Disintegrate (Urban druid) vs Golems (magic immunity)

[Yogibear41]

Is there any way to make Disintegrate ignore the pesky magic immunity of golems? (Specifically on an Urban druid if able)

[icefractal]

Dweomerkeeper (at least four levels) would do it, but it wouldn't be an easy entry from Druid - you need the ability to cast arcane spells and the Magic domain. It's full progression and definitely worth taking power-wise, but it is a non-trivial detour.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you can somehow make disintegrate count as an "innate spell-like ability," or you convince your DM that it is such, the Supernatural Transformation feat would turn it into a [Su], which ignores SR (and thus magic immunity). Perhaps a level in heirophant to turn disintegrate into a [Sp]? It can only be used 2/day, though, unless you sacrifice a higher level spell slot, and it also costs a caster level (and 13 levels of druid) just to dip into the class, plus a feat for Supernatural Transformation. And it might not even work.

You might just be better off taking Aberration Wild Shape and Assume Supernatural Ability, and turning into a beholder, and using its eye rays. Are there any ways to grant wild shape to an urban druid? Maybe some LA for the divine minion template? Or would Urban Shape work for that?

[ShurikVch]

Which Golems you want to affect?
Some are already vulnerable to Disintegrate - like Clay Golem
Some could be stripped of their Magic Immunity - like Stone Golem and Stone to Flesh spell
Some are lacking Magic Immunity altogether - like Wax Golem (https://web.archive.org/web/20151106175822/http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/ch/ch20001218b)
And some are couldn't be affected by magical disintegration no matter what (even via Supernatural Spell and such) - like Adamantine Golem

[Thunder999]

Scroll of Shapechange and turn into something like a Beholder with Supernatural disintegrate, expensive, but much easier than qualifying for and gaining 4 levels in Dweomerkeeper.

[Saintheart]

I notice you're an Urban Druid and therefore I presume are adventuring in an urban environment. If so, there's a RAW workaround if you have the feat City Magic (Cityscape) and hit the golems with a Call Lightning Storm (Urban Druid 5) rather than Disintegrate. City Magic changes the damage of the spell to half "city damage", which is explicitly not subject to immunities or resistances. Bonus points if it's an iron golem, it gets slowed for a few rounds too (and comparatively, don't use on a Flesh Golem since that actually results in net 0 damage for similar reasons.)

If it absolutely has to be Disintegrate, a similar gambit is taking Snowcasting (Frostburn) and then City Magic. The Disintegrate spell gains a [cold] descriptor which qualifies it for City Magic.

That said, the argument is then whether the golem's immunity outright to spells trumps this. By RAW I think there is a strong argument City Magic's wording overrides that of golem's statblock, especially since the statblock describes when a golem is hit with "a magical attack". of certain energy types.

Also, it does depend on the golem type. If it's a Stone Golem, a Stone to Flesh (Urban Druid 6) outright removes its magic immunity, making it vulnerable to Disintegrate.

[JNAProductions]

I notice you're an Urban Druid and therefore I presume are adventuring in an urban environment. If so, there's a RAW workaround if you have the feat City Magic (Cityscape) and hit the golems with a Call Lightning Storm (Urban Druid 5) rather than Disintegrate. City Magic changes the damage of the spell to half "city damage", which is explicitly not subject to immunities or resistances. Bonus points if it's an iron golem, it gets slowed for a few rounds too (and comparatively, don't use on a Flesh Golem since that actually results in net 0 damage for similar reasons.)

If it absolutely has to be Disintegrate, a similar gambit is taking Snowcasting (Frostburn) and then City Magic. The Disintegrate spell gains a [cold] descriptor which qualifies it for City Magic.

That said, the argument is then whether the golem's immunity outright to spells trumps this. By RAW I think there is a strong argument City Magic's wording overrides that of golem's statblock.

Also, it does depend on the golem type. If it's a Stone Golem, a Stone to Flesh (Urban Druid 6) outright removes its magic immunity, making it vulnerable to Disintegrate.

The city damage isn't subject to resistances or immunity.
It doesn't make a SR: Yes spell suddenly ignore Spell Resistance.

[Saintheart]

The city damage isn't subject to resistances or immunity.
It doesn't make a SR: Yes spell suddenly ignore Spell Resistance.

Hence why I said there's an argument about whether the golem's immunity overrides City Magic.

And as I said, I think there's a RAW argument that it doesn't, given City Magic was written with presumably full awareness that there are such things as golem magic immunity.

Spell Resistance is not the same as sitting in the middle of an antimagic field. To the contrary, the golem statblocks go on to describe all sorts of weird and wonderful things that happen when they're hit with "a magical attack" that involves a given energy subtype. By RAW I think there is a simple case to be made that City Magic was intended to get around those immunities.

EDIT: And even then, if it wasn't an Urban Druid we were dealing with we'd still have options: Fire Seeds (Druid 6) delivers 1d6 per CL and has no Spell Resistance, so would be valid for City Magic'd it'd cut through the golem's immunities (depending on which golem is involved).

[JNAProductions]

Hence why I said there's an argument about whether the golem's immunity overrides City Magic.

And as I said, I think there's a RAW argument that it doesn't, given City Magic was written with presumably full awareness that there are such things as golem magic immunity.

Spell Resistance is not the same as sitting in the middle of an antimagic field. To the contrary, the golem statblocks go on to describe all sorts of weird and wonderful things that happen when they're hit with "a magical attack" that involves a given energy subtype. By RAW I think there is a simple case to be made that City Magic was intended to get around those immunities.

Golem's Immunity To Magic is (for most spells) blanket immunity to SR: Yes spells and abilities.
It does not interact with damage types, unless specifically stated otherwise.
On the SRD Page for Golems (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm), there's no mention of city damage, so it wouldn't interact with them.

You say there's a RAW argument to be made-quote the rules that show a City Magic spell ignores Spell Resistance.

[Saintheart]

Golem's Immunity To Magic is (for most spells) blanket immunity to SR: Yes spells and abilities.
It does not interact with damage types, unless specifically stated otherwise.
On the SRD Page for Golems (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm), there's no mention of city damage, so it wouldn't interact with them.

You say there's a RAW argument to be made-quote the rules that show a City Magic spell ignores Spell Resistance.

Let's use Call Lightning as the discussion point, since it or Call Lightning Storm are the ways City Magic operates with an Urban Druid and with a golem as the target. I take it we can agree from a quick reading of the spell entries that these spells do not have targets but do create effects.


SRD: (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellImmunity)
When Spell Resistance Applies
Each spell includes an entry that indicates whether spell resistance applies to the spell. In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does:
...
Effect Spells
Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web.

Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that’s already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell.

Check spell resistance only once for any particular casting of a spell or use of a spell-like ability. If spell resistance fails the first time, it fails each time the creature encounters that same casting of the spell. Likewise, if the spell resistance succeeds the first time, it always succeeds. If the creature has voluntarily lowered its spell resistance and is then subjected to a spell, the creature still has a single chance to resist that spell later, when its spell resistance is up.

Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Creatures can be harmed by a spell without being directly affected.

I think we can agree Call Lightning only affects the golem when it's first hit by a bolt the spell creates, and that the golem's magic immunity is bound by the conditions Spell Resistance operates upon, i.e. its immunity is only checked when it gets hit by the first bolt.

Spell resistance - and therefore spell immunity - is also immaterial unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature's mind or body. And by the point that happens, it's not only magical electricity that the creature is being affected by. It's being affected by magical 'city' damage, to which City Magic says there is no resistance or immunity. (EDIT: Specifically, City Magic says this 'city' damage is not subject to resistances 'or immunities'.)

As I said: it is a RAW argument.

[JNAProductions]

It's relying on Resistance and Immunity (in the context of damage types) being the same as Spell Resistance and Immunity To Magic.

So I would not expect this to pass muster for an actual DM.

[NotInventedHere]

It's relying on Resistance and Immunity (in the context of damage types) being the same as Spell Resistance and Immunity To Magic.

So I would not expect this to pass muster for an actual DM.

I looked this up in Cityscape, and the City Magic feat has this sentence:



The remainder comes from the city itself, and is
not subject to spell or energy resistances or immunities.

(Emphasis added.)

So it does specify that spell resistance, as well as resistance to specific damage types, is inapplicable. Or possibly it specifies that spell resistances or immunities are bypassed; the grammar is slightly ambiguous when mixing 'or' clauses like that, as to whether it's "( (spell or energy) resistances ) or immunities" or "(spell or energy) (resistances or immunities)". Either way, though, spell resistance is definitely included, and therefore the golem's immunity is bypassed.