Undestroyable -20 gp coin

[crabwizard77]

Imagine you had a coin worth -20 gp. It is impossible to destroy, and the only way you can get rid of it is to use it in a transaction (Which means the transaction costs an extra 20 gp). You may have as many as you want. What would you do with it?

[kazaryu]

Imagine you had a coin worth -20 gp. It is impossible to destroy, and the only way you can get rid of it is to use it in a transaction (Which means the transaction costs an extra 20 gp). You may have as many as you want. What would you do with it?

wait...are you saying that the worth of the gold coin isn't included in your payment? so like...i couldn't use 3 20gp gold coins to buy a health potion? i'd need to pay 50gp and just add in the extra 20gp as like...a tip?

[JNAProductions]

The coin is worth negative twenty GP.

And... I dunno, make armor out of it. It's indestructible, so it should be pretty quality armor.

[KorvinStarmast]

Suggestion: make it into a codpiece for a pixie or a sprite.

Conceptually: this appears to be some kind of cursed item, but your value is off by an order of magnitude or two.

Even bits of scrap metal - tin, copper, bronze, brass - have a trade value of a positive amount, however small, and since you posit this as gold it is inherently worth at least some coppers or some silvers.

So what's the curse, and how does it work?

[kazaryu]

The coin is worth negative twenty GP.

And... I dunno, make armor out of it. It's indestructible, so it should be pretty quality armor.

ohhhh, that just makes so much more sense. ok.

for the OP, in that case...whats my motivation for getting rid of it? is there any reason i'd want to get rid of it? seems like an interesting novelty piece.

[J-H]

It's worth more in a more sophisticated society. If you get a bunch of them, you can use them for tax fraud purposes by lowering your net wealth (as verified by divination to be accurate), and I'm sure there's a way to use them for money laundering as well.

[Snowbluff]

The coin is worth negative twenty GP.

And... I dunno, make armor out of it. It's indestructible, so it should be pretty quality armor.

If you attach a bunch of them you could make a set of full plate be cheaper, right? :smalltongue:

[Silly Name]

Very dumb idea: You have a reserve of indestructible targets for Animate Objects, so they don't get destroyed.

[JackPhoenix]

Very dumb idea: You have a reserve of indestructible targets for Animate Objects, so they don't get destroyed.

Animate Objects works on nonmagical objects only. The coin is clearly magical.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

The coin is worth negative twenty GP.

And... I dunno, make armor out of it. It's indestructible, so it should be pretty quality armor.

Coin of Inflation


Legendary Item (Cursed)

If you have this coin on your person, you must pay 20 gp extra anytime you buy an item. You will always use this coin last, and it can't be removed from your person any other way (it teleports back to you).

This coin is indestructible and any attempts to modify it causes you to lose 20 gp (per attempt).

[Mastikator]

So it's basically a magical debt token? And I can just have as many as I want? Okay so I want to have as close to net zero gold as possible at all times. Can I get them extra cursed? Like if someone steals from me they must also steal some of these -20gp gold coins.

[OldTrees1]

Is my character allowed to fill up a large body of water with these coins? Make the sea level rise with a indestructible mountain of coins?

Edit:
Oh, and since these coins are useful but can't be sold efficiently, they would gift the coins (including the required gold) to those that gave them gifts. Use the asynchronous nature of a gift or favor economy to resolve the curse.

[gatorized]

The conceit of objects having objective value is almost as dumb as alignment. A thing is worth whatever a person is willing to pay to obtain it.

As for the coin - when someone owes you money, you give them the coin to settle their debt.

[Derges]

Imagine you had a coin worth -20 gp. It is impossible to destroy, and the only way you can get rid of it is to use it in a transaction (Which means the transaction costs an extra 20 gp). You may have as many as you want. What would you do with it?

Use it in a Dwarven Autovend(tm) machine? It's the same size and shape as a "real" 20gp coin, right? So I can trick the machine into vending crowbars to go and apply "leverage" to the machine and extract all the coins and goods.

[EggKookoo]

The conceit of objects having objective value is almost as dumb as alignment. A thing is worth whatever a person is willing to pay to obtain it.

Yeah, I'm not sure how this is expected to work. If you buy something for, say, 100gp, and you add in your -20gp coin in an attempt to get rid of it, how does the seller know to charge you an extra 20gp? If the seller isn't going to willingly take your cursed coin, and if the seller doesn't realize it's a cursed coin, why does the price change? Does the coin charm the seller into asking for an exta 20gp?

[No brains]

If this coin has the trait of being all of these things: gold, indestructible, and possibly antimatter- there's probably some way to use it to kill a bunch of catgirls. Tabaxi watch out.

If I were a DM, I would use these to fill the hoard of an insane dragon. If the PCs tried to loot a bed of these big enough for an elephant to sleep on, then GP would REALLY be useless in 5e!

As a PC, I would gladly take one of these on credit from a god so that I can cast Divination for free and then think of a sacrifice later.

One could glue a bunch of these together and clamp two domes of them around a Sphere of Annihilation to nullify it.

I can imagine that if someone tries to indestructible negative gold to cast Arcane Lock instead of the typical gold powder, the spell comes out as Knock.

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, I'm not sure how this is expected to work

Magic. It works by magic. It magically imposes the perception that the coin is worth -20gp on any being who attempts to engage in a transaction with it, and magically returns to the last person who accepted it in a transaction if it leaves them without passing through another one (so it can't be lost, stolen, or disposed of in any other way than being bought).

[Batcathat]

It might be fun (in a somewhat horrifying fashion) to try and figure out how to apply the curse to an enemy, so everyone would literally consider them worse than worthless. :smallamused:

[Analytica]

It reduces the value of anything that it is embedded with. So if this exists, could I wish for something normally worth 75k with 250 of these bolted on, so its net worth still is 25k?

[EggKookoo]

Magic. It works by magic. It magically imposes the perception that the coin is worth -20gp on any being who attempts to engage in a transaction with it, and magically returns to the last person who accepted it in a transaction if it leaves them without passing through another one (so it can't be lost, stolen, or disposed of in any other way than being bought).

Okay, so it effectively mind-whammies the seller into tacking on an additional 20gp to the cost.

I'm curious what would happen if I offered it up as a prize for something. If you think that's not a transaction, I think any casino (and the IRS) would like to have a talk.

[Mastikator]

The conceit of objects having objective value is almost as dumb as alignment. A thing is worth whatever a person is willing to pay to obtain it.

As for the coin - when someone owes you money, you give them the coin to settle their debt.

From a historical perspective that's not entirely true. Guilds have set fixed prices on items. All daggers are worth 2gp and weigh 1lbs, and are all virtually identical because the smithing guild says so. And anyone who buys or sells outside the guild's framework can forget about ever obtaining metals or forged items ever again. A smith who sells horseshoes for a price that is not what the guild says might be out of a job. "It's worth what I'm willing to sell it for" isn't the ironclad defense the ironsmith thinks it is.
This sort of thing wasn't even a rarity.

[Batcathat]

From a historical perspective that's not entirely true. Guilds have set fixed prices on items. All daggers are worth 2gp and weigh 1lbs, and are all virtually identical because the smithing guild says so. And anyone who buys or sells outside the guild's framework can forget about ever obtaining metals or forged items ever again. A smith who sells horseshoes for a price that is not what the guild says might be out of a job. "It's worth what I'm willing to sell it for" isn't the ironclad defense the ironsmith thinks it is.
This sort of thing wasn't even a rarity.

Just because something has a set price from a particular individual or organization doesn't mean it has objective value though.

[GloatingSwine]

Okay, so it effectively mind-whammies the seller into tacking on an additional 20gp to the cost.

And the buyer into accepting that this is totally fair and correct.

[EggKookoo]

And the buyer into accepting that this is totally fair and correct.

Is that necessary? The buyer is choosing to include the coin in an attempt to get rid of it. Spending 20gp to do so might be worth it, especially for a large purchase.

[Amnestic]

Start selling them off to noble idiots, dragons, and other collectors as art pieces. Indestructible gold with a negative worth? Someone's gonna pay plenty for it as curiosities and jokes.

[Mastikator]

Just because something has a set price from a particular individual or organization doesn't mean it has objective value though.

True, but there's no need for objective value. Just fixed price. Even a gold piece doesn't have objective value, it has a fixed monetary value of 1 gold piece. The value of it is something you have for the item when you decide (or not) to buy/sell it.
"This longsword is my only weapon at the moment, to me it has more value than 15gp, so I'm not willing to sell it for less than 50gp" but the vendor is not allowed to pay any other amount than 15gp. (or perhaps 7gp and 5sp, if the DM decides all vendors pay exactly half its value when buying back)

A healing potion is priced at 50gp because an alchemist/herbalist guild decided it. But a supreme healing potion's price is whatever you're willing to pay since it's not a standardized item controlled by the guild.

[Spore]

Of course you curse them to have insane weight and use them do punish your debtors when they are unable to pay your extortion ring masquerading as a church back. (https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Orzhov_Syndicate)

[KorvinStarmast]

Magic. It works by magic. It magically imposes the perception that the coin is worth -20gp on any being who attempts to engage in a transaction with it, and magically returns to the last person who accepted it in a transaction if it leaves them without passing through another one (so it can't be lost, stolen, or disposed of in any other way than being bought). What is the spell save DC, and which stat is the save based on? INT? WIS? CHA? We are in the 5e sub forum. :smallcool:

Start selling them off to noble idiots, dragons, and other collectors as art pieces. Indestructible gold with a negative worth? Someone's gonna pay plenty for it as curiosities and jokes. The auction house wants its cut in the coin of the realm, preferring the silver minted at the royal mint. :smallwink:

[rel]

Not sure how the negative value would be enforced, But indestructible items would probably make good weapons, armour, tools and so forth.

The downside can be mitigated by never buying anything yourself and leaving shopping and wealth management to the other members of the party.

[Gurgeh]

This seems a bit obtuse - why would you care about getting rid of it? At the absolute worst you could consider it useless but never need to care about it because it's a single coin and wouldn't meaningfully affect your encumbrance even if your table is using encumbrance rules.

If it's literally indestructible then its actual worth clearly outweighs the slap-on-the-wrist negative value (wedge a door open! use a bunch to make a suit of nigh-impenetrable armour!) and you could pretty easily justify selling it for a pretty hefty sum minus the notional sale penalty.

[tsotate]

I'd keep it around to compare to that one co-worker who's utterly useless, but seemingly can't be gotten rid of.

[Rukelnikov]

There's a couple things I don't get here.

For startes what its the incentive to get rid of the coin? Can't I just toss in my bag and keep on living as if I didn't have it?

Number two, how does this negative price work exactly? Suppose I say:

"heya, I'll give you 20 g if you also agree to take this coin with you"

Either they accept, then getting rid of it was pretty simple (still unsure why do I care about getting rid of it)

or they decline, which would mean the coin actual value is not -20, because ppl want more than 20g in order to take it.

The problem is trying to attach an absolute value to an intrinsically relative property as value.

[rel]

The thing that was tripping me up when considering the item was that it was a coin.
I found it conceptually easier to figure out when I thought of the item as something other than a coin.

e.g.

Flask of Stank
While this item is on your person you are generally seen as unpleasant by others. This manifests as them charging you an extra 20GP for any financial transaction. For example, buying a healing potion would cost 70gp instead of 50gp. Selling said healing potion would only net 5gp instead of 25gp, and so forth.

People affected by the magic will offer excuses and rationalise their decisions, but are unswayed by diplomatic overtures or rhetorical arguments. The owner of the Flask must either abide by the modified prices the vendors offer or not do business with them.


It would probably be more effective as a cursed item if it increased prices by a percentage e.g. things cost 20% more with a minimum possible increase of 20GP.
So buying a healing potion costs an extra 20GP, but buying plate costs an extra 300gp (1500 x 0.2).

[Satinavian]

So it is a debt without interest or runtime or annoyed creditor.

So... why not just sitting on it and ignoring it outright ? Technically it does nothing but lower your net worth and that is utterly irrelevant unless you have a very sophisticated wealth tax system, then it even saves you money.

[Clause]

You can use the forge domain power to make a lot of this cois in things like:
A super chastity belt
A unbreakable chest, door or fortress
A cup
A drill or emery
An ariet or a cannon ball
A boat
Etc.



U can also use the coin as a magical focus on a curse spell. Like: in the time this coin exists, you cannot run nor jump

[Beelzebub1111]

Manifested debt could be an interesting idea for a bank run by an evil lich. Sort of like a reverse Jacob Marley where the money you owe forms a chain link by link that drags you down. If you die before removing your debt it drags your soul to his phylactery to be devoured.

It would be set up like, he will gladly give out thousands of gold to help you with whatever you need but whatever you take he also gives you the negative amount plus 10%. To incentivize you to earn more and pay back the coins you are owed to him. The lord of the land tolerates it because it's beneficial to the kingdom to have people being able to start businesses easily and there is great wealth and prosperity, but the poor and the desparate can still fall through the cracks. could be a great plot hook.

[rel]

I've actually used a normal returning gold coin as a magical item in games before. If lost, stolen, or spent, it comes back to you.
So anything you buy with it is effectively free.
A neat way to handwave keeping track of sundry expenses, and an amusing aside when the town guard notice the owner is basically stealing stuff.

[OracleofWuffing]

I'll keep the coin, drop my normal currency next to me, and check if my cash-on-hand total underflows.

Yes, I know it won't work. I'm still going to dream.

[tsotate]

I'll keep the coin, drop my normal currency next to me, and check if my cash-on-hand total underflows.

Yes, I know it won't work. I'm still going to dream.
Depending on datatypes and local currency, you might be crushed to death if it works.