Shojo, Armor and Appearances

[Unoriginal]

Hello everyone.

The other day, after re-reading the parts of OotS in Azure City, the idea came to my mind that since Lord Shojo was shown to wear what I interpreted as full plate armor without visible effort or struggle in basically all his appearances (in fact, outside of Beklar's vision and the Draketooth illusion, I could only find him wearing something else in the flashback explaining Argent's silvered teeth), it probably meant that he was stronger than the average D&D human his age, who would have about 4 STR and as such would struggle even if the armor was enchanted to be lighter or made of a special material that is inherently lighter, like mithral, since even then full plate would put them in heavy load.

However, when I shared that hypothesis on the Class & Level Geekery thread, it was pointed out by all who reacted to it that a) it wasn't confirmed that Shojo was wearing full plate and b) even if it looked like full plate, it could be an illusion/a gleamered lighter outfit.

I thought about it, and while I feel like there are elements pointing toward "it's actual full plate armor" (notably that the visual depiction of the armor match the ones of characters confirmed to wear plate, plus that there were several practical reasons for Shojo to wear as protective an armor as possible, no practical reasons to not do it if he could wear such an armor, and that since he didn't mind being seen as a powerless old man so there was no impractical reasons for him to pretend he could), I still have to consider the points raised by others, with the additional other objections to that hypothesis I could see myself such as "the comic only care about carrying capacity when it generate fun, drama or both".

Following that, I also realized that Shojo appeared in quite a few bonus pages and side stories (including one entirely from Mr. Scruffy's POV) that I never got to read since I don't own any of the OotS books yet, and wondered if said additional appearances could shed light on the question at hand.

So, my question is: for the people who do have access to the books, are there any hints that Shojo's armor is a) not full plate or b) just an illusion of full plate he has to look the part of Paladin Leader?

EDIT: indicating any moments where Shojo isn't wearing armor, if there are any other ones, would also be very helpful.

Thank you in advance!

[ZhonLord]

Hello everyone.

The other day, after re-reading the parts of OotS in Azure City, the idea came to my mind that since Lord Shojo was shown to wear what I interpreted as full plate armor without visible effort or struggle in basically all his appearances (in fact, outside of Beklar's vision and the Draketooth illusion, I could only find him wearing something else in the flashback explaining Argent's silvered teeth), it probably meant that he was stronger than the average D&D human his age, who would have about 4 STR and as such would struggle even if the armor was enchanted to be lighter or made of a special material that is inherently lighter, like mithral, since even then full plate would put them in heavy load.

However, when I shared that hypothesis on the Class & Level Geekery thread, it was pointed out by all who reacted to it that a) it wasn't confirmed that Shojo was wearing full plate and b) even if it looked like full plate, it could be an illusion/a gleamered lighter outfit.

I thought about it, and while I feel like there are elements pointing toward "it's actual full plate armor" (notably that the visual depiction of the armor match the ones of characters confirmed to wear plate, plus that there were several practical reasons for Shojo to wear as protective an armor as possible, no practical reasons to not do it if he could wear such an armor, and that since he didn't mind being seen as a powerless old man so there was no impractical reasons for him to pretend he could), I still have to consider the points raised by others, with the additional other objections to that hypothesis I could see myself such as "the comic only care about carrying capacity when it generate fun, drama or both".

Following that, I also realized that Shojo appeared in quite a few bonus pages and side stories (including one entirely from Mr. Scruffy's POV) that I never got to read since I don't own any of the OotS books yet, and wondered if said additional appearances could shed light on the question at hand.

So, my question is: for the people who do have access to the books, are there any hints that Shojo's armor is a) not full plate or b) just an illusion of full plate he has to look the part of Paladin Leader?

EDIT: indicating any moments where Shojo isn't wearing armor, if there are any other ones, would also be very helpful.

Thank you in advance!

First off, it should be noted that the 3.5 Aristocrat NPC class is proficient in all armor types, so it's plausible that he COULD be wearing heavy armor. And in GDGU he's shown wearing similar armor to Claire, who is O-Chul's military superior, so regardless of what he's wearing at the end of his life he probably was wearing Heavy armor for a while in his pre-"senile" stage.


The problem is, we've seen strong fighters utterly BISECT other individuals in what is obviously heavy armor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). In D&D, armor class is about how hard you are to hit, not how hard you are to damage. So Miko cutting into Shojo like this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html) isn't really any indication of whether his armor was durable or paper-thin.

The best example I can offer for visual evidence that he wasn't wearing plate armor in the MAIN comic though, is that plate armor by design has very little flexibility available to it. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1291.html) As such, I find it very unlikely that Shojo's Big Ol' Beer Gut (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html) would show up when he's sitting and go away when he's standing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) if he were wearing armor that couldn't flex. It would have to be designed for his gut and stay showing even when he stands, like how Haley's desert armor hanging on the wall here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html) is designed to always have chest support.


It's entirely possible the old man was wearing heavy armor at his death, but I think the visual cues point towards Medium instead. It can still have the shoulder plates, but it's more flexible for someone who needs to not have his joints destroy him for sitting on a throne in full plate for hours on end.

[Errorname]

I thought it might have been meant as a fabric or mail armour, but this flashback gives a brief glimpse at his outfit revised for the new style (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html) and there's a noticeable breastplate.

[KorvinStarmast]

Half Plate/Light Plate also has a breast plate, and shoulder armor.

[Unoriginal]

First off, it should be noted that the 3.5 Aristocrat NPC class is proficient in all armor types, so it's plausible that he COULD be wearing heavy armor. And in GDGU he's shown wearing similar armor to Claire, who is O-Chul's military superior, so regardless of what he's wearing at the end of his life he probably was wearing Heavy armor for a while in his pre-"senile" stage.

Indeed. Furthermore, while faking senility did get assassins off his back, a man who describes himself as having Improved Paranoia would not stop wearing the most protective armor he could wear just in case someone saw through the facade or decided a senile, easily manipulated ruler needed to be killed anyway (to keep their enemies from using him, for example).

So Shojo had the training to wear full plate and a reason to wear full plate. The question remains if he actually was doing it, for now.



The problem is, we've seen strong fighters utterly BISECT other individuals in what is obviously heavy armor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). In D&D, armor class is about how hard you are to hit, not how hard you are to damage. So Miko cutting into Shojo like this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html) isn't really any indication of whether his armor was durable or paper-thin.

Agreed



The best example I can offer for visual evidence that he wasn't wearing plate armor in the MAIN comic though, is that plate armor by design has very little flexibility available to it. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1291.html)

I interpreted that comment by Lien to mean she didn't have Haley's DEX and/or lithe build, rather than specifically being about the armors they wear.

After all, armor can be removed, and neither the OotS nor TTRPGs as a whole are stranger to "let's remove our armors" shenanigans.

That brings something else to mind, though: Shojo's armor looks quite different from any Sapphire Guard member's armor seen in the main comic, including the ones worn by Soon and by Shojo's own father. It looks the closest to the armor of the old general who fought alongside Vaarsavius during the Azure City siege (same grey torso piece, same pauldrons, same grey shoes), and a close second to me would be Kubota's armor (aside from being purple), which is both as protective as money can buy and heavy enough Elan made a quip about it being impractical to swim in.

You mention that in GDGU, Shojo is wearing armor similar to O-Chul's superior, so could it be assumed the Azure City general would be wearing the same kind of armor, post-art upgrade?



As such, I find it very unlikely that Shojo's Big Ol' Beer Gut (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html) would show up when he's sitting and go away when he's standing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) if he were wearing armor that couldn't flex. It would have to be designed for his gut and stay showing even when he stands, like how Haley's desert armor hanging on the wall here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html) is designed to always have chest support.

Fair points, but let's not forget that Haley's desert armor was also said to be too flexible and covering too little to work as armor with real world logic, so I think that can be chalked up to it being as rigid as needed to optimize sexiness.

I also seem to recall some instances of plate armor "bending" in the comic for art style considerations, although I wouldn't bet on this being accurate.



It's entirely possible the old man was wearing heavy armor at his death, but I think the visual cues point towards Medium instead. It can still have the shoulder plates, but it's more flexible for someone who needs to not have his joints destroy him for sitting on a throne in full plate for hours on end.

I don't think DnD or OotS characters have that kind of problems. Unless it's funny, of course.

In any case, you raise fairly good points. Just one question: is GDGU taking place far enough in the past that Shojo would have less age-based stat penalties?

[Errorname]

You mention that in GDGU, Shojo is wearing armor similar to O-Chul's superior, so could it be assumed the Azure City general would be wearing the same kind of armor, post-art upgrade?

There's similarities but they're pretty far from identical. General Nhek has a clear breastplate which isn't present in Shojo's GDGU design, which is basically his main comic version with redesigned shoulders and a cape, and does not feature the breastplate from his appearance in #998

[Provengreil]

Maybe he has a STR belt to go with it?

[Tubercular Ox]

It's interesting to me how easy it is to believe that Rich would draw Shojo with armor that we're supposed to ignore, to the point that we suggest Glamered armor to explain why, but suggesting that Rich would give an aging aristocrat magic armor that accommodates his paunch when necessary is far-fetched and a point against the idea that Shojo is wearing real armor.

If ceremonial armor were important to my assassin-prone position, I'd probably pay for it to be comfortable before I pay for something with less protection to look like it.

Doesn't magic armor size itself to the wearer as a free option anyways?

[Provengreil]

It's interesting to me how easy it is to believe that Rich would draw Shojo with armor that we're supposed to ignore, to the point that we suggest Glamered armor to explain why, but suggesting that Rich would give an aging aristocrat magic armor that accommodates his paunch when necessary is far-fetched and a point against the idea that Shojo is wearing real armor.

If ceremonial armor were important to my assassin-prone position, I'd probably pay for it to be comfortable before I pay for something with less protection to look like it.

Doesn't magic armor size itself to the wearer as a free option anyways?

You ever bought shoes? Size and Fit are different, though related, things.

Honestly this is one of those things we're probably supposed to ignore. Shojo is the aging leader: he has to be old, and he has to dress the part. A quirk in the load minutia of the rules intersecting with his age penalties is probably just a small hole.

[MoonCat]

Shojo isn't wearing armor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html) in Belkar's Draketooth dream.

It might also be useful to look at Belkar's other dream sequence (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html), which gives some interesting shots of Shojo in his normal outfit, other clothes, and others in Shojo's clothes.

[InvisibleBison]

Maybe he has a STR belt to go with it?

This is the simplest explanation. Even if we ignore the fact that Shojo is a king and consequently could reasonably be assumed to be quite wealthy, mithral full plate (which only weighs 25 pounds) and a belt of giant strength +4 (which would get his Strength to 8 and his light load to 26 pounds) are well within the WBL of a 14th level NPC.

[Unoriginal]

This is the simplest explanation. Even if we ignore the fact that Shojo is a king and consequently could reasonably be assumed to be quite wealthy, mithral full plate (which only weighs 25 pounds) and a belt of giant strength +4 (which would get his Strength to 8 and his light load to 26 pounds) are well within the WBL of a 14th level NPC.

That... is not the simplest explanation.

The simplest explanation (which one should not mistake for "most likely one" or "correct one") is the explanation that require the less extra factors to what is known.

So the simplest explanation is that Shojo was strong enough in his physical prime that he could still wear heavy armor as an old man.

It remains to be seen if it is the correct explanation, and perhaps it will be impossible to establish what is correct. But that's the simplest.

[InvisibleBison]

That... is not the simplest explanation.

The simplest explanation (which one should not mistake for "most likely one" or "correct one") is the explanation that require the less extra factors to what is known.

So the simplest explanation is that Shojo was strong enough in his physical prime that he could still wear heavy armor as an old man.

It remains to be seen if it is the correct explanation, and perhaps it will be impossible to establish what is correct. But that's the simplest.

You're right, it's not the overall simplest explanation. I meant it's the simplest explanation if we assume that Shojo didn't have exceptional Strength, and thus in his old age had a base Strength of 4. I'm not sure how I came to the conclusion that this discussion was based on that assumption, though.

[Unoriginal]

I thought it might have been meant as a fabric or mail armour, but this flashback gives a brief glimpse at his outfit revised for the new style (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html) and there's a noticeable breastplate.

Thank you a lot, Errorname!

I didn't remember there was a flashback Shojo after the art upgrade, this is definitively useful.


Half Plate/Light Plate also has a breast plate, and shoulder armor.

Possible, but given pre-art upgrade he had his grey shoes and post-art upgrade this was translated into grey pants with two-part grey shoes, I'd say the intent was meant to convey he's in metal from neck to toes.

It's basically the same visual signifiers that, for example, Hilgya has to show how armored she is.


There's similarities but they're pretty far from identical. General Nhek has a clear breastplate which isn't present in Shojo's GDGU design, which is basically his main comic version with redesigned shoulders and a cape, and does not feature the breastplate from his appearance in #998

Thank you again.

Mmmh, I suppose the Giant re-redesigned him for #998, then?


It's interesting to me how easy it is to believe that Rich would draw Shojo with armor that we're supposed to ignore

I personally don't find that easy to believe.



Honestly this is one of those things we're probably supposed to ignore. Shojo is the aging leader: he has to be old, and he has to dress the part. A quirk in the load minutia of the rules intersecting with his age penalties is probably just a small hole.

I... don't understand.

The author is conveying information, why should we ignore them?

Leaders can dress in a variety of way, even if we only take the ones showing up in OotS. Or to put it differently, there are several ways to "dress the part", and which one is chosen is meant to evoke something on top of just "this one is in charge". See how Bozzok dresses vs how Xykon dresses.

That Shojo specifically wears armor for most of his appearances do mean several things about him, and it's likely that "is still strong enough to wear plate armor" is one of them, even if the Giant doesn't care about the mechanical minutiae.


Shojo isn't wearing armor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html) in Belkar's Draketooth dream.

It might also be useful to look at Belkar's other dream sequence (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html), which gives some interesting shots of Shojo in his normal outfit, other clothes, and others in Shojo's clothes.

I pointed that out in the OP:


in fact, outside of Beklar's vision and the Draketooth illusion, I could only find him wearing something else in the flashback explaining Argent's silvered teeth


You're right, it's not the overall simplest explanation. I meant it's the simplest explanation if we assume that Shojo didn't have exceptional Strength, and thus in his old age had a base Strength of 4. I'm not sure how I came to the conclusion that this discussion was based on that assumption, though.

Worth noting that while "above 10 as an adult" is above average, having for example 14 STR isn't big an investment for someone with a NPC class which mainly rely on STR for attack and defense.

[Provengreil]

I... don't understand.

The author is conveying information, why should we ignore them?

Leaders can dress in a variety of way, even if we only take the ones showing up in OotS. Or to put it differently, there are several ways to "dress the part", and which one is chosen is meant to evoke something on top of just "this one is in charge". See how Bozzok dresses vs how Xykon dresses.

That Shojo specifically wears armor for most of his appearances do mean several things about him, and it's likely that "is still strong enough to wear plate armor" is one of them, even if the Giant doesn't care about the mechanical minutiae.


The fact that the giant doesn't care about riles minutia* is exactly my point. If there's a plot hole wherein Shojo doesn't have the strength to carry the armor without gasping, then it means nothing more than that Rich decided that a leader literally straining to wear his own crown was a dumb addition and ignored it.


*More accurately, the narrative trumps the 3.5 ruleset unless there's a good joke in there somewhere.

[Unoriginal]

The fact that the giant doesn't care about riles minutia* is exactly my point. If there's a plot hole wherein Shojo doesn't have the strength to carry the armor without gasping, then it means nothing more than that Rich decided that a leader literally straining to wear his own crown was a dumb addition and ignored it.

Do you agree that Shojo is strong enough to carry the armor, then?

[ShadowSandbag]

I think shojo is wearing armor, and this tells us nothing about his actual strength score.

I think that when Rich designed Shojo he thought "Oh, it would make sense for this character to be wearing armor." I do not think he thought about the strength requirements for different armor types, or the strength penalty that would come with Shojo's age. Rich has mentioned that he does not have full character sheets for the main cast, and has no interest in making them. Based on this, I would be beyond shocked if he had ever considered Shojo's strength score. The only way I could see it ever coming up is if Rich wanted to make it a punchline for a strip.

[Unoriginal]

I think shojo is wearing armor, and this tells us nothing about his actual strength score.

I think that when Rich designed Shojo he thought "Oh, it would make sense for this character to be wearing armor." I do not think he thought about the strength requirements for different armor types, or the strength penalty that would come with Shojo's age. Rich has mentioned that he does not have full character sheets for the main cast, and has no interest in making them. Based on this, I would be beyond shocked if he had ever considered Shojo's strength score. The only way I could see it ever coming up is if Rich wanted to make it a punchline for a strip.

Fair, but consider the following:

1) Showing a character wearing, carrying or moving heavy objects without effort is often used in fiction as a signifier of how strong that character is.

2) Most 70+ years old people, in real life and fiction, are less physically strong than people in their prime.

3) Full plate, both in real life and fiction but especially in fiction, is heavy to wear and cubersome to move in. OotS has demonstrated so both before and after Shojo's introduction.

Therefore, those points can be synthetized into: "a 70yo person wearing full plate and moving around without effort, in a fictional work where full plate has been portrayed as heavy and cubersome, signifies that this 70yo is physically stronger than the average 70yo."

I'm not making claims that the Giant calculated precisely how much Shojo could wear or anything of the like.

I'm saying that the Giant chose to portray Shojo as "old man in heavy armor", that old men who can wear heavy armor are stronger than old men who can't, AKA the average old men, and that therefore the Giant chose to portray Shojo as stronger than the average old man.

Do you disagree with this reasoning?


If a character's minimum and/or maximum STR can be extrapolated because the author is using a known system as reference sometime or not is a different point.

[woweedd]

Fair, but consider the following:

1) Showing a character wearing, carrying or moving heavy objects without effort is often used in fiction as a signifier of how strong that character is.

2) Most 70+ years old people, in real life and fiction, are less physically strong than people in their prime.

3) Full plate, both in real life and fiction but especially in fiction, is heavy to wear and cubersome to move in. OotS has demonstrated so both before and after Shojo's introduction.

Therefore, those points can be synthetized into: "a 70yo person wearing full plate and moving around without effort, in a fictional work where full plate has been portrayed as heavy and cubersome, signifies that this 70yo is physically stronger than the average 70yo."

I'm not making claims that the Giant calculated precisely how much Shojo could wear or anything of the like.

I'm saying that the Giant chose to portray Shojo as "old man in heavy armor", that old men who can wear heavy armor are stronger than old men who can't, AKA the average old men, and that therefore the Giant chose to portray Shojo as stronger than the average old man.

Do you disagree with this reasoning?


If a character's minimum and/or maximum STR can be extrapolated because the author is using a known system as reference sometime or not is a different point.
I mean, the question in that case is "how do you know it's full plate"? Shojo's a king, it's not like he couldn't afford mithral.

[Unoriginal]

I mean, the question in that case is "how do you know it's full plate"?

The visual information provided by the Giant show Shojo a) wearing metal b) having said metal cover his body entirely aside from head and hands, with a breastplate, armored shoes and pauldrons being formally identifiable.

Therefore, in the absence of something contradicting said information, one has to conclude that it is indeed full plate



Shojo's a king, it's not like he couldn't afford mithral.

Indeed. The late lord of the lapis-lazuli-colored land did have the means to afford mithral.

If you have any information that supports or confirm the "Shojo was wearing mithral" hypothesis, it would be a great boon for this discussion, given how scarce the evidences are otherwise.

[Metastachydium]

The visual information provided by the Giant show Shojo a) wearing metal b) having said metal cover his body entirely aside from head and hands, with a breastplate, armored shoes and pauldrons being formally identifiable.

Therefore, in the absence of something contradicting said information, one has to conclude that it is indeed full plate

Disagreed. As others have pointed out, his armour looks way too flexible most of the time; the "breastplate" is really just a modest gorget that barely covers half his upper chest; and the boots or the pauldrons don't tell us anything about armour type (Durkon wears full plate with simple boots; Miko has pauldrons similar to Shojo's, but can't be wearing armour any heavier than light, given her use of Evasion).


Indeed. The late lord of the lapis-lazuli-colored land did have the means to afford mithral.

If you have any information that supports or confirm the "Shojo was wearing mithral" hypothesis, it would be a great boon for this discussion, given how scarce the evidences are otherwise.

As for that, I don't have anything nearly as concrete, but he is the kind of guy who just randomly outfits his nephew's dog with a set of silver teeth (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html) because he can do it.

[Errorname]

Disagreed. As others have pointed out, his armour looks way too flexible most of the time; the "breastplate" is really just a modest gorget that barely covers half his upper chest; and the boots or the pauldrons don't tell us anything about armour type (Durkon wears full plate with simple boots; Miko has pauldrons similar to Shojo's, but can't be wearing armour any heavier than light, given her use of Evasion).

We have different definitions of 'modest' for a gorget, although gorget is definitely more accurate terminology than breastplate (I'm not an armouries nerd, sorry)

But I think it is fair to note that at least what's depicted in #998 appears heavier than standard fare for Azurites.

[Unoriginal]

Disagreed. As others have pointed out, his armour looks way too flexible most of the time; the "breastplate" is really just a modest gorget that barely covers half his upper chest

My apologies, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Which part are you describing as a "modest gorget"?

[Errorname]

My apologies, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Which part are you describing as a "modest gorget"?

The bit I'd identified as a breastplate. Calling it a Gorget (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Gorget_MET_DP-12881-024.jpg) is probably more accurate, breastplates tend to cover most of the chest and what Shojo's wearing in #998 is clearly neck and upper torso. The name slipped my mind, and even if I had remembered it I would have associated it more with the later completely ceremonial Gorget (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Washington_1772.jpg) that had diminished to being little more than an indicator of rank.

That said, from my (limited) research a Gorget that covers most of the upper chest is on the larger end for one of these things, and I'd hardly call it modest when plenty of gorgets would fit comfortably in your hand.

[Unoriginal]

The bit I'd identified as a breastplate. Calling it a Gorget (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Gorget_MET_DP-12881-024.jpg) is probably more accurate, breastplates tend to cover most of the chest and what Shojo's wearing in #998 is clearly neck and upper torso. The name slipped my mind, and even if I had remembered it I would have associated it more with the later completely ceremonial Gorget (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Washington_1772.jpg) that had diminished to being little more than an indicator of rank.

That said, from my (limited) research a Gorget that covers most of the upper chest is on the larger end for one of these things, and I'd hardly call it modest when plenty of gorgets would fit comfortably in your hand.

Honestly, it doesn't look like it stops at the upper torso to me, and there is a distinct change of color between the neck area and the chest area.


Concerning the point several people have made about Shojo's slouching the armor bending for his belly, I checked the comic more and there are several (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1182.html) pages (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1188.html) where Roy's heavy armor (as he describes it) bends to accommodate his slouched posture (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1180.html), even if it is not quite as marked as Shojo's.

Unless we want to speculate about how Roy's armor is enchanted to be flexible or the like, I think we have to conclude that the comic's art style let armor bends in order to transmit more visual information through the characters' postures.

[Gurgeh]

The rub with 998 is that Shojo's slouching posture obscures most of his chest and abdomen thanks to his arm, the arm of the throne, and Mr Scruffy; that said, he's got obvious pauldrons and his boots are rendered in a metallic grey. I think it's entirely defensible to say that he's wearing full plate, but it would be just as reasonable to say that he's wearing something a bit lighter, at least down to a breastplate (in 3.5 SRD terms).

I also wouldn't say that the standard Sapphire Guard outfit is necessarily lighter, either - 998 makes it clear that the white part of Hinjo's outfit is a surcoat worn over a metallic under-layer, which could be anything from a simple mail shirt up to a full plate getup.

With that said, I don't think we can draw any useful conclusions about Shojo's strength score from this, even if we apply CLG standards (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?639009-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIX-Nobody-Cares-about-that-Stuff-Anymore) instead of the (generally reasonable) assumption that the author probably isn't following the rules that closely.

As several people have pointed out, Shojo is staggeringly wealthy, and while he is profligate he's also quite pragmatic. It would be trivial for him to invest in any number of magical or nonmagical ways to handle a suit of full plate - from mithral through various means of magical strength enhancement.

[Unoriginal]

With that said, I don't think we can draw any useful conclusions about Shojo's strength score from this, even if we apply CLG standards (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?639009-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIX-Nobody-Cares-about-that-Stuff-Anymore) instead of the (generally reasonable) assumption that the author probably isn't following the rules that closely.

Fair point, but, even ignoring STR score and CLG standards, I think "the author portraying a 70yo human as wearing heavy armor without struggle conveys that this character is physically stronger than the average 70yo human" is a reasonable assumption too.



As several people have pointed out, Shojo is staggeringly wealthy, and while he is profligate he's also quite pragmatic. It would be trivial for him to invest in any number of magical or nonmagical ways to handle a suit of full plate - from mithral through various means of magical strength enhancement.

True, but someone being capable of doing something trivially isn't evidence they've done it.

Shojo was wealthy enough to get a Belt of Giant's Strength, but he also wealthy enough to get items that'd let him do Mirror Image or Dimension Door to escape a killer more easily, and there's no way we can know he had any of those unless it's shown in-comic. Plus the fact Hinjo would have inherited all of the old man's magic items, so the Giant would probably have mentioned it if Hinjo had gotten a boost in survival chances thanks to items, given how an important mission objective in the Azure City siege was to keep the new lord alive.

If anyone has evidences pointing to Shojo having a mithral armor or magic items, it would be great. But saying "the old man's armor is lightier than it appears" or "he had magical boost to wear heavy armor" are hypotheses that needs to be supported by evidences.

"I know he is weak because he needs magic to wear his armor, and I know he needs magic to wear his armor because he is weak" is circular reasoning. Shojo being old isn't evidence he is too weak to wear armor without magic/special material making it possible, as other people in the same universe who were as old (or their species' equivalent) have shown to be able to do that or even greater demonstrations of strength.

EDIT:

More evidences of OotS's artstyle allowing flexibility in otherwise rigid armor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html) to go with posture, for both on-the-ground Roy and (flashback) Durkon.

[Metastachydium]

Honestly, it doesn't look like it stops at the upper torso to me, and there is a distinct change of color between the neck area and the chest area.

In today's breaking news, we find metal is metallic in colour!


Unless we want to speculate about how Roy's armor is enchanted to be flexible or the like, I think we have to conclude that the comic's art style let armor bends in order to transmit more visual information through the characters' postures.

Okay, so… Flexibility might not be perfectly watertight evidence. Fine and dandy with me. All that does mean, however, is thet we do not know he is not wearing heavy armour. As I've pointed out, the pauldrons or the boots, let alone the gorget (which is not a breastplate), do not, on the other hand, prove that his armour is heavy.

I'm increasingly convinced the answer to your original question is "no, we can't tell what type of armour, exactly, Shojo's actually wearing, so his armour doesn't tell us anything about his STR score". Honestly, if we want to speculate about his starting STR before going old, the other thing you brought up with Wizard Guy's partially digested skeleton could probably be more helpful.

[Unoriginal]

In today's breaking news, we find metal is metallic in colour!

Given how several people argued that metallic in color does not indicate that it is metal, this is indeed news.

[QUOTE=Metastachydium;25942709]
Okay, so… Flexibility might not be perfectly watertight evidence. Fine and dandy with me. All that does mean, however, is thet we do not know he is not wearing heavy armour. As I've pointed out, the pauldrons or the boots, let alone the gorget (which is not a breastplate), do not, on the other hand, prove that his armour is heavy.

I'm increasingly convinced the answer to your original question is "no, we can't tell what type of armour, exactly, Shojo's actually wearing, so his armour doesn't tell us anything about his STR score".

I don't think we've reached the point where we can make this conclusion yet, and I am not convinced by the "it is a gorget not a breastplate" hypothesis. However since analyzing that question further require digging more than I am able or willing at the moment, I'm perfectly willing to let that aside for now.



Honestly, if we want to speculate about his starting STR before going old, the other thing you brought up with Wizard Guy's partially digested skeleton could probably be more helpful.

Fair.

According to research, an average human skeleton weights approximately 10.5 kgs, or ~23 lbs. Nothing indicates Wizard Guy did not have an average human skeleton, so we can use this figure as approximation.

However, Wizard Guy's skeleton was missing his legs and pelvic griddle. I think it is fair to estimate, taking into account what's left of his clothes, to say the skeleton lost a bit more than a third of its total weight.

So, we can estimate that Shojo was manipulating and throwing (a short distance) about 15 lbs of skeleton, without any indication of physical strain or effort.

According to D&D 3.5, a Medium Greatsword weights 8 lbs, and a Large Greatsword 16 lbs. So Shojo would have been able to manipulate and throw (a short distance) a Large-sized Greatsword.

[gbaji]

Do you agree that Shojo is strong enough to carry the armor, then?

Uh... Does D&D even have strength requirements for wearing armor? I mean, it's one thing for us to consider some 70+ year old guy trying to hang out all day long in full plate or something, but in game terms is that any different than anyone else hanging out all day long in full plate? AFAIK, if he has a class that allows him to wear a given type of armor, he can wear it, no more or less than a 20 year old version of himself.

Having said that, my personal head cannon is that he is wearing some normal clothing that is fashioned to look like the SG style armor (shoulder pads and whatnot), but is otherwise much lighter and comfortable than actual armor. It's just for looks basically. A uniform to show his position.

[Gurgeh]

3.5 doesn't have explicit strength requirements for armour types but armour does have non-trivial weight (though most heavy armours are only slightly heavier than medium armours). The system also doesn't make a distinction between the weight of worn equipment vs carrying it in your arms or in a pack, etc.

The issue is that 3.5 applies savage penalties to physical ability scores due to age; 70 is the threshold for humans to hit the "venerable" age category, which effectively gives +3 int/wis/cha and -6 to str/dex/con. Carrying capacity is very low (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm) for lower strength scores, so the thrust of Unoriginal's argument is that Shojo must have had a decently high strength before the ageing penalty is taken out to account for the fact that he seems to be wearing 50 pounds or so of armour.

[Unoriginal]

3.5 doesn't have explicit strength requirements for armour types but armour does have non-trivial weight (though most heavy armours are only slightly heavier than medium armours). The system also doesn't make a distinction between the weight of worn equipment vs carrying it in your arms or in a pack, etc.

The issue is that 3.5 applies savage penalties to physical ability scores due to age; 70 is the threshold for humans to hit the "venerable" age category, which effectively gives +3 int/wis/cha and -6 to str/dex/con. Carrying capacity is very low (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm) for lower strength scores, so the thrust of Unoriginal's argument is that Shojo must have had a decently high strength before the ageing penalty is taken out to account for the fact that he seems to be wearing 50 pounds or so of armour.

While 3.5's armor weight and age penalties are quite hyperbolic, I would also like to point out that even out of the ruleset a 70yo being able to wearheavy armor without issues is still pretty unusual. And in fiction it is usually an indicator the old person is stronger than their age suggest.

I know of one historical, medieval example of a 60+yo nobleman who had to fight a judicial duel against a man half his age, after being cornered by his political enemies.

The 60yo one had survived warfare when he was younger, then being on the run from other nobles for years, but predictably the fight was an one-sided massacre in favor of the younger duelist.

[Provengreil]

Do you agree that Shojo is strong enough to carry the armor, then?

Given that it's seen in every present day strip he's in, yes I do.

I'd also note that the only penalty for being under a medium load is no different than wearing heavy armor in the first place, you just move a bit slower. A STR belt and mithral armor would easily allow Shojo to move around like this, and given his paranoia seems like the kind of investment he'd make.

[Unoriginal]

Given that it's seen in every present day strip he's in, yes I do.

Then we are in agreement for that point.



I'd also note that the only penalty for being under a medium load is no different than wearing heavy armor in the first place, you just move a bit slower. A STR belt and mithral armor would easily allow Shojo to move around like this, and given his paranoia seems like the kind of investment he'd make.

A STR belt and mithral armor would easily allow Shojo to move around like this, yes.

But simply having an higher STR than the average 70yo human would also easily Shojo to move around like that.

Do you have any piece of evidence indicating that Shojo's armor is a mithral one and/or that he has a Belt of Giant's Strength?

Again, just having the means (monetary and acces to sellers) to acquire those items is not evidence someone would do it or have the need to do it.

EDIT:

Or, if you prefer this angle, do you have any evidence that Shojo was as physically weak as the average 70-years-old human?

Or any evidence that The Giant would portray this old man as wearing armor while intending to make the audience think "this old man is as weak as the average old man, so he is too weak to move that easily in the armor he's depicted as wearing, but magic items and special armor compensate that" rather than "this old man is wearing armor the average old man couldn't move in easily, so he is stronger than the average old man"?

[Provengreil]

A STR belt and mithral armor would easily allow Shojo to move around like this, yes.

But simply having an higher STR than the average 70yo human would also easily Shojo to move around like that.

Do you have any piece of evidence indicating that Shojo's armor is a mithral one and/or that he has a Belt of Giant's Strength?

Again, just having the means (monetary and acces to sellers) to acquire those items is not evidence someone would do it or have the need to do it.

Of course not. But I'm not necessarily suggesting that he has those items so much as allowing for reasonable fig leaves as to why he's not buckling under the strain of wearing it.

[Unoriginal]

Of course not. But I'm not necessarily suggesting that he has those items so much as allowing for reasonable fig leaves as to why he's not buckling under the strain of wearing it.

Do you think that the "Shojo is strong enough to wear his armor without buckling under the strain" hypothesis to be so ridiculous or preposterous that reasonable fig leaves are needed?

[Provengreil]

Do you think that the "Shojo is strong enough to wear his armor without buckling under the strain" hypothesis to be so ridiculous or preposterous that reasonable fig leaves are needed?

I think you have a character with the NPC stat array, a LOT of reasons to put the high stats in the mental areas and the results to show for having done so, debilitating age penalties, and a carry weight table that is very unkind to those with such penalties: something, somewhere, isn't fitting without them.

Now, my real answer to this is that Rich Burlew didn't care and drew Shojo in the armor as his day wear and moving around normally in it because that's the character, stats be damned. But you said you can't understand that argument so fig leaves it is.

[Unoriginal]

Now, my real answer to this is that Rich Burlew didn't care and drew Shojo in the armor as his day wear and moving around normally in it because that's the character, stats be damned. But you said you can't understand that argument so fig leaves it is.

Yes, that's the character.

Now, if an author chooses to depict an old man as doing without issues something the average old man would struggle with, do you disagree with the idea that the author is choosing to depict this person as stronger than the average old man, making "stronger than average person his age" part of "that's the character"?

I mean, if an author chooses to portay an old man as being unable to walk without a cane, do you disagree with the idea that "has mobility troubles" is part of "that's the character"?

[Provengreil]

Yes, that's the character.

Now, if an author chooses to depict an old man as doing without issues something the average old man would struggle with, do you disagree with the idea that the author is choosing to depict this person as stronger than the average old man, making "stronger than average person his age" part of "that's the character"?

I mean, if an author chooses to portay an old man as being unable to walk without a cane, do you disagree with the idea that "has mobility troubles" is part of "that's the character"?

All the author wanted to do was portray him wearing his clothes and going about his day. If there was a purpose served by him being stronger than average, we'd have seen something come of that fact.

[Unoriginal]

All the author wanted to do was portray him wearing his clothes and going about his day. If there was a purpose served by him being stronger than average, we'd have seen something come of that fact.

So in your thinking, having the right look is not purpose enough for the author?

[Precure]

I think this is a question only Rich Burlew can answer.

[Bacon Elemental]

Its absolutely impossible to know the answer, and whether "Shojo was a strong man in his youth" or "Shojo uses magic and wealth to make up for his weakness" or "Shojo is wearing lighter armour" or hell, "Shojo wears overly heavy armour for reasons of his own motives" are the case is kinda not even important enough to ask the author anymore (Especially since the real answer is almost certainly more like "Is armor really that heavy in 3.5? Wow. I didnt even remember that".)


That being said, 3.5 carry weight is so brutal and armour-worn weight is so high that you can say that even in his prime, he'd be encumbered by plate if he wasn't very strong. You need 13 strength to be able to wear Plate without being encumbered, if you're wearing and carrying absolutely nothing else, and by 14 strength you're still only "medium" encumbered even after the -6 from Venerable.

[Unoriginal]

That being said, 3.5 carry weight is so brutal and armour-worn weight is so high that you can say that even in his prime, he'd be encumbered by plate if he wasn't very strong. You need 13 strength to be able to wear Plate without being encumbered, if you're wearing and carrying absolutely nothing else, and by 14 strength you're still only "medium" encumbered even after the -6 from Venerable.

I mean, I never thought about him being not encumbered at all, just able to move better than a tree under dwarven attack.

14 STR in his prime reduced to 8 as a venerable elder is what I'd call "generous but within reasonable expectations".

[KorvinStarmast]

So in your thinking, having the right look is not purpose enough for the author?

What if his armor is made of mithril / mithral (or the D&D 3.5e equivaent?)
He's rich - his dad was lord of the city - I'd say that he could afford it.

[Unoriginal]

What if his armor is made of mithril / mithral (or the D&D 3.5e equivaent?)
He's rich - his dad was lord of the city - I'd say that he could afford it.

I would be very happy to be presented with any evidence confirming or suggesting that Shojo's armor was made of mithral.

But someone being able to afford something is not evidence of something being purchased by someone.

[Provengreil]

So in your thinking, having the right look is not purpose enough for the author?

What the actual feck are you on about at this point?

My second post in the thread was this:



Honestly this is one of those things we're probably supposed to ignore. Shojo is the aging leader: he has to be old, and he has to dress the part. A quirk in the load minutia of the rules intersecting with his age penalties is probably just a small hole.

That's my stance on the matter and I have no interest in speaking to you further here.

[Metastachydium]

Given how several people argued that metallic in color does not indicate that it is metal, this is indeed news.

Man, please don't even remind me of the "but the Hobgoblins are Hobgoblins so they must be wearing studded leather" thing from back when! (I.e., fair enough.)


I don't think we've reached the point where we can make this conclusion yet, and I am not convinced by the "it is a gorget not a breastplate" hypothesis.

I do hop you'll never really need a breastplate, then!


According to research, an average human skeleton weights approximately 10.5 kgs, or ~23 lbs. Nothing indicates Wizard Guy did not have an average human skeleton, so we can use this figure as approximation.

However, Wizard Guy's skeleton was missing his legs and pelvic griddle. I think it is fair to estimate, taking into account what's left of his clothes, to say the skeleton lost a bit more than a third of its total weight.

So, we can estimate that Shojo was manipulating and throwing (a short distance) about 15 lbs of skeleton, without any indication of physical strain or effort.

According to D&D 3.5, a Medium Greatsword weights 8 lbs, and a Large Greatsword 16 lbs. So Shojo would have been able to manipulate and throw (a short distance) a Large-sized Greatsword.

Or, because a picture is worth a thousand words:

Geez, that could have killed me!! (In other words, good job! (Even though a Large greatsword is in fact only about as big as an adult Human (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0217.html).))

[Unoriginal]

Man, please don't even remind me of the "but the Hobgoblins are Hobgoblins so they must be wearing studded leather" thing from back when! (I.e., fair enough.)

I didn't know this had been a thing.

Probably for the best, had I been aware of that I likely would not have made this thread.



I do hop you'll never really need a breastplate, then!


Just to be 100% clear, I know the difference between the two, I just don't see what makes people certain that what Shojo is wearing as a gorget and not a breastplate.



Geez, that could have killed me!! (In other words, good job!

Thank you.



(Even though a Large greatsword is in fact only about as big as an adult Human (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0217.html).))

I dunno, Shojo was the ruler of a big and prosperous city, I'd say he was wealthy enough to afford an extra-long Large Greatsword.

[Errorname]

So in your thinking, having the right look is not purpose enough for the author?

I mean I can't speak for Rich, but if I had an NPC like this I guarantee you I would not have considered it. Shojo's one of those NPCs who's only going to get stats if a player forces the issue.

[Unoriginal]

I mean I can't speak for Rich, but if I had an NPC like this I guarantee you I would not have considered it. Shojo's one of those NPCs who's only going to get stats if a player forces the issue.

Independently of stats or any rule concern, just for the impression the character gives: do you think that an elderly ruler still wearing metal armor without strain or struggle evokes the impression this ruler is stronger than a regular person their age?

[Timy]

@unoriginal :

I am sold that the easiest explanation is for Shojo to have unusual strength if you want to stat him.

But, you seem to be in the mood to have it stated in the geekery thread.

If you have been paying attention to said thread, you should know that "easiest explanation" is not the standard. If there is a reasonable way to achieve something other than the aforementioned easiest way, you will not having it written in ink.

So, you will probably not convince the curator of said thread to modify the STR value of Shojo.

Sorry.

[Unoriginal]

@unoriginal :

I am sold that the easiest explanation is for Shojo to have unusual strength if you want to stat him.

But, you seem to be in the mood to have it stated in the geekery thread.

If you have been paying attention to said thread, you should know that "easiest explanation" is not the standard. If there is a reasonable way to achieve something other than the aforementioned easiest way, you will not having it written in ink.

So, you will probably not convince the curator of said thread to modify the STR value of Shojo.

Sorry.

Thank you, Timy.

All in all I am satisfied with the outcome of this thread. I've learned more about the topic, and I got to make a joke edit which I find quite funny if not particularly highbrow.

Thank you again to everyone who were kind enough to provide additional data.

[Metastachydium]

I dunno, Shojo was the ruler of a big and prosperous city, I'd say he was wealthy enough to afford an extra-long Large Greatsword.

(Well, he did have quite the junk… (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0418.html))