Fighting against 2 people in a single 5-foot square? (and other zany questions)

[SpikeFightwicky]

I couldn't find a RAW entry any of these, so I decided not to put it in the sticky'd thread.

Question the first: Character X enters an empty elevator. Right as the doors are about to close, 2 well dressed gentlement enter the elevator. As the elevator begins to ascend, one pulls out a knife and the other pulls out a gun, with the intent of killing character X (nevermind why). A fight begins. Thing is, an elevator is more or less a single 5 foot square. The rules state that this can't happen, but unless this is a service elevator, there's only a single 5 foot space to work in (which seems causes a division by zero by RAW, since no more than one creature can occupy a single 5 foot space). What kind of combat modifiers should apply? I'm not sure if squeezing penalties would apply because those are terrain modifiers for moving through/into 2.5 foot space. Available maneuvering space would be different in this case.

Q2: The characters are in building Y, when the power goes out. Building Y's backup generator kicks in, but isn't quite up to the task of providing full power. As such, alot of the lighting aren't getting adequate power and are either off or randomly flickering. What kind of concealment or cover would this provide? Suppose something was approaching from the other end of a hallway filled with flickering lights. Should it give some kind of concealment hit mischance, or attack penalties since the creature seems be moving awckwardly in stop motion? Would it apply to melee combat too?

Last question: The PCs are firing at creature Z behind a chain-link fence. The d20 Modern SRD doesn't give any info (that I could find), so I was thinking of giving cover AC bonus creature Z (fence provides some chance of altering the projectile's path, maybe +1 or +2), but the following may make sense as well: give a small (10%?) chance that the projectile hits a link and is stopped (I'm not sure if a chain link will stop a bullet or arrow if hit directly) or give a small amount of DR (1/- or 2/-) to represent the fence links absorbing some kinetic energy. Problem with the latter is that it assumes that all projectiles will hit the fence. Any suggestions?

[rollfrenzy]

Not sure about the other two, but your average elevator is actually much bigger then 5x5. More like 10x10 or bigger, which would provide four hexes to fight in.

[Ulrichomega]

1: I would say that tiny (in DnD terms) daggers and such would work, due to their small size. Guns would also work, but with a lower attack bonus, due to the inability to aim correctly. Now, this would probably be nullified by the fact that the gun is right in the dudes face, but whatever you want.

2: Rule that for every attack, there is a 10% chance that the lights go out at the exact second the attack is being unleashed. If that happens, the target is effectively invisible. For all other attack, I think it would be whatever minimum cover would be due to the low lighting.

3: Sounds good.

Hope these are good guidelines.

EDIT:

Not sure about the other two, but your average elevator is actually much bigger then 5x5. More like 10x10 or bigger, which would provide four hexes to fight in.

More like 7x7, not 10x10. So it would be effectivly 5x5 for combat purposes.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Not sure about the other two, but your average elevator is actually much bigger then 5x5. More like 10x10 or bigger, which would provide four hexes to fight in.

The elevator I take up to my floor every day is 4.5x5, and other than service elevators, it's about the average I've been in, with some hotel elevators being 1 or 2 feet longer on one end. Also, keep in mind I mean the interior of the elevator, not the overall outer perimeter. 10x10 is WAY too big for a non-service elevator.

[rollfrenzy]

EDIT:


More like 7x7, not 10x10. So it would be effectivly 5x5 for combat purposes.

Yeah, but isn't it easier to round up then try to houserule on a largely unimportant issue?

[Ulrichomega]

Yeah, but isn't it easier to round up then try to houserule on a largely unimportant issue?

Meh, I was compromising, and you can't have 4 5x5 squares in a 7x7 space, so yes, it would be much closer to 5x5 then 10x10 due to the fact that we're talking about area, not how close 5 is to 7.

[Jack Zander]

1st Q: You could consider them all grappled.

[cupkeyk]

This was answered by customer service ages ago with a well or barrel scenario. They are "effectively" grappling. They all take -4 to attack rolls with light weapons and may use grapple checks to fight intsead of bab.

[MCerberus]

Hero/RPG characters have a distinct ability to change the perceived size of themselves and their surroundings. It's common for a space to small to hold everyone being somehow big enough now to fit everyone (gee that bar seemed smaller before we started a fight and needed a map). Using historic examples I'd say the elevator is now 10x10.

[SpikeFightwicky]

1st Q: You could consider them all grappled.


This was answered by customer service ages ago with a well or barrel scenario. They are "effectively" grappling. They all take -4 to attack rolls with light weapons and may use grapple checks to fight intsead of bab.

Good stuff! I guess that's the closest I'll get to an official answer for Q1. Thinking about it now, it seems to work out fine.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Hero/RPG characters have a distinct ability to change the perceived size of themselves and their surroundings. It's common for a space to small to hold everyone being somehow big enough now to fit everyone (gee that bar seemed smaller before we started a fight and needed a map). Using historic examples I'd say the elevator is now 10x10.

I thought about doing this (kind of like 'zooming in' to make the 5x5 space seem 'bigger' by splitting it into 4 2.5x2.5 squares), but it wouldn't fly with my group. One of the players is still razzed for drawing a compact car that took up a 20x20 space.

[Sebastian]

q2, you could give them a small miss chance, as if they are fighitng in darkness/an inivsible enemy, only a 10% rather than 50%.

As alternative, use the DM's best friends, the +2/-2 situational modifiers

3) the +1 to AC sound easier and better to me.

[NotCC]

I believe they all become squeezed. From the SRD

Squeezing
In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.

When a Large creature (which normally takes up four squares) squeezes into a space that’s one square wide, the creature’s miniature figure occupies two squares, centered on the line between the two squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.

A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square.

To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space’s width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can’t attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a -4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

[tyckspoon]

q1. Make 'em all be 'grappled' sounds easiest.

Q2. Shadowy illumination would be the closest thing in the standard rules, possibly with a few areas that are just completely dark where none of the lights are working. That gives everybody in the area concealment (standard miss chance is 20%) and the ability to make Hide checks. You could alter the miss chance to represent greater or lesser light levels.

Q3. You'd need a fence with unusually close links or a broadhead arrow in order to get any real benefit from standing behind a chainlink fence, I think. I would give at most a +1 or +2 AC (1 for the typical fence, 2 for an unusually solid one.) It's definitely not enough for concealment or a miss chance.

[Ralfarius]

I would almost say to not give any AC bonus for the average chain link fence. There's much more open space than metal, and the metal portions are pretty thin. At a greater distance, it could potentially cause some obfuscation of vision, but that might better translate into a very small miss chance than a bonus to AC.