Is V a weakness for the team due to the IFCC?

[MoiMagnus]

In particular, there are two things that come to my mind:

(1) In order to determine when to take over V's body, the IFCC are constantly spying on V. Do you an "continuous-scrying" was included in the contract that V signed? If yes, this means that the IFCC now know how to go through all the defences of the last gate...

(2) Do you think the IFCC could have lied about not being able to possess V? Maybe they wanted V to feel confident that the contract did not include possession, just to backstab them at the end?

And as a bonus question, how do you think Serini would react when/if she learn about V's situation?

[ZhonLord]

In particular, there are two things that come to my mind:

(1) In order to determine when to take over V's body, the IFCC are constantly spying on V. Do you an "continuous-scrying" was included in the contract that V signed? If yes, this means that the IFCC now know how to go through all the defences of the last gate...

(2) Do you think the IFCC could have lied about not being able to possess V? Maybe they wanted V to feel confident that the contract did not include possession, just to backstab them at the end?

And as a bonus question, how do you think Serini would react when/if she learn about V's situation?

1. The fiends can watch V any time they want. If the upper planes can view through any anti-scryomg measures at will (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html), there's no reason to assume the lower planes can't do the same. Between the three of them, I'm sure they can easily keep tabs at all times.

2. No. Their explicit phrasing was that they get to hold V's soul (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html), nothing more. The elf's body is the elf's rightful property, and was not part of the contract. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html) it's possible Sabine could jump in, or potentially someone unaffiliated with the IFCC, but I seriously doubt the fiends will allow it due to the nature of how they've worked to date. Besides, taking V out of the Xykon fight is more than crippling enough to ensure the fight will be harsh for both sides, and give the fiends their destructive unnecessary conflict. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)

As to the tactical side of the equation, Roy is already taking V's potential drop out of the fight into account. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html). This is also why he's happy to have as much help as possible. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1281.html)

Because there's a drawback in the fiends' agenda. If the heroes can drag out the fight long enough, then when V returns to action the elf will have a complete arsenal of spells to cast. They might even be more magically capable than Xykon at that point, with how much the latter likes to spam high tier spells. If V returns at the right time, team Evil might be in serious trouble.

[Unoriginal]

In particular, there are two things that come to my mind:

(1) In order to determine when to take over V's body, the IFCC are constantly spying on V. Do you an "continuous-scrying" was included in the contract that V signed? If yes, this means that the IFCC now know how to go through all the defences of the last gate...

Scrying is not part of the contract, but it's unlikely that the Gate would be safe from the Fiends' divinations even if Vaarsuvius didn't do the deal.

The IFCC was keeping tabs on Vaarsuvius and Xykon for months, despite Xykon being protected from that kind of things by Epic magic.



(2) Do you think the IFCC could have lied about not being able to possess V? Maybe they wanted V to feel confident that the contract did not include possession, just to backstab them at the end?

Them outright lying about the contract is next to impossible. That would void the contract and destroy their leverage.

That being said, the three Fiends are extremely powerful, so there is likely nothing stopping them from attempting to possess Vaarsuvius or anyone else using other methods than the contract.

While the IFCC are content to not brute force things yet, no one should make the mistake that they *cannot* brute force things.



And as a bonus question, how do you think Serini would react when/if she learn about V's situation?

Depends which part.

"I'm burdened by the consequences of a deal with Fiends" would probably have Serini go "Damn, tough luck, elf. I hope you can resolve that if the world doesn't end."

"There are three Fiends who can bring me to the Lower Planes for ~30 minutes at any time, and they're keeping tabs on me" would likely earn them a "alright, you have firepower but you're also a liability, so you stay here and fortify this as much as you can. And make things that last even if you get called down, if you can."

The "I murdered hundreds if not thousands of sapient beings during a magically-empowered ego trip" part, though? Serini, or anyone else for that matter, learning about it would create some major complications.

Which makes me think the three Fiends could just reveal that to the rest of the group if they needed the Order & friends in disarray without using their "Elf on a Hell" time.

[Errorname]

I'd be shocked if V got possessed, but I also doubt the fiends are going to pull the exact same stunt as last time. Maybe another soul splice with V as one of the souls

[Somniloquist]

The "I murdered hundreds if not thousands of sapient beings during a magically-empowered ego trip" part, though? Serini, or anyone else for that matter, learning about it would create some major complications.

Which makes me think the three Fiends could just reveal that to the rest of the group if they needed the Order & friends in disarray without using their "Elf on a Hell" time.
I will not be at all shocked if the IFCC's next move involves showing up in person, at the worst possible time, and revealing that.

[Provengreil]

I'd be shocked if V got possessed, but I also doubt the fiends are going to pull the exact same stunt as last time. Maybe another soul splice with V as one of the souls

That's an interesting thought. Most uses for souls in D&D related settings are permanent, so temporary custody would usually score a fiend nothing at all. But if they can hawk out V's casting ability for one battle, that would be quite significant if they had the right buyer.

Still, I'm inclined to think the caster needs to ultimately agree to being part of the splice to be used that way. More likely the council's only play is to remand V's soul to their custody, possibly show or say something to prod V in a given direction. Taking a party's high level wizard off the board with no warning is a heck of a power play as is.

[Kish]

Hopefully. It would be anticlimactic if the IFCC's big plan turned out to work just as well with no Vaarsuvius at all as with a Vaarsuvius who owes them.

The one time the IFCC has used their time thus far, the result would have been the same (no Vaarsuvius around protesting the destruction of the Gate) if Vaarsuvius had simply been disintegrated by Xykon in the six hundreds.

[The MunchKING]

I will not be at all shocked if the IFCC's next move involves showing up in person, at the worst possible time, and revealing that.

I mean she already told Roy, and possibly the others in an attempt to explain the leverage and seek absolution, so the team might not be that shocked by it.

[Errorname]

That's an interesting thought. Most uses for souls in D&D related settings are permanent, so temporary custody would usually score a fiend nothing at all. But if they can hawk out V's casting ability for one battle, that would be quite significant if they had the right buyer.

Still, I'm inclined to think the caster needs to ultimately agree to being part of the splice to be used that way. More likely the council's only play is to remand V's soul to their custody, possibly show or say something to prod V in a given direction. Taking a party's high level wizard off the board with no warning is a heck of a power play as is.

My thinking leans heavily towards the Fiends next plot involving some sort of soul splice. Hence "the Vessel" which I'm assuming is going to be either Tarquin or Thog, although I'm not sure how much will be left.

[Unoriginal]

Honestly, if soul splice happens again during the comic, I expect it to be an "heroic version", perhaps involving the Order of the Scribble.

Rather than a repeat of the evil one.

[ZhonLord]

Honestly, if soul splice happens again during the comic, I expect it to be an "heroic version", perhaps involving the Order of the Scribble.

Rather than a repeat of the evil one.

Heh. Imagine V getting hold of the shiny black gem Xykon is holding, and splicing those souls for a combined effort against the lich. souls of (spoiler) and (spoiler) anyone? (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?662495-What-s-going-to-happen-to-the-souls-of-(spoiler)-and-(spoiler))

But I doubt that'll be the case. No, I'm fairly certain now that all the IFCC needs to do is shut V down long enough to fire up their artifact (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) without giving the elf a chance to analyze and counter its magical effects. This artifact is a wild card that throws many of our suppositions out the window because we literally can't see the entirety of the IFCC's plan.

EDIT: yes, including my own suppositions, my earlier post was only taking the Order and Team Evil's plans into account.

[faustin]

Heh. Imagine V getting hold of the shiny black gem Xykon is holding, and splicing those souls for a combined effort against the lich. souls of (spoiler) and (spoiler) anyone? (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?662495-What-s-going-to-happen-to-the-souls-of-(spoiler)-and-(spoiler))

But I doubt that'll be the case. No, I'm fairly certain now that all the IFCC needs to do is shut V down long enough to fire up their artifact (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) without giving the elf a chance to analyze and counter its magical effects. This artifact is a wild card that throws many of our suppositions out the window because we literally can't see the entirety of the IFCC's plan.

EDIT: yes, including my own suppositions, my earlier post was only taking the Order and Team Evil's plans into account.

This is my analysis as well. Except with an epic soul empowered Vaarsuvius keeping Xykon busy for a while, showing V's character development through improved tactics in a caster battle against a superior opponent.

[Somniloquist]

Hm, no, I can't agree. Partly because I can't imagine the IFCC helping to defeat Xykon without there being a world-endangering catch*, but mostly because V's arc has been about letting go of power trips, so learning to use Ultimate Arcane Power more effectively would be missing the point.


*That said, whatever the fiends have in store is probably not the same thing as Xykon getting everything he wants, so he probably has just as much to fear from them as anyone.

[Psyren]

Hopefully. It would be anticlimactic if the IFCC's big plan turned out to work just as well with no Vaarsuvius at all as with a Vaarsuvius who owes them.

Exactly this. Of course it's a weakness, that's what makes it a good plot point.

Besides, what's the alternative - should V never do anything important ever again? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html)

[Kardwill]

My thinking leans heavily towards the Fiends next plot involving some sort of soul splice. Hence "the Vessel" which I'm assuming is going to be either Tarquin or Thog, although I'm not sure how much will be left.

Sabine is doing the vessel-shopping, so I'd guess she would try to fit Nale's soul in this role if she can.
Unless being a vessel includes being alive to start with, feeling excruciating pain and/or being horribly humiliated, in which case, yes, I agree, she's going for Tarquin.

[Precure]

They will use V's body and another body/vessel that belongs to a cleric to cast the spell that Redcloak wanted to use.

[Errorname]

They will use V's body and another body/vessel that belongs to a cleric to cast the spell that Redcloak wanted to use.

I fully believe the Fiends when they say V's body wasn't part of the deal. Whatever they're planning, they don't need it.

[Kardwill]

And whatever they're planning, Hel destroying the world was percieved as a good thing for The Plan.

[Diachronos]

The IFCC won't possess V's body. Don't forget that one of them is Lawful Evil, and the whole arrangement with the Soul Splice was part of a contract. For all their wickedness and trickery, Lawful Evil outsiders do not break contracts that they've made. The biggest danger that the IFCC poses to the Order of the Stick right now is their ability to yoink V out of the fight at the worst possible time, and Roy has already been trying to plan around that possibility.

That being said, I doubt that the contract prohibits them from dropping hints to their allies that there's an elf wizard who "conveniently" doesn't happen to have a soul inside it to stop someone from taking possession of it.

[Somniloquist]

Or from sending in a look-alike substitute to do something Vaarsuvius wouldn't do. I bet that's what the vessel is.

[KorvinStarmast]

V is a vulnerability, and based on conversations with Roy is a Known Vulnerability that needs Mitigation.
You might call this a case of Risk Assessment and mitigation.
How Roy will or will not be able to mitigate that risk (since he knows not what triggers any IFCC decision to pull V off of the chessboard) remains unclear (at least to me).
I will say that the Order growing in size (add two paladins and another cleric) is one way to mitigate the risk of V being pulled out of a fight/situation/encounter with little to no warning.

[The MunchKING]

Or from sending in a look-alike substitute to do something Vaarsuvius wouldn't do. I bet that's what the vessel is.

What if their artifact thing is just a big permanent-type polymorph effect? So Sabine boinks some Evil Wizard, gets him (or Her, Sabine's not picky) to come back, and get zapped by the artifact to make them into a Varsuvius clone, so they can send in the fake to take over when the Real V is out, and have the Fake V do evil or lead the team into a Fail?

[KorvinStarmast]

What if their artifact thing is just a big permanent-type polymorph effect? So Sabine boinks some Evil Wizard, gets him (or Her, Sabine's not picky) to come back, and get zapped by the artifact to make them into a Varsuvius clone, so they can send in the fake to take over when the Real V is out, and have the Fake V do evil or lead the team into a Fail? That is Naleworthy, in terms of its needless complexity. +1 :smallsmile:

[gbaji]

That being said, I doubt that the contract prohibits them from dropping hints to their allies that there's an elf wizard who "conveniently" doesn't happen to have a soul inside it to stop someone from taking possession of it.

I think their contract specifically requires that they protect V's body for the duration they have possession of the soul. That's certainly what they did at the Pyramid. So, no. I don't think they can advertise a "body free for possession".

I do tend to agree that the mere fact of having the contract lingering, means they can more easily track V and act when they wish. Which I do think means they have much greater ability to scry on what the Order is doing as a result. Hard to be sure what their default degree of scrying capability was though, so it's hard to say how much of an advantage that is.

Um... But as to the question being posed, the answer is presumably "yes". By design. If we assume that the IFCC do have a plan to do something which the Order would oppose, then being able to remove V when they want would definitely equate to a weakness.

[Unoriginal]

Hard to be sure what their default degree of scrying capability was though, so it's hard to say how much of an advantage that is.

They were capable of keeping tabs on Xykon & CO despite Cloister being active, without Team Evil being aware of that.

So we know for a fact their default scrying capabilities are beyond that of an Epic Spell ward designed by an expert on the topic of wards. Perhaps the world's greatest expert.



Um... But as to the question being posed, the answer is presumably "yes". By design.

I would go further and say that the answer to the title question is "yes, Varsuuvius is a liability relatively to the Three Fiends, but most likely not in the ways OP questioned in the OP".

[Mic_128]

The one time the IFCC has used their time thus far, the result would have been the same (no Vaarsuvius around protesting the destruction of the Gate) if Vaarsuvius had simply been disintegrated by Xykon in the six hundreds.

Not really at all. If V had managed to warn them, they might not have immediately destroyed the Gate. Team Evil would have arrived and run into Nale & Co as they were leaving the Pyramid. Either they would have thought, with both wanting the Gate, leaving the victor softened up for the Order to go for afterwards (With Nale's side getting his dad and an entire army as backup not long into the fight)

Either the Order would end up being victorious (with the victor of Xykon and Nale/Tarquin then being defeated by a near-full-power Order), or the Order would lose, giving Xykon or Nale/Tarquin the gate (Which admittedly does have the option of Tarquin destroying it, as he said he was considering)

The IFCC yanking V radially changed the result.


Heh. Imagine V getting hold of the shiny black gem Xykon is holding, and splicing those souls for a combined effort against the lich. souls of (spoiler) and (spoiler) anyone? (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?662495-What-s-going-to-happen-to-the-souls-of-(spoiler)-and-(spoiler))


Oh, I freaking love this. And with V's regrets about last time, I could see them using it to instead defend and bolster their team, rather than go on outright offence as they did last time. Zipping around the battlefield, buffing and blocking spells...


That being said, I doubt that the contract prohibits them from dropping hints to their allies that there's an elf wizard who "conveniently" doesn't happen to have a soul inside it to stop someone from taking possession of it.

That doesn't sound like "shielded from all harm" to me, which would violate the contract, as would "putting another soul in your body."

[LadyEowyn]

mic, I think you missed the last clause of that quote:


if Vaarsuvius had simply been disintegrated by Xykon in the six hundreds.

Yes, Vaarsuvius being taken away in that moment greatly changed the outcome relative to if V had been there, but if Vaarsuvius had died fighting Xykon back at the end of Book 4, the Order would still have destroyed the Gate (and no one would have seen or known about the planet in the Rift). So the line from the Fiends in comic 646 - “if the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time” - points to their main intentions for V being something else.

[Mic_128]

mic, I think you missed the last clause of that quote:



Yes, Vaarsuvius being taken away in that moment greatly changed the outcome relative to if V had been there, but if Vaarsuvius had died fighting Xykon back at the end of Book 4, the Order would still have destroyed the Gate (and no one would have seen or known about the planet in the Rift). So the line from the Fiends in comic 646 - “if the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time” - points to their main intentions for V being something else.

Well, that quote was said before Xykon lost his phylactery, which was the real wakeup call that got him moving. If V had died there at that time, it would mean that Xykon could have just as likely sat back down feeling awesome for having defeated the elf.

V dying afterwards, it was one less (and very expensively rented) tool they had in their toolbox to use.

And actually thinking about it, if V did die there and Xykon got going, that would mean the Order wouldn't have V to dispel the remaining illusions at Girard's gate. It also means the Order would have been outnumbered by Nale (with having Z free to attack whoever) and Xykon getting to the gate well before the Order. It also would mean any fight between the Order and Vector Legion would have ended in the Order's defeat too, with Laurin unopposed. (Which we literally saw happening while V was restrained)

[WanderingMist]

Yes and no.

Yes, because V can be taken at any time, no because Roy is well-aware of that limitation and is certainly doing his best to minimize the impact of that eventual disappearance.

[gbaji]

They were capable of keeping tabs on Xykon & CO despite Cloister being active, without Team Evil being aware of that.

I don't doubt that they may have access to epic level scrying (Eugene and Roy did when Roy was dead), but I'll also point out that they were scrying on V, and not on Team Evil directly.

So that entire scene can't be taken as evidence that they do have the ability to scry on TE anytime they want, even (especially?) within a cloister effect, since they were actually scrying on V and not TE. It certainly can't be used as evidence in opposition to the notion that the deal allows them greater ability to track and scry on V than they would have otherwise (which is what I have proposed). Which is relevant when considering whether the very fact that they have that deal in place with V might mean that they can scry into the Final Dungeon itself (which is also what I was talking about).


So we know for a fact their default scrying capabilities are beyond that of an Epic Spell ward designed by an expert on the topic of wards. Perhaps the world's greatest expert.

Sure. But scrying in D&D typically is on a "creature", not on a "place". The default game rules don't specify restrictions in terms of how well shielded a location is versus how powerful the spell is (though it's implied via other magic). But, we can assume that a "well shielded location" can only be scried upon if one both has a powerful enough scrying magic *and* a person they know well and/or have some connection to (or body/soul part of maybe) is present in that location. So the deal with V would allow them to scry into the Final Dungeon (or say the cloister effect), because of their strong connection to V. It's possible that they don't have a sufficiently strong connection to any member of Team Evil to have done the same (either scry into the cloister area *or* into the Final Dungeon).

They might very well literally have no way to target something (like a gate spell maybe) into the Final Dungeon without first having "a creature" that they have a sufficiently strong connection to already located within said Final Dungeon. So the deal with V serves not just the function of being able to manipulate events to ensure some sort of Final Conflict occurs at the Final Gate in the Final Dungeon (that's a lot of capitalization!), but also allows them to actually scry the area while that conflict occurs so that they may intervene in a way they might not have been able to otherwise.

Remember. It's not just whether you have the power to overcome some magic defensese. You also have to have some means to target it in the first place. So until V steps into the Final Dungeon, they have no idea where to look. Once V does go in there, they can see everything inside, and know where it physically is, and can presumably do other things as a result. Also, the connection formed by the deal may act as some sort of power channel, allowing them to target an area they might otherwise not be able to penetrate either. Same idea applies. Maybe the area is sealed off to gate magic normallly, but because they have already slipped someone inside with an active "link" to them, which already allows them to swap something in/out (V's soul), they can piggyback on that same connetion to project other spells into the same location where V's body is. That's a bit more speculative, but IMO fits and makes sense.



And actually thinking about it, if V did die there and Xykon got going, that would mean the Order wouldn't have V to dispel the remaining illusions at Girard's gate. It also means the Order would have been outnumbered by Nale (with having Z free to attack whoever) and Xykon getting to the gate well before the Order. It also would mean any fight between the Order and Vector Legion would have ended in the Order's defeat too, with Laurin unopposed. (Which we literally saw happening while V was restrained)

Sure. More significantly, the IFCC would not have had any ability to manipulate things. We can certainly say how things could have gone based on what we know did happen, but the IFCC could not have assumed that any of those things went the way they wanted. There's a host of variables in terms of what different groups would have done differently if V had died in the attack on Xykon. Would the Order have done things the same? How would a number of events along the way have played out differently? Might they not have even discovered the location of the pyramid? Let's not forget that it was V who noticed the "us" comment in the recorded message at the false location, which lead them to arrive at Bleedingham in the first place, on the assumption that someone just won a large bet and would be showing up at a large city to spend the money. It's also hard to say how much more time TE spent in Gobotopia as a result of that attack versus if V had died. The attack itself spurred Xykon to get moving on the next gate, despite Redcloak wanting more information about the rifts himself. But it's quite possible to argue that had V died in the atttack and Xykon *not* lost his philactery in the combat, then TE would have teleported to Girard's pyramid much much sooner than they did in the story, meaning they likely would have taken possession of it long before the Order had a chance to get anywhere near it.

The variations created if V was killed there to the story are far far greater than just what happened at the pyramid, in terms of direct conflict between the Order and the LG and TE. I'm just not sure how much value there is in examining this. It would certainly be "different", but not just in any single way. I do suspect that the IFCC were correct in their assessment that if V had died during that fight, then everything they had done would have been made worthless. It's clear they went to quite a bit of effort to get V to take that deal. We kinda do have to assume they have plans for it beyond just being able to yank V out of the game when they want (though that's certainly enough power for them to influence things).

[Mic_128]

I don't doubt that they may have access to epic level scrying (Eugene and Roy did when Roy was dead), but I'll also point out that they were scrying on V, and not on Team Evil directly.



That time, yeah. But they also knew about Xykon, him going after the gates and their lack of doing anything after Azure City fell. Sabine told the IFCC about him and the gates, so it seems fairly likely they were able to scry on the lich.

[gbaji]

That time, yeah. But they also knew about Xykon, him going after the gates and their lack of doing anything after Azure City fell. Sabine told the IFCC about him and the gates, so it seems fairly likely they were able to scry on the lich.

Sure. I was just being a bit pedantic there, since it was technically V they were scrying on during that fight. We can certainly debate how well they can scry different people, based on different amounts of knowledge and whatnot about those people, and how that may correlate to different types of defenses against scrying if we want (and how powerful their own scrying is). But that's not really the thrust of what I'm talking about.

As I mentioned above, I suspect it's far more about granting them a "backdoor" to project power directly into the area where V's body is at the time they pull V's soul out. I kinda see this as a case where once you have a connection that allows for magic to be used in that spot (for purpose of pulling V's soul and protecting V's body for said duration), that same connection could be used for other purposes as well. So even if they could scry on Xykon, or Roy, or anyone else who happened to be in the Final Dungeon at any given moment, they very likely could not actually use any magic directly against them or through them. They've already stated that they can only operate directly when making deals (and that's super rare as well), and normally have to work through agents like Qarr and Sabine. And the nature of the stone the Final Dungeon is encased in may normally block interdimensional magic (like gate). But... if they've already got some connection that allows them to pull V's soul out of there (and project some sort of magic shield around V), then that same connection maybe can be used to send someone (or a group of someone's) to the same location?

Just speculation here, but to me this makes the most sense in terms of how the IFCC might put someone into the fray (or even possibly themselves if they're really willing to act that directly). Even knowing exactly where TE and the Order are, and being able to scry and see exactly what's required to get to the Final Dungeon, it would still be nearly impossible for any of their operatives to actually get there in time to do anything (if they could do so at all). TE is already using a very powerful being of Law to get through the dungeons in record time, it seems unlikely that anyone could get through any faster, and baring being able to gate or teleport in, there's no other way to get there. Since TE isn't actually killing the monsters, there's a pretty massive block to anyone else arriving in the Final Dungeon during the same time period as TE and the Order will presuambly get into their conflict.

Which is why I put that speculation out there. If we assume the IFCC is going to intervene at some point at the actual Gate itself, they kinda have to have a way to physically get there. I suppose it's also perfectly possible to just assume that the directors have the epic power to just gate themselves or their operatives directly there right through the magic stone if they wish. That falls into the "I don't know" category. But... everything else being the same, why not assume that their previously established connection to V somehow makes this more possible, or easy, or less detectable, or whatever. Heck. Even if it's not, I could totally see them gloating that it did make everything possible for them, just to make V feel that much worse. Cause... you know... Evil.

[Tubercular Ox]

TE is already using a very powerful being of Law to get through the dungeons in record time, it seems unlikely that anyone could get through any faster, and baring being able to gate or teleport in, there's no other way to get there.

I feel compelled to point out that you should be able to get into the dungeon through the Gate. It seems less likely than just having some deus ex-y way to come in the front door, but for completeness' sake.

[gbaji]

I feel compelled to point out that you should be able to get into the dungeon through the Gate. It seems less likely than just having some deus ex-y way to come in the front door, but for completeness' sake.

I'm talking about some form of gate/planar-travel to do this. I'm also assuming that the stone in and around the Hollow prohibits this normally. Doesn't seem that crazy to assume that you could artifice up some stonework/magic/something to do the equivalent of a 6th level forbiddance spell, as a kind of obvious defense against folks just bypasisng your security. We've already been shown that some of the stone blocks teleportation spells (as well as ethereal travel), while others allow it, meaning that you can teleport from specific locations within the hollow to other locations (if you know where the "open" areas are). It's not unreasonable to assume that the same stone also blocks planar gates from working.

BTW, this was also brought up in a previous thread discussing the possibility of Xykon using gate to retreat to his astral fortress, and then having the Order chase him and have some dramatic fight there. I believe the consensus was that we just don't know if gate is possible in or out of the hollow much less the Final Dungeon. It might also be, just as with some levels of scrying being blocked in some areas, but sufficiently powerful versions working (and yeah, that's already outside the "normal" rules anyway), that the same could be in effect for planar travel in/out of the Hollow as well. We just don't know.

But I do think it's worthwhile to consider it as a possibility when asking what benefit they may gain from having a pre-existing contract allowing them direct magical access to V, and what effects that may have in terms of V being inside the Final Dungeon. It may have no bearing at all on anything. But I do think that, narratively, there's some value in having part of the effect of that agreement be to give the IFCC the ability to do something in the Final Dungeon that they would not have been able to do otherwise.

If we just assume that they can scry on anyone, anywhere (cause they've got Epic Inside!), and they can freely gate into where they can see via scrying, then they could literally always have the ability to scry on any member of TE or the Order, watch them in the Final Dungeon, and gate in whenever they want. More importantly, if they always had this ability, then so does every other interested party on any other plane as well. Which might just get a bit muddled in terms of whatever final conflict is planned in the story. If, however, the only outer planes beings who can do this, are those who had the forethought to send in the equivalent of a Star Trek Transporter Pattern Enhancer, then it will allow the author to explain why they can interfere, but no one else can. Which allows Rich to narratively explain why they can actually do whatever it is they are doing, without anyone else actively intervening (at least not in time maybe).

[Tubercular Ox]

What do you think of Kraagor's Gate? Dorukan's Gate let Xykon push goblins through it. We don't know what Girard's Gate would've allowed, given that he encased it in lead/stone/whatever. Lirian's and Soon's seemed to be unusable as Gates.

One strip ago I was briefly excited that Rich might be stepping up the what's-in-the-gate storyline by having something invade from the other end. Obviously that was never likely but the idea is rattling around in my head now. It's highly unlikely for the IFCC since they would have to go in from one of the rifts and make it to Kraagor's Gate before coming out again. It's trivial for anything that lives (or "lives") on the other side because the plot can just place them there.

I'm not predicting anything, just trying to be complete.

[gbaji]

What do you think of Kraagor's Gate? Dorukan's Gate let Xykon push goblins through it. We don't know what Girard's Gate would've allowed, given that he encased it in lead/stone/whatever. Lirian's and Soon's seemed to be unusable as Gates.

I don't believe that the goblins ever actually passed through the gate itself. There was a sigil on the gate that prevented it from being accessed/opened. That's what Xykon was tossing goblins into, and which was zapping them. That was not a function of the gate itself, but a defensive enchantment that Durokon put on it to protect it from other people using the gate itself.


One strip ago I was briefly excited that Rich might be stepping up the what's-in-the-gate storyline by having something invade from the other end. Obviously that was never likely but the idea is rattling around in my head now. It's highly unlikely for the IFCC since they would have to go in from one of the rifts and make it to Kraagor's Gate before coming out again. It's trivial for anything that lives (or "lives") on the other side because the plot can just place them there.

Woah. Wait. Where you actually talking about them using "the gate" (as in Kraagar's gate) to enter? I was talking about "Gate", as in the actual spell, which allows people to open a portal from one plane within the known set of planes to another.

"The Gate" (as in Kraagar's gate) does not go to other planes within the known set of planes. It closes a seal on a rift that opens into an entirely different universe/world/whatever, where the Snarl is. The IFCC almost certainly have zero ability to travel into and then out of the rifts, much less use them to travel from one location to another within the normal stickverse world. If they could do that already, then that kinda steps on the entire point of the story. No one, not even the gods, know exactly what is on the other side of those rifts. They only know that the snarl is trapped within the world they created, and the rifts are tears in the world they created that allow the snarl to reach out into their world.

If the IFCC had the ability to safely enter one rift and then exit another, why on earth would they do this just to get to another location in the same plane that they can already access anyway? The entire point of thie exercise is that you have to get to the gate to access whatever is on the other side. Also, that the gates themselves "hold" the rifts within them dimensionally, so that having one intact allows you to control the location of the rift (or at least that's what The Dark One is trying to do). It's why every single gate that has been destroyed has been abandoned. Rifts without a gate around them, are just tears in the world, and aren't useful for anything other than getting "unmade" if you stand too close and the snarl gets you.

There's no reason to get to the Final Dungeon except to gain access to Kraagar's Gate. The Final Dungeon protects access to the Gate. Going the other direction makes no sense.

[Mic_128]

But I do think that, narratively, there's some value in having part of the effect of that agreement be to give the IFCC the ability to do something in the Final Dungeon that they would not have been able to do otherwise.

Yes, and that's yanking V out of the fight. They made it pretty clear cut that was all the contract was. "You use our souls, we have yours for the same length of time."



Which is why I put that speculation out there. If we assume the IFCC is going to intervene at some point at the actual Gate itself, they kinda have to have a way to physically get there.

The IFCC are unable to directly act on the mortal plane, with the exception of making deals.

[gbaji]

Yes, and that's yanking V out of the fight. They made it pretty clear cut that was all the contract was. "You use our souls, we have yours for the same length of time."

The irony is that you are listing a power they have over V, which they never told V about while negotiating the deal, to argue that they can't possibly use some other power they have over V in the future, on the basis that they didn't tell V about it while negotiating the deal. And... shockingly, despite V not knowing that detail, nor them specifically stating it, they were not prevented from doing so anyway.

So why do you assume there are no other little details they just didn't tell V about? They are only bound by what they actually promised. Nothing else.


The IFCC are unable to directly act on the mortal plane, with the exception of making deals.

Yes. I"m well aware of that, and already examined that aspect of the issue:


They've already stated that they can only operate directly when making deals (and that's super rare as well), and normally have to work through agents like Qarr and Sabine. And the nature of the stone the Final Dungeon is encased in may normally block interdimensional magic (like gate). But... if they've already got some connection that allows them to pull V's soul out of there (and project some sort of magic shield around V), then that same connection maybe can be used to send someone (or a group of someone's) to the same location?

Just speculation here, but to me this makes the most sense in terms of how the IFCC might put someone into the fray (or even possibly themselves if they're really willing to act that directly).

I already covered the bases here. Obviously, if said link allows them to do sometihng like gate into a location that would otherwise be blocked from planar travel, then they could use that to send operatives to the Final Dungeon. But we also don't know if they are actually physically restricted from appearing on the prime material plane except when making deals, or just that those are "the rules", and there are penalties for breaking them (my guess is the later though). But if they're pulling off a big enough power grab, they may not care about "the rules" and be willing to break them anyway.

[Mic_128]

The irony is that you are listing a power they have over V, which they never told V about while negotiating the deal, to argue that they can't possibly use some other power they have over V in the future, on the basis that they didn't tell V about it while negotiating the deal. And... shockingly, despite V not knowing that detail, nor them specifically stating it, they were not prevented from doing so anyway.

So why do you assume there are no other little details they just didn't tell V about? They are only bound by what they actually promised. Nothing else.

Because there's a big difference between the specifics of something they agreed to (*when* they get their soul) versus additional, secret abilities (Using V as an anchor to summon hordes of fiends) You said it yourself: They are only bound by what they actually promised. Nothing else.

[Precure]

If it's not part of their deal...

What stops them from using V's unclaimed body?

[Unoriginal]

What do you think of Kraagor's Gate? Dorukan's Gate let Xykon push goblins through it. We don't know what Girard's Gate would've allowed, given that he encased it in lead/stone/whatever. Lirian's and Soon's seemed to be unusable as Gates.

Xykon never actually got access to Dorukan's Gate itself, he was stuck on the outer layer of protective seals.

Otherwise he'd have never let the Order live. Since the reason he did was because a good-aligned individual was needed to get to the Gate.

[Tubercular Ox]

Xykon never actually got access to Dorukan's Gate itself, he was stuck on the outer layer of protective seals.

Otherwise he'd have never let the Order live. Since the reason he did was because a good-aligned individual was needed to get to the Gate.

This (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html) is a confusing comic. The bonus strips in the book are even more confusing because Xykon mentions adding wooden doors to keep zombies from wandering in by accident.

I think the rune zaps people who cross the threshold. That's most consistent with all the language.

[Precure]

I think he was throwing them over the door, like what Roy done to him in here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html).

[Tubercular Ox]

I think he was throwing them over the door, like what Roy done to him in here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html).

In the bonus strips Xykon tells Jeff, "Feel free to open those up and take a look inside there."

[Precure]

Who's Jeff?

[gbaji]

Because there's a big difference between the specifics of something they agreed to (*when* they get their soul) versus additional, secret abilities (Using V as an anchor to summon hordes of fiends) You said it yourself: They are only bound by what they actually promised. Nothing else.

They are limited in terms of what they can do to V, by their promises. They are not limited at all in terms of other things they may be able to do, or *how* they do what they do, however. V may make assumptions about when/how they use their powers related to the deal (like already happened with the whole "they can take your soul while you are alive" bit), but those aassumptions need not be true.

I think maybe the difference here is that I have actually developed game rules for magic systems before, so I tend to think not just in terms of what something does, but how it does it within the context of the magic "rules" of the setting itself. And when we ask that question (ie: How do they actually do what they are doing), we have to conclude that a lot more power/access is present than might be thought at first. Sure. Pull V's soul to their plane. Great. But what about the body? They specifically stated that it would be "shielded from all harm for the duration of your stay" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html).

Great! How exactly do they do that? Do they project some kind of invincible force field aroud V's body? How does that work, and what actual spells/magic are they using to do this (from another plane no less)? There has to be more than that though, since the one time we've seen this used, V was standing in an underground tunnel, maybe 20 feet from the source of a massive explosion that destroyed the pyramid. Yet, not only was V's body completely unharmed, but when V work up, V was just buried under a little sand on the surface of the desert (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0919.html). If all they did was protect the body, then V should have returned to find themselves in a collapsed tunnel, located under the rubble from the explosion (the tunnel was *under* the room with the gate, right?).

Which means that they didn't only protect V's body, they also moved it to a safe location after the duration. So more than just "take your soul" is involved here. And that's before we even consider *how* the are providing that protection. There aren't a whole lot of spells in D&D that make someone actualy immune to all forms of harm (and none of them are perfect, and protect from everything that could possibly happen). If I were constructing this (again, putting on my GM hat here), I wouldn't even bother trying. I'd just gate V's body from the location it's in, while pulling V's soul to a different location. I'd store the body (maybe in some kiind of stasis magic) in a prepared secured location on my home plane. I'd leave some sort of magical marker/locater where the body was, and then when the duration ends, return the body to the nearest "safe location" to the marker, drop the stasis/whatever, and shove the soul back in.

That allows us to do everything shown in the strip without getting into crazy levels of custom magic (and frankly, with a lot less magical "footprint" in the area itself, which might be signifcant given their supposed limits on doing things on the mortal plane). More importantly, this method works for every case we might consider. Certainly every case where some sort of direct protective spell (again, projected across planes, which is "tricky" to say the least) could work, this works "better" and is a heck of a lot cheaper/easier as well.

At the very least, regardless of how they do it, we do know that the deal allows them to move V's body (to keep it safe, right?). That right there, means they must have the power to do that. And if they have that power in the location V is, then they can do other things as well. Again, I'm thinking in terms of where they can target magic, and what magic they can use in the targeted location. And sure, we can assume that they just already have epic srying and epic magic, so they could do this already. But, as I pointed out above, if they can project magic to any location on the PMP they want (including the Final Dungeon, as long as they just know the name of at least one person there), then so can literally every other being of a similar power level, which presumably means they can't get away with what they have planned. I'm just assuming that, whatever their plans are, they will need to be able to put themselves into a position to do it, where other beings of similar power/level (who would be opposed to them) can't do anything to stop them.

And to do that, you need two things:

1. A location where beings of that power can't normally just intervene directly if they want.
2. Some special "thing" that allows you to do so anyway.

So yeah. Speculating about how their deal wiith V might give that to them, does seem worthwhile.


This (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html) is a confusing comic. The bonus strips in the book are even more confusing because Xykon mentions adding wooden doors to keep zombies from wandering in by accident.

That link also says that they are trying to "unseal" the gate. Yeah. It is a bit of a strange wording, since Redcloak says that Xykon is "sending goblins through the gate", and they are getting zapped. There is plenty of context in the strip though to conclude that they aren't actually going through the gate itself, but rather being zapped by a sigil that is protecting the gate, and preventing it from being "unsealed" in the first place.


I think the rune zaps people who cross the threshold. That's most consistent with all the language.

The threshold of the protective sigil, not the threshold of the gate itself. The gate is "sealed". It's not open. And certainly, no one is actually going through the rift that the gate hold sealed either. Rich has used inconsitent language on this over time. But the idea is that the gate holds the "seal" on the rift closed.

Basically, anyone who touched that gate got zapped by a defensive enchantment placed on it by Durokon. Getting zapped is not a function of traveling through a gate. It's a function of the defensive magic placed on that one particular gate, by the epic wizard who was protecting it. None of the other gates have sigils on them, and none of them zap people when touched.

It's actually completely unknown what might happen if someone tried to go through a gate. What is known is that the entire universe on the other side of the rifts is made up of the snarl, which literaly unmakes anything it attacks. Um... Except blackwing also saw a planet on the other side of a rift, and the entire group could see water on the other side of another. So... No one really knows for sure.

[Tubercular Ox]

Who's Jeff?

The Chief Gate Inspector for the two strips it takes before he gets fried by the rune.

[Unoriginal]

This (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html) is a confusing comic. The bonus strips in the book are even more confusing because Xykon mentions adding wooden doors to keep zombies from wandering in by accident.

I don't see what is confusing.

The Order of the Scribble's Gates aren't actual gates, they're crystal/gem-like structures sealing a rift in reality.


The wooden doors Xykon put to avoid minions touching Dorukan's Gate (unless he wants them to do it) are clearly visible in the comic you posted.

[KorvinStarmast]

I feel compelled to point out that you should be able to get into the dungeon through the Gate. It seems less likely than just having some deus ex-y way to come in the front door, but for completeness' sake. Just a quick note: on the other side of the Gate is the Snarl. Good luck getting through the God Killing abomination as a means to come through the gate from the other side.
(Caveat: unless you are in the other world within the gate ...)

Xykon never actually got access to Dorukan's Gate itself, he was stuck on the outer layer of protective seals...a good-aligned individual was needed to get to the Gate. What gate? :mitd: I suspect that MitD perceives the "gates" as actual barriers or obstructions.

The Order of the Scribble's Gates aren't actual gates, they're crystal/gem-like structures sealing a rift in reality. A gate is typically an entryway or an exit. (Garden gate, for example).
If the "Gates" are meant to stop movement through that spot, then the MitD's question makes a lot of sense.

[Tzardok]

If the "Gates" are meant to stop movement through that spot, then the MitD's question makes a lot of sense.

I mean, gates are there to be closed. :smalltongue:

IIRC, the Giant said that the gems aren't the Gates themselves, more like locks or keystones that keep the gate where it should be (in front of the hole in reality).

[Tubercular Ox]

(Caveat: unless you are in the other world within the gate ...)

I mean, I know it's silly, but I keep thinking that if whatever was over there just came here, we could have the entire what's-behind-the-rift story without ever leaving the Final Dungeon. It's lazy of me. We should all just accept that we're going to explore a completely new location either just before, just after, or during the final confrontation. But it's the mood I'm put in when I find out the very secure dungeon has a backdoor that no one cares about because it's impossible to exploit.

And what about those Threads of Creation? What do those look like when you get closer in?

[Kardwill]

Just a quick note: on the other side of the Gate is the Snarl. Good luck getting through the God Killing abomination as a means to come through the gate from the other side.
(Caveat: unless you are in the other world within the gate ...)
What gate? :mitd: I suspect that MitD perceives the "gates" as actual barriers or obstructions.
A gate is typically an entryway or an exit. (Garden gate, for example).
If the "Gates" are meant to stop movement through that spot, then the MitD's question makes a lot of sense.

Well, Dorukan's Not-Gate-Cristal-Structure was specifically shaped as an obvious gate/portal/doorway (unlike Soon's, for example, shaped like a common gemstone around which the throne was constructed).

But Dorukan Dungeon's appearance in the comic predates most of the exposition stuff. It's possible that, at the time, Rich's idea about the Gate was a far more litteral "Gateway to somewhere bad" than the "barriers blocking the actual doorway of a dimension" they are now. That kind of stealth retcon, where you decide on the actual storyline after everything has already been named and introduced, happens all the time in the early phase of a campaign, after all ^^

[KorvinStarmast]

But Dorukan Dungeon's appearance in the comic predates most of the exposition stuff. It's possible that, at the time, Rich's idea about the Gate was a far more litteral "Gateway to somewhere bad" than the "barriers blocking the actual doorway of a dimension" they are now. That kind of stealth retcon, where you decide on the actual storyline after everything has already been named and introduced, happens all the time in the early phase of a campaign, after all ^^ Fair point. And the MitD's perceptions (as regards the What Gate? running gag) will likely be a part of the final reveal.

[Tubercular Ox]

But Dorukan Dungeon's appearance in the comic predates most of the exposition stuff. It's possible that, at the time, Rich's idea about the Gate was a far more litteral "Gateway to somewhere bad" than the "barriers blocking the actual doorway of a dimension" they are now. That kind of stealth retcon, where you decide on the actual storyline after everything has already been named and introduced, happens all the time in the early phase of a campaign, after all ^^

I agree 100%. The bonus strips in DCF were written after Xykon's survival was published online, so they were a golden opportunity to retcon things.

Retconning the wooden doors on the gate to be something Xykon added pushes it closer to being like the other gates, but all the talk of Jeff opening the wooden doors, looking inside, seeing something through the gate, moving towards it, the rune starting to glow, and then Xykon ordering him to, "keep walking forward," still confuses me.

There were only 3 months between strip #121 and DCF, maybe Rich wasn't done and there was additional con to ret after that.


Fair point. And the MitD's perceptions (as regards the What Gate? running gag) will likely be a part of the final reveal.

Since I have a prediction in on this, do I repeat my assertions for posterity or just let it go?

[gbaji]

Retconning the wooden doors on the gate to be something Xykon added pushes it closer to being like the other gates, but all the talk of Jeff opening the wooden doors, looking inside, seeing something through the gate, moving towards it, the rune starting to glow, and then Xykon ordering him to, "keep walking forward," still confuses me.

First off, that's not a retcon about the wooden doors, since the strip never says anything about what the wooden doors are for, or who put them there.

That's more properly just called an "explanation".

Additionally, I'm not sure why this is confusing. The rune at the top is the sigil that Durokon placed on the gate. It zaps anyone who touches the gate itself. Xykon is trying to figure out how to disable the sigil, and is "experiementing" by having goblins "walk forward" into the gate, knowing they'll hit the defensive barrier the sigil has placed around the gate, and hoping to learn something about how it operates by seeing it in action. This is literally explained (fairly completely) in this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) (and the previous one).


It's entirely possible that in the early strips (certainly strips 96 and 97), Rich hadn't yet decided what the gate was, or what it did, so some of the wording is a bit awkward (sending the goblins "though the gate" for example). But it's all been well and truely explained, at length, since then. At no point did any goblin actually go "through the gate". They impacted on the sigil's defenses and got zapped. Which is also what happened to Zykon in these (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) strips (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html). Note, that he impacts something, the rune on top glows, and he gets zapped and blown apart.

That is Durokon's sigil. It it not a function of the gate itself. They never penetrated the sigil to gain access to the actual gate at any point in the story. We actually have not yet seen any of the gates "opened", much less anyone going "thorugh a gate" in this story.

[Precure]

I think Dorukan's gate is a gate in a very literal sense, as you can see snarl's color scheme behind the doors.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think Dorukan's gate is a gate in a very literal sense, as you can see snarl's color scheme behind the doors. That got me opening up DCF and checking the bonus strips. And here it is, almost an hour later, as I read the commentaries ... and ... OK. But thanks.

[Schadrach]

The IFCC won't possess V's body. Don't forget that one of them is Lawful Evil, and the whole arrangement with the Soul Splice was part of a contract. For all their wickedness and trickery, Lawful Evil outsiders do not break contracts that they've made. The biggest danger that the IFCC poses to the Order of the Stick right now is their ability to yoink V out of the fight at the worst possible time, and Roy has already been trying to plan around that possibility.

That being said, I doubt that the contract prohibits them from dropping hints to their allies that there's an elf wizard who "conveniently" doesn't happen to have a soul inside it to stop someone from taking possession of it.

That depends on whether or not possession counts as "harm". This is why you always make fiends define their terms. If possession until V's soul is returned is not "harm" in and of itself, then you have a heavily protected body to act as a vessel for whatever happens to be around and in need of a body for several minutes.


That's an interesting thought. Most uses for souls in D&D related settings are permanent, so temporary custody would usually score a fiend nothing at all. But if they can hawk out V's casting ability for one battle, that would be quite significant if they had the right buyer.

Say for example, splicing V to Redcloak so that he could do the ritual himself should Xykon be removed from the picture (presuming the ritual happening is convenient for the IFCC's purposes - moving the gate to one of the lower planes might make it easier to make use of their artifact?)


Still, I'm inclined to think the caster needs to ultimately agree to being part of the splice to be used that way. More likely the council's only play is to remand V's soul to their custody, possibly show or say something to prod V in a given direction. Taking a party's high level wizard off the board with no warning is a heck of a power play as is.

I don't know why - they basically hold ownership over her soul each for a fixed period of time - there's nothing to say they can't put it to use as they please during that time so long as it gets returned to it's proper spot in roughly it's original condition when time is up. Just holding her and making her watch might even be a ploy - it's all they did the first time because it's all they had to do and it sets up the expectation that that's what will happen the other two times (thus setting an expectation for the potential damage caused by the others), despite that not being spelled out in the terms. Again, always make your fiends define all their terms.

[KorvinStarmast]

Say for example, splicing V to Redcloak so that he could do the ritual himself should Xykon be removed from the picture (presuming the ritual happening is convenient for the IFCC's purposes - moving the gate to one of the lower planes might make it easier to make use of their artifact?) An intriguing possible future state.
there's nothing to say they can't put it to use as they please during that time so long as it gets returned to it's proper spot in roughly it's original condition when time is up.
"Just want to borrow the lawnmower..."

Again, always make your fiends define all their terms. Good advice for deal making in general.

[Tzardok]

Reminds me of the thought experiment "What if a fey made a deal with a devil? Discuss."

[KorvinStarmast]

Reminds me of the thought experiment "What if a fey made a deal with a devil? Discuss."
You would end up with Hell's {tinker}bells" which is not a song by AC DC. :smallcool:

[Peelee]

You would end up with Hell's {tinker}bells" which is not a song by AC DC. :smallcool:

Armor Class and Difficulty Class made songs?!?

[Tzardok]

Armor Class and Difficulty Class made songs?!?

Yup. AC's most famous song is "Can't touch this". :smalltongue:

[faustin]

Reminds me of the thought experiment "What if a fey made a deal with a devil? Discuss."

In Dresden Files the Fey (Sidhe) are the actual masters of dealmaking, to the point Queen Mab created the Unseelie Accords as a way to keep the different supernatural factions under check. Even demons are wary of breaking them (albeit loopholes are acceptable).

Harry Dresden: "There is no spirit of the Law, only the Letter and it's ironclad".

[KorvinStarmast]

Yup. AC's most famous song is "Can't touch this". :smalltongue: For some reason, I thought that was MC's song. :smallcool:

[Peelee]

Yup. AC's most famous song is "Can't touch this". :smalltongue:

Pft. AC hates hammer time.

[Tarkin]

I'm also quite curious about the Greyview Appreciation Society. It sounds fascinating!

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm also quite curious about the Greyview Appreciation Society. It sounds fascinating!

Iin our meetings, we always get treats.