Practical Warding

[J-H]

Aside from Hallow and Guards & Wards, 5e doesn't have much. How do kings keep Shadows, Vampires, and enemy wizards out of their castle? Why can't a Pit Fiend just teleport its way to the Throne Room? What about rich families?

From a metagame perspective, how do rich families with Old Money and Old Houses keep any fool thief who can Misty Step or Dimension Door or who has 6 levels in Shadow Monk from just teleporting through their bedroom windows?

I'm working on something for a potential upcoming game and would like to see if anyone is already familiar with good ways this has been handled.

I have a feeling I'm going to end up with something like "Wards are anchored in stones buried in the building foundation and cover the building + X airspace around it, and are tuned to X, Y, Z." etc.

[Trask]

The Forbiddance spell does this I believe. And this clause makes it a semi permanent solution

If you cast forbiddance every day for 30 days in the same location, the spell lasts until it is dispelled, and the material components are consumed on the last casting.

A strict reading of the spells makes it such that you can't even misty step in the area.

[Psyren]

The spells available to PC adventurers are not the only magic that exists in a given setting. Things like Dimensional Lock no longer exist in the PHB but they can still be used by NPCs with sufficient resources.

[icedraikon]

Private Sanctum does something similar to the aforementioned Hallow and Forbiddance and Guards and Wards. 10m cast time, 1/day for a year gets you any or all of the following:

Sound can't pass through the barrier at the edge of the warded area.
The barrier of the warded area appears dark and foggy, preventing vision (including darkvision) through it.
Sensors created by divination spells can't appear inside the protected area or pass through the barrier at its perimeter.
Creatures in the area can't be targeted by divination spells.
Nothing can teleport into or out of the warded area.
Planar travel is blocked within the warded area.


So no planar travel, no teleportation, no divination, and no sitting by windows trying to hear what's being said inside.

[tKUUNK]

Nothing stopping you from creating something; as others said, the rules give DM leeway to add magic.

Maybe the nobles' home is protected by magic keyed to rings which allow entry into the home. Perhaps entry is simply impossible without wearing one of the rings. Or perhaps entering without a ring causes discomfort, pain, damage, sounds an alarm, and/or paralyzes the intruder.

Or maybe it's not a matter of warding.

Maybe rumor has it that the home is patrolled by someone (or something) so keen and terrible that nobody in their right mind would dare intrude by stealth or force. Maybe they hire their own shadow monks, wizards, and blink dogs as deterrent to intrusion.

Anywho, you're not limited by existing spells or D&D canon. Dream it!

[Catullus64]

Relatively simple magic solution to some examples mentioned: windows are under an illusory glamor that makes them appear in different locations from the outside. Line-of-sight-based teleporters like Misty Step and Shadow Step can enjoy face-planting into a wall before plummeting to the ground.

[Unoriginal]

Aside from Hallow and Guards & Wards, 5e doesn't have much. How do kings keep Shadows, Vampires, and enemy wizards out of their castle? Why can't a Pit Fiend just teleport its way to the Throne Room? What about rich families?

From a metagame perspective, how do rich families with Old Money and Old Houses keep any fool thief who can Misty Step or Dimension Door or who has 6 levels in Shadow Monk from just teleporting through their bedroom windows?

I'm working on something for a potential upcoming game and would like to see if anyone is already familiar with good ways this has been handled.

I have a feeling I'm going to end up with something like "Wards are anchored in stones buried in the building foundation and cover the building + X airspace around it, and are tuned to X, Y, Z." etc.

Keep in mind that for the large majority of situations, it's not that entering X is impossible, it's that entering X has consequences.

Breaking in Old Money's house is often as easy as wearing the right set of clothes, as servants don't usually get much attention if they keep a low profile and aren't near something that'd generate a fuss.

So someone who can teleport would naturally have an even easier time doing so.

Now the question is: can you avoid the world of hurt Old Money will unleash on you if you get noticed or caught? Because their means to track down anyone foolish enough to try far exceed their means to stop people from doing it.

Same reason why it's usually not that hard to steal in a shop, or open a door despite being locked, or hack into a computer if we go by the modern equivalent. The token defenses are here to discourage petty opportunists from trying their luck, but won't stand a chance against a determined professional.

[Mastikator]

Private sanctum can be made permanent, can block vision, sound, divination, planar travel and teleportation. It can make 100x100x5 feet defended per year. But it doesn't prevent anyone walking in. However it takes a 7th level wizard to do this, so a rich king might be able to pull it off for their castle but realistically I think we're doubling the price of the castle, and there's not a lot of 7th level wizards for hire (or rather, there shouldn't be for world building reasons).

To answer the question "Why can't a Pit Fiend just teleport its way to the Throne Room?": generally they should be able to do just that, and what does that world look like? Maybe one of the kingdoms is ruled by a pit fiend, maybe another kingdom is ruled by an ancient silver dragon. Is that an interesting or uninteresting setting to play in?

What does it benefit a pit fiend to take over/annihilate a kingdom? And does the pit fiend not answer to an archdevil? Does the pit fiend have to restrain themselves as to not attract intervention from a couple of planetars or a solar? Does the ancient dragon need to build fantastical defenses to protect their treasure from rival dragons? Does the dragon consider its population to be a part of its hoard?

I think if you want to have a fortress that is fortified specifically against magic and high CR individual monsters, you will need an archmage as the architect. The mere existence of such an archmage would have a huge impact on the setting (unless you're content to DM a forgotten realms clone where archmages grow on trees and do nothing).

Likewise if you have access to a high level cleric then you could cast forbiddance on an area, it would only take 30 days and 1000gp to make it extremely difficult for fiends and undead to be in that place, but still high CR monsters might have access to dispel magic so it's only a matter of time until they destroyed the magical defense.

The way I see it there are 4 options:

High CR monsters don't exist on the material plane.
High level NPCs (specifically wizards and clerics) exist that can prevent high CR monsters from taking over.
High CR monsters keep each other in check.
Some places are ruled by high CR monsters.


Edit-
You can also mix it up. Kingdom A is ruled by a pit fiend, but the pit fiend must restrain themselves due to threat of the upper planes. Kingdom B is ruled by a dragon, the dragon considers the kingdom to be its hoard and jealously guards every handful of soil and every citizen from harm. Kingdom C is protected by powerful magic by their wizard order. Kingdom D is protected by powerful magic by their temple. Kingdom E is under constant threat and the title of monarch often changes hands (and heads).

[JackPhoenix]

How do kings keep Shadows, Vampires, and enemy wizards out of their castle? Why can't a Pit Fiend just teleport its way to the Throne Room?
From a metagame perspective, how do rich families with Old Money and Old Houses keep any fool thief who can Misty Step or Dimension Door or who has 6 levels in Shadow Monk from just teleporting through their bedroom windows?


Shadows aren't particularly interested in going into the king's castle specifically, and aren't incorporeal. Simply close the door and make sure there aren't any holes, 1 inch is pretty big. Assuming you mean incorporeal undead instead, both Forbiddance and Hallow can keep those out.
All you have to do to stop vampires is to make sure nobody invites them in. After that, it's the same Forbiddance/Hallow that stops other undead.
It's hard to stop a determined wizard who did his homework, but wizards are still vulnerable to swords and arrows. Guards work well enough. You may add Glyph of Warding to further discourage intruders, but the issue is to set the trigger to exclude all the people who'll be there legitimaly. Also, Forbiddance/Hallow can stop teleportation.
A Pit Fiend can't just teleport its was to the throne room because it's stuck in Hells. Also, it can't teleport. And, again, Forbiddance/Hallow.
Misty Step requires you to see where you're going and has 30' range. That's easy enough to prevent. Shadow monks are rare enough to be basically non-factor. Also, guards.
Dimension Door is harder to prevent, but it's a 4th level spell... those aren't exactly common. A spellcaster of that level has other options, too. As mentioned by Unoriginal, a determined attacker with sufficient resources WILL find a way in no matter what you do. No security measure is perfect. But there should be consequences. That's why we keep all those adventurers around, after all.

[Slipjig]

Yes, teleportation abilities being available at low-level is one of the things that quickly breaks world-building if you think about it too hard.

Misty Step is actually pretty limited for breaking-and-entering, though. 30' just isn't that far, especially if you can only cast it once. It'll get you through a shop window at street level, but if it's a common ability, building in 35' of standoff would be pretty simple to accomplish in any building that is supposed to be secure.

Once we're talking T2 abilities, I think the important question is "how common are T2+ characters in this setting"? If they are relatively rare, then most places aren't going to be protected against them. Which is appropriate: if your character is an unusually badass Ninja, they SHOULD be able to break into most spaces pretty easily. For most people, their defense is that they don't have anything that would be worth the time of a T2 character. For anybody who DOES need to defend against T2 characters, the security measures vary. If scrying is common, it would make sense that some sort of defense against scrying would have been developed. To prevent access by Shadow Monks, have at least 65' of standoff brightly lit at all times. For anybody worth the attention of a T2 assassin, putting a Continual Flame (or even just an ordinary torch) every 40' is probably a trivial expense.

As for the Pit Fiend... their stat block doesn't include teleportation or plane shift abilities? But given that these guys are CR 20 and are generally Dukes of the Hells, any villain who can enlist one as an assassin probably SHOULD be a credible threat to all but the most magically powerful kingdoms. Though I would imagine the Chief of Royal Security would insist on keeping the ruler and his heirs in at least three different locations, keeping most of the Royal Family's schedule secret, and having the Royal Body Double fill in for the King at most public functions.

But we should probably also assume that any King that has CR 20+ enemies probably also has access to high-level casters of his own, so even if an assassin DOES get through, they only need a 9th Level Cleric to cast Raise Dead.

[J-H]

I must have been thinking of Balors or Nalfeshees. I know some of the CR10+ fiends have basically at-will 120' teleport.

if you tend to play in my PBP games please don't read this.

The context on this is that I'm putting together the tools to run a "Take the City" game where 3-4 players get to play full-on vampires with some class levels. They don't have vampire HD/hit points, but a team of 7th or 9th level characters with +2-+4 to all stats, vampire regeneration (even if only 5-10hp/rd), and access to, across the team, spider climb, charm, bat polymorph, etc., is pretty hard to keep out.

Their job will be to secure a hideout and then destabilize a city so that either its government collapses, or so that it's so unstable that it remains neutral as their boss invades someplace nearby... the exact goal is TBD, but they'll have to kill, kidnap, or subvert a good chunk of the city's leadership: 6-12 noble families, a ruler, the city watch/guard, the wizard school, and several temples.

I don't want them to be able to repeatedly go "We charm the guard into opening the door and inviting us in, then run rampant through the house at night."

There will definitely be some complexities involved, including earning Heat by their actions, having to drain someone dry at least once a week (body count adds up!), etc.... but one of those is making some facilities secure against them just flying or walking in. Thus, my interest in "how have you seen wards done successfully?"

At some point they'll have the temples and adventurers coming after them... if their hideout gets blown apart in the daytime they're screwed. 20th level paladins may get involved if they earn enough heat that the temples call for help.

[Slipjig]

That sounds like a really fun idea for a campaign.
If a SWAT team of level 20 Paladins is in the mix, I would suggest that the PC's first priority needs to be maintaining their anonymity. If the authorities realize they are dealing with a group of vampires, it's likely all over (or, at best, their effectiveness will be severely curtailed, as houses around the city start taking countermeasures). Vamps are extremely powerful at night and against the unprepared, but have weaknesses that are easily-exploited by even low-level hunters.

Maybe have their boss assign a physically weak mentor/consigliere figure to them? Maybe the talking skull of a former master spy? He could STRONGLY suggest that:

1) they should avoid leaving evidence that there are vamps in the city (because that would attract Hunters, even if they don't realize the vamps are foreign political agents),

2) they should avoid creating a pattern to their crimes that would suggest it's the same group doing all of them (i.e. they need to mix-up their MO, because the City Guard (or Hunters) will assume that any crimes committed with the same MO are the work of a single group), and

3) they should create alternative "theories of the crime" to cover their tracks. For example, they COULD just murder a meddlesome City Watch investigator, but his death will lead to questions.
However, what if the case notes found in his office afterward indicate that he was investigating embezzlement by the Mage Guild's Bursar (who is also on their target list)? And if they can plant the murder weapon in the Bursar's office, nobody will ask any more questions after the Bursar is arrested.

Basically, any time they commit a crime, they should either make it look like an accident or have a patsy lined up.

[J-H]

Oh, that's up to THEM to figure out. There will be escalating "hunting" parties if they make their presence obvious... plus things like Hallow being deployed.

There will also be internal tension:

Vampires, being undead, do not level up as quickly as living beings. They only grow in power when they are conducting activities that align with their particular abilities and desires. These are arranged in Behavior Groups by class. Some classes may qualify for multiple groups; characters with those classes must select which Group they intend to follow at character creation.

When assessing how a particular heist, mission, or operation went, determine which behavior group it fits in the most. Only the vampire from that group gets a point towards leveling up. Three points are required to level up.
Each player character should be from a different behavior group.

Blood & Mayhem
Barbarian
Fighter
Monk
Paladin
Ranger (choose at character creation)
Rogue (choose at character creation)

Stealth, Skill, & Information
Bard (choose at character creation)
Artificer
Ranger (choose at character creation)
Rogue (choose at character creation)
Wizard (choose at character creation)
Warlock (choose at character creation)

Magic & Domination
Bard (choose at character creation)
Cleric
Druid
Sorcerer
Wizard (choose at character creation)
Warlock (choose at character creation)

So if they go the "all subtlety" route the barbarian never levels up. If they go all "leave no survivors" then the bard doesn't level up... etc. I like it as an incentive to mix things up and not do things the same way every time.

[Slipjig]

Cool! If there's a campaign journal for this, I'd read it! Unless your players read a lot of spy fiction, I still think the consigliere is a good idea. Most people never think about "footprint".

[Bobthewizard]

If you are specifically trying to keep a pit fiend out, glyph of warding is a much more subtle way to do it than guards and wards. Use the spell glyph version and you can put all sorts of varied hazards that trigger when "a fiend enters the area" You'll need a lot of them since it only covers a 10' radius.

[JackPhoenix]

You'll need a lot of them since it only covers a 10' radius.

Sort of. The glyph itself can take up to 10' area, but there's no reason to do that and plenty of reasons NOT to do that (you can't even use a big glyph as a warning sign, as it's inherently hard to detect), the effect is unrelated to its size... the explosive glyph produces 20' radius blast, and the spell glyph version naturally uses the spell's range. The trigger isn't limited to 10' either.

[Slipjig]

And I just realized something that prevents Misty Step with 100% effectiveness: drawn curtains.

I'm now imagining that every household in the Realms has a superstition about drawing their curtains every night to keep out the fey... and most people not realizing it's a real thing.

[Silly Name]

The easiest answer is indeed "high-CR threats aren't so common that your average duke or count is going to worry over warding their castle from them". The other part of the answer is that high-CR, evil-minded threats are - at least theoretically - kept in check by high-CR, good-aligned creatures.

High CR fiends teleports to the Material Plane to take over a kingdom? Solars and Planetars descend from the heavens to kick the Balor's butt. And this is why divine beings and powerful outsiders prefer to conduct their business on the Prime through servants. I even make this an explicit rule of all my settings: extraplanars entering the Prime Material of their own volition basically give permission to an equal and opposite extraplanar force to intefere, and particularly powerful extraplanar beings are effectively bound to their realm of residence.

Also, Plane Shift isn't precise enough to allow popping in the throne room and assassinate kings anyways:


You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells, and you appear in or near that destination. If you are trying to reach the City of Brass, for example, you might arrive in its Street of Steel, before its Gate of Ashes, or looking at the city from across the Sea of Fire, at the DM's discretion.

Most undead are somewhat mindless or beastial: Shadows don't take over cities and villages because they are far away from their lairs. If a shadow spawns or is created within a settlement, it's going to be enough trouble for adventurers to take notice and intervene before it's too late... Or maybe the once-bustling city of Emor is now a dreary haunt of thousands of shadows.

You gotta worry about vampires and liches, but those should be few and far-between. There are probably a few duchies ruled by an immortal undead monarch around the world, though.

Hallow is likely cast on most churches, temples and important buildings as part of religious ceremonies, so you can expect big churches and castle to be hallowed, at least the very important places such as council rooms and thronerooms. Private Sanctum is another option, even more convenient than Hallow,and Since it's a 4th-level spell, it's reasonably availabe to anyone who should have to worry about being targeted by powerful casters and extraplanar beings.