) It just seems cooler that way. :smallcool:

What does everyone else think? Do you prefer to go by the rules as written, or do you think destruction of the phylactery ought to take the lich with it?

[Mr. Friendly]

I prefer the Lich must be destroyed as well. I wouldn't let the Lich remake a phylactery though. The guidelines say that creating the phylactery is part of becoming a Lich, since he is already a Lich... no new Phylactery.

[XiaoTie]

When DM'ing my motto is something around the lines of "whatever floats your boat", and that makes me agree with all 3 points you mentioned. In this way of making the game (phylactery gone = lich dead) the phylactery kind of resembles the One Ring of Sauron, that when destroyed would take Sauron's power away. For that some may say that it would be a little cliché, but it can be fun nonetheless (heck, Rowling did something like that and the final book wasn't bad :smalltongue:)

To also make them fight the Lich, like Mr. Friendly said, you could drain most of the Lich's power after the destruction of the phylactery, and make him hard enough for your players as a challenging or hard battle.

[mostlyharmful]

Yup, life-and-soul-thingy broken = ex-Lich.

It just fits the idea better, plus it gives the impression (as astral projection should have) that your soul and your mind doesn't actually move, its there in the Phylactery. Instead you move your old body around like a puppet, occassionally needing to rebuild it. This explains why nothing short of destroying the phylactery slows you down, why you're an intelligent undead that's immune to Mind-affecting effects and why you can't just build anouther one for 120kgp and 4.8kxp, your own immortal soul being something of a rarity.

[Kaelik]

Yup, life-and-soul-thingy broken = ex-Lich.

It just fits the idea better, plus it gives the impression (as astral projection should have) that your soul and your mind doesn't actually move, its there in the Phylactery. Instead you move your old body around like a puppet, occassionally needing to rebuild it. This explains why nothing short of destroying the phylactery slows you down, why you're an intelligent undead that's immune to Mind-affecting effects and why you can't just build anouther one for 120kgp and 4.8kxp, your own immortal soul being something of a rarity.

Actually, most intelligent undead are immune to mind effecting effects as well.

[sikyon]

This signifigantly reduces the power of a Lich, so you should take that into account.

But also, beware: Your players may metagame and force an encounter with the Lich, anyways.

Edit: The body needing to be destroyed is also a reflection of flavor that the WHOLE soul of the lich isn't in the phylacraty, just a part of it. The rest is in the body. THe phylacraty could act as a beacon to draw it back and regrow the body, or splice abit of the soul in the phylacraty off, or something like that.

[Mewtarthio]

But also, beware: Your players may metagame and force an encounter with the Lich, anyways.

Why? Wouldn't that be like metagaming and plane shifting to Baator to force an enconter with Asmodeus? Or metagaming and not using a save-or-lose spell to end an encounter easily? Either the lich is way out of their league (the former case) or destroying the phylactery yields the same xp as killing the lich itself, since they're part of the same encounter (the latter case).

[kamikasei]

(heck, Rowling did something like that and the final book wasn't bad :smalltongue:)

Not really. Voldemort was much more like the standard lich if it could have multiple phylacteries. The goal of eliminating his Horcruxes was to make him vulnerable, not to harm him directly, and it was only after they were all destroyed that he, still going, was killed.

[Rigon]

you are forgetting the items of the lich. those are not in the phylactery but on the lich's body. metagaming might mean "aim for the loot".

i would say destroying a phylactery means that the lich is downgraded to a wizard of lower level +undead (removing lichness). and the wizard could still be "truly resurrected" as stated in another thread. so he could run away, return to life, and make another phylactery. i think this is a fitting way to picture a wizards struggle against death. it's a sort of a liché/cliché.

[Dausuul]

you are forgetting the items of the lich. those are not in the phylactery but on the lich's body. metagaming might mean "aim for the loot".

That's not metagaming, it's just greedy PCs. I also don't think it's a major issue. If I don't want them to fight the lich, then it will crush them effortlessly should they try (depending on how stupid I think they're being, I may or may not furnish them ahead of time with a scroll of escape-from-the-lich to avert a TPK). And if I do want them to fight it, there's no problem.

In any case, my experience has been that most players are smart enough to grasp that, when a monster is described as being crazy powerful, and they're presented with a way to destroy it that does not involve facing it in direct combat, perhaps facing it in direct combat is not the best idea.

[XiaoTie]

Not really. Voldemort was much more like the standard lich if it could have multiple phylacteries. The goal of eliminating his Horcruxes was to make him vulnerable, not to harm him directly, and it was only after they were all destroyed that he, still going, was killed.

notice the "did something like that" part, instead of "did that" :smallwink:

[Bender]

A related issue: does the lich know when his phylactery is destroyed. Initially, I'd say yes, a he still has some connection with that part of his soul. He might also teleport in angrily, or spring a trap or something if that happens.
On the other hand, I'd like to see the look on the face of the dying lich, when in his dying "breath" he finally realises it's all over. Could make a dramatic end-scene.

This all in case the lich doesn't die when the phylactery is destroyed. Concerning that, I could swing both ways, depending on the situation and the drama :smallcool:.

[shadowdemon_lord]

That's not metagaming, it's just greedy PCs. I also don't think it's a major issue. If I don't want them to fight the lich, then it will crush them effortlessly should they try (depending on how stupid I think they're being, I may or may not furnish them ahead of time with a scroll of escape-from-the-lich to avert a TPK). And if I do want them to fight it, there's no problem.

In any case, my experience has been that most players are smart enough to grasp that, when a monster is described as being crazy powerful, and they're presented with a way to destroy it that does not involve facing it in direct combat, perhaps facing it in direct combat is not the best idea.

Haha, most. I've heard of 14th level PC's attacking a fortress guarded by elemental cannons and high level archers (with a massive killing field). They had recently seen a patrol of lizardmen attack the fortress and get pummeled into oblivion in a round by a hail of arrows and massive blasts of elemental energy from cannons installed on the fortress. Right after seeing this display of power, they proceeded to charge the fortress. Combats you aren't supposed to fight occur with a bit of frequency in this campaign, and they'd played it since first level. Never underestimate PC's stupidity.

[Chrizzt]

@shadowdemon_lord
Stupidity.. heroism... all in the same league... Hm.. on the other hand.. we're playing an evil group for mor than a year and are stupid while not heroic.. well, lets stick to >>stupid<< ; )

I agree that the destruction of a phylactery should result in the destruction of the lich (as a lich) as well. Why should the soul return into the body and not fade away into afterlife? If one's body is slain the soul does not possess an other body (similarity: if a lich already has to possess an non-original body because his own corpse has been destroyd once.. no own body to return to)

[Craig1f]

A related issue: does the lich know when his phylactery is destroyed. Initially, I'd say yes, a he still has some connection with that part of his soul. He might also teleport in angrily, or spring a trap or something if that happens.
On the other hand, I'd like to see the look on the face of the dying lich, when in his dying "breath" he finally realises it's all over. Could make a dramatic end-scene.

This all in case the lich doesn't die when the phylactery is destroyed. Concerning that, I could swing both ways, depending on the situation and the drama :smallcool:.

I was so close to pointing out that Liches don't breath, until I saw your quotes.

[hylian chozo]

I'd personally rule that the lich goes insane. Not the "intelligent but demented" or the "centuries alone" insane, more like the "mindless destruction- No more spells I'll melee everything in sight" insane (AKA PC insane). Just play him as a normal, unintelligent undead. Seriously, his soul was just destroyed.

[ErrantX]

Another thought:

Have the destruction of the phylactery be rumored to destroy the lich, and when the PCs do it, the lich's power is simply broken, and it is not destroyed. The lich's will is so strong that it can survive even the death of it's soul, though it's power may be broken. Build the lich as an Eldritch Knight type of caster (high on attack bonus and spells and have it melee the PCs after that with some reduced spellcasting ability.

That would be a very surprised group of PCs when they find that smashing the lich's phylactery didn't just up and end it without a fight, but it will make the situation fairly memorable.

-X

[Chrizzt]

Have a look at this, lads and lasses:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20070911a

Its "only" the FAQ, but they're kind of official...
of course one could argue after the destruction of a phyl. someone is not a lich anymore, and if he creates a new one he is a "new" lich, but this is kinda cheesy

[kamikasei]

notice the "did something like that" part, instead of "did that" :smallwink:

But it was exactly unlike that in exactly the way that's being discussed. Sauron's Ring contained his power and, if destroyed, dispersed his power and vanquished him. Voldemort's Horcruxes acted as backups and, as any or eventually all of them were destroyed, left him with less of a safety net but didn't affect his own power or damage him in any way - only made him vulnerable. He had to actually be attacked and destroyed himself once they had all been taken out. This is just like a conventional lich who can keep going after his phylactery is destroyed, and exactly unlike the proposed insta-kill lich proposed in this thread, or Sauron.

[Saint George]

If you really feel like screwing with the PCs make it so everyone believes that destroying the Phylactery will destroy the lich, but instead make destroying it make things worse. When the soul dies the lich's negative energy and magic fueled body goes berserk. What was once a carefully controlled undead wizard is now a mindless death machine with no reservations and a more powerful link to the negative energy plane fueling his bones.

Make them miss the old lich. :smallyuk:

Just an idea.

[shadow_archmagi]

Hmm... on one hand, I rather like the idea of the whole "stabbing the sword into the big relic of power and then the lich is all screaming and explodes" but I also like the idea of the lich with no backup.. knowing that its own death would be a simple matter...


Also, are there OTHER objects of power that could help prevent death? Ahnk of Reincarnation? Phoenix Down? Magic Mushroom?

[Mr. Friendly]

If *I* were a BBEG Lich....

I would have my Phylactery well guarded/hidden. (Obviously)

Prior to (and/or during) my ascent to Lichdom, I would take multiple flesh samples and keep them preserved across multiple planes of existance and in multiple locations. Then I'd set up some sort of elaborate Clone Contingency situation, so in the event of my untimely death at the hands of some adventuring party and destruction of my phylactery, my clone would pop up and be ready for action in a few months. Then I could just make a new Phylactery, re-lichify myself and set up the whole thing again.

[olelia]

Haha, most. I've heard of 14th level PC's attacking a fortress guarded by elemental cannons and high level archers (with a massive killing field). They had recently seen a patrol of lizardmen attack the fortress and get pummeled into oblivion in a round by a hail of arrows and massive blasts of elemental energy from cannons installed on the fortress. Right after seeing this display of power, they proceeded to charge the fortress. Combats you aren't supposed to fight occur with a bit of frequency in this campaign, and they'd played it since first level. Never underestimate PC's stupidity.

Off topic...but do you play Living Arcanis?If soo...Queen's Castle? :smallconfused:

[SITB]

I thought a phylactery was like some sort of a beckon for the soul. So when the lich dies, his soul drifts back to the phylactery and he starts regenerating. Thus, destroying the lich's phylactery, should destroy a part of him; but not kill him outright.

On the other hand, I always thought about lichdom as the "next step" in the Soul Jar (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoulJar) buisness; so it would have less drawbacks then your average Soul Jar (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoulJar).

[Lapak]

I hadn't ever thought about it, but now I can see how this could be interesting. Assuming that the phylactery keeps the soul of the lich safe, and his body is no longer responsible for this, I can see how a cross between the two courses could be very satisfying:

If a lich's phylactery is destroyed, he cannot make a replacement; his safety line that holds his soul together has been destroyed. But he doesn't instantly fall apart, either - instead, as his soul begins to unravel into nothingness, he gradually loses his sanity and eventually degrades into a mindless undead creature.

It means that the destruction is necessary, but has immediate repurcussions if you can't deal with the lich too: he'll die, but in the short term he will be absolutely furious with nothing to lose, and in the medium term he'll be flat-out bonkers. If it's the only way you can destroy him, so be it; eventually he'll decay into a non-spellcasting skeleton with a few extra abilities, even if he tears a kingdom apart first.

It also adds some pathos to the decision to become a lich. You get eternal life, but if your phylactery is ever destroyed - and 'ever' is a loooooong time - you won't be going to any kind of afterlife; you'll just be suffering a slow decay into absolute nonexistence as your soul dissipates into the Astral Plane.

[kamikasei]

If you really feel like screwing with the PCs make it so everyone believes that destroying the Phylactery will destroy the lich, but instead make destroying it make things worse. When the soul dies the lich's negative energy and magic fueled body goes berserk. What was once a carefully controlled undead wizard is now a mindless death machine with no reservations and a more powerful link to the negative energy plane fueling his bones.

Make them miss the old lich. :smallyuk:

Just an idea.

Oooh, a mindless wizard. That's real intimidating.

[Jade_Tarem]

Chances are, he meant a frenzied wizard, not a mindless one. If you want an idea of how that works, read the end of The Last Command, where Joruus C'baoth (a Dark Jedi Master) goes from a little bit (just a tasteful amount) evil and demented to absolute stark raving psychotic.

The "the phylactery's destruction kills the lich" thing is an idea, but if that's how the campaign world works then chances are that the lich would take even greater measures than normal to keep his "soul hidey place" secure. Remember that the lich is a sneaky, tricky little punk and will likely pull something brilliant. Examples include:

The phylactery is in a cube of force at the bottom of the ocean and is protected from divinations.

The phylactery is in a cube of force in orbit, and is protected from divinations.

The phlactery is engaged in constant, random teleportation.

The phylactery is an unmarked ring with a nystul's magic aura upon it, found in the lich's treasure vault. The lich is carrying on him, however, a small, ornate box reeking of negative energy.

The phylactery is animated, and quite powerful.

The phylactery is trapped in such a way as to scare the living hell out of a ToH veteran.

The phylactery is inside an artifact.

The phylactery is inside something absolutely integral to the stability of the world.

[sikyon]

Why? Wouldn't that be like metagaming and plane shifting to Baator to force an enconter with Asmodeus? Or metagaming and not using a save-or-lose spell to end an encounter easily? Either the lich is way out of their league (the former case) or destroying the phylactery yields the same xp as killing the lich itself, since they're part of the same encounter (the latter case).

No, if the players KNOW that they have to destroy the lich to kill him, then they will do just that. Somehow. But they know it has to be done, so they will aim to do it.