Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Kobold Wizard

[Delden Roev]

How would the "Spellhoarding" dragon psychosis template (from Dragon Mag #313) interact with a Kobold who had the "Dragonwrought" and "Draconic Reservoir" feats (from Races of the Dragon and its associated web enhancement), who had completed both the "Draconic Rite of Passage" and the "Greater Draconic Rite of Passage" rituals (again, RotD and associated web enhancement)? Specifically, would a Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Kobold who later completed the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage gain a free level of Wizard casting instead of Sorcerer?

The Greater Rite of Draconic Passage grants a Kobold new spells per day and an increase in caster level and spells known as if they had also gained one level in the Sorcerer class. It requires that they be a Kobold with a minimum of 6 hit dice and a minimum of one level in the Sorcerer class, who already completed the Rite of Draconic Passage (which grants a Kobold a once-per-day usage of a 1st level Sorcerer spell as a spell-like ability), and the Kobold must have already taken the Draconic Reservoir feat (which ups the once-a-day usage of the spell-like ability from the Rite of Draconic Passage up to thrice-a-day).

The Spellhoarding dragon psychosis has a few effects on a dragon (which, a Dragonwrought Kobold is), but the main feature of interest is this: "Wizard Casting: A Spellhoarding dragon prepares and casts spells as a Wizard, not as a Sorcerer. Use its Intelligence score rather than its Charisma to determine saving throw DCs, bonus spells, and the level of spells available for casting. Spellhoarding dragons do not use spellbooks; they memorize spells from their spell hoards."

By RAW, I think a Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Kobold would still have to have a level of Sorcerer to take the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage (regardless of whether or not it gained an extra caster level/spells as a Sorcerer or Wizard). But I think a case could be made for either outcome (Sorcerer level vs. Wizard level). If one does in fact gain a Wizard level in this very specific circumstance, I believe a reasonable DM could and would work with a player and say that the prereqs for Rite and Greater Rite become a level of Wizard and not Sorcerer for the incredibly rare and niche Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Kobold Wizard, but that's in RAI territory.

In lieu of a reasonable DM, I have a follow-up question (this focuses on retraining). By RAW, characters lose access to the effects of feats and prestige class abilities if they lose the prereqs (be they skill ranks, feats, other class levels, etc.). But I see no mention of what happens if a character completes a ritual (requiring prereqs) to gain extra abilities, but they then lose or retrain the prereqs afterwards. By RAW, can a Kobold with a single level of Sorcerer, who has completed the Rite and Greater Rite, retrain their single level of Sorcerer away to something else and still keep the benefits of Rite and Greater Rite? Could they also retrain the Draconic Reservoir feat and still keep the benefit of Greater Rite?

[Zombulian]

Easy answer is no. By RAW, Dragonwrought Kobolds are not true dragons, thus dragon psychoses cannot be applied to them, and you can skip this whole headache.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Easy answer is no. By RAW, Dragonwrought Kobolds are not true dragons, thus dragon psychoses cannot be applied to them, and you can skip this whole headache.Whether or not Dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons, the article does say that the templates could be applied to other types of creatures.

[Zombulian]

Whether or not Dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons, the article does say that the templates could be applied to other types of creatures.

Each template specifies true dragons, though. Regardless, it seems like a lot of headache trying to do a RAW analysis of a mechanic that will not work by RAW.

[Morphic tide]

It's funny that the hardest counter-argument for Dragonwrought Kobolds not being True Dragons is that Races of the Dragons gives an exhaustive list of Half Dragons for all True Dragons, and thus anything printed previously absent from that list is implicitly not. They do have the required number of age categories and the Dragon type, after all, so the incredibly poor choice of wording in Draconomicon doesn't give a clear "no". And unlike with certain shenanigans regarding casting early entry, you can't be a Dragonwrought Kobold without Races of the Dragon, and Races of the Dragon makes a deliberate point of overriding Draconomicon.

[Crake]

I think its a pretty hard sell to say that kobolds can inscribe spells onto their scales when they dont even HAVE scales as far as I can tell, they have lizard hide, not scales upon further reading, this does appear to be the same thing, but still, see below.

And even if they DO have scales, I still think its a pretty hard sell to say they can inscribe spells on scales that small.

[redking]

If your DM (or if you are the DM) and s/he has no problem with house ruling that dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons then they will have no problem with dragonwrought kobold having a dragon psychosis either.

[Buufreak]

I think its a pretty hard sell to say that kobolds can inscribe spells onto their scales when they dont even HAVE scales as far as I can tell, they have lizard hide, not scales upon further reading, this does appear to be the same thing, but still, see below.

And even if they DO have scales, I still think its a pretty hard sell to say they can inscribe spells on scales that small.

How do you feel about tiny or fine creatures having spellbooks? They would roughly be the size of a kobold scale.

[Remuko]

I think its a pretty hard sell to say that kobolds can inscribe spells onto their scales when they dont even HAVE scales as far as I can tell, they have lizard hide, not scales upon further reading, this does appear to be the same thing, but still, see below.

And even if they DO have scales, I still think its a pretty hard sell to say they can inscribe spells on scales that small.

They do have scales. Also looking up the spellhoarding template and reading it, it says "each spell it knows appears as a rune or sigil on one of its scales" and then repeats a little later "any spell the dragon learns takes physical form on its body as a rune or arcane symbol scribed upon one of its scales" and that they prepare spells, as the templates name suggests from their hoard not their scales. now maybe you read this differently but it sounds like the runes just appear automatically to me based on the text, so they dont inscribe them themselves. tho the section on their spells on does mention they still need to consume the same resources as if they were scribing a spell in a spellbook, but again it doesnt say they actually manually do inscribe the runes on their scales.

[Crake]

as the templates name suggests from their hoard not their scales.

From how I read it, the spells on their scales ARE their spell hoard, it's the same thing.


How do you feel about tiny or fine creatures having spellbooks? They would roughly be the size of a kobold scale.

Considering Kobolds have an alternate racial trait called slight build that lets them be treated as tiny creatures for various things, I sincerely doubt you can say a kobold's scale would be the equivalent of a spellbook page for a tiny creature. Even for a dimunitive or fine creature it would be dubious. MAYBE for their biggest scales, of which they'd only really have a handful in very specific places, but nowhere near enough to constitute a spellhoard like described in the description of spellhoarding dragons.

The other thing to consider is that, while fine and dimunitive creatures might have smaller spellbooks, they also have smaller eyes to take in that finer detail. True dragons are described as having EXCELLENT eyesight, so while their scales are quite small compared to their actual size, they have the eyesight to be able to distinguish the fine details that would be needed to prepare a spell from their spellhoard. Kobolds do not have this luxury of being able to effectively read a novel off of a pebble.

[Remuko]

From how I read it, the spells on their scales ARE their spell hoard, it's the same thing.

yeah i dont see that reading at all. their hoard is the giant pile of gold and treasure in their lair. thats what they get their spells from, and when they learn new spells they get runes representing them on their scales. i dont think theyre directly related at all and dont think anything suggests this.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Let's assume that Dragonwrought Kobolds are true dragons (which I do not condone as a reading‚ notably considering the whole half-dragon table‚ but it seems that's what you go for)‚ and that templates without a level adjustment entry are LA+0 (technically RAW‚ but leads to stupid things like Unseelie Fey‚ Chosen of Deneir or Archdragon being LA+0).

Then you still wouldn't be able to go through the Draconic Rite of Passage. Spellhoarding makes you cast as a wizard rather than a sorcerer. There's no mention of racial casting‚ you just don't get to advance as a sorcerer at all‚ and thus don't qualify. If you decide to ignore this‚ then you're in the realm of homebrew and you can decide anything that makes sense for you happens.

[loky1109]

The other thing to consider is that, while fine and dimunitive creatures might have smaller spellbooks, they also have smaller eyes to take in that finer detail.
Actually, to see smaller details you need bigger eyes. Or to be more precisely bigger pupil.

[Crake]

yeah i dont see that reading at all. their hoard is the giant pile of gold and treasure in their lair. thats what they get their spells from, and when they learn new spells they get runes representing them on their scales. i dont think theyre directly related at all and dont think anything suggests this.

"Each spell it knows appears as a rune or sigil on one of its scales. These magically altered scales constitute it's "spell hoard""

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

[Troacctid]

Since kobolds can't qualify for Spellhoarding by RAW, the two are mutually exclusive by RAW, and the only way to have both at once is with special DM permission, at which point the DM ought to just decide what happens—although for the sake of consistency, it would make sense to treat it the same way you would treat sorcerer casting from an actual level of sorcerer.

The more interesting question from a RAW standpoint is this one, because it involves a rules-legal scenario:

In lieu of a reasonable DM, I have a follow-up question (this focuses on retraining). By RAW, characters lose access to the effects of feats and prestige class abilities if they lose the prereqs (be they skill ranks, feats, other class levels, etc.). But I see no mention of what happens if a character completes a ritual (requiring prereqs) to gain extra abilities, but they then lose or retrain the prereqs afterwards. By RAW, can a Kobold with a single level of Sorcerer, who has completed the Rite and Greater Rite, retrain their single level of Sorcerer away to something else and still keep the benefits of Rite and Greater Rite? Could they also retrain the Draconic Reservoir feat and still keep the benefit of Greater Rite?
This is a great question! The effects of the ritual are instantaneous, and will remain with you even if you later lose the prerequisites for some reason. So if you lose the Draconic Reservoir feat, you still keep the boosts. However, the benefits of the ritual are tied to the readying of your existing daily allotment of sorcerer spells, so if you rebuild away all your sorcerer levels (or lose them to level drain), it would be a valid interpretation for the DM to say that you can't access the additional spells anymore until you have sorcerer casting again. It would also be valid for the DM to say that it's self-qualifying, and that's just all part of the normal weirdness that you sometimes encounter when using the rebuilding rules. If you're the DM, you get to adjudicate these sorts of ambiguities, so just pick your favorite.

[Bartmanhomer]

Here we go again with the Dragonwrought Kobold argument. This forum never ceased to amaze me. (No pun intended). :sigh:

[Scots Dragon]

They do have the required number of age categories and the Dragon type, after all, so the incredibly poor choice of wording in Draconomicon doesn't give a clear "no".

Contrary to popular opinion, the Draconomicon doesn't have a poor choice of wording. Certain players who think the game works by weird hyper-specific legalese and not just, being remotely reasonable about the interpretations, are just remarkably adept at reading implications of something which aren't actually there. I swear, if people read the rules in a naturalistic way half of the problems with D&D 3.5e would evaporate.

[Darg]

Contrary to popular opinion, the Draconomicon doesn't have a poor choice of wording. Certain players who think the game works by weird hyper-specific legalese and not just, being remotely reasonable about the interpretations, are just remarkably adept at reading implications of something which aren't actually there. I swear, if people read the rules in a naturalistic way half of the problems with D&D 3.5e would evaporate.

I don't think it's actually popular or even widely held to be true. Most people I've come across think that there is a list of true dragons in the MM which gets expanded just like a spell list through other sources. As nothing explicitly says kobolds are true dragons they aren't part of the list. That said, even these people will spread the meme far and wide just because it's fun.

[Zombulian]

I don't think it's actually popular or even widely held to be true. Most people I've come across think that there is a list of true dragons in the MM which gets expanded just like a spell list through other sources. As nothing explicitly says kobolds are true dragons they aren't part of the list. That said, even these people will spread the meme far and wide just because it's fun.

I think the meme ended up with a life of its own, leading plenty to believe it over the years. You should have seen the debate threads back in the day.