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View Full Version : Rules Q&A 3.5: How do you measure the duration of one round? (Hunter's Mercy, Sticky Fingers)



Duke of Urrel
2023-12-31, 07:04 PM
I have just read Khedrac's answer to Yora's question, Q 24, in the Simple RAW for 3.5 thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?662453-Simple-RAW-for-3-5-38-pages-and-I-still-don-t-know-how-to-play-D-amp-D/page3).

Khedrac's answer is the same that I would have given. I have always played according to the rule that Khedrac mentioned. If a spell's duration is one round, that spell lasts from the end of your spellcasting action until the start of your next turn.

However, as I went looking for place where this rule is stated explicitly, I could not find one.

There is a rule (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundCastaSpell) that a spellcasting action whose casting time is one round ends at the start of your next turn. However, this rule refers to an action that you take, not to the effect of this action.

If I wanted to measure the duration of a one-round-duration spell exactly, I would start counting at the end of your spellcasting action. Suppose your spellcasting action is one standard action and you take it immediately after your turn begins. To measure the duration of your spell as precisely as possible, I would start counting immediately after your spellcasting action ends. So if your spell's effect has a duration of exactly one round, it should last not only until your next turn begins, but also the length of one standard action after that.

This method of measuring seems too fussy to be useful. To keep it simple, we should say that the effect of a spell with a duration of one round should last until either the start of your next turn or the end of your next turn.

But ... which should it be?

In D&D version 5.0, the True Strike spell takes one standard action to cast and lasts one round. Thus, the spell cannot work unless we assume that a spell with a duration of one round lasts not only until your next turn begins, but until it ends.

In D&D version 3.5, the True Strike spell does not have this problem, because its duration is "See text," and the text says this (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueStrike.htm).

You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.

Most other spells in D&D version 3.5 also work just fine if we assume that spells with one-round durations last only until your next turn begins. Most spells that affect the spellcaster's next action are swift-action spells. There are a lot of them in the SPELL COMPENDIUM v. 3.5. Since casting a swift-action spell takes negligible time, the spell can easily affect your next action, because you can easily take this action before your current turn ends. All these spells work just fine.

However...

There are two spells that don't work just fine: the Hunter's Mercy spell and the Sticky Fingers spell. These spells have a casting time of one standard action.

The Hunter's Mercy spell appears on page 117 of the SPELL COMPENDIUM v. 3.5. It casting time is one standard action, its duration is one round, and it affects the next ranged attack that you make using a bow, provided that you make it during your next turn. The spell's description makes it clear that you are expected to make your attack during your next turn – but it does not make clear that this is an exception to a general rule. (The general rule, as far as I know, is never explicitly stated anywhere.)

The Sticky Fingers spell appears on page 117 of the SPELL COMPENDIUM v. 3.5. Its casting time is one standard action, its duration is one round, and it bestows an unnamed +10 bonus on your Sleight of Hand checks. The description of this spell is less helpful than the description of the Hunter's Mercy spell. It is unclear whether this spell affects your actions during your next turn. Unfortunately, I don't know of many actions you can take using Sleight of Hand skill that you can take after you cast a standard-action spell but before your turn ends.

So there are two troublesome spells. What should we do about them?


Should we say that they should be written as the True Strike spell was written, so that they apply to the next standard action that you take, provided that it is made before your next turn ends?


Should we say that they should have a casting time of only one swift action, so that they affect the next standard action that you take before your current turn ends?


Or should we leave the descriptions and stat blocks of these two troublesome spells exactly as they are, but use the "fussy" method that I mentioned above? This would have the following consequences.


If you cast a one-round duration spell at the end of your turn – for example, because you have already taken a move action and then cast the spell as a standard action – then the spell lasts until the end of your next turn. This allows you to take a full-round action during your next turn before the spell ends.


If you cast a one-round duration spell in the middle of your turn – for example, because you cast the spell immediately after your turn begins, as a standard action, and then take a move action – then the spell lasts until the middle of your next turn. In the case of this example, since you took one standard action before the spell took effect, you can take one standard action at the start of your next turn before the spell's effect ends.


If you cast a one-round-duration spell at the beginning of your turn – which you can do only if you cast the spell as a swift or immediate action – then the spell lasts only until the beginning of your next turn.

Yora
2023-12-31, 07:25 PM
Found it. PHB, P153:

"Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."

Which really does lead to some strange situations. When you use your standard action to intimidate an enemy, you can't make any attack against him while he is shaken.
He's still shaken when he makes his attacks on his turn, and your allies benefit from his shaken state on their next turn. But that's not what you'd expect when you play a big scary brute.

Duke of Urrel
2023-12-31, 07:32 PM
Found it. PHB, P153:

"Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."

Which really does lead to some strange situations. When you use your standard action to intimidate an enemy, you can't make any attack against him while he is shaken.
He's still shaken when he makes his attacks on his turn, and your allies benefit from his shaken state on their next turn. But that's not what you'd expect when you play a big scary brute.

So there is a rule. Thanks for finding it!

This makes the Sticky Fingers spell a little dysfunctional unless we do some houseruling. It also has just the effect on Intimidate skill that you say it does.

Darg
2024-01-01, 04:11 PM
Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
For example, a monk acts on initiative count 15. The monk’s stunning attack stuns a creature for 1 round. The stun lasts through initiative count 16 in the next round, not until the end of the current round. On initiative count 15 in the next round, the stun effect has ended and the previously stunned creature can act.

Nothing funny happens and the effect does last through your turn. It's obviously badly worded, but the example should make it quite clear what is intended to happen.

ciopo
2024-01-01, 06:24 PM
what if you were to ready Sticky fingers / Hunter's Mercy? nominally it would still be active when your "normal turn" the next round comes, no?

that's one convoluted way to make use of them, I guess

Khedrac
2024-01-02, 03:16 AM
what if you were to ready Sticky fingers / Hunter's Mercy? nominally it would still be active when your "normal turn" the next round comes, no?

that's one convoluted way to make use of them, I guess

No, as the ready action changes your place in the initiative order.

Aquillion
2024-01-02, 03:54 AM
I would say that this is a case where RAI trumps RAW. For Hunter's Mercy, as you say, you can even reasonably argue that the text trumps the general rule and stretches the duration to the end of your next turn. You could even argue that the description doesn't care about the duration; the duration is weird but basically meaningless, since the text trumps it and just gives a bonus to an attack you make on your next turn regardless of the fact that the duration has expired by then.

Sticky Fingers is more complicated because there's no clear point where the text overrides the rules; it could in theory work as you mentioned per RAW, giving you advantages to whatever slight of hand checks you make before next turn (perhaps using Greater Celerity.) But that doesn't really make much sense - the spell is functionally useless by that reading, even if it's notionally possible to construct edge cases where it might do something - so the logical conclusion is that the writer forgot or didn't realize exactly when durations expire (reasonable, given that the people on this forum are mostly grognards and even we had to look it up) and that the spell should be presumed to last until the end of your next turn because that's the obvious intent.

ciopo
2024-01-02, 04:50 AM
No, as the ready action changes your place in the initiative order.

Oh poop, I forgot about that

Chronos
2024-01-02, 06:56 AM
Quoth Aquillion:

You could even argue that the description doesn't care about the duration; the duration is weird but basically meaningless, since the text trumps it and just gives a bonus to an attack you make on your next turn regardless of the fact that the duration has expired by then.
And there's precedent for spells continuing to have an effect after their duration ends, like the drift-down-to-the-ground of an expired Flight spell.

KillianHawkeye
2024-01-02, 10:23 AM
Honestly, I'd probably chalk these up to writers who forgot how the 1 round duration is supposed to work, and house rule them (and any spells like them) to work like True Strike, as that seems to be the intention.

Darg
2024-01-02, 10:38 AM
Is everyone just going to ignore the example the PHB gave right after the rule was given that I quoted earlier? It was pretty explicit that the duration lasts through your turn.

glass
2024-01-02, 01:29 PM
Is everyone just going to ignore the example the PHB gave right after the rule was given that I quoted earlier? It was pretty explicit that the duration lasts through your turn.Apart from the PSR, people are ignoring it because it contradicts itself. The first sentence is as you say, but the second goes back to matching the actual given rule of ending at the start of your turn. EDIT: Wait, no it doesn't.

Yora
2024-01-02, 01:56 PM
What contradiction?

Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
For example, a monk acts on initiative count 15. The monk’s stunning attack stuns a creature for 1 round. The stun lasts through initiative count 16 in the next round, not until the end of the current round. On initiative count 15 in the next round, the stun effect has ended and the previously stunned creature can act.

All three sentences are saying the same thing.

Duke of Urrel
2024-01-02, 02:18 PM
I think the passage from page 138 of the PLAYER'S HANDBOOK can be written a little more clearly.

Here is the original.

Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

For example, a monk acts on initiative count 15. The monk’s stunning attack stuns a creature for 1 round. The stun lasts through initiative count 16 in the next round, not until the end of the current round. On initiative count 15 in the next round, the stun effect has ended and the previously stunned creature can act.

Let's re-write it like this.

Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

For example, a monk acts on initiative count 15. The monk’s stunning attack stuns a creature for 1 round. The stun lasts not only through the end of the current round but all the way through initiative count 16 in the next round. On initiative count 15 in the next round, the stun effect has ended and the previously stunned creature can act.

The modified text is in boldface type.

This rewriting puts all events in chronological order. It does not make the stunning effect (or any other effect) last any longer, but it may dispel some confusion!

Remuko
2024-01-02, 03:48 PM
I think the passage from page 138 of the PLAYER'S HANDBOOK can be written a little more clearly.

Here is the original.


Let's re-write it like this.


The modified text is in boldface type.

This rewriting puts all events in chronological order. It does not make the stunning effect (or any other effect) last any longer, but it may dispel some confusion!

im not sure how that fixes it? maybe im confused but it still says that it lasts thru til initiative count 16 of the next round, and then the very next sentence says "on initiative count 15 the effect is over and the creature can act again". if it lasts til count 16 how can it be over on count 15?

icefractal
2024-01-02, 04:23 PM
Because initiative counts downward, so 16 is before 15.
Confused me too until I realized that.

glass
2024-01-02, 05:21 PM
What contradiction? All three sentences are saying the same thing.Apologies, you are correct. For some reason I was thinking 16 was after 15, but it isn't its before.

So the example does not contradict itself, but it also does not contradict the stated rule as Darg thought.

Remuko
2024-01-03, 03:40 AM
Because initiative counts downward, so 16 is before 15.
Confused me too until I realized that.

oh yeah wow, duh. this is why talking pure numbers in a vacuum can get confusing, id lost track of the context being initiative. yeah that makes sense then, statement retracted from my previous post, but leaving up the flub for posterity.

St Fan
2024-01-03, 09:42 AM
Yeah, the rule about the exact duration of the round can have some weird effects, and even cause some dysfunctions as stated above.
(Although it's thankfully rare; most spells lasting just one round or boosting one action have a swift action as casting time.)

A good example is the Reserves of Strength feat, which can stun you 1, 2 or 3 rounds when used to boost spell power.
However, since the stun is self-inflicted, that means a character using it for just a 1-round penalty will not lose any action over it (if the casting action is at the end of the current turn). She'll just be vulnerable until her next turn, at which point the stun effect dissipate and she can act normally.

Another corollary is that, spells with a duration of 1 round can get more powerful/versatile with just the application of the Extend Spell feat. (Unlike spells with a duration "till the end of next turn", which wouldn't be affected.)

For example, the mystic surge spell gives a boost to the next spell cast by the target, but because of its duration of 1 round and its casting time of a standard action, its normal use is for it to be cast by a different spellcaster. Apply Extend Spell to it, and a lone caster can use it on himself the next turn.
(Mind you, Quickened Spell applied to either spell would work too.)

bekeleven
2024-01-04, 03:03 PM
All right, we've discussed the issues that crop up if 1 round lasts "until my next round." What are the issues if it lasts through your round?

Darg
2024-01-04, 08:27 PM
All right, we've discussed the issues that crop up if 1 round lasts "until my next round." What are the issues if it lasts through your round?

It's been my default for years. At best it allows 1 more character to benefit. In the broad view of things it wouldn't really change anything from using the RAW.

Aquillion
2024-01-09, 01:19 PM
It'd be hard to go over every spell given how many there are, but there's at least a few spells out there premised on it working the way the rules say it does.

Spells like Blades of Fire, Swift Bless Weapon, and Critical Strike are swift-action spells that last one round and enhance your attack; the intent is clearly that they enhance one round's attacks, whereas changing how durations work would make them enhance two. Likewise, Blinding Breath and other breath-enhancing weapons would let you enhance multiple breath attacks instead of just one. And Swift Fly would effectively let you fly for two rounds instead of one, too.

A better fix would probably be to change the spells listed above to swift actions as well.

Asmotherion
2024-01-09, 01:23 PM
One round is 6 seconds. Each character acts during the same 6 seconds, and their actions resolve by the initiative order.

So, if you cast the spell, it lasts until you use your action on something else the next turn.