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metalbear
2007-12-12, 05:14 PM
I am starting a new campaign in a few days, and I was thinking on playing a knight. I was wondering if there are any suggestions on what race, feats, skills, equipment, and tactics I should use. Right now I am thinking on either playing as a Goliath or a Gnome, but that is not very concrete right now.

Hawriel
2007-12-12, 05:28 PM
human paladin, fighter, Cavalier prc. Use the mounted combat feats and two handed for a great sword or sword and shield. skip the mounted archery feat because its unchivalrist. Fallow a generic chivalratic code. your done. Oh and max out the Ride skill and ask your DM to make know nobility and royalty a class skill if it isnt already. your now a knight.


edit forgot the K :smallredface:
Your alinment should be lawful

Sleet
2007-12-12, 05:34 PM
Fallow a generic chivalratic code.

Really, to be a feudal knight, you don't even need that. Swear fealty to some lord, promise to serve him under arms as a knight, and have him promise to support you materially while you do. There - done. :smallwink: You don't even need to be all that lawful.

If you mean the knight class, I've not experimented with it as much. I'd suspect you want the standard power-attack tree that any heavy fighter will want.

Xefas
2007-12-12, 05:47 PM
The best way to do the fluff of a knight while still maintaining mechanical viability is to take Warblade or Crusader and nix their fluff.

The best way to build a knight using the knight class, is to not use the knight class, and instead use Warblade or Crusader and nix their fluff.

If you want prestige classes to properly compliment your knightliness, simply take more levels of Warblade or Crusader, and pretend you're taking a prestige class with whatever fluff you'd like.

Prophaniti
2007-12-12, 06:12 PM
I play a knight (the PHBII class) in my current campaign... it can be interesting, espesially if your DM is willing to involve your sworn lord in the story in some fashion. If you're going for a 'historically acurate' knight, that can be pretty challenging... neither knights or fighters have enough skill points for all the flavor skills you should have (knights were trained in a lot more than arms), and the knight class' code rule, while close to the knightly ideal, was rarely actually practiced.

But, if you're just asking for some mechanics advice... the Mounted Combat feat tree is a good choice, since you start it for free, but if you're in a campaign where you don't get to bring your horse much, like the one I'm in... I took the Agile Shield Fighter feat, also Iron Will and one other, because I wanted a specific feat from PHBII (I can't remember the name but it let you roll 2d20 and take the highest on will saves and you no longer auto-fail fort saves on a roll of 1)

So, I was just a front-line hacker who was very difficult to kill (d12 hd!)and very difficult to get around (knight class features). In that spirit, I'd recommend Imp Disarm, Trip, Sunder, that kind of thing. (On a side note, when an opponent picks up a dropped weapon, that provokes an AoO. Is he still considered Unarmed if I take the AoO?)

Equipment will be very similar to a Fighter, you need good weapons and good armor. There's nothing really specific to a knight out there as far as equipment goes.

EDIT: Xefas, you like Warblade and Crusader WAAAY too much... maybe you three should get a room:smallamused: JK. Seriously, though, ToB is not the answer to every melee build question. I've used it, I liked it, but I've ran plenty of campaigns with effective melee'rs that weren't Warblades or Crusaders (I actually like the Swordsage most, both fluff and mechanics, the Warblade needs a good beating with the nerf stick.)

tyckspoon
2007-12-12, 06:18 PM
So, I was just a front-line hacker who was very difficult to kill (d12 hd!)and very difficult to get around (knight class features). In that spirit, I'd recommend Imp Disarm, Trip, Sunder, that kind of thing. (On a side note, when an opponent picks up a dropped weapon, that provokes an AoO. Is he still considered Unarmed if I take the AoO?)


Yes, he's still unarmed. AoOs happen like readied actions- for the most part, before the action that triggered them is completed. You can't use the AoO to permanently disarm somebody, and you can't use the AoO for standing from prone to trip somebody again.

Xefas
2007-12-12, 06:40 PM
EDIT: Xefas, you like Warblade and Crusader WAAAY too much... maybe you three should get a room:smallamused: JK. Seriously, though, ToB is not the answer to every melee build question. I've used it, I liked it, but I've ran plenty of campaigns with effective melee'rs that weren't Warblades or Crusaders (I actually like the Swordsage most, both fluff and mechanics, the Warblade needs a good beating with the nerf stick.)

The fact that they're effective melee combatants is only 30% of the reason why they're so good. The other 70% is that they're fun to use. Other melee classes are fine in this regard for a 1-shot, but a campaign? You'll get tired of "I take a move action and attack" "I take another move action and attack again" "I take another move action and attack again" real quick.

Yes, Knights do have a few other things to do, and that makes them better than the core melee classes. However, the Tome of Battle classes have more options. They put you on par with most spellcasters not only in mechanical usefulness, but on versatility and awesome as well. They're flying and molesting enemies with tentacles and firing ancient egyptian laser beams at people, but you're charging across the battlefield, breaking rib-cages, tackling the torso off of people, initiating group tactics with your party, and simultaneously buffing your teammates.

It's just cool, and other than the Swordsage, their fluff is interchangeable with anything. Desert Wind and Shadow Hand are a little supernatural, so they don't fit in everywhere, unless you apply some kind of Rurouni Kenshin/CSI pseudo-science to it.

Prophaniti
2007-12-12, 06:40 PM
@tyckspoon: Well, I know that. You cant keep someone permanently disarmed/tripped because it states that an AoO must be a normal attack and can't use any special attacks like grapples. The point of my question is that a Knight violates his code if he attacks an unarmed opponent, and I'm wondering if I could still take the AoO, saying I wait until right when he touches the weapon thus keeping the letter of my oath:smallamused:. I suppose it would be my DM's call, but I'm wondering what anyone else thinks.

Suddenly a voice thunders, "STOP TRYING TO DERAIL THE THREAD, SCUM." I cringe in fear.
"Yes, master, forgive your servant's ingnorance." I reply, and fade quickly into the shadows.

tyckspoon
2007-12-12, 06:57 PM
Ah.. ok, that makes sense. I would probably say that if it's dishonorable to attack an unarmed opponent, it's also dishonorable to force your opponent to become disarmed, so the Knight would not be the immediate cause of the situation. I recall people saying that the Knight's Code is really poorly written (like, worse than the Paladin's Code).. does it make an exception for non-lethal damage? Taking the AoO to strike for nonlethal damage seems like a reasonably honorable alternative to whacking an unarmed opponent's head off with your greatsword.

To Original Poster: If you have access to Tome of Battle, Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit stuff complements the Knight very well. I won't go so far as to suggest you replace Knight levels entirely with ToB classes, but a couple of levels or just reserving some feats for Martial Study and Martial Stance will let you grab some maneuvers and a stance that are both effective and in keeping with the Knight's flavor.

Suzuro
2007-12-12, 07:09 PM
Although I haven't played a knight (The Class), I have been in the process of making one, and mine seems to be basically using a lance or the like to charge in on a horse, it fits in with historic horse-riding knights.


-Suzuro

Dode
2007-12-12, 07:18 PM
Well, a Goliath is simply too heavy to be a Mounted Knight.

But if I wanted to be a full-out tank, I'd grab Exotic Armor Proficiency (Mountain Plate) at level 9, where Knights get Armor Mastery and ignore speed reduction for heavy armors.

Think of Knights as the opposite end of the spectrum of the Barbarian. While the Barbarian is a fighter geared towards offensive might, the Knight is a fighter geared towards defensive strength.

Wagadodo
2007-12-13, 09:46 AM
I have been wanting to make a Knight for some time now. If I was to make one I would make a Dwarf Knight. Take Endurance as your free feat at 5th level, take toughness at level 1, and then Dodge at level 3. This will allow you to go into the dwarven defender Prc. Knight class abilities actually make the Dwarven Defender a viable option as a Prc. Your Non Mobility issues caused by being the Dwarven Defender are negated by the Knight making your enemies come to you.

Plus if you get an 20 in your Con, who wouldn't want to play a character that has 20 hitpoints at first level?

Person_Man
2007-12-13, 10:03 AM
Here are a few of my favorite Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) builds:

Sir Didymus
Strongheart Halfling Knight 10

Con > Cha > Dex > Str > Int 13 > Wis (dump): You need a Dex of at least 14, because you're going to be taking a lot of AoO. It's ok to dump Wis, because you have a strong Will Save and can always buy a Cloak of Resistance.

Strongheart Halflings lose their Save bonus and gain a bonus feat instead. It's a Forgotten Realms Race. You can use Gnome instead if you want, but you'll be down a feat, so you'll probably want to take Flaws.

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (Halfling bonus feat), Mounted Combat (Knight bonus), Knock-Down, Ride By Attack (Knight bonus), Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Spirited Charge (Knight bonus). If possible, also pick up Shock Trooper ASAP. Though its not pivotal for this build, it helps a lot on your Charge attacks.

Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a pack of dogs, trained for guard duty, attack, and riding. They're cheap, fast, and also useful for disarming traps in dungeons. (Fetch the bone Lassie!) Ride one into combat, and have the others guard the campsite and act as replacements in case your main mount gets killed. An even better combination is if you have a Druid or Ranger in the party with an animal companion. At higher levels, you can take Leadership or Dragon Cohort and get something more useful, preferably something with flight.

Your combo is simple. Use Test of Mettle to draw your enemies to you. Charge through and past them repeatedly, drawing them as far away as you can from the rest of your party. Divide and conquer. Have the rest of the party gang up on whoever passed their Test of Mettle Save, and once they're dead, have them kill whoever is following you around - one at a time - vastly increasing your party's effectiveness.

Use your lance and shield together for higher AC, or use your lance two handed for Power Attack and Spirited Charge for 3(1d6+magic+[Str*1.5]+[BAB*2]) damage. If possible, use an animated shield, so that you can gain you Knight bonus to it while maximizing your damage output.

If someone tries to attack you, you get a free hit on them (lance is a reach weapon) followed by a free Trip attempt (Knock-Down). Remember, no one can charge through an occupied square, so if the person isn't killed, they become defensive terrain for you. And with Vigilante Defender, Skill Monkeys and Monks will have a hard time bypassing your defenses.

Also, its important to note that if someone under the effect of your Test of Mettle is standing 0-10 feet away from you, your next action should usually be to Withdraw or Move away at your full speed, or if possible Charge through and past them or someone else on the battlefield, ending up 70ish feet away. Don't make a Full Attack. And don't take your To-Hit down so far with Power Attack that you risk missing. This is counter intuitive, but remember that your main goal on the battlefield is to control your enemies, not engage them. If they spend every round chasing you, that's another round they're not attacking your friends. This is your true goal. Occasional massive damage from a great charge attack is just a helpful side effect.

Keep in mind that using this combo is just begging your DM to throw incorporeal (immune to Trip) enemies and/or enemies with no Int score (immune to Test of Mettle) at you. So I suggest you buy two lances: One main +4 Adamantine Lance (maximizing your chance To-Hit) for regular combat, and a secondary +1 Cold Steel Ghost Touch Lance of Disruption for when its appropriate.

Your DM will probably also mix in a large number of ranged combatants, so be sure to have a friend cast Protection from Arrows on you.

Ping Pong Pete
Goliath Knight 12 (ECL 13)


Cha > Dex > Str > Con > Int 13 > Wis (dump): Like Sir Didymus, you need a Dex of at least 14, because you're going to be taking a lot of AoO. And it's ok to dump Wis, because you have a strong Will Save and can always buy a Cloak of Resistance. But thanks to the racial bonuses, Pete doesn't need to invest in Str and Con as highly as Sir Didymus.

Feats: Power Attack, Mounted Combat (bonus), Improved Bull Rush, Ride By Attack (bonus), Combat Reflexes, Knockback (Races of Stone), Spirited Charge (bonus), Shock Trooper.

Pete has two combo's. The first copies Sir Didymus. Get on a horse, use Test of Mettle, divide and conquer. Note that your damage output will definitely be higher, because you can use a large lance, use Shock Trooper to shift the To-Hit penalty to AC, and will generally have higher Str.

The second combo revolves around Knockback. It's a feat that's limited to Large and Powerful Build races which gives you a free Bull Rush whenever you hit an enemy, adding your Power Attack bonus to it. So instead of leaving your enemies Prone, you push them back. Shock Trooper allows you to move your enemies one square to the left or right for each square you push them back. And it gives you a free Trip attempt if you can steer a Bull Rushed enemy into another enemy's square. And hilariously, all your enemies can do is get up and head right back towards you.

This build is more powerful, but it suffers from two big weaknesses. First, since goliaths are a medium race, they can generally only be mounted while outdoors. Being a small race, Sir Didymus can pretty much go anywhere on his medium mount, maintaining his mobility under almost any conditions. If you just know that you're going to be spending a lot of time indoors, then drop the Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge and pick up Iron Will and Great Fortitude instead (sigh, I wish the Knight's bonus feat list was better), and pick up Leap Attack as soon as you can.

Second, Sir Didymus is playable at every level, but Pete desperately needs lots of feats for his key second combo to work. Flaws help. But if you can't use flaws and you're playing at mid levels you have to suck it up and take 2 levels of Fighter, and accept the fact that your Knight abilities will be somewhat sub-par.

Trenelus
2007-12-13, 11:34 AM
Whit many good memories I recommend human knight. I made and played one in Red Hand of Doom and I can tell that they were some good times. Here's the build I used, using staff from books: PHB I & II and Draconomicon:
Alfred von Schulding, the Knight of Black Lily, Human male Knight
Str 15, Dex 10, Con, 14, Int, 12, Wis 10, Cha 14, 28p character, raise Str +3 and then Cha +2
Feats I took (and planned to took) at what lv:
1.(b) Exotic Weapon Profiency (bastardsword) 1. Power Attack
2.(b) Mounted Combat 3. Shield Specialization (heavy) 5.(b) Iron Will
6. Shield Ward 9. Improved Critical (bastard) 10.(b) Endurance
12. Indomitable Will 15.(b) Great Fortitude 15. Defencive Sweep
18. Frightful Presence
Knight's Shiel Ally begain real life saver, tooking half of damage made the diffirence when other melee characters were rog/fig/street fighter and bard/swasb/duelist. Test of mettle make sure that weak minded enemies tried to kill the one in party whit best AC and HP, instead the greater damage dealers (the two i mentioned).

Btw, I'm not so sure is the tactic what Person Man's Sir Didymus uses so honorful one for brave knight... Even though it seems to be effective in it's owm way.

Sir Didymus: Ok you no good bastards of goblins, come see if you can have a piece of me (*uses Test of mettle agains hoard of orcs)
Orcs: Hey guys, get that one who makes fun of our great grandfather! Charge!!! (every one fails will save)
Sir Didymus: Mamma mia! (*withdraws at full speed whit Lassie)

MorkaisChosen
2007-12-13, 01:54 PM
I'm planning a PHB2 Knight for a campaing that's coming up (Human, this one, but more for fluff reasons than game mechanics). Small twist on your basic "I'm big and tough and manly" character- it's a female knight who challenges anyone who says something sexist (mostly because there does tend to be a bit of that kind of thing at my group, and I wanted to beat the zog out of people for it).

One thing to remember is how to Intimidate people as a Knight. Within the code, you can't do "Give me all your money or I'll kill you," but you can do that old favourite (to guards at a gate who won't let you pass), "Do you not know who I am? I warn you, sir, aggravating me would be a most unwise course of action."

Dode
2007-12-13, 02:00 PM
Under the Knight's code, you can set a commoner's house on fire, throw a sword at his feet and beat his wife and kids around with nonlethal damage to goad him to fight you.

Which is awesome.

Dhavaer
2007-12-14, 03:43 AM
@tyckspoon: Well, I know that. You cant keep someone permanently disarmed/tripped because it states that an AoO must be a normal attack and can't use any special attacks like grapples.

What? You can use special attacks as AoOs, the reason you can't keep someone permanently prone is because the AoO occurs before the action that provokes it, and you can't trip someone who's already prone.

WorthingSon
2007-12-14, 09:44 AM
I am a big fan of knights for a AoO Tank build. It may not be the most optimized class, but it is fun and interesting. Just be aware that you will usually end-up as the PC that talks with the NPC's, as they usually want to talk to the knight instead of the *insert most other classes here*. Some feats I would look into:


Combat Reflexes (PH p92) - 1. You may make Attacks of Opportunity while Flat-Footed.
2. You may make up to your Dexterity modifier in extra Attacks of Opportunity per round (instead of the
normal limit of 1), but only one such attack per creature each round.

Defensive Sweep (DR340 p87) - If an opponent begins his/her round adjacent to you and does not move for the entire round (including a 5’ Step), he/she generates an Attack of Opportunity for you just after his/her round ends.

Backstab (DR340 p86) - You may make an Attack of Opportunity against an opponent that you flank who attacks a target other than you.


With the knight ability Bulwark of Defense and the Defensive Sweep feat (Req BAB +15), you will force any foe that starts their turn next to you to either retreat, or provoke an AoO. Throw in Backstab, forcing them to target you if you have flanking, allowing you protect the rest of the party (or force yet another AoO from a foe). If you are not allowed Dragon Mag content then I'd focus more on mounted combat.