Will somebody arrive mid-fight to seize The Gate?

[Blue Dragon]

After all the trouble Team Order and Team Evil had will some group of antagonists try to "seize it from them at the last minute"? I confess that I was thinking about this between the last strip and this one, but I am not much of a speculator myself. That said, it looks like a fair possibility now.

That said, I ask you:

Which group of antagonists is the least likely to appear, if any?

[Tzardok]

Samantha, the Bandit Queen, supported by that shadow dancer and his explosive dwarf companion.

[No good @ names]

Probably either of Laser-Snail’s or Milk-Dudes’ parties.

[Tzardok]

There's the one surviving dwarf vampire.

Wait! The single least likely antagonist to appear is the Heavily Templated Snail from the Dragon Magazine timeline.

[Blue Dragon]

Samantha, the Bandit Queen, supported by that shadow dancer and his explosive dwarf companion.

They are all dead, they don't count. I am talking about currently active villains.

[The MunchKING]

That said, I ask you:

Which group of antagonists is the least likely to appear, if any?

Redcloak's Niece, working with a Half-Celestial Hailey's Mom, Guy With a Halberd, and an Eastern-undead Miko.

[Tzardok]

They are all dead, they don't count. I am talking about currently active villains.

A) You wanted least likely, I gave you least likely. B) The shadowdancer and his companion aren't dead. They escaped through a shadow. To where, if there are no other shadows? No one can say. That's what makes them unlikely.

[hamishspence]

They've been seen once since the Inn sequence.



They were once again preparing to assassinate the King of Nowhere, around about the time of the battle of Azure City, but Thanh, who was away on a diplomatic mission before returning to Azure City after the battle, was present, so they decided against it.


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0535.html

[Blue Dragon]

Redcloak's Niece, working with a Half-Celestial Hailey's Mom, Guy With a Halberd, and an Eastern-undead Miko.

Except by Miko, that went to the afterlife, none of those was portraited as an antagonist.


They've been seen once since the Inn sequence.



They were once again preparing to assassinate the King of Nowhere, around about the time of the battle of Azure City, but Thanh, who was away on a diplomatic mission before returning to Azure City after the battle, was present, so they decided against it.


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0535.html

True, I forgot that! My bad.


Probably either of Laser-Snail’s or Milk-Dudes’ parties.

They are from long-gone worlds, they don't exist anymore.


There's the one surviving dwarf vampire.

Hum, Hel certainly didn't give up with her plan.

[Kish]

:xykon: "What's this about being dead meaning someone can't be dangerous?"

[Precure]

Kubota, true resurrected by his household.

[Somniloquist]

Least likely of the not-dead antagonists? Pompey and Leeky, neither of whom would have felt any obligation to invite Nale even if he weren't dead.

[Peelee]

Kubota, true resurrected by his household.

Apropos of absolutely nothing but I love how this sounds like Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

[brian 333]

The Fellowship of the Ming. (Who knew those things were so hard to break?)

Frudo and Dim Sam we've seen, but Imagorn, Breakalegolas, and Gimpi are presumably still off at Helmet Hole dealing with Scaryman's d'Orks

[ZhonLord]

That said, I ask you:

Which group of antagonists is the least likely to appear, if any?

The bandit leader and his sorceress daughter (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html), one of which can be given a bog-standard Raise Dead, and the other can get a regular Resurrection. They put aside their differences, learned about the Gates after hearing what happened to Azure City, and the daughter decided she deserves that power because of how awesome and sexy she is. Plus this sub-boss Zyklon fellow is a sorcerer too, who better to prove her magical superiority against?

[faustin]

Well, Leeky and Pompey are still around doing evil, and at least the former is a middle-high level druid.

Maybe both of them will be lured into the fight through the interdimensional wormhole commonly known as "plothole".

[RatElemental]

Jirix.

The forum won't let me just post that, though, so I'll say it again. Jirix.

[Mic_128]

Jirix.

The forum won't let me just post that, though, so I'll say it again. Jirix.

Sent by The Dark One himself, with a message for Redcloak: "You ass, I heard what that Dwarf was saying! Screw the skeleton and help em!"

[faustin]

I wonder if at this point, even a direct command of the Dark One will be enough to make Redcloak desist the Plan.

[wilphe]

That TDO has never directly communicated or interacted with RedCloak is probably going to be significant at some point.

RC would likely rationalise it away as a trick or deception if he tried

[Errorname]

I wonder if at this point, even a direct command of the Dark One will be enough to make Redcloak desist the Plan.

Probably not, just because if Redcloak ditches the plan it ought to be his own decision, not one his god is making for him.

I've been assuming for a while that Gobbotopia's going to get devoured by the Snarl. Redcloak left the city he built with a looming sword of damocles hanging overhead to pursue his scheme, that should probably have consequences for him.

[Fish]

Probably the flumphs, hell-bent on revenge for all of the falling damage they've absorbed. They have turned to the dark side and are out for revenge.

[Metastachydium]

Probably the flumphs, hell-bent on revenge for all of the falling damage they've absorbed. They have turned to the dark side and are out for revenge.

Well, they are coming (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1090.html)!!

[KorvinStarmast]

I've been assuming for a while that Gobbotopia's going to get devoured by the Snarl. Redcloak left the city he built with a looming sword of damocles hanging overhead to pursue his scheme, that should probably have consequences for him. While that would be a neat ending, and would likely force the Azurites to setting into their new homeland for good, I also like the idea of the more charismatic Jirix (whom the Darke One has spoken to) being the better choice to lead Gobbotopia into a new future. It like: it takes one kind of person to win a war, but it takes another kind of person, usually, to run/govern a country.
(The history of the Bolivarian revolutions carries that as a part of its message ...)

[No good @ names]

They are from long-gone worlds, they don't exist anymore.

See below for accurate summation


A) You wanted least likely, I gave you least likely.

[Metastachydium]

I also like the idea of the more charismatic Jirix (whom the Darke One has spoken to) being the better choice to lead Gobbotopia into a new future. It like: it takes one kind of person to win a war, but it takes another kind of person, usually, to run/govern a country.

That's basically obvious enough for Redcloak to figure out on his own (hence his leaving Jirix in charge), yes.

[doctor23]

After all the trouble Team Order and Team Evil had will some group of antagonists try to "seize it from them at the last minute"? I confess that I was thinking about this between the last strip and this one, but I am not much of a speculator myself. That said, it looks like a fair possibility now.

That said, I ask you:

Which group of antagonists is the least likely to appear, if any?

Vector Legion (well what's left of it) swoops in to deal with that "sub-boss' "Zyklon" and teach Elan about giving things a thematically appropriate end. Ian Starshine and the Free City of doom woman (sorry can't remember her name) along with Enor and Ganji show up on their heels to deal with him. t

Then in a great swerve, Team Evil, The order and Ian's crew all team to together to TPK the Legion in one round.

Ian's Crew leaves to go set up a new order in The Empire of Blood and we get back to the story

(yes I know not likely but it sure is funny)

[KorvinStarmast]

Will somebody arrive mid-fight to seize The Gate?

Short answer: no, unless you refer to the IFCC showing up once The Order and Team Evil commence combat.
Here is my estimate on how IFCC does that: the three fiends have a link to V provided by the soul splice event and their ability to call V back two more times.
That link permits them to intercede on the mortal plane wherever V is.
I have no idea if D&D 3.5 has a mechanic like this, but it seems a heck of a lot less complicated, as magic goes, than the soul splice was.

[Metastachydium]

Zyklon

"Zyklon"

Oh. Guys, I know! It's going to be Xyklon the Consequential (and his assorted fiends) from SoD!

[No good @ names]

Vector Legion (well what's left of it) swoops in to deal with that "sub-boss' "Zyklon" and teach Elan about giving things a thematically appropriate end.

(yes I know not likely but it sure is funny)

Not sure the remainder of the Legion gives two Copper pieces about a thematically appropriate end. And Tarquin’s authority is much diminished by managing to have an actual Legion of the army kind get beaten 6 by misfits who were already worn out from a previous engagement.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not sure the remainder of the Legion gives two Copper pieces about a thematically appropriate end. And Tarquin’s authority is much diminished by managing to have an actual Legion of the army kind get beaten 6 by misfits who were already worn out from a previous engagement.
And Amun Zora, Ian, et al have a revenge mission going that ought to keep them busy.

[gbaji]

Will somebody arrive mid-fight to seize The Gate?

Short answer: no, unless you refer to the IFCC showing up once The Order and Team Evil commence combat.
Here is my estimate on how IFCC does that: the three fiends have a link to V provided by the soul splice event and their ability to call V back two more times.
That link permits them to intercede on the mortal plane wherever V is.
I have no idea if D&D 3.5 has a mechanic like this, but it seems a heck of a lot less complicated, as magic goes, than the soul splice was.

Yeah. I also believe something like this will happen. The IFCC clearly has some sort of plan, and that plan kinda has to happen at some point during/before the resolution of whatever conflict occurs between the Order and Team Evil, presumably right in front of or near to, the gate itself. How exactly that happens, is up for debate, but I also kinda agree that while I don't think they or their operatives could just travel directly into the Final Dungeon and mess with the gate willy-nilly, the connection with V will <magic magic> allow them to intervene in some way.

They are devils/demons/whatevers, right? While we can assume that the directly stated terms and restrictions they promised to V can't be broken, there's nothing to prevent them having additional capabilities that they just didn't bother to state. Like, say... that when taking V for X period of time, they can gate in/out other allies to the same location if needed or desired. If they can pull V from that location and protect Vs body while it's being held, they must also be able to do other things at that same location as well. Call it a convenient side effect, but this would presumably also allow them to target the same location to gate in other things as well.


I once used a similar trick to slip in an evil chaos deity avatar into what was otherwise a "fair fight" conflict between two competing good/evil teams of adventures in a game I ran (the PCs were "good", while my NPC were evil of course). One of the evil team was a necromancer who dabbled in Cthulhu style magic, and they needed to slow down the good teams ship, so he made a deal. In return for his body/soul upon his death, said chaos deity tossed a pretty decent sized Shoggoth at the hero's ship. It did slow them down a bit (but not enough as it turned out), and the adventurers just kinda shrugged it off and didn't give it another thought. Then, much later, at the final showdown, inside a heavily magicallly sealed tomb (as in the gods themselves could not access it, but merely watch), they're fighting the evil team for control of the super powerful prize (remnant of a dead deity's soul), the party's powerful sorceress faces off against the evil necromancer and manages to kill him, only for his body to contort and shift and grow into a giant avatar of Nyarlathotep (the bloody tounge avatar for anyone interested). To say things took a sharp left turn at that point was an understatement.

But yeah, getting one of the participants in a conflict like this to make some kind of deal that allows you to interact with their body/soul/whatever is a method to allow you to gain access to some location you might otherwise be blocked off from. I'd totally accept that as a rationale for the IFCC sending folks into the Final Dungeon. My personal prediction is that the IFCC has a plan to do <something> (drain souls into the vessel, using the artifact?), but they need the gods to destroy the world for this to work. So they are manipulating the conflict between TE and the Order to ensure that all of the gates are destroyed. If either side "wins" they lose. Which would make the deal with V really about gaining access when/where they need it, so as to maximize their odds of winning. You'll note that they used their first time period specifically to prevent V from warning Roy not to destroy the gate. So it's pretty clear that they wanted that gate destroyed at least. The've also previously stated that they wanted the conflict, and were happy that V's actions under the splice lit a fire under TE's butts and got them moving again. So that seems to be a reasonable conclusion (details on why/how are still fuzzy though).

[dtilque]

Redcloak's Niece, working with a Half-Celestial Hailey's Mom, Guy With a Halberd, and an Eastern-undead Miko.

Nah. Redcloak's Niece and Haley's cousin Jiminy.

[Metastachydium]

Nah. Redcloak's Niece and Haley's cousin Jiminy.

No-no-no, we're talking antagonists, it has to be Haley's cousin Sheila.

[dtilque]

No-no-no, we're talking antagonists, it has to be Haley's cousin Sheila.

But Jiminy's an antagonist. He prevented Roy from obtaining a useful weapon.

[Metastachydium]

But Jiminy's an antagonist. He prevented Roy from obtaining a useful weapon.

I'd personally argue that in the end, Roy prevented Roy from obtaining a useful weapon, but okay, fine. Let it be Haley's cousins all the way!

[Precure]

Wait, why do you expect Redcloak's niece to be a villain?

[Metastachydium]

Wait, why do you expect Redcloak's niece to be a villain?

She's a Goblin and they are Evil. Also, she's probably the Snarl.

[Precure]

She's a Goblin and they are Evil. Also, she's probably the Snarl.

Sounds reasonable enough.

[TRH]

That one hydra escapes its goblin fast food chain captors and comes for revenge bearing like 200 heads now.

[RatElemental]

That one hydra escapes its goblin fast food chain captors and comes for revenge bearing like 200 heads now.

The hydra can't get enough blood to any of its heads, but perhaps Goblin Dan will have made enough gold to raise an army and come knocking to protect his business interests

[brian 333]

Team Order = The Vector Legion,
Team Evil = Xykon, RC, & Co.,
Team Good = The Order of the Stick, (nominally,)

So, who is Team Chaos? Or Team Neutral, for that matter?

[Blue Dragon]

A) You wanted least likely, I gave you least likely. B) The shadowdancer and his companion aren't dead. They escaped through a shadow. To where, if there are no other shadows? No one can say. That's what makes them unlikely.

True. I apologize.

[dtilque]

Or Team Neutral, for that matter?

The bounty hunters. Well, before they joined up with some Good people in the revolution.

[Metastachydium]

The bounty hunters. Well, before they joined up with some Good people in the revolution.

I mean, the Order's always had a Neutral and an Evil member; the Monster never really was Evil; and I'm basically certain Jacinda isn't Lawful and Miron doesn't feel like that either.


So, who is Team Chaos? Or Team Neutral, for that matter?

I'd probably go with a small, but happy family (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html) and teenage girls (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html), respectively.

[KorvinStarmast]

:mitd: MitD is Team Chaos. :mitd:

[Precure]

The snarl is Team Chaos.

[Unoriginal]

Team Order = The Vector Legion

The Vector Legion isn't Team Order.

At best they're Team Evil-Filling-Its-Pockets-Through-Tyranny.

[gbaji]

I think trying to wedge each team into some sort of alignment system isn't a supported assumption.

[brian 333]

I think trying to wedge each team into some sort of alignment system isn't a supported assumption.

I think you are correct. It wasn't a great joke, but it was fun.

[Blue Dragon]

Will somebody arrive mid-fight to seize The Gate? Short answer: no, unless you refer to the IFCC showing up once The Order and Team Evil commence combat.

No, IFCC will not interfer directly, this is a fact.

What I was trying to do with the post was narrowing down the possibility of Vector Legion showing up to "one in a million", because Tarquin's foreshadowing back in "Raiders of the Lost Plot Arc" wasn't properly fullfilled, but boy did I formulate the question badly.

Now, I know that the author pulled a Moore and doesn't want to use Tarquin anymore and even then his main contribution was mostly cut out loose threads (Nale,Thog,Zzdrit), that he didn't want pulling the narrative back but there is a lot of story forward and even cutting the story to show this or that "team" still there is a lot of things to happen.

So I think it's reasonable that somebody can arrive near the end of the not-so-final confrontation between Xykon and Roy.

And I think that will be Laurin and the others members from the Vector Legion.

[gbaji]

No, IFCC will not interfer directly, this is a fact.

That's an oddly firm position to take, given that the IFCC is literally the only group left on the board with a stated objectve to meddle with whatever is going down with the gates (and has meddled in the past by ensuring the destruction of Girard's gate), and the only group who's "plan" hasn't yet been fully revealed (but has strongly been foreshadowed). Would be kinda silly to have all this foreshadowing of their actions involving Girard's gate, talk about the need to keep the conflict between TE and the Order going, talk about an "artifact" and a "vessel", and even talk about "getting their minions hands dirty", and not have them actually do anything at the Final Gate at all.

I mean, I guess we could say "not interfere directly" means that they aren't physically going to be there maybe, but I'd lay stong odds that whatever interferrence does happen, will be the direct result of their actions and at their direction. Otherwise, their entire existence in the story, is left as a dangling plot element that served no purpose. And I don't think Rich is going to do that.


What I was trying to do with the post was narrowing down the possibility of Vector Legion showing up to "one in a million", because Tarquin's foreshadowing back in "Raiders of the Lost Plot Arc" wasn't properly fullfilled, but boy did I formulate the question badly.

Now, I know that the author pulled a Moore and doesn't want to use Tarquin anymore and even then his main contribution was mostly cut out loose threads (Nale,Thog,Zzdrit), that he didn't want pulling the narrative back but there is a lot of story forward and even cutting the story to show this or that "team" still there is a lot of things to happen.

I get that some people think this, but the reality is that there is literally nothing left to tell in terms of story involving the Vector Legion. I mean, maybe some denoument stuff at the end, but certainly nothing directly involving the Final Gate.

Only add more toppings to the pizza if it makes it taste better. The VL is definitely a topping that isn't going to add anything at all.


So I think it's reasonable that somebody can arrive near the end of the not-so-final confrontation between Xykon and Roy.

And I think that will be Laurin and the others members from the Vector Legion.

Why?

Maybe instead of asking other people to discuss what they think might happen and why, you spend some time saying what you think will happen, and why you think it'll happen.

Aside from the whole "they are in a sealed dungeon, blocking all forms of teleportation magic, which requires a sequence of steps to gain access to that this group has not gone through", there's also the question of "they add nothing to the story by having them show up". Again though, that's just my personal opinion. If you think otherwise, please post why you think this would make the story better to have the VL show up.

[Blue Dragon]

That's an oddly firm position to take, given that the IFCC is literally the only group left on the board with a stated objectve to meddle with whatever is going down with the gates (and has meddled in the past by ensuring the destruction of Girard's gate), and the only group who's "plan" hasn't yet been fully revealed (but has strongly been foreshadowed). Would be kinda silly to have all this foreshadowing of their actions involving Girard's gate, talk about the need to keep the conflict between TE and the Order going, talk about an "artifact" and a "vessel", and even talk about "getting their minions hands dirty", and not have them actually do anything at the Final Gate at all.

I mean, I guess we could say "not interfere directly" means that they aren't physically going to be there maybe, but I'd lay stong odds that whatever interferrence does happen, will be the direct result of their actions and at their direction. Otherwise, their entire existence in the story, is left as a dangling plot element that served no purpose. And I don't think Rich is going to do that.



I get that some people think this, but the reality is that there is literally nothing left to tell in terms of story involving the Vector Legion. I mean, maybe some denoument stuff at the end, but certainly nothing directly involving the Final Gate.

Only add more toppings to the pizza if it makes it taste better. The VL is definitely a topping that isn't going to add anything at all.



Why?

Maybe instead of asking other people to discuss what they think might happen and why, you spend some time saying what you think will happen, and why you think it'll happen.

Aside from the whole "they are in a sealed dungeon, blocking all forms of teleportation magic, which requires a sequence of steps to gain access to that this group has not gone through", there's also the question of "they add nothing to the story by having them show up". Again though, that's just my personal opinion. If you think otherwise, please post why you think this would make the story better to have the VL show up.

1. Yes, I was specifically saying that they will not be there physically.
2. There is enough story to show Laurin and Miron in a cutaway.
3. I don't think that would make the story better, I am just specullating a little. And even if I did, it wouldn't matter, The Order of the Stick is not being write by vote or suggestions.

[KorvinStarmast]

And I think that will be Laurin and the others members from the Vector Legion. Interesting idea, but I don't see how either of them can satisfy the "what's in it for me" question by showing up at Kraagor's gate.

[Blue Dragon]

Interesting idea, but I don't see how either of them can satisfy the "what's in it for me" question by showing up at Kraagor's gate.

True, Laurin already owns the Great Desert riff and that's a lot! But I don't know what an epic Psion can discover after diving her mind in the rift as she did.

Truth is that I am betting on some kind of interference simply because there is still a lot of strips ahead and the comic doesn't update fast enough for our (my daughter and I) taste.

[Ginasius]

That TDO has never directly communicated or interacted with RedCloak is probably going to be significant at some point.

RC would likely rationalise it away as a trick or deception if he tried

I am not an expert on D&D rules but I believe that a god can deny powers to a cleric who is expressly acting against his wishes.

If TDO denies Redcloack powers he will not be able to initiate the Ritual.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am not an expert on D&D rules but I believe that a god can deny powers to a cleric who is expressly acting against his wishes.

If TDO denies Redcloack powers he will not be able to initiate the Ritual. Doesn't the cloak itself connect Redcloak to TDO? It's an artifact, and it is explicitly a thing "of" TDO.

[gbaji]

Doesn't the cloak itself connect Redcloak to TDO? It's an artifact, and it is explicitly a thing "of" TDO.

Well, that and I would tend to interpret that as a deity refusing to provide spells to a cleric who has already taken an act that betrayed the deity in some direct and meaningful way. The problem here is that the "act of betrayal" would be using a single 9th level spell slot to assist the other gods in using the fourth quiddity to seal the rifts. Once that's done, TDO coiuld refuse to re-fill that spell slot the next day, but could not do anything about it ahead of time.

I suppose TDO could put a damper on continuing to seal other rifts, but it seems to me that, unless he's a complete idiot (and I"m not saying he's not!), it would seem to be that at the point where your high priest has already decided to abandon your "Plan" and go in another direction, and if that direction actuall gains TDO some pretty serious stuff, I suspect he'll just go along with it.

Remember that the entire stated purpose of "The Plan" was to use the threat of the snarl to negotiate for better conditions and power/position for goblinkind in the world. So... if Redcloak gets those same concesssions from the other gods, by switching from "threaten them with the snarl" to "help them seal the rifts", that's Mission Accomplished, as far as TDO is concerned. Assuming that we've been told the truth about why TDO is actually doing all of this, of course. He's literally getting everything he likely would ever be able to get anyway.


Um... I'll add here that I don't think any of this will actually happen this way (cause, you know, someone will arrive in the middle of this and throw a wrench into the whole thing). But, if it did...

[Kardwill]

The Dark Ones approbation of a change of plan might also depend if it was His plan (Sent by TDO to RC via divine revelation. Doubtful since RC never had direct communication from his god), or Redcloak's plan (sent by RC to TDO during prayer). The Dark One is less likely to disapprove initiatives deviating from the Plan if the Plan was already Redcloak's pet project to begin with, and I think it is. Redcloak wouldn't be so desperately clinging to his "I am right, and everything will be worth it in the end" mindset if it wasn't his idea (and personal responsibility) to begin with.

I could be wrong, though. It's been a long time since I read some of the material, like "start of darkness", so maybe it's already been spelled out.

[Tzardok]

The Dark Ones approbation of a change of plan might also depend if it was His plan (Sent by TDO to RC via divine revelation. Doubtful since RC never had direct communication from his god), or Redcloak's plan (sent by RC to TDO during prayer). The Dark One is less likely to disapprove initiatives deviating from the Plan if the Plan was already Redcloak's pet project to begin with, and I think it is. Redcloak wouldn't be so desperately clinging to his "I am right, and everything will be worth it in the end" mindset if it wasn't his idea (and personal responsibility) to begin with.

I could be wrong, though. It's been a long time since I read some of the material, like "start of darkness", so maybe it's already been spelled out.

In Start of Darkness, Redcloak becomes aware of the plan the moment he puts on the Crimson Mantle. The Plan was is the work of the Dark One, and his prior highpriests already worked for it.

[Grendelkin]

Hadn't Redcloak's master more or less given up on the Plan in favour of doing what should have been his major job, i.e., shepherding the goblin people? I thought that was why he was in a minor goblin village, training new clerics, and why he expected so much from young Redcloak when all he wanted out of life was to serve his people.

[KorvinStarmast]

No, IFCC will not interfer directly, this is a fact. I find no basis for this position. You may end up being correct, but at this point it's a guess or an assumption.

The IFCC have already interfered twice:
First: to soul splice V.
That interference created conflict between V and Xykon in the vicinity of a gate.
Causing trouble near the gates seems to be embedded in their plans.

Second: to pull V out of the pyramid at a critical time, which led to a gate's destruction.
Again, their interference was tied to 'things happening in the vicinity of a gate" ... and the last remaining gate is Kraagor's.

I thus feel that "IFCC interferes while there is a serious brawl going on near the gate (Team Evil and Order)" is a very likely occurrence. They may interfere slightly before that (as in BRitF before Xykon could get to the gate) to create difficulty for the Order and Xykon in dealing with the last gate. (The wild card in this case is, to me, MitD).

So I think it's reasonable that somebody can arrive near the end of the not-so-final confrontation between Xykon and Roy.
Yes. The foreshadowing in strip 1183 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) suggests to me that it will be the IFCC.

While I am interested in seeing just what it was that Laurin beheld what got her attention before Miron saved her, I am not sure that detail will end up being revealed .... until and unless Rich chooses to do a big reveal about that world within in the Rift. That reveal trikes me as having a very high probability.
The readers' chains will no longer be jerked (see Belkar's remarks in strip 0900) when that reveal takes place.

I still think that - on the basis of Thor's big reveal on how many millions or billions of worlds have been made and lost over time - the Snarl has learned over time from his jailers how to make a world. (1)
Unlike the Snarl's destruction of all of those previous worlds, the world inside the Rift is the Snarl's creation.
The Fiends don't know about that world, or didn't. Thor and Odin didn't know about that world, but got a hint of it in Durkon's farewell remarks before his last resurrection.
The reveal on that ought to shake up the cosmos a bit.

--------------------------

{1} This might be a variation on the "million monkeys with typewriters eventually coming up with Shakespeare" or it might be something else.

[Kardwill]

The Fiends don't know about that world, or didn't.

They didn't seem surprised when Blackwing mentioned the "planet in the rift" in #903. And it's likely they heard him, since they gaged both V and BW to stop their speculations.

It's difficult to see what the IFCC is after. It looks like they want the world undone, but on the other hand they have apparently nothing to gain from it : If the Snarl gets out, it will destroys souls that are their nourishment ; and if the gods rebuild the world, the outsiders will be "reset", so their plots will disappear with their memories.

All I know about their plot is that
a - it involves "destructive, unnecessary conflict" at the gates, from which neither the Order nor Xykon will emerge victorious
b - somehow, the fact that it will "bring down the gods of good" is "technically true", and the slaughter of a few hundred Good dragons will be trivial if the plan succeeds. (#668)
c - Hel's plan of destroying the world was "the gods doing their work" (#1183)
d - they act mostly by putting pawns on every team they can to foster conflict, but have decided to "roll up their sleeves and get their minions' hands dirty", meaning they will take more direct action for the last gate.
e - Their end-run plan involves an artefact, and a "vessel" prepared by Sabine

I think BW's speculation has merit : The IFCC is plotting against the gods, and pretty confident about their chances to win, or at least create a slaughter of mythologic proportions. Following the established pattern of destruction/creation would just reestablish a new status-quo and gain them nothing, so they need something the gods aren't aware of to break or change the cycle. A plan revolving around the planet (or around any other unknown property of the rifts and/or the Snarl) would blindside the gods.

[Tubercular Ox]

a - it involves "destructive, unnecessary conflict" at the gates, from which neither the Order nor Xykon will emerge victorious
b - somehow, the fact that it will "bring down the gods of good" is "technically true", and the slaughter of a few hundred Good dragons will be trivial if the plan succeeds. (#668)
c - Hel's plan of destroying the world was "the gods doing their work" (#1183)
d - they act mostly by putting pawns on every team they can to foster conflict, but have decided to "roll up their sleeves and get their minions' hands dirty", meaning they will take more direct action for the last gate.
e - Their end-run plan involves an artefact, and a "vessel" prepared by Sabine

f - They conceived their plan after Sabine reported to them the story told by Shojo to Nale, where they learned the Snarl was born from deific frustration and hostility and the gods were vulnerable to the Snarl's attacks more than a mortal of the same level would be.

EDIT: Since when have I been shy about expressing opinions?

a - If the observing gods are torn between destroying the world to save souls and keeping it going to hang on to The Dark One's quiddity, there will be conflict. Enough conflict could create another Snarl, hopefully a smaller, more easily controlled one.
b - If the fiends have an assassin with God Bane claws to threaten them with, the good gods will never get to make their own decisions ever again.
c - Hel's plan of using the no-backsies rule to guarantee her ascension was likely to create a contingent of gods who were prepared to fight over the no-backsies rule. Conflict.
d - this seems plan-independent.
e - I'm clueless what this means, but because the fiends talk about V's body as a vessel, I have lots of crazy ideas.

[The MunchKING]

Hadn't Redcloak's master more or less given up on the Plan in favour of doing what should have been his major job, i.e., shepherding the goblin people? I thought that was why he was in a minor goblin village, training new clerics, and why he expected so much from young Redcloak when all he wanted out of life was to serve his people.

I mean it could be he was training up a successor/looking for a Golin Arcane Caster to do the Plan with.


f - They conceived their plan after Sabine reported to them the story told by Shojo to Nale, where they learned the Snarl was born from deific frustration and hostility and the gods were vulnerable to the Snarl's attacks more than a mortal of the same level would be.

Oooh, what if their plan is to cause ENOUGH Chaos and fighting that someone will level up to Snarl-killing levels? And then with the power/legend and belief that comes from slaying a Pantheon-killing over-being that was greater than all the Gods, they hop their champion will become a New Super-God, perferably one Evil and willing to kill/take out a few of the Good Gods.

[Peelee]

And then with the power/legend and belief that comes from slaying a Pantheon-killing over-being that was greater than all the Gods,


The legend and belief that comes from slaying something virtually nobody even knows exists?

[The MunchKING]

The legend and belief that comes from slaying something virtually nobody even knows exists?

Yeah, I assumed the Champion would tell everyone at some point or another.

EDIT: That that's what he's training for I mean, not after the fact trying to fill in the narrative. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

In the extremely unlikely hypothetical where an evil-aligned goblin champion had enough sheer power to reliably destroy the Snarl, it would probably be trivial to drag the Snarl into the world first, and maybe let it destroy a continent so that the rest of the world understood the extent of the threat before destroying it.

(...Even easier to just plain conquer the world; this sounds like a Nale plan.)

[Peelee]

Yeah, I assumed the Champion would tell everyone at some point or another.

EDIT: That that's what he's training for I mean, not after the fact trying to fill in the narrative. :smalltongue:

Fair point. Bytheway, I've been meaning to tell you, I'm training to defeat a bunch of aliens that sre going to destroy the planet. Like, a whole fleet.

[The MunchKING]

Fair point. Bytheway, I've been meaning to tell you, I've defeated a bunch of aliens that were going to destroy the planet. Like, a whole fleet. Got em all myself.

That would put you up there with Laharl then. :smallbiggrin:

[gbaji]

Oooh, what if their plan is to cause ENOUGH Chaos and fighting that someone will level up to Snarl-killing levels? And then with the power/legend and belief that comes from slaying a Pantheon-killing over-being that was greater than all the Gods, they hop their champion will become a New Super-God, perferably one Evil and willing to kill/take out a few of the Good Gods.

How does that benefit them though? They are high power outer planes creatures. but still just basically aspects of those planes and bound to them. They already serve whatever divine powers that exist and have influence over their respective planes, so how does plotting to create one even more powerful (evil) deity for them to serve under make any real difference to them?

I don't think they'd do what they are doing, and risk what they are risking if the payoff didn't put themselves in a position of power over the gods in some way. Nothing else makes any sense.

We know for a fact that Hel's plan would have served their plans as well, if the gods had voted to destroy the world. But if the gods destroy the world, the next step in the process is "wipe/reset all of the outer planes beings". Which means they cease to exist as they are now. Any plan they are working on must include a way to avoid that, and given the relative power/position of outer planes beings to the gods, there's literally no way for them to do that without completely upsetting that power dynamic.

The specifics of their plan are up in the air, but it must involve some way of empowering them so that they are no longer simply manifestations of planes that the gods can modify and manipulate at will *and* it must allow for their long term survival in some way. I'm somewhat of a fan of the theory that they've found some way to redirect all of the divine/creative energy involved in making the prime material plane, so that they can use it themselves, both to sustain themselves, and to be the ones to actually create the next world (or something similar). Why settle for making someone else the uber god, with them as loyal lackeys, when they can literally create a new world where they are the only ones involved in its creation, and they can effectively "write out" the rest of the gods. With no one to worship them, the old gods will fade away, while the fiends will gain all the power for themselves.

Seems like a bold enough plan to me.


I do also believe that things aren't actually going to play out this way, and a good portion of that will be due to the nature of the snarl not being (or no longer being) what anyone thinks. I tend to agree with the theory that over all of that time, it has evolved and become more or less its own deity creating its own material plane (and world) within its portion of reality. I think that in the process of the IFCC causing the final gate to be destroyed, the Order will be pulled through the rift and encounter the world within (and the snarl as well). I think that the snarl will be as unaware of what exists outside of its realm as the gods are of what exists within it, and will see the rifts as as much of a problem for it as the gods see them for their "side" of things. I suspect there will be some sort of resolution where the snarl will agree to close the rifts on its side, and allow the gods to do the same on theirs, thus ending the cycle forever.

And, if said agreement can be reached and communicated back to the gods in time, the destruction of the world that the IFCC is counting on wont actually happen, so they'll find themselves in a pretty embarassing situation. Queue various denoument style resolutions for other plot threads. TDO and Redcloak maybe do parlay the need to have his help sealing the rifts to get better treatment and acceptance for gobliins. Elan and Haley go off and help her dad deal with his dad. Roy has fulfilled his blood oath (er, yeah, Xykon gets killed at some point in all of this too), so happiness for his family. V maybe heads back to the elf lands to patch things up relationship wise too. Durkon goes back to the dwarf lands to shared custody of Kudzu. And Belkar either dies heroically or remains in the snarl's world, but in either case never sets foot or breathes or is seen (eating birthday cake or otherwise) in the OotS world again.

The End

[brian 333]

Fair point. Bytheway, I've been meaning to tell you, I'm training to defeat a bunch of aliens that sre going to destroy the planet. Like, a whole fleet.

That was YOU!?!
We shall meet again, Colonel Silver! And this time I will bring twice as many ships, and they will be twice as big! And it will be you and your Dragon Squadron who will be surprised!

You shall rue the day that you ever heard of me! In fact, you should start rueing now! Because after you've been destroyed you won't be able to rue, and you will regret having missed the chance.

But, seriously, any chain of speculation involving the world in the rift is based on the idea that it is an habitable world. However, in the one place we'd expect to find life, Laurin can't sense any.

I personally believe the world in the rift is Elan's Happy Ending, but it is based only on what I think would be cool

[Tubercular Ox]

Oooh, what if their plan is to cause ENOUGH Chaos and fighting that someone will level up to Snarl-killing levels? And then with the power/legend and belief that comes from slaying a Pantheon-killing over-being that was greater than all the Gods, they hop their champion will become a New Super-God, perferably one Evil and willing to kill/take out a few of the Good Gods.

If the plot ends the way we all expect, except the Fiends get away with their newly minted mini-Snarl and no one is the wiser, then the sequel could have this as a (sub)plot.

[gbaji]

But, seriously, any chain of speculation involving the world in the rift is based on the idea that it is an habitable world. However, in the one place we'd expect to find life, Laurin can't sense any.

Doesn't mean that there is no life there though. I can think of at least three immediate possiblities:

1. Magical effects can't cross the border of the rift, so she sensed nothing because her senses didn't penetrate.

2. The other reality operates under different magical rules, and psionics (and perhaps other stuff) just doesn't work there (or doesn't work the same, and she didn't have the time to relearn how to use her abilities).

3. The other reality operates under different physical rules, and what she's used to sensing as "life" isn't what life senses as (needed to change the frequency or something).


To me, this is Chekov's planet. There's no point in having stated that there was a planet on the other side of the rift, and later showing that there was water on said planet (important detail being a rift that opened onto a surface rather than what appeared to be way up above previously), if no one's ever going to go there. At the very least, there has to be some kind of information that explains what the planet is, how it came to be there, whether people live on it, etc (and why it's relevant in the first place). And I'm not sure how that's going to happen in the story we have left without "the Order gets sucked through the rift and finds themselves on the planet" happening. I mean. They're in the Final Dungeon, with the Final Gate. The only remaining players who can interact with them are TE and the IFCC (and it's unclear how directly they may be able to). There's basically three things out there: The Gate, the Artifact, and the Vessel. We don't know what the last two are or do, but we know the gate seals a rift, that connects to this other reality and that the planet is there.

Rich has managed to surprise me and do things in ways I haven't expected pretty consistently, so I'm sure there's going to be more to it than I'm thinking, but I'm not sure how the Order (and audience) learns about what the planet is without going there at this point. I suppose the artifact could be an interreality communicator or something, and allow them to talk to the snarl or other beings on the other side, or something. But at some point, for them to get any knowledge about "whats on the other side of the rifts", either they have to go there, or they have to talk to someone who knows. It's possible that the whole thing gets resolved by the snarl poking its head out of the rift and talking to folks, maybe. But something has to happen that provides the answers to that question at some point in time (and there isn't much of that left).


I just don't think that Rich would show us that there's another world on the other side of the rift (twice!) and not have that be relevant to the story/plot in some way.

[Tubercular Ox]

If there are inhabitants on the other planet, they could be coming through Kraagor's Gate right now. Think of the time it would save to meet them without having to pass through. Also mumble mumble threads of reality.

[gbaji]

If there are inhabitants on the other planet, they could be coming through Kraagor's Gate right now. Think of the time it would save to meet them without having to pass through. Also mumble mumble threads of reality.

Kraagar's Gate is still sealed though. So even if inhabitants on the other planet have the ability to travel through the rifts, they could not do so through that one.

[Tubercular Ox]

Kraagar's Gate is still sealed though. So even if inhabitants on the other planet have the ability to travel through the rifts, they could not do so through that one.

mumble mumble threads of reality.

[The MunchKING]

But, seriously, any chain of speculation involving the world in the rift is based on the idea that it is an habitable world. However, in the one place we'd expect to find life, Laurin can't sense any.

Without casting doubts on Laurin's unquestionably impressive psychic abilities, when we saw it in wide-view (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) there was a lot of green, thus suggesting plant life at least lives there.

[Grendelkin]

Either there's plantlife, or else there's ungodly amounts of jade and emeralds on the surface.

[RatElemental]

Either there's plantlife, or else there's ungodly amounts of jade and emeralds on the surface.

Could be green paint.

There's also no particular reason plants have to be green, depending on the color of and distance to their local star they might evolve different colors to absorb more or less light for various reasons.

[Kardwill]

That was YOU!?!
But, seriously, any chain of speculation involving the world in the rift is based on the idea that it is an habitable world. However, in the one place we'd expect to find life, Laurin can't sense any.

Yeah, that bugs me too. I thought the existence of a planet in the rift was a possible solution to the goblins' problem : If the planet is unpopulated, then the goblins can have their own lands without having to conquer/enslave other people. But that only works if said lands are hospitable, and "no life in the ocean" is not a good sign.


That said, I agree with Gbaji that the heroes are going to "riftland", one way or another. Too many threads are hanging for that story to end with just a climatic fight with Xykon.

[Grendelkin]

Could be green paint.

Now you've conjured a mental image of the Snarl, decorating its own planet like a Fabergé egg in between rampages to destroy the gods and their creations.
... It may or may not be smoking a pipe and wearing a vest when engaged in its hobby, and has a collection of special brushes and paints.

[Peelee]

Yeah, that bugs me too. I thought the existence of a planet in the rift was a possible solution to the goblins' problem : If the planet is unpopulated, then the goblins can have their own lands without having to conquer/enslave other people.

Speaking solely for myself, I would be shocked and disappointed if the problem regarding systemic goblin oppression was solved by segregation.

[Kardwill]

Speaking solely for myself, I would be shocked and disappointed if the problem regarding systemic goblin oppression was solved by segregation.

The thing is, having their own lands is a major part of the goblins' demands, and one of the thorny ones since they can't have them without taking them from other people. For now, the goblins (and probably most "monster races") scrape by in the lands nobody wanted.

And I don't think simply merging into the population of human/dwarf/elf controlled kingdoms, like halflings and gnomes tend to do in D&Dverse, would satisfy them.

Soooo... We'll see, I guess?

[Peelee]

The thing is, having their own lands is a major part of the goblins' demands, and one of the thorny ones since they can't have them without taking them from other people.

Sure. But at this point, they have a major metropolis (and arguably all the associated territory that goes with it), along with trading partners who recognize their sovereignty.

So I'm not sure about dumping them on an entirely isolated area with nobody else around is really all that ideal.

[Tubercular Ox]

Speaking solely for myself, I would be shocked and disappointed if the problem regarding systemic goblin oppression was solved by segregation.

It doesn't have to be segregation. If the new planet ends up being colonizable, they could just have dibs on the good stuff while retaining their holdings on the old planet.

Or if the humans settle on the new planet, do they tell the goblins they have to stay home because they have to stay integrated?

Maybe the humans could agree to settle on the marginal territory so that the new planet is integrated like the old planet.

[brian 333]

Speaking solely for myself, I would be shocked and disappointed if the problem regarding systemic goblin oppression was solved by segregation.

I agree with this. The solution must be an acceptance of goblins (and other intelligent monsters) as equals. Getting rid of the goblins is not a solution.

[Precure]

Having their own land and independent homeland is not segregation, by that logic the existence of elven and dwarven lands are pro-segregation.

[Mic_128]

The IFCC have already interfered twice:
First: to soul splice V.
That interference created conflict between V and Xykon in the vicinity of a gate.

No, there was no gate. That gate was destroyed, and had been for months. It did do what was probable, causing Xykon to get off his bones and get back to searching for the gates again.


Causing trouble near the gates seems to be embedded in their plans.

Causing the destruction of the gates seems to be part of their plans. We know outright that they were wanting Hel to win her vote to destroy the planet (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) as that would have done their job for them.

Serini even knows it - conflict around the gates leads to them being destroyed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1254.html).

[RatElemental]

Now you've conjured a mental image of the Snarl, decorating its own planet like a Fabergé egg in between rampages to destroy the gods and their creations.
... It may or may not be smoking a pipe and wearing a vest when engaged in its hobby, and has a collection of special brushes and paints.

Well it doesn't seem to need the stuff gods need to keep godding, but it is important to have hobbies. A model planet or two (at 1:1 scale, because why not) isn't the worst pastime out there.

[KorvinStarmast]

I want to thank RatElemental and Grendelkin for getting somewhere close to the topic...

Will somebody arrive mid-fight to seize The Gate?

Here on page 3.
I can't answer anything but "yes" however "whom" remains unclear...so I am sticking with my IFCC interference guess.

[Grendelkin]

Alternatively, the bugbears could show up en masse and turn on Team Evil and the Order alike. Oona has made it pretty clear she and her tribe aren't in this for Redcloak's revolution, and while trade with Gobbotopia would be beneficial, it is not essential the way Monster Hollow is.

[The MunchKING]

How does that benefit them though? They are high power outer planes creatures. but still just basically aspects of those planes and bound to them. They already serve whatever divine powers that exist and have influence over their respective planes, so how does plotting to create one even more powerful (evil) deity for them to serve under make any real difference to them?

They are scary efficient manipulators (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html), so the idea is this would be a Super-God they could control. Or at least manipulate into doing what they want.

Also they are Evil, so the extent that they are willing to work with ANY Evil God is questionable let alone serve them.




We know for a fact that Hel's plan would have served their plans as well, if the gods had voted to destroy the world. But if the gods destroy the world, the next step in the process is "wipe/reset all of the outer planes beings". Which means they cease to exist as they are now. Any plan they are working on must include a way to avoid that, and given the relative power/position of outer planes beings to the gods, there's literally no way for them to do that without completely upsetting that power dynamic.

Or they don't know about that bit, because they've been mindwiped. :smallwink:


I'm somewhat of a fan of the theory that they've found some way to redirect all of the divine/creative energy involved in making the prime material plane, so that they can use it themselves, both to sustain themselves, and to be the ones to actually create the next world (or something similar). Why settle for making someone else the uber god, with them as loyal lackeys, when they can literally create a new world where they are the only ones involved in its creation, and they can effectively "write out" the rest of the gods. With no one to worship them, the old gods will fade away, while the fiends will gain all the power for themselves.

Seems like a bold enough plan to me.

That sounds BONKERS. If they could pull that off they would be sitting pretty.

[KorvinStarmast]

Alternatively, the bugbears could show up en masse and turn on Team Evil and the Order alike. Given Xykon's and V's AoE spells, and the Order showing that they can handle crowds, this does not seem likely.

[Grendelkin]

Given Xykon's and V's AoE spells, and the Order showing that they can handle crowds, this does not seem likely.

Oona and her tribe regularly tangle with the monsters Terini seeded in the dungeon. If they shadow Team Evil and the Order and wait for them to exhaust their resources fighting one another, they could make a good effort at beating them both. There's a chance they've been getting ready this whole time to take down Team Evil, at least.

Remember what Oona said to the Monster in the Dark? She'd take him in when Xykon died. Not "if", "when". She's giving Redcloak a chance to do right by her tribe because he's a fellow goblinoid, but I think she'll be prepared to take him down as well if he fails to do his duty.

[KorvinStarmast]

Remember what Oona said to the Monster in the Dark? She'd take him in when Xykon died. Not "if", "when". She's giving Redcloak a chance to do right by her tribe because he's a fellow goblinoid, but I think she'll be prepared to take him down as well if he fails to do his duty.
In this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html), she says "if" in the last panel. Is that what you are referring to?

[Grendelkin]

In this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html), she says "if" in the last panel. Is that what you are referring to?

Oof. >_< I misremembered that.
Please disregard me and carry on...

[Precure]

Serini: Looks smart and evil, actually stupid inside

Oona: Looks stupid, actually evil and smart inside

I wouldn't ignore Oona and her tribe's chances, they've been working closely with Xykon and Redcloak for a while, gods knew what they learned about them in this time frame.

[KorvinStarmast]

Serini: Looks smart and evil, actually stupid inside Referring to someone who has something like PTSD (see the Xykon attack on her (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html)) as stupid is not a good look.

Oona: Looks stupid, actually evil and smart inside Oona does not look stupid. Oona speaks common in an idiosyncratic way, sort of how a native born Italian, or a native born Mexican, speaks English in an idiosyncratic way as they learn the language. Similarly, my 'accent' in both Italian and Spanish are a signal that I was never a native speaker. I am not fluent in either. There were similar nonsensical criticisms of Bandana's style of speaking/slang/dialect.

I wouldn't ignore Oona and her tribe's chances, they've been working closely with Xykon and Redcloak for a while, gods knew what they learned about them in this time frame. While I won't underestimate Oona's tribe of bugbears, you may be overestimating their power level unless a lot of them have pets like Lancer.

[Precure]

Referring to someone who has something like PTSD (see the Xykon attack on her (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html)) as stupid is not a good look.

Why?


Oona does not look stupid. Oona speaks common in an idiosyncratic way, sort of how a native born Italian, or a native born Mexican, speaks English in an idiosyncratic way as they learn the language. Similarly, my 'accent' in both Italian and Spanish are a signal that I was never a native speaker. I am not fluent in either. There were similar nonsensical criticisms of Bandana's style of speaking/slang/dialect.

Hence why I said "looks stupid" instead of being one.


While I won't underestimate Oona's tribe of bugbears, you may be overestimating their power level unless a lot of them have pets like Lancer.

If some adventurers are expected to defeat Xykon, why not a whole tribe of them?

[brian 333]

If some adventurers are expected to defeat Xykon, why not a whole tribe of them?

Combat in D&D allows characters ten or more levels higher than their foes to wipe out virtually any number of them. See Belkar's Sexy Shoeless God of War moment.

I assume Oona's tribe is advanced beyond normal 3HD bugbears, but they would have to be level 12 or so to have any real chance to succeed in an attack, and be willing to accept significant losses to do it.

[The MunchKING]

Referring to someone who has something like PTSD (see the Xykon attack on her (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html)) as stupid is not a good look.

Someone can both have PTSD AND be stupid. It's not like they are mutually exclusive traits.

[Precure]

Combat in D&D allows characters ten or more levels higher than their foes to wipe out virtually any number of them. See Belkar's Sexy Shoeless God of War moment.

I assume Oona's tribe is advanced beyond normal 3HD bugbears, but they would have to be level 12 or so to have any real chance to succeed in an attack, and be willing to accept significant losses to do it.

They are a tribe of dungeon crawling adventurers, hunting monsters as a living. I wouldn't be surprised if they have impressive PC levels.

[Grendelkin]

Consider also that the fan theory is that Oona has good levels in a prestige class, and her tribe 'hunts a little, tames a little' in Kraagor's tomb, where Serini stables the most powerful monsters she can persuade to set up shop. They have at least one shaman who regularly crafts magic items for the tribe out of monster parts. And Oona, at the very least, is well-prepared to fight spellcasters by wrecking their concentration and doing a *bleep*ton of damage when striking.
I really wouldn't underestimate the tribe.

[Kardwill]

Yeah, anyone using Kraagor's tomb as a convenient shopping mall is crazy strong.

Maybe not "Take down the campaign endboss by themselves" crazy strong, but definitely not pushovers.



Hence why I said "looks stupid" instead of being one.


Thing is, she doesn't look stupid? She is pictured as perceptive, doesn't let RC bull**** her, never does anything stupid nor shows any lack of thought.
Yeah, she and her warg speak common in a weird way, she's brutal, and she tends to be focusing ont the "now". But her speach could simply signal they are not native speakers. IIRC, we never "heard" Oona talk to another tribe member.
Although I agree that it can create expectations for both the people interacting with her, and the readers, since it reminds us of Thogspeak.

The main thing that might create that "stupid bugbear" perception are that we actually often see her through Redcloak's prejudice : Despite all his talk about Goblin Dignity and his epiphany during the Azure City Battle, he's still patronising, or even nasty, in most interactions he has with goblinoids, as if they were not equals but just children too stupid to understand what needs to be done. As a mere bugbear with a martial class, Oona gets the same treatment.

[Liquor Box]

Referring to someone who has something like PTSD (see the Xykon attack on her (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html)) as stupid is not a good look.

So someone is stupid, but then they get PTSD, so you can't call them stupid anymore?

[KorvinStarmast]

Someone can both have PTSD AND be stupid. It's not like they are mutually exclusive traits.


So someone is stupid, but then they get PTSD, so you can't call them stupid anymore? She was not stupid in the first place. There is no evidence of stupidity in Serini.
Stubbornness? Yeah, a bit of that.

[Liquor Box]

She was not stupid in the first place. There is no evidence of stupidity in Serini.
Stubbornness? Yeah, a bit of that.

There is widespread disagreement on whether her decision making is poor, and you are welcome to weigh in on that. But "she has PTSD" is not an argument against.

[brian 333]

Smart people do stupid things all the time. Most commonly when success in one field leads to the belief that they are experts in all fields. Some examples from my life:
A doctor who thought he could renovate his house until he dropped a cast iron porcelain bathtub through the floor, the dining room ceiling, and the picture window of his dining room.
A a chef who taught at a premier culinary institute who thought he could use power tools until he had to go to the above doctor for surgery to reattach his thumb.
A lawyer who is convinced he is only one good night at the casino away from buying back his old life.

Serini is not stupid. She is smart enough to know that no matter how smart she thinks she is, somehow her best laid plans will eventually fail. So her plan was to give it her best shot and call for backup when she needed it.

So far as I can tell, that makes her one step smarter than the rest of the Scribblers. They only gave it their best shot.

[KorvinStarmast]

. But "she has PTSD" is not an argument against. Your hostility towards Serini has been consistent, so I find your latest position to have no validity - due to your personal bias.

[Liquor Box]

Your hostility towards Serini has been consistent, so I find your latest position to have no validity - due to your personal bias.

Hmmm, so because I haven't had as high of an opinion of Serini as you generally, you reject the suggestion that PTSD has nothing to do with intelligence?

Ok.

[Grendelkin]

Hold up: we've seen the Earth Clerics - the ones who got backstabbed and demolished by the Church of Hel.
What if the other elemental faiths show up to take the Gate, hoping to extort equality or just to take revenge on Hel?

[Peelee]

Hold up: we've seen the Earth Clerics - the ones who got backstabbed and demolished by the Church of Hel.
What if the other elemental faiths show up to take the Gate, hoping to extort equality or just to take revenge on Hel?

So first question, how would they know anything about the Gates, the Snarl, or what Hel did at all?

[Grendelkin]

So first question, how would they know anything about the Gates, the Snarl, or what Hel did at all?

If the elemental faiths are connected in the balance of the world, they might have a good relationship. When the Earth clerics suddenly fell silent, the other Creeds could have investigated what happened.
All it would take is one of those clerics sequestered at the Godsmoot shooting his or her mouth off...

[Kardwill]

So first question, how would they know anything about the Gates, the Snarl, or what Hel did at all?

Easy : They were in contact with old Grontor, since he intended to negociate some reforms allowing all non-theistic religions a place at the moot. And then, after a few days with no news from the creed of stone, the Air Temple adepts rode their sky bisons cloudwalked to unguarded zenith peak and uncovered the godsmoot fiasco.

Okay, that doesn't sound likely at all (like, how did they find Kraagor's gate?), but isn't this thread is about highly unlikely challengers? :smallbiggrin:

[Grendelkin]

Really, all it takes is the cleric of Balder blurting out something he shouldn't or the cleric of Hel gloating about the death of the Creed of Stone.

[Peelee]

If the elemental faiths are connected in the balance of the world, they might have a good relationship. When the Earth clerics suddenly fell silent, they could have investigated what happened.
All it would take is one of those clerics sequestered at the Godsmoot shooting his or her mouth off...

Ok, assuming this very implausible and highly circumstantial case arises, second question. How do they find Kraagor's Gate?

[Kardwill]

Ok, assuming this very implausible and highly circumstantial case arises, second question. How do they find Kraagor's Gate?

That's the tricky one. The simplest way to do it would be to track down the Mechane. A bunch of high level air clerics might be able to do it, but on the other hand, the ship is probably protected against divination, since Julio has dangerous foes.

Not-Grontor gloated about messing with the vote at Firmament, so if someone at the Moot is a tattletale (and between the bodyguards, Veldrina and some of the priests we saw, it's a real possibility), that gives them a lead. Wether it's enough to catch up to the Mechane and follow it depends of when they picked up the trail.

Again grasping at straws here, but I find "how would they do it?" a more entertaining thought process than proving the negative. Call that a GM habit ^^

[Grendelkin]

The other Creeds could go to Firmament for a shot at the vampire who saw about the murder of the Creed of Stone.
Once they're over there, there are sure to be some dwarves willing to talk about what happened - especially once the beer starts flowing. Even if it's in vague terms ("it's all to do with something going on up north"), the Creeds could get a vague lead. If they can question the elements, they could track the Mechane.

[Peelee]

That's the tricky one. The simplest way to do it would be to track down the Mechane. A bunch of high level air clerics might be able to do it, but on the other hand, the ship is probably protected against divination, since Julio has dangerous foes.

Not-Grontor gloated about messing with the vote at Firmament, so if someone at the Moot is a tattletale (and between the bodyguards, Veldrina and some of the priests we saw, it's a real possibility), that gives them a lead. Wether it's enough to catch up to the Mechane and follow it depends of when they picked up the trail.

Again grasping at straws here, but I find "how would they do it?" a more entertaining thought process than proving the negative. Call that a GM habit ^^


The other Creeds could go to Firmament for a shot at the vampire who saw about the murder of the Creed of Stone.
Once they're over there, there are sure to be some dwarves willing to talk about what happened - especially once the beer starts flowing. Even if it's in vague terms ("it's all to do with something going on up north"), the Creeds could get a vague lead. If they can question the elements, they could track the Mechane.

And how would tracking the Mechane work, even if it doesn't have divination protections? No one at the Godsmoot knows what it's called, and few saw it. Almost certainly wouldn't be able to describe it enough to discern it from other airships, ans they certainly don't know any of its crew.

Also the fact that Roy ordered the Mechane to leave meant there would only be a one-hour time frame during which tracking the Mechane would actually give the relevant information, assuming they were able to track it to start with (Kardwill, I'm all for thr fun of exploring "how"!).

[Grendelkin]

Sweet, curious Veldrina was on the Mechane. She only needs to say the right/wrong thing once, and the Creeds would have a clue.

[Peelee]

Sweet, curious Veldrina was on the Mechane. She only needs to say the right/wrong thing once, and the Creeds would have a clue.

Fair. However, that still leaves the fact that the Gods moot has comms blackout while it's going on, Dvalin has been known to delay for large swaths of time, and the Mechane was only present at the site for an hour. Even if the other elemental creeds found a length of time incommunicado suspicious enough to investigate, found the location kf the secret Godsmoot, decided to invade the sanctity of tbe Godsmoot, were able to finagle information out kf people who are bound to secrecy, and tracked down the Mechane.... This would be weeks of investigating and traveling all over. Meanwhile everything is happening now.

[Grendelkin]

They could commune with the elements to track the Mechane, if not directly, than by mentions of a zeppelin ship headed in the right direction.
Or they could go directly to Firmament, and from there track down Kraagor's Gate as a strange area 'where the land is silent, as though hushed before a great peril'.

As for knowing where the Godsmoot is being held - who says the Creed of Stone hid that from those more closely allied to them than the Churches? They could be in constant contact, or just waiting for the Creed of Stone to report whether they'd made any progress towards equal representation. In that case, a day's silence really would be cause for alarm.

[Kardwill]

Let's play ^^

* The "secret godsmoot" itself was known to a bunch of people. Demigods' clergy that didn't even bother to make the trip anymore, transportations, escorts. The ushers/keepers were selected from a creed, indicating a will to at least involve them in an organisation capacity, if not a political one. Not-Durkon expected to "find informations" about it simply by asking random questions to random clergymen in a random gnome city. And Grontor was willing to let unrelated people wait outside the main door, so security was not very high. The idea that the other Creeds, which were in the same political agenda than old Grontor, got the memo from him doesn't sound that far fetched.

* The ushers/door security were vamped, at least one of them was torn to shred. Any "friendly cleric neighbor" knocking at the main door would quickly find cause for concern, and the only people able to respond to someone calling and tell them what happened (or that the moot was still in session) were the people initially in the council room. Probably the bodyguards, since the clerics can't exit the council grounds.

* Not sure the bodyguards feel bound to their oath of secrecy (or anything gods-related) right now. Especially the guards of priests whose god voted yes. And Veldrina is a walking, breathing and talking security breach :smallbiggrin:


So the main factor would be : When do the other creeds come knocking when they don't get Gontor's call about their political proposal? (and neither he, nor any member of the cult they might know, answers to Sendings)

If it's a week, the trail is cold and gone. If it's less than a day, they might be able to catch up the Mechane around Firmament (or contact members of the Creeds in Firmament. Although it's likely that dwarves were mostly drawn to the Creed of Stone, whose local chapter has just been exterminated - A fair number of the vamped clerics were dwarves)

[Grendelkin]

I'd like to think there are at least a very few members of the Creed of the Winds in Firmament. The dwarves believe the sky is where Thor lives. Sooner or later, wouldn't you get someone who gets caught up in the mysteries of the realm, instead of its occupant?

[Tzardok]

I'm completely blindsided by the idea that there's supposed to be an alliance of element worshippers that are in continous contact in the first place.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's the tricky one. The simplest way to do it would be to track down the Mechane. A bunch of high level air clerics might be able to do it, but on the other hand, the ship is probably protected against divination, since Julio has dangerous foes. Near the end of BRitF or the very beginning of UD that was stated on screen: the installation of Scrying bafflers (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html).


As for knowing where the Godsmoot is being held - who says the Creed of Stone hid that from those more closely allied to them than the Churches? They could be in constant contact, or just waiting for the Creed of Stone to report whether they'd made any progress towards equal representation. In that case, a day's silence really would be cause for alarm.
Might be. It might be common knowledge among the elemental faith communities that the godsmoots are known to take a long time ...

[Grendelkin]

I'm completely blindsided by the idea that there's supposed to be an alliance of element worshippers that are in continous contact in the first place.

I know the elemental faiths are usually presented as being opposed to one another, but if you think about it... why? The elements work in opposition, but are all part of the whole, and each augments at least one of the others.
If the clerics of the elements don't have to follow the orders of a jerkass deity, and can really plot their own course, then why wouldn't they team up against the theists who keep denying them equal standing? And who else would they turn to for help and support, if not each other?

[Tzardok]

What befuddles me more is: how do we know that there are any other elemental cults like that creed in the first place? How do we know the Creed of Stone is in any way important and not just one cult of Earth amongst many? How do we know that there are exactly four elemental creeds (don't forget, this is the world that has Titanium elementals), that these four creeds are allied and that these creeds are powerful and influential enough to play any role? Did I miss something in the comic?

[Peelee]

They could commune with the elements to track the Mechane, if not directly, than by mentions of a zeppelin ship headed in the right direction.
We've seen two Hugh level clerics openly talk about how Commune basically doesn't work unless the god takes a deep, personal interest in you, and not even necessarily then. Divination in general are not simple and easy hacks in Stickworld.

Or they could go directly to Firmament, and from there track down Kraagor's Gate as a strange area 'where the land is silent, as though hushed before a great peril'.
Except it's not that. There's a bug ear village right on top of it. So either this finds nothing, or it finds a different thing entirely.

The big issue here and s you arr making assumptions and then assumptions based on those assumptions, and assuming that ij that case, it would absolutely happen immediately. It's a house of cards.

Let's play ^^

* The "secret godsmoot" itself was known to a bunch of people. Demigods' clergy that didn't even bother to make the trip anymore, transportations, escorts. The ushers/keepers were selected from a creed, indicating a will to at least involve them in an organisation capacity, if not a political one. Not-Durkon expected to "find informations" about it simply by asking random questions to random clergymen in a random gnome city. And Grontor was willing to let unrelated people wait outside the main door, so security was not very high. The idea that the other Creeds, which were in the same political agenda than old Grontor, got the memo from him doesn't sound that far fetched.

* The ushers/door security were vamped, at least one of them was torn to shred. Any "friendly cleric neighbor" knocking at the main door would quickly find cause for concern, and the only people able to respond to someone calling and tell them what happened (or that the moot was still in session) were the people initially in the council room. Probably the bodyguards, since the clerics can't exit the council grounds.

* Not sure the bodyguards feel bound to their oath of secrecy (or anything gods-related) right now. Especially the guards of priests whose god voted yes. And Veldrina is a walking, breathing and talking security breach :smallbiggrin:


So the main factor would be : When do the other creeds come knocking when they don't get Gontor's call about their political proposal? (and neither he, nor any member of the cult they might know, answers to Sendings)

If it's a week, the trail is cold and gone. If it's less than a day, they might be able to catch up the Mechane around Firmament (or contact members of the Creeds in Firmament. Although it's likely that dwarves were mostly drawn to the Creed of Stone, whose local chapter has just been exterminated - A fair number of the vamped clerics were dwarves)

Ok i started reading and this seems pretty fun to combat with you. Downside is i just got to thr gym and been doing a few walking lapses so far but need to get more into it so I'll respond much more detailed later!

[Kardwill]

I'm completely blindsided by the idea that there's supposed to be an alliance of element worshippers that are in continous contact in the first place.

Oh, we're totally making them up for the "find the most unlikely faction racing for the gate" contest ;)

But we know, from what Grontor was trying to tell not-Durkon, that there are several non-theistic religions around, that they are not happy with the current situation, and that some of them were lobbying for their inclusion in the godsmoot. And Grontor, a dwarf, was eager to cooperate with freakin' Hel, another "underdog", to get a foot in the door, so cooperation between creeds/orders/philosophies/whatever to have some strength through number sounds like something the Creed of Stone would have tried to establish.

[gbaji]

They could commune with the elements to track the Mechane, if not directly, than by mentions of a zeppelin ship headed in the right direction.
Or they could go directly to Firmament, and from there track down Kraagor's Gate as a strange area 'where the land is silent, as though hushed before a great peril'.

If they could somehow commune with their elements with that level of specificity, couldn't they just commune to detect the presense of the gate and final dungeon within the stone of the Hollow in the first place?

Dunno. Put me down as finding this "extremely far fetched".


As for knowing where the Godsmoot is being held - who says the Creed of Stone hid that from those more closely allied to them than the Churches? They could be in constant contact, or just waiting for the Creed of Stone to report whether they'd made any progress towards equal representation. In that case, a day's silence really would be cause for alarm.

I guess my second objection is: why? What storytelling purpose does adding this extra force into the mix serve? If the only answer is "well, it would be cool to have them show up again", but there's no actual purpose that they serve/provide or resolution that they aid in bringing about, then they are just "kitchen sink" writing and should be avoided.

I mean. If that's what we're doing, then put me down for Solt Lorkyurg's death to have created an outcry and an entire army of gnomes will arrive seeking vengence on Belkar. I mean, it *could* happen, right? And the Angry Gnome Posse (AGP) could certainly have traveled to the north and talked to their bretherin in Tinkertown and learned about where Belkar and his allies were headed in their airship, and gnomes can be any class they want, so they could have nearly unlmited resources and capabilities, in theory. I envision the most epic leveled powerful gnomes the world can bring to bear, just showing up. Any moment now. Just... wait for it...

[Tubercular Ox]

Okay, but the opening of this thread was, "Which group is least likely to appear?" And we already had the guesses that ignored the spirit of the question in favor of as much goofiness as possible. So we're homing in here on the limit of plausibility. Why act like this just because we're coming at it from the unlikely side?

[Peelee]

Okay, but the opening of this thread was, "Which group is least likely to appear?" And we already had the guesses that ignored the spirit of the question in favor of as much goofiness as possible. So we're homing in here on the limit of plausibility. Why act like this just because we're coming at it from the unlikely side?

Well that's easy: because I forgot that was asked.

I withdraw all of my questions/objections.

[KorvinStarmast]

We've seen two Hugh level clerics openly talk about... Fun with typos: was Hugh a high level cleric? Hugh who?

There's a bug ear village right on top of it. A village full of bug ears would be half full of bugs, as far as I can tell.

Anyway, fun with typos. :smallwink:

[Kardwill]

Okay, but the opening of this thread was, "Which group is least likely to appear?" And we already had the guesses that ignored the spirit of the question in favor of as much goofiness as possible. So we're homing in here on the limit of plausibility. Why act like this just because we're coming at it from the unlikely side?

Yeah, if the question was "which group will actually appear to seize the gate", there's not much room for debate : We all know the IFCC is on it (and my money would be on some unholy travesty of the Linear Guild - say, at least Sabine bringing back Nale in some form or another - as their frontline troops, but that's far more speculative)

[brian 333]

Yeah, if the question was "which group will actually appear to seize the gate", there's not much room for debate : We all know the IFCC is on it (and my money would be on some unholy travesty of the Linear Guild - say, at least Sabine bringing back Nale in some form or another - as their frontline troops, but that's far more speculative)

Nale ain't coming back. In any form.

Except in a prequel about Tarquin's rise to power.

[Kardwill]

Nale ain't coming back. In any form.


I said it was pretty risky, but I'm ready to take that bet anyway ^^

The IFCC said that it was time to "get their followers' hads dirty" with a direct action. I'm betting that we'll see familiar faces, and not complete strangers. Sabine and Qarr, of course, but Nale feels right for that too. That would allow a closure to that part of Elan's story.

So yeah, I think Nale and "the vessel" are connected.

But I could be totally wrong. And I'm perfectly fine with that : Rich is a far better writer than me. The story would be pretty boring if I could reliably predict his story beats. :smallbiggrin:

[Tubercular Ox]

Sabine is furious about losing Nale. She's spent significant vacation time doing what must surely be absolutely nothing of value to the plot, while also picking up a vessel. Redcloak has access to True Resurrection, and Roy made a big deal about how hard to find high level casters are back when Durkon died.

The pieces are there, more so than some other things in this thread.

Personally I think Thog is going to be the vessel, but I've flip-flopped on that over time so we'll see.

[Peelee]

Redcloak has access to True Resurrection

Does he?

And more to the point, True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist, as it has no real purpose for players who die in battle (as they can almost always be returned via simple Resurrection) and only ever comes in to play to undo plot points. I prefer to simply treat it as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why.

[Tubercular Ox]

Does he?

Yes, he does, as your quote shows when you look at the context.

[Peelee]

Yes, he does, as your quote shows when you look at the context.

I don't know why I'm surprised that the author literally says "i treat this spell as not available to everyone" and you insist it is available to Redcloak anyway. And yet, i am.

Optimism, thy name is Peelee.

[Kardwill]

Yeah, Laurin implied that it wouldbe impossible to raise Nale when she disintegrated him. I really doubt we'll see Original Flavour Nale again.

His damned soul has been freshly delivered to the Lower Planes, though. And Sabine might be angry/desperate/in love enough to do something stupid to "rescue" him.

[Tubercular Ox]

I don't know why I'm surprised that the author literally says "i treat this spell as not available to everyone" and you insist Redcloak has access to it anyway. And yet, i am.


See? You can ignore the context of a quote and articulate a point without asking passive aggressive questions that force the other guy to invent your argument for you.

I still hate this behavior because it's still low-level abusive. It's not funny and it's not clever. It's just mean.

[Peelee]

See? You can ignore the context of a quote and articulate a point without asking passive aggressive questions that force the other guy to invent your argument for you.

I still hate this behavior because it's still low-level abusive. It's not funny and it's not clever. It's just mean.

This is not abusive, and claiming it is lessens the impact of actual abuse. This wasn't meant to be funny or clever. This was meant to underscore that you ignore and disagree with the author when they comment directly on their own work and openly say in no uncertain terms how they treat certain aspects.

Please, illuminate me to the context that shows the author actually means the exact opposite of what he said.

For me, I'll give you some context in favor of my point (boding mine):

And more to the point, True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist, as it has no real purpose for players who die in battle (as they can almost always be returned via simple Resurrection) and only ever comes in to play to undo plot points. I prefer to simply treat it as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/642211146367107083/1209915462859620462/Screenshot_20240221_112841_Samsung_Internet.jpg?ex =65e8a895&is=65d63395&hm=11d3d88e44e88399d401ed665d32eb431934a9ee9f7ce96 6356eb95cd0cc1f2e&
There you go. Context. Which I deliberately included in the part i quoted.

[gbaji]

Well that's easy: because I forgot that was asked.

I kinda forgot as well. Having covered that base already though, I still go with the Angry Gnome Posse then. :smalltongue:

[Tubercular Ox]

This is not abusive, and claiming it is lessens the impact of actual abuse. This wasn't meant to be funny or clever. This was meant to underscore that you ignore and disagree with the author when they comment directly on their own work and openly say in no uncertain terms how they treat certain aspects.

It failed. All I saw was yet another conversational turn that ends up with people struggling to entertain you at the expense of actually understanding each other, like when Grendelkin got stuck in a loop of inventing stories for you when you could've shortcut to the bigger questions that could've ended the loop.

[Peelee]

It failed. All I saw was yet another attempt to steer the conversation towards people struggling to entertain you at the expense of actually understanding each other, like when you stuck Grendelkin in a loop of inventing stories for you when you could've shortcut to the bigger questions that could've ended the loop.

Then that's on you.

Also, why are you making accusations that i demand you invent my argument or that other people are inventing stories on my behalf (which is incredibly uncharitable and borderline conspiracy theory)? My argument is literally "the author said this". At least one other person seems to agree. I even emphasized context. Meanwhile, you only said "not in context" and refused to elaborate. When I asked you what the context is that shows the author means the exact opposite of what he said, you just complained. If there's anyone "perpetuating a loop", it's you, because you're just griping about the responses instead of showing the context you think proves your case.

[Tubercular Ox]

My argument is literally "the author said this".

No it wasn't! You literally said, "Does he?" You made it homework for me to figure out what you were on about. I had to construct both your side of the argument and my side of the argument if I wanted to continue the conversation. And the first thing you do after that is to try and duck the whole thing by telling people I guessed wrong about what you meant, which is definitely one of the darker advantages of arguing like this in the first place.

[Peelee]

No it wasn't! You literally said, "Does he?" You made it homework for me to figure out what you were on about. I had to construct both your side of the argument and my side of the argument if I wanted to continue the conversation. And the first thing you do after that is to try and duck the whole thing by telling people I guessed wrong about what you meant, which is definitely one of the darker advantages of arguing like this in the first place.

I said "does he" followed with a quote where the author said "I prefer to simply treat [ True Resurrection] as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why."


You should not have needed to guess about what i meant. There should not have been any mystery or ambiguity. This was completely, 100% surface level what-you-see-is-what-you-get.

If you had to construct my side of the argument.... Again, dude, that's on you. In fact, I'll invite criticism here. If anyone at all was confused at what i meant here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25968033&postcount=140), please, feel free to add your voices.

Also, Ox, i note that i asked context is that you claim makes the author mean the opposite of what he said, and you still complain about me instead of giving said context. For someone who takes issue with having to guess and assume what the other person means, you're certainly not doing your argument any favors here.

[Kish]

No it wasn't! You literally said, "Does he?" You made it homework for me to figure out what you were on about.
And then linked the author saying the opposite of what you claimed. In the same post.

If you find "recognize and acknowledge that when Rich says he prefers to treat True Resurrection as unavailable, that means he prefers to treat True Resurrection as unavailable" to be burdensome homework, that is perhaps an issue to be dealt with privately, not a reason to complain about how unfair other people are being.

[Tubercular Ox]

I said "does he" followed with a quote where the author said "I prefer to simply treat [ True Resurrection] as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why."

Which you could've said up front, instead of the "Does he?" There are so many polite things you could've said, none of which are, "Does he?"

The "Does he?" infuriates me. This is a bad thing you are doing. I wish you would stop with me, I wish you would stop with everyone on this board. Telling me, "Hey, I can see that you're angry, but I don't think you should be angry, so let's get back to the part where you tell me stories," does not make me feel better about it.

[Kish]

If you found Peelee's tone so unpleasant that you wanted to engage but not with him, the way to express that was to post...nothing, in reply to him. Not reassert your claim without support, then call him abusive, then try to drag in everyone else on the forum as support for you here. (I certainly do not consent for you to speak for me, Ox. Ever.)

If you actually believe/d that he's violating forum rules, y'might have more of a legitimate problem.

[Peelee]

If you actually believe/d that he's violating forum rules, y'might have more of a legitimate problem.

Fun fact, if anyone ever reports any of my posts, i abstain entirely from anything to do with it and let the rest of the Forum Staff (typically an admin) determine it. If you ever suspect a member of the Forum Staff is violating Forum Rules, you absolutely can and should report the post secure in the knowledge it will be handled appropriately.

[Tzardok]

To get this discussion back on track, True Resurrection was referenced in the comic as something theoretically possible, but practically not available (except maybe Redcloak). (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html)

[KorvinStarmast]

Does he? I have used True Resurrection thrice.
Each time in 5e, each time at level 20 (using an artifact that could do it once per day, but I only had it for a short time) and each time to TR an NPC.
Worked closely with the DM to make sure it was acceptable to do that for each case.
(The first two candidates responded, from the afterlife, that they were not interested in coming back).
In one case, it got us a soul (the sould of a dead elf lady) for a pile of rocks that I had true polymorphed into a young silver dragon. My nefarious purpose was to hope that she would be a good friend/mate to a young copper dragon whom we had met many adventures previously in a different part of the game world.

The other one was to, somewhat to the surprise of the DM, TR a 50-years-dead 9th level cleric from an adventuring party from a campaign a few years (RL) before ours. We had met the three surviving members of that party (now NPCs running a country) and I had an idea that he would help us establish a more secure base/home team as we began a small shipping company. (Of course, I needed him to do a few bits of 'special operations' now and again with some of our support NPCs, which he agreed to readily).

The third was my bard's original love/boyfriend form my back story, who had died defending me from pirates taking over our ship, and who had provided certain plot hooks. I owed him my life, so I gave him his back ...and set him free. He became first mate on a ship and sailed off to find new adventures ... and break more hearts....if you love someone set them free...

While it was worth the effort (my PC is now retired) in terms of world building, I completely agree with Rich on what it does to stories.

His damned soul has been freshly delivered to the Lower Planes, though. And Sabine might be angry/desperate/in love enough to do something stupid to "rescue" him. While I wish to never see Nale on screen again, I can see how Sabine might do that. And I really don't want to see Thog again either.

[Grendelkin]

I'm not eager to see Thog again... but his fate was left uncertain. And if anyone were willing to let Nale co-opt their body, it would be him.

I would like for Elan to have a chance to tell Nale goodbye, and that their mom never stopped loving and missing him. But that's me.

[gbaji]

If you had to construct my side of the argument.... Again, dude, that's on you. In fact, I'll invite criticism here. If anyone at all was confused at what i meant here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25968033&postcount=140), please, feel free to add your voices.

It was clear to me (and probably to most people), what was meant. However, I've discovered that there are people who really do need others to explictly tell them what they are saying, rather than merely pointing to something which should provide the answer/response.

For those people, saying something like "does he?", followed by a quote that clearly shows that he does not, is seen as a passive agressive style response, since you are not, yourself, clearly stating something, but requiring them to extract your position/statement from the quote.

He needed you to literally write "It's abundantly clear from this quote that Rich does not include true resurrection in his world, therefore we can conclude that Redcloack does not have it". The former method requires that he read the quote and figure out what you are saying, while in the later you are clearly making a statement and taking a position yourself. Yes. This should not be necessary, but I've found that it's a common communication issue, particularly for on spectrum folks, since they tend to have a hard time picking up social and communication clues themselves.

And they tend to view this as people making fun of them, or picking on them in some way. Hence the response.

As a side note, just in the relatively brief time I've been posting here, I'm pretty sure I've identified at least three regular posters as having on spectrum communication styles (which doesn't in itself mean anything beyond that, since folks can pick up the communication habits without having any of the other traits). So something maybe to be aware of, especially considering your mod status.

Let me make clear that I'm not trying to out anyone, or make fun of anyone here (or even picking sides). Just observing that there are different styles of communication out there, and that some people do honestly have a difficult time with this style of response. Clues and cues that most people pick up immediately can actually be quite difficult for some to get. Then again, my overly verbose and often repetive style doesn't always seem to help either, so I'm hardly one to try to wear the communication police hat.

[Peelee]

So something maybe to be aware of, especially considering your mod status.

You know, I appreciate that. I'll try to keep it in mind.

[RatElemental]

There you go. Context. Which I deliberately included in the part i quoted.

The rest of that quote does imply that 17th level clerics can cast true resurrection:


From a storytelling point of view, the "Why didn't this person do X?" questions are sort of a waste of time. They didn't do that because something stopped them, obviously. Does it matter what that something was, really? Dragons don't have access to 17th level clerics because they just don't. That's not the way the world works. Assume, if you want, that she asked the Oracle, and the Oracle said there isn't anyone who would be willing to cast it for a black dragon.

And more to the point, True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist, as it has no real purpose for players who die in battle (as they can almost always be returned via simple Resurrection) and only ever comes in to play to undo plot points. I prefer to simply treat it as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why.

(Also, with regards to the Gating a Solar thing: The "fair trade" price a Solar would ask for resurrecting an evil dragon would simply be the mother dragon's own life—because that would be a Good act of self-sacrifice, and the Solar would approve of that. There's no reason to think the mother dragon would be willing to pay that price...and even if she was, she would insist on punishing V first, since her son was relatively weak.)

And as a cleric throwing around 9th level spells (see: implosion) then it stands to reason that Redcloak has access to True Resurrection, a 9th level cleric spell. I don't think you can really argue that a 17th level cleric doesn't have access to themself.

[Peelee]

The rest of that quote does imply that 17th level clerics can cast true resurrection:
It implies that dragons don't have access to 9th level divine spells. And sure, 17th level clerics can cast 9th level spells and could cast True Resurrection, if itbwas available to them. The next part of the post, which i quoted, was explicitly more to the point and stated that the author refuses to give them access to it.

And as a cleric throwing around 9th level spells (see: implosion) then it stands to reason that Redcloak has access to True Resurrection, a 9th level cleric spell. I don't think you can really argue that a 17th level cleric doesn't have access to themself.
I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that a 17th level cleric doesn't have access to this one specific 9th level spell because the author said they don't. It's like how Redcloak knew about psionics before he even knew if they were using them in this world (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html). That fits with a self-aware D&D comic - they may know about D&D facets that may not even be in their world. Given the Giant's hard line in the posted quote, it's certainly fair to say that even if Haley knows that True Resurrection is a spell, nobody in the comic, regardless of what cleric level they are, will ever be able to cast it. Because we're directly told that by the guy writing the story.

[RatElemental]

It implies that dragons don't have access to 9th level divine spells. And sure, 17th level clerics can cast 9th level spells and could cast True Resurrection, if itbwas available to them. The next part of the post, which i quoted, was explicitly more to the point and stated that the author refuses to give them access to it.

I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that a 17th level cleric doesn't have access to this one specific 9th level spell because the author said they don't. It's like how Redcloak knew about psionics before he even knew if they were using them in this world (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html). That fits with a self-aware D&D comic - they may know about D&D facets that may not even be in their world. Given the Giant's hard line in the posted quote, it's certainly fair to say that even if Haley knows that True Resurrection is a spell, nobody in the comic, regardless of what cleric level they are, will ever be able to cast it. Because we're directly told that by the guy writing the story.

It literally says dragons don't have access to 17th level clerics. As well, Haley certainly seems to think (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) a 17th level cleric could do it, she just isn't certain any exist.

I get the feeling Redcloak just doesn't want to raise anyone or hasn't even thought to try (EDIT: Or he doesn't have the diamond dust for it). Who would he even pick? Right-Eye? Would he answer the call? Oona? Bit of a waste to do mid fight with the order, the time she's probably most likely to die if at all.

Further, one of the two primary antagonists of your work having the sole ability in the entire series to raise the dead isn't so much a way to undo plot points as it is a way to introduce them; That they can do it is a challenge to be overcome by the protagonists, not a way for protagonists to cheat death and cheapen the stakes of the battle.

[Peelee]

It literally says dragons don't have access to 17th level clerics.
Whoops, misread that. But even then, again, that doesn't matter, because even if they did, he later says that he treats it as unavailable to everyone.

Are 17th level clerics a part of "everyone"? If yes, then True Resurrection is not available to them.

As well, Haley certainly seems to think (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) a 17th level cleric could do it, she just isn't certain any exist.
Sure. And Haley can also be wrong. Again, Redcloak knew about psions without even knowing if they were using psionics rules in that world. Haley can think whatever she wants to think. That doesn't make it so.

Again, the author has directly said that True Resurrection is unavailable to everyone, and that he will not waste any space in the story to narrate that. I fail to understand any argument that purports that a character has access to a spell that the author has directly, in no uncertain terms, has said nobody has access to.


Further, one of the two primary antagonists of your work having the sole ability in the entire series to raise the dead isn't so much a way to undo plot points as it is a way to introduce them; That they can do it is a challenge to be overcome by the protagonists, not a way for protagonists to cheat death and cheapen the stakes of the battle.. Argue that to the person who believes it's sole purpose is to undo plot points, who is also writing the story. Not to me. It doesn't matter if i agree with him on this. I don't agree with everything he believes. But i also don't think that if he says he will not do something and i think the reasoning is wrong, that he will do something. Like have True Res be available to anyone.

[RatElemental]

Whoops, misread that. But even then, again, that doesn't matter, because even if they did, he later says that he treats it as unavailable to everyone.

Are 17th level clerics a part of "everyone"? If yes, then True Resurrection is not available to them.

Sure. And Haley can also be wrong. Again, Redcloak knew about psions without even knowing if they were using psionics rules in that world. Haley can think whatever she wants to think. That doesn't make it so.

Again, the author has directly said that True Resurrection is unavailable to everyone, and that he will not waste any space in the story to narrate that. I fail to understand any argument that purports that a character has access to a spell that the author has directly, in no uncertain terms, has said nobody has access to.

. Argue that to the person who believes it's sole purpose is to undo plot points, who is also writing the story. Not to me. It doesn't matter if i agree with him on this. I don't agree with everything he believes. But i also don't think that if he says he will not do something and i think the reasoning is wrong, that he will do something. Like have True Res be available to anyone.

I think you're taking his words far too literally (the "everyone" reads as hyperbole or a sort of close enough proclamation to me), but there are other reasons the spell may not be something Redcloak can/will cast. I've already offered three; A lack of targets he thinks is worth it, simply not thinking to try it, and not having the necessary material components on hand. For a few more, he might be opposed to the idea in general or think it's a waste of resources; Xykon did have to order him to raise Jirix and all he needed was a raise dead.

He did say he won't waste screen time explaining why it won't be cast, so we'll never know what the reason Redcloak never casts the spell is. It may in fact be that it doesn't exist, but I still highly doubt it when there are other possible explanations. Whatever the case Rich seems to have filed it away and forgotten about it so there may ultimately be no actual underlying explanation at all.

[Peelee]

I think you're taking his words far too literally

Given how he said he thinks it's a terrible spell that wrecks narratives and how it's only use is to undo plot points, I think I'm taking it as literally as it was meant to be taken.

[RatElemental]

Given how he said he thinks it's a terrible spell and it's sole purpose is to wreck narratives and how it's only use is to undo plot points, I think I'm taking it as literally as it was meant to be taken.

I think the point of his words was to convey "it won't happen" more than "it doesn't exist."

[Peelee]

I think the point of his words was to convey "it won't happen" more than "it doesn't exist."
You also don't think it's a narrative wrecking spell with the sole purpose of undoing plot points.

I could be wrong. It's just that when i see someone condemn something that strongly and then state that he's going to treat it as not available, I'm going to go ahead and believe that person. I see no use in thinking, "well, that's probably hyperbolic and he probably doesn't really mean what he says so even though it won't happen, it totally could".

[Liquor Box]

I don't think that most people who are saying that True Ressurection might exist in-world are disbelieving the Giant's words. They just think they mean a different thing.

"Not available" might mean the spell doesn't exist, or it might mean it does exist but the Giant chooses to assume that circumstances mean the spell is not available to characters who might want to cast it in his story. Both interpretations mean taking the Giant at his word because the words are entirely consistent with both scenarios.



Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
From a storytelling point of view, the "Why didn't this person do X?" questions are sort of a waste of time. They didn't do that because something stopped them, obviously. Does it matter what that something was, really? Dragons don't have access to 17th level clerics because they just don't. That's not the way the world works. Assume, if you want, that she asked the Oracle, and the Oracle said there isn't anyone who would be willing to cast it for a black dragon.

And more to the point, True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist, as it has no real purpose for players who die in battle (as they can almost always be returned via simple Resurrection) and only ever comes in to play to undo plot points. I prefer to simply treat it as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why.

(Also, with regards to the Gating a Solar thing: The "fair trade" price a Solar would ask for resurrecting an evil dragon would simply be the mother dragon's own life—because that would be a Good act of self-sacrifice, and the Solar would approve of that. There's no reason to think the mother dragon would be willing to pay that price...and even if she was, she would insist on punishing V first, since her son was relatively weak.)

How I'd interpret that is the Giant isn't saying True Resurection doesn't exist in OotS world, or even that no character can have it as a spell. That's why, when describing why the dragon didn't cast it, he didn't say that the spell didn't exist in OotS, but gave other potential reasons why the dragon couldn't use it. It's also why Hayley knows about it to obliquely refer to it, and seems to think a high enough level cleric would have it.

But I think he's saying that he wouldn't write it into his story - hence making it unavailable to his characters for one reason or another.

If Redcloak had cause to cast it, he would be able to but "something stopped [him]". If asked what stopped Redcloak didn't cast the spell the Giant might reply as he did above, that it doesn't matter, but the reader can assume some explanation (perhaps that Reddy has insufficient diamonds). In effect meaning the spell is "not available" to him, as the Giant expresses in his second paragraph.

[Kish]

I think everything in the comic, plus even the rest of that post of Rich's, treats True Resurrection as "does exist in the OotS universe."

I also think the ox's proposed scenario (which, incidentally, was heavily implied, not spelled out; what happened to "don't give other people homework, even as minimal as realizing that the rhetorical question goes with the rest of the post?") goes directly against what Rich said there. He is very unlikely to be doing, "This spell has no narrative justification for existing and also the story I have mapped out hinges on it at one point."

[KorvinStarmast]

If Redcloak had cause to cast it, he would be able to but "something stopped [him]". If asked what stopped Redcloak didn't cast the spell the Giant might reply as he did above, that it doesn't matter, but the reader can assume some explanation (perhaps that Reddy has insufficient diamonds). In effect meaning the spell is "not available" to him, as the Giant expresses in his second paragraph. In the case of TDO supplying that spell, TDO might be a bit upset with Redcloak for {some narrative reason} and thus not grant that spell, but still grant another 9th level spell that fits with TDO's purpose. (I am not sure if that's how Rich mechanizes the clerics getting spells, but I've seen a few DMs do that now and again when the relationship between a cleric and their deity frays ...but that's been a few years)

[Tubercular Ox]

I think you're taking his words far too literally

I agree. You can't trust people presenting Rich quotes. I once suggested that Rich follows the rules at least as much as we observe him following the rules, and one person posted a quote from Rich where he says he never follows the rules, then another person posted a quote from Rich where he says everything follows the rules except when he tells us otherwise. Both of them thought they were disproving me.

I looked into it and it turns out, if you tell Rich he's doing the rules wrong and should shape up, he tells you he doesn't care about the rules and will continue writing the story however he wants. But if you tell Rich you love how he handles the rules and he shouldn't change a thing, he will promise to continue implementing the rules however he wants.

So turning to the latest Rich quote, I see right away that the opening question is, "Why didn't the Black Dragon resurrect her son?" which is closer to telling Rich he's done it wrong. My theory is that Rich does not like these questions and answers them with strong wording to forestall any follow up or copycat questions, then people who like shutting down arguments with Rich quotes are drawn to this strong wording because it's harder to end a conversation when Rich admits reasonable exceptions.

Sure enough, the first thing Rich tells us in this context is that "Why didn't X do Y?" questions are bad and we should stop asking them, and the second thing Rich tells us is that he hates it when people try to undo his plots and True Resurrection is a magnet for that.

But when I suggest that Redcloak could resurrect Nale as the culmination of Sabine's love story, none of that context is there. I'm not telling Rich anything he's done is wrong, and I'm not asking him to undo a plot point. It's the opposite: I'm suggesting he could turn True Resurrection into an awesome story of Sabine getting crap done despite the impossibility of her task, if he wanted to.

When the context is, "How could Rich turn bringing Nale back into an actual story?" obviously Redcloak, and probably only Redcloak, has True Resurrection on his spell list, because Rich is not going to dilute the plot with previously unmentioned 17th level casters for exactly the reasons mentioned in his quote.

It's valid to ask if Rich has any real interest in bringing Nale back, but, again, look at the thread we're in.

[gbaji]

But when I suggest that Redcloak could resurrect Nale as the culmination of Sabine's love story, none of that context is there. I'm not telling Rich anything he's done is wrong, and I'm not asking him to undo a plot point. It's the opposite: I'm suggesting he could turn True Resurrection into an awesome story of Sabine getting crap done despite the impossibility of her task, if he wanted to.

Except that, structually, there is no difference between someone asking "Why doesn't the Black Dragon mother find a cleric to cast True Resurrection to get her son back?" and you asking "Why doesn't Sabine find a cleric to cast True Resurrection to get Nale back?"

To the extent that the former is someone telling Rich that what he did was wrong and asking him to undo a plot point, so is the latter. You are telling Rich that his storytelling twist of "Nale is killed and his body disintigreated so he cant be resurrected" is actually bad for his story, and must be undone via the use of a true resurrection spell. When, just as with the dragons, if Rich had wanted Nale to be recovered for some later use in his story, he would not have had his body disintegreated in the first place.

What will presumably happen instead, is that Nale's death will affect Sabine's actions later in the story in some way. What that way may be is not yet known. But giving her an "out" via true resurrection being a spell that clerics can cast will make that future storytelling not work, which is precisely why Rich doesn't like the spell. It would result in Sabine's actions being "find a high level cleric to cast a spell" rather than <whatever he actually wants her to do>. In precisely the same way, if the spell was available for any cleric of high enough level to cast, that would have been what the ABD would have done rather than go after V.


Now. Here's where the basic idea could have merit thoug: I could see this being changed up a bit though, given who Sabine works for and what kind of powers/actions they are engaged in. We don't yet know what/who the artifact and vessel are. If, as some of us have speculated, they somehow interact with the creative power of the prime material plane in some way (sure, just one speculation of many), and the Fiends are seeking to redirect that energy for their own use somehow, I could see Sabine maybe trying her own double cross (or minor "adjustment" to their plans) to use this to recover Nale maybe. Doubly so since it's already been established that the energy that makes up the PMP is also somehow tied in with the concept of souls, worship, free will, etc that mortal beings have but that outsiders and gods do not. I could see Rich allowing the manipulation of that kind of energy/power to allow for true resurrection in a story where he would not allow the standard spell to work/exist.


So... I could see it being something that could happen (or that Sabine might try to make happen). It just wont be as simple as "Redcloak/Cleric casts the spell". I'm also not sure how Sabine gets Redcloak (or a random cleric) to do so in the first place, while I can totally see her trying to figure out how to hijack some function of the artifact/vessel to do so. She's got more or less direct access to those things, right? So.... possible, just not in the direct and standard D&D spell kind of way. It also has the viture of potentially adding to the story, rather than detracting from it. "Sabine finds a cleric and gets Nale resurrected and they move away and live happily ever after" is great for Sabine, but not for the story. "Sabine's drive to recover Nale leads her to modify the Fiend's plans in a minor but significant way" puts a twist directly into the "main plot" of the story and puts all of the 'tagonists right in the middle of it and whatever ramifications it may have. That's "good storytelling".

[RatElemental]

You also don't think it's a narrative wrecking spell with the sole purpose of undoing plot points.

Yes, but the fact that I disagree with the giant's overall stance on the spell does not undermine my entire point. That was a tangentially related aside, I have never once argued that the Giant will use the spell or that he should use the spell, just that the reason isn't that it is impossible in his setting.



I could be wrong. It's just that when i see someone condemn something that strongly and then state that he's going to treat it as not available, I'm going to go ahead and believe that person. I see no use in thinking, "well, that's probably hyperbolic and he probably doesn't really mean what he says so even though it won't happen, it totally could".

I will once again reiterate that I think the strong wording means the spell won't ever see the light of day, I just think you're interpreting "not available" incorrectly.

Peelee, it truly is frustrating to argue with you when you read so far into my and other people's words.

[Tubercular Ox]

Except that, structually, there is no difference between someone asking "Why doesn't the Black Dragon mother find a cleric to cast True Resurrection to get her son back?" and you asking "Why doesn't Sabine find a cleric to cast True Resurrection to get Nale back?"

I stopped reading here, because this is where you stopped talking to me. I didn't ask that question. My entire point was that I wasn't asking that question.

This is why I stopped talking to you last time, too.

[brian 333]

Either way, we are left with players saying, "It would be cool if True Resurrection..." and The Giant saying, "I hate True Resurrection because it breaks plots."

Those two points are irreconcilable. It matters not if Redcloak could cast the spell because The Giant has informed us that he will not.

So, while I am a fan of speculation, this is yet another area of speculation which leads in endless circles.

Good luck.

[gbaji]

I stopped reading here, because this is where you stopped talking to me. I didn't ask that question. My entire point was that I wasn't asking that question.

My counter point is that it's not about whether the statement is phrased as a question, but what the statement is asking or speculating about in the first place. And in both cases (the Dragon and Sabine), it's about Rich having an NPC resolve the issue of a dead loved one via the use of a cleric casting true resurrection. And if Rich's response to that method of recovery was that he isn't going to include true resurrection in his game for one case (the dragon), then it's reasonable to assume that the same response will be true for the other case (Sabine).

I kinda wish you had continued reading my post, because if you had, you'd find that I proposed an alternative means by which Sabine might try to get Nale a form of true resurrection, but that didn't involve the "find a high level cleric to cast it" method that Rich has rejected in his story in the past (and is rare and unique enough not to violate the "plot breaking" standard he dislikes about the spell).

[Kish]

So turning to the latest Rich quote, I see right away that the opening question is, "Why didn't the Black Dragon resurrect her son?" which is closer to telling Rich he's done it wrong. My theory is that Rich does not like these questions and answers them with strong wording to forestall any follow up or copycat questions, then people who like shutting down arguments with Rich quotes are drawn to this strong wording because it's harder to end a conversation when Rich admits reasonable exceptions.

Sure enough, the first thing Rich tells us in this context is that "Why didn't X do Y?" questions are bad and we should stop asking them, and the second thing Rich tells us is that he hates it when people try to undo his plots and True Resurrection is a magnet for that.

Unsurprisingly, I think your interpretation of Rich's motives--essentially that he says not what he means, but what he is currently feeling poked by, and we should ignore what he actually says in favor of attempting to derive his (assumed negative if he's talking at all, I notice!) emotional state--is 1) incorrect, and 2) deeply insulting.

[Tubercular Ox]

Unsurprisingly, I think your interpretation of Rich's motives--essentially that he says not what he means, but what he is currently feeling poked by, and we should ignore what he actually says in favor of attempting to derive his (assumed negative if he's talking at all, I notice!) emotional state--is 1) incorrect, and 2) deeply insulting.

More or less insulting than finding out all your biggest fans think it's easiest to believe that your comic is written without planning or research?

Also, I am arguing that Rich has feelings only to the extent we observe, not to the exclusion of all else. If you think Rich is a slave to his id, show me where that happens.


It also has the viture of potentially adding to the story, rather than detracting from it.

The rules change when something adds to the story instead of detracting from it? You don't say!

We can argue about what adds more to the story instead of whether Rich's rule base will allow him to write something? You don't... wait, no, you did say that earlier. Okay, you win.

But can we have a palate cleanser while I think about your comment? In the spirit of alternative hypothesis formation, do you think there is anything Sabine could be doing, other than bringing back Nale or getting revenge on Tarquin? Others tell me Nale is never coming back, and more others tell me Tarquin is never coming back.

Also, do you think there is any evidence yet to prefer either Sabine coming into the Final Dungeon or her staying in hell? Of course others tell me Sabine is never coming back, but she can still participate in the story from hell if her part of the story is interacting with V when V's on a timeout, and depending on how the vessel and artifact work she may be critical in the Final Dungeon.

[KorvinStarmast]

Of course others tell me Sabine is never coming back, but she can still participate in the story from hell if her part of the story is interacting with V when V's on a timeout, and depending on how the vessel and artifact work she may be critical in the Final Dungeon. What?
She should return with an appropriate vessel in short order. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)
She'll be back.

[Tubercular Ox]

What?
She should return with an appropriate vessel in short order. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)
She'll be back.

I think it came up when we were discussing whether Julia was Julia, Eugene, or Sabine. If it was just one guy expressing a minority opinion, hey, great, but I am really sick of, "We're done with that character," arguments so it sticks with me.

Maybe it's only whether she's coming to the Final Dungeon? I definitely remember the good old, "What would the point be?" argument, and someone suggesting, "She could round out her interactions with Haley."

I dunno, bit of a digression.

[gbaji]

But can we have a palate cleanser while I think about your comment? In the spirit of alternative hypothesis formation, do you think there is anything Sabine could be doing, other than bringing back Nale or getting revenge on Tarquin? Others tell me Nale is never coming back, and more others tell me Tarquin is never coming back.

If Tarquin is shown in the story again, it'll be in some sort of denoument type deal. The main story will end when the crisis with the gates and TE and the Snarl ends.

I don't think Nale will be back at all. Sabine doing something to try to get Nale back is a plot twist that may add something to the story, especially if it interferes with the Fiends plans (perhaps in some small way that gives the Order a window of opportunity to do something about it). Sabine succeeding in getting Nale back accomplishes nothing from a story telling point of view though, so I doubt it'll happen (doesn't mean it wont though).

Grief and anger over the loss of a loved one can be used by an author to provide the motivation for characters do things that create plot twists in stories which, absent that character motivation, might be very hard for the author to justify. Bad authors just hand idiot balls to characters and have them do random things that just happen to create needed plot effects. Good authors set up the motivation for those characters to do those things ahead of time. Rich is a good author. He used the ABD's grief over the death of her son to go after V. That character action set up an entire chain of events which were quite significant for the overall story. If true resurrection existed as a spell any 17th level cleric could cast, it would be much harder to justify the actions of the ABD (and was precisely the point Rich was making in that old post).

We don't yet know what Sabine's grief and anger over the loss of Nale may motivate her to do. But, just as with the ABD, the existence of true resurrection as a spell that can be cast by any 17th level cleric makes it harder to justify whatever other, possibly more extreme or desperate, actions she may decide to take as a result. If Rich wants her part in the story to be taking those actions, then having true resurrection exist as a spell that can be cast by a high enough level cleric also steps on that motivation (just as it would have with the ABD).

And this is precisely why Rich said that the spell "breaks plots".


Also, do you think there is any evidence yet to prefer either Sabine coming into the Final Dungeon or her staying in hell? Of course others tell me Sabine is never coming back, but she can still participate in the story from hell if her part of the story is interacting with V when V's on a timeout, and depending on how the vessel and artifact work she may be critical in the Final Dungeon.

Yeah. I'm quite certain that she will be involved in some direct way in whatever interaction the Fiends engage in at the Final Gate. It's hard to say (but fun to speculate) about what exactly what will be, but yeah, she's one of their more powerful/trusted minions, so it's a good bet she'll be there.


I think it came up when we were discussing whether Julia was Julia, Eugene, or Sabine. If it was just one guy expressing a minority opinion, hey, great, but I am really sick of, "We're done with that character," arguments so it sticks with me.

Maybe it's only whether she's coming to the Final Dungeon? I definitely remember the good old, "What would the point be?" argument, and someone suggesting, "She could round out her interactions with Haley."

I dunno, bit of a digression.

There were a lot of different things said in that thread, IIRC. I don't think anyone argued that Sabine would not be involved at all (it's possible though). I think the primary argument was against it being Sabine pretending to be Julia. And honestly, I don't recall all of the details in terms of what was said.


But yeah. Put me down as "Sabine will be there at the Final Fight". It would be strange for whatever the Fiends are doing not to include her in some way. Plus, as I speculated above, there's the possiblity that she may be involved in some sort of additional plot twist.

[Grendelkin]

I fully expect Sabine to betray Cedric, Lee and Nero for a chance to get Nale back somehow. She enjoys the perks of her job, but Nale getting shanked and his corpse destroyed? That made her truly angry, even if she had been nudging Nale to serve the interests of the IFCC.
Sabine is illicit desire made flesh, and we know what she desires in defiance of what should be expected of her.

[Kish]

More or less insulting than finding out all your biggest fans think it's easiest to believe that your comic is written without planning or research?

Irrelevant question: no one has said that.


Also, I am arguing that Rich has feelings only to the extent we observe, not to the exclusion of all else. If you think Rich is a slave to his id, show me where that happens.

Ox, I'm one of the people arguing for treating Rich's informational statements as information, and you're the one arguing for treating them as a kind of verbal spasm. So, for example, when he said "And more to the point, True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist, as it has no real purpose for players who die in battle (as they can almost always be returned via simple Resurrection) and only ever comes in to play to undo plot points," that contains specific words, which are incompatible with "and also I am five books into writing an epic story in which one of the plot points hinges on True Resurrection." Saying: well, that doesn't count because I'm talking about a brilliant use of True Resurrection, not a bad one! runs into the problem that explicitly denying any such thing as a brilliant use of True Resurrection exists is the essence of what he's saying.

(Also, this is all so unnecessary. If you want to speculate about Nale being brought back with the support of the IFCC, you could just propose that right after Vaarsuvius returned to the mortal world, Lee handed Sabine a bag with a pinch of Nale's disintegrated dust in it. That would be enough for Resurrection, and Laurin's claim that she could make Nale stay dead hinges on no one being in a position to grab dust before it's completely scattered through the desert. This is a case that perfectly supports Rich's argument, where True Resurrection is wholly unnecessary for any legitimate plot use because Resurrection works perfectly well. And even that assumes Nale's original body is important and Sabine isn't just going to grab his soul and stick it in a new body. So many options if the plot calls for Nale to come back, why are you focusing on the one Rich has denied?)

[Tubercular Ox]

If, as some of us have speculated, they somehow interact with the creative power of the prime material plane in some way (sure, just one speculation of many),

It's funny, I've stood up twice for making stuff up in this thread, but I read this one and my first thought is still, "This isn't necessary." You could have cut this out, put in, "And then Rich does something clever," and all of the evidence for the story continues to exist and continues to support the story.

Was there competition for this spot? Or what is the story behind this story?


Ox, I'm one of the people arguing for treating Rich's informational statements as information, and you're the one arguing for treating them as a kind of verbal spasm.

Kish, when I suggested that Rich didn’t like taking advice from his fans about how to write his own comic, I did not realize that this was only possible if he were less stable than a teenager trying to score with a yoga student on top of an exercise ball. Thank you for teaching me that saying what you mean is incompatible with any kind of emotion.

Is it okay if I encourage other people to examine the context of Rich’s quotes before deciding what they mean, or is everyone at risk of turning into a loon the first time they see pixels older than their dog?

And can you help me with my quoting dilemma, now that I know there is no way to understand Rich except through the people who keep all his quotes on hotkey? When I suggest Rich is following a rule, people give me a quote saying he doesn’t follow rules, and when I suggest he’s gone off on his own somewhere, people give me a quote saying he promised to follow the rules. These quotes come from two different groups of people, but they never argue with each other.

Looking at just the quotes, I think Rich might be a Markov chain and either supports the rules or not based on random die rolls. While that explains how he can contradict himself so readily, it doesn’t explain how people know which quote to use at any given time.

It’s possible Rich really does just hate me and everything I have to say, and that wisdom is being transmitted to me by selfless people with unsullied hands, but hate is an emotion and we just established that’s incompatible with Rich passing along real information.

I look forward to learning how people crush the urge to confront the inconsistencies when the people allowed to think use Rich’s quotes to bar every possible outcome.

[Kish]

1) You didn't say "maybe he means what he says but also he has this negative emotion around it," Ox. You said based on his emotional state that the entirety of the factual information in what he said--that he sees no use for True Resurrection--should be treated as not there at all, leaving only expressions of emotional state.
2) If you want me to speculate about why two people you're paraphrasing as "Rich doesn't follow rules" and "Rich promised to follow the rules" can both express disagreement with you without seeming to think they contradict each other, I would guess, because each of them would disagree with your paraphrase of them.

[Tubercular Ox]

It was wrong of me to post my personal dilemma in a context that would put others in a position of having to confirm or deny it without me supplying full confirmation. I would promise to construct all of my arguments in the darkness of my basement, making sure they are fully researched, referenced, and cited before posting them, but then I am not sure how to get the supervision I require to make sure my opinions are correct before posting.

It's a dilemma, but since I have no way to cite my own experience, I guess it cannot be communicated to others.

[ziproot]

> Which group of antagonists is the least likely to appear, if any?

Trigak. He specifically said he would return when least expected.

[Precure]

That would make them the most likely.

[Liquor Box]

And can you help me with my quoting dilemma, now that I know there is no way to understand Rich except through the people who keep all his quotes on hotkey? When I suggest Rich is following a rule, people give me a quote saying he doesn’t follow rules, and when I suggest he’s gone off on his own somewhere, people give me a quote saying he promised to follow the rules. These quotes come from two different groups of people, but they never argue with each other.

I'm not someone who has a library of the Giant's quotes (did there used to be a thread indexing them?), but I don't think they've ever struck me as quite that starkly inconsistent.

Every quote I can remember seeing from his seems roughly consistent with the principle that he generally follows the rules, but will depart from them from time to time when it improves his story.

[Kish]

There still is an Index of the Giant's Comments thread. Rich once called it "incredibly useful."

[Liquor Box]

So there is:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?601004-The-Index-of-the-Giant-s-Comments-VIMaking-Dogma-from-Zapped-Bananas&highlight=Index+of+the+Giant%27s+Comments

[Precure]

He also said that he no longer post on this forum because he say things that people use out of context.


There was a time when I involved myself more in conversations, OOTS-based and otherwise, but that would inevitably lead to me saying something that I didn’t really think through entirely, which would then be plucked out of context and preserved forever as the Word of the Author.

[Peelee]

He also said that he no longer post on this forum because he say things that people use out of context.

I have been informed that I cannot trust that quote.

[Precure]

I have been informed that I cannot trust that quote.

I have been informed that I cannot trust you.

[Peelee]

I have been informed that I cannot trust you.

I think we're talking about the exact same thing. :smallwink:

[Precure]

I think we're talking about the exact same thing. :smallwink:

You claim to be the Word of Rich "The Giant" Burlew?

[brian 333]

You claim to be the Word of Rich "The Giant" Burlew?

Peelee spends far too much time on the forum to be the author. Unless he colors on one device and posts on another simultaneously.

New theory: Peelee and The Author are conjoined twins who simultaneously mod the forum and write the comic.

It all fits! Now how do we explain his personal appearances at conventions and such? Hmm.

Okay, that guy's a paid actor! Done and done!

Wait, doesn't he also draw OotS style portraits at those?

Crap.

Let me work on it, I'm sure I can figure out how to turn my theory based on nothing into an Internet fact.

Edit: I found the answer!
https://64.media.tumblr.com/b496d85c60a5598c8a8c7b048a79c7ca/tumblr_ph31foizNj1qj6sk2o1_400.gif

[Precure]

It's actually a triad of distinct persons with one essence.

The Giant: Rich Burlew himself. The Creator of the comic and this forum.
Peelee: The Word of Rich Burlew and his incarnation amongst the forum.
Kish: Rich Burlew's creative spirit which live within us.

[Tubercular Ox]

Every quote I can remember seeing from his seems roughly consistent with the principle that he generally follows the rules, but will depart from them from time to time when it improves his story.

Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks I was learning the wrong thing about Rich.


So there is:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?601004-The-Index-of-the-Giant-s-Comments-VIMaking-Dogma-from-Zapped-Bananas&highlight=Index+of+the+Giant%27s+Comments

I've had bad experiences with that thread. Once, Rich said a thing, it was a bit complicated, and there was a vote on whether it should be enshrined with the summary, “There is no blue carbuncle.” I posted Rich’s drawing of a blue carbuncle (https://i.giantitp.com/products/CafePress2023/Class_Monster_Forum.png) (ctrl-+ if you can't see the blue stone in its forehead), but the vote went ahead anyways. Thankfully it failed, but people’s argument was that blue carbuncles aren’t important enough to enshrine.

So even if Rich said it, it may not be in the OP, if it is in the OP it may not be summarized properly, and if it is summarized properly, it may not be consistent with what Rich actually does.

Despite that I think it’s a great resource when used respectfully, and Jasdoif himself is respectfully brilliant, but I’m happy if my interaction with it is researching the context of things people try to use against me.

[Peelee]

You claim to be the Word of Rich "The Giant" Burlew?

Never mind, you've completely lost me.

ETA: I was referring to this:
You can't trust people presenting Rich quotes.
Albeit i slightly paraphrased to make it less personal.

[KorvinStarmast]

I will endeavor to become more trustworthy by posting Poor quotes.
"Who has deciev'd thee so oft as thy self?"
"If your head is wax, don't walk in the Sun"
"Pay what you owe, and you'll know what is your own"
"Eat to live; live not to eat"
"Three may keep a secret if two of them are dead"
https://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-poor-richards-almanack/quotes.html#gsc.tab=0

[Precure]

Never mind, you've completely lost me.

You lost me the moment you uttered those words.

[Aquillion]

I fully expect Sabine to betray Cedric, Lee and Nero for a chance to get Nale back somehow. She enjoys the perks of her job, but Nale getting shanked and his corpse destroyed? That made her truly angry, even if she had been nudging Nale to serve the interests of the IFCC.
Sabine is illicit desire made flesh, and we know what she desires in defiance of what should be expected of her.Also, just from a narrative standpoint... Cedric, Lee, and Nero are barely characters. They've only appeared in a handful of pages and we know almost nothing about them (and what we do know implies that they're pretty flat, character-wise.)

Their decisions and the ultimate outcomes of those decisions aren't likely to be *central* to the denouncement. This doesn't mean they won't be a major obstacle at the end but it would make sense for the actually important things to rely on the choices made by major characters connected to them who have been more fleshed-out (eg. V, Sabine, even Qarr.) The fiend's plans are more likely to be backdrop or setup to that.

[Peelee]

You lost me the moment you uttered those words.
Ok.

I will endeavor to become more trustworthy by posting Poor quotes.
"Who has deciev'd thee so oft as thy self?"
"If your head is wax, don't walk in the Sun"
"Pay what you owe, and you'll know what is your own"
"Eat to live; live not to eat"
"Three may keep a secret if two of them are dead"
https://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-poor-richards-almanack/quotes.html#gsc.tab=0

I dunno, I'm pretty sure the guy who wrote those was rich.

[ziproot]

That would make them the most likely.

No, because now someone expects Trigak to return, making it impossible for Trigak to return.

[Peelee]

No, because now someone expects Trigak to return, making it impossible for Trigak to return.

I was told to expect the unexpected but i have to constantly change my expectations!:smalltongue:

[Precure]

Ok.

I dunno, I'm pretty sure the guy who wrote those was rich.

Make sense 'cause the guy wrote this comic is poor.

[KorvinStarmast]

I was told to expect the unexpected but i have to constantly change my expectations!:smalltongue:
Bruce Lee has a different approach to that: kick its butt. (Expect the unexpected was a fairly well-memed line from one of his movies).

[Peelee]

Bruce Lee has a different approach to that: kick its butt. (Expect the unexpected was a fairly well-memed line from one of his movies).

Sure, but that also feeds into that old trope - when the only tool you have is a Bruce Lee, everything looks like a kickable thing.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sure, but that also feeds into that old trope - when the only tool you have is a Bruce Lee, everything looks like a kickable thing. He's not the only tool in those movies ...

[gbaji]

"Eat to live; live not to eat"

Rapidly followed up with:

"Do as I say, not as I do"

[Grendelkin]

The souls from Vaarsuvius's soul splice misadventures will show up and hijack the IFCC's mystery vessel for their own purposes.
These will include a second round with Xykon with Haerta Bloodsoak in charge of battlefield tactics, follow by revenge on the IFCC. World conquest if it's convenient.

[Kardwill]

The souls from Vaarsuvius's soul splice misadventures will show up and hijack the IFCC's mystery vessel for their own purposes.
These will include a second round with Xykon with Haerta Bloodsoak in charge of battlefield tactics, follow by revenge on the IFCC. World conquest if it's convenient.

Oh, yes, how could we overlook Haerta in this thread. She is a named character with a distinctive look, an (ex) powerful bad guy that was roaming freely last time we heard of her, she is linked to a gate-seeking faction, to a PC AND to a major plot point, and yet I think there is NO CHANCE IN HELL Rich will ever bring her back in the comic.

Perfect!

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh, yes, how could we overlook Haerta in this thread. She is a named character with a distinctive look, an (ex) powerful bad guy that was roaming freely last time we heard of her, she is linked to a gate-seeking faction, to a PC AND to a major plot point, and yet I think there is NO CHANCE IN HELL Rich will ever bring her back in the comic.

Perfect! She's not evil, she's just misunderstood. :smallyuk:

[Precure]

Ydranna will show up at last minute to save Xykon's ass.

"What did I tell you about learning to outthink people?"

"I guess Master was right all along. I always needed someone with greater intellect to guide my magic."

"Good thing you learned something from this little adventure of yours at least. Let's return home and return you to your normal self. Unless you prefer being a lich?"

"That would be nice to taste coffee again."

[Grendelkin]

Ydranna showing up in one form or another would be amazing. She'd be pretty old and experienced by now.

[Aquillion]

Obviously Hobgoblin Cleric #2 will return, having ground a bunch of levels and now able to cast 9th level spells. This means he will be able to donate the 9th level spell necessary to seal the gate, thus resolving the plot.