3.5 stacking of the same bonus - clarification needed

[Nikker]

Hello everyone, these days I've been building a sacred fist and I was pondering about speed bonuses and whether they stack or not.
I've been reading this thread https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?239727-3-5-3-P-Fastest-Possible-Land-Speed and this thread https://www.enworld.org/threads/sacred-fist-monk-movement-bonus-stack.95615/ and others that I don't have at hand right now, I see the general consensus that "enhancement bonus doesn't stack with enhancement bonus" but there is something that doesn't ring just right.

The SRD says:


Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm

If the rules specifically calls out only modifiers to checks and rolls, why is there consensus that these rules apply to speed too? Speed is no check. It requires no roll.

Is there some rule I'm missing out?

Thank you

[Forrestfire]

While that reading is technically true, the bonuses themselves also have their own individual rules for stacking.

Per page 308 of the Player's Handbook:

enhancement bonus: A bonus that represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor’s bonus to AC, they don’t apply against touch attacks.

[Nikker]

While that reading is technically true, the bonuses themselves also have their own individual rules for stacking.

True, but I have to point out that the very text that you quoted still doesn't address speed



enhancement bonus: A bonus that represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor’s bonus to AC, they don’t apply against touch attacks.

It mentions that the rule applies to creatures in regards of Natural Armor, or ability scores. The generic text about stacking mentions "Rolls and checks", so I include skill checks too, but nothing here nor there mentions speed.

[glass]

True, but I have to point out that the very text that you quoted still doesn't address speedI believe that was her point - you either accept that the bonus rules can apply to thing other than rolls (in case they all apply), or you don't in which case enhancement bonuses to speed do nothing at all.

[Nikker]

I believe that was her point - you either accept that the bonus rules can apply to thing other than rolls (in case they all apply), or you don't in which case enhancement bonuses to speed do nothing at all.

Why do you think enhancement bonus to speed does nothing at all? Just because speed isn't listed in what enhancement bonuses do?
I say, if anything, any enhancement bonus to speed is a case of "specific trumps generic", as the specific rules in class features or spells that grant enhancement bonus to speed do state that a bonus to speed is given.

[aglondier]

You could say "but they didn't specifically say *whatever it is* can't be stacked in the books" until the cows come home. Fact is, they could have, but the books would have been quadruple their current size and unreadable.
You know the answer already, it's "no". Enhancement bonuses don't stack, whether it's attributes, initiative, speed or even fluffiness factor. You're just trying to argue a way around it and seeking validation from someone online.

If you can't accept the truth of this statement, then you should probably be talking to your DM about it, the DMs word is final and s/he can make any call they want to, including saying "yes".

[Darg]

Why do you think enhancement bonus to speed does nothing at all? Just because speed isn't listed in what enhancement bonuses do?
I say, if anything, any enhancement bonus to speed is a case of "specific trumps generic", as the specific rules in class features or spells that grant enhancement bonus to speed do state that a bonus to speed is given.

Well, look at it this way. When 3e came out a monk's speed bonus was typeless. When the 3.5 update came out, they went out of their way to turn it into an enhancement bonus. If not explicitly said, the intent of the change is extremely obvious when put into context.

[glass]

Why do you think enhancement bonus to speed does nothing at all? Just because speed isn't listed in what enhancement bonuses do?I don't. I think enhancement bonuses to speed work like enhancement bonuses to anything else.

You were the one who was trying to ignore (some of) the bonus rules. I was simply pointing out that if assert that the given rules do not apply, then there is no rule allowing you to add them to your speed at all.

[Nikker]

You could say "but they didn't specifically say *whatever it is* can't be stacked in the books" until the cows come home. Fact is, they could have, but the books would have been quadruple their current size and unreadable.
You know the answer already, it's "no". Enhancement bonuses don't stack, whether it's attributes, initiative, speed or even fluffiness factor. You're just trying to argue a way around it and seeking validation from someone online.

If you can't accept the truth of this statement, then you should probably be talking to your DM about it, the DMs word is final and s/he can make any call they want to, including saying "yes".

I'm not particularly interested in proving a point, and I'm not asking this for a character I want to play so there's no DM to ask to.
I'm trying to figure out if this stacking or not stacking of speed bonuses was addressed in the rules somewhere. Maybe not in basic rules but in some clarification? Some manual or article? Something that's more solid than "game designers forgot to mention it but everything else works like this so everyone takes it to work like this too".

[Nikker]

Well, look at it this way. When 3e came out a monk's speed bonus was typeless. When the 3.5 update came out, they went out of their way to turn it into an enhancement bonus. If not explicitly said, the intent of the change is extremely obvious when put into context.

This leads to the nonsense situation where the monk enhancement bonus to speed doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus to speed granted by a prc designed for monks (sacred fist)... please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

[Nikker]

I don't. I think enhancement bonuses to speed work like enhancement bonuses to anything else.

You were the one who was trying to ignore (some of) the bonus rules. I was simply pointing out that if assert that the given rules do not apply, then there is no rule allowing you to add them to your speed at all.

I'm not trying to ignore the bonus rules. I'm saying that the rules, in the first place, don't speak about enhancement bonus to speed.
You're correct in pointing out that, reading the "Modifiers" section of "The basics" (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm which should be the same text as PH), it looks like enhancement bonus to speed doesn't even exist. But these are the general rules, and if enhancement bonus to speed is stated elsewhere to exist, it's specific that trumps generic... unless the generic rules about modifiers and stacking have been updated elsewhere? Is there something in Rules Compendium or in some official answer?

[tyckspoon]

This leads to the nonsense situation where the monk enhancement bonus to speed doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus to speed granted by a prc designed for monks (sacred fist)... please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

It doesn't. You can get into Sacred Fist with one or none levels of monk (although a level in Monk is by far the fastest way to acquire Improved Unarmed Strike + Stunning Fist for its prereqs) in which case you will not have any movement bonus from Monk. Most of Sacred Fist's bonuses aren't meant to -improve- what you get from Monk, they're meant to -replace- it because you are taking Sacred Fist levels instead of Monk. From that perspective, it makes perfect sense that the two bonuses don't stack.

[Nikker]

It doesn't. You can get into Sacred Fist with one or none levels of monk (although a level in Monk is by far the fastest way to acquire Improved Unarmed Strike + Stunning Fist for its prereqs) in which case you will not have any movement bonus from Monk. Most of Sacred Fist's bonuses aren't meant to -improve- what you get from Monk, they're meant to -replace- it because you are taking Sacred Fist levels instead of Monk. From that perspective, it makes perfect sense that the two bonuses don't stack.

I don't know what you mean by "most of sacred fist bonuses" as, for example, unarmed damage is stated to stack with monk's, and the AC bonus of the sacred fist is untyped so it would stack with monk's. The only other thing the two classes have in common is speed, and it's the only one that wouldn't stack unless we take RAW for RAW and bonuses to speed do stack because they're not stated not to stack. In this interpretation, 3 out of 3 things that Monk and SF have in common would stack, instead of 2 out of 3.

[JNAProductions]

Sure-but “One PrC doesn’t stack well,” is not a compelling argument to overwrite core rules assumptions about stacking bonuses.

There’s a LOT of shoddy editing in 3.5.

[Beni-Kujaku]

If you absolutely need something written that adresses any kind of situation‚ then read Rules Compendium :
"Bonuses of different types always stack. Bonuses that have
identical types don’t stack, except for dodge bonuses and
some circumstance bonuses. Untyped bonuses stack unless
the bonuses come from the same effect.
Penalties aren’t usually typed, but identical types of
penalties don’t stack. In this latter case, the worst penalty
applies."

Happy ?

[Nikker]

If you absolutely need something written that adresses any kind of situation‚ then read Rules Compendium :
"Bonuses of different types always stack. Bonuses that have
identical types don’t stack, except for dodge bonuses and
some circumstance bonuses. Untyped bonuses stack unless
the bonuses come from the same effect.
Penalties aren’t usually typed, but identical types of
penalties don’t stack. In this latter case, the worst penalty
applies."

Happy ?

Yes, since they amended the premise, from "modifiers to a given check or roll stack if they etc etc" (PHB) to a plainer "bonuses that have identical types don't stack" (RC) I'm satisfied, as they clarified it. Thank you for finding the text.

[bekeleven]

I have a question about "the same source."

Let's say I use the DMG "Adding New Abilities" rules to add the effects of something with an untyped benefit - let's say a Ring of Wizardry I - to my boots. Now I have a pair of Boots of Striding and Springing and Wizardry.

Then I put one Ring of Wizardry I on each hand.

How does this change my spells per day?

[Max Caysey]

Sure-but “One PrC doesn’t stack well,” is not a compelling argument to overwrite core rules assumptions about stacking bonuses.

There’s a LOT of shoddy editing in 3.5.

This right here is the correct answer!

[Jay R]

I have a question about "the same source."

Let's say I use the DMG "Adding New Abilities" rules to add the effects of something with an untyped benefit - let's say a Ring of Wizardry I - to my boots. Now I have a pair of Boots of Striding and Springing and Wizardry.

Then I put one Ring of Wizardry I on each hand.

How does this change my spells per day?

When you are doing something weird and not expressly covered by the rules, then the DM must make a ruling.

If somebody asked about it in my game, I would apply this rule: "The wearer’s arcane spells per day are doubled for one specific spell level." I would say that your first level spells per day are doubled -- you have twice as many as you have with no ring. There are three different reasons why they are doubled, but they are still merely doubled, not octupled. The only benefit from wearing three of them is that the spells per day are still doubled even if two of those three are taken away from you. These extra spells are not described as "bonuses" or "modifiers", so the rules about bonuses and modifiers don't apply.

A different DM might rule differently. And there's nothing wrong with that.

The fact that there is no clear rule doesn't mean the player can decide. It means that the DM must decide.

[Darg]

I don't know what you mean by "most of sacred fist bonuses" as, for example, unarmed damage is stated to stack with monk's, and the AC bonus of the sacred fist is untyped so it would stack with monk's. The only other thing the two classes have in common is speed, and it's the only one that wouldn't stack unless we take RAW for RAW and bonuses to speed do stack because they're not stated not to stack. In this interpretation, 3 out of 3 things that Monk and SF have in common would stack, instead of 2 out of 3.

A sacred fist's speed bonus works in light armor, a monk's does not. they are fundamentally different. Likely the unarmed damage stacks because otherwise they would have to adjudicate how it interacts with each other which would use more text. You can qualify for sacred fist as a pure cleric at level 6 after all. So it isn't necessary for them to stack.

[nackers]

Not directly related to the question asked but where can I find the rule about bonus's not stacking. I have a player wanting to cast spell turning and use a reflective shield which has spell turning as crafting requirement.

Thanks

[Menzath]

Not directly related to the question asked but where can I find the rule about bonus's not stacking. I have a player wanting to cast spell turning and use a reflective shield which has spell turning as crafting requirement.

Thanks

Phb pg 171-172, under section combing magical effects.
Rules compendium pg 21, bonuses.

Edit: although since it does involve a magic items, rules compendium has a larger section on that from pg 82-87 which references stacking magic effects on rules compendium pg 137.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Closed for Necromancy.