Disarm 3.5

[yeetusmcgeetus]

I’m a dm for a fairly powergamey group. One of my players is a monk specializing in disarms. Is it just me or is this entirely broken, and what can my martial npcs do to avoid it?

On his turn he just makes a disarm check and almost always wins, nullifying most of the power of any martial enemy, and then uses the rest of his 8 attacks to deal absurd damage using a monk’s belt and some other crap. Then he’s also almost impossible to hit because he got some of those armor-enchanted robes and we’re pretty sure they stack with his monk bonus.

Other thing i forgot to mention: i have a houserule that drawing/stowing weapons is a free action, which is how he can steal a weapon and then still make unarmed strikes

So the questions are:
1) why the hell do people think monks are underpowered if they can do this
2) how can my npcs counter this (other than just all being casters)

[glass]

I’m a dm for a fairly powergamey group. One of my players is a monk specializing in disarms. Is it just me or is this entirely broken, and what can my martial npcs do to avoid it?

On his turn he just makes a disarm check and almost always wins, nullifying most of the power of any martial enemy, and then uses the rest of his 8 attacks to deal absurd damage using a monk’s belt and some other crap. Then he’s also almost impossible to hit because he got some of those armor-enchanted robes and we’re pretty sure they stack with his monk bonus.

Other thing i forgot to mention: i have a houserule that drawing/stowing weapons is a free action, which is how he can steal a weapon and then still make unarmed strikes

So the questions are:
1) why the hell do people think monks are underpowered if they can do this
2) how can my npcs counter this (other than just all being casters)A couple of thoughts:

IME, most melee enemies have natural weapons, and even the ones that have manufactured weapons do not rely on a particular one to the extent weapon-using PCs do (especially relevant if the can draw a replacement as a free action).
The reason Monks are considered under-powered is that they cannot typically do "absurd damage" (or any meaningful damage at all really), especially not if they are also making themselves really hard to hit. How are they doing so?
They can make themselves very hard to hit, but that's just not terribly useful in isolation.
They do not need your house rule to be able to attack with unarmed strikes while holding someone else's weapon, and even if they did they could just drop it.
Disarm does not normally end up with the disarmer holding the weapon, does it?


I have never seen a disarm-focused Monk in play, but I have seen a Disarm-focused Fighter and (despite their inherently-higher bonuses) they were a long way from always succeeding.

EDIT: As for question 2: Natural weapons, locking gauntlets, backup weapons....

[yeetusmcgeetus]

A couple of thoughts:

IME, most melee enemies have natural weapons, and even the ones that have manufactured weapons do not rely on a particular one to the extent weapon-using PCs do (especially relevant if the can draw a replacement as a free action).



Ah, true. I’ve been forgetting to give my martial enemies backup weapons and that would definitely help



The reason Monks are considered under-powered is that they cannot typically do "absurd damage" (or any meaningful damage at all really), especially not if they are also making themselves really hard to hit. How are they doing so?



I have been meaning to reinvestigate his damage combo, but it largely revolves around using Monk’s Belt, something else that raises his unarmed strike level, and Improved Natural Attack to make unarmed strikes as a Large level 20 monk - base 4d8. Combine that with Str, other things that add damage, and 8 attacks a round from Snap Kick etc and it adds up very fast.



Disarm does not normally end up with the disarmer holding the weapon, does it?


Disarm does end up with you holding the opponent’s weapon if you’re unarmed, right? Or has the internet lied to me again



Thanks for the help!

[Yora]

If you disarm with empty hands, then you hold the weapon.

Improved Disarm gives you a +4 to your disarm attack roll, but disarming with empty hands (as with any light weapons) is a -4 penalty as well. I would check that this is actually applied correctly. Just in case.

An opponent holding a large weapon two-handed gets a +4 bonus to his roll.
If the opponent is large, he gets another +4 bonus.

A halfling with a dagger is in a very bad spot when someone tries to disarm him. (-8)
An oger with a greatclub is a very different story. (+8)

And disarm is an attack roll, not a Strength check. And monk base attack bonus is not that great. That will be an advantage for fighters and the like, and even warriors. A monk's belt increases AC and damage, but does not affect attack rolls.

Just with Improved Disarm and a monk's belt, disarming should not be that game breakingly effective.

[yeetusmcgeetus]

If you disarm with empty hands, then you hold the weapon.

Improved Disarm gives you a +4 to your disarm attack roll, but disarming with empty hands (as with any light weapons) is a -4 penalty as well. I would check that this is actually applied correctly. Just in case.

An opponent holding a large weapon two-handed gets a +4 bonus to his roll.
If the opponent is large, he gets another +4 bonus.

A halfling with a dagger is in a very bad spot when someone tries to disarm him. (-8)
An oger with a greatclub is a very different story. (+8)

Okay, that's essentially what I thought. Good to have confirmation. And yeah, I have been reminding him of the -4 from unarmed.



And disarm is an attack roll, not a Strength check. And monk base attack bonus is not that great. That will be an advantage for fighters and the like, and even warriors. A monk's belt increases AC and damage, but does not affect attack rolls.

He does have an item that gives him the Divine Power spell, increasing his BAB to full, but I also do think he may unfortunately be fudging his die rolls, because he does seem to succeed more often than he should.


Just with Improved Disarm and a monk's belt, disarming should not be that game breakingly effective.
I mean, if a martial character doesn't have a backup weapon, they're basically just screwed. Most enemies that use weapons aren't all that great at unarmed strikes.

[glass]

I have been meaning to reinvestigate his damage combo, but it largely revolves around using Monk’s Belt, something else that raises his unarmed strike level, and Improved Natural Attack to make unarmed strikes as a Large level 20 monk - base 4d8. Combine that with Str, other things that add damage, and 8 attacks a round from Snap Kick etc and it adds up very fast.Is the "something else" Superior Unarmed Strike from ToB? (I think that's what it is called.)

It is, shall we say, hotly debated whether monks inherently qualify for INA (my opinion is that they do not). But if you've already allowed him to take it that ship has sailed. And they might have the natural weapons to qualify for it anyway.

4d8 is only 18 on average. It is the "other bonuses" that really add up, and they tend to be much more expensive for Monks than regular weapon users.

I do not know what Snap Kick does exactly, but eight attacks sounds like rather a lot for an mid-level Monk.


Disarm does end up with you holding the opponent’s weapon if you’re unarmed, right?You might be right! I could not the 3.5 SRD to load, and I cannot be bothered to dig out my old PHBs. I have too many books for various systems around me as it is!


Thanks for the help!You're welcome!

ETA:

He does have an item that gives him the Divine Power spell, increasing his BAB to full, but I also do think he may unfortunately be fudging his die rolls, because he does seem to succeed more often than he should.Ah, that certainly help explain it (both the ease of disarming and the subsequent damage. (And also why the disarm is at the start of the Flurry rather than in the round before when they move into melee range - they're busy activating the item?)


I mean, if a martial character doesn't have a backup weapon, they're basically just screwed. Most enemies that use weapons aren't all that great at unarmed strikes.I would assume pretty much everyone has a dagger, at least.

[tyckspoon]

If you are primarily using other classed humanoids as opponents there are a lot of niche/generally less-optimal moves that suddenly become much more practical - Disarming is one of them. If your monk has invested a lot of resources in being good at Disarming, honestly.. let them. It's not something you get to flex a lot against many D&D foes, and it won't be useful at all when they have to try to get past somebody's guard golem or pet wyrms or whatever other monstrous foes you can find a reason to put into your encounters. And if your Monk is expecting things to still be -standing- after hitting them with an 8-attack Full Attack sequence, then his damage is indeed very low and that Disarm is the combat payoff he's looking for, since the alternative would be 'use that Attack to just punch them again and probably kill them.'

That said, you can make sure your martial enemies carry a backup weapon - a sword, dagger, spiked gauntlet, armor spikes, whatever, it won't be as effective as their greataxe but you just need them to be able to attack. Or give them something like Tome of Battle martial maneuvers that don't need to use a specific weapon to be a threat. Equipment to provide resistance to being Disarmed (especially if the player group is fighting an organization that might start reporting and sharing information on their preferred tactics - even something as simple as putting a chain on the weapon so now the Monk has to make a break test or spend another attack or two to Sunder the chain as well as the Disarm test to pull the weapon out of somebody's hand.)

Maybe get into some of the more exotic 'martial' (defined here as 'primary combat tactic is Make An Attack Roll Against AC To Make HP Go Down') varieties that don't use standard weapons. Soulknives, incarnum users, psywarriors, shapeshifters w/natural weapons, etc - plenty of builds that make weaponlike attacks without being susceptible to Disarm.

"I do not know what Snap Kick does exactly, but eight attacks sounds like rather a lot for an mid-level Monk."


When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus. This attack is an unarmed attack that deals damage equal to your base unarmed attack damage + 1/2 your Str bonus. You take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls you make this round.

Snap Kick is very silly, especially as read that you can trigger it off every instance of a melee attack without limit (including potentially other Snap Kick triggered attacks, possibly allowing you to declare that you attempt to make infinite Snap Kick attacks, at which point you don't care that you are taking a -infinity to hit because you're just fishing for nat-20 autohits now.) Assuming you run it in a more sane fashion (only one Snap Kick per attack declaration, only one Snap Kick per BAB-derived iterative or something similar) still need to remember that -2 to all attack rolls for using it.. which includes a Disarm attempt, and in order to do the math right you would have to declare that you are intending to use Snap Kick BEFORE you roll any of your other attacks.

8 attacks for a mid-level monk.. assuming at least level 11 and cheating BAB in some fashion, you'd get 3 from BAB derived, 2 from Flurrying, at least 1 Snap Kick, Haste/Speed effect is probably reasonable to assume at that level makes 7. Either allowing a second Snap Kick, two-weapon fighting, or any other way to generate a bonus attack hits 8.

[yeetusmcgeetus]

Is the "something else" Superior Unarmed Strike from ToB? (I think that's what it is called.)
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's it


It is, shall we say, hotly debated whether monks inherently qualify for INA (my opinion is that they do not). But if you've already allowed him to take it that ship has sailed. And they might have the natural weapons to qualify for it anyway.
I was fairly certain he could, because monk unarmed strikes explicitly count as both natural and manufactured weapons.


4d8 is only 18 on average. It is the "other bonuses" that really add up, and they tend to be much more expensive for Monks than regular weapon users.
Yeah, I'm definitely going to re-investigate what exactly his other bonuses are. He was rolling a LOT more than 18 per hit.



I do not know what Snap Kick does exactly, but eight attacks sounds like rather a lot for an mid-level Monk.
Snap Kick just gives more attacks, at the cost of giving a penalty to all attacks in the round it's activated. He also has Lightning Fists, which is basically the same thing. In total he has 3 attacks from BAB, 2 from Flurry, 2 from Lightning Fists, and 1 from Snap Kick.

Anyway, I do think I'm basically just gonna have more enemies with backup weapons or decent unarmed strikes to combat the disarm, although he's still quite powerful from 8 attacks a round.

[yeetusmcgeetus]

That said, you can make sure your martial enemies carry a backup weapon - a sword, dagger, spiked gauntlet, armor spikes, whatever, it won't be as effective as their greataxe but you just need them to be able to attack. Or give them something like Tome of Battle martial maneuvers that don't need to use a specific weapon to be a threat. Equipment to provide resistance to being Disarmed (especially if the player group is fighting an organization that might start reporting and sharing information on their preferred tactics - even something as simple as putting a chain on the weapon so now the Monk has to make a break test or spend another attack or two to Sunder the chain as well as the Disarm test to pull the weapon out of somebody's hand.)
Ooh these are very interesting ideas! This could especially work as one of the main forces the party is fighting is one particular fae court, who could absolutely learn from the players' tactics to do things like securing their weapons.




Snap Kick is very silly, especially as read that you can trigger it off every instance of a melee attack without limit (including potentially other Snap Kick triggered attacks, possibly allowing you to declare that you attempt to make infinite Snap Kick attacks, at which point you don't care that you are taking a -infinity to hit because you're just fishing for nat-20 autohits now.) Assuming you run it in a more sane fashion (only one Snap Kick per attack declaration, only one Snap Kick per BAB-derived iterative or something similar) still need to remember that -2 to all attack rolls for using it.. which includes a Disarm attempt, and in order to do the math right you would have to declare that you are intending to use Snap Kick BEFORE you roll any of your other attacks.

Yeah, I ruled that it's 1 extra attack per attack or full attack action, no infinite snap kick. I do make him declare his full set of attacks before he starts, so that -2 does apply.



8 attacks for a mid-level monk.. assuming at least level 11 and cheating BAB in some fashion, you'd get 3 from BAB derived, 2 from Flurrying, at least 1 Snap Kick, Haste/Speed effect is probably reasonable to assume at that level makes 7. Either allowing a second Snap Kick, two-weapon fighting, or any other way to generate a bonus attack hits 8.
8 is without Haste, using another feat called Lightning Fists that is essentially double Snap Kick - 2 extra attacks in a full attack but -5 to all attacks that round. You got the level exactly, and he is "cheating" BAB using a Divine Power item.

[tyckspoon]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's it
Yeah, I'm definitely going to re-investigate what exactly his other bonuses are. He was rolling a LOT more than 18 per hit.


Snap Kick just gives more attacks, at the cost of giving a penalty to all attacks in the round it's activated. He also has Lightning Fists, which is basically the same thing. In total he has 3 attacks from BAB, 2 from Flurry, 2 from Lightning Fists, and 1 from Snap Kick.


.. yeah, would recheck all of his combat math if you can find a way to bring that up without actually accusing him of cheating. With Lightning Fists in there as well he'll be taking -7 to all his attacks and really should not be consistently hitting or Disarming anything in that routine, especially once he's past the first three full-BAB attacks.

[Biggus]

He does have an item that gives him the Divine Power spell, increasing his BAB to full, but I also do think he may unfortunately be fudging his die rolls, because he does seem to succeed more often than he should.


Sorry, does he have an item which gives him a constant Divine Power effect? Because if so, I think that's quite a lot of the problem right there...

[yeetusmcgeetus]

Sorry, does he have an item which gives him a constant Divine Power effect? Because if so, I think that's quite a lot of the problem right there...
It's a charges/day item. I'm also not entirely sure he should have been able to afford it, on top of his monk's belt and armor-robes and any other items. He may have cheated his WBL.

[yeetusmcgeetus]

.. yeah, would recheck all of his combat math if you can find a way to bring that up without actually accusing him of cheating. With Lightning Fists in there as well he'll be taking -7 to all his attacks and really should not be consistently hitting or Disarming anything in that routine, especially once he's past the first three full-BAB attacks.

Wait, this reminded me of another rules clarification. I can't find this information in the feat descriptions, but can anyone tell me if the attacks from Snap Kick and Lightning Fists are at full BAB?

[Telonius]

Yeah, I'm calling some shenanigans here. Lightning Fist is from a 3.0 source (Sword and Fist), and here's the wording:

"You can make two extra attacks in a round. All attacks made this round suffer a -5 attack penalty. This feat requires the full attack action."

And, from Monk's description of Flurry of Blows (both in 3.0 and 3.5):
"A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows."

You either can spend a full attack action on Lightning Fist, or you can spend a full attack action on Flurry of Blows. Not both. Lightning Fist gives Monks the option of doing two extra attacks at -5 to everything, instead of one extra attack at -2 to everything from a regular Flurry. This was important back in 3.0, since Monks didn't get the "Greater Flurry" ability (at level 11) that they do in 3.5. They only ever got a single extra attack from Flurry of Blows, so the feat really was trading an extra attack at the expense of accuracy. In 3.5 now, after a Monk gets Greater Flurry, the feat becomes mostly pointless, since you can already take two extra attacks at zero penalty (instead of -5 to everything).

Now, you could take a read of the feat that the wording doesn't limit it to unarmed attacks or Monk weapons. So, technically, if your Monk disarms somebody's Greatsword they could "fake flurry" with it. But the monk would likely be eating some serious penalties to that: at the very least, -5 to every attack, plus the possibility of not being proficient in whatever it is they disarmed.

EDIT: Snap Kick also imposes a penalty to attacks:
"When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus. This attack is an unarmed attack that deals damage equal to your base unarmed attack damage + 1/2 your Str bonus. You take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls you make this round."

So, if you were a 12th-level Monk doing a Flurry of Blows, the attacks would be 9/9/9/4 to start, but with snap kick they'd be 7/7/7/7/2. (You'd add in any applicable bonuses from Strength and Wisdom on top of those).

If he instead decided to do the Lightning Fists thing plus snap kick, you'd have two extra attacks from Lightning Fist and one from Snap Kick, but at -7 to everything (5 from lightning, 2 from snap), for +2/+2/+2/+2/-3 before any other modifiers.

Adding Divine Power to any of those would help a bit (BAB 12 instead of BAB 9), but it's still a pretty dismal total.

[yeetusmcgeetus]

Yeah, I'm calling some shenanigans here. Lightning Fist is from a 3.0 source (Sword and Fist), and here's the wording:

"You can make two extra attacks in a round. All attacks made this round suffer a -5 attack penalty. This feat requires the full attack action."

And, from Monk's description of Flurry of Blows (both in 3.0 and 3.5):
"A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows."

You either can spend a full attack action on Lightning Fist, or you can spend a full attack action on Flurry of Blows. Not both. Lightning Fist gives Monks the option of doing two extra attacks at -5 to everything, instead of one extra attack at -2 to everything from a regular Flurry. This was important back in 3.0, since Monks didn't get the "Greater Flurry" ability (at level 11) that they do in 3.5. They only ever got a single extra attack from Flurry of Blows, so the feat really was trading an extra attack at the expense of accuracy. In 3.5 now, after a Monk gets Greater Flurry, the feat becomes mostly pointless, since you can already take two extra attacks at zero penalty (instead of -5 to everything).


Oh, well that certainly makes his attack routine a bit less ridiculous.



Now, you could take a read of the feat that the wording doesn't limit it to unarmed attacks or Monk weapons. So, technically, if your Monk disarms somebody's Greatsword they could "fake flurry" with it. But the monk would likely be eating some serious penalties to that: at the very least, -5 to every attack, plus the possibility of not being proficient in whatever it is they disarmed.
Yeah, plus his base unarmed damage is 4d8 which I'm pretty sure is better than any Medium weapon.

[Troacctid]

Lightning Fists and Flurry of Blows combine just fine together. You can do both of them on the same full attack action, no problem. I'm more interested in this Divine Power item—what's the activation time on that? Is it a pre-buff? Should I be adding it to my useful items spreadsheet? Because I can't think of any good Divine Power items off the top of my head.

I don't think making a big flurry of attacks with a -7 penalty to all of them is a big deal at level 11. It seems like par for the course to me, especially if it's costing a full-round action with only a 5-foot reach. If your player is doing the math correctly, then it's totally fair. You just need a better variety of encounter designs. Right now, it sounds like you keep pitting them against enemies who are especially vulnerable to being disarmed, which of course they're going to be favored against, right? It's like having a fire mage in the party and being surprised when they take down all your ice elementals and paper golems.

[King of Nowhere]

You can use locked gauntlets. Not magic, costs a pittance, doesn't occupy slots, gives +10 against disarm.

Anyway, you definitely should revise what your player is doing. First, even with some boosts he seem a bit low level to deal damage as a level 20 monk. Second, even with permanent divine power, his to-hit should not be great. My monk is nigh immortal, but he has troubles hitting armored targets - and pc types tend to have good armor. I did not take snap kick because the -2 to all attacks is not worth it.
Your players should have a -7, and that penalty DOES apply to disarm checks too. I am very curious how he manages to actually succeed when he's tanking a -8 for weapon size difference and a -7 for self imposed penalties. Add a +10 for locked gauntlet, he may as well ask to change feat. And how many of those 8 attacks are actually going to hit?

That said, while i'd check his numbers, i would not go too hard on him otherwise. Disarming only works against fighter typer, it's useless against casters and monsters, so when he does get a chance to use it, he should.

It's also worth noting how much the rest of the party is buffing him. If he's fighting every time with greater magic weapon, greater magic vestment, greater mage armor, enlarge person, prayer, heroism, then he's going to be formidable; but then it's not a monk problem, and the appropriate counter to a party using buffs competently is dispel magic. Which would also take care of the divine power item - something else you should check.
Heck, at my table - which i suspect is a tad higher level of optimization - every npc boss fight started with disjunction / triggers contingency to teleport out of disjunction range / quickened disjunction. Both the party and the npcs did that.

Finally, you should never trust what the internet says; take it with a pinch of salt. People say monks are weak because a lot of people keep repeating it. Well, monks suck badly in the hands of a beginner, but built decently they are powerful and fun.
But most important, EVERY TABLE IS DIFFERENT. Because every table has some houserules and some bans - sometimes explicitly, sometimes just because nobody will take something. You read on the internet a two handed weapon is best; at my table we banned some key feat for the ubercharger and most targets have high AC that will make power attack ineffective; we also give lots of loot, so you can afford two magic weapons. And at my table, two weapon fighting works best. Similarly, all the wizard guides i read say disjunction is weak, situational at best. But at my table, where all meaningful high level combat is against pc types (the internet assumes you'll be fighting big dumb monsters most of the time), everyone is full of buffs, and you have no issues with cash, disjunction + quickened disjunction is the way to go.
That's not because the internet is wrong or my table is wrong, but because the conditions, setup, and even a few rules are different.
So the next time you read internet advice, ask yourself : why is it so? And after you find the answer, ask yourself "does that apply to my game too?". And after you answered those questions, now you are ready to make good use of the informations you got

[glass]

I was fairly certain he could, because monk unarmed strikes explicitly count as both natural and manufactured weapons.I do not want to re-litigate that particular argument in this thread, particularly since you have already made your ruling, and in any case the damage on a hit seems pretty reasonable - what seems off is that he is actually landing a meaningful number of those hits.
The short version is: It says that the monk's unarmed strikes count as both manufactured and natural weapons for particular purposes, and meeting feat prerequisites is not amongst those listed.


Yeah, I'm definitely going to re-investigate what exactly his other bonuses are. He was rolling a LOT more than 18 per hit.Obviously, he would be adding Strength to that, and a bonus for his AoMF, although presumably both are modest given his other expenditures. But I cannot think of much else OTTOMH.

Does Divine Power add to damage in 3.5? I know the PF1 version (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Divine Power) does, but I also know the spell changed quite a lot.


Snap Kick just gives more attacks, at the cost of giving a penalty to all attacks in the round it's activated. He also has Lightning Fists, which is basically the same thing. In total he has 3 attacks from BAB, 2 from Flurry, 2 from Lightning Fists, and 1 from Snap KickI agree with Troactid that there does not appear to be any problem with using either feat with Flurry. I might be inclined to rule that the two feats do not stack with each other, but again that ship has sailed.

Not because I think it is particularly overpowered. If anything, I would fear it would actually reduce average damage against a lot of targets, but because of the massive handling time.

I am playing alongside a Monk in a PF1 game: He is a Zen Archer, so he actually can do significant damage. But his turns take so long.


Anyway, I do think I'm basically just gonna have more enemies with backup weapons or decent unarmed strikes to combat the disarm, although he's still quite powerful from 8 attacks a round.As others have said, don't go too far with limiting Disarm. Otherwise he'll just use all eight attacks for damage every time, which doesn't seem like an improvement!

[yeetusmcgeetus]

I do not want to re-litigate that particular argument in this thread, particularly since you have already made your ruling, and in any case the dame on a hit seems pretty reasonable - what seems of is that he ias actually landing a meaningful number of those hits.
The short version is: It says that the monk's unarmed strikes count as both manufactured and natural weapons for particular purposes, and meeting feat prerequisites is not amongst those listed.

Ahhh, I see. I'm gonna stick with my ruling, but I do realize how that rule is super ambiguous.



Does Divine Power add to damage in 3.5? I know the PF1 version (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Divine Power) does, but I also know the spell changed quite a lot.

DP doesn't add to damage that I know of, but it does increase Strength.

[yeetusmcgeetus]

I don't think making a big flurry of attacks with a -7 penalty to all of them is a big deal at level 11. It seems like par for the course to me, especially if it's costing a full-round action with only a 5-foot reach. If your player is doing the math correctly, then it's totally fair. You just need a better variety of encounter designs. Right now, it sounds like you keep pitting them against enemies who are especially vulnerable to being disarmed, which of course they're going to be favored against, right? It's like having a fire mage in the party and being surprised when they take down all your ice elementals and paper golems.

Okay, fair. I do tend to use a lot of weapon-wielding enemies :P. I will definitely have to make sure that -7 is actually getting counted, because it really doesn't seem like he should be hitting on average 7 of the 8 attacks.

[yeetusmcgeetus]

Anyway, you definitely should revise what your player is doing. First, even with some boosts he seem a bit low level to deal damage as a level 20 monk. Second, even with permanent divine power, his to-hit should not be great. My monk is nigh immortal, but he has troubles hitting armored targets - and pc types tend to have good armor. I did not take snap kick because the -2 to all attacks is not worth it.
Your players should have a -7, and that penalty DOES apply to disarm checks too. I am very curious how he manages to actually succeed when he's tanking a -8 for weapon size difference and a -7 for self imposed penalties. Add a +10 for locked gauntlet, he may as well ask to change feat. And how many of those 8 attacks are actually going to hit?

Yeah, I'm really not sure why he's hitting as often as he does. Where is the -8 size penalty from, though? The only size-related disarm factor I see is based on the size of the combatant, and even then most of the weapon-wielding enemies are the same size as him.



It's also worth noting how much the rest of the party is buffing him. If he's fighting every time with greater magic weapon, greater magic vestment, greater mage armor, enlarge person, prayer, heroism, then he's going to be formidable; but then it's not a monk problem, and the appropriate counter to a party using buffs competently is dispel magic. Which would also take care of the divine power item - something else you should check.

Oooh, I forgot dispel magic existed for a little bit (goldfish brain). That could be a very fun boss tactic, my party as a whole has a *lot* of magic gear.

[ShurikVch]

Some more stuff to either make it more difficult, or prevent disarming completely

Creatures
Chitine (Underdark/Monsters of Faerûn) - +4 to resist Disarming (but, since they're Small, it just negates the usual -4)
Keeper (Fiend Folio) - they can form flesh and bone of their arms into any kind of melee weapon; obviously, such weapon cannot be disarmed
Maug (Fiend Folio) - common recipients of Maug Grafts, namely - Locking Hand

Classes
-Base-
Divine Mind - Physical Power mantle: +1 on opposed Str checks - including resistance to Disarm attempts (and +1 more for every 5 levels)
Warblade - Battle Skill: at 11th level, add Int bonus (if any) on checks versus Disarming
-Prestige-
Disciple of the Word (Tome of Magic) - 2nd-level CF allows substitute a Truespeak check in place of a Str check to resist disarming; costs daily use of Stunning Fist
Incarnum Blade (Magic of Incarnum) - Blademeld Chakra Bind - 1st-level CF - Crown Chakra bind grants (among other things) +4 insight bonus on opposed attack rolls made to avoid being disarmed of the weapon with the blademeld

Feats
Combat Stability (Player's Handbook II) - +4 to resist Disarming; if you got 3+ combat form feats, then +8
Mountain Stance (Secrets of Sarlona) - +2 to resist Disarming
Resinbond (Dungeon #118) - +2 to resist Disarming (for kaorti resin weapon); requires arcane spellcasting
Shield Ward (Player's Handbook II) - allow to add your Shield AC vs Disarming
Tactical Advantage (Dragon #335) - allow to add your Favored Enemy bonus vs Disarming; requires Favored Enemy
Weapon Supremacy (Player's Handbook II) - +4 vs being disarmed; requires Fighter 18

Spells
Celestial Aspect (Sanctified 3; Book of Exalted Deeds) - Armblade of the Sword Archon - cannot be disarmed
Champion of Kord (Initiate of Kord 4; Dragon #342) - +CL vs Disarm (up to +10)
Dancing Blade (Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard 5; Player's Handbook II) - affected blade can't be disarmed
Dragonmark Whip (Sorcerer/Wizard 3; Dragonmarked) - the whip cannot be disarmed
Ice Axe (Cleric 3; Spell Compendium) - the axe cannot be disarmed
Resinous Tar (Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard 1; Complete Mage) - affected item gives +5 circumstance bonus vs being disarmed

Items
-Weapons-
Claw Bracer (Arms and Equipment Guide) - cannot be disarmed
Cutlass - +4 to resist Disarming (although it only negates the usual -4 penalty for Light Weapon)
Hook (Dragon #318) - cannot be disarmed; graft-like pirate "prosthetics"
Japute (Dragon #352) - The talon of a pterodactyl deinonychus or other powerful predator is mounted onto a wooden handle with several leather straps attached. +6 vs being disarmed
Scorpion Claws (Sandstorm) - +4 to avoid being disarmed
Sharktooth Gauntlets (Dragon #315) - cannot be disarmed
Tiger Claws (Arms and Equipment Guide) - cannot be disarmed
Wristlancet (Dragon #358) - +4 to resist Disarming (although it only negates the usual -4 penalty for Light Weapon)
-Special Item Qualities-
Basket Hilt (Dragon #358) - +4 vs being disarmed; applicable to swords; +50 gp
-Grafts-
Locking Hand (Fiend Folio) - +5 vs being disarmed; 2,000 gp
-Magic Items-
Armor of Weapon Creation (Arms and Equipment Guide) - Weapons created by the suit cannot be removed, and the wearer cannot be disarmed of any such weapon; 42,305 gp
Cutlass of Surety (Arms and Equipment Guide) - cannot be disarmed; 18,310 gp

[King of Nowhere]

Where is the -8 size penalty from, though? The only size-related disarm factor I see is based on the size of the combatant, and even then most of the weapon-wielding enemies are the same size as him.


Read again, you find the rules on d20srd. You get a size bonus for a two handed weapon, and a size penalty for a small weapon. So the monk gets a -4 for using unarmed attacks to disarm, and an average fighter with a greatsword should get +4.
Total, the monk has a -8 from the different sizes of weapons


Oooh, I forgot dispel magic existed for a little bit (goldfish brain). That could be a very fun boss tactic, my party as a whole has a *lot* of magic gear.

Dispel magic does not work on magic gear - ok, it can suppress a single item, but not worth it.
But it does remove buff spells. If your party relies on buff spells a lot, competent enemies should try to dispel

[Chronos]

A monk's unarmed strike counts as a manufactured weapon for some purposes. Anyone's unarmed strike, including a monk's, is a natural weapon. Monks don't need any special rule for their unarmed strikes to "count as" natural weapons, because that's the default.

And yes, technically this means that every creature qualifies for Improved Natural Attack, but it wouldn't be worthwhile for most of them.

[glass]

Dispel magic does not work on magic gearIf that magic gear just casts spells on its user, then they can be dispelled just fine. My impression is that that is how the Divine Power item functions, although TBF I don't think the OP has spelled out where the item comes from or exactly how it works.

If I am right about that, then at the very least dispelling it will use up another charge and a round to reactivate.

[King of Nowhere]

Incidentally, if you trust your players (big IF here) you could just ask them how to offer better challenges. Most groups do not have that level of trust, but if you are one of those lucky few, your players may just be happy to help you optimize npcs.
After all, if they just steamroll through all encounters because they optimize better than you, it's less fun for you but it's also less fun for them

[Pugwampy]

So the questions are:
1) why the hell do people think monks are underpowered if they can do this
2) how can my npcs counter this (other than just all being casters)

1. Most monk players dont consider grapple or disarm they try to attack Normally . They have less hp , att bonus and cannot equip as many magic items and need multiple High Ability stats .
I personally believe a monk needs fighter hp and attack bonus to compete .

2. Monks are limited to engaging 1 enemy at a time . Use multiple npc,s and attack him from both range and melee .
Use locked gauntlets to negate disarm .
Use your own monks if its good for the player its good for you .
Barbarian class even unarmed can handle a monk . A monk is useless against a heavily armoured enemy. Play with trip feat get the monk on his butt .
Play with monsters that have a natural attack as well as weapons . Eg a minotaur attacking with his horns ?