OOTS #1294 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[wilphe]

So Sunny has been dominated by something nasty...

[hroþila]

Dibs on "This is the Vessel"

[Linneris]

NOOOO! Not Sunny! Not the cute little beholder eye monster!

[enq]

And so I am reminded that V and Belkar have the best chemistry. :smallbiggrin:

[RichTF]

So Sunny has been dominated by something nasty...
* en-tranced. :smallwink:

[Alexandrite]

This instantly reads as the fiends' work to me, with that speech bubble. This seems unlikely to be Team Evil for a number of reasons, and I don't feel like we'd get a newcomer villain at this point.

[Ruck]

Uh oh.

And nicely if subtly foreshadowed in the previous strip, which wasn't obvious until now-- with Serini telling Sunny to wait and not to cross; maybe Sunny had already gone too far and whatever this thing is had done its work. (And if Sunny had already been enchanted, or whatever it is, then the party would have figured it out when Sunny didn't respond to Serini's command for the telekinesis eye-- if Durkon hadn't cut that off with the Mass Resist Acid.)


* en-tranced. :smallwink:

Heh, I didn't look that closely at the title or put it together until your comment.

[No good @ names]

NOOOO! Not Sunny! Not the cute little beholder eye monster!

I’m a bit confused by the forum sticking to this “not a beholder” convention. Is it an inside joke I don’t get???

But semantics aside, my sentiments exactly!


* en-tranced. :smallwink:


Heh, I didn't look that closely at the title or put it together until your comment.

Me three, thanks RichTF.

[inuyasha]

I’m a bit confused by the forum sticking to this “not a beholder” convention. Is it an inside joke I don’t get???

-snip-

Probably referring to OOTS #32 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html) where some lawyers show up. One of my favorite strips :)

[Menarker]

Not a lawyer, but from a quick google search: Basically, Beholders are one of the monsters trademarked by Wizard of the Coast. So the official name cannot be used extensively in works without opening itself to legal issues. Hence the various workarounds by using alternative names (Squid-Thingie for the Mind-Flayer, even though Elan used the name Mind-Flayer in the same comic) or actual names like Sunny.
Parody is protected speech, but there are limits to it.

[Blue Dragon]

…-L-Laurin? Just kidding lol! U N L E S S ?

[ZhonLord]

And that explains why Sunny wasn't talking while on the walkway. He was already enthralled.

[Fyraltari]

Well, that's ominous.

[Bookwyrm13]

Could it be the Vessel? Or just a scary high-level D&D critter I've never heard of that was intentionally stocked in the Final Dungeon?

Anyone more knowledgeable than me know what can charm (or whatever other swirly-eye conditions it may be) a beholder*?


*but not actually a beholder for legal purposes

[Emperor Time]

This can't be good since it looks like an unknown enemy has taken control of Sunny. And they must have a pretty sufficient spell level if they can do something like that to a Beholder without being noticed by anyone.

[No good @ names]

Dibs on "This is the Vessel"


Could it be the Vessel?
I thought the first poster was implying Sunny is now the Vessel, not Sunny is up against the Vessel.

[Shining Wrath]

Points to those who pointed out that Sunny had stopped engaging in the conversation in the last strip.

I wonder what sort of intelligent mesmerizing monster this will be?

Since Serini gets green speech bubbles for being part troll, this one getting red ones makes me think vampire. Or dragon, although dragons don't usually charm their foes like this.

[gallagher]

New Comic on my birthday! Thanks for the drop, great comic!

[Elanfanforlife]

This is the first time I've read a new OOTS before the discussion thread reached its second page. I feel weirdly happy about this.

[hamishspence]

That's an unusual speech bubble - two shades inside it (not counting the text itself) instead of one.

[No good @ names]

Points to those who pointed out that Sunny had stopped engaging in the conversation in the last strip.

I wonder what sort of intelligent mesmerizing monster this will be?

Since Serini gets green speech bubbles for being part troll, this one getting red ones makes me think vampire. Or dragon, although dragons don't usually charm their foes like this.


That's an unusual speech bubble - two shades inside it (not counting the text itself) instead of one.

Maybe how the Giant thought to put the three different colour speech bubbles of the IFCC into one, if they’re working together to capture Sunny?

[Emperor Time]

That's an unusual speech bubble - two shades inside it (not counting the text itself) instead of one.

I agree it quite unusual. It's probably a hint to the kind of creature it happens to be but have no clue beyond that.

[hamishspence]

Maybe how the Giant thought to put the three different colour speech bubbles of the IFCC into one, if they’re working together to capture Sunny?

I see yellow and orange, but no purple:


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html

[The MunchKING]

Dibs on "This is the Vessel"

Sabine does NOT Talk like that...


This instantly reads as the fiends' work to me, with that speech bubble. This seems unlikely to be Team Evil for a number of reasons, and I don't feel like we'd get a newcomer villain at this point.

I was thinking "looked at one of Sereni's monsters he wasn't supposed to". They have been building those guys up for a while.


That's an unusual speech bubble - two shades inside it (not counting the text itself) instead of one.

Something that changes its voice as it talks maybe?

[No good @ names]

I see yellow and orange, but no purple:


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html

You are correct, I have edited.

[Fyraltari]

this one getting red ones makes me think vampire.
Vampires have white-on-black speech bubbles (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html), this is different.

Maybe how the Giant thought to put the three different colour speech bubbles of the IFCC into one, if they’re working together to capture Sunny?

Hmm, like all three Directors are possessing the Vessel at the same time? I like the thought, but we're missing purple (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) if that's the case.

[The MunchKING]

I see yellow and orange, but no purple:

Red to Orange to Yellow gradient to me suggests Fire. Maybe a Fire Elemental or some kind of Fire God?

[No good @ names]

I see yellow and orange, but no purple:


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html



Hmm, like all three Directors are possessing the Vessel at the same time? I like the thought, but we're missing purple (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) if that's the case.

Ok new theory, Nero is making sure Cedrik and Lee are working well together.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html

[Lord Torath]

Okay, the monsters are all supposed to be in stasis. Does this mean something else has moved in?

[Peelee]

So Sunny has been dominated by something nasty...

* en-tranced. :smallwink:

And if Sunny had already been enchanted, or whatever it is
All these terms being bandied about when what is really going on is quite clear: Sunny is beholding something.

Or dragon, although dragons don't usually charm their foes like this.
Dragons can be quite charming, thankyouverymuch.

[hroþila]

I thought the first poster was implying Sunny is now the Vessel, not Sunny is up against the Vessel.

Sabine does NOT Talk like that...
No I wasn't saying the red and yellow speech bubble was Sabine and that Sunny is now the Vessel, I meant that the red and yellow speech bubble belongs to the Vessel, whoever that is*, and that the Vessel is now dominating Sunny. Despite the apparent lack of purple, the red-and-yellow gradient immediately makes me think of something powered jointly by the archfiends. But of course it could be anything

*I hate to say this but I can think of one character with access to mind-controlling spells who has ties with the IFCC

[Lord Raziere]

Aaaand things have officially gone south, its all off the rails from here, folks. the other shoe has dropped, and the OOTS are going to be pulled into a situation thats going to complicate this whole thing quite messily. this is the pebble that starts an avalanche.

[Michaeler]

Part of me wonders if that's Sabine choosing Sunny to be the vessel. Charm Monster is a succubus power and might well make her speech bubbles go funny when in use.

[The MunchKING]

Part of me wonders if that's Sabine choosing Sunny to be the vessel. Charm Monster is a succubus power and might well make her speech bubbles go funny when in use.

The other Demon guy was still just using red on black (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html) for his Charm spells. Likewise V kept her normal mode of speaking for Dominate and Nale for Suggestion.

[Ranadiel]

I kind of doubt that this new person has anything to directly do with the IFCC. "Aren't you the most fascinating little tool?" reads to me like the speaker wasn't expecting to find Sunny here. That doesn't mesh in my mind with an agent of the IFCC.

While we don't know exactly what the IFCC knows about the gates, they only learned about them from Sabine (excluding the possibility of them bluffing her about that for no discernable reason). So they have no reason to have prior knowledge on the location of the gates (e.g., scrying the Scribblers back in ye olden days). We know that the gods have a black out on the info on the rifts, so they shouldn't be able to get it from divinations. Therefore, the only way they should be able to learn the location is through scrying in the present, in which case they would know about Sunny's presence. And I assume if they dispatched any agents, they would have given them a full run down of who to expect.

Now of course this is all based on my reading of intent, so it could be wrong. But I think this is more likely the obligatory "defenses fall apart due to a Scribbler's personality trait" that basically every gate has had. Not 100% sure on what form that could take, but maybe Senri trusted a monster that she shouldn't have trusted who used her as a means to get themselves a kickass lair with zero intention of defending the gate? Ironic twist being past Senri's personality flaw being too trusting when modern Senri basically trusted no one at the beginning of the arc?

[fox1212]

Part of me wonders if that's Sabine choosing Sunny to be the vessel. Charm Monster is a succubus power and might well make her speech bubbles go funny when in use.

Sorry, but can you point me to the strips that talk about this Vessel? I don't recall this from Sabine.

[SlashDash]

Obviously something is going to happen to put everyone off their game - there's no way team evil will walk through all of Serini's traps.
So something is about to blow the place apart.






In general, I'd say IFCC makes the most sense based on the colors since it looks demonic - but -

Why would they do anything? Based on their previous appearances, they said they wanted conflict to continue and the fights to the gates to continue - which is exactly what is happening anyway.
Unless they are worried Serini's defenses actually hold Xykon? Seems weird.


I'm wondering if it is possible this is Hel's next move? If Serini filled up the place with monsters and the god of monsters voted with Hel, maybe he has an agent in this place?


EDIT: I'm going to double down on this. We know that the gods can't talk to mortals about it without them knowing about the gates in advance.

The previous strip with the wounded dragon-thing showed us that Serini clearly told the monsters what they are protecting. So presumably a god can send a follower monster into action. Why now?

Possibly Serini accidently unlocked it? We are constantly being told she doesn't remember how all the traps work.

[SlashDash]

Sorry, but can you point me to the strips that talk about this Vessel? I don't recall this from Sabine.

It was near the end of the last book. The IFCC said that Sabine was on her way with the vessel.

[Provengreil]

huh. I was really expecting a proper party split.

[fox1212]

It was near the end of the last book. The IFCC said that Sabine was on her way with the vessel.

Ah, 1183, then.


Thank you!

[Crusher]

Huh. Never realized floaty eye things aren’t all that hard to charm/dominate. Probably that you’d assume the anti-magic field makes most such attempts moot.

[Metastachydium]

Huh. Back in DCF, the party misplaced Durkon after a walkway sequence by entering a secret bypass. Now, the party has misplaced Sunny during a walkway sequence – by entering a secret bypass.

As for the Vessel thing… Serini explicitly said going across was a bad idea because of the Thing, and many stasis traps simply trigger on proximity. I think Sunny just woke up something Serini put there (before adopting Sunny, so it had no way of recognizing them either assuming it was a willing recruit, I might add).

[Thecommander236]

Well then... That's not ideal.

[Fyraltari]

Anyone else thinks this has "kid accidentally followed someone with the same coat as mom at the supermarket" energy?

Serini explicitly said going across was a bad idea because of the Thing
No? She said this was the room with the thing, and that they were not going across.

[The MunchKING]

As for the Vessel thing… Serini explicitly said going across was a bad idea because of the Thing, and many stasis traps simply trigger on proximity.

I didn't think Ben Grimm spoke like that either. :smalltongue:

[LadyEowyn]

My first thought was that it was an adult Beholder, because the colours of the speech bubble are similar to Sunny’s speech bubbles but nore complex; but the lines of the bubbles are also wavy and Sunny’s aren’t.

Where in the comic have we seen multicoloured (as in, multiple background shades, not just with unusual background and text colours) and/or wavy speech bubbles before?

[Edhelras]

What what what? What faction is this? The IFCC? What are they doing here?

[BriarHobbit]

It does look like Sunny got mesmerized by Issue #1293, but apparently, Serini did not think that he had gone too far down the path. My guess is that a resident monster has broken stasis (somehow) and is loose. I doubt that this is the IFCC's cadre because they don't have an obvious way of getting ahead of the party. If their "monitor V" capabilities are working, they can only see where V has been.

[Tubercular Ox]

Sunny is beholding something.

Now use "beholden".


huh. I was really expecting a proper party split.

Still could be, if V gets called away. And I'd like to point out that the lower left panel makes this the first strip to have everybody present since Urdook (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1284.html).

I think it's an establishing shot. Or a shot that establishes where everyone is, if I'm using that word wrong.



Doesn't Rich have a comment somewhere about swirly eyes, the hiding thereof, and the fight against Greg?

Yes, what's your point?

The obvious, obviously.

[danielxcutter]

I’m betting on either “affiliated with the IFCC” or “monster got out of stasis”.

[Metastachydium]

No? She said this was the room with the thing, and that they were not going across.

Fair. But the point stands: Serini said no going across; said the walkway is for fights; implied there is a Thing (which I suspect is neither a harmless green puddle of water, nor a secret door); and we know many stasis traps are proximity-triggered (or triggered by triggering a proximity-triggered trap).


I didn't think Ben Grimm spoke like that either. :smalltongue:

Come on, this is arctic cold environment! The Things that live here can speak with any voice they manage to acquire! We'ven been through this!

[KorvinStarmast]

First off, Thank You Giant for a very nice end of the calendar year strip. :smallsmile:
I particularly liked how V swatted Belkar with the secret door. That got a grin out of me.
And that explains why Sunny wasn't talking while on the walkway. He was already enthralled. Or entranced.

Anyone more knowledgeable than me know what can charm (or whatever other swirly-eye conditions it may be) a beholder*? I'll check the SRD, since I've got nuthin'. Wait, beholder for 3.5 isn't in the SRD. Doh! EDIT 2:
FWIW, this is what a beholder has for immunities in 5e, which I doubt is the same as 3.5e .
Saving Throws INT +8, WIS +7, CHA +8
Skills Perception +12
Condition Immunities Prone
Senses Darkvision 120 ft., Passive Perception 22


And they must have a pretty sufficient spell level if they can do something like that to a Beholder without being noticed by anyone. Yes. High CR monster expected.

Maybe how the Giant thought to put the three different colour speech bubbles of the IFCC into one, if they’re working together to capture Sunny? That was my first guess, glad to have been corrected ...

Sunny is beholding something.
Dragons can be quite charming, thankyouverymuch. Will check the SRD on that as well, as I've got mostly 5e lore in my brain about dragons.
EDIT: I found this for red dragons in the SRD:

Other Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—suggestion (old or older); 1/day—find the path (ancient or older), discern location (great wyrm).


*I hate to say this but I can think of one character with access to mind-controlling spells who has ties with the IFCC

I'm wondering if it is possible this is Hel's next move? If Serini filled up the place with monsters and the god of monsters voted with Hel, maybe he has an agent in this place? Fenrir?

Possibly Serini accidently unlocked it? We are constantly being told she doesn't remember how all the traps work. And she just told us in this strip as well, in panel 1.

I think Sunny just woke up something Serini put there (before adopting Sunny, so it had no way of recognizing them either assuming it was a willing recruit, I might add). Gonna drop a few centavos betting for this being what's going on.

Serini said no going across; said the walkway is for fights; implied there is a Thing (which I suspect is neither a harmless green puddle of water, nor a secret door); and we know many stasis traps are proximity-triggered (or triggered by triggering a proximity-triggered trap). I am on board this bandwagon.

Other bits to like in the strip:
1. Belkar's opening line.
2. Mr Scruffy standing in the water.
3. The shading and use of color in the last two panels. Really liked that.

[137beth]

Noooo! Sunny fell for a trap!

[Doug Lampert]

Not a lawyer, but from a quick google search: Basically, Beholders are one of the monsters trademarked by Wizard of the Coast. So the official name cannot be used extensively in works without opening itself to legal issues. Hence the various workarounds by using alternative names (Squid-Thingie for the Mind-Flayer, even though Elan used the name Mind-Flayer in the same comic) or actual names like Sunny.
Parody is protected speech, but there are limits to it.

Not an Intellectual Property Lawyer, so the below may be incorrect and is not to be taken as legal advice:

Names can not be copyrighted, and so copyright is totally irrelevant, and copyright is where the parody fair use exception exists. But there is no fair use on trademarks, and Beholders are not in the open game license and are trademarked. People have been successfully sued for obvious parody use of a trademark, because parody doesn't help there.

What helps on trademark is for there to be no possibility of product identity confusion and you are not using their trademark for marketting.

If Rich uses someone else's trademark in a way that makes it completely clear that he's not actually the trademark holder (say by having lawyers who work for a spooky wizard on the coast come in an haul the squid thing off), and it isn't in his advertising/marketting/book covers/whatever and it is not a major plot element, then I suspect that he's pretty well completely safe.

But even there, there's no reason to risk it, because being unsuccessfully sued for trademark infringement would still cost Rich a lot of money.

Tldr: He's not protected on this by parody, but he's probably still safe with the use he's made of the trademark, but if he had a significant character he called a beholder he might well start getting nasty letters from lawyers working for a spooky wizard on the coast, so why risk that?

[gatemansgc]

And that explains why Sunny wasn't talking while on the walkway. He was already enthralled.

quite likely! in the last comic none of his eyes are fully visible so you can't see the spirals!

[Michaeler]

Sorry, but can you point me to the strips that talk about this Vessel? I don't recall this from Sabine.

Sabine had gone to find an appropriate vessel and do something personal. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)

[Emperor Time]

I wonder if this creature could be the last or one of the last of the "at least nine different sides to the conflict of the gates" that the demon roaches had mentioned before back in strip 548. Or have they all been accounted for already?

[KorvinStarmast]

I wonder if this creature could be the last or one of the last of the "at least nine different sides to the conflict of the gates" that the demon roaches had mentioned before back in strip 548. Or have they all been accounted for already? There is a thread on the topic, somewhere.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think it's either a monster that somehow broke free from its stasis trap (remember that the Final Dungeon was built long ago before Serini became part troll, before every monster was a volunteer (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1283.html) so they might be bitter about their capture) or a brand new character affiliated with the IFCC, but if it had to be an established character I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's the ghost of Nale:
-specializes in enchantment (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)
-ghosts can have different kinds of speech balloons (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html) (although this seems to be more like a color-coded thought balloon like V's spell, since the text is in black unlike I think every character with an "unusual" voice besides the quinton)
-has started sentences with "My" before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0794.html) and says "fascinating" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html) (in fact it's one of his first lines in the comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html))
-the type of person to refer to living creatures as tools or pawns (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0341.html)
-dweomer went from a more yellowish (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) to a bright orange (holiday 2023 merch)
-has unfinished business (killing the Order of the Stick and the Vector Legion)
-people have wondered why bring back Eugene; maybe giving him a fellow ghost to fight will play a role
-Sabine was off doing something both personal and business-related during Book 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)
-the room is similar to where he had his first confrontation with the OOTS so it's dramatically appropriate (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html); he's still a Tarquinson whether he likes it or not
-Sunny was bonding specifically with Elan
As for how he would manifest through the multidimensional stone, perhaps he has been haunting the dagger that killed him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html) this whole time.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think it's either a monster that somehow broke free from its stasis trap (remember that the Final Dungeon was built long ago before Serini became part troll, before every monster was a volunteer (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1283.html) so they might be bitter about their capture) or a brand new character affiliated with the IFCC, but if it had to be an established character I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's the ghost of Nale:
-specializes in enchantment (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)
-ghosts can have different kinds of speech balloons (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html) (although this seems to be more like a color-coded thought balloon like V's spell, since the text is in black unlike I think every character with an "unusual" voice besides the quinton)
-has started sentences with "My" before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0794.html) and says "fascinating" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html) (in fact it's one of his first lines in the comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html))
-the type of person to refer to living creatures as tools or pawns (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0341.html)
-dweomer went from a more yellowish (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) to a bright orange (holiday 2023 merch)
-has unfinished business (killing the Order of the Stick and the Vector Legion)
-people have wondered why bring back Eugene; maybe giving him a fellow ghost to fight will play a role
-Sabine was off doing something both personal and business-related during Book 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)
-the room is similar to where he had his first confrontation with the OOTS so it's dramatically appropriate (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html); he's still a Tarquinson whether he likes it or not
-Sunny was bonding specifically with Elan
Your reasoning is sound. (And the bridge/arch thing is a tell, isn't it?)
I am still going with an old (or older) red dragon as my guess.

[The MunchKING]

Sabine had gone to find an appropriate vessel and do something personal. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)

Which given that Sabine has said before is pretty much "Banging anybody in a willing mindset (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html)" suggests to me that the vessel is someone Sabine would be willing to bang. Which admittedly doesn't cross a whole lot off, but "things with a child mentality" and "reproduce asexually" are probably two of the categories.

[Psyren]

I'm on the fence between IFCC making a play and the dungeon's Final Boss Monster having broken free. (If it is the IFCC, how the heck would they have gotten that far in?)

If Serini can have something as nasty* as a Blue Poet in a side room, whatever is actually playing goalie at the gate itself must be truly nightmarish.

*presumably


All these terms being bandied about when what is really going on is quite clear: Sunny is beholding something.

ba dum tsss


Well then... That's not ideal.

eye-deal* :smallbiggrin:

[Somniloquist]

I wonder if it will be a Monster Of The Type That Might Be In The Darkness?

[Tzardok]

I'll do a wild shot and guess that it's either a titan or a super advanced efreet. As for why it's here... Hid in the Dungeon from extraplanar persucators.

[Precure]

I know he (they?) didn't have that kind of speech bubble, but I think it could be Trigak. Multicolor speech bubble might be a key to show multiple heads/minds talking.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm on the fence between IFCC making a play and the dungeon's Final Boss Monster having broken free. (If it is the IFCC, how the heck would they have gotten that far in?) A question I was unable to answer as I thought through this, so I'm going with the monster from pre-troll grafting days.

eye-deal* :smallbiggrin: You probably heard my groan all the way to where you live. :smallcool:

I wonder if it will be a Monster Of The Type That Might Be In The Darkness? Guessing "no" to that one. MitD gets his own reveal. This isn't it.

I'll do a wild shot and guess that it's either a titan or a super advanced efreet. As for why it's here... Hid in the Dungeon from extraplanar persucators.
Hmm, I like your combo there but will go with the latter as a better guess. I don't think Titans would be able to be bound like this ... but I am not an ace on 3.5 MM stuff.

[Tzardok]

Who knows, maybe it's a crossbread: half efreet, half titan. An efran, so to speak. Or a titreet. :smallbiggrin:

[Errorname]

My instinct is the fiends, since they have to make their move sometime, but we've never seen a speech bubble like that and we've seen a lot of fiends.

[Tubercular Ox]

What if it's a mega-golem, like in the DStP bonus content, with everyone's favorite dead villains stitched together into one?

[Iamyourking]

I'll do a wild shot and guess that it's either a titan or a super advanced efreet. As for why it's here... Hid in the Dungeon from extraplanar persucators.

I'm dubious about either of them. For a Titan, this looks more like Dominate Monster than Charm and orange/yellow speech bubbles doesn't seem like what a native of Arborea would use; while Efreeti can't use Wish on themselves and don't have any other SLAs that could duplicate the effect.

[Psyren]

You probably heard my groan all the way to where you live. :smallcool:

❤️


I know he (they?) didn't have that kind of speech bubble, but I think it could be Trigak. Multicolor speech bubble might be a key to show multiple heads/minds talking.

It's never Trigak.


I wonder if it will be a Monster Of The Type That Might Be In The Darkness?

Judging by the speech bubble (not to mention the... charm ability?) I don't think whatever this is, is related to MitD.

[Precure]

It's never Trigak.

Which made it the perfect twist.

[St Fan]

And so I am reminded that V and Belkar have the best chemistry. :smallbiggrin:

"Chemistry", as in the science that's used to make explosives, right?

[GreatWyrmGold]

See, this is what happens when you have too many characters in the party. Sooner or later someone's going to get left behind, and nobody's going to notice until they get mind-controlled and turned into a miniboss fight.

[Rinazina]

Wondering if the opening action of the mind-controlled-Sunny is dispelling a polimorph on a very specific creature, (and then charme it?)

There was such a big investment in the bridge and in the roon, would be a pity don't use it as a background for fighing a T-Rex

[GreatWyrmGold]

Aaaand things have officially gone south, its all off the rails from here, folks. the other shoe has dropped, and the OOTS are going to be pulled into a situation thats going to complicate this whole thing quite messily. this is the pebble that starts an avalanche.
Just another Friday for the Order of the Stick.



Which given that Sabine has said before is pretty much "Banging anybody in a willing mindset (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html)" suggests to me that the vessel is someone Sabine would be willing to bang. Which admittedly doesn't cross a whole lot off, but "things with a child mentality" and "reproduce asexually" are probably two of the categories.
I don't see why reproduction would affect sexuality. Sabine would probably rather sleep with a vampire than a barbazu.



My instinct is the fiends, since they have to make their move sometime, but we've never seen a speech bubble like that and we've seen a lot of fiends.
Have we seen fiends since the most recent art upgrade?

[KorvinStarmast]

Who knows, maybe it's a crossbread: half efreet, half titan. An efran, so to speak. Or a titreet. :smallbiggrin: +10. :smallsmile:

"Chemistry", as in the science that's used to make explosives, right? Quite. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html)


See, this is what happens when you have too many characters in the party. Sooner or later someone's going to get left behind, and nobody's going to notice until they get mind-controlled and turned into a miniboss fight. You refer to Elan, right? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1236.html) :smallcool:

[The MunchKING]

I don't see why reproduction would affect sexuality. Sabine would probably rather sleep with a vampire than a barbazu.

Because "sitting around waiting for it to bud off with spores or something (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1283.html)" is boring?

[Tubercular Ox]

I'm on the fence between IFCC making a play and the dungeon's Final Boss Monster having broken free. (If it is the IFCC, how the heck would they have gotten that far in?)

I'd like to take this seriously for a second. They could've used an invisible Qarr to try to scout out the dungeons and find the "right" one, say at night when Team Evil is resting. They could've been much faster and more efficient than Team Evil was being. So Qarr could've found the inner dungeon. Can he get out again? Then the whole team (whatever they are) can troop through one of the pre-emptied dungeons and get in ahead of the party (and Team Evil).

So the next obstacle is getting into the dungeon without triggering any of this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1288.html). As soon as they go the "wrong" way they can be leaving a trail of dead monsters a corridor wide and I don't think Serini would know.

Is the yellow brick as extradimensional as the rock in the valley? Could they have phased past the first encounter completely?

[Savil]

I doubt it's anything related to IFCC or other villains. Most likely it's a monster with a charm/dominate/confusion aura or gaze. Serini specifically remembered about Sunny when reminded about magic walls that Sunny can see through, so perhaps he glimpsed at something he wasn't supposed to, and it triggered the awakening of the monster, as well as the en-trance.
Maybe even uvuudaum, with its confusion aura, wisdom drain, telepathy and invisibility.

[Riftwolf]

My guess for what the monster is?
Voiced by Tim Curry.

[The MunchKING]

My guess for what the monster is?
Voiced by Tim Curry.

I didn't think Hexxus had mind control powers. Nor that soviet general guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1Sq1Nr58hM).

[stevecharb]

Belkar distracted Serini.

Always trouble, that one.

[goodpeople25]

Because "sitting around waiting for it to bud off with spores or something (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1283.html)" is boring?
Again you seem to be confusing reproductive mechanics for being the same as mechanics that can be used for sex. The lack of desire that could stem from having that reproductive method would be relevant if not for being a child.

[Blue Dragon]

That's an unusual speech bubble - two shades inside it (not counting the text itself) instead of one.

More like a telepathy bubble. What can explain the color.

[hamishspence]

The Order's telepathy bubbles:


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1292.html

were all single-colour for the speech background. That said, the waggly edge to the bubble, rather than it having a smoothly curved edge, is reminiscent of telepathy bubbles.

[Peelee]

But there is no fair use on trademarks
The law offices of Google, Google, and Google disagree. Also, probably trademarked (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html). :smallbiggrin:

why risk that?
Bang on the money regardless of anything else.

eye-deal* :smallbiggrin:
❤️

"Chemistry", as in the science that's used to make explosives, right?
That's chemical engineering.

And civil engineering makes targets. :smallamused:

[Carl]

Random point but based on which way Sunny is facing the effect on him must be an extraordinary ability as whatever's got him is in his anti-magic cone. That restricts the possibilities somthing fierce. Otherwise not immune to much oddly.

[Peelee]

Random point but based on which way Sunny is facing the effect on him must be an extraordinary ability as whatever's got him is in his anti-magic cone. That restricts the possibilities somthing fierce. Otherwise not immune to much oddly.

As per the last time we saw Sunny (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1291.html)'s face , the anti-magic blocking contact lens ewa was in.

[Mic_128]

Have we seen fiends since the most recent art upgrade?

Yuppers

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html


Personally I'm in agreement with those saying it's just a powerful monster that has been released from stasis by Sunny coming near.

Wondering though, are there many/any monsters that could charm or similar just by being looked at?

[Unoriginal]

Wondering though, are there many/any monsters that could charm or similar just by being looked at?

There's plenty of them in D&D in general, plus a bunch of feats, prestige classes and other options to add/improve that in 3.X in particular.


Heck, there are at least two monsters that specialize in mind-controlling Beholders.

[Imbalance]

Something about the threads showing up a few trips ago makes me wonder if the Snarl itself may be reaching out to communicate, but that doesn't seem like something it would say.

[Erzengel]

Names can not be copyrighted, and so copyright is totally irrelevant, and copyright is where the parody fair use exception exists. But there is no fair use on trademarks, and Beholders are not in the open game license and are trademarked. People have been successfully sued for obvious parody use of a trademark, because parody doesn't help there.

Didn't WOTC accidentally make Beholders public earlier this year while scrambling to un-foxtrot themselves after the OGL debacle? I thought I heard that.

[Aquillion]

Didn't WOTC accidentally make Beholders public earlier this year while scrambling to un-foxtrot themselves after the OGL debacle? I thought I heard that.Yes and no. It's complicated.

At least according to this (https://www.geekwire.com/2023/after-fan-outcry-wizards-of-the-coast-will-leave-its-original-open-license-in-place/), Beholders weren't specifically released. I vaguely recall that the OGL included some surprising stuff that had previously been product identity, but Beholders weren't on the list.

However, that's not all there is to it. Copyright law is complicated and not everything that WotC wants to claim as "product identity" can necessarily be copyrighted. In some cases they might try to trademark it but that's also complex. The concept of "product identity" was able to do away with all of this because as long as the OGL was a unique license custom-designed by WotC, they could say "you have the right to use this stuff as long as you don't do X, Y, and Z" and use that to ban you from using Beholders without permission - in that case it doesn't matter whether WotC could win a copyright case over them or not; your ability to use the SRD depended on you respecting WotC's rules.

(Whether you can use D&D's mechanics without the SRD is also a complicated question, because game mechanics themselves can't be copyrighted, but you'd certainly have trouble doing anything commercial without the safe harbor it provided.)

After the SRD debacle, WotC shifted over to Creative Commons. And this means that they no longer get to attach riders or requirements to people's use of the SRDs - you have the rights that Creative Commons grants you and WotC can't add additional rules or threaten to take things back anymore. They can still threaten to sue you if you use a beholder, and if that goes to court (hope you can afford a lot of lawyers!) the result will depend on how much your beholder resembles theirs combined with a bunch of other complicated laws surrounding copyright (eg. OOTS, as has been pointed out in-comic, is clearly a parody, which is exempt), but the designation of "product identity" no longer has the weight or force that it did before.

EDIT: Actually, this (https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2023/01/dd-beholder-strahd-more-may-have-just-become-creative-commons.html) says they may have accidentally released the name "Beholder" under Creative Commons. It'd be complicated to actually argue that that releases more than just the name in the document, though, so you'd probably want to consult a lawyer if you were doing something you know would piss off WotC.

[Psyren]

Didn't WOTC accidentally make Beholders public earlier this year while scrambling to un-foxtrot themselves after the OGL debacle? I thought I heard that.

Ask a lawyer, not here.

The 5.1 SRD that they released to CC includes some terms they've denoted previously as being "product identity", but whether that means what you think it means is not something we can comment on.


Random point but based on which way Sunny is facing the effect on him must be an extraordinary ability as whatever's got him is in his anti-magic cone. That restricts the possibilities somthing fierce. Otherwise not immune to much oddly.

His cone-blocking lens (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1253.html) is still in his eye (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1291.html), so no AMF.

[Mic_128]

Something about the threads showing up a few trips ago makes me wonder if the Snarl itself may be reaching out to communicate, but that doesn't seem like something it would say.

Plus I think that if it was, the speech bubbles would be blues and purples, not reds and oranges.

[Rollin]

I think it's either a monster that somehow broke free from its stasis trap (remember that the Final Dungeon was built long ago before Serini became part troll, before every monster was a volunteer (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1283.html) so they might be bitter about their capture) or a brand new character affiliated with the IFCC, but if it had to be an established character I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's the ghost of Nale:
-specializes in enchantment (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)
-ghosts can have different kinds of speech balloons (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html) (although this seems to be more like a color-coded thought balloon like V's spell, since the text is in black unlike I think every character with an "unusual" voice besides the quinton)
-has started sentences with "My" before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0794.html) and says "fascinating" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html) (in fact it's one of his first lines in the comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html))
-the type of person to refer to living creatures as tools or pawns (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0341.html)
-dweomer went from a more yellowish (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) to a bright orange (holiday 2023 merch)
-has unfinished business (killing the Order of the Stick and the Vector Legion)
-people have wondered why bring back Eugene; maybe giving him a fellow ghost to fight will play a role
-Sabine was off doing something both personal and business-related during Book 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)
-the room is similar to where he had his first confrontation with the OOTS so it's dramatically appropriate (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html); he's still a Tarquinson whether he likes it or not
-Sunny was bonding specifically with Elan


I'm close to being convinced by this, after initial certainty that it was Sabine herself. The voice does seem to gloat in Nale's self-congratulatory mode rather than Sabine's more businesslike one.

[Peelee]

Ask a lawyer, not here.
I'm inordinately amused at the thought of someone booking a consultation with an IP lawyer just to ask this.

His cone-blocking lens (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1253.html) is still in his eye (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1291.html), so no AMF.

Copycat (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25936776&postcount=90). :smalltongue:

[MaverickMopete]

This instantly reads as the fiends' work to me, with that speech bubble. This seems unlikely to be Team Evil for a number of reasons, and I don't feel like we'd get a newcomer villain at this point.

O-Chul: Because why would the number of people trying to kill us stay level when it could increase?

[Windscion]

Starting from the idea that the weird speech balloon suggests telepathy, I looked at the brain-eating squid-thing race and found something: a mindwitness.

From the Forgotten Realms wiki, "Mindwitnesses were flying nightmares of eyes and tentacles created by mind flayers by inserting one of their tadpoles into a beholder."

One that preferably uses telepathy to communicate could explain the speech bubble, and such an origin might explain some attitude toward Sunny. Calling Sunny a tool for being subservient to a lesser creature (Serini) serves to distract from its own abominable origins. The color gradient could be from the union of two monster traits.

[Emmit Svenson]

Serini specifically remembered about Sunny when reminded about magic walls that Sunny can see through, so perhaps he glimpsed at something he wasn't supposed to, and it triggered the awakening of the monster, as well as the en-trance.

I think the important bit from Serini in this strip is that she hadn't adopted Sunny yet when she built this room--combined with her general fuzziness about the contents of these areas, it might mean that Sunny's antimagic eye released something from its Stasis spell. It would have to be one of Serini's earlier acquisitions, before she started using volunteers exclusively, if it is hostile.

The voice controlling Sunny doesn't sound like the fiends to me, especially since with their epic scrying they wouldn't be expressing the kind of surprised delight this voice is. If it is a released monster, I'm guessing some mind-controlling nightmare, like an aboleth.

It couldn't be the Snarl, starting to stir in its weakening bonds, could it? It's always been shown to be fairly mindless. But the one thing we know for sure about the Snarl is that we don't really know what's up with the Snarl...

[WalterTheMighty]

It's not the Vessel - Here's why:

First and foremost, IFCC sponsorship or not, the Vessel would need to bypass all of Serini's other defenses - such as running the gauntlet - and if something or someone were doing that, we would have known a while ago. Oona or someone else on Team Evil would have hinted at it. The Giant doesn't throw haymakers like this without telegraphing them first.

Second, there's two things we can determine from the phrasing: 1 - That they are surprised to see Sunny (Or a beholder, or a beholder in the service of an entity other than itself), and 2 - That they apparently consider servitude to be demeaning, based on the use of the word "tool" as a descriptor. However, coupled with the entrancing, this could also be interpreted as an indication of the entity's intent to make use of Sunny for itself.

Third, whatever this entity is, Serini was expecting it. We know she wouldn't be expecting a fourth faction, i.e the IFCC or one of their pawns, to enter the equation, because she would have mentioned them while arguing with the Order.

[Trixie_One]

I'm in camp this is something new. Also something new, something not at all nice, and something scary.

To be evil is to treat other people as things, to quote Granny Weatherwax, so anyone who gets introduced and there first line is calling a child a tool is someone to be decidedly concerned about.

[danielxcutter]

It's not the Vessel - Here's why:

First and foremost, IFCC sponsorship or not, the Vessel would need to bypass all of Serini's other defenses - such as running the gauntlet - and if something or someone were doing that, we would have known a while ago. Oona or someone else on Team Evil would have hinted at it. The Giant doesn't throw haymakers like this without telegraphing them first.

Second, there's two things we can determine from the phrasing: 1 - That they are surprised to see Sunny (Or a beholder, or a beholder in the service of an entity other than itself), and 2 - That they apparently consider servitude to be demeaning, based on the use of the word "tool" as a descriptor. However, coupled with the entrancing, this could also be interpreted as an indication of the entity's intent to make use of Sunny for itself.

Third, whatever this entity is, Serini was expecting it. We know she wouldn't be expecting a fourth faction, i.e the IFCC or one of their pawns, to enter the equation, because she would have mentioned them while arguing with the Order.

“Without telegraphing” - yeah that basically summarizes the IFCC in a nutshell tbh. Their entire MO and function can be summarized as “complicating the Order’s job out of nowhere” if you ask me.

[brian 333]

I'm not going to analyze why I think The Vessel has nothing to do with what we are seeing.

Thank you, thank you, but if you will hold your applause a moment...

...Thank you.

Others have said what I would, in far fewer words.

I am going out on a limb and betting 'Scary Orange' is a being of Law. Perhaps a powerful creature that is similar to an iron dragon.

[Shining Wrath]

We've discussed the color and shading of the speech bubble, but I want to look at the actual words.


Aren't you just the most fascinating little tool?

First, "tool" means Sunny is useful - either to Serini, or the The Thing at the End of the Walkway (TEW).

Secondly, the entire phrase sounds - pretentious? Arch? I think I'll go with "Patronizing". TEW is accustomed to using other creatures and being the powerful one in the relationship.

Third, "fascinating" means TEW is not familiar with floating eye globes and has to learn about them. If TEW has great experience with said globular viewers of things, it might be gloating, but it wouldn't be fascinated.

I don't think any of the above argues against IFCC, and being accustomed to using other creatures surely fits the diabolical side of the IFCC. But the sentence as a whole doesn't sound like something they would say, to my ear.

[Tubercular Ox]

So if the IFCC took V out right now, how hard would it be to carry V up the ladder again?

For the sake of discussion, let us pretend that everyone is in a tremendous hurry for some reason.

[pendell]

Blast it, Sunny is a friend; it sickens me to see the IFCC take him over like this. I hope we can get him back.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The MunchKING]

So if the IFCC took V out right now, how hard would it be to carry V up the ladder again?

For the sake of discussion, let us pretend that everyone is in a tremendous hurry for some reason.

Not THAT hard. Elves are kind of lightweights, IIRC, and V is a wizard who's NOT sitting around in an ivory tower eating great feasts all day. She's probably the lightest Medium character on the team.

Roy could carry her no problem. I'd have to see the other's lifting feats, but I'm pretty sure most of them could carry her TO the ladder. Going up it is a bit harder. Probably need an Athletics check.

[bunsen_h]

the other shoe has dropped, and the OOTS are going to be pulled into a situation thats going to complicate this whole thing quite messily.

This story has enough droppable shoes to outfit a centipede.


Come on, this is arctic cold environment! The Things that live here can speak with any voice they manage to acquire! We'ven been through this!

Heh. Though that Thing was antarctic.


I'd like to take this seriously for a second. They could've used an invisible Qarr to try to scout out the dungeons and find the "right" one, say at night when Team Evil is resting. They could've been much faster and more efficient than Team Evil was being. So Qarr could've found the inner dungeon. Can he get out again? Then the whole team (whatever they are) can troop through one of the pre-emptied dungeons and get in ahead of the party (and Team Evil).

Even assuming the "plant the tattoo" traps can be triggered by someone flying above them, is a being like Qarr able to be magically tattooed up the butthole?


"Chemistry", as in the science that's used to make explosives, right?


That's chemical engineering.

The science has to invent the explosives before the engineering produces them in bulk. The challenge of scaling up from bench to manufacturing usually has to be met by both disciplines together, and in the case of explosives, is often tricky and may result in a few expensive accidents along the way.


So if the IFCC took V out right now, how hard would it be to carry V up the ladder again?

For the sake of discussion, let us pretend that everyone is in a tremendous hurry for some reason.

On the previous occasion (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html), V's regular Fly spell (or whatever keeps them suspended?) turned off, and their body fell to the ground. So it probably wouldn't just be a matter of towing the levitating body along by the cape. On the other hand, the IFCC's "service" included protecting V's body from all harm, so presumably the Order could just drag them. On the other other hand, the IFCC might interpret that "service" as enabling them to stash the body someplace safe for the duration.

In the old versions of the game that I'm familiar with, carrying ability took into account "encumbrance" rather than just weight. I don't know if that's still the case in 3.5 . Roy's enhanced strength gives him enormous carrying capacity, but the encumbrance factor of V's body would make hauling it around a bigger problem than its mere weight would suggest.

[hamishspence]

Heh. Though that Thing was antarctic.



Yup - in both the 1938 short story and the 1982 movie. The 1951 movie version was found in the Arctic, but it was also not a shapeshifter the way the other two were.

[Tubercular Ox]

Even assuming the "plant the tattoo" traps can be triggered by someone flying above them, is a being like Qarr able to be magically tattooed up the butthole?

It would default to the funniest available body part (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1279.html). The wording on the traps is "walk in" and "walk back out" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1278.html), so Rich could decide Serini is being colloquial and Qarr can get in, or Rich could decide Serini is being literal and he can't.


On the previous occasion (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html), V's regular Fly spell (or whatever keeps them suspended?) turned off, and their body fell to the ground. So it probably wouldn't just be a matter of towing the levitating body along by the cape. On the other hand, the IFCC's "service" included protecting V's body from all harm, so presumably the Order could just drag them. On the other other hand, the IFCC might interpret that "service" as enabling them to stash the body someplace safe for the duration.

In the old versions of the game that I'm familiar with, carrying ability took into account "encumbrance" rather than just weight. I don't know if that's still the case in 3.5 . Roy's enhanced strength gives him enormous carrying capacity, but the encumbrance factor of V's body would make hauling it around a bigger problem than its mere weight would suggest.

You need both hands free to make a climb check, but climb checks start at DC 0 for a knotted rope with a wall to brace against. Ladders are not mentioned. The description of ladders in the PHB doesn't have any rules, they just say it's a ladder. Rich may have to use common sense here. :(

No one I know would try to use a ladder while carrying a person. Ironically, the smaller the person, the more afraid they would be. But none of them are adventurers.

[Resileaf]

I feel that it's a bit premature to outright call this out as being the IFCC's doing when they haven't shown their presence in the area yet.

[gbaji]

It's not the Vessel. It's not the IFCC. It's certainly not Nale's ghost. This is a sealed up dungeon, with stone that blocks teleportation, ethereal travel (specifically blocks ghostform), and is quite locked down in terms of divination. While I suppose it's technically possible that some third party somehow managed to figure out the location and has gotten there ahead of both TE *and* the Order, I find that extremely unlikely both from a "does this make any sense at all?" pov and from a "this kinda defeats the purpose of the race/conflict between TE and the Order" as well.

It's something in the dungeon, stocked here, which you encounter if you go across the walkway (which Sunny has done). Given the color(s) and increased complexity of the lettering, and even the tone/language used, I suspect it's... wait for it... Sunny's spawn-parent. Serini didn't kill it. She imprisoned it. And discovered Sunny spawning, and took him and raised him. Not sure what the aging rate of eye-thingies is though, so the timing might be off.

I expect drama now.

[Psychronia]

That's probably not good.

I doubt it's the IFCC given their stated goals. Best bet is that it's some kind of monster that was kept in here in the past.
I guess it could be Nale's ghost, even if that seems like a weird pull? Eugene made it in here, after all.

Everyone here is talking about a Vessel and I feel like I'm either blanking out on something I should know or simply missed out on some important exposition.

[The MunchKING]

That's probably not good.

I doubt it's the IFCC given their stated goals. Best bet is that it's some kind of monster that was kept in here in the past.
I guess it could be Nale's ghost, even if that seems like a weird pull? Eugene made it in here, after all.

Everyone here is talking about a Vessel and I feel like I'm either blanking out on something I should know or simply missed out on some important exposition.

The IIFC Have a super-powerful artifact they don't know if it will work, and they need a vessel to do something with it. Sabine is supposed to be getting it. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)

[Tubercular Ox]

I feel that it's a bit premature to outright call this out as being the IFCC's doing when they haven't shown their presence in the area yet.

Yes, you're right. I'm sorry if I made it sound like I was too committed to the idea. For me there are two different ways of looking at the problem that frequently coincide, but this time they are recommending opposite things. Gbaji's got the practical part well laid out, but I still would desperately enjoy it if the new thing were related to anything at all that we've seen before. One person suggested that it's related to the Snarl somehow and that would be a relief for me simply because we've heard of the Snarl.

If it really is impossible for anyone we know to get down here, that would be a relief, too, in a way, but I'm not done thinking about it.


Everyone here is talking about a Vessel and I feel like I'm either blanking out on something I should know or simply missed out on some important exposition.

Sabine is fetching a vessel (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) for the IFCC. The same strip mentions an artifact they have. It feels significant that she's mentioned to be mixing business with pleasure at this point.

They refer to V's unoccupied body as a vessel here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html).

There is also a bonus strip in BRitF where Soul Muncher, Tarquin's intelligent greataxe, dominates Belkar, then refers to Belkar as its vessel. Roy strips Belkar of the greataxe and tosses it in a pit.

That's it, really. The idea that Sabine is fetching Thog or Tarquin's body so that an artifact can use it as a vessel in service to the IFCC is just speculation based on how some people want to know what happens next to either of those. And if it furthers Sabine's revenge against Tarquin somehow, even better.

[Anukan]

Maybe a Hive Mother or Overseer? They both have the ability to dominate Beholders.

A hive mother, also known as the ultimate tyrant or just ultimate, was a very rare type of beholder capable of magically dominating other beholders, including death tyrants and gazers.

[Precure]

Correct me if I'm wrong: using "my my" is a feminine way to speak in english, right?

[InvisibleBison]

There is absolutely no reason to think this is, or might be, the Vessel. Leaving aside the fact that there's no evidence the vessel is a person and not a jug or a basket or some such, when last we heard of it Sabine was going to bring the vessel to the directors in whatever Lower Plane they were hanging out in. Speculating that either Sunny or whoever is speaking is the vessel is as reasonable as speculating that the speaker is the Oracle's as-of-yet-unmentioned archmage wife coming to get revenge on Belkar.




Correct me if I'm wrong: using "my my" is a feminine way to speak in english, right?

I've never heard of that phrase having that sort of connotation.

[Thrillhouse]

My money is on this creature being the parent of the Monster in the Darkness.

I am very much against the theory that this is the vessel. Could be, but it seems difficult to fit this in with their plans: the fiends basically want the gods to destroy the world, and I am not sure how this advances that.

Moreover the fiends would presumably already know about Sunny, and would have a definite plan for the vessel that would include or exclude him.

[Tubercular Ox]

Correct me if I'm wrong: using "my my" is a feminine way to speak in english, right?

I did a search on "my," (note comma) in the books. Shojo says it once (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html), Vaarsuvius (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html) twice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html), and (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html) Nale (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0794.html) thrice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html).

I feel like there's enough there to understand how Rich uses it, but I'm not qualified to summarize it with an adjective or anything.


Maybe a Hive Mother or Overseer? They both have the ability to dominate Beholders.

A hive mother, also known as the ultimate tyrant or just ultimate, was a very rare type of beholder capable of magically dominating other beholders, including death tyrants and gazers.

I would like this a lot.

[elecampane]

Is it retroactively weird, that before the room with the "acid" Serini had remembered her defenses perfectly, but as they neared the room with the weird malevolent mind-controlling presence, she suddenly became forgetful? Could she be also affected in some way? Some monsters, such as Elder Brain, can influence creatures from very far away.

Regarding who that is, I think IFCC and other outside actors (except maybe gods) are out of the question, it doesn't mesh well with how insanely this dungeon is protected. So it's something that was here for a while. Maybe its stasis broke due to the threads of creation going out of the wack, or Sunny has crossed the trap's threshold. Maybe it was never properly trapped, but rather for whatever reason decided to squat in the dungeon and bide its time.
All other monsters on this level were rather obscure and powerful. This one sounds like it's very sure of itself, manipulative, dramatic, condescending — and isn't immediately familiar with beholderkin, or it wouldn't call Sunny fascinating. Something like wizard-aboleth or elder brain are possible options, but I think it'll be something more unique; even gods had plainer speech bubbles. Hell, maybe it is Kraagor's soul, changed by the Snarl and spewed out through a thinning fabric of reality — at least the color scheme generally matches.

[Peelee]

Correct me if I'm wrong: using "my my" is a feminine way to speak in english, right?

No. Never heard of that before.

[The MunchKING]

Dudes say it all the time in movies and such.

[danielxcutter]

I’m convinced that this new character probably isn’t with the IFCC, but I wouldn’t put such a feat beyond them either. The pre-Celestia demiplane had enough scrying enhancement for a mid-level wizard to bypass Dorkuan’s magnum opus; the IFCC being able to punch through Serini’s defenses would not exactly come across as a shock. Though if they could, I expect they’d be saving it for the right moment and commit significant forces - it’d probably work once at most.

[Fyraltari]

Correct me if I'm wrong: using "my my" is a feminine way to speak in english, right?

I think it's more associated with (ironic) posh than anything else.

[Velaryon]

I'm intrigued (if not necessarily convinced) by the idea that the new word bubbles could be some sort of undead/possessed/something else going on version of Nale. Him making one more triumphant return to the story would be the nail in the coffin of Tarquin's delusion that he was the main antagonist, since it would confirm once and for all that Nale was more of a central character to the narrative than T himself ever was.

Not touching the copyright/trademark discussion in this thread with a 10-foot pole, as I've been modded in the past for less than what some people, including mods, have already said here.

[Precure]

Is it retroactively weird, that before the room with the "acid" Serini had remembered her defenses perfectly, but as they neared the room with the weird malevolent mind-controlling presence, she suddenly became forgetful? Could she be also affected in some way? Some monsters, such as Elder Brain, can influence creatures from very far away.

I think she took a wrong turn in here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1292.html).

[Shining Wrath]

I think it's more associated with (ironic) posh than anything else.

Yeah, I'm reading that line in an upper-class British accent, head canon.

[Mic_128]

Is it retroactively weird, that before the room with the "acid" Serini had remembered her defenses perfectly, but as they neared the room with the weird malevolent mind-controlling presence, she suddenly became forgetful? Could she be also affected in some way? Some monsters, such as Elder Brain, can influence creatures from very far away.

Nah, I think it's more that she had no issues before, because it was the quickest, most direct path to the gate. Now she's had to take a detour through areas she likely hasn't been through since making the dungeon.

[elecampane]

Nah, I think it's more that she had no issues before, because it was the quickest, most direct path to the gate. Now she's had to take a detour through areas she likely hasn't been through since making the dungeon.

I mean, that's the explanation she'd given in comic, so yeah, that's the default interpretation. But also that's what a mind controlling monster who would like to remain out of memory would like for her to think (it's a conspiracy theory, duh).

[KorvinStarmast]

It's not the Vessel. It's not the IFCC. It's certainly not Nale's ghost. This is a sealed up dungeon, with stone that blocks teleportation, ethereal travel (specifically blocks ghostform), and is quite locked down in terms of divination. While I suppose it's technically possible that some third party somehow managed to figure out the location and has gotten there ahead of both TE *and* the Order, I find that extremely unlikely both from a "does this make any sense at all?" pov and from a "this kinda defeats the purpose of the race/conflict between TE and the Order" as well.

It's something in the dungeon, stocked here, which you encounter if you go across the walkway (which Sunny has done). Why it might be a titan.
Spell-Like Abilities
At will—chain lightning (DC 23), charm monster (DC 21), cure critical wounds (DC 21), fire storm (DC 24), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC 22), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC 22); 3/day—etherealness, word of chaos (DC 22), summon nature’s ally IX; 1/day—gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC 26). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

But how a Titan would be one of the creatures Serini managed to cram into a stasis trap is beyond me, as it seems to be a bit OP to be caught like that. (Then again, with the help of a couple of epic spell casters like Lirian and Dorukan, who knows?)

Correct me if I'm wrong: using "my my" is a feminine way to speak in english, right? Nope, that's not a feminine way to speak in and of itself.

[Tubercular Ox]

Y'know, the Gate is its own backdoor into the dungeon. Xykon used to send goblins "through" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html) Dorukan's, before it was destroyed. It's not necessary for it to be the right kind of "through" to be a part of the plot here, but it's a point to make. I make no claims as to what could use this way in, if anything.


Nope, that's not a feminine way to speak in and of itself.

However, I have gotten credit-hours for listening to people explain that the pressure for women to be polite is much higher than the pressure for men, and a few people above are tagging it as posh.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, that's the explanation she'd given in comic, so yeah, that's the default interpretation. But also that's what a mind controlling monster who would like to remain out of memory would like for her to think (it's a conspiracy theory, duh).

Honestly, Occam's Razor suggests that it really is just Serini being old and also her not remembering every single detail of the traps she laid outside the usual path she took, considering that she made this literal decades ago and hasn't opened it up again since. Which does make this amusingly ironic, given that the first time someone's going through this dungeon it's for completely different reasons than she planned for.

[drazen]

Not THAT hard. Elves are kind of lightweights, IIRC, and V is a wizard who's NOT sitting around in an ivory tower eating great feasts all day. She's probably the lightest Medium character on the team.

Roy could carry her no problem. I'd have to see the other's lifting feats, but I'm pretty sure most of them could carry her TO the ladder. Going up it is a bit harder. Probably need an Athletics check.

Also, Haley has a fly wand. Tap Roy, and presumably he can fly V up no problem.

[bunsen_h]

I'm intrigued (if not necessarily convinced) by the idea that the new word bubbles could be some sort of undead/possessed/something else going on version of Nale. Him making one more triumphant return to the story would be the nail in the coffin of Tarquin's delusion that he was the main antagonist, since it would confirm once and for all that Nale was more of a central character to the narrative than T himself ever was.

There's some similarity to a speech bubble on a bonus page in BRitF, in which Belkar is in the process of being taken over by Soul-Muncher, Tarquin's battleaxe. But that's a single bubble, and once Belkar has been possessed, his speech bubble becomes solid red rather than shaded. This implies that someone who has been completely dominated by an artifact or person would be speaking with the artifact or person's speech-bubble style, rather than with a combination style.

Maybe Tiamat, speaking through several heads simultaneously?

[Precure]

Maybe Tiamat, speaking through several heads simultaneously?

Or Trigak/Trigak's love interest.

[LuPuWei]

Oh boy :smalleek: here comes an eclipse...

[Rollin]

However, I have gotten credit-hours for listening to people explain that the pressure for women to be polite is much higher than the pressure for men, and a few people above are tagging it as posh.

I think of "my, my" as the weakest of the many old ways of avoiding saying "my God!", though, even if that's right, I doubt if anyone consciously uses it with that in mind anymore. Can we say that it still expresses (usually ironically today) a kind of delicacy in the expression of feeling that, in turn, general American culture expects of women while also usually permitting it in men?

[Throknor]

I think of "my, my" as the weakest of the many old ways of avoiding saying "my God!", though, even if that's right, I doubt if anyone consciously uses it with that in mind anymore. Can we say that it still expresses (usually ironically today) a kind of delicacy in the expression of feeling that, in turn, general American culture expects of women while also usually permitting it in men?

At most it is an older colloquialism (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/my_my). I've heard it on '40s and '50s radio shows from both men and women and it is arguably part of the song Once Bitten, Twice Shy by Great White: "My, my, my, I'm once bitten, twice shy, baby". That's just off the top of my head; I'm sure I've heard or read it elsewhere as well. I feel like I've heard "My, my; look what the cat dragged in" on some show or other but looking that up just leads to the Poison album.

[Tubercular Ox]

Also, Haley has a fly wand. Tap Roy, and presumably he can fly V up no problem.

This reminds me that the ladder is a bottleneck even if nothing happens to V. It would take Haley at least four rounds of zapping to get enough people in the air to carry enough other people to put the party back on the walkway. What is the throughput of the ladder, is it long enough that people need spend a round clinging to it while it's someone else's turn, and what will the party think of all that?


I think of "my, my" as the weakest of the many old ways of avoiding saying "my God!", though, even if that's right, I doubt if anyone consciously uses it with that in mind anymore. Can we say that it still expresses (usually ironically today) a kind of delicacy in the expression of feeling that, in turn, general American culture expects of women while also usually permitting it in men?

You have my vote.

[Rollin]

I feel like I've heard "My, my; look what the cat dragged in" on some show or other but looking that up just leads to the Poison album.

I definitely feel like I've heard that too.

[ReaderAt2046]

Now of course this is all based on my reading of intent, so it could be wrong. But I think this is more likely the obligatory "defenses fall apart due to a Scribbler's personality trait" that basically every gate has had. Not 100% sure on what form that could take, but maybe Senri trusted a monster that she shouldn't have trusted who used her as a means to get themselves a kickass lair with zero intention of defending the gate? Ironic twist being past Senri's personality flaw being too trusting when modern Senri basically trusted no one at the beginning of the arc?

I would agree with this, but with a slightly different angle. I think Senri's flaw is more specifically that she trusts the monsters over the heroes, and the way that is backfiring is that, as you said, she trusted a monster that she should not have trusted with the secrets of the Gate, and that monster is now making a play to either seize control of the last gate and hold the planet hostage, or else tear down the final Gate (either because it thinks it has some way of escaping the destruction of the planet or else out of a desire to burn it all down... perhaps a more enlightened Xykon who has realized that nobody can escape death forever and is seeking to unleash the Snarl in order to dodge his eternal punishment by letting his soul be unmade?

[Psyren]

Copycat (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25936776&postcount=90). :smalltongue:

Hey, *I* provided the link to the strip explaining what the lens was :smallbiggrin:

(Also, end-of-page-post-pothole-problems, lel.)


Correct me if I'm wrong: using "my my" is a feminine way to speak in english, right?

It just makes me think of MC Hammer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo).

[LookieLouE1707]

Regarding who that is, I think IFCC and other outside actors (except maybe gods) are out of the question, it doesn't mesh well with how insanely this dungeon is protected. So it's something that was here for a while. Maybe its stasis broke due to the threads of creation going out of the wack, or Sunny has crossed the trap's threshold. Maybe it was never properly trapped, but rather for whatever reason decided to squat in the dungeon and bide its time.
All other monsters on this level were rather obscure and powerful. This one sounds like it's very sure of itself, manipulative, dramatic, condescending — and isn't immediately familiar with beholderkin, or it wouldn't call Sunny fascinating. Something like wizard-aboleth or elder brain are possible options, but I think it'll be something more unique; even gods had plainer speech bubbles. Hell, maybe it is Kraagor's soul, changed by the Snarl and spewed out through a thinning fabric of reality — at least the color scheme generally matches.

I don't think Sunny is "fascinating" because they're a beholder - I they are fascinating because they are a beholder who is a tool, whereas beholders would normally be expected to be the dominant party in any relationship. To someone who didn't know beholderkin Sunny would not be particularly interesting - a naive observer would see only a floating creature with eyes (not that odd for a dungeon) that can be ordered to use telekinesis. Not much more interesting than a flumph.

But for someone who knows what beholders are, Sunny is fascinating, not just for their subservience, but for the nonfunctional antimagic eye. Unremarkable to the naive observer (who doesn't know about antimagic eyes), confusing to the expert - but this observer is smugly knowledgable. That suggests they have been studying Sunny long enough to know about the contact lens.

Also I don't think Sunny triggered something out of stasis. Can't have done so with the antimagic eye (contact lens is in) and if crossing the bridge threshold were enough to do it Serini should have showed more concern in the previous page. And something triggered out of stasis seconds ago would probably not be smugly confident, regardless of personality, just because the situation should be disorienting.

I like the idea that this is Sunny's parent, but this has more of a sibling vibe, not the parental disappointment one might expect. Maybe Serini missed that there was a second baby budding? One that grew up alone in the dungeon while Sunny was adopted? Then we have another good twin/evil twin sibling rivalry, another meditation on the effects of upbringing. And an enemy who knows the dungeon better than Serini does- undermining her core advantage. Or maybe it is the parent and we are to be treated to a round of "who counts as the real parent, the genetic parent or the adoptive one?" when Serini and the villain have their showdown.

Meanwhile the party has to decide whether to fight Xykon or go searching for Sunny, if the villain withdraws into the shadows instead of using Sunny to attack immediately. Which is what I expect - the villain needs to do some expository villain monologuing before the next fight scene.

[Peelee]

It just makes me think of MC Hammer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo).

Oh man that video takes me back. Truly we were as gods.

Bonus MC Hammer: deep in your heart, you knew what this was before you clicked (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrDkZ5UJQxs).

[Ruck]

All these terms being bandied about when what is really going on is quite clear: Sunny is beholding something.

But... But... The strip is called "Entrance."


At most it is an older colloquialism (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/my_my). I've heard it on '40s and '50s radio shows from both men and women and it is arguably part of the song Once Bitten, Twice Shy by Great White: "My, my, my, I'm once bitten, twice shy, baby". That's just off the top of my head; I'm sure I've heard or read it elsewhere as well. I feel like I've heard "My, my; look what the cat dragged in" on some show or other but looking that up just leads to the Poison album.


It just makes me think of MC Hammer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo).

All this talk about musicians and nobody mentioned Neil Young?

[Peelee]

All this talk about musicians and nobody mentioned Neil Young?

A southern man don't need him around anyhow.

[KorvinStarmast]

At most it is an older colloquialism (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/my_my). I've heard it on '40s and '50s radio shows from both men and women and it is arguably part of the song Once Bitten, Twice Shy by Great White: "My, my, my, I'm once bitten, twice shy, baby". I first heard that song - on Ian Hunter's album - in 1975. :smallsmile: Yes, Great White's cover was pretty good. I also agree with you on the colloquialism bit, as I heard it a lot growing up. There were a lot of old 40's and 50's radio show episodes that aired (syndication, I guess) on the stations we listened to...)

Oh man that video takes me back. Truly we were as gods.

Bonus MC Hammer: deep in your heart, you knew what this was before you clicked (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrDkZ5UJQxs). Won't touch that. (As someone who really enjoyed Superfreak as a party song (Rick James) I was initially annoyed at the sampling stuff done to that song. :smallfurious: But in time, it grew on me).

A southern man don't need him around anyhow. +1.

[elecampane]

I don't think Sunny is "fascinating" because they're a beholder - I they are fascinating because they are a beholder who is a tool, whereas beholders would normally be expected to be the dominant party in any relationship. To someone who didn't know beholderkin Sunny would not be particularly interesting - a naive observer would see only a floating creature with eyes (not that odd for a dungeon) that can be ordered to use telekinesis. Not much more interesting than a flumph.

But for someone who knows what beholders are, Sunny is fascinating, not just for their subservience, but for the nonfunctional antimagic eye. Unremarkable to the naive observer (who doesn't know about antimagic eyes), confusing to the expert - but this observer is smugly knowledgable. That suggests they have been studying Sunny long enough to know about the contact lens.

Also I don't think Sunny triggered something out of stasis. Can't have done so with the antimagic eye (contact lens is in) and if crossing the bridge threshold were enough to do it Serini should have showed more concern in the previous page. And something triggered out of stasis seconds ago would probably not be smugly confident, regardless of personality, just because the situation should be disorienting.

I like the idea that this is Sunny's parent, but this has more of a sibling vibe, not the parental disappointment one might expect. Maybe Serini missed that there was a second baby budding? One that grew up alone in the dungeon while Sunny was adopted? Then we have another good twin/evil twin sibling rivalry, another meditation on the effects of upbringing. And an enemy who knows the dungeon better than Serini does- undermining her core advantage. Or maybe it is the parent and we are to be treated to a round of "who counts as the real parent, the genetic parent or the adoptive one?" when Serini and the villain have their showdown.

Meanwhile the party has to decide whether to fight Xykon or go searching for Sunny, if the villain withdraws into the shadows instead of using Sunny to attack immediately. Which is what I expect - the villain needs to do some expository villain monologuing before the next fight scene.

I read "fascinating little tool" as in "tool for me to use for my purposes now that I'm controlling you", not "someone who others treat as a tool". That's another reason that I find "this is another beholderkin theory" ill-fitting: stronger beholder would have little use for a weaker one; and beholders hate other beholders anyways, the more unlike themselves they are, the stronger the hate (Source: "Lords of madness", p.47)

[Tubercular Ox]

I read "fascinating little tool" as in "tool for me to use for my purposes now that I'm controlling you", not "someone who others treat as a tool". That's another reason that I find "this is another beholderkin theory" ill-fitting: stronger beholder would have little use for a weaker one; and beholders hate other beholders anyways, the more unlike themselves they are, the stronger the hate (Source: "Lords of madness", p.47)

Their Organization is Solitary, Pair,or Cluster (3-6), and both Hive Mothers and Overseers got printed.

Hive Mothers sometimes come in Cities: 1 hive mother plus 1-3 overseers plus 10-20 beholders plus 3-10 directors and 20-40 slaves, usually bugbears, gnolls, ogres, or minotaurs. Source: Lords of Madness, p. 136

I'm not sure it's actually a beholderkin, but I do like the idea of a colony of something making the dungeon more than just what Serini set up.

[Crusher]

I read "fascinating little tool" as in "tool for me to use for my purposes now that I'm controlling you", not "someone who others treat as a tool". That's another reason that I find "this is another beholderkin theory" ill-fitting: stronger beholder would have little use for a weaker one; and beholders hate other beholders anyways, the more unlike themselves they are, the stronger the hate (Source: "Lords of madness", p.47)

Plus, a beholder wouldn't find another beholder "fascinating". At best, it'd be "Great. An expendable way of doing things I can already do". Since beholders apparently have childhoods in the Stickverse, Sunny may not be fully grown so another beholder might view them as "little" but it still doesn't really make sense.

Only thought I have is that since the voice calls Sunny "little" its presumably bigger. I think Beholders generally Large, so it should probably be at least on the bigger side of Large and more likely Huge (or bigger). Again, Sunny may not be fully grown but the creature behind the voice is probably at least Large.

[Riftwolf]

Whatever the Monster Voiced by Tim Curry is, it most likely is something affected by both acid and gravity. Unless Serinis logic about the fake acid pit was totally made up on the spot.
Beholders aren't easily affected by gravity based attacks due to innate floatiness. Many demons are resistant or immune to acid.
However due to the presence of Blue Poets and Unvisible Horrors I'm guessing it'll be something cool and unstatted like a Charming Prince or a Sight-for-Sore-Eyes, something that swirly-eyed Sunny just by looking at it.

[Crusher]

Whatever the Monster Voiced by Tim Curry is...

I'm guessing it'll be something cool and unstatted like a Charming Prince or a Sight-for-Sore-Eyes, something that swirly-eyed Sunny just by looking at it.

Ok, I'm sold. Its Frank-N-Furter, who was pretty mesmerizing and spoke exactly like that.

Edit - We'll have to keep an eye out for the voice offering to get someone a mechanic from the ventral planes.

[Somniloquist]

I'm sold on this creature having Tim Curry's voice. That's official until proven otherwise.


I would agree with this, but with a slightly different angle. I think Senri's flaw is more specifically that she trusts the monsters over the heroes, and the way that is backfiring is that, as you said, she trusted a monster that she should not have trusted with the secrets of the Gate, and that monster is now making a play to either seize control of the last gate and hold the planet hostage, or else tear down the final Gate (either because it thinks it has some way of escaping the destruction of the planet or else out of a desire to burn it all down... perhaps a more enlightened Xykon who has realized that nobody can escape death forever and is seeking to unleash the Snarl in order to dodge his eternal punishment by letting his soul be unmade?
With multiple characters in this comic having reason to fear the great fire below, someone has got to bring this possibility up, if only for Xykon, Redcloak, Belkar, and/or Vaarsuvius to react to it. (I see them all reacting in very different ways.)

[Tubercular Ox]

something cool and unstatted like a Charming Prince or a Sight-for-Sore-Eyes, something that swirly-eyed Sunny just by looking at it.

I wouldn't like this because Rich has two decades buried in this D&D Parody thing and if nothing else all that practice probably means a statted monster would come off better than an unstatted one.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm sold on this creature having Tim Curry's voice. That's official until proven otherwise.


(either because it thinks it has some way of escaping the destruction of the planet or else out of a desire to burn it all down...
With multiple characters in this comic having reason to fear the great fire below, someone has got to bring this possibility up, if only for Xykon, Redcloak, Belkar, and/or Vaarsuvius to react to it. (I see them all reacting in very different ways.) What if it's Trogdor, or a very close approximation thereof?

I wouldn't like this because Rich has two decades buried in this D&D Parody thing and if nothing else all that practice probably means a statted monster would come off better than an unstatted one. That does argue against Trodgor, and I think you are right about that.

[Doug Lampert]

A southern man don't need him around anyhow.
+1.

+2

Characters added to add character.

[bunsen_h]

All this talk about musicians and nobody mentioned Neil Young?

What about (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za5KomildWU) ABBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj_9CiNkkn4)?

[Peelee]

What about (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za5KomildWU) ABBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj_9CiNkkn4)?

ABBA is one of the greatest bands ever and i will die on this hill.

[WanderingMist]

My guess for what the monster is?
Voiced by Tim Curry.
I think Samuel Ramey is a better fit. To anyone who's seen Over the Garden Wall, he's the voice of the Beast.


Correct me if I'm wrong: using "my my" is a feminine way to speak in english, right?

I associate it more with villainy than with femininity.

[Imbalance]

Occasionally an expression of surprise, "my my" seems more often to be interchangeable with "well well," and not inherently feminine. I think this holds true regardless of quantity, from the condescending three count: "well well well" (usually followed by "what do we have here?") to the range of meanings conveyed by as many as five at a time: "my my my my my" - a bouquet of disguised speechlessness with notes of astonishment, judgment, and arousing intrigue. There may also be use cases where these phrases might supplant "tsk tsk" with subtly less authoritative undertones.

The case in question, however, puts me in mind of instances when I found a really big nightcrawler on my way to the fish pond.

[No good @ names]

(If it is the IFCC, how the heck would they have gotten that far in?)


It's not the Vessel - Here's why:

First and foremost, IFCC sponsorship or not, the Vessel would need to bypass all of Serini's other defenses - such as running the gauntlet - and if something or someone were doing that, we would have known a while ago. Oona or someone else on Team Evil would have hinted at it. The Giant doesn't throw haymakers like this without telegraphing them

I would say the author has done so in the past and will continue to do so wherever it makes a good story, even if it did break some D&D rules.


“Without telegraphing” - yeah that basically summarizes the IFCC in a nutshell tbh. Their entire MO and function can be summarized as “complicating the Order’s job out of nowhere” if you ask me.

Exactly. I can’t be sure it is the IFCC, but everything we’ve seen about them indicates to me that if they wanted to bypass some mortal halflings little traps they could.


I feel that it's a bit premature to outright call this out as being the IFCC's doing when they haven't shown their presence in the area yet.

Again I think danielxcutter nailed it.


I’m convinced that this new character probably isn’t with the IFCC, but I wouldn’t put such a feat beyond them either. The pre-Celestia demiplane had enough scrying enhancement for a mid-level wizard to bypass Dorkuan’s magnum opus; the IFCC being able to punch through Serini’s defenses would not exactly come across as a shock. Though if they could, I expect they’d be saving it for the right moment

+1
Director Lee sets the traps and Director Cedrik springs them when the time is right.


Or Trigak/Trigak's love interest.

Stop trying to make Trigak happen! It’s not going to happen!


But I think this is more likely the obligatory "defenses fall apart due to a Scribbler's personality trait" that basically every gate has had.

Serini’s final defence has already failed - it was “call my epic-level friends for help”

Her personality trait was that she hoped that her friends would be there for her if she needed it.


O-Chul: Because why would the number of people trying to kill us stay level when it could increase?

Heh

[Doug Lampert]

Stop trying to make Trigak happen! It’s not going to happen!

Trigak had a NAME, he was in the middle of swearing to get them and their little dog too! He got dramatic musical cues.

It's going to happen! It's just a matter of time (and possibly fanfiction).

[Ruck]

What about (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za5KomildWU) ABBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj_9CiNkkn4)?

I like ABBA well enough, but I still prefer "Hey Hey, My My" to either of those particular tunes.


I associate it more with villainy than with femininity.

Same.

[brian 333]

I like ABBA well enough, but I still prefer "Hey Hey, My My" to either of those particular tunes.



Same.

My, my, my. Once bitten, twice shy, babe? (once bitten twice shy)

[Albion]

Just popping in to say I loved how V went with the more than usual Belkar. Straight to the point. CLICK.

[Ruck]

My, my, my. Once bitten, twice shy, babe? (once bitten twice shy)

I think we already covered that:


At most it is an older colloquialism (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/my_my). I've heard it on '40s and '50s radio shows from both men and women and it is arguably part of the song Once Bitten, Twice Shy by Great White: "My, my, my, I'm once bitten, twice shy, baby". That's just off the top of my head; I'm sure I've heard or read it elsewhere as well. I feel like I've heard "My, my; look what the cat dragged in" on some show or other but looking that up just leads to the Poison album.

(also, the copy editor in me must note that song titles belong in quotes; album titles belong in italics.)

[elecampane]

I associate it more with villainy than with femininity.
I associate it with being generally dramatic, and although thoughts about "effeminate" and "dramatic" also raise up, I think for me they come from all the queer-coded Disney villains (Jafar, Scar, etc), who were drama queens

[bunsen_h]

I read "fascinating little tool" as in "tool for me to use for my purposes now that I'm controlling you", not "someone who others treat as a tool".

I noted the phrase as ambiguous when I first read the page. I don't have a strong feeling either way; it's a wait-and-see thing for me.


I associate it with being generally dramatic, and although thoughts about "effeminate" and "dramatic" also raise up, I think for me they come from all the queer-coded Disney villains (Jafar, Scar, etc), who were drama queens

See also: George Takei's iconic "oh, my!" Definitely queer, rather dramatic, not at all effeminate.

[SlashDash]

Huh. Never realized floaty eye things aren’t all that hard to charm/dominate. Probably that you’d assume the anti-magic field makes most such attempts moot.
Dwarves usually have high resistances and in particular clerics have high wisdoms.
Hilga still lost her save vs the vampires.

No matter how good you are, you can always roll a 1.



So if the IFCC took V out right now, how hard would it be to carry V up the ladder again?

For the sake of discussion, let us pretend that everyone is in a tremendous hurry for some reason.
I can't look it up now, but correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Haley previously picked V up? After the encounter with Xykon in the first dungeon when they were paralyzed and they had that joke (Grunt once for minor items, twice for major)?

Either way even if she can't, Roy sure as heck can as Belkar noted he is as strong as a giant.

Haley has the magical wands of flight she took from Z so none of this should be a problem at all.

[gatorized]

So which creatures have access to mind-control effects that would function within the beholder's anti-magic cone, which is currently facing them at least as far as we can tell?

[Rollin]

So which creatures have access to mind-control effects that would function within the beholder's anti-magic cone, which is currently facing them at least as far as we can tell?
For what it's worth, the last time (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1288.html) we saw their main eye, Sunny was wearing the protective lens that suppresses the anti-magic effect (red means go (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1253.html)). The swirly eye of course replaces the red or green color, but since neither the cone nor a discarded lens is shown in this comic, I think we're expected to assume it's still on and working.

Of course, your question remains pertinent, as Sunny can remove the lens anytime. I just thought I'd answer a question I knew the answer to, instead of the one you asked.

[runeghost]

I think it's either a monster that somehow broke free from its stasis trap (remember that the Final Dungeon was built long ago before Serini became part troll, before every monster was a volunteer (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1283.html) so they might be bitter about their capture) or a brand new character affiliated with the IFCC, but if it had to be an established character I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's the ghost of Nale:
-specializes in enchantment (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)
-ghosts can have different kinds of speech balloons (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html) (although this seems to be more like a color-coded thought balloon like V's spell, since the text is in black unlike I think every character with an "unusual" voice besides the quinton)
-has started sentences with "My" before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0794.html) and says "fascinating" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html) (in fact it's one of his first lines in the comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html))
-the type of person to refer to living creatures as tools or pawns (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0341.html)
-dweomer went from a more yellowish (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) to a bright orange (holiday 2023 merch)
-has unfinished business (killing the Order of the Stick and the Vector Legion)
-people have wondered why bring back Eugene; maybe giving him a fellow ghost to fight will play a role
-Sabine was off doing something both personal and business-related during Book 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)
-the room is similar to where he had his first confrontation with the OOTS so it's dramatically appropriate (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html); he's still a Tarquinson whether he likes it or not
-Sunny was bonding specifically with Elan


This is very nicely reasoned, and I expect you're on the right track, but... I don't think just Nale or the ghost of Nale is enough to be a player on the necessary power level here. Combined with some of the IFCC's comments the last time we saw them, I think we're going to be looking at the spirit/ghost of Nale, possibly combined with several of the Order's past foes (the three souls bound to V are a big hint here), animating a high-powered something the IFCC have put together. I.e something along the lines of:

Julia's body (random but significant person to the story)
Possessed by Nale (and others)
Wearing or wielding some fiendish "magical Ironman-type armor/device"

[No good @ names]

I am still going with an old (or older) red dragon as my guess.

Because Sunny drew one after seeing it in the dungeon?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1257.html

[Thrillhouse]

An ominous thought as to how far this thing might have already compromised the dungeon:

Serini said the green water was so that parties would waste a spell and not have a hazard to push “the monsters” into. That strongly implies that multiple monsters were supposed to drop on the party as they crossed the super-dramatic walkway.

Sunny floated all the way across the walkway and triggered nothing.

That strongly suggests that whatever is in that room isn’t just dominating Sunny, but a small army of other monsters as well.

[Tubercular Ox]

An ominous thought as to how far this thing might have already compromised the dungeon:

Serini said the green water was so that parties would waste a spell and not have a hazard to push “the monsters” into. That strongly implies that multiple monsters were supposed to drop on the party as they crossed the super-dramatic walkway.

Sunny floated all the way across the walkway and triggered nothing.

That strongly suggests that whatever is in that room isn’t just dominating Sunny, but a small army of other monsters as well.

Or the fact that Sunny floats makes tripping traps more difficult.

Or maybe whatever is in that room cleared out other monsters to make more room for itself and its friends.

[KorvinStarmast]

Because Sunny drew one after seeing it in the dungeon?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1257.html
Not why I said that, but nice catch. :smallsmile:

For what it's worth:
I think that red dragons could use better representation in this strip / graphic novel than the morbidly obese example from BRitF, but that in no way obliges Rich to feel that way.

[brian 333]

Not why I said that, but nice catch. :smallsmile:

For what it's worth:
I think that red dragons could use better representation in this strip / graphic novel than the morbidly obese example from BRitF, but that in no way obliges Rich to feel that way.

Red dragons are overrated. I want a chartreuse and salmon paisley dragon. You don't see a lot of those.

[Adeptus]

Red to Orange to Yellow gradient to me suggests Fire. Maybe a Fire Elemental or some kind of Fire God?

Which would be Loki, I think.

[Somniloquist]

Red dragons are overrated. I want a chartreuse and salmon paisley dragon. You don't see a lot of those.

Imagine the speech bubbles that would have.

[Ranadiel]

So I was thinking about possibilities for the monster, and the "obvious" answer hit me. It is the Indescribable Horror from 1289. It is supposed to still be in stasis, but none of the characters (excluding animals) were actually able to check it since that would require looking at it. So we've currently got setup for it being in the dungeon and that looking at it is bad, but are lacking confirmation that it is sealed beyond Senri saying that it is "stiff as a triple gin" while looking in a different direction.

And a detail that I just noticed unrelated to my above thought, Sunny's eye swirl is the same gradient as the text box. Looking back when the vampire dwarves used the domination gaze, the eye swirls were pure red, which is the same color as the vampire eyes. Meanwhile, when Sunny used Charm and Fear, the eye swirls were orange aka the same color as both Sunny and the eye beams themselves. Going further back to the old art style, when Tsukiko dominates Thanh his eyes match her heterochromia eyes. So I guess what I am saying is that whatever the enemy is, it probably has the gradient color as part of its body (eyes or otherwise) in addition to it being the color of its speech balloon.

Hmm, that actually leads to a fun crack-pot theory, could it be a two-quiddity creation between a Northern God (yellow) and a Western God (red)? All the instances I could quickly find of a god speaking had textboxes the same color as their quiddity. Mortals with three quiddities have "normal" text boxes, but a two-quiddity creation could fall somewhere between those two types of text boxes resulting in the gradient. I dunno it is just a random thought.

[Lexible]

I want a chartreuse and salmon paisley dragon. You don't see a lot of those.

You do if you attend the right parties. :smallwink::smallcool::smallsmile:

[Crusher]

Because Sunny drew one after seeing it in the dungeon?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1257.html

Worth noting, Sunny also has a picture of the Snarl though it feels more like a depiction of the crayon version probably described by Serini than what we at least think the actual one looks like.

[brian 333]

Worth noting, Sunny also has a picture of the Snarl though it feels more like a depiction of the crayon version probably described by Serini than what we at least think the actual one looks like.

The picture of the red dragon also has Kraagor beside Serinni.

[Gift Jeraff]

Because Sunny drew one after seeing it in the dungeon?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1257.html


The picture of the red dragon also has Kraagor beside Serinni.

The Order of the Scribble is shown fighting a red dragon in the 2015 calendar so the drawing could just be based on Serini's stories.

[remetagross]

So I was thinking about possibilities for the monster, and the "obvious" answer hit me. It is the Indescribable Horror from 1289. It is supposed to still be in stasis, but none of the characters (excluding animals) were actually able to check it since that would require looking at it. So we've currently got setup for it being in the dungeon and that looking at it is bad, but are lacking confirmation that it is sealed beyond Senri saying that it is "stiff as a triple gin" while looking in a different direction.

And a detail that I just noticed unrelated to my above thought, Sunny's eye swirl is the same gradient as the text box. Looking back when the vampire dwarves used the domination gaze, the eye swirls were pure red, which is the same color as the vampire eyes. Meanwhile, when Sunny used Charm and Fear, the eye swirls were orange aka the same color as both Sunny and the eye beams themselves. Going further back to the old art style, when Tsukiko dominates Thanh his eyes match her heterochromia eyes. So I guess what I am saying is that whatever the enemy is, it probably has the gradient color as part of its body (eyes or otherwise) in addition to it being the color of its speech balloon.

Hmm, that actually leads to a fun crack-pot theory, could it be a two-quiddity creation between a Northern God (yellow) and a Western God (red)? All the instances I could quickly find of a god speaking had textboxes the same color as their quiddity. Mortals with three quiddities have "normal" text boxes, but a two-quiddity creation could fall somewhere between those two types of text boxes resulting in the gradient. I dunno it is just a random thought.

I'm liking this possibility a lot.

[bunsen_h]

Hmm, that actually leads to a fun crack-pot theory, could it be a two-quiddity creation between a Northern God (yellow) and a Western God (red)? All the instances I could quickly find of a god speaking had textboxes the same color as their quiddity. Mortals with three quiddities have "normal" text boxes, but a two-quiddity creation could fall somewhere between those two types of text boxes resulting in the gradient. I dunno it is just a random thought.

A four-colour manifestation of discord is called a Snarl. Would a two-colour discord-being be a Sneer? A Mutter?

[Peelee]

A four-colour manifestation of discord is called a Snarl. Would a two-colour discord-being be a Sneer? A Mutter?

A snag. 3 is a tangle.

[brian 333]

A snag. 3 is a tangle.

I thought a snag was a snake that finds fault with its significant other.

[Tzardok]

What could a snake find fault for? Snacking too much?

[gbaji]

Because Sunny drew one after seeing it in the dungeon?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1257.html

Except that, according to Serini, this dungeon was completed and sealed up before Sunny came around. So, if there is a dragon in here, Sunny should not have ever had the opportunity to see it. That's not to say that Serni didn't describe it to Sunny (and that could be what the drawing is about).

So yeah. Possible. I mean, the picture is basically Chekov's dragon, right?

[Lumus]

A snag. 3 is a tangle.

That pretty much settles it, then. There's no way they're getting through this whole dungeon without hitting a single snag.

[Lumix19]

As much as I don't think it's Nale (given how exhausted he is narratively speaking and how final his last appearance was) I kinda love the idea that it might be.

Maybe that was Sabine's personal business: bargaining with the Archfiends to have Nale promoted to a devil or something and now he's back with a whole heap of new powers and a score to settle.

Absolute crack theory though. I'll throw my chips into the "it's just a creature that Serini forgot about" pot.

[Unoriginal]

A snag. 3 is a tangle.

Are you sure? I've always heard it took two to tangle.

[danielxcutter]

Are you sure? I've always heard it took two to tangle.
pretty sure you already know but
Tango, not tangle.

[brian 333]

pretty sure you already know but
Tango, not tangle.

There was no Tango in Tangled. (Though that could have been a great scene if properly animated, the end result being her dance partner being bound up like a hair-mummy.)

[Peelee]

pretty sure you already know but
Tango, not tangle.

https://media.tenor.com/1PlOazHibx4AAAAM/simpsons-joke.gif

[LuckyTheOrc]

So I was thinking about possibilities for the monster, and the "obvious" answer hit me. It is the Indescribable Horror from 1289. It is supposed to still be in stasis, but none of the characters (excluding animals) were actually able to check it since that would require looking at it. So we've currently got setup for it being in the dungeon and that looking at it is bad, but are lacking confirmation that it is sealed beyond Senri saying that it is "stiff as a triple gin" while looking in a different direction.



I love it, and I hope you're right. I really want it to be something that ties into an established element instead of some random dungeon monster, and having the indescribable horror escape would be a way to get that callback without getting to the weird issues that some existing outside force beating them to the depths of the dungeon would do.

I wish I could could hope that it's Nale, because that would be so frustratingly in-character for him, but I can't because his death being as final as possible plays so well into other plot threads.

[brian 333]

But...

How would one draw the indescribable horror, when the very act of doing so would render it describable?

Unless...

The entire combat sequence is drawn in such a way as to never depict the opponent, but show The Order fighting something just off panel, around a corner, inside a doorway, etc.

In which case, only Belkar, Mimi, and the animals, (minus Blackwing, because he would certainly try to describe it,) would be in the fight.

[bunsen_h]

But...

How would one draw the indescribable horror, when the very act of doing so would render it describable?

Unless...

The entire combat sequence is drawn in such a way as to never depict the opponent, but show The Order fighting something just off panel, around a corner, inside a doorway, etc.

In which case, only Belkar, Mimi, and the animals, (minus Blackwing, because he would certainly try to describe it,) would be in the fight.

That might work. With bits of the creature being shown on-page a couple of times, each time completely different in nature. Some kind of claw, a corner of an irregular polyhedron, a dotted outline that causes the background to disappear but nothing visible drawn in its place. Or, for that matter, one could show an irregular "object" with nothing depicted, no outline, but whatever's behind it would be blanked out.

[KorvinStarmast]

Calder is a lean, mean, fire breathing machine.
Red dragon representation improvement is noted. :smallsmile:

[Riftwolf]

So my prediction was right!
I'm reading Calder in full Tim Curry voice

[Peelee]

I'm reading Calder in full Tim Curry voice

That doesn't narrow it down, you know.

[brian 333]

All dragons speak like Benedict Cumberba... Cucumber... Comehitheritch... You know the guy. Like him.

[KorvinStarmast]

All dragons speak like Benedict Cumber - No they don't. :smalltongue:

[Provengreil]

All dragons speak like Benedict Cumberba... Cucumber... Comehitheritch... You know the guy. Like him.

I swear you could call that man Flumbydum Bendywrench and people would still know who you're talking about.

[brian 333]

I swear you could call that man Flumbydum Bendywrench and people would still know who you're talking about.

Done and done.

Note: Flumbydum Bendywrench is now the name of my next tinker gnome character.

[F.Harr]

Oh, no! Sunny!

Belkar no doubt felt a lot better.

This is interesting.