(closed) Evil campain 4-6 players pathfinder/ 3.5 high level

[Stormwolf69]

I was thinking of doing an evil campaign. I was thinking of having the party start at about level 10. The main reason that your group is gathering you was Isekai as a group brought before a Goddess that rejected you and tossed you to the far corners of the badlands. The reason for this is that she thought you were Ugly and cursed you with being unable to speak common.

Well, as long as we agree to a few ground rules I think this could work as it is hear. Example agree to do things as a group. And NO PVP or back stabbing. It is ok to betray NPCs but each other you are off limits to back stab and murder. It should go without saying that Graphic violence is OK. But within the guidelines of the Forum. Also actions as consequences. Right now you are unknown but start doing things and the world will react. And you know that the Goddess that tossed you into the badlands will do something if provoked. For example, you start raiding merchant caravans guard patrols and more guards will start appearing in other caravans. or you might find your face on a wanted poster. with adventures or bounty hunters after you.

Your thoughts

[Lioslaith]

So we were a group before we got scattered to the winds?

[Stormwolf69]

No, you meet each other in the Goddess's throne room as potential champions for her before being rejected and tossed into the wilds. and wound up in the same area. But if it helps you guys could know each other. it is up to you guys if that will make character creation easier.


edit also I was making sure we had some ground rules before posting the main character creation rules.

[Lioslaith]

Interesting... Got a 16 in mind?

[Stormwolf69]

pathfinder first and D&D 3.5

36 point buy in. Gestalt

starting level 10 normal gold for the level of gear.

I will allow leadership and variants but I will only let you start with the cohort and the followers will flock to you over time.


race Note Humans in this world are very thin due to the goddess they are the master race and look down on nonhumans and anyone cursed by the Goddess. if you want to pay humans or something that passes as human but for nonhumans there might be problems.

were to pay here.


other than that it is a good understanding of what the group Conduct and how far they want to go. That is why we are talking it out before we start.

[Lioslaith]

What about running a monster on one side of the gestalt build?

[Yas392]

Very interested.

Will we be able to fight the goddess at some point? Being thrown sideways warrant some payback.

[Infernally Clay]

I do like the idea of playing an Antipaladin//Barbarian, with a focus on fear effects. You don't usually get to play something like that.

[TheAlmightyKue]

Can we do Monsters on one side? and is Dragon Mag stuff allowed?

[namo]

Potentially interested.

The direction of the campaign would be decided by the players / PCs themselves?
We might have murderhobos side by side with ambitious would-be dictators of the world.

Though not necessarily aiming for the goddess herself, a possible idea would be hindering her cult: emptying the coffers, persecuting the faithful, ...

[Triskavanski]

Currently thinking Kitsune Vigilante | ???

My question though as far as anything 3rd party is the legendary vigilante stuff for improving Mystic Bolts from the Warlock archetype of the vigilante

Specifically what I'm looking at is

Charismatic Caster - Legendary Villains: Vigilantes - Makes the Warlock a cha based spontaneous caster
Explosive Bolts- Legendary Villains: Vigilantes - Makes Mystic bolts able to splash, dealing damage in an small area with reflex save
Sniper Bolts - Legendary Villains: Vigilantes - Increases the range of mystic bolts by 15 feet, and further as level increases
Mystic Accuracy - Legendary Villains: Vigilantes - Adds Cha to damage (Because of Charismatic Caster) of mystic bolts and allows them to be paired up with some other feats like clustered shots
Vigilante Casting Savant - Legendary Vigilantes - Allows one to pick up one more vigilante talent. The feat can only be taken once.

[JNAProductions]

Sounds fun, potentially.

[Stormwolf69]

What about running a monster on one side of the gestalt build?

go right a head

As for the goddess herself you have to discover a way to weaken her to force her into her avatar that either you or other powers could end up disposing of her.





The direction of the campaign would be decided by the players / PCs themselves?


that is the nature of these types of campaigns were you are the one the world is reacting to.



Currently thinking Kitsune Vigilante | ???

My question though as far as anything 3rd party is the legendary vigilante stuff for improving Mystic Bolts from the Warlock archetype of the vigilante

Specifically what I'm looking at is

Charismatic Caster - Legendary Villains: Vigilantes - Makes the Warlock a cha based spontaneous caster
Explosive Bolts- Legendary Villains: Vigilantes - Makes Mystic bolts able to splash, dealing damage in an small area with reflex save
Sniper Bolts - Legendary Villains: Vigilantes - Increases the range of mystic bolts by 15 feet, and further as level increases
Mystic Accuracy - Legendary Villains: Vigilantes - Adds Cha to damage (Because of Charismatic Caster) of mystic bolts and allows them to be paired up with some other feats like clustered shots
Vigilante Casting Savant - Legendary Vigilantes - Allows one to pick up one more vigilante talent. The feat can only be taken once.


could you PM me a link to it?

[Talivan]

Posting Interest!, will work on something next year! :smallbiggrin:

[TheAlmightyKue]

I was thinking if we are doing an evil campaign. Maybe an Egophage would be fun or a Contract Devil.
Egophage I might consider doing something like a Sorcerer or Bard due to thier high Cha.
Contract Devil would be a Wizard

So would a body swapping character fit your campaign? Or would a suave deal maker work better?

[JNAProductions]

36 PB for 3.5 or PF?

[Stormwolf69]

the 36 Pb is for pathfinder

[Yas392]

How much backstory do we need for our characters?

[paradox26]

I will express interest in this. I haven't played a properly evil character in a long time.

I know monster races are allowed, but which sort of sources are allowed to pull monsters from? Anything in the pfsrd site for example? The character I am thinking of is a CR 10 Pale Stranger. It is first party Paizo, so is that alright? For reference, my other side of the build will be either a gunslinger or a sorcerer. Which reminds me. What level of guns are allowed for this game?

Also, here is the Pale Stranger's link, so you can look it over before approval: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/pale-stranger

[AvatarVecna]

Tentative interest

[JNAProductions]

Making an Artificer//Scout.

How do we handle pre-game crafting? I might assume it's not allowed at all, but if it is, neat.

[Xavion]

Yeah, I'm curious for more information myself. Both about build rules (combining 3.5 with PF gets janky sometimes, even beyond having to do things like scrap basically all 3.5 content which refers to polymorphing).

How much is the language barrier thing meant to matter? Like, should we just get access to tongues or throw a rank into linguisitics? Or is it meant to be a persistent problem that can't be easily overcome?

Were we meant to be just like, adventurers from other worlds isekai'd into this one and annoyed the goddess grabbing us who dropped us in as is? Normal people isekai'd in, granted powers, and then annoyed her right at the last step? I'm curious for more info about what exactly the setup is. Particularly as it feels like that'd shape how evil we'd be, like if we're evil mostly in that we're on a quest for vengeance against a good aligned goddess that's one thing, but if we're meant to be like, full "I burn orphanages for the lolz" like a demon that's a different level of evil ya know?

[TheAlmightyKue]

I wanted to ask about this 3rd party template
Suzerain Creature CR+1 (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/suzerain-creature-cr-1)

[Xavion]

I wanted to ask about this 3rd party template
Suzerain Creature CR+1 (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/suzerain-creature-cr-1)
Man that template looks hilarious, every ally within 60ft gets to add your Charisma bonus as a morale bonus to all d20 rolls and damage rolls? Definitely one of the most high end abilities I've seen. It does a bunch of other strong stuff too I guess but that aura does seem strong.

[Lioslaith]

I'll go with something stealth based and vampiric.

[namo]

Stormwolf, I hope you're aware you're opening Pandora's box when allowing monsters. :smallsmile:
(cf. the Suzerain...!)
As in, you're going to receive a lot of requests, and the power level will vary wildly.

@all: my understanding is that the DM wants to hash out some fluff before we jump into precise mechanical stuff. Don't scare them away! :smallwink:

Personally, I like the idea of vengeance against the goddess, or at least her church, at first, since she would destroy us with her little finger. So I vote for "disruption & persecution", with an emphasis on the former.

(Technically, this setup could lead to some classic adventuring if we need a thingamajig artifact to ultimately destroy her, but when going evil we might want something different! So I'm setting that aside.)

An alternate goal would be taking over the badlands, and coming back with an army of bandits and monsters.

[Lioslaith]

We could be a sort of black ops team thrust into somewhat leadership type roles for said army. Like a "Well if no one else is going to do it we might as well." type situation.

[Xavion]

How viable vengeance is is determined a lot by the setting, like in the Forgotten Realms a god is an almost impossible being to fight, but they can be fought by a sufficiently powerful adventurer. In Golarion even the most powerful demigods in the setting need literal mountains of minions and a lot of prep to have a shot at fighting a true deity, and a level 10 gestalt adventurer is probably a shock trooper designed to soak some hits and die in that fight. Killing a god is 100% plot fiat there.

Even something simple like is belief important might work. Like is our path to try and conquer kingdoms and exterminate her religion? That might be more doable than directly fighting a god. Of course, this depends on the setting's cosmology, something like Golarion from Pathfinder most gods are self made, to the point where there is maybe only one or two gods in the entire setting who were actually confirmed to be dependent on their worshippers for power.

Beyond the setting stuff, for characters I was thinking maybe some kind of barbarian/monk or the like, angry guy who punches stuff up is simple enough, and at least in pure PF it's definitely one of the stronger non-casters. Mixing in 3.5 muddles some stuff, but it should still be capable. The alignment restrictions are the most annoying part of monk/barb but there's ways to work around that in PF, probably more in 3.5 too, just less knowledgable on its depths than PFs.

[Lioslaith]

So rather than kill the goddess, how about we set out to prove her wrong. Show her what the ugly ones are capable of and prove we are worthy champions?

[samduke]

Interested for certain, any chance of a full Big 16


We could be a sort of black ops team thrust into somewhat leadership type roles for said army. Like a "Well if no one else is going to do it we might as well." type situation.
I like this idea

Questions
is the pathfinder and 3.5 interchangeable ?
as far as 3PP and or 3.5 version 3rd party , dragon magazine, 3.5/PF templates are these allowed?
as far as PF stuff goes are firearms allowed if so what level era ect ?
prestige classes can there be on both sides at the same level ?
are skill point retroactive
what version of feats are we using 3.5 or PF or other ?
Traits, Drawbacks, Flaws for feats, background skills, EitR feat Tax, any other variant rules allowed ?
how are HP calculated

you stated "starting level 10 normal gold for the level of gear." but which version of WBL:
3.5 has 10th as 49,000 gp & PF has 10th as 62,000 gp

edited

[Ancient]

I will submit interest, I am thinking some sort of templated Brain in the Jar//Wizard. Ugly, weird, and totally egomaniacal.

[TheAlmightyKue]

Stormwolf, I hope you're aware you're opening Pandora's box when allowing monsters. :smallsmile:
(cf. the Suzerain...!)
As in, you're going to receive a lot of requests, and the power level will vary wildly.

@all: my understanding is that the DM wants to hash out some fluff before we jump into precise mechanical stuff. Don't scare them away! :smallwink:

Personally, I like the idea of vengeance against the goddess, or at least her church, at first, since she would destroy us with her little finger. So I vote for "disruption & persecution", with an emphasis on the former.

(Technically, this setup could lead to some classic adventuring if we need a thingamajig artifact to ultimately destroy her, but when going evil we might want something different! So I'm setting that aside.)

An alternate goal would be taking over the badlands, and coming back with an army of bandits and monsters.

I agree but I was thinking of going bard with a high Cha and using the Suzerain to buff the entire party, playing purely support and some face stuff.
But yeah I agree we need to discuss fluff. But I am flooded with cool concepts. A wheeling dealing contract devil who uses their contracts to get the team into more advantageous positions of power. A Egophage/Intellect Devourer who sneaks around trying to steal the bodies of people that it would be helpful to have on the parties side.
Fungus Queen as a party buffer, face, and capable of turning enemies into her fungus slaves to help them fill out ranks for missions. After all they are disposable easy come easy go fodder which all villains need.

I am actually really liking both the contract devil and the fungus queen idea. They seem the most fun and could provide the most RP opportunities. They just need a hat of disguise to not look so inhuman. If I go Fungus Queen her name will be Lady (Something) Toadstool just because its funny and Lady Toadstool is kind of what I have been calling her in my head.

[Lioslaith]

Don't forget we are doubly branded monsters by not being human and being cursed by the goddess. We don't really need to try and look much like humans. We just need to show the humans how silly they are thinking they are the master race.

[Triskavanski]

In 3.5 spell compendium, need to get the Chalkboard spell so we can communicate with humans because we cannot speak human language only monster language.

[Lioslaith]

Which brings up an interesting question, is there a "monster" common that is different from the human common?

[Stormwolf69]

As to the home brew that was submitted to me I will allow it but remember it might get used against you down the road.


How much backstory do we need for our characters?

a little bit to get a feel for your characters.


I will express interest in this. I haven't played a properly evil character in a long time.

I know monster races are allowed, but which sort of sources are allowed to pull monsters from? Anything in the pfsrd site for example? The character I am thinking of is a CR 10 Pale Stranger. It is first party Paizo, so is that alright? For reference, my other side of the building will be either a gunslinger or a sorcerer. Which reminds me. What level of guns are allowed for this game?

Also, here is the Pale Stranger's link, so you can look it over before approval: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/pale-stranger

The PFSrd site is ok I am using it to as I don't have all the books.


Making an Artificer//Scout.

How do we handle pre-game crafting? I might assume it's not allowed at all, but if it is, neat.

no pregame crafting



Yeah, I'm curious for more information myself. Both are about build rules (combining 3.5 with PF gets janky sometimes, even beyond having to do things like scrap basically all 3.5 content which refers to polymorphing).

How much is the language barrier thing meant to matter? Like, should we just get access to tongues or throw a rank into linguistics? Or is it meant to be a persistent problem that can't be easily overcome?

Were we meant to be just like, adventurers from other worlds isekai'd into this one and annoyed the goddess grabbing us who dropped us in as is? Normal people isekai'd in, granted powers, and then annoyed her right at the last step? I'm curious for more info about what exactly the setup is. Particularly as it feels like that'd shape how evil we'd be, like if we're evil mostly in that we're on a quest for vengeance against a good-aligned goddess that's one thing, but if we're meant to be like, full "I burn orphanages for the lolz" like a demon that's a different level of evil ya know?

Ok with the polymorphing coming from the Pathfinder rule set. As for the Language barrier, it is meant to be a curse from her. With the right spells, it can be dispelled.
As to what happens with the Goddess. You will be Summoned before a High priest channeling her powers. Heros form another world ready to go. Then brought to a portal to meet the Goddess herself. Well, you are going to start the RPG about 10 min before meeting her so how mad you are about what is going to happen will be up to you.



Interested for certain, any chance of a full Big 16


I like this idea

Questions
1 is the pathfinder and 3.5 interchangeable ?
2 as far as 3PP and or 3.5 version 3rd party , dragon magazine, 3.5/PF templates are these allowed?
3 as far as PF stuff goes are firearms allowed if so what level era ect ?
4 prestige classes can there be on both sides at the same level ?
5 are skill point retroactive
6 what version of feats are we using 3.5 or PF or other ?
7 Traits, Drawbacks, Flaws for feats, background skills, EitR feat Tax, any other variant rules allowed ?
8 how are HP calculated

9 you stated "starting level 10 normal gold for the level of gear." but which version of WBL:
3.5 has 10th as 49,000 gp & PF has 10th as 62,000 gp

edited
1 yes except were asked like polymorph

2 most 3.5 and Pathfinder and The DRAGON Compendium. as well as some already ask homebrew and some things like The Avenger and the Psyic Assassin.

3. Fire arms are Emerging Guns: Firearms become more common. They are mass-produced by small guilds, lone gunsmiths, dwarven clans, or maybe even a nation or two—the secret is slipping out, and the occasional rare adventurer uses guns. The baseline gunslinger rules and the ammunition prices given in this chapter are for this type of campaign. Early firearms are available, but are relatively rare. Adventurers who want to use guns must take the Gunsmithing feat just to make them feasible weapons. Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items—the stuff of high-level treasure troves. Or you might have to End up building the higher-end guns your self.

4 I will allow it.

5 I will allow at settlements a way to retrain skill points but it will cost you. Both Gold and time.

6. both in most cases.

7 Flaws for feats I will give a max of 2

8 full hp + Constitution moddifier.

[samduke]

@Stormwolf69

okay I am looking at
Dread Vampire (CR +3)[3pp] https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dread-vampire-cr-3/

If allowed and I use it does it cost me levels IE like level adjustment in 3.5 ?


and then this was not addressed

9 you stated "starting level 10 normal gold for the level of gear." but which version of WBL:
3.5 has 10th as 49,000 gp & PF has 10th as 62,000 gp

Sorry I think I need to clarify
6 what version of feats are we using 3.5 or PF or other ?

What I ment was are we using feat progression like 3.5 or like pathfinder or other

edited

[Stormwolf69]

okay I am looking at
Dread Vampire (CR +3)[3pp] https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dread-vampire-cr-3/

ok

If allowed and I use it does it cost me levels IE like level adjustment in 3.5 ?

PF has 10th as 62,000 gp


6 the version of feats are we using 3.5 note on leadership feat pathfinder has some variants example Vile Leadership or undead leadership is allowed.

edited[/QUOTE]

[TheAlmightyKue]

Not to double post about it but What of the Suzerain Template? just asking so I know for sure.
Suzerain Creature CR +1 (3PP) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/suzerain-creature-cr-1/)
Just wanted a yay or nah on it so I could move forward.

[Stormwolf69]

Not to double post about it but What of the Suzerain Template? just asking so I know for sure.
Suzerain Creature CR +1 (3PP) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/suzerain-creature-cr-1/)
Just wanted a yay or nah on it so I could move forward.

yes, I am allowing it. but remember it might get used against you.

[TheAlmightyKue]

yes, I am allowing it. but remember it might get used against you.

Thats ominous but sounds like a lot of fun.

[Xavion]

So Suzerain is a thing, so just assume a +10 to all rolls for both players and monsters essentially forever is possible then. Plus the slew of other bonuses, but even at level 10 that's a pretty easy +10 to essentially all rolls ever.

Hmm... does make anything using any other source of morale bonus worse, have to think a bit on how this affects build. Probably makes any save based ability or spell worse if enemies could easily be running around with a +10 to all saves, but attacks are better cause +10 to attack rolls. Feels like this is definitely gonna get weird.

[Stormwolf69]

Also given that she will drop you from a very very high place you might want to get a Feather Falling item.

[TheAlmightyKue]

So Suzerain is a thing, so just assume a +10 to all rolls for both players and monsters essentially forever is possible then. Plus the slew of other bonuses, but even at level 10 that's a pretty easy +10 to essentially all rolls ever.

Hmm... does make anything using any other source of morale bonus worse, have to think a bit on how this affects build. Probably makes any save based ability or spell worse if enemies could easily be running around with a +10 to all saves, but attacks are better cause +10 to attack rolls. Feels like this is definitely gonna get weird.
Very true, Allies get the bonus from Cha. So maybe will run into other high Cha enemies who can use it too.
I am worried if I overpower this now it will result in me being dropped out of contention but also if everyone builds around it and its not there, it leaves a weird hole.
Much to think about.

[Kallimakus]

Posting interest.

I have a question regarding the isekai element. Did we come from the same world, or as potential champions gathered from a multitude of worlds to serve as the champions of this Goddess?
And the other question is about the beauty standard. Is something like a vampire, or just a non-human humanoid sufficient, or should we be fungal queens, skeletons, dragon-type monsters or the like?

Might be looking at a half-dragon (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/half-dragon/) as a possibility.

From a practical sense, do templates 'cost' levels from one side of gestalt, both or neither?

[TheAlmightyKue]

Posting interest.

I have a question regarding the isekai element. Did we come from the same world, or as potential champions gathered from a multitude of worlds to serve as the champions of this Goddess?
And the other question is about the beauty standard. Is something like a vampire, or just a non-human humanoid sufficient, or should we be fungal queens, skeletons, dragon-type monsters or the like?

Might be looking at a half-dragon (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/half-dragon/) as a possibility.

From a practical sense, do templates 'cost' levels from one side of gestalt, both or neither?

This is a good point. Where we isekaied from say the normal human world we know into this world but as monsters. "That time I was reincarnated as a slime" style. Where we are not really aware of the normal behavior of this world, and are finding out everything on our own. Or are we from some variation of the world and just alien to this world.

Edit: Anyone think a 50 Charisma is too much?

[Frendle]

Expressing interest. Have an idea for an evil build I’ve been kicking around for a while.

[Infernally Clay]

This is a good point. Where we isekaied from say the normal human world we know into this world but as monsters. "That time I was reincarnated as a slime" style. Where we are not really aware of the normal behavior of this world, and are finding out everything on our own. Or are we from some variation of the world and just alien to this world.

Edit: Anyone think a 50 Charisma is too much?

How do you get fifty charisma at level 10? D:

[JNAProductions]

How do you get fifty charisma at level 10? D:

Witchcraft!

[TheAlmightyKue]

Fungus Queen is pretty stacked on Cha to start, added in the 18 from Point buy, and +6 from Suzerain I am already sitting 38 +2 from lvl ups, +6 from Item its 46. If I did just a little shuffle of Young+Advance+Suzerain to make her a "Princess" Toadstool rather than a queen well that +4 from advanced bumps that up to 50.

So do I stack templates to make the joke of Princess Toadstool or not and be just 46

[Xavion]

Very true, Allies get the bonus from Cha. So maybe will run into other high Cha enemies who can use it too.
I am worried if I overpower this now it will result in me being dropped out of contention but also if everyone builds around it and its not there, it leaves a weird hole.
Much to think about.

It's just such a hideously large bonus that applies to essentially every dice roll you'll ever make that it's polarising. As said like, how does you play around something like enemies randomly having like a +10 bonus to all rolls short of trying to avoid abilities that ever allow them to make rolls? And it goes both ways obviously too. It possibly also makes you a huge magnet for attacks since it's apparently obvious someone is a Suzerain just by looking at them, and being obviously the source of like a third of peoples stats seems likely to make you a huge target. AC is even less useful than normal for similar reasons, the enemy is the one rolling vs your number, so the side with the Suzerain has a huge advantage.

Then again, we also get +10 to initiative always so you know, fights might just be a joke where you instantly vaporize every enemy until we come across an enemy Suzerain and you just ganked immediately due to the threat. It's a weird one. Like, it's incredibly powerful, but it'll draw a lot of ire as you'll basically always the number one target, and since the ability lasts as long as you're alive you don't get an easy out like just getting KO'd, enemies would be strongly incentivised to actively kill you, including to the point of attacking you if you're down. So maybe a more defensive build is wanted for it?

Also the inspire greatness ability might straight up not work as written, I suspect the authors were just mass porting whatever 3.5 books it's based on to PF and well, barely cared to read the PF rules. PF changing from uses per day to rounds per day for stuff like bardic performance and rage was one of the more notable changes for those classes, so getting an amount of uses per day of an ability that doesn't measure itself in uses per day leaves it unknown how you even use it.

The +10 is based on a relatively reasonable value of 30 Cha too, if you get it higher everything gets even more wonky. Like with the mentioned 50 then what, we should be assuming too enemies can be running around with +20s to every roll? And that ability boosts initiative too, so likely basically every fight devolves to "Who kills the enemy Suzerain first?" or "Who bombed the other from beyond visible range using artillery?" Stealth is less effective, the enemies get the +20 to perception for being near their Suzerain, while your allies only do if you're close so you'd have to be part of the stealthy group to have a shot but as mentioned seperating yourself from the group probably a bad idea because you are also the number 1 target.

[samduke]

@Stormwolf69

I guess I should request 3.0 stuff as some are converted to 3.5 and others not

Can I use the Feral creature template from savage species p115?

[Lioslaith]

I like powerful builds but even I think that suzerain is a little silly. Is it predicated on being a follower of the creature?

[Xavion]

I like powerful builds but even I think that suzerain is a little silly. Is it predicated on being a follower of the creature?

Only the ability to share teamwork feats is limited to followers and cohorts, the big buff ability in all allies get to add your Cha to every roll they'll ever make and Inspire Greatness with ?? uses work on any ally.

[Lioslaith]

Yep, silly. lol

[TheAlmightyKue]

I like powerful builds but even I think that suzerain is a little silly. Is it predicated on being a follower of the creature?

You get the Cha as Morale Bonus if you are an Ally of the Suzerain and within 60 ft. So lets go with the 50, if you are her ally and are within 60 ft of her you get a +20 to Atk, Dmg, Skill Checks, Ability Checks, and Saves. So fighting as a unit makes you a buzzsaw as you can cut through virtually any normal force with ease and enemy save or suck spells will all fail (lowest you can have is a 23 without a penalty to an ability score)

I admit its a lot, I asked because its fun but yeah it can turn this into rocket tag very very quickly as stated above with just everyone focusing on the Suzerain.

[JNAProductions]

You get the Cha as Morale Bonus if you are an Ally of the Suzerain and within 60 ft. So lets go with the 50, if you are her ally and are within 60 ft of her you get a +20 to Atk, Dmg, Skill Checks, Ability Checks, and Saves. So fighting as a unit makes you a buzzsaw as you can cut through virtually any normal force with ease and enemy save or suck spells will all fail (lowest you can have is a 23 without a penalty to an ability score)

I admit its a lot, I asked because its fun but yeah it can turn this into rocket tag very very quickly as stated above with just everyone focusing on the Suzerain.

I don't think using it is a good idea. Too binary.

[TheAlmightyKue]

I don't think using it is a good idea. Too binary.

Hey I am open to that being closed off I was asking because its a wild ability that can make the party really powerful. But it can be easily too much.

Green Warden CR +1 (3PP) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/green-warden-cr-1) maybe this is a better template, still powerful but not nearly as busted.

[Talivan]

Is Path of War allowed?

[Xavion]

Hey I am open to that being closed off I was asking because its a wild ability that can make the party really powerful. But it can be easily too much.

Green Warden CR +1 (3PP) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/green-warden-cr-1) maybe this is a better template, still powerful but not nearly as busted.
There's a lot of 1pp templates too depending on what your actual goal is, could help give suggestions if you elaborated.

Of course, we'd need rules first on how PF monsters or templates will work to properly judge, like based on the 3.5 rules a monsters or templates CR adjustment is not inherently equal to how many levels its worth, in fact most options tended to be worth more in level adjustment than their CR in my experience.

[Lioslaith]

Have we made any progress towards what we are going to be doing as a group? All I am seeing are mechanical questions.

[JNAProductions]

Consolidate power in the badlands. Wage war against the humans. Conquer the world.

[Stormwolf69]

Can I use the Feral creature template from savage species p115?

ok



Is Path of War allowed?

ok


You get the Cha as Morale Bonus if you are an Ally of the Suzerain and within 60 ft. So lets go with the 50, if you are her ally and are within 60 ft of her you get a +20 to Atk, Dmg, Skill Checks, Ability Checks, and Saves. So fighting as a unit makes you a buzzsaw as you can cut through virtually any normal force with ease and enemy save or suck spells will all fail (lowest you can have is a 23 without a penalty to an ability score)

I admit its a lot, I asked because its fun but yeah it can turn this into rocket tag very very quickly as stated above with just everyone focusing on the Suzerain.


I am starting to think this might be game-breaking.

[TheAlmightyKue]

There's a lot of 1pp templates too depending on what your actual goal is, could help give suggestions if you elaborated.

Of course, we'd need rules first on how PF monsters or templates will work to properly judge, like based on the 3.5 rules a monsters or templates CR adjustment is not inherently equal to how many levels its worth, in fact most options tended to be worth more in level adjustment than their CR in my experience.

Level adjustment is a purely 3.5 thing though. I believe they did say we were using PF as the base with 3.5 mixed in. In PF CR = lvl.

[TheAlmightyKue]

I am starting to think this might be game-breaking.
I agree which is why I agreed to drop it because its just too much.

[AvatarVecna]

Stormwolf69, what kind of stuff would you like to have figured out before we get into the weeds of chargen rules and homebrew requests and all that nonsense?

[Xavion]

Level adjustment is a purely 3.5 thing though. I believe they did say we were using PF as the base with 3.5 mixed in. In PF CR = lvl.

Right, but all rules for how to play monsters come from 3.5 and are based on level adjustment, if we're using the PF rules on how to play monsters and apply templates in place of progression for PCs then the answer is just "You can't. There are no rules to let you."

[Lioslaith]

Consolidate power in the badlands. Wage war against the humans. Conquer the world.

So we are a group of individuals (prone to evil) that were summoned to the presence of this goddess then summarily rejected for being too ugly to become her champions and now we find ourselves cast into the badlands. This causes us to decide to unify some forces of the badlands to wage war on the more civilized portions of the world.

[TheAlmightyKue]

Right, but all rules for how to play monsters come from 3.5 and are based on level adjustment, if we're using the PF rules on how to play monsters and apply templates in place of progression for PCs then the answer is just "You can't. There are no rules to let you."
factually untrue. You can play ANY race in PF you just use their CR as a level adjustment, A CR 1 Drow Noble can begin play at lvl 2 as a 1st level character. Its the Gestalt rules that allow for people to play higher level characters.

[AvatarVecna]

factually untrue. You can play ANY race in PF you just use their CR as a level adjustment, A CR 1 Drow Noble can begin play at lvl 2 as a 1st level character. Its the Gestalt rules that allow for people to play higher level characters.

Firstly: while PF templates could be said to use CR as equivalent to LA, if one is playing a monster, CR is actually usually equivalent to ECL, at least usually. If one wished to play a Pale Stranger, for instance, that has 15 HD and CR 10; normally when something like that is allowed, it would be equivalent to ECL 10, not ECL 25, because CR does not equal LA, it equals ECL.

Secondly: the reason I say "when something like that is allowed" is because by default it's not allowed. There are no rules permitting players to play monsters in Pathfinder 1e. Even templates are off-limits without DM approval. Even if one were to approve it, there's not really guidance; the "treat the CR increase from templates as LA" or "treat the monster's CR as ECL" is pure houserule/homebrew that's become popular in the community, but there's is absolutely positively zero actual rules backing that up, unlike 3.5 where there's a mountain of rules spelling out exactly how much playing a monster sucks compared to playing a character.

Feel free to quote a PF book saying otherwise, if you can find one.

[Triskavanski]

Essentially what I'm understanding here is that the goddess believes only in beauty. All the humans in her world thusly are very good looking, and we're not exactly repulsive (or rather don't have to be) but instead we're plain and ordinary. Like Jafar in Twisted. We're sent off because we're ultimately just so plain and ordinary. (if not downright repulsive)

[JNAProductions]

Or because RAT!

Bessel (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13BTXECvhnDi-9fmvzO7KNF71NFVUMGw9Sx2hF8Ye6XU/edit?usp=sharing) being rat, of course. :P

[Stormwolf69]

Stormwolf69, what kind of stuff would you like to have figured out before we get into the weeds of charge rules and homebrew requests and all that nonsense?

the only thing that I am more concerned with in this type of RP is someone going over the line that is. So that is why there is no hard feelings later.

[Lioslaith]

Well, if chosen, that’s one thing I certainly will not do.

[Xavion]

the only thing that I am more concerned with in this type of RP is someone going over the line that is. So that is why there is no hard feelings later.
As said I think this is a case of just being clear with players what their role is, there's a big gap between "evil because trying to fight the forces of good" and "burn down orphanges for the lolz". Just be clear roughly where people should tend towards on that scale.

[samduke]

@Stormwolf69

Were you allowing Spheres of Power & Might stuff ?

[TheAlmightyKue]

@stormwolf69

I am curious how would you read/rule this ability
Scroll Mastery (Su) All uniilas possess Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat. An uniila is treated as knowing all spells of 6th level or lower in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and can create scrolls of any of those spells. Whether an uniila knows rarer magic is decided by the GM.

[Yas392]

So we are a group of individuals (prone to evil) that were summoned to the presence of this goddess then summarily rejected for being too ugly to become her champions and now we find ourselves cast into the badlands. This causes us to decide to unify some forces of the badlands to wage war on the more civilized portions of the world.

Without angering the goddess until we can drag her down to our level and fight her. Evil with standards. Wanton destruction is a no goal. Not without pissing off the higher power that gathered us and tossed us away like trash because we're ugly, having her hover over us and exact divine retribution at her whim. That is the base of my character.


2 most 3.5 and Pathfinder and The DRAGON Compendium. as well as some already ask homebrew and some things like The Avenger and the Psyic Assassin.

Does this apply for templates or as a whole? If apply to template only, can we take dragon magazine feats if we can source it by quoting the feat?

[Stormwolf69]

Without angering the goddess until we can drag her down to our level and fight her. Evil with standards. Wanton destruction is a no goal. Not without pissing off the higher power that gathered us and tossed us away like trash because we're ugly, having her hover over us and exact divine retribution at her whim. That is the base of my character.



Does this apply for templates or as a whole? If apply to template only, can we take Dragon Magazine feats if we can source it by quoting the feat?

well if I have the Dragon Mag on you could post the source what pg and magazine number and I will review it.



@stormwolf69

I am curious how would you read/rule this ability
Scroll Mastery (Su) All uniilas possess Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat. An uniila is treated as knowing all spells of 6th level or lower in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and can create scrolls of any of those spells. Whether an uniila knows rarer magic is decided by the GM.




@Stormwolf69

Were you allowing Spheres of Power & Might stuff ?

do you mean like these ones? https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/



Firstly: while PF templates could be said to use CR as equivalent to LA, if one is playing a monster, CR is actually usually equivalent to ECL, at least usually. If one wished to play a Pale Stranger, for instance, that has 15 HD and CR 10; normally when something like that is allowed, it would be equivalent to ECL 10, not ECL 25, because CR does not equal LA, it equals ECL.

Secondly: the reason I say "when something like that is allowed" is because by default it's not allowed. There are no rules permitting players to play monsters in Pathfinder 1e. Even templates are off-limits without DM approval. Even if one were to approve it, there's not really guidance; the "treat the CR increase from templates as LA" or "treat the monster's CR as ECL" is pure houserule/homebrew that's become popular in the community, but there's is absolutely positively zero actual rules backing that up, unlike 3.5 where there's a mountain of rules spelling out exactly how much playing a monster sucks compared to playing a character.

Feel free to quote a PF book saying otherwise, if you can find one.

I think that we will go with the D&D rules on that one. As I think it would be easier. what does everyone else think ?


Also, I think I might close it off to new interests before we get swamped with players.

[Yas392]

well if I have the Dragon Mag on you could post the source what pg and magazine number and I will review it.

Haven't got a straight answer. That is overall, right? Not just templates?

[TheAlmightyKue]

well if I have the Dragon Mag on you could post the source what pg and magazine number and I will review it.








do you mean like these ones? https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/




I think that we will go with the D&D rules on that one. As I think it would be easier. what does everyone else think ?


Also, I think I might close it off to new interests before we get swamped with players.
Ok so I didn't see anything as a reply. But also with the D&D rules, does that mean CR+HD for overall level?

[Stormwolf69]

Haven't got a straight answer. That is overall, right? Not just templates?

overall when it comes to things from Dragon Mag in general. that way I can review it.


I am curious how would you read/rule this ability
Scroll Mastery (Su) All uniilas possess Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat. An unique is treated as knowing all spells of 6th level or lower in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and can create scrolls of any of those spells. Whether an uniila knows rarer magic is decided by the GM.

sorry missed that one. From what I am reading you can make any scroll from level 6 and down. ok For level 7 and hight, you will need another scroll or a spell book. If I understand it correct?

[samduke]

do you mean like these ones? https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/


well yes that is the power side and then the might side has other choices

[TheAlmightyKue]

I am curious how would you read/rule this ability
Scroll Mastery (Su) All uniilas possess Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat. An Uniila is treated as knowing all spells of 6th level or lower in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and can create scrolls of any of those spells. Whether an uniila knows rarer magic is decided by the GM.

sorry missed that one. From what I am reading you can make any scroll from level 6 and down. ok For level 7 and hight, you will need another scroll or a spell book. If I understand it correct?

I am reading it kind of the same. So the character can make a scroll of ANY special frol lvl 6 and lower, since it says they are treated as knowing all spells of 6th level or lower. But like this creature has 8th level sorcerer casting so it can't possible mean its treated as knowing all spells for the spells known feature right? That would be insane and its not shown in the stat block, but like this ability is confusing. I took it to mean it can make any spell scroll from 6th level or lower, even divine spells.

But lets say I make this character a Wizard or Witch, This can't mean that they would get those spells in their book/familiar right? I mean they could teach them and learn nearly every spell with enough gold and time though right?

[AvatarVecna]

Custom races kosher or no?

[Stormwolf69]

well yes that is the power side and then the might side has other choices

like these ones https://docs.google.com/document/d/12JdS1cFoSYvT9Sq43AuF0zNenIQH42DVRO3Zexn9RZA/edit




I am reading it kind of the same. So the character can make a scroll of ANY special frol lvl 6 and lower, since it says they are treated as knowing all spells of 6th level or lower. But like this creature has 8th level sorcerer casting so it can't possible mean its treated as knowing all spells for the spells known feature right? That would be insane and its not shown in the stat block, but like this ability is confusing. I took it to mean it can make any spell scroll from 6th level or lower, even divine spells.

But lets say I make this character a Wizard or Witch, shouldn't this also mean they effectively have all spells from 6th level or lower in their book/familiar?


ok unless a rule layer is going to find me an FAQ stating different. you can make the scrolls 6 and down 7 up you need to either know the scroll in question or copy from some were.



Custom races kosher or no?

I want to review it first. to see if it will fit with the world.

[Da'Shain]

I think that we will go with the D&D rules on that one. As I think it would be easier. what does everyone else think ?To be clear, does that mean that only monsters/templates with a listed level adjustment are allowed, so only D&D 3.5 ones? I'm fine with that, just making sure I understand.

[samduke]

like these ones https://docs.google.com/document/d/12JdS1cFoSYvT9Sq43AuF0zNenIQH42DVRO3Zexn9RZA/edit


yes like those I would link the wikidot but I am not sure that is kosher

[JNAProductions]

yes like those I would link the wikidot but I am not sure that is kosher

You can link the Wiki (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/start)-it's a free, legal resource.

[Stormwolf69]

You can link the Wiki (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/start)-it's a free, legal resource.

Yes, now that I found the right one.

[AvatarVecna]

I want to review it first. to see if it will fit with the world.

Mostly I wanted to play an orc that doesn't...suck quite so hard. Standard races are up to 10 RP, even if it's not a level bump until 20 RP, so I'll aim for 10.

Basics (1)
Type (0): Humanoid (orc)
Size (0): Medium
Speed (0): Normal
Attributes (1): Specialized (Str +2/Con +2/Cha -2)
Languages (0): Standard

Attribute Traits (4)
4: Advanced Strength

Defense Traits (3)
1: Fearless
2: Natural Armor

Senses Traits (2)
2: Darkvision 60 ft

Ferocity is expensive and not all that good. Ditching it gives room for slightly better Con/Int/Wis, as well as +1 NA, a bonus against fear, and not being dazzled in the light.

EDIT: Oh yeah and ditched weapon familiarity too. If you don't like that, can switch Natural Armor out and switch that back in.

[samduke]

@Stormwolf69
okay I will run this past you before I put a ton of effort into it, just to make certain everything is okay for use.

Bog Nixie

Track 1
(CR 10)
(Cr3)Bog Nixie monster
(Cr3)Dread Vampire template
(LA1)Ferral template
(Cr1)Simple advanced template

Paladin 2

//

Track 2
Sentinel 10 <Spheres of Might>

[TheAlmightyKue]

Enola (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867030) - Cabal Devil Witch. I don't have a history per say only because I am not sure about the Isekai. I kind of imply that she was not always a devil before, but the summoning of her through the universe by this goddess changed her. Ill add spells if picked thats a lot of work after all, especially since I can add loads of spells to her imp familiar for some gp.

[Stormwolf69]

@Stormwolf69
okay I will run this past you before I put a ton of effort into it, just to make certain everything is okay for use.

Bog Nixie

Track 1
(CR 10)
(Cr3)Bog Nixie monster
(Cr3)Dread Vampire template
(LA1)Ferral template
(Cr1)Simple advanced template

Paladin 2

//

Track 2
Sentinel 10 <Spheres of Might>


ok lets see you have a one track that is 8 of templates and the other 10 ranks in sentinel

[Stormwolf69]

Mostly I wanted to play an orc that doesn't...suck quite so hard. Standard races are up to 10 RP, even if it's not a level bump until 20 RP, so I'll aim for 10.

Basics (1)
Type (0): Humanoid (orc)
Size (0): Medium
Speed (0): Normal
Attributes (1): Specialized (Str +2/Con +2/Cha -2)
Languages (0): Standard

Attribute Traits (4)
4: Advanced Strength

Defense Traits (3)
1: Fearless
2: Natural Armor

Senses Traits (2)
2: Darkvision 60 ft

Ferocity is expensive and not all that good. Ditching it gives room for slightly better Con/Int/Wis, as well as +1 NA, a bonus against fear, and not being dazzled in the light.

EDIT: Oh yeah and ditched weapon familiarity too. If you don't like that, can switch Natural Armor out and switch that back in.

I will allow it.

[Stormwolf69]

Enola (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867030) - Cabal Devil Witch. I don't have a history per say only because I am not sure about the Isekai. I kind of imply that she was not always a devil before, but the summoning of her through the universe by this goddess changed her. Ill add spells if picked thats a lot of work after all, especially since I can add loads of spells to her imp familiar for some gp.


We could just go with something like that if Something went wrong with the spell. To summon someone from another world is a very very complex spell. and she would up with that as her new form.

[TheAlmightyKue]

We could just go with something like that if Something went wrong with the spell. To summon someone from another world is a very very complex spell. and she would up with that as her new form.

Thats kind of what my brain went too but I wanted to be sure. So I will add that into the information. Thanks for the speedy replies.

[AvatarVecna]

Can we combine items using the MIC rules?

[Stormwolf69]

Can we combine items using the MIC rules?

yes you can I have no problem with it.

[AvatarVecna]

Mostly mechanically ready: Viggu (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867083), the ugliest orc lumberjack. His special skills include chopping down 100 enormous trees per hour, and turning even the simplest of financial transactions as awkward as a hostage negotiation.

[Talivan]

Concept will be a Martial warrior who use Intimidating tactics to demoralize/Infuse fear to enemies and also Iaijutsu to cut them in half:

Antipaladin 2 / Warlord 8 (Bushi) // Oracle (Spheres) 10

Requesting:
- Iaijutsu Focus Skill (3.0)
- Unseelie Fey Template
- Magic Blooded Template
- Warlord's Bonus Feats back in place of: Tactical Assistance (Ex) And Force of Personality (Ex)
- Void Mystery

[Yas392]

overall when it comes to things from Dragon Mag in general. that way I can review it.

Leaving this here for approval. This is the only bit I want.



You can sacrifice your health to gain an advantage in combat.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6, Iron Will, Power Attack.
Benefit: You may sacrifice a number of hit points (maximum sacrifice equals your character level), taking them from your current hit point total as if you had lost them to damage. For every two hit points so sacrificed, you gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls for i round. Hit points sacrificed in this manner may be regained in the same way that hit points lost to damage can.
Special: Using this feat is a free action, but you may use it only once per round on your turn.

Regarding sorcerer, can PF sorcerer use 3.5 sorcerer spell list for spells that are not replaced by their PF counterpart? Can we use 3.0 materials?

[samduke]

ok lets see you have a one track that is 8 of templates and the other 10 ranks in sentinel

Well that's not really an answer to the question, but if your wanting to see 10 levels of a class/prc on both then that's fine , I am just trying to get actual answers which so far have I have had to presume were , as the reply of ok , is thin to presume from

[Xavion]

Yeah, if wanting to move to actual character creation a proper big 16 would be good.

[Stormwolf69]

1. What game system are you running (D&D, Call of Cthulu, Palladium, GURPS, etc.), and if applicable what edition (Original, Classic, Revised, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 10th, etc.)?

Pathfinder / D&D

2. What 'type' or variant of game will it be (i.e. "Shadow Chasers" or "Agents of Psi" for d20 Modern)? What is the setting for the game (eg. historic period, published or homebrewed campaign setting, alternate reality, modern world, etc.)?

High Fantasy homebrewed campaign setting

3. How many Players are you looking for? Will you be taking alternates, and if so, how many?

5-6 players

4. What's the gaming medium (OOTS, chat, e-mail etc.)?

Play-by-post, right here on the forums.

5. What is the characters' starting status (i.e. experience level)?

level ten Gestalt


6. How much gold or other starting funds will the characters begin with?

62,000 gp but I will strongly advise getting something with feather fall as you will quickly find out the hard way.

7. Are there any particular character classes, professions, orders, etc. that you want... or do not want? What are your rules on 'prestige' and/or homebrewed classes?

two different prestige classes on both sides are fine. As for Homebrew run it past me first.

8. What races, subraces, species, etc. are allowed for your game? Will you allow homebrewed races or species? 'Prestige' races or species?

any is fine just list your scorces

9. By what method should Players generate their attributes/ability scores and Hit Points?

36-point buy, Maximum HP + Con modifier

10. Does your game use alignment? What are your restrictions, if so?

No

11. Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it?

multi classing allowed no limits.

12. Will you be doing all of the die rolling during the course of the game? Will die rolls be altered, or left to the honor system? If players can make die rolls, which ones do they make, how should they make the rolls, and how should they report them?

Rolls will be using the forum.

13. Are there any homebrewed or optional/variant rules that your Players should know about? If so, list and explain them, or provide relevant links to learn about these new rules.

No not that I can think of.

14. Is a character background required? If so, how big? Are you looking for anything in particular (i.e. the backgrounds all ending up with the characters in the same city)?

it does not have to be a big one but I want some background to get a base line feel for your character.

15. Does your game involve a lot of hack & slash, puzzle solving, roleplaying, or a combination of the above?

I expect there to be a mix of all of the above. Remember the world is reacting to you.

16. Are your Players restricted to particular rulebooks and supplements, or will you be allowing access to non-standard material? What sources can Players use for their characters?

Dragon Mag and Homebrew just run it past me first.

Originally Posted by Lady's Gambit (General Feat), Dragon Magazine #317, page 82
You can sacrifice your health to gain an advantage in combat.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6, Iron Will, Power Attack.
Benefit: You may sacrifice a number of hit points (maximum sacrifice equals your character level), taking them from your current hit point total as if you had lost them to damage. For every two hit points so sacrificed, you gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls for i round. Hit points sacrificed in this manner may be regained in the same way that hit points lost to damage can.
Special: Using this feat is a free action, but you may use it only once per round on your turn.

Requesting:
- Iaijutsu Focus Skill (3.0)
- Unseelie Fey Template
- Magic Blooded Template
- Warlord's Bonus Feats back in place of: Tactical Assistance (Ex) And Force of Personality (Ex)
- Void Mystery


Orc (alternate)
Hide
Basics (1)

Type (0): Humanoid (orc)
Size (0): Medium
Speed (0): Normal
Attributes (1): Specialized (Str +2/Con +2/Cha -2)
Languages (0): Standard



Attribute Traits (4)

4: Advanced Strength



Defense Traits (3)

1: Fearless
2: Natural Armor



Senses Traits (2)

2: Darkvision 60 ft


https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.co...xplosive_Bolts
https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.co...ismatic_Caster
https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.co...Casting_Savant
https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.co...ystic_Accuracy
https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Sniper_Bolts

[samduke]

Pathfinder / D&D <-this might be better if it said 3.5

7. Are there any particular character classes, professions, orders, etc. that you want... or do not want? What are your rules on 'prestige' and/or homebrewed classes?
two different prestige classes on both sides are fine. As for Homebrew run it past me first.

11. Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it?
no

*
no multiclassing , that would mean a straight class and no prestige class, because adding that is multiclassing technically. but if you mean class A level 3 then class b level 2 type thing then that is a different matter.
It would help to have this clarified


RE:
9. By what method should Players generate their attributes/ability scores and Hit Points?
36-point buy, Maximum HP + Con modifier

this was discussed previously but I think having it mentioned in the rule that the point buy is pathfinder based would help


Lastly any and all things you have previously approved or denied should probably be incorporated into that #16 area

[Stormwolf69]

I will go back and make some edits. give me a moment.

[Justanotherhero]

My proposal so far:

Character Name: Erevan Kyma

Alias (Monster Hunter): Tharivol Shadowstep

Alias (Necromancer): Malagor the Vile

Alias (Trader): Faelar Leafrunner

Erevan Kyma, a commodore and a gray elf, rose from humble beginnings to become a respected leader among his people. His journey began in the heart of the Elven realms, where he was born into a modest family, far from the luxuries of nobility. Erevan's early life was marked by his keen interest in shipbuilding and a deep sense of patriotism, which eventually led him to enlist in the Elven navy during the tumultuous Elven Wars of the "Crescent Moon". The campaign to defend ancestral homelands against younger species was bloody and ugly.

Erevan's talent for strategy and his unyielding bravery quickly caught the attention of his superiors. He climbed the ranks, not through birthright but through sheer merit and valour. Amidst the chaos of war, Erevan witnessed the devastating losses of his kin. This harsh reality drove him to delve into the arcane arts, specifically in the realms of wizardry and artificing. His most controversial, yet effective strategy involved the use of undead minions in maritime combat, a tactic that significantly supplemented the elves' dwindling numbers at sea.

However, Erevan's life took a dramatic turn when he and his companions were Isekai'd by a capricious Goddess. Deemed unworthy and repulsive, they were cast into the treacherous badlands. Here, Erevan assumed multiple identities to navigate this new and hostile world. As Tharivol Shadowstep, he poses as a monster hunter, driven by vengeance against Malagor the Vile, the evil necromancer who destroyed his village - a persona that Erevan himself adopts in darker circles. In more peaceful settings, he is known as Faelar Leafrunner, a benign trader whose caravans traverse the rugged terrains of the badlands.

Erevan believes that life is precious. He longs for his family but lacks the magical power required to return to his world. He views the god as unjust and deserving of retribution. His aspiration is to construct the grandest, most seaworthy vessel ever created. The notion that humans are superior to elves is to put it mildly laughable.


Always thankful for feedback.

Edit: My idea for the ugly concept so far is to give him exactly 10 Charisma. Just really well ordinary with a clearly visible scar on his face. By divine standards obviously unbearable for a true champion but I like the irony of expectations.

Unless the GM was expecting us all to go a more monstrous route?

[AvatarVecna]

Mostly mechanically ready: Viggu (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867083), the ugliest orc lumberjack. His special skills include chopping down 100 enormous trees per hour, and turning even the simplest of financial transactions as awkward as a hostage negotiation.

Description
A lumbering giant of an orc, nearly as wide as he is tall, and absolutely covered in bulging muscle. His dark green skin is covered in a patchwork of scars. One ear has a bite out of it, and his nose looks to have been broken many times without setting right. His tangled, matted black hair falls past his shoulders, and something wriggles within. When his mouth opens, you can smell a little bit of everything he's ever eaten, accentuating his already-foul musk.

Personality
Viggu is a misanthrope with a foul temper and no patience for incompetence. He's spent his whole life getting judged on appearance (or so he thinks) and behaves worse towards those who do so. For those who prove themselves capable, or at least open-minded, he is a great deal more tolerant and tolerable (at least, as far as his personality goes).

Background
Viggu has spent his life as a lumberjack, chopping down trees to help build...well, basically anything, really. And he's damn good at it too. He had people he could work with who were better at handling the public and keeping he coin flowing in, but now he's lost in a hostile world run by an ******* goddess, and he's not particularly interested in building. Now his axe turns to destruction.

Enemies
Viggu thought a goddess might be more discerning than everyone else in his life. That even such a powerful being is incapable of looking past the surface enrages him, and has set him against her purely out of spite. If this is her world, then he shall tear it down to prove she shouldn't have rejected him.

[samduke]

hrm well definitely cleared up a few things

I guess I will request these monsters as races
Bog Nixie (CR +3)
Div, Doru (CR +2)


I will request these templates
Dread Vampire Template (CR +3)[3pp]
Half-Succubus Template (CR +1)
Simple Aerial Creature Template (CR +0 or +1)
Simple Advanced Template (CR +1)
Ferral Creature Template (SS p115) (LA+1)

if these are not kosher that is fine I have a few other ideas

edited

[Lioslaith]

@Stormwolf69 I’ve seen you mention feather fall a couple times. Is the ability to fly a viable solution for this?

[Triskavanski]

if for some reason you cannot afford the ring of featherfall, there is snap leafs.

Or have more than 120 hp.

[Lioslaith]

Or be able to fly?

[AvatarVecna]

I already had boots that minimize fall damage cuz that's neat and fitting, but I don't have a lot of cash, so I'll just stick with that and eat the (probably) 20 damage from being dropped out the stratosphere or however it is we're getting isekai'd in.

[Lioslaith]

Lots of “if’s” but assuming everything works I can catch you.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by AvatarVecna
...Viggu, the ugliest orc lumberjack. His special skills include chopping down 100 enormous trees per hour, and turning even the simplest of financial transactions as awkward as a hostage negotiation.

Just here to say a) how much I love this concept, and b) how many bounties Viggu must have on his head from druids everywhere.

[Aegis013]

Posting interest with Phage (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867292), a Parasite (Path of War) // Binder (3.5), Necropolitan (3.5 Libris Mortis) Human who has been called up from some terrible afterlife in another world by the Goddess. However, he learned to communicate with his tormentors, so only speaks Abyssal and Infernal, since we can't speak common. Now he calls upon the beings from his previous existence to extract their power to add to his own.

Phage focuses on the Unquiet Grave school of maneuvers, inflicting negative energy damage, status effects and has a particular focus on turning incorporeal while his undead and summoned minions handle foes.

I do want to make sure it's OK for me to use the Zceryll vestige with the Summon Monster ability working as if it was the spell cast by a Sorcerer of my Binder level (so the Summons last rounds/binder level). The original WotC web article is hard to find now, and I don't want to risk linking other source locations.

[Lioslaith]

I had asked a while back but it probably got lost in the shuffle, is there a "monster" common that is different from the human common?

[HereBeMonsters]

Had some question
Would these be allowed
Dread Vampire CR +3 (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dread-vampire-cr-3)
Vampire Lord CR +3 (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/vampirelord.shtml)
Simple Template: Advanced CR +1 (https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterTemplates.aspx?ItemName=Advanced)
On
Doppelganger (https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Doppelganger)

Would you say Vampire Lord might be a CR+2 because its very redundant with Dread Vampire, but has some cool unique things as well that I would love to play with.

[Xavion]

Had some question
Would these be allowed
Dread Vampire CR +3 (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dread-vampire-cr-3)
Vampire Lord CR +3 (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/vampirelord.shtml)
Simple Template: Advanced CR +1 (https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterTemplates.aspx?ItemName=Advanced)
On
Doppelganger (https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Doppelganger)

Would you say Vampire Lord might be a CR+2 because its very redundant with Dread Vampire, but has some cool unique things as well that I would love to play with.
Don't forget that Vampire Lord + Dread Vampire are arguably incompatible as they both need living creatures as a base, but more importantly Vampire Lord specifically requires you to have the normal vampire template on to apply it which effectively makes it +5 CR template once you add in the +2 from vampire. Though also level adjustment, and on that note.

@Stormwolf69
How are monsters/templates going to work here? It seems like they're allowed, but pathfinder doesn't have rules for them, and 3.5 rules support them but they're all based on level adjustment instead of CR and not everything has level adjustment, and obviously no pathfinder content has official level adjustments.

[Stormwolf69]

I had asked a while back but it probably got lost in the shuffle, is there a "monster" common that is different from the human common?


most monsters in the wastelands do know under common due to trading with Drow.




Or be able to fly?


yes. Remember that the goddess will try to drop you from the stratosphere I think it is very fair to warn the party that she will do it.


@Stormwolf69
How are monsters/templates going to work here? It seems like they're allowed, but pathfinder doesn't have rules for them, and 3.5 rules support them but they're all based on level adjustment instead of CR and not everything has level adjustment, and obviously no pathfinder content has official level adjustments.

use 3.5 rules.

[HereBeMonsters]

Don't forget that Vampire Lord + Dread Vampire are arguably incompatible as they both need living creatures as a base, but more importantly Vampire Lord specifically requires you to have the normal vampire template on to apply it which effectively makes it +5 CR template once you add in the +2 from vampire. Though also level adjustment, and on that note.

Vampire Lord does not require you to be alive, it requires you to be a vampire. It assumes base Vampire because 3.5 doesn't have other vampire types.




@Stormwolf69
How are monsters/templates going to work here? It seems like they're allowed, but pathfinder doesn't have rules for them, and 3.5 rules support them but they're all based on level adjustment instead of CR and not everything has level adjustment, and obviously no pathfinder content has official level adjustments.

use 3.5 rules.

Pretty sure that makes most of the characters posted already unviable. As 3.5 Rules are RHD+Level Adjust which by PF rules was the CR. So a CR 10 creature like a Bogeyman. That has 17d6 RHD and a CR of 10. So to play a Bogeyman by 3.5 rules you need to be a level 27 character unless there is a racial class. Like the doppleganger I proposed would have to be a ECL of 7 to be played.

[Xavion]

Vampire Lord does not require you to be alive, it requires you to be a vampire. It assumes base Vampire because 3.5 doesn't have other vampire types.

It specifically says the vampire template, but yeah, this is something you could've asked about, however...


Pretty sure that makes most of the characters posted already unviable. As 3.5 Rules are RHD+Level Adjust which by PF rules was the CR. So a CR 10 creature like a Bogeyman. That has 17d6 RHD and a CR of 10. So to play a Bogeyman by 3.5 rules you need to be a level 27 character unless there is a racial class. Like the doppleganger I proposed would have to be a ECL of 7 to be played.
This is why I asked for confirmation. People were rushing off ahead and we hadn't actually had it confirmed by the GM either way, as per the recent response to me we are using 3.5 rules, so level adjustment and racial hit dice counting do apply, which yes, does make most monster builds less viable when things aren't being made like 75% cheaper than they were in 3.5, but that's also how it was in 3.5, most monster builds were insanely level hungry.

[Stormwolf69]

Vampire Lord does not require you to be alive, it requires you to be a vampire. It assumes base Vampire because 3.5 doesn't have other vampire types.



Pretty sure that makes most of the characters posted already unviable. As 3.5 Rules are RHD+Level Adjust which by PF rules was the CR. So a CR 10 creature like a Bogeyman. That has 17d6 RHD and a CR of 10. So to play a Bogeyman by 3.5 rules you need to be a level 27 character unless there is a racial class. Like the doppleganger I proposed would have to be a ECL of 7 to be played.


ok, what would be the best workaround for the problem of playing a monster?

[TheAlmightyKue]

It specifically says the vampire template, but yeah, this is something you could've asked about, however...

This is why I asked for confirmation. People were rushing off ahead and we hadn't actually had it confirmed by the GM either way, as per the recent response to me we are using 3.5 rules, so level adjustment and racial hit dice counting do apply, which yes, does make most monster builds less viable when things aren't being made like 75% cheaper than they were in 3.5, but that's also how it was in 3.5, most monster builds were insanely level hungry.

Yeah go figure, that when it says this is pathfinder game, that people went with the assumption that it was by Pathfinder rules. But since you seem to be the BOSS of the thread I guess you get to pick the rules.

ok, what would be the best workaround for the problem of playing a monster?

Not the person you asked but if we are using Pathfinder then yeah we should use the PF rules which is CR is your ECL (Your adjusted level) you can cap RHD to lvl if you want thats totally fair, or not whatever you want. Now when it comes to 3.5 Templates that have a CR adjustment and a Level Adjustment, you can use either if thats what you want. But if you want to stick with CR thats cool too it would streamline issues. Yes some Templates are gonna be stronger than others and some if mixing 3.5 and PF are gonna take some working around to fit together. Like the Vampire Lord and Dread Vampire. Dread Vampire would count as the Vampire base (as it requires you to be human) and then layer Lord on top of it. But honestly Vampire Lord on top of Dread Vampire seems like a big CR cost for like 3 or 4 abilities and some ability score bonuses because the rest is already given by Dread Vampire. I don't see the point but hey its not my build.

If you want to go with just 3.5 rules for creatures thats fine but be 100% honest about it. It does change most things and most people will probably just use base normal races because working 3.5 races into this would be a pain and MUCH weaker. The Drow from PF is stronger than the 3.5 Drow and its a starting base race, while 3.5 Drow requires a level or two to play. Even Drow Noble says its only CR 1 and even the Dev said thats just for balance sake since the stat block shows it as a CR 1 with a class level meaning its below CR 1 without a class. And That is MUCH stronger than the 3.5 Drow.

[Xavion]

ok, what would be the best workaround for the problem of playing a monster?
It's difficult and somewhat complicated, so I'm just mentioning a few options and my own opinion.

So the problem is that in 3.5 rules where there were actual rules for monsters as PCs, templates and monsters tend to be super expensive for how many levels they take up so in practice you can't actually take that many options. Like, the vampire template for example is +2 CR but costs 8 levels to take on a PC, which is obviously hideously expensive.

In PF they stopped printing level adjustment, but just using CR isn't necessarily a clean solution either, because that often results in things being undercosted.

In practice, the best way to get a reasonable balance point for monsters is the homebrew on these forums. People have put a lot of work into trying to create more reasonable level adjustments in the LA assignment threads, both for base monsters and templates. For example the vampire template mentioned earlier in that thread run is costed at 3 levels, although nerfed so the create spawn ability was removed. This provides a middle ground. This doesn't work with most pathfinder content, as those threads are specifically targeting at 3.5 content as that's where the rules are, but that's the easiest way to get a middle ground between raw CR which is nearly always undercosted for a PC and WotC's level adjustments which are nearly always massively overcosted.

What to do then for pathfinder monsters or obscure monsters which don't show up there? Well, the easiest option is to just say people can't take them, other options include trying to value them yourself on a case by case basis. The strongest option by far is to just allow everything and only count CR, but that'd need questions answered about what kind of power level you want and the like because it does let people bring in things that are well above what'd be capable otherwise. A level 10 CR based character could easily be equivalent to a character in the 20s for wotc LA numbers, and still well into the teens for the LA assignment thread numbers.


Yeah go figure, that when it says this is pathfinder game, that people went with the assumption that it was by Pathfinder rules. But since you seem to be the BOSS of the thread I guess you get to pick the rules.

There are no pathfinder rules for monsters as PCs or (most) templates on PCs, hence why I was asking. You can't say people were assuming PF rules because those don't exist, people were just assuming some rule set which is from neither system.

[TheAlmightyKue]

There are no pathfinder rules for monsters as PCs or (most) templates on PCs, hence why I was asking. You can't say people were assuming PF rules because those don't exist, people were just assuming some rule set which is from neither system.

So we are just gonna ignore the devs talking about the system. Cool cool. They have said a CR 1 creature is the equivalent of a 1st level character. That is from the Devs of the game. But I guess they don't count.

Also by using 3.5 race rules all PF races become ECL 1 at minimum. So the basic human would not be playable till level 2 and it would be a 1st level class. Honestly with the feat and the skill bonus its pushing ECL 2 by 3.5 rules.
So we would have to use 3.5 races.

[JNAProductions]

Equal to as a monster is not the same as equal to as a PC.

Regeneration/fast healing are far more powerful on a PC than on a monster, for instance.

[HereBeMonsters]

ok, what would be the best workaround for the problem of playing a monster?

Pathfinder uses CR, 3.5 is weaker than Patherfinder as mentioned in other posts. So Level adjusts don't really work any better than CRs. But a lot of monster races and templates have bloated LAs compared to what they would be in PF. So a LA 3 would maybe require a lvl if that. So the LA method would need to be eyeballed to be much weaker. Like a Vampire is LA 8, in PF the Vampire is a CR 2 and can be applied to a player for 2 character levels. So LA might need to be reduced by 4, because CR 2 = LA 8. Or maybe its 4 times. So that LA 10 would be like CR 3 or so. So CR might be EASIER to figure out.

[paradox26]

Maybe an alternative could be to use the monster class progressions by Oslecamo?

[Xavion]

Yeah, a CR 1 creature being roughly equal in combat capability to a single level 1 PC does not mean it should be worth 1 level of progression inherently. That's the entire reason why 3.5 invented level adjustment, not all abilities are equally important for PCs as monsters, and sometimes the CR or HD of a monster can be misleading.

Because also, this is how it worked in 3.5 for monsters of a certain CR and yet 3.5 didn't use those rules. It'd be like going into a 3.5 game and arguing that level adjustment is against the intent of the designers, because like vampire is a +2 CR template so clearly it's intended to be worth 2 levels of progression? Just ignore that level adjustment rules exist specifically to handle that. Basically what's happening here.

CR is not meant to act as a guideline for how powerful something would be on a player, it's not even always a good guideline for how powerful something is on a monster which anyone who has dealt with using them in encounter design would know.

No idea where the PC races = ECL 1 thing comes from, Player races in PF don't even have hit dice inherently, and there's only two which are called out as being worth a CR bump iirc.

[AvatarVecna]

So we are just gonna ignore the devs talking about the system. Cool cool. They have said a CR 1 creature is the equivalent of a 1st level character. That is from the Devs of the game. But I guess they don't count.

In both 3.5 and PF, a level 1 character is CR 1. That's just how CR works. "These two things are equally dangerous according to our danger-measuring system" is not the same thing as "you can play a CR X creature in place of playing a level X PC". Devs chit-chatting about rules they could've written doesn't actually make them rules that are already written out.

I asked before, and got ignored, so I'll ask again. Can you quote the rules, book and page number, where it is spelled out in black and white how players go about playing monsters in Pathfinder 1e? If so, please do! It'd be more constructive than being passive-aggressive about people not treating developer commentary as seriously as you do.


Also by using 3.5 race rules all PF races become ECL 1 at minimum. So the basic human would not be playable till level 2 and it would be a 1st level class. Honestly with the feat and the skill bonus its pushing ECL 2 by 3.5 rules.
So we would have to use 3.5 races.

Incorrect. Have a rules link (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#monstersAndClassLevels).


Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

Additionally, while there are guidelines for assigning LA to monsters that don't already have it (Savage Species, starting on pg 10), the same rules introducing those guidelines specify that the core races don't have LA. And there's nothing within the guidelines that indicates a single feat and an extra skill point a level is worth even LA +1, let alone LA +2 like you're implying.

[TheAlmightyKue]

Yeah, a CR 1 creature being roughly equal in combat capability to a single level 1 PC does not mean it should be worth 1 level of progression inherently. That's the entire reason why 3.5 invented level adjustment, not all abilities are equally important for PCs as monsters, and sometimes the CR or HD of a monster can be misleading.

Because also, this is how it worked in 3.5 for monsters of a certain CR and yet 3.5 didn't use those rules. It'd be like going into a 3.5 game and arguing that level adjustment is against the intent of the designers, because like vampire is a +2 CR template so clearly it's intended to be worth 2 levels of progression? Just ignore that level adjustment rules exist specifically to handle that. Basically what's happening here.

CR is not meant to act as a guideline for how powerful something would be on a player, it's not even always a good guideline for how powerful something is on a monster which anyone who has dealt with using them in encounter design would know.

No idea where the PC races = ECL 1 thing comes from, Player races in PF don't even have hit dice inherently, and there's only two which are called out as being worth a CR bump iirc.

Because they would be, they are MUCH more powerful than 3.5 versions.
A Drow is a LA +2 now according to you that is a GOD level being
Thas a +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma
It has 2 first level spells, one 2nd level it can cast once a day
Profs in a few weapons
Darkvision 120ft
Spell Resistance (11+CL)
Light Blindness

Pathfinder Drow (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-drow) This character is available to all players to start at lvl one.
Except they are pretty much the same, a little differences in ability scores and that but not much. But a 2 level difference in 3.5 rules. So yeah a PF Drow following 3.5 rules would be a LA 2 race. So yeah lets look at human
3.5
One extra Feat
4 extra skill points at lvl 1 and +1 per level there after
Pathfinder Human (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/human) The +2 floating would make it a LA 1 Especially with the alternate racial traits available.

Have a Link (https://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary/monstersAsPcs.html)

[Yas392]

Regarding sorcerer, can PF sorcerer use 3.5 sorcerer spell list for spells that are not replaced by their PF counterpart? Can we use 3.0 materials?

@Stormwolf69 Waiting for answers for these queries.

[Stormwolf69]

@Stormwolf69 Waiting for answers for these queries.

yes

As for the monster, I will figure something out tomorrow morning as there are pros and cons to both ideas. but would it be easier to simplify it with the use of ECL ?

[TheAlmightyKue]

I am sorry this has become such a thing I hope Stormwolf69 doesn't get overwhelmed with it.

[AvatarVecna]

Stormwolf69

Kue has provided a rules link (https://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary/monstersAsPcs.html), which clears up most concerns.

One problem I've seen brought up in previous games with these rules (that at the time, I mistakenly believed were rulings) is that many monsters have more HD than CR, and this can cause gestalt characters to have higher HP, BAB, saves, skills, and perhaps most importantly racial caster levels than a typical gestalt character might otherwise have. I personally don't think this is a big deal, gestalt characters are supposed to be powerful, but it's better to make sure you're okay with that now, then to find out you're not okay with it after half the prospective players show up with high hit die totals, and them all having to redo their builds. If that's not an issue then people should be able to build monster PCs according to the rules.


Because they would be, they are MUCH more powerful than 3.5 versions.
A Drow is a LA +2 now according to you that is a GOD level being

Pathfinder Drow (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-drow) This character is available to all players to start at lvl one.
Except they are pretty much the same, a little differences in ability scores and that but not much. But a 2 level difference in 3.5 rules. So yeah a PF Drow following 3.5 rules would be a LA 2 race. So yeah lets look at human
3.5
One extra Feat
4 extra skill points at lvl 1 and +1 per level there after
Pathfinder Human (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/human) The +2 floating would make it a LA 1 Especially with the alternate racial traits available.

I think this is less a case of 3.5 undervaluing human and more a case of 3.5 overvaluing drow. Human is a good race, probably overall the best in either game, but it's not "give up a class level" good. If you had the choice between playing an Elf Cleric 3 or a Human Cleric 2, you'd take the Elf every time, in both systems. The same is very much true for Elf Cleric 3 vs Drow Cleric 1; even Drow Cleric 2 would be significantly worse off. There's actually an ongoing project in the 3.5 subforum to reassign more appropriate LA to basically every single creature that's ever been printed, including all the ones that never received LA in the first place, and basically everything is way lower than initially assigned. A great many monsters are even so terrible for their HD that that're voted to have "less than 0", and there's a spinoff project where people try to figure out how negative level adjustment should even work and how much of it those monsters should have.

My point is that 3.5 assigns really high LA basically across the board, so we can't exactly point to "human and drow are about as good as each other" to say " and that's why human should also be LA +2". No, drow should be LA +0.


Have a Link (https://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary/monstersAsPcs.html)

Thank you for providing a rules link.

[AvatarVecna]

yes

As for the monster, I will figure something out tomorrow morning as there are pros and cons to both ideas. but would it be easier to simplify it with the use of ECL ?

Please don't.

I mean, yes, it would be simpler. Because if everything uses ECL, nobody will play monsters. It can't get simpler than that. Using ECL for monster PCs is kind of like deliberately playing commoner on one track. You're wasting half your build. Like...

...yeah, you could add Rogue 10 to the other side of your gestalt. That would give you tons of skills, sneak attack, evasion, high reflex saves, and uncanny dodge. Or you could play a Harpy (HD 7, LA +3, ECL 10), and that would get you...a fly speed, Cha +6, and Captivating Song? Oh and Captivating Song kinda sucks when you're not using it in a chorus of other harpies.

EDIT: The PF rules for this stuff got posted, they're perfectly fine, there's just the maybe-problem of too many HD that I don't care about but some previous DMs did. Why ditch that for a worse monster system? :smallfrown:

[Stormwolf69]

I am sorry this has become such a thing I hope Stormwolf69 doesn't get overwhelmed with it.


no it is just a long day at work.

[Xavion]

Because they would be, they are MUCH more powerful than 3.5 versions.
A Drow is a LA +2 now according to you that is a GOD level being
Thas a +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma
It has 2 first level spells, one 2nd level it can cast once a day
Profs in a few weapons
Darkvision 120ft
Spell Resistance (11+CL)
Light Blindness

Pathfinder Drow (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-drow) This character is available to all players to start at lvl one.
Except they are pretty much the same, a little differences in ability scores and that but not much. But a 2 level difference in 3.5 rules. So yeah a PF Drow following 3.5 rules would be a LA 2 race. So yeah lets look at human
3.5
One extra Feat
4 extra skill points at lvl 1 and +1 per level there after
Pathfinder Human (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/human) The +2 floating would make it a LA 1 Especially with the alternate racial traits available.

Have a Link (https://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary/monstersAsPcs.html)
On the drow thing, I got curious so actually compared them, turns out you actually didn't list a drow's full set of abilities. The actual comparison, cause also hey, maybe someone wants to play a drow. I'm mentioning what they both get at the start, then doing a comparison of the differences.
Both 3.5 and PF get +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con; 1/day Dancing Lights, Darkness, and Faerie Fire; Proficiency in the Hand Crossbow; Darkvision 120ft; Immunity to magical sleep effects and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantments; +2 racial bonus to Perception checks; and Light blindness;

So what are the differences?
The 3.5 version gets a +2 to Int, a +2 racial bonus to Will saves against spells and SLAs, SR of 11+Level, and proficiency with the light crossbow.
The PF version gets an SR of 6+level, Poison Use so they don't accidentally poison themselves, and proficiency with the rapier and shortsword.

So generally speaking, I'd rate the 3.5 version as stronger, more save bonuses, better SR, and better stat modifiers. Proficiencies are mostly a wash, anyone who cares about actual martial stuff will easily be proficient in all three of those, so unless you really want to be playing a character who uses poisons the 3.5 version is almost strictly better, ignoring level adjustment. In practice giving up two levels for all of that is a terrible idea, but the PF drow is weaker or the same compared to the 3.5 version in almost every way. As AvactarVecna and I've both mentioned before though, 3.5 is notorious for giving overly high level adjustments.

And yeah, but if we're using those PF rules for monsters then people still ignoring them. There's absolutely zero mention of templates, so those are out, but also per those rules the GM should be evaluating every single option on a case by case basis, and constantly reevaluating and nerfing them. Plus there's the whole half levels bit, so the ECL of a CR X monster at level N is this. This again doesn't account for templates because the PF rules don't account for templates, just base monsters.
https://i.imgur.com/WkSJGl4.png

[AvatarVecna]

And yeah, but if we're using those PF rules for monsters then people still ignoring them. There's absolutely zero mention of templates, so those are out, but also per those rules the GM should be evaluating every single option on a case by case basis, and constantly reevaluating and nerfing them. Plus there's the whole half levels bit, so the ECL of a CR X monster at level N is this. This again doesn't account for templates because the PF rules don't account for templates, just base monsters.
https://i.imgur.com/WkSJGl4.png

I don't think this is quite fair either. Templates aren't technically mentioned, but templates have a CR change. A Harpy has CR 4, a Half-Dragon Harpy has CR 6. So a harpy counts as a lvl 4 PC, and a half-dragon harpy counts as a lvl 6 PC. That doesn't require specific mentions be made of templates.

As for the formula stuff...I mean, I don't think you're wrong necessarily, but I imagine most people are wanting to look at monsters CR 8+, so the "it's cheaper the higher level you get" thing only matters if we actually manage to level up. And uh...I'd prefer to not count chickens 'til after they've hatched, if you catch my meaning.

[TheAlmightyKue]

no it is just a long day at work.

I work 12 hour shifts so I totally understand.

[Xavion]

I don't think this is quite fair either. Templates aren't technically mentioned, but templates have a CR change. A Harpy has CR 4, a Half-Dragon Harpy has CR 6. So a harpy counts as a lvl 4 PC, and a half-dragon harpy counts as a lvl 6 PC. That doesn't require specific mentions be made of templates.

As for the formula stuff...I mean, I don't think you're wrong necessarily, but I imagine most people are wanting to look at monsters CR 8+, so the "it's cheaper the higher level you get" thing only matters if we actually manage to level up. And uh...I'd prefer to not count chickens 'til after they've hatched, if you catch my meaning.
Maybe, it gets messy with PC races with templates though. Like I'd considered just like, a human vampire which falls beyond those rules as far as I can tell. Plus you know, most popular template choice seems to just be Advanced which eh.

Level up stuff too yeah, the tendency of pbp to either die immediately or live forever. Though I've found generally at a certain point too high power seems to start drifting more towards the former...

[Escheton]

Hey all.

This looks nice and messy.
If this goes the way it seems to, I would like to request to be a Wraith Boss (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dread-wraith-sovereign-cr-3/).

If we end up with more mellowed out allowances, I'd like to be a Half-Orc Crimelord (https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/realms/orcwarlord.shtml)

[samduke]

@GM
these were not addressed


hrm well definitely cleared up a few things

I guess I will request these monsters as races
Bog Nixie (CR +3)
Div, Doru (CR +2)
Petal (3.5 MM3 Cr +1 Or Level Adjustment +2)

I will request these templates
Dread Vampire Template (CR +3)[3pp]
Half-Succubus Template (CR +1)
Simple Aerial Creature Template (CR +0 or +1)
Simple Advanced Template (CR +1)
Ferral Creature Template (SS p115) (CR +4 or Level Adjustment +1)

if these are not kosher that is fine I have a few other ideas

edited

RE: CR and LVL Adjustment, in 3.5 many monsters and templates have CR and LA, if we use the PF rule for CR, but I would also tend to agree that there should be a cap on RHD regardless of CR capping at 10RHD or the creatures own CR value which ever is greater RHD/CR + Template CR =10, not over 10

[namo]

If this goes the way it seems to, I would like to request to be a Wraith Boss (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dread-wraith-sovereign-cr-3/).

Haha, love the Dread Wraith! When ALL the people in the badlands have been turned into wraiths (chain reaction), let's see how the civilized world resists!

In all seriousness, I suspect it won't end well if it remains a free-for-all (dumpster-diving for the most powerful monsters/templates to pair up with a class...), but then I've never seen a monster campaign in PF - perhaps it can be done in a balanced way, I welcome reassurance.
Otherwise, I really like the suggestions of Oslecamo monster progressions or other at least semi-vetted homebrewed adaptations.

If free-for-all, there's always a Quickling (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/quickling-creature-cr-3/) caster or gish, because auto-quickening spells at-will is fun.

[Xavion]

Diving through random 3pp templates is where it gets really dumb, but also anything with a create spawn esque ability like standard vampires or wraiths easily breaks things I expect.

The Advanced Bestiary is a particular culprit though, a 3pp PF book full of dumb templates which clearly weren't entirely set up to work with PF even. Like, the dread wraith, dread vampire, suzerain, and quickling have all been mentioned in this thread as powerful templates people would like, and all come from that book. That one book legitimately has like half or more of the powerful templates people have been asking for, and even just limiting to only 1pp templates/monsters would probably stop a lot of the stupidity.

[Aegis013]

Maybe an alternative could be to use the monster class progressions by Oslecamo?

Seconding paradox26's as the most elegant solution presented. From the few I've looked through they seem reasonable, and it would save Stormwolf a lot of work.

It also opens being monsters who would be higher than CR or RHD+LA 10 just without all of the abilities.

[samduke]

Maybe an alternative could be to use the monster class progressions by Oslecamo?


Seconding paradox26's as the most elegant solution presented. From the few I've looked through they seem reasonable, and it would save Stormwolf a lot of work.

It also opens being monsters who would be higher than CR or RHD+LA 10 just without all of the abilities.

I agree Oslecamo's Homebrew (https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?board=34.0) does solve a great many issues, but it is 3.5 based and does not cover several things that Pathfinder does cover, and not all of these are balanced

pathfinder bestiary/templates are fairly balanced

[Triskavanski]

I'm just gonna stick with Kitsune warlock vigilante.

I do have a feat request from 3.5 however, from planar handbook, called "Natural Spell" I think is its name. Lets you cast spells even if your form isn't that of a form that can supply spell components like a human. Would let me cast my warlock spells while in fox form, instead of trying to figure out how to get psychic caster or verbal only spells.

[samduke]

I'm just gonna stick with Kitsune warlock vigilante.

I do have a feat request from 3.5 however, from planar handbook, called "Natural Spell" I think is its name. Lets you cast spells even if your form isn't that of a form that can supply spell components like a human. Would let me cast my warlock spells while in fox form, instead of trying to figure out how to get psychic caster or verbal only spells.

do you mean this one ?



Natural Spell ( Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 98)
[General Feat]
You can cast spells while in a wild shape.

Prerequisite
WIS 13, wild shape ability

Benefit
You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. For example, while in the form of a hawk, you could substitute screeches and gestures with your talons for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell. You can also use any material components or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while in a wild shape.

[Triskavanski]

Actually nevermind, the feat is nonverbal spell, but I can already supply that.

[Xavion]

Not sure what feat they're talking about but it can't be natural spell, that's wild shape locked in both 3.5 and PF, and also the PF version is objectively better as it lets you use components melded into your form.

The normal PF ways to deal with the problem of components is something like still spell to beat somatics and eschew material for material for feats, although the arcanist class gets access to a class ability which gives them a variant of natural spell for any polymorph spell. Unfortunately that won't work for a warlock obviously, and arguably doesn't work for the kitsune's fox transformation as it's specific to polymorph spells, not any polymorph effect.

There's probably more ways in 3.5 to avoid it, but a quick google suggests the planar handbook feat only lets you ignore verbal components (it's nonverbal spell), not somatic components. So useful sometimes, but not here where the problem is being a talking fox, not a nontalking humanoid.

[Lioslaith]

I may switch to an antipaladin. Not digging the sneaky sneak path.

[namo]

Surrogate Spellcasting, Savage Species (to cast in fox shape)

[Escheton]

Ok, I need a vibecheck. Is this too much?


Drive me closer so I can hit them with my Sword!
How I turned a dingy full of lvl 1 Orc Barbarians into a problem


Ok, so I found a dumb combo that is too silly to not use. (It's Suzerain-light)

Step 1: Find some followers (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/leadership/) and a dingy. Get some to carry the thing around, others to "man the vessel". Get a Bicorn and Saber and look cool as ****
Step 2: Find a way to Aid Another everyone on the Vessel (https://dndtools.net/feats/stormwrack--87/great-captain--1255/)
Step 3: Find a way to buff the **** out of Aid Another (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/bushi-template/#bushido_su)
Step 4: Profit

Note, it doesn't have to be attacks. Like, it could also be knowledge checks, or bluff.
Just doing a Jabba the Hut drive-by while a bunch of Orcs are ranting off obscure facts about the world, heckling your garden, or just, sharing your deepest secrets to the world and then running off.

-----------

Also, need a math question answered. Orc Warlord gives you 200% followers, with the caveat that half must be orcs.
Say I have 50 followers, that then becomes 100 total.
Now, an effect says I get double the followers: Double base, 200% that, 100 of each. Seems logical.
The issue comes here; what if a second effect gives double followers. Do I end up with 400 or 300 total followers?

[Triskavanski]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1191562039722782740/1191562409152876584/1633474000.png
Neuro
https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2541494

[samduke]

Also, need a math question answered. Orc Warlord gives you 200% followers, with the caveat that half must be orcs.
Say I have 50 followers, that then becomes 100 total.
Now, an effect says I get double the followers: Double base, 200% that, 100 of each. Seems logical.
The issue comes here; what if a second effect gives double followers. Do I end up with 400 or 300 total followers?

first I think it would help to know what you are looking at IE (Feat name, Ability name from Class) ect.

[Escheton]

first I think it would help to know what you are looking at IE (Feat name, Ability name from Class) ect.

For instance: a feat (https://dndtools.org/feats/heroes-of-battle--69/extra-followers--1020/) and an item (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-the-ecclesiarch) together.
With the afore mentioned Orc Warlord (https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/realms/orcwarlord.shtml) prestige at 3 levels or more.

@GM: What rules are we using for Leadership Cohorts? Also gestalt? Max HP?
I'm looking into Spheres of Guile to make a fun Lieutenant.

Also, are there even Orcs in this world? Or is it like "Uncle from Another World" where people see us Goddess cursed people as Orcs just because we aren't So-Cal hot? And that qualifies the poor downtrotten souls as Orc Warlord followers? *Nudge nudge*

The mention of skill retraining, does that mean we need to spend downtime and gold when our Int gets bumped to an even number at the lvl 12 stat increase?
How do we handle the increases so far? Pay into it like the retraining rules say? Could we have retrained other things using the same rules? Just sacrifice gold to get Weapon Finesse as a level 1 feat despite not having Bab 1 at the time, but paying the gold cost as if retrained at the earliest chance (lvl 2). Because that does help streamline the build.

Are we using Fractional Bab and Saves or can we stack class dips to get +20 base saves?

Background skills so we can max out things like Profession (Sailor) without it costing us power?

[HereBeMonsters]

Diving through random 3pp templates is where it gets really dumb, but also anything with a create spawn esque ability like standard vampires or wraiths easily breaks things I expect.

The Advanced Bestiary is a particular culprit though, a 3pp PF book full of dumb templates which clearly weren't entirely set up to work with PF even. Like, the dread wraith, dread vampire, suzerain, and quickling have all been mentioned in this thread as powerful templates people would like, and all come from that book. That one book legitimately has like half or more of the powerful templates people have been asking for, and even just limiting to only 1pp templates/monsters would probably stop a lot of the stupidity.

Why are you in this thread if your entire time is just spent trying to turn this into a game YOU want to run. Go make your own thread with your own rules. Stop trying to impose them on other threads. This "You have to play by 3.5 rules! I said so" is really just annoying when you jumped into someone elses recruitment thread and demanded they follow how YOU want to play the game. This is not about you. Odds are you have already killed any real chance of this game coming together by demanding the GM follow your rules and nothing else.

[Lioslaith]

Let’s let the DM weigh in on things before we get down to bickering about rules that they may not even use or want to use. After all it is their table and their game, ultimately, and they can decide what to use and how to use it.

[Escheton]

Why are you in this thread if your entire time is just spent trying to turn this into a game YOU want to run. Go make your own thread with your own rules. Stop trying to impose them on other threads. This "You have to play by 3.5 rules! I said so" is really just annoying when you jumped into someone elses recruitment thread and demanded they follow how YOU want to play the game. This is not about you. Odds are you have already killed any real chance of this game coming together by demanding the GM follow your rules and nothing else.

The GM has explicitly stated that consensus among applicants determines allowances. Meaning if one player wants to make Pun Pun while most of the others are making a "fighter but with the half-dragon template", it should be called out and discussed openly.
Vice versa as well. If most are immediately inspired to play rocket-tag and kill Goddess, that means the fighter doesn't get to play, really.
Nor does anyone after that first encounter unless you want to explore interpersonal therapy while stuck in the void forever, so keeping that inspiration purely theoretical to have a fun back and forth seems a good way forward.
Because one player making Pun Pun means the fighter(s) need(s) to deal with an enemy Pun Pun now existing in the world. And that just doesn't seem fair. To me at least.

[HereBeMonsters]

The GM has explicitly stated that consensus among applicants determines allowances. Meaning if one player wants to make Pun Pun while most of the others are making a "fighter but with the half-dragon template", it should be called out and discussed openly.
Vice versa as well. If most are immediately inspired to play rocket-tag and kill Goddess, that means the fighter doesn't get to play, really.
Nor does anyone after that first encounter unless you want to explore interpersonal therapy while stuck in the void forever, so keeping that inspiration purely theoretical to have a fun back and forth seems a good way forward.
Because one player making Pun Pun means the fighter(s) need(s) to deal with an enemy Pun Pun now existing in he world. And that just doesn't seem fair. To me at least.

From what I read of the thread, everyone was already on the consensus which is why we had multiple people already putting up sheets. It was Xavion who came in and LITERALLY said all those sheets are invalid because you have to use 3.5 rules. That does not sound like someone looking for a consensus to me. Especially since everyone was already working with the same rules. Also Pun Pun is a purely 3.5 thing so using 3.5 rules seems a little silly since Pun Pun is not possible using PF rules easily without the DM allowing it specifically.

[Escheton]

From what I read of the thread, everyone was already on the consensus which is why we had multiple people already putting up sheets. It was Xavion who came in and LITERALLY said all those sheets are invalid because you have to use 3.5 rules. That does not sound like someone looking for a consensus to me. Especially since everyone was already working with the same rules. Also Pun Pun is a purely 3.5 thing so using 3.5 rules seems a little silly since Pun Pun is not possible using PF rules easily without the DM allowing it specifically.

They are invalid because they are invalid. Pathfinder doesn't have a rule to use them on PC's.
+CR templates seem to exist only as a GM tool for making/changing monsters on the fly.

3.5 however has very specific and stringent rules for it's Templates, and notes the +LA on many.

The sheets aren't invalid solely because the GM ok'd the request. Which bring us back to Pun Pun.

[HereBeMonsters]

They are invalid because they are invalid. Pathfinder doesn't have a rule to use them on PC's.
+CR templates seem to exist only as a GM tool for making/changing monsters on the fly.

3.5 however has very specific and stringent rules for it's Templates, and notes the +LA on many.

The sheets aren't invalid solely because the GM ok'd the request. Which bring us back to Pun Pun.

Except they do because you can become a werewolf in the game which is just "Apply template" which according to you would cause the universe to implode in on itself. Templates can be acquired, such as a player becoming a lich or a vampire. All of these are templates you can apply to a player. But according to you they can't ever exist because you said so. Or maybe its more accurate to say you didn't understand. The CR of a template is added to the monster so a CR 2 template added onto a CR 1 race makes them a CR 3 monster. If your DM allows you to play monsters you can play as a CR 3 monster if your DM allows it.

The DM in this case allowed CR 10, which means Templates can be added so long as they fit, such as matching the correct type of creature to be used on. That is covered in the rules linked on the last page about how to play monsters. I think you get confused that its not the character getting the template, its the monster race that gets the templates then you just use that monster race as your race. You are in effect selecting a Variant version of that monster. So instead of a goblin you are selecting an Advanced Goblin. Kind of how we have Wolf and Dire Wolf as different monsters, a templated version of a monster is its own unique version of that monster.

[Escheton]

Except they do because you can become a werewolf in the game which is just "Apply template" which according to you would cause the universe to implode in on itself. Templates can be acquired, such as a player becoming a lich or a vampire. All of these are templates you can apply to a player. But according to you they can't ever exist because you said so. Or maybe its more accurate to say you didn't understand. The CR of a template is added to the monster so a CR 2 template added onto a CR 1 race makes them a CR 3 monster. If your DM allows you to play monsters you can play as a CR 3 monster if your DM allows it.

The DM in this case allowed CR 10, which means Templates can be added so long as they fit, such as matching the correct type of creature to be used on. That is covered in the rules linked on the last page about how to play monsters. I think you get confused that its not the character getting the template, its the monster race that gets the templates then you just use that monster race as your race. You are in effect selecting a Variant version of that monster. So instead of a goblin you are selecting an Advanced Goblin. Kind of how we have Wolf and Dire Wolf as different monsters, a templated version of a monster is its own unique version of that monster.

No. The allowance of monsters doesn't automatically mean your inferred conclusion. It means the option of playing monster is open.
Jumping to grabbing any CR 1 monster instead of the base races is something existing only in your mind.
No method of playing monsters was given, just that the option is open. Meaning, if there are rules to do so, use them. Which brings us to 3.5 and a 2 paragraph rule in PF that scales the PC levels of Monster races off the level of Non-monsters in the party. Meaning it can't be adjudicated here. Especially in Gestalt.

We can use them to reach a consensus however.

For instance, it states Monster PCs effectively lose half their CR in class levels as they gain experience. Which could be read as CR monsters and templates having additional +LA equal to half their CR. That's a good start I think. It would mean CR 6 costs you 9 levels.
How that works with gestalt sides is of course much more up to debate than this logical step, and RHD might need case by case calls as some CR 6 monsters have more than 9HD.

[HereBeMonsters]

No. The allowance of monsters doesn't automatically mean your inferred conclusion. It means the option of playing monster is open.
Jumping to grabbing any CR 1 monster instead of the base races is something existing only in your mind.
No method of playing monsters was given, just that the option is open. Meaning, if there are rules to do so, use them. Which brings us to 3.5 and a 2 paragraph rule in PF that scales the PC levels of Monster races off the level of Non-monsters in the party. Meaning it can't be adjudicated here. Especially in Gestalt.

So we are going to ignore that the DM allowed a CR 10 creature (Pale Stranger) and a CR +3 Template. But you're right you and Xavion run this thread and game.

[Escheton]

So we are going to ignore that the DM allowed a CR 10 creature (Pale Stranger) and a CR +3 Template. But you're right you and Xavion run this thread and game.

The CR 10 creature wasn't allowed. Reread the actual words. The source from which to find monsters was allowed. The CR 10 was an unconfirmed assumption.
The +3 CR template being allowed doesn't mean you can just swap it out for 3 class levels. It means the template is allowed to use.
How was still up in the air and the cost and rules questioned by the GM multiple times. Notably currently unresolved.

[Xavion]

Yeah, some people seemed to assume you can just freely take templates by giving up levels at a 1:1 ratio with their CR value, and as far as I can tell neither system has rules which indicate this is how you'd treat templates on PCs and the GM hadn't said it, so I asked about how it'd work to get some kind of actual confirmation on things. Then a bunch of people got mad when it wasn't immediately confirmed we should use that interpretation, despite it having essentially nothing to actually support it in the first place.

3.5 never worked that way, and the PF method arguably doesn't support that at all, and even if it does support use of templates it doesn't even support that method and instead supports a different but similar method. If we assume the PF method applied then like, you could take a +4 CR template by only giving up two levels for those +4 CR, and I don't think I saw anyone arguing that maths that you can buy templates for less than a level per CR, but that's the closest you got to the assumed state under the actual rules of either system.

[Lioslaith]

I think if I were doing this I’d just pick the folks I wanted now and avoid all this crap.

[AvatarVecna]

I think if I were doing this I’d just pick the folks I wanted now and avoid all this crap.

Yeah, I kinda regret even piping up to join the discussion tbh. Glad I made a character who doesn't care about how the CR stuff gets ruled to work.

[Lioslaith]

Yeah, I kinda regret even piping up to join the discussion tbh. Glad I made a character who doesn't care about how the CR stuff gets ruled to work.

It’s all just smoke on a foggy day at this point. If we get picked I’d love to tie stories together.

[HereBeMonsters]

I already sent an apology to the OP. Honestly this thread is probably dead. They didn't like the rules of Pathfinder and decided to whine about it so they probably killed the entire game. Hope they are happy.

[Lioslaith]

Here’s hoping we get a more Barbosa approach to applying game mechanics within enough players to fill out the 4-6.

[HereBeMonsters]

Templates get applied in Pathfinder all the time.
Hell the Horse has a whole segment on adding the Advanced Template to it just to make it a Heavy Horse. You can argue all you want that the CR does not justify its use as a player. But per the Playing as Monster rules (https://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary/monstersAsPcs.html) an Advanced monster is just a variant of that original monster with an adjusted CR. A brownie is a CR 1 creature, an Advanced Brownie would be a CR 2. So if you wanted to play an Advanced Brownie you would have to take the CR 2 adjust as ECL so at Level 3 you could play this and have a lvl 1 Bard and two CR racial levels. Yes the official rules also allow for CR buy off, but you dont need to do that if you feel it would give too much power.

If you have a problem with CR rules in Pathfinder thats fine. We can argue that. But the rules do apply. The Templates change the base creature so its no longer the base creature. So a Vampire is not a human anymore, its a Vampire. An Advanced Vampire is a variant but a different monster from Vampire. Looking at say the Jiang-Shi vampire its a CR 6 creature. But its 5 levels of Monk class so its shows that it was a CR 2 template, with one of the CR paid off. This is an official monster block Jiang-Shi Vampire (https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Jiang-Shi) So we see that this is indeed how Pathfinder runs its Templates. Thats OFFICIAL, but if you had a problem with it thats fine but it is in the rules.

Yeah I could just use 3.5 rules to cheese Vampire Lord at lvl 1 I mean I think thats a little unfair though

[Escheton]

Templates get applied in Pathfinder all the time.
Hell the Horse has a whole segment on adding the Advanced Template to it just to make it a Heavy Horse. You can argue all you want that the CR does not justify its use as a player. But per the Playing as Monster rules (https://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary/monstersAsPcs.html) an Advanced monster is just a variant of that original monster with an adjusted CR. A brownie is a CR 1 creature, an Advanced Brownie would be a CR 2. So if you wanted to play an Advanced Brownie you would have to take the CR 2 adjust as ECL so at Level 3 you could play this and have a lvl 1 Bard and two CR racial levels. Yes the official rules also allow for CR buy off, but you dont need to do that if you feel it would give too much power.

If you have a problem with CR rules in Pathfinder thats fine. We can argue that. But the rules do apply. The Templates change the base creature so its no longer the base creature. So a Vampire is not a human anymore, its a Vampire. An Advanced Vampire is a variant but a different monster from Vampire. Looking at say the Jiang-Shi vampire its a CR 6 creature. But its 5 levels of Monk class so its shows that it was a CR 2 template, with one of the CR paid off. This is an official monster block Jiang-Shi Vampire (https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Jiang-Shi) So we see that this is indeed how Pathfinder runs its Templates. Thats OFFICIAL, but if you had a problem with it thats fine but it is in the rules.

Yeah I could just use 3.5 rules to cheese Vampire Lord at lvl 1 I mean I think thats a little unfair though

I guess if you yell and gaslight long enough you might get your way and ignore the game's actual rules. Sure.

[HereBeMonsters]

I guess if you yell and gaslight long enough you might get your way and ignore the game's actual rules. Sure.

I dont think you know what gaslighting is. I posted actual links to the rules and link to actual official stat blocks that confirm what I said. You're replies have always been "There are no rules because I said so, so we should use 3.5 which I like more." Which is just a lie as I have provided the rules and proof of the rules in action.

[samduke]

well lets stop things before they go to far shall we.
the rules as posted https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25938319&postcount=105

[Lioslaith]

@stormwolf I’d be willing to recruit for you if you wanted to run the game. Just throwing it out there.

[HereBeMonsters]

I just wanted to play a cool Vampire Lord Bard. I didn't want this drama either.

[Lioslaith]

I was looking at a vampire antipaladin, we were fast approaching a vampire coven type group, lol

[Escheton]

I dont think you know what gaslighting is. I posted actual links to the rules and link to actual official stat blocks that confirm what I said. You're replies have always been "There are no rules because I said so, so we should use 3.5 which I like more." Which is just a lie as I have provided the rules and proof of the rules in action.

No you haven't. You made a bunch of logical leaps which boil down to "There are rules for the GM to make a town, so now I have my own town as a player". And I don't know how to make that more clear to you. Nor the impact of saying things like "this thread is effectively dead" when your crazy overpowered idea gets factchecked

Look, my opening post here was basically "we doing crazy overpowered? Dibs on this one". I'm not specifically against it. But browbeating rule assumptions and misreading GM rulings to get the most bad faith interpretation of things doesn't sit well with me (and seemingly others as well), and deserves to be called out.

[HereBeMonsters]

I was looking at a vampire antipaladin, we were fast approaching a vampire coven type group, lol
That sounds like a cool concept. And we are considered "Ugly" by the goddess so being undead would make us "Ugly"

[Lioslaith]

That sounds like a cool concept. And we are considered "Ugly" by the goddess so being undead would make us "Ugly"

Definitely ugly. I was thinking a character that struggles with the more blood thirsty evil aspects of what he is and who his coven mates are. Maybe someone who fights against that stuff but it still doggedly pragmatic and ruthless. Just has his own laws and moral compass he follows without deviation.

[HereBeMonsters]

Definitely ugly. I was thinking a character that struggles with the more blood thirsty evil aspects of what he is and who his coven mates are. Maybe someone who fights against that stuff but it still doggedly pragmatic and ruthless. Just has his own laws and moral compass he follows without deviation.

Thats how I viewed mine too. Very pragmatic and ruthless about getting what needs to be done, done. She is a bard so uses her charm and wit to encourage those she does care about. She has her own personal code that she follows and unless someone betrays her then she sees the well being of her allies and friends as essential.

[AvatarVecna]

I was considering vampire cleric at some point but it just wasn't clicking, and since we only had the one goddess to base things on, I wasn't even sure who they'd worship. That got scrapped cuz of the kerfuffle.

[Lioslaith]

We could definitely do a whole vampire themed group. That likely being the underlying reason we are considered ugly. For a cleric just take a page from 5e and worship the idea of vampires being superior to humans. "Humans are friends, not food."

[AvatarVecna]

We could definitely do a whole vampire themed group. That likely being the underlying reason we are considered ugly. For a cleric just take a page from 5e and worship the idea of vampires being superior to humans. "Humans are friends, not food."

I mean I've kinda fallen in love with the silly lumberjack thing, so I'm happy with what I've got. I do worry he won't be super-useful though.

[HereBeMonsters]

I didnt plan on being all that jacked. I mean a Bard can only ever be so powerful.
Though I am forced to switch up my build if all I have to do is take 1 level of vampire class and get vampire lord. Thats 9 levels of another to play with. I much rather fill one side with CRs.

[samduke]

well of my multiple thoughts I had considered a different take on the character Marceline from a certain anime.
but that hinges on the dread vampire template more than anything.

my other thought
Dhampir (11 RP)
Synthesist Summoner 10
Executioner Slayer 10

[JNAProductions]

I am just smol rat crafter. (And arsonist.)

[HereBeMonsters]

I am just smol rat crafter. (And arsonist.)

thats cool. I just wanted to do a little vampire bard. But I guess that was too much.

[JNAProductions]

thats cool. I just wanted to do a little vampire bard. But I guess that was too much.

I think that, provided everyone is roughly in the same power band (regardless of how that's achieved) the game would work fine.

Vampire Lord doesn't strike me as especially unbalanced or detrimental to the game.
I say just make your PC, and see what the DM thinks.

Because, let's face it: LA or CR, there's imbalance. Some things are overly good for their CR, some stink. Most things with LA suck, but the ones that are worth it are (usually in gestalt) worth it.

[Xavion]

I'd looked at Jiang-Shi myself, hence why I wound up asking about how we were actually supposed to use templates/monster stuff here and what sparked all this.

Thinking just like, monk/barb, most of the work was figuring out alignment till big16 said just ignore alignment, and considered jiang-shi depending on how those rules worked. Very simple mechanically, some straightforward brutish evil too, nothing extreme or machiavellian, just a more simple thuggish sort.

[HereBeMonsters]

I think that, provided everyone is roughly in the same power band (regardless of how that's achieved) the game would work fine.

Vampire Lord doesn't strike me as especially unbalanced or detrimental to the game.
I say just make your PC, and see what the DM thinks.

Because, let's face it: LA or CR, there's imbalance. Some things are overly good for their CR, some stink. Most things with LA suck, but the ones that are worth it are (usually in gestalt) worth it.

Its why I picked Dread Vampire + Vampire Lord its a lot of overlap, its empty CR mostly Vampire Lord gets much of what Dread Vampire gives anyway. Its big selling point was the weakness changes which Vampire Lord amends anyway. I picked it to fill out the CR difference. The big difference is stat boosts which is a +6 over a +4 into Cha so not game breaking.
But as Vampire Lord was never approved I cant use it.

[Hellfire014]

Just gonna toss in some interest, a sheet, and a table before things get too far off the rails. Only thing I'm requesting that hasn't already been approved is the Beastly flaw from Dragon 329.

Introducing Moriko, an arrogant and power-hungry Kitsune with a focus on the Nature Sphere (Battlefield Control).



Player
Character
Race/Classes
Role/Concept
Complete



Hellfire014
Moriko (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867252)
Kitsune Frostweaver Incanter // Spellvampire Shifter
BFC/Utility/Spellthief
Mostly



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[JNAProductions]

Player
Character
Race/Classes
Role/Concept
Complete


Hellfire014
Moriko (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867252)
Kitsune Frostweaver Incanter // Spellvampire Shifter
BFC/Utility/S
Mostly


JNAProductions
Bessel (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13BTXECvhnDi-9fmvzO7KNF71NFVUMGw9Sx2hF8Ye6XU/edit?usp=sharing)
Advanced Young Ratfolk Artificer//Scout
Damage And Crafts
Mostly


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[Escheton]

I mean I've kinda fallen in love with the silly lumberjack thing, so I'm happy with what I've got. I do worry he won't be super-useful though.

There's this one meme-thread where someone mentioned that in mosquitos, only pregnant females suck blood really. Which then got drawn in parallel to Vampires. And the whole thread adorably devolved from there, ending in a picture of a fully Gothed-out Vampire chasing prey, then cutting to her Bearded Canadian Lumberjack Husband sucking on a tree. I just for the love of me can't find it.

[Triskavanski]

Player
Character
Race/Classes
Role/Concept
Complete


Hellfire014
Moriko (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867252)
Kitsune Frostweaver Incanter // Spellvampire Shifter
BFC/Utility/S
Mostly


JNAProductions
Bessel (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13BTXECvhnDi-9fmvzO7KNF71NFVUMGw9Sx2hF8Ye6XU/edit?usp=sharing)
Advanced Young Ratfolk Artificer//Scout
Damage And Crafts
Mostly


Triskavanski
Neuro (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2541494)
Kitsune Warlock vigilante | Slayer?
Damage, sneak and spells
halfway


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[HereBeMonsters]

So should I even try to make a character at this point because I keep getting told I shouldn't

[Yas392]

Going simple character without templates and such. Discussions about LA and CR tend to get heated and devolve into disagreements and arguments of who is right or wrong.

[Stormwolf69]

@GM
these were not addressed
hrm well definitely cleared up a few things

I guess I will request these monsters as races
Bog Nixie (CR +3)
Div, Doru (CR +2)
Petal (3.5 MM3 Cr +1 Or Level Adjustment +2)

I will request these templates
Dread Vampire Template (CR +3)[3pp]
Half-Succubus Template (CR +1)
Simple Aerial Creature Template (CR +0 or +1)
Simple Advanced Template (CR +1)
Ferral Creature Template (SS p115) (CR +4 or Level Adjustment +1)
DM = I will allow them



RE: CR and LVL Adjustment, in 3.5 many monsters and templates have CR and LA, if we use the PF rule for CR, but I would also tend to agree that there should be a cap on RHD regardless of CR capping at 10RHD or the creatures own CR value whichever is greater RHD/CR + Template CR =10, not over 10

I agree and I was thinking the same thing after reviewing this https://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary/monstersAsPcs.html As for abuse well the players are the overlords there are ways to correct it like sending stronger champions to counter them. As I prefer to go with the rule of Cool.

and everyone thank you for setting up the chart. well, I was at work.

[Hellfire014]

Player
Character
Race/Classes
Role/Concept
Complete


Hellfire014
Moriko (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867252)
Kitsune Frostweaver Incanter // Spellvampire Shifter
BFC/Utility/Spellthief
Yes


JNAProductions
Bessel (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13BTXECvhnDi-9fmvzO7KNF71NFVUMGw9Sx2hF8Ye6XU/edit?usp=sharing)
Advanced Young Ratfolk Artificer//Scout
Damage And Crafts
Mostly


Triskavanski
Neuro (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2541494)
Kitsune Warlock vigilante | Slayer?
Damage, sneak and spells
halfway


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Sheet done, might transfer it to an auto-sheet for better organization later.

@Stormwolf69 Is the Beastly flaw (Dragon 329) ok?

[Stormwolf69]

@Stormwolf69 Is the Beastly flaw (Dragon 329) ok?

ya, no problem I have been mostly letting you guys go wild.

[Triskavanski]

Since people are doing spheres of power/might, I think it'll be better for me to switch from Slayer to Conscript

[Aegis013]

Player
Character
Race/Classes
Role/Concept
Complete


Hellfire014
Moriko (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867252)
Kitsune Frostweaver Incanter // Spellvampire Shifter
BFC/Utility/Spellthief
Yes


JNAProductions
Bessel (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13BTXECvhnDi-9fmvzO7KNF71NFVUMGw9Sx2hF8Ye6XU/edit?usp=sharing)
Advanced Young Ratfolk Artificer//Scout
Damage And Crafts
Mostly


Triskavanski
Neuro (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2541494)
Kitsune Warlock vigilante | Slayer?
Damage, sneak and spells
halfway


Aegis013
Phage (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867292)
Necropolitan Parasite//Binder
Stealth, Utility, Summons/Minions
Yes


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[HereBeMonsters]

Are we doing traits? Was just curious.

[AvatarVecna]

Player
Character
Race/Classes
Role/Concept
Complete


Hellfire014
Moriko (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867252)
Kitsune Frostweaver Incanter // Spellvampire Shifter
BFC/Utility/Spellthief
Yes


JNAProductions
Bessel (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13BTXECvhnDi-9fmvzO7KNF71NFVUMGw9Sx2hF8Ye6XU/edit?usp=sharing)
Advanced Young Ratfolk Artificer//Scout
Damage And Crafts
Mostly


Triskavanski
Neuro (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2541494)
Kitsune Warlock vigilante | Slayer?
Damage, sneak and spells
halfway


Aegis013
Phage (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867292)
Necropolitan Parasite//Binder
Stealth, Utility, Summons/Minions
Yes


AvatarVecna
Viggu (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867083)
Orc Barbarian//Fighter
Ugly Lumberjack (Melee DPR)
Yes


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[HereBeMonsters]

Yeah seeing the "Power Level" you are all apping at makes me think everything spoken about is a bit too much.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah seeing the "Power Level" you are all apping at makes me think everything spoken about is a bit too much.

I mean, it's just level 10. Not quite the same "going hogwild" opportunity that a high-epic game offers. Besides, it's a lot of effort, and it's usually rewarded with a disappearing DM anyway.

[TheAlmightyKue]

Player
Character
Race/Classes
Role/Concept
Complete


Hellfire014
Moriko (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867252)
Kitsune Frostweaver Incanter // Spellvampire Shifter
BFC/Utility/Spellthief
Yes


JNAProductions
Bessel (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13BTXECvhnDi-9fmvzO7KNF71NFVUMGw9Sx2hF8Ye6XU/edit?usp=sharing)
Advanced Young Ratfolk Artificer//Scout
Damage And Crafts
Mostly


Triskavanski
Neuro (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2541494)
Kitsune Warlock vigilante | Slayer?
Damage, sneak and spells
halfway


Aegis013
Phage (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867292)
Necropolitan Parasite//Binder
Stealth, Utility, Summons/Minions
Yes


AvatarVecna
Viggu (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867083)
Orc Barbarian//Fighter
Ugly Lumberjack (Melee DPR)
Yes


TheAlmightyKue
Enola (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867030)
Young Advanced Cabal Devil//Witch
BFC, Debuffs, Magical Assistance
Yes


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I am hoping this is still valid to post. Otherwise will need to work on a while new concept.
Edit: Very curious what Samduke has planned with those creatures and those templates. If there is a tiny little vampire creature flying around I am gonna have my girl stay far away xD.

[HereBeMonsters]

I don't have her history down yet or that. But I have some of her done.
Mina Harkness (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867463)
You tell me, too much?

[samduke]

Edit: Very curious what Samduke has planned with those creatures and those templates. If there is a tiny little vampire creature flying around I am gonna have my girl stay far away xD.

Think i mentioned i had several ideas

[namo]

There are pretty clearly two categories (no, I don't mean vampires vs kitsunes, though that would be fun :smallwink:) in posted characters: templated vs non-templated.

HereBeMonsters, your PC belongs with TheAlmightyKue's (you both have a +15 modifier in your main attribute), not - I think - with the other PCs, who are not ready to face spell DCs at 25+spell level (if the DM throws at you things as strong as you are).
I believe that's all I, and others, have been pointing out. Either set of PCs is more than fine, but personally I don't think it would be fun to be the normie(s) in a party of super-heroes.

I'm still waiting to see what the DM thinks the target power level should be.

[Escheton]

Also, I think I might close it off to new interests before we get swamped with players.

This was floated a bit back. Was it intended as a hard cutoff or just an indication that too much new interest would quickly shrink that window?

[samduke]

@Stormwolf69

more because I have 2 main ideas the first a bit more powerful and templated and the 2nd less and not templated will you permit 2 character applications ?

Would you permit a class to be on both sides of the gestalt ? (IE class a for 2 levels on side 1 and then a few character levels later appear for 2 levels on side 2 type thing) ??

edited

[Xavion]

Basic other questions beyond the template thing would be like, feat tax rules, background skills, or the like available?

I'm staring right now at whether or not to take a template, might create both versions? They'd be pretty similar. Looks like PF rules for CR to level conversion based on the most recent comment on it, which is basically 1:1 with a few caveats.

[Lioslaith]

I’m still just doing the anti paladin.

[Escheton]

@Stormwolf69

more because I have 2 main ideas the first a bit more powerful and templated and the 2nd less and not templated will you permit 2 character applications ?

Would you permit a class to be on both sides of the gestalt ? (IE class a for 2 levels on side 1 and then a few character levels later appear for 2 levels on side 2 type thing) ??

edited

That's is how it works by Raw. You combine 2 classes to compose a level of gestalt. None of us have actual class levels. Just 10 levels of gestalt. Technically we can't even get favored class bonuses.
The sides are just a book-keeping aid that became a houserule staple.

[samduke]

That's is how it works by Raw. You combine 2 classes to compose a level of gestalt. None of us have actual class levels. Just 10 levels of gestalt. Technically we can't even get favored class bonuses.
The sides are just a book-keeping aid that became a houserule staple.

I do not think you understood the question, When it comes to gestalt I am a Master.
the question here was if a class is on one side can it appear on the other, *sometimes a gm will not permit this

favored class bonuses are applied to the "CLASS" has nothing to do with Gestalt

[HereBeMonsters]

There are pretty clearly two categories (no, I don't mean vampires vs kitsunes, though that would be fun :smallwink:) in posted characters: templated vs non-templated.

HereBeMonsters, your PC belongs with TheAlmightyKue's (you both have a +15 modifier in your main attribute), not - I think - with the other PCs, who are not ready to face spell DCs at 25+spell level (if the DM throws at you things as strong as you are).
I believe that's all I, and others, have been pointing out. Either set of PCs is more than fine, but personally I don't think it would be fun to be the normie(s) in a party of super-heroes.

I'm still waiting to see what the DM thinks the target power level should be.

I'm noticing this. I am wondering what Stormwolf69 has in mind for opponents. If they intend to use anything moderately optimized as well as gestalt (since they seem to have implied they were going to at least meet abilities head-on) I can't see that going well without them holding back a lot. I mean the party is facing down a Goddess and her army of minions, you are trying to get revenge on her, cut out your own slice of the world, whatever. Like what does the party do if they are facing down 5 Gestalt Paladins with any level of optimization to make them work as a unit? You aren't just average joes out on an adventure you are defying this worlds goddess and wanting to overthrow her or whatever. What does the party do when faced with the whole world that hates them and they can't make allies without things like create spawn or use summons?

I do think we need to talk about that.

[Lioslaith]

I'm noticing this. I am wondering what Stormwolf69 has in mind for opponents. If they intend to use anything moderately optimized as well as gestalt (since they seem to have implied they were going to at least meet abilities head-on) I can't see that going well without them holding back a lot. I mean the party is facing down a Goddess and her army of minions, you are trying to get revenge on her, cut out your own slice of the world, whatever. Like what does the party do if they are facing down 5 Gestalt Paladins with any level of optimization to make them work as a unit? You aren't just average joes out on an adventure you are defying this worlds goddess and wanting to overthrow her or whatever. What does the party do when faced with the whole world that hates them and they can't make allies without things like create spawn or use summons?

I do think we need to talk about that.

What-if’ing how the dm will possibly run the game is an exercise in futility at this point. We just need to trust that once character selections are made the dm will do their job and balance encounters and play to the power level of the chosen few.

[Stormwolf69]

For instance: a feat (https://dndtools.org/feats/heroes-of-battle--69/extra-followers--1020/) and an item (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-the-ecclesiarch) together.
With the afore mentioned Orc Warlord (https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/realms/orcwarlord.shtml) prestige at 3 levels or more.

@GM: What rules are we using for Leadership Cohorts? Also gestalt? Max HP?
I'm looking into Spheres of Guile to make a fun Lieutenant.

Also, are there even Orcs in this world? Or is it like "Uncle from Another World" where people see us Goddess-cursed people as Orcs just because we aren't So-Cal hot? And that qualifies the poor downtrodden souls as Orc Warlord followers? *Nudge nudge*

Background skills so we can max out things like Profession (Sailor) without it costing us power?


let's start with the easy one Cohorts can't have leadership feats. Gestalt and max HP have been talked about.

As for orcs, there are Orc fortress settlements in the wasteland each one has a type of orcs like common, black, ex. there are also Goblins that are easy to find. there are ogre settlements of ogre Magi calling themselves Oni. a city of Ratmen and wererats. There is a nomadic tribe of Lycanthropes and Kitsune that have spell Jammers if you can find them. and on the Coast, there is the city of Necromancers.

sorry for not paying much attention to the forms i was doing some finishing tuches on the map of the wasteland and trying to find a good spot to drop you guys off on.

[Escheton]

I do not think you understood the question, When it comes to gestalt I am a Master.
the question here was if a class is on one side can it appear on the other, *sometimes a gm will not permit this

favored class bonuses are applied to the "CLASS" has nothing to do with Gestalt

Do you not mean the following effect?:

Lvl 1: Fighter1//Wizard1
Lvl 2: Fighter2//Wizard2
Lvl 3: Fighter3//Wizard3
Lvl 4: Fighter4//Wizard4
Lvl 5: Fighter5//Wizard5
Lvl 6: Eldritch Knight1//Wizard6
Lvl 7: Eldritch Knight2//Fighter6

Because this is Raw. Disallowing it is the house-rule.

[HereBeMonsters]

let's start with the easy one Cohorts can't have leadership feats. Gestalt and max HP have been talked about.

As for orcs, there are Orc fortress settlements in the wasteland each one has a type of orcs like common, black, ex. there are also Goblins that are easy to find. there are ogre settlements of ogre Magi calling themselves Oni. a city of Ratmen and wererats. There is a nomadic tribe of Lycanthropes and Kitsune that have spell Jammers if you can find them. and on the Coast, there is the city of Necromancers.

sorry for not paying much attention to the forms i was doing some finishing tuches on the map of the wasteland and trying to find a good spot to drop you guys off on.

Can you please answer, what is the range of power you are going for? Because we seem to have a split here and some people holding off making their characters till we can decide on whats going on. Should they be pretty average gestalt or monster gestalt which by default will have higher stats.

[samduke]

Escheton - in the future take note of whom things are addressed to - @Stormwolf69 is the GM
you are not the gm let them make their ruling on it and if you take this as rude , I really do not care


@Stormwolf69
I think I had 2 things missed
1: were you allowing multiple applications by players?
2: as the gestalt rules do not actually say that one can have the same class/prc on both sides at different levels, are you allowing this OR are classes/prc's restricted to be taken only on 1 side

[Escheton]

Escheton - in the future take note of whom things are addressed to - @Stormwolf69 is the GM
you are not the gm let them make their ruling on it and if you take this as rude , I really do not care

You were asking for permission for something that is covered by the basic rules. Making it moot. I figured you would like to know. Pointing it out is the nice thing to do.
Don't let your hurt ego after the misplaced boast of being a Master make you project things. It is you who is being rude here.

[samduke]

@Stormwolf69

more because I have 2 main ideas the first a bit more powerful and templated and the 2nd less and not templated will you permit 2 character applications ?

Would you permit a class to be on both sides of the gestalt ? (IE class a for 2 levels on side 1 and then a few character levels later appear for 2 levels on side 2 type thing) ??

edited


You were asking for permission for something that is covered by the basic rules. .

ok slick find it and prove that the gestalt rules state exactly what you claim

[TheAlmightyKue]

I felt mine wasn't that bad. Can we get a scale here to work off of please.

[Escheton]

ok slick find it and prove that the gestalt rules state exactly what you claim

It's a one page rule document ("https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm). I'm not sure how better to convey that the following indicates that composing each level is a separate thing and a gestalt character that went Sorcerer/Rogue at level 1, and Sorcerer/Fighter at level 2 is just a Sorcerer2/Fighter1/Rogue1. No matter how you write it down or how their bonuses for those two levels added up. Nor do I seem able to convey that it's a logical leap from something being allowed to a player adjudicating the cost of that something themselves like it happened throughout this thread in regards to templates. Nor do I seem to be capable of making clear that putting an unkillable vampire lord into the world with an AC of 50 poses a problem for the other characters attacking at +25/+20. So no, not quite so slick.


"In this high-powered campaign variant, characters essentially take two classes at every level, choosing the best aspects of each. The process is similar to multiclassing, except that characters gain the full benefits of each class at each level. if the two classes you choose have aspects that overlap (such as Hit Dice, attack progression, saves, and class features common to more than one class), you choose the better aspect. The gestalt character retains all aspects that don’t overlap."

"A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics."

"A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters."

[Aegis013]

samduke is still correct in the assertion that some GMs disallow it, even though I agree with your logic on the matter Escherton. Ultimately, only Stormwolf can provide a definitive answer for this particular game. A sentiment also expressed by samduke.

Most of the back and forth between players in this thread is all stuff that sits firmly in the GM's purview. I think it would be prudent to simply let Stormwolf weigh in as they see fit.

[TheAlmightyKue]

It's a one page rule document ("https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm). I'm not sure how better to convey that the following indicates that composing each level is a separate thing and a gestalt character that went Sorcerer/Rogue at level 1, and Sorcerer/Fighter at level 2 is just a Sorcerer2/Fighter1/Rogue1. No matter how you write it down or how their bonuses for those two levels added up. Nor do I seem able to convey that it's a logical leap from something being allowed to a player adjudicating the cost of that something themselves like it happened throughout this thread in regards to templates. Nor do I seem to be capable of making clear that putting an unkillable vampire lord into the world with an AC of 50 poses a problem for the other characters attacking at +25/+20. So no, not quite so slick.
You are not the DM, please stop answering for them. No one cares about your opinions least of all when you try to rules lawyer everything. We get it, you think you are god. No one cares.

[AvatarVecna]

Just in case the higher-power stuff is where the DM would prefer to aim, I'm looking at an alternate version of Viggu. Spheres stuff looks to already be popular so that helps. Are grod's classes all on the table too?

[niw18]

is this still looking for players

[samduke]

Updating Table



Player
Character
Race/Classes
Role/Concept
Complete


Hellfire014
Moriko (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867252)
Kitsune Frostweaver Incanter // Spellvampire Shifter
BFC/Utility/Spellthief
Yes


JNAProductions
Bessel (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13BTXECvhnDi-9fmvzO7KNF71NFVUMGw9Sx2hF8Ye6XU/edit?usp=sharing)
Advanced Young Ratfolk Artificer//Scout
Damage And Crafts
Mostly


Triskavanski
Neuro (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2541494)
Kitsune Warlock vigilante | Slayer?
Damage, sneak and spells
halfway


Aegis013
Phage (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867292)
Necropolitan Parasite//Binder
Stealth, Utility, Summons/Minions
Yes


AvatarVecna
Viggu (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867083)
Orc Barbarian//Fighter
Ugly Lumberjack (Melee DPR)
Yes


TheAlmightyKue
Enola (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867030)
Young Advanced Cabal Devil//Witch
BFC, Debuffs, Magical Assistance
Yes


Samduke
Marceline (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867761)
Petal/Dread Vampire/ Anti-Paladin/ Conscript // Oracle/Slayer
Damage/Utility/sneak and spells
Yes


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[HereBeMonsters]

Updating Table



Player
Character
Race/Classes
Role/Concept
Complete


Hellfire014
Moriko (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867252)
Kitsune Frostweaver Incanter // Spellvampire Shifter
BFC/Utility/Spellthief
Yes


JNAProductions
Bessel (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13BTXECvhnDi-9fmvzO7KNF71NFVUMGw9Sx2hF8Ye6XU/edit?usp=sharing)
Advanced Young Ratfolk Artificer//Scout
Damage And Crafts
Mostly


Triskavanski
Neuro (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2541494)
Kitsune Warlock vigilante | Slayer?
Damage, sneak and spells
halfway


Aegis013
Phage (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867292)
Necropolitan Parasite//Binder
Stealth, Utility, Summons/Minions
Yes


AvatarVecna
Viggu (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867083)
Orc Barbarian//Fighter
Ugly Lumberjack (Melee DPR)
Yes


TheAlmightyKue
Enola (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867030)
Young Advanced Cabal Devil//Witch
BFC, Debuffs, Magical Assistance
Yes


Samduke
Marceline (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867761)
Petal/Dread Vampire/ Anti-Paladin/ Conscript // Oracle/Slayer
Damage/Utility/sneak and spells
Yes


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This makes me want to do the idea I had for a Lamp Blighter Dread Vampire. Fey Vampires for the win.

[Stormwolf69]

ok back from work let's see if I don't miss any questions.

my other thought
Dhampir (11 RP)
Synthesist Summoner 10
Executioner Slayer 10

approved.

Are we doing traits? Was just curious.

well, I know I am allowing 0-2 flaws so I will allow traits.


I'm still waiting to see what the DM thinks the target power level should be.

DM looks at the folder of cannon-fodder characters heros (and some based on animes that he likes.) he has made up and is ready to see what the party does to them if not go back to the drawing board.

In fact, I am interested in seeing what mark you do to this homebrew world in General. :biggrin:


1: were you allowing multiple applications by players?
2: as the gestalt rules do not say that one can have the same class/prc on both sides at different levels, are you allowing this OR are classes/prc's restricted to be taken only on 1 side
yes, But you can only pay as one and yes same class/prc on both sides at different levels,



I'm noticing this. I am wondering what Stormwolf69 has in mind for opponents. If they intend to use anything moderately optimized as well as gestalt (since they seem to have implied they were going to at least meet abilities head-on) I can't see that going well without them holding back a lot. I mean the party is facing down a Goddess and her army of minions, you are trying to get revenge on her, cut out your own slice of the world, whatever. Like what does the party do if they are facing down 5 Gestalt Paladins with any level of optimization to make them work as a unit? You aren't just average joes out on an adventure you are defying this worlds goddess and wanting to overthrow her or whatever. What does the party do when faced with the whole world that hates them and they can't make allies without things like create spawn or use summons?

In the Begging the factions of the Waste Lands are very chaotic, with different factions buying for power. I think it is the Goddess and the pet empire of Man that is where the real I start cracking knuckles.

As their empire in the beginning does not even know anything about you. Then there is the demon King on the other side of the map.

Can you please answer, what is the range of power you are going for? Because we seem to have a split here and some people holding off making their characters till we can decide on what's going on. Should they be pretty average gestalt or monster gestalt which by default will have higher stats?

I would prefer you guys in the same rang as it would makes things easier.

[Escheton]

Can we have used items in our possession when starting off? For instance, the inherent stat tomes require to be read over a period of time to work.
Can we simply pay the item cost and add the inherent bonus as part of the Isekai transformation?

How about things like spellcaster services or casting things from scrolls. Could one for instance start with a permanent See Invisibility spell on us by paying the scroll(s) cost and having the ability to easily make the UMD check? Perhaps have paid spellcasting services for the Permanency spells which aren't self-only? How about having a summon or cohort having done such a thing?
Planar Binding stuff is within our scope.

Basically, can we be assumed to have had spend some time to do non-crafting things? Big ask->(Perhaps have visited places of power, even)


The addendum question then follows; Tomes of Inherent stats lose their magic once read. Making it a one-use item. Not all such things are.
Could one effective buy-use-sell such items for half the normal cost as usual? (barring any shenanigans like rogue talents that let's you buy/sell things for sell/more) of course. Which are assumed unless stated otherwise to not work in character creation.

For instance the Sparring Dummy of the Master lets one make 10ft steps instead of 5ft. Could one spend 15k for that effect if the item should be requested (hereby) and ok'd?


Sparring Dummy of the Master: This battered wooden dummy is designed for monks to practice their striking and blocking techniques. It consists of a plain round wooden post that stands 6 feet high and 1 foot thick. Six smaller posts stick out horizontally from the post, roughly representing a defending enemy’s limbs.

To gain the benefit of its magic, a person with at least one level in monk must train with the dummy 8 hours a day for four weeks. If the training is ever interrupted for more than a 24 hours, she must begin again. If this training is interrupted twice, the monk can never gain the benefit of the sparring dummy.

Once she has completed the required training, the monk is allowed to make a 10-foot adjustment when¬ ever she can normally make a 5 foot adjustment.

Caster Level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, haste; Market Price: 30,000 gp; Weight: 40 lb.


Follow-up:
How are Necropolitans handled? The transformation takes 24 hours, has a cost of 3000gp, a level (like Raise Dead) and an additional 1k XP cost. But the quick-template just has +0 LA because being lower level with less XP evens out over time because you gain more being behind a level. While +1 LA for instance would just be treated as a higher level, and thus (without LA buy-off) would just be one level of classes behind the rest permanently.
However, we are just dropped from the sky and have a stated level, but no stated XP. Can we just treat them a +0 LA and move on, or is it more involved than that?

also: Repeating the request for Dread Wraith Sovereign (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dread-wraith-sovereign-cr-3), with the addition that the disability to carry anything or use spell components is assumed part of the incorporeal subtype, and not somehow something that the template gives.

and to clarify, Suzerain was deemed gamebreaking, but never actually removed from the allowed material list, correct?
-----

As cursed by the Goddess, what is our social standing? Can we use material that requires us to be nobility/blue blooded or such?
How about regional background? This is a homebrew world. So I doubt it has "Brevoy". Can we just ignore locational requirements or is all of it off limits?

[niw18]

I am requesting


http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/bear for sphere and Multibear, Juvenile (CR 9)

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?195580-Lord-of-the-Uttercold-3-5-Base-Class-PEACH with request replace spellcasting with sphere casting



my idea for this build is

side 1 = 9 multibear and 1 incanter

side 2= The Lord of the Uttercold 10

[HereBeMonsters]

So is Mina good and I can add her to the chart or should I actually finish this Lamp Blighter dread vampire half-succubus idea, which is turning out much weaker (intentionally making them closer to Samdukes level) but also insane, invisible vampire fey shooting arrows of sleep at you.

[Escheton]

Requesting this template (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/sublime-creature-cr-2/)
and for the 16 to be added in to the first post, making it easier to find the overview.

If need be I could archive the current requests. Sorted by pending, allowed, disallowed. If that would make it easier.
This thread and the vast possibilities it opts has created a lot of posts to sift through, after all.

[samduke]

So is Mina good and I can add her to the chart or should I actually finish this Lamp Blighter dread vampire half-succubus idea, which is turning out much weaker (intentionally making them closer to Samdukes level) but also insane, invisible vampire fey shooting arrows of sleep at you.

invisible ?? I do not recall that as an option LOL

[HereBeMonsters]

invisible ?? I do not recall that as an option LOL
Lamp blighters are always invisible and have a small chance at plucking out eyes. So shall I finish this and we have a pair of 2’ tall vampire fey?

[namo]

Withdrawn. Good gaming!

[samduke]

Lamp blighters are always invisible and have a small chance at plucking out eyes. So shall I finish this and we have a pair of 2’ tall vampire fey?

could be fun

[Yas392]

Withdrawing interest.

[Stormwolf69]

I am requesting


http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/bear for sphere and Multibear, Juvenile (CR 9)

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?195580-Lord-of-the-Uttercold-3-5-Base-Class-PEACH with request replace spellcasting with sphere casting



ok and ok






Requesting this template
and for the 16 to be added in to the first post, making it easier to find the overview.

If need be I could archive the current requests. Sorted by pending, allowed, disallowed. If that would make it easier.
This thread and the vast possibilities it opts has created a lot of posts to sift through, after all.

ok for the template and yes the thread is getting to be a bit of a mess.

Q Can we have used items in our possession when starting off? For instance, the inherent stat tomes
yes for the tomes.

The addendum question then follows; Tomes of Inherent stats lose their magic once read. Making it a one-use item.
A) yes that is rules as written.

Dread Wraith Sovereign
allowing


Q So is Mina good and I can add her to the chart or should I actually finish this Lamp Blighter dread vampire half-succubus idea,
A you can it is up to you

[Hellfire014]

Gave it some thought, and realized I don't need the Transformation feats to do what I want.

Is this (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Kitsune#None_of_that_Weeaboo_Crap,_Either_(Ex)) allowed? Should be the last request from me.

[Stormwolf69]

Gave it some thought, and realized I don't need the Transformation feats to do what I want.

Is this (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Kitsune#None_of_that_Weeaboo_Crap,_Either_(Ex)) allowed? Should be the last request from me.

I will allow it

Just remember that anything I allow can and will be used against you.

[Hellfire014]

I wouldn't expect otherwise.

Updated to an auto-sheet. I personally find the extra room easier for gestalt, also nice to have easier notes for abilities. If you want me to go back to the myth-weavers sheet let me know.



Player
Character
Race/Classes
Role/Concept
Complete


Hellfire014
Moriko (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17lCaSMbQG5HGJtNPeJxbd_3E0yf4Q7eWMulHQuAczMg/edit?usp=sharing)
Kitsune Frostweaver Incanter // Spellvampire Shifter
BFC/Utility/Spellthief
Yes


JNAProductions
Bessel (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13BTXECvhnDi-9fmvzO7KNF71NFVUMGw9Sx2hF8Ye6XU/edit?usp=sharing)
Advanced Young Ratfolk Artificer//Scout
Damage And Crafts
Mostly


Triskavanski
Neuro (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2541494)
Kitsune Warlock vigilante | Slayer?
Damage, sneak and spells
halfway


Aegis013
Phage (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867292)
Necropolitan Parasite//Binder
Stealth, Utility, Summons/Minions
Yes


AvatarVecna
Viggu (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867083)
Orc Barbarian//Fighter
Ugly Lumberjack (Melee DPR)
Yes


TheAlmightyKue
Enola (https://og.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2867030)
Young Advanced Cabal Devil//Witch
BFC, Debuffs, Magical Assistance
Yes


Samduke
Marceline (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/?id=2867761)
Petal/Dread Vampire/ Anti-Paladin/ Conscript // Oracle/Slayer
Damage/Utility/sneak and spells
Yes


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