What feats would you pick for a dragon used as a mount?

[pabelfly]

So, I'm looking for ideas for feats you'd pick for a dragon that's to be used as a mount.

Context: it's not a supermount build, where the mount is optimized to the detriment of the player character atop it. Rather, the character will be relatively self-sufficient without the mount (albeit slightly weaker), and vice versa.

My first thoughts are Draconic Aura and Double Draconic Aura, which give two scaling bonuses that both dragon and rider can both share, but are still perfectly good if the dragon doesn't have their rider. Recover Breath also looks nice for shortening the time it takes to reuse a breath weapon.

Any other ideas or suggestions?

[loky1109]

What size/age/HD dragon you are talking about?

[pabelfly]

What size/age/HD dragon you are talking about?

Well, for me specifically, I picked a Deep Dragon from Drow of the Underdark (young age, Medium size, 12HD + 3LA). However, I thought the question interesting enough to make it a general question in case other people had the same thought in the future and were looking for suggestions.

[Yora]

I think in most situations, a D&D dragon is actually a lot more powerful than the person riding on it. Instead of the dragon being the rider's mount, it really should be the rider assisting the dragon to fight better.
A dragon rider should be like the dragon's familiar.

When the dragon is doing its thing, melee attacks for the rider would be useless. So dragon riders should either be spellcasters or have some very strong ranged attacks. Since the regular damage from arrows is not a lot and probably pretty insignificant compared to the damage the dragon can do, ranged attacks that do some kind of special effects would be much more useful.

A dragon that plans on carrying a rider around should try to find a way to fight that lets the rider do these special ranged or magic attacks, while it still can do a lot of damage itself.
Dragon breaths don't have a very long range compared to bows and many spells. Feats that let the dragon do its own ranged attacks from higher up will make it harder for people on the ground to hit the rider and itself.

[SirNibbles]

A medium sized mount means you must be Small or smaller. Generally, that means weapon damage will be somewhat reduced, so some kind of caster makes the most sense.

[pabelfly]

A medium sized mount means you must be Small or smaller. Generally, that means weapon damage will be somewhat reduced, so some kind of caster makes the most sense.

I'm using the "Mighty Steed" feat from Bestiary of Krynn, p36, which means the dragon counts as one size category larger when determining carry capacity and size of rider. I could have went with a Brown Dragon from Monsters of Faerun (12 HD + 4 LA), which is Large and would save me a feat, but I'm making a Lesser Drow and Deep Purple Dragon just feels better, flavour-wise.

Putting that aside, a volley archer can also be small with little issue: they get most of their damage from static bonuses, rather than the dice of the weapon. Stuff like STR bonuses, Knowledge Devotion, Draconic Aura (Power), Weapon Specialization + Ranged Weapon Master, Collision bow enchant, etc don't really care whether you're Small or Medium.

[Biggus]

Recover Breath also looks nice for shortening the time it takes to reuse a breath weapon.



However, I thought the question interesting enough to make it a general question in case other people had the same thought in the future and were looking for suggestions.

How useful Recover Breath is depends on your level to some extent. It sounds like you're playing at a relatively low level, it's a good choice there. By highish levels I find that combat is usually over in 2-3 rounds so even with Recover Breath you very often don't get to use it more than once per combat, so you're better of getting Maximise Breath and starting off with one big blast instead.

Some feats which are good for dragons in general:

Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack, (Improved) Multiattack, (Improved) Rapidstrike (Drac), Practised Spellcaster (CArc/CDiv), Improved Flight (CAdv), Extend Spell, Rapid Metamagic (CM) and Quicken Spell, Ability Focus if they have a good breath weapon

[Remuko]

How useful Recover Breath is depends on your level to some extent. It sounds like you're playing at a relatively low level, it's a good choice there. By highish levels I find that combat is usually over in 2-3 rounds so even with Recover Breath you very often don't get to use it more than once per combat, so you're better of getting Maximise Breath and starting off with one big blast instead.

Some feats which are good for dragons in general:

Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack, (Improved) Multiattack, (Improved) Rapidstrike (Drac), Practised Spellcaster (CArc/CDiv), Improved Flight (CAdv), Extend Spell, Rapid Metamagic (CM) and Quicken Spell, Ability Focus if they have a good breath weapon

im gonna second improved flight. i looked it up and its maneuverability is apparently poor even at medium size, so this could definitely help.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The Strafing Breath feat (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, IIRC) gives you a lot more mobility and a LOT more coverage for any breath weapons you might have, along with any boosts to flight speed you can get. Basically, you fire your breath at the ground or to the side, or straight up, or wherever else, then you fly in a straight line, extending your breath weapon along the entire length of your movement (up to a double move). That can be a HUGE area, especially if you've got a cone.

If you've got more than just deep dragon in your ancestry (and given how dragons breed with everything, that's not at all far-fetched), how about the Emulate Another feat, from the World of Warcraft: Alliance Player's Guide? That allows you to grab racial abilities from other types of dragons, or even other creatures altogether. Like, what if you've got either a cryo- or pyro-hydra in your backstory and can use its multiple heads and breath weapon by taking Emulate Another twice?

[YellowJohn]

Some highlights from my Uubermount dragon which you might find useful:

Draconic Aura (DM p.16) has already been mentioned; I chose 'Power' (PHBII 13), but there are many options.

Shape Soulmeld (MoI 40) Sphinx Claws (MoI 88) gets you pounce if you can find a way to open your hands chakra - either with a second feat of the Open Least Chakra spell (MoI 102).

Martial Stance (ToB 31): Tactics of the Wolf (ToB 93) gives +1/2 Initiator Level to anyone (including you) flanking foes who you flank. For best results, both mount and rider should have the Double Team feat (DC 95) so that any target you both threaten, you flank.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Just a reminder of something you can easily use at higher levels to save a few HD-based feats. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?400840-List-of-Feat-Granting-Items-Locations-Grafts)

[pabelfly]

To add to the generic list: if you want to spend two feats and ranks in Tumble, Martial Study (Desert Wind) and Martial Stance (Flame's Blessing) can give you a resistance or even immunity to Fire damage, and is especially good for a dragon typically weak to Fire.

[Buufreak]

The Strafing Breath feat

Yup. Great feat. Get a bit up to get maximum width, move full speed for length, and you target somewhere in the ballpark of 40 x 150 feet, or 8 by 30 squares. Given various situations, that can take out an army on a single initiative.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yup. Great feat. Get a bit up to get maximum width, move full speed for length, and you target somewhere in the ballpark of 40 x 150 feet, or 8 by 30 squares. Given various situations, that can take out an army on a single initiative.And even if your breath weapon is "only" a line, you can fly next to the ground and fly parallel to it, firing toward your enemy line. For a Large dragon, that's an 80' x 150 (x 5') space, which is quite nice when going up against a few hundred enemies.

Hell for the DM, though, especially if you have a negative level rider attached to it...

[Troacctid]

Craft Wondrous Item. All dragons have a caster level for their spell-like and supernatural abilities, so they can qualify for item creation feats to help your party save money on gear.

[Rebel7284]

Improved Unarmed Strike could be nifty, giving the dragon 3 more attacks for one feat.

Metabreath feats are indeed very good, but also, Entangling Exhilation can be a good way to turn the breath weapon into a battlefield control effect.

[Biggus]

Improved Unarmed Strike could be nifty, giving the dragon 3 more attacks for one feat.


How do you work that out? I'd don't see how it gives them any more attacks.

[tyckspoon]

How do you work that out? I'd don't see how it gives them any more attacks.

It gives them a 'weapon' that can make BAB-derived attacks, and as dragons tend to have inflated HD and a commensurately high BAB that will usually be three or four attacks. Turns all of their natural weapons into secondary attacks, but that's not a huge loss since I assume nearly all dragons are taking Multiattack anyways.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It gives them a 'weapon' that can make BAB-derived attacks, and as dragons tend to have inflated HD and a commensurately high BAB that will usually be three or four attacks. Turns all of their natural weapons into secondary attacks, but that's not a huge loss since I assume nearly all dragons are taking Multiattack anyways.Normally, you'd lose the natural attack(s) from whatever limb(s) you're using for IUS, but dragons have so many limbs, and unless they're raking, they can use their back feet for it.

Also, IUS makes Beast Strike quite a nice pick if you're going for damage, as you add your claw damage to your unarmed strike damage, not your BASE claw damage, meaning you can add your Str bonus multiple times, as well as any bonus damage you've got.

[Biggus]

It gives them a 'weapon' that can make BAB-derived attacks

I've just reread the feat text and I don't see anything that says that or anything similar. How are you reaching that conclusion?

[tyckspoon]

I've just reread the feat text and I don't see anything that says that or anything similar. How are you reaching that conclusion?



Light
A light weapon is easier to use in oneÂ’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielderÂ’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if itÂ’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielderÂ’s Strength bonus if itÂ’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielderÂ’s primary hand only.



Unarmed Strike
A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike.

It would be more accurate to say that taking Improved Unarmed Strike would allow a dragon to use its unarmed strike effectively rather than it gaining it as an additional weapon. Every creature -has- an unarmed strike as an available weapon, but since it doesn't threaten and can't do real damage it is generally not considered worth trying to use; Improved Unarmed Strike makes it count as a weapon so it can threaten and do lethal damage.

If your question is about how it gives them access to BAB-based iterative attacks, that's.. just how using a weapon + natural weapons together works, there's nothing particularly special to Unarmed Strike there.

[pabelfly]

I'm not seeing how taking Improved Unarmed Strike gives extra attacks. You'd take Rapidstrike for that.

Now, there is a line in the Monk's ability for Unarmed Strike that says: "A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons" and I'd agree that this line lets you do multiple attacks from BAB increases with natural weapons. Perhaps this was what was meant?

[loky1109]

I've just reread the feat text and I don't see anything that says that or anything similar. How are you reaching that conclusion?

Actually, IUS doesn't give you extra attacks, you already have them. You just don't need to pay AoO for them.

[Saintheart]

I'm not seeing how taking Improved Unarmed Strike gives extra attacks. You'd take Rapidstrike for that.

Now, there is a line in the Monk's ability for Unarmed Strike that says: "A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons" and I'd agree that this line lets you do multiple attacks from BAB increases with natural weapons. Perhaps this was what was meant?

It's due to BAB, especially on bigger dragons, combined with the rules surrounding what happens when you put natural weapons together with manufactured weapons or unarmed attacks.

An unarmed attack - whether the monk's Unarmed Strike or any commoner's 1d3 unarmed attack - is not a natural weapon. It's basically the same as a "manufactured" weapon, with some adjustments - you suck up an AoO to use it, and it doesn't threaten any squares, if you want to fix that you take IUS which allows you to avoid AoOs and indeed dish them out since you threaten squares.

Natural weapons are things like the dragon's bite, claws, sting, tail sweep, etc. These, natural weapons, don't get iteratives from high BAB. I suspect the reason that rule was baked in was because the designers probably thought the damage dice on most monsters' primary natural weapons was sufficient to be a threat, without adding that damage into iteratives. Or that certain monsters got a number of natural attacks out of line with normal BAB accumulation - e.g. the manticore or the hydra. If the rule had been otherwise, arguably the adult red dragon would get iteratives for every natural weapon they have, which would be just way out of balance.

Thus the standard Large, adult red dragon which gets the following sequence of natural weapons at the following BAB: Bite +21/Claw +16/Claw +16/Wing +16/Wing +16/Tail +16. First natural weapon is the primary and gets full BAB, all the others are secondary and all get the same -5 penalty.

When combining manufactured weapons and natural weapons, the full attack sequence is: take all your manufactured weapon iteratives, then all attacks from your natural weapons at -5 off the highest BAB. But if using the manufactured weapon locks out one of those natural attacks, you obviously can't use that natural weapon in the same full attack.

A dragon with a +21 BAB (say, the adult red dragon), if it was wielding a dagger, gets:
Dagger +21/dagger +16/dagger +11/dagger +6/Bite +16/Claw +16/Wing +16/Wing +16/Tail +16**. 3 more attacks than with just natural weapons. And that's just omitting one of the claw attacks on the assumption the hand with that claw is wielding the dagger.

Rapidstrike on the same dragon gives it one additional natural attack: an extra claw or wing attack, since you only get one additional attack out of a pair of natural weapons. Thus, Bite/Claw/Claw/Claw/Wing/Wing/Tail. Still less than taking a manufactured weapon.

Improved Rapidstrike makes it an absolute maximum of four extra natural attacks. Thus, Bite/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Wing/Wing/Tail. Same number of attacks as you'd have gotten from wielding a manufactured weapon.

Of course, creatures of the dragon type have no weapon proficiency - except with their natural weapons. You can't just give the dragon a dagger, or even a spiked chain, all its attacks with that weapon are then at -4 (and for the spiked chain there's an argument that you lock out the claw attacks entirely because it's a two-handed weapon, let alone whether having the dagger locks out a claw attack. Or whether the dragon's actually got limbs to manipulate hand weapons at all.)

Improved Unarmed Strike simplifies the issue because the dragon's unarmed strike can be made with any part of its body in full iterative sequences, with all the natural weapons tagging along. You don't lose any natural attacks because an unarmed attack can be made with any part of the body ("Headbutt of Doom!") You can't be disarmed of an unarmed strike. It's treated as lethal damage and you aren't attracting AoOs to use it. You might only be doing small damage dice, but it's the STR bonus to damage we care about, and the damage dice you'd be picking up from Rapidstrike or Improved Rapidstrike usually are on natural weapons only doing d4s or d6s anyway.

This dragon with Improved Unarmed Strike (let's say administered via a Headbutt of Doom) would have a full attack sequence of Headbutt +21/Headbutt +16/Headbutt +11/Headbutt +6/Bite +16/Claw +16/Claw +16/Wing +16/Wing +16/Tail +16. "Hey, this dragon gets more attacks than the dagger-armed one does!" Yep: because both of its clawed hands are freed up, one isn't holding a weapon. Or so you'd argue to your DM.

As said, a similar trick applies if you just give the dragon a Weapon Proficiency feat, but as demonstrated above IUS is arguably the most 'efficient' since it doesn't introduce the risk of being disarmed, doesn't add the complexity of damage dice for sized weapons into it, and doesn't introduce the question of how the dragon is wielding a spear when it has no 'arms' ... but mainly it just avoids the hilarity of an iconic firebreathing dragon shivving you with a dagger before then trying to claw you or wingbeat you to death.

This isn't to say IUS is always to be preferred in order to pick up additional attacks: situations vary, especially where you're dealing with younger dragons or your attack strategy is more about a limited number of accurate attacks which impose massive damage and less about attack spam. In particular note that unarmed strikes are by definition light weapons, which means they cannot benefit from Power Attack although they can certainly be nerfed by it. Multiattack, for example, turns our bog-standard dragon's BAB into Bite +21/Claw +19/Claw +19/Wing +19/Wing +19/Tail +19. Which might well be enough if you have a big STR and want to use Power Attack.



** "Shouldn't this dragon also get one more Dagger attack at +1 if he starts with a BAB +21?" Well, no: as others note below, there's another rule from WOTC that says the maximum number of attacks any creature can get from BAB is 4. So our dagger-wielding dragon who I am naming Ezio, because fortunately WOTC did not include band-aid rules on naming dragons, has 3 more attacks than the dragon gets via natural weapons, and the same total number of attacks said dragon would get with Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike (albeit it could still get Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike and they'd accumulate attacks on those coming from BAB alone.)

Why would WOTC cap the number of BAB-based attacks at 4? Presumably for similar reasons as they stopped natural weapons from benefiting from iterative attacks: balance and some miseracordia for people having to calculate them.

[Rebel7284]

In particular note that unarmed strikes are by definition light weapons, which means they cannot benefit from Power Attack although they can certainly be nerfed by it.

Note that power attack DOES specifically work with unarmed strikes.



Power Attack
<snip>
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

[Saintheart]

Edited. Sigh.

[loky1109]

When combining manufactured weapons and natural weapons, the sequence is: take all your manufactured weapon iteratives, then have one attack each from your natural weapons at -5. Which means you only get one claw attack out of a pair, and one wing attack out of a pair of wings.
I don't understand from where you took that part.

[Saintheart]

I don't understand from where you took that part.

TBH, looking at it, neither do I on reflection.

I think I gummed some stuff together including that Rapidstrike only lets you get +1 attack out of a pair of natural weapons:


Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. ...

and


When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action

I think I've gummed them together for the interpretation that a secondary natural attack involving a pair of natural weapons together only gets you one of them when combined with a manufactured weapon, but I honestly cannot see where I got that idea as a general rule. I think if you're whacking something with a sword in a full attack, then you can't access the claws on the hand holding that sword in the full attack, so you'd get one claw attack locked out, but the rest of it I just dunno, it's midweek and my own writing makes no sense anymore. I will go back, sigh deeper, and edit.

[Remuko]

A dragon with a +21 BAB (say, the adult red dragon), if it was wielding a dagger, gets:
Dagger +21/dagger +16/dagger +11/dagger +6/dagger +1/Bite +16/Claw +16/Wing +16/Wing +16/Tail +16. 4 more attacks than with just natural weapons, and at least 1 more attack at the same BAB (+16). And that's just omitting one of the claw attacks on the assumption the hand with that claw is wielding the dagger.

I'm surprised I didn't see anyone address this but I'm fairly certain the rules cap iteratives at 4, even for monsters who can get more than 20 BAB (characters with classes end up with epic attack bonus rather than 21 or more BAB). So I think that last Dagger attack shouldn't be there.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm surprised I didn't see anyone address this but I'm fairly certain the rules cap iteratives at 4, even for monsters who can get more than 20 BAB (characters with classes end up with epic attack bonus rather than 21 or more BAB). So I think that last Dagger attack shouldn't be there.BAB from RHD is not capped in epic, although the number of attacks any creature can gain from them is still capped at 4 (not including TWF attacks, Snap Kick, AoOs, etc).

So the dragon should have 21 BAB at 21 HD but only 4 dagger attacks.

[Saintheart]

Deepest sigh.

[Anthrowhale]

Gloves of Man (42k gp) or a mouthpick weapon(+1 enhancement) are good ways to give iteratives to a dragon. They don't cost a feat, and the dragon can wield a magic weapon.

In terms of feats. I like Double Team on a mount if either the mount or you have sneak attack. You can also get some good mileage from Allied Defense at times.

For flying creatures with bad maneuverability Hover is nice. It's like perfect maneuverability at half speed.

[Remuko]

BAB from RHD is not capped in epic, although the number of attacks any creature can gain from them is still capped at 4 (not including TWF attacks, Snap Kick, AoOs, etc).

So the dragon should have 21 BAB at 21 HD but only 4 dagger attacks.

correct, that is what i said.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Are there any ways to infuse spells into one's breath weapon(s)?

[Rebel7284]

Gloves of Man (42k gp) or a mouthpick weapon(+1 enhancement) are good ways to give iteratives to a dragon. They don't cost a feat, and the dragon can wield a magic weapon.


Well isn't the whole point of this to NOT save a feat, but rather to use it effectively? Yes, both gloves of man and mouthpick weapon can give a dragon iterative attacks. However, both remove a natural attack in exchange (claws or bite) and it's unclear if the dragon would be able to use its breath weapon without dropping the mouthpick weapon.

In addition, Unarmed Strike has some additional synergy with natural weapons since it counts as both a natural AND manufactured weapon and thus can be improved by effects that improve all natural weapons, for example. (or is this a monk-only thing? D&D is strange....)


Are there any ways to infuse spells into one's breath weapon(s)?

Spell Compendium has some spells that add effects to a breath weapon. While they are okay if you persist a few of them, they're notably hard to use on a dragon that's too young to have ANY spellcasting.

I don't recall of any way to add arbitrary spells to a breath weapon. At least outside of Craft Contingent Spell + Breath weapon trigger.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

In addition, Unarmed Strike has some additional synergy with natural weapons since it counts as both a natural AND manufactured weapon and thus can be improved by effects that improve all natural weapons, for example. (or is this a monk-only thing? D&D is strange....)Only the monk's unarmed strike (and anything based directly on it, such as the unarmed swordsage) counts as both a manufactured and a natural weapon when beneficial. Improved Unarmed Strike (or just the regular, non-Improved version) is treated as a manufactured weapon for how it's used (mainly BAB iteratives and TWF), but as a natural weapon for things that affect it, such as Improved Natural Attack or magic fang.

Yes, unarmed strikes are a bit wonky, given that they don't get the monk rider (which would make things much easier for adjudication).

[rel]

From memory (I'm away from books right now), the rules call out a limb being used to make a manufactured attack not being available to make a natural attack.

That's the major advantage of the monk unarmed strike; It can be made with any body part not just a limb, so you can make a full natural attack routine in addition to your unarmed strike iteratives. Or wield a two handed weapon and two weapon fight with it and your unarmed strike.