OOTS #1295 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Tubercular Ox]

Does this mean Sunny's drawing of a Snarl (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1257.html) is going to come up, too?

Super kudos to KorvinStarmast and No good @ names (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939630&postcount=177)

I'm really impressed with the logistics of getting everyone back on the walkway, but that effort makes me wonder: Did O-Chul and Lien make it?

[KorvinStarmast]

What is not to like?
(Yay me, I called it, red dragon! :smallbiggrin: )

Blackwing...
Cleric buffing: check.
Lens on the floor: check.
Elan "Uh, should we be rolling initiative?"
Serini "Sunny, get back here this instant!"
How to get everyone up there; some by flying, some by ladder.
Serini uses yet another wand. (oops!)
One pissed-off Red Dragon: Check.
Comment on Serini's makeover.
Roy trying to parley.
Not sufficiently servile: Great response.

Sunny's subtle "down low" anti-magic ray with the dragon hovering above it: nice job "DM Rich," the monsters / foes are being smart tactically!

That's putting dragon into Dungeons and Dragons. :smallbiggrin:

[ZhonLord]

DRAGON FIGHT! DRAGON FIGHT!

Dungeons and Dragons indeed! Now we need the right music to accompany it!

I'm thinking day of fate. "Feel it drawing nearer, an endless fear that takes you whole ~"

[hamishspence]

Interesting that when there's multiple speech bubbles, the shading's different in each one - an indication that there's one basic "shaded background" for the bubbles as a whole with all the bubbles superimposed on it.

So the topmost bubble is mostly red, and the lowermost bubble is mostly yellow.

[Tubercular Ox]

Sunny's subtle "down low" anti-magic ray with the dragon hovering above it: nice job "DM Rich," the monsters / foes are being smart tactically!

I thought Sunny was trying to cancel the circle. I mean, if it was just a stasis trap it was already gone, right? But I assumed maybe it did more than that because Sunny was canceling it. Yay circular logic.

Also, even the one broken horn is right in Sunny's drawing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1257.html).

[KorvinStarmast]

Interesting that when there's multiple speech bubbles, the shading's different in each one - an indication that there's one basic "shaded background" for the bubbles as a whole with all the bubbles superimposed on it.

So the topmost bubble is mostly red, and the lowermost bubble is mostly yellow.
Dragon fire, dragon talk, seems thematically appropriate. :smallsmile:

I thought Sunny was trying to cancel the circle. I mean, if it was just a stasis trap it was already gone, right? But I assumed maybe it did more than that because Sunny was canceling it. Yay circular logic. Hmm, I think you are right. At first glance it looked to me as though he was shining on Serini (wands) and V but as you mention that, yes, he's got to be cancelling the stasis circle.
I like how Calder introduced himself.
(Wasn't it nice that Rich foreshadowed this with the previous stasis circle?)

[The_Weirdo]

Calder was actually fairly diplomatic to start, considering the circumstances. The OOTS should, during the fight (and since speaking is a free action), raise the point that the world might end; Calder is likely to be willing to fight for a world he can torture the person that captured and shanghaied him in, provided the Order can give him some guarantee he will get to.

[Ruck]

Ooh, a named character! I suspected the mysterious threatening creature was something that was already in the dungeon, but I didn't think we'd get a name.


Does this mean Sunny's drawing of a Snarl (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1257.html) is going to come up, too?

Maybe it already has. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1291.html)

[ZhonLord]

I thought Sunny was trying to cancel the circle. I mean, if it was just a stasis trap it was already gone, right? But I assumed maybe it did more than that because Sunny was canceling it. Yay circular logic.

What it means is that the dragon was smart enough to guide Sunny so that the anti magic doesn't hit him as well, which means Sunny remains charmed/dominated. Anti magic on the dragon could dispel the mind control.

[Tubercular Ox]

Maybe it already has. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1257.html)

You linked the comic I linked, so I'm not sure what you're saying.

[Shining Wrath]

Serini imprisoned an ancient red dragon against their will for decades or centuries. That's the sort of thing that leads to payback of a spectacularly gruesome nature.

And Serini knew what she was running toward and did it anyway to save Sunny. That's motherly love, I guess. Also stupidity.

Now, can Roy talk Calder down? Can Haley? Explaining the situation with the gods and the world might not matter to a notoriously selfish evil creature that has been plotting vengeance for years on end. Assuming the red dragon is stereotypical CE, which Calder might not be.

[The_Weirdo]

Serini imprisoned an ancient red dragon against their will for decades or centuries. That's the sort of thing that leads to payback of a spectacularly gruesome nature.

And Serini knew what she was running toward and did it anyway to save Sunny. That's motherly love, I guess. Also stupidity.

Now, can Roy talk Calder down? Can Haley? Explaining the situation with the gods and the world might not matter to a notoriously selfish evil creature that has been plotting vengeance for years on end. Assuming the red dragon is stereotypical CE, which Calder might not be.

"You can't torture her if the world is undone!"

[Rinazina]

Maybe it already has. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1257.html)

that's a nice flashback, but, does it mean this dragon fight against Serini+the Dwarf, survived, and the Serini captured him again when she was making the dungeon? there should be a nice backstory behind there.

I wonder how many rounds the Paladins are going to lose now..

and I still believe a charmed Sunny can really cause a mess with these eyes. I'm looking at you, T-Rex hiding into a lizard, there is so much space in that room, would be a pity don't use it now :D

[RatedArgh]

How was the statis field initially broken? And since Sunny has previously drawn this dragon I assume it was after it was in the statis field, so how did they previously see it without this very thing happening? And If Sunny already knew the dangers how would he have been negligent enough to break it out?

[WalterTheMighty]

Told y'all it wasn't the Vessel :smallbiggrin:

[Tzardok]

Every dragon of sufficient size counts as a vessel. :smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

Not to worry, they have the world's most successful dragon-slayer with them.

[Tubercular Ox]

Told y'all it wasn't the Vessel :smallbiggrin:

Okay, yes, you win. But in my defense I said from the beginning that I was torn between two ideas. And I'm loving that Rich did tell us this was coming, he just did it quietly, so my worst fears are averted.

[RatElemental]

Bit puzzled how Calder was able to charm Sunny while still needing Sunny to release it from the stasis trap, unless maybe Serini just trapped them in there without stasising them so they'd keep aging and getting stronger? But then what did they eat?

[KorvinStarmast]

Serini imprisoned an {1} ancient red dragon against their will for {2} decades or centuries.
{1} Age cagtegory unknown beyond Old (or older), not sure how 3.5 era dragon age categories and 5e age categories map to each other ...
{2} Decades: gates built by the scribblers starting about 65 years ago...

That's the sort of thing that leads to payback of a spectacularly gruesome nature. Yep.

And Serini knew what she was running toward and did it anyway to save Sunny. That's motherly love, I guess. Yes.

Also stupidity. No.

Now, can Roy talk Calder down? Can Haley? Explaining the situation with the gods and the world might not matter to a notoriously selfish evil creature that has been plotting vengeance for years on end. Assuming the red dragon is stereotypical CE, which Calder might not be. Great questions. Haley's diplomacy skill versus a powerful dragon's charisma and wisdom ... could be an interesting test. And given how pissed off the dragon is, probably a major negative circumstance die modifier on the roll. :smalltongue:

"You can't torture her if the world is undone!" That's the pithy way to get the dragon's attention, but is it sufficiently servile? :smallcool:

How was the statis field initially broken? In terms of dragon being able to mentally command Sunny? I am guessing one of those "trip lines" that this dungeon features - note, that's a guess.

And since Sunny has previously drawn this dragon I assume it was after it was in the statis field, so how did they As I look at the dwarf in the drawing, I get the idea that he's wearing a hard hat so I am thinking that drawing had as its subject placing the dragon in the gate's defenses. Sunny would have drawn it based on Serini telling him a story about it.

And If Sunny already knew the dangers how would he have been negligent enough to break it out? That depends on what else Serini has, or has not, told Sunny.

[FireDrake]

Anyone else have the 2015 OOTS Calendar? February is suddenly looking awfully canon! :smallwink:

[137beth]

:elan: I mean, given what the game this strip is based on is called, it would be really strange if we made it through the final book with no dragons.


I'm quite curious to see how the Order is going to deal with this dragon. I don't think it's going to be by beating them into a pulp.

[Lord Torath]

Serini imprisoned an ancient red dragon against their will for decades or centuries. That's the sort of thing that leads to payback of a spectacularly gruesome nature.Decades. Less than half a century, I believe. (Ninja'd)

Looking at the crayon drawing, it looks like Serini and Kraagor fought Caldor originally, which means he predates the creation of the gates. Maybe he (she? I don't think gender's been established yet) was subdued 1E style.

Thanks, Rich!

[KorvinStarmast]

Looking at the crayon drawing, it looks like Serini and Kraagor fought Caldor originally, which means he predates the creation of the gates. Maybe he (she? I don't think gender's been established yet) was subdued 1E style.
Ooh, I didn't think about a subdual. Nice call. :smallsmile:

[Tubercular Ox]

Anyone else have the 2015 OOTS Calendar? February is suddenly looking awfully canon! :smallwink:

Kraagor is cutting off his horn, and Rich labeled it, "Subdue Dragon," instead of "Slay Dragon." I'm sold.


Maybe he (she? I don't think gender's been established yet) was subdued 1E style.

Wait, what? What did 1e say about subduing dragons?

[Provengreil]

How was the statis field initially broken? And since Sunny has previously drawn this dragon I assume it was after it was in the statis field, so how did they previously see it without this very thing happening? And If Sunny already knew the dangers how would he have been negligent enough to break it out?

Double layer trap, one to stasis him and one to keep him put maybe? Or perhaps the stasis trap doesn't actually stop them from thinking, and Calder is just a really talented caster with access to still and silent spells?

Notably, the walls here aren't made of magic stone for Sunny to use his eye-as-door trick because he wasn't around when this was made. When did he see Calder to draw him?

[Fyraltari]

The walls in the room look damaged. Seems like Calder has been able to rage at their cage for a while now.

[Provengreil]

Also, can I just comment on how nice the shadows are on the last panel? Rich really has improved so much.

[Lord Torath]

Wait, what? What did 1e say about subduing dragons?If you attack a dragon to subdue it, each hit inflicts no actual damage, but you keep track of how much you would have and call it "subdual" damage. As soon as you've inflicted enough subdual damage, the dragon surrenders. I think there was a % chance each round based on the ratio of subdual damage compared to the dragon's full health. Essentially you prove to the dragon that you could have killed it, but chose not to.

And subdued dragons would serve you only as long as they thought you could repeat the experience. The more powerful they were, the more they'd plot an escape and revenge.

[Amnestic]

"Insufficiently servile. Try again if you live." is impeccable

[Rinazina]

How was the statis field initially broken?

Is it possible that the magic spells or some natural forces escape the barrier that is only supposed to block physical interaction?

Obviously the dragon hasn't been in temporal stasis (has it been creating its own food for decades?) I really wonder how it could be craving something new.

[Tubercular Ox]

When did he see Calder to draw him?

One way to interpret, "Of course I'm not sure! The best path is the one we just left (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1292.html)," is that Serini remembers the best path better because she takes it more often. This implies she visits the dungeon occasionally. So maybe at one point she did a tour with Sunny to check everything, and that is when Sunny saw Calder, then put it together with Serini's stories about Calder.

It's not a super strong theory but we start somewhere.

[Errorname]

Well that's a hell of an entrance, and nice to see a dragon done in the new style. Quite an intimidating presence, although I suspect this might be our Frost Giant fight for the book and would be pretty surprised if this guy stuck around past this fight.


Calder was actually fairly diplomatic to start, considering the circumstances. The OOTS should, during the fight (and since speaking is a free action), raise the point that the world might end; Calder is likely to be willing to fight for a world he can torture the person that captured and shanghaied him in, provided the Order can give him some guarantee he will get to.

I feel like Calder is going to drive a pretty hardline bargaining position.


"Insufficiently servile. Try again if you live." is impeccable

This comic is so good with the dragons, they've all had some real good lines

[KorvinStarmast]

If you attack a dragon to subdue it, each hit inflicts no actual damage, but you keep track of how much you would have and call it "subdual" damage. As soon as you've inflicted enough subdual damage, the dragon surrenders. I think there was a % chance each round based on the ratio of subdual damage compared to the dragon's full health. Essentially you prove to the dragon that you could have killed it, but chose not to.
Yes. I'd quote the 1e DMG, but e copy got corrupted, sadly.

And subdued dragons would serve you only as long as they thought you could repeat the experience. The more powerful they were, the more they'd plot an escape and revenge. Yes, and I seem to recall EGG writing an article about that in either Dragon or SR.

[Kaerou]

Honestly I dont blame the dragon, what Serini did to him is horrifyingly vile. I wouldnt be surprised if he's gone insane being locked in an empty room alone for decades.

[Fyraltari]

If you attack a dragon to subdue it, each hit inflicts no actual damage, but you keep track of how much you would have and call it "subdual" damage. As soon as you've inflicted enough subdual damage, the dragon surrenders. I think there was a % chance each round based on the ratio of subdual damage compared to the dragon's full health. Essentially you prove to the dragon that you could have killed it, but chose not to.

And subdued dragons would serve you only as long as they thought you could repeat the experience. The more powerful they were, the more they'd plot an escape and revenge.

Did that work only with dragons or with other monsters also? Also, does this implies the existence of non-lethal fireballs, acid balsts, and assorted?

[Ruck]

You linked the comic I linked, so I'm not sure what you're saying.

Well, in that case, I'm saying "my phone 'corrected' the URL after I pasted it and I didn't notice." I meant to link this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1291.html).

[Mordar]

When did he see Calder to draw him?

Maybe he got the calendar for a Christmas present?

Great call to all those who suggested dragon!

- M

[Kardwill]

Did that work only with dragons or with other monsters also? Also, does this implies the existence of non-lethal fireballs, acid balsts, and assorted?

IIRC from my old redbox, it was specific to dragons. And it was the setup to a tougher fight than a normal dragonslaying, since a dragon's breath did damages equal to the current HP of the dragon (so, if you tried to subdue a 100hp dragon, its breath did 100 damages every time, since you didn't really damage it with subdual attacks)

[Shining Wrath]

Just by the sheer size of Calder I'm going with "ancient". The dragon is roughly 14 Roys long, which would be about 84 feet. Call it 80 to 100 feet.
Unfortunately I don't have access to the 3.5 SRD right now, but I think that's size category 10 out of 12? Roughly? Big lizard.
Now, if Roy soaks that breath attack and is not only alive but relatively unscathed Calder may decide talking is the better part of valor.

[Psyren]

I'm glad it wasn't the IFCC :smallbiggrin: as I said in the last thread, it just wouldn't have made sense for them to be able to penetrate the superdungeon that deeply given all of Serini's precautions.

Rich's art has leveled up considerably since our last dragon fight!

[Tubercular Ox]

Well, in that case, I'm saying "my phone 'corrected' the URL after I pasted it and I didn't notice." I meant to link this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1291.html).

Oh, thank God. I was worried it was some sort of philosophical comment I was missing out on.

Those are straight lines instead of squiggly, and they don't have eyes. I was asking if we would meet a squiggle monster that was as much like Sunny's drawing as Calder is like his drawing, in a context that implies Sunny could've drawn from reference instead of by description.

I know it seems unlikely, that's what makes the question interesting to me.

[Kantaki]

My, what a arrogant lizard.:smallamused:
But he probably (thinks he) can back it up.

And Roy standing on V's hand is kinda funny.
Bugsby's Fighter carrying hand, I guess?

[Tzardok]

{1} Age cagtegory unknown beyond Old (or older), not sure how 3.5 era dragon age categories and 5e age categories map to each other ...
{2} Decades: gates built by the scribblers starting about 65 years ago...
Yep.


Don't know 5e, but in 3.5, the age categories are like this:

Wyrmling (0-5 years)
Very Young (6-15 years)
Young (16-25 Years)
Juvenile (26-50 years)
Young Adult (51-100 years)
Adult (101-200 years)
Mature Adult (201-400 years)
Old (401-600 years)
Very Old (601-800 years)
Ancient (801-1,000 years)
Wyrm (1,001-1,200 years)
Great Wyrm (>1,200 years)


With an average maximum age for red dragons of 2,500 years.


Just by the sheer size of Calder I'm going with "ancient". The dragon is roughly 14 Roys long, which would be about 84 feet. Call it 80 to 100 feet.
Unfortunately I don't have access to the 3.5 SRD right now, but I think that's size category 10 out of 12? Roughly? Big lizard.

Ancient Red dragons are Gargantuan, that's the second largest size.

Edit: For comparison's sake: The black dragon with the star metal was a Young Adult (large sized), his mother was Ancient (huge sized), and Xykon's zombie dragon was... huge, I guess.

[Lord Torath]

Did that work only with dragons or with other monsters also?No, this was specific to dragons. The DM was free to apply it elsewhere, of course, but that was solely in the realm of House Rules.


Also, does this imply the existence of non-lethal fireballs, acid blasts, and assorted?Provisionally "No." As is common with 'Gygaxian Prose', melee attacks are not explicitly called out as being required for subduing a dragon, but the implication is there, since the weapons are used to 'batter and bruise'. In the example given, all the attacks used to subdue the dragon were melee attacks - the wizard cast no spells and the thief made no ranged attacks. And there is no reference anywhere else about non-lethal use of damaging spells that I've come across.

[gallagher]

What are the odds that the only way to adequately ensure that the party makes it to the gate is to allow this dragon to rip Serini to shreds?

And how will Roy internalize it?

[KorvinStarmast]

I wouldnt be surprised if he's gone insane being locked in an empty room alone for decades. Well, dragons do sleep a lot.

What are the odds that the only way to adequately ensure that the party makes it to the gate is to allow this dragon to rip Serini to shreds? The only way? That does not sound like how Rich writes, TBH.

And how will Roy internalize it? I don't think Roy settles for that unless Serini offers herself up as a sacrifice. You want to lay any wagers on whether or not she would do that?

I love the idea that Sunny's anti magic ray would undo the baleful polymorph on Bloodfeast ... Belkar merely needs to toss it over there.

[bunsen_h]

I thought Sunny was trying to cancel the circle. I mean, if it was just a stasis trap it was already gone, right? But I assumed maybe it did more than that because Sunny was canceling it. Yay circular logic.

It appears to me that Calder was somehow conscious despite the circles, and communicating by telepathy (wavy speech outlines) through the first nine panels. Then Sunny looked down and deactivated the trap, at which point Calder could resume normal speech: "Ohhh, that feels quite good."

[Resileaf]

I am gonna go out on a limb and guess that the stakes have risen too high for someone not to die during this battle.

[Lexible]

I am offering odds on Calder being the red dragon of Reddragonsville, with an embarrassing story for Roy Greenhilt's grandfather.

Who's got quatloos to burn?

[Fish]

Now it is clear why Durkon was made to waste the mass resist spell on acid damage.

If Serini dies here, the Order has to find their way to the Gate without much guidance. If Sunny dies, they lose a potent weapon against Team Evil. Narratively speaking, if both die, then the Order is in full command of its own destiny.

[SlashDash]

I think it's fair to guess that whatever outcome of the fight, it would involve Calder making it possible for team evil to just march inside.

Maybe he smashes the walls or something?






What I find even more puzzling, is how was this going to work in the first place?
If Xykon or any other threat walks into the dungeon, why would Calder fight them? He clearly can talk and either joins the threat or just go away to do his thing.

Why would Serini assume he would actually fight for the sake of the world?

[schmunzel]

I am gonna go out on a limb and guess that the stakes have risen too high for someone not to die during this battle.

Oh my dear Belkar ... Ive come to like you :(

sch

[Faldrath]

I think it's fair to guess that whatever outcome of the fight, it would involve Calder making it possible for team evil to just march inside.

Maybe he smashes the walls or something?






What I find even more puzzling, is how was this going to work in the first place?
If Xykon or any other threat walks into the dungeon, why would Calder fight them? He clearly can talk and either joins the threat or just go away to do his thing.

Why would Serini assume he would actually fight for the sake of the world?

Those are very good points. I'd always assumed that TE would somehow bypass most of the dungeon since it wouldn't be the final climactic battle if they were too weakened/depleted. But your second point is also, well, on point.

[Unoriginal]

Well that's a hell of an entrance

It's such an hell of an entrance that they didn't even move.

They made everyone else run to enter the scene.

[Onyavar]

Oh look.

Trigak, I am your father.

[Resileaf]

Oh my dear Belkar ... Ive come to like you :(

sch

Well, I expect a Belkar fakeout death, but it'll probably be someone else.

[gallagher]

Well, dragons do sleep a lot.
The only way? That does not sound like how Rich writes, TBH.
I don't think Roy settles for that unless Serini offers herself up as a sacrifice. You want to lay any wagers on whether or not she would do that?

I love the idea that Sunny's anti magic ray would undo the baleful polymorph on Bloodfeast ... Belkar merely needs to toss it over there.

Nah to the wager, I was merely wondering if anyone else had a foreboding feeling that the fastest solution - let the dragon have it's revenge and keep the pace up to the end goal - is a plausible solution. And how others would react to the tough decision.

In a sense, sacrificing someone in the party to ensure the security of this very specific gate is within the genre. I would love to see Bloodfeast make his dramatic re-appearance. Fill up the space with natural attacks!

[St Fan]

Yup, Roy clearly has no clue how to address a powerful evil dragon. Guess that wasn't a subject at Fighter College.

Whatever you'd want of him, you always START with the heavy flattery and groveling. Especially the groveling.

Roy might think he sounded reasonable, but you never speak to such a dragon as if an equal. "Cowardly sycophantic" is the legal minimum.

[Unoriginal]

What I find even more puzzling, is how was this going to work in the first place?
If Xykon or any other threat walks into the dungeon, why would Calder fight them? He clearly can talk and either joins the threat or just go away to do his thing.

Why would Serini assume he would actually fight for the sake of the world?

Calder just demonstrated they would attempt murder on people just for being insufficiently servile.

If anyone made it to this point in the Final Dungeon, it is unlikely they would be sufficiently servile for the dragon's ego, assuming they're not already in the mood to just kill everything that moves after more than a dozen or more encounters designated to be painful, annoying and difficult to avoid.

So yeah, odds are both the dragon and whichever party would awake them would be ready to kill each other unless the party had someone wise enough to see the issue and someone charismatic enough to convince everyone else (Calder included) to not fight.


Also, keep in mind that Serini's actual plan when she built that dungeon was "slow down whoever is advancing until she could convince her old teammates to show up and deal with them alongside her", so even if Calder was convinced to help the intruders Serini could use "remember that red dragon Kraagor subdued? Well they're working for the intruders who are making their way to the Gate right now" as an argument to convince them.

[Tyrrell]

I did not expect the introduction of a new character at this point. I often think about the big list of plots to be resolved in this book that Rich wrote in the print version of Utterly Dwarfed. I believe that he's got it all plotted out, but still, what are you up to? You absolute madman!

[doctor23]

What's the betting on:

IFCC takes V out at a critical point which causes the deaths of both Serini and Sunny?

[bengator]

No, this was specific to dragons. The DM was free to apply it elsewhere, of course, but that was solely in the realm of House Rules.

Provisionally "No." As is common with 'Gygaxian Prose', melee attacks are not explicitly called out as being required for subduing a dragon, but the implication is there, since the weapons are used to 'batter and bruise'. In the example given, all the attacks used to subdue the dragon were melee attacks - the wizard cast no spells and the thief made no ranged attacks. And there is no reference anywhere else about non-lethal use of damaging spells that I've come across.

As a 1e DM, I would allow bludgeoning spell damage (Bixby's hand spells, spiritual hammer, etc.) that acted as the equivalent of bludgeoning weapons. But you also had to use the flat of your sword, etc. to not allow for stabbing, etc. That made it very difficult to do and took a lot of time unless you had a particularly strong fighter with good damage bonuses.

The strict rules allowed for you to do that to people, but not other monsters for some reason. But yes, House Rules as to everything else!

[Tubercular Ox]

I did not expect the introduction of a new character at this point. I often think about the big list of plots to be resolved in this book that Rich wrote in the print version of Utterly Dwarfed. I believe that he's got it all plotted out, but still, what are you up to? You absolute madman!

Amen! I think about this all the time. Happy to meet you.

I figure he's going to tie in to one of the other subplots eventually, I'd be really sad if he's just one step above a random encounter.

Like, he's probably needed to do something that none of the party, team evil, the IFCC, or whatever's behind the gate can reasonably do.

Maybe it's his job to want people dead. Most sides here have multiple objectives. Team Evil just wants the gate, the IFCC wants to keep the conflict going, the party is trying to court The Dark One. So maybe whatever's behind the gate wasn't sufficiently threatening for the role?


It appears to me that Calder was somehow conscious despite the circles, and communicating by telepathy (wavy speech outlines) through the first nine panels. Then Sunny looked down and deactivated the trap, at which point Calder could resume normal speech: "Ohhh, that feels quite good."

Bam. Thank you!

[bunsen_h]

Interesting that when there's multiple speech bubbles, the shading's different in each one - an indication that there's one basic "shaded background" for the bubbles as a whole with all the bubbles superimposed on it.

So the topmost bubble is mostly red, and the lowermost bubble is mostly yellow.

Though it isn't like that in the last panel.


I love the idea that Sunny's anti magic ray would undo the baleful polymorph on Bloodfeast ... Belkar merely needs to toss it over there.

Would the anti-magic ray permanently cancel the polymorph? Or merely suppress it while Bloodfeast was within the area of effect?


What's the betting on:

IFCC takes V out at a critical point which causes the deaths of both Serini and Sunny?

It's not outside the realm of possibility that the IFCC would use one of their two remaining slots to nick V at this point, in order to protect V and their "investment".

[gatemansgc]

Does this mean Sunny's drawing of a Snarl (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1257.html) is going to come up, too?

Super kudos to KorvinStarmast and No good @ names (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939630&postcount=177)

I'm really impressed with the logistics of getting everyone back on the walkway, but that effort makes me wonder: Did O-Chul and Lien make it?

omg i forgot about sunny drawing a dragon! nice catch, no good @ names!

[Tzardok]

Would the anti-magic ray permanently cancel the polymorph? Or merely suppress it while Bloodfeast was within the area of effect?


Suppress. (Also, it's a cone, not a ray.)

[Emperor Time]

I guess Calder is an Ancient Red Dragon and if accurate, I wonder how difficult it will be for the party if they must fight him to the death?

[bunsen_h]

Freeing Sunny from the Charm might allow the magic circles to be reinstated, rendering Calder much less dangerous. Unless he leaves the circles, of course.


I am going to torture and kill that halfling in spectacularly gruesome fashion

Given Serini's part-troll body, that could mean more or less indefinitely torturing her. Unless Calder uses fire (or acid) on her, of course.

[Bubble]

I thought that dragon looked familiar :)

{scrubbed}

[The MunchKING]

Honestly I dont blame the dragon, what Serini did to him is horrifyingly vile. I wouldnt be surprised if he's gone insane being locked in an empty room alone for decades.

I mean, he's SUPPOSED to be in Stasis, so he wouldn't really know about the passage of time and go crazy.


What are the odds that the only way to adequately ensure that the party makes it to the gate is to allow this dragon to rip Serini to shreds?

And how will Roy internalize it?

I mean, even in the binary of "We fight now, two groups enter one group leaves" hack and slash, there's always killing the dragon before it kills you. Not even close to all the options when negotiating is on the table.



I love the idea that Sunny's anti magic ray would undo the baleful polymorph on Bloodfeast ... Belkar merely needs to toss it over there.

Allosaurus (Or Even T-Rex) vs. a Great Wyrm Red Dragon? I'm pretty sure that's just giving Calder a full belly to torture Sereni without worrying about stopping on. :D


It appears to me that Calder was somehow conscious despite the circles, and communicating by telepathy (wavy speech outlines) through the first nine panels. Then Sunny looked down and deactivated the trap, at which point Calder could resume normal speech: "Ohhh, that feels quite good."

I'm thinking there are magic wards to keep Calder in the zone until they could get a stasis spell on him, so the stasis broke, but the wards keeping him in didn't. So he was perceiving time for a while now, and now Sunny let him out.



I am gonna go out on a limb and guess that the stakes have risen too high for someone not to die during this battle.

Meh, he's an out-of-nowhere fight with no cinematic build up. I'd say (narratively) the stakes are actually pretty low.


What I find even more puzzling, is how was this going to work in the first place?
If Xykon or any other threat walks into the dungeon, why would Calder fight them? He clearly can talk and either joins the threat or just go away to do his thing.

Because Xykon (and presumably most other people Epic enough to get this far), don't DO "Servile". A Great Wyrm Demands Xykon be his flunky, Xykon's going to blast it, and then you've got your Lich vs. Dragon fight.


Would the anti-magic ray permanently cancel the polymorph? Or merely suppress it while Bloodfeast was within the area of effect?

The latter, AFAIK.


It's not outside the realm of possibility that the IFCC would use one of their two remaining slots to nick V at this point, in order to protect V and their "investment".

EVERYTIME someone posits that, I have to point out they've never done that before, even in the several times V was close to dying. They just shrugged and said it would be a waste if the elf dies. They aren't pulling V to save her, they are doing it to advance their Evil goals.


Roy might think he sounded reasonable, but you never speak to such a dragon as if an equal. "Cowardly sycophantic" is the legal minimum.

Not an EVIL one anyway. Good dragons are more willing to put up with that if you actually ARE their equal in some way they recognize.

[Tuwr]

Belkar's surprise weapon/pet would grow to almost dragon size if it happened to be thrown into an antimagic field, right?

[schmunzel]

Freeing Sunny from the Charm might allow the magic circles to be reinstated, rendering Calder much less dangerous. Unless he leaves the circles, of course.


snip...

Or whoever else is in it ...

sch

[KorvinStarmast]

I think it's fair to guess that whatever outcome of the fight, it would involve Calder making it possible for team evil to just march inside. I am going with Old or Very Old dragon as my best guess. I would need to do a little more SRD diving to see what I can derive from that. Something I like to keep in the back of my mind is that Serini didn't know what a given "gate invader" party was going to look like, so they tried to cover all bases.
A core planning assumption was that her gate would slow down the invaders long enough for her to get her epic buddies to reinforce the gate's "static defenses" - a planning assumption that has been shown to be insufficient.

If Xykon or any other threat walks into the dungeon, why would Calder fight them? He clearly can talk and either joins the threat or just go away to do his thing. I think that Xykon (or maybe Red Cloak) pointed out that being Evil may still result in folks being his enemy. (Was that in SOD?)
It's probably the nature of the stasis trap: whomever first shows up gets all those years of frustration in their face.
I read a story about 50-55 years ago about a fisherman on a beach in Arabia who finds a lamp and rubs it. A genie comes out and instead of granting wishes, the Genie tells the fisherman the following:
"Thou has freed me, now thou must die"
The story was the intro to (or a fable abut?) nuclear energy/nuclear bombs and their now being a fact that won't go away. It's where I first learned the term "The genie isn't going back into the bottle."

Why would Serini assume he would actually fight for the sake of the world? Because the dragon exists in this world, but honestly she has said that this was before she got willing volunteers, so maybe he got shanghai'd like a drunken sailor?

It's such an hell of an entrance that they didn't even move. They made everyone else run to enter the scene. Yeah. Dragons are (or can be) that awesome, in general. :smallsmile:

In a sense, sacrificing someone in the party to ensure the security of this very specific gate is within the genre. Yes.
I would love to see Bloodfeast make his dramatic re-appearance. Fill up the space with natural attacks! Chekov's allosaurus. :smallbiggrin:

Though it isn't like that in the last panel.
Would the anti-magic ray permanently cancel the polymorph? Or merely suppress it while Bloodfeast was within the area of effect? Good question, and I am not quite 3.x savvy enough to answer it. SRD here I come ... but my instinct is that it would only disrupt it as long as they eye cone was on Bloodfeast.

[Korith]

Look, it's a Flying Dragon (Calder) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Dragon_(Calder))!

[Ruck]

Oh, thank God. I was worried it was some sort of philosophical comment I was missing out on.

Those are straight lines instead of squiggly, and they don't have eyes. I was asking if we would meet a squiggle monster that was as much like Sunny's drawing as Calder is like his drawing, in a context that implies Sunny could've drawn from reference instead of by description.

I know it seems unlikely, that's what makes the question interesting to me.

Ah, now that I've looked at the drawing closer, I see the point about the tangles in it. On the other hand, the red dragon in Sunny's drawing is fighting Kraagor and someone else, which is not something Sunny would have seen. So I don't think we can draw too many conclusions from those drawings.

[Adeptus]

New comic is up.

Amazing double page Giant! Holy crap!

[ti'esar]

Well, it's about time this Dungeons and Dragons comic had a proper badass dragon again. Loved the Empress of Blood but this is a lot more fitting for the last book.

[brian 333]

Congrats to those who guessed red dragon!

But we all know that this one is Redcloak's Niece who went back in time and was polymorphed into a dragon.

I am noticing that Vaarsuvius assisted Belkar and his animal companions rather than, say, Durkon. I am wondering if this is an encumbrance issue, or if there is another, more logical, reason for the choice?

[Tzardok]

I read a story about 50-55 years ago about a fisherman on a beach in Arabia who finds a lamp and rubs it. A genie comes out and instead of granting wishes, the Genie tells the fisherman the following:
"Thou has freed me, now thou must die"
The story was the intro to (or a fable abut?) nuclear energy/nuclear bombs and their now being a fact that won't go away. It's where I first learned the term "The genie isn't going back into the bottle."


Must be a newer adaptation, because when I hear about "The Fisherman and the Genie", I think about the version from Arabian Nights, where the Fisherman manages to trick the genie back into the bottle by playing on his pride; he tells the genie he can't believe that the genie could actually make himself small enough to fit into the bottle.

[tyckspoon]

Congrats to those who guessed red dragon!

But we all know that this one is Redcloak's Niece who went back in time and was polymorphed into a dragon.

I am noticing that Vaarsuvius assisted Belkar and his animal companions rather than, say, Durkon. I am wondering if this is an encumbrance issue, or if there is another, more logical, reason for the choice?

Most likely just encumbrance issue, if you want to interpret it by rules. Belkar and his assorted companions are relatively light (Belkar claims to weigh 'less than 30 pounds' https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html way back when) - Belkar and all his stuff probably weighs about as much as Durkon's armor alone, and is probably already very close to V's maximum carry capacity. V would simply be unable to lift Durkon without further magical aid.

[Somniloquist]

Congrats to those who guessed red dragon!

I am noticing that Vaarsuvius assisted Belkar and his animal companions rather than, say, Durkon. I am wondering if this is an encumbrance issue, or if there is another, more logical, reason for the choice?

Bugsby's Cat Retrieving Hand only works on cats and their human companions, obviously.

[Thecommander236]

Bro really said "you aren't begging me hard enough".

[Resileaf]

Meh, he's an out-of-nowhere fight with no cinematic build up. I'd say (narratively) the stakes are actually pretty low.

There is nothing low stakes about dragons.

[Somniloquist]

There is nothing low stakes about dragons.

Physical stakes, sure. Emotional stakes, less so, since we don't really know this guy.

[Xirdus]

Calder just demonstrated they would attempt murder on people just for being insufficiently servile.

You're taking it too literally IMO. It's just a cool one liner.

[Jason]

The 1st edition rules don't say you can't use spells to subdue a dragon, but the example in the Monster Manual pretty obviously only involves melee attacks, even though one of the player characters involved is a magic-user.

[brian 333]

The 1st edition rules don't say you can't use spells to subdue a dragon, but the example in the Monster Manual pretty obviously only involves melee attacks, even though one of the player characters involved is a magic-user.

The rule is that any actual damage negates the subdual attempt. Spells that inflict damage which cannot be considered non-lethal, (inflict wounds, fireball, etc.) cannot be used to subdue.

[The MunchKING]

There is nothing low stakes about dragons.

That's why I added "narratively". Yeah old dragons are big and threatening, but the Order are high level PCs, and the main characters of the story. They don't just die to "random monster out of nowhere", they die at the culmination (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) of a climactic encounter (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html) with a major part of their story (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.html). Or something. If they had some generic NPCs, those guys might bite it to show how serious these defenses are, but as they are out, they've just got to suck it up and win without any deaths. :smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

Physical stakes, sure. Emotional stakes, less so, since we don't really know this guy. Yummm. Dragon steaks. :smallsmile:

The rule is that any actual damage negates the subdual attempt. Spells that inflict damage which cannot be considered non-lethal, (inflict wounds, fireball, etc.) cannot be used to subdue. Which edition are you referring to? Page number, and book, please. (what you say vaguely rings a bell (about undoing subdual) but for some reason I think that was in the 2e coverage ... but it's possible that I have my DMG memory mixed up).

I don't recall that from the original game (in terms of the specificity) but that's how we played it anyway.

[Shining Wrath]

Yes, in 1e you could pummel a dragon into submission. One of the advantages of doing so, per the rules, was to make the dragon point out the best bits of the treasure hoard, because the dragon would have a fair idea of the market value. And then you've got a majestic animal companion right up to the battle where you are really having a hard time and really need your dragon to help you, at which point it breath weapons you and flies away.

I'm going to guess that Elan is going to grab Sunny's eye covering and try to put it back in place. And that may result in being trapped inside the stasis bubble with Calder. Or if this is how Belkar exits the story, Belkar grabs the eye covering and winds up trapped in stasis. Which might work story-wise; he's not dead, he's just trapped.

[Reach Weapon]

On the other hand, the red dragon in Sunny's drawing is fighting Kraagor and someone else, which is not something Sunny would have seen. So I don't think we can draw too many conclusions from those drawings.
Based on the hair (head and feet(?)) a strong case can be made that's Serini, at which point Sunny would be very familiar with the details from the story they're depicting. While drawing too many conclusions seems to be one of the main purposes for this forum, I don't think speculation based on details in those pictures is necessarily unreliable.

[Raven777]

What are the odds that the only way to adequately ensure that the party makes it to the gate is to allow this dragon to rip Serini to shreds?

And how will Roy internalize it?

This is not the Giant's style.

[gatemansgc]

I guess Calder is an Ancient Red Dragon and if accurate, I wonder how difficult it will be for the party if they must fight him to the death?

calder looks about as big as the ancient black dragon that V faced off against, so i'd imagine probably on the same level.

[GMantis]

Just by the sheer size of Calder I'm going with "ancient". The dragon is roughly 14 Roys long, which would be about 84 feet. Call it 80 to 100 feet.
Unfortunately I don't have access to the 3.5 SRD right now, but I think that's size category 10 out of 12? Roughly? Big lizard.
Now, if Roy soaks that breath attack and is not only alive but relatively unscathed Calder may decide talking is the better part of valor.
If the Red Dragon is indeed 84 feet, that would make him Colossal by 3.5 rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm), meaning he could only be a Great Wyrm. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon). Which have a CR of 26, so good luck to our heroes - they're going to need it...

[gatemansgc]

If the Red Dragon is indeed 84 feet, that would make him Colossal by 3.5 rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm), meaning he could only be a Great Wyrm. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon). Which have a CR of 26, so good luck to our heroes - they're going to need it...

oh dang, so stronger than the ancient black dragon

i'm getting the feeling that battling calder is going to break open all the traps that were bypassed making it easier for team evil to go through the final dungeon.

[Psychronia]

This is fine. Definitely.

I'm sure Calder isn't going to want none of this, since the Order of the Stick may in fact have the highest combined K/D record against dragons ever, Gods notwithstanding. I guess it's too much to hope the Greenhilt Greatsword has any secret dragon-slaying bonuses due to its history, but at the very least it was used to cut down two of them.

Jokes aside, while it's a shame that we won't get to see a cool fight between a lich and a dragon, it's probably not the worst thing for the Order to maybe get a last-minute level up in. Though I am also quite interested in how a diplomatic approach is even remotely plausible, this dragon's attitude probably doesn't leave much room for that.

[Fitzclowningham]

I'm going to guess that Elan is going to grab Sunny's eye covering and try to put it back in place. And that may result in being trapped inside the stasis bubble with Calder. Or if this is how Belkar exits the story, Belkar grabs the eye covering and winds up trapped in stasis. Which might work story-wise; he's not dead, he's just trapped.

So, so ninja'd. Calder is not a beatable foe for the OOTS, even with Serini and the Paladins, and diplomacy is too unrealistic to pass the laugh test. My guess is that the conflict here reaches an extreme fever pitch in which the impossibility of victory for our heroes is made terrifyingly obvious only for Belkar to save the day and perish in the process. Prognostication of the particulars: he throws the lens to cover Sunny's central eye, restoring the circle with himself and Calder both inside. In doing so, he'll probably automatically follow some good/noble impulse to cement his redemption.

[Blue Dragon]

Now, can Roy talk Calder down? Can Haley? (…) Assuming the red dragon is stereotypical CE, which Calder might not be.

Certainly not, the two last panels made that pretty clear. I don't see why Calder would not be it.

[Lumus]

Most likely just encumbrance issue, if you want to interpret it by rules. Belkar and his assorted companions are relatively light - Belkar and all his stuff probably weighs about as much as Durkon's armor alone, and is probably already very close to V's maximum carry capacity. V would simply be unable to lift Durkon without further magical aid.

Plus, no offence Minrah, but I'm pretty sure Belkar's animal companions are a lighter carry than Durkon's dwarven companion, and look less silly being hugged through the air by V's passenger.

[The_Weirdo]

This is fine. Definitely.

I'm sure Calder isn't going to want none of this, since the Order of the Stick may in fact have the highest combined K/D record against dragons ever, Gods notwithstanding. I guess it's too much to hope the Greenhilt Greatsword has any secret dragon-slaying bonuses due to its history, but at the very least it was used to cut down two of them.

Jokes aside, while it's a shame that we won't get to see a cool fight between a lich and a dragon, it's probably not the worst thing for the Order to maybe get a last-minute level up in. Though I am also quite interested in how a diplomatic approach is even remotely plausible, this dragon's attitude probably doesn't leave much room for that.

"We are fully willing to let you have your merry way with this person that kidnapped you into slavery if you help us prevent the end of the world, which has all your stuff, including your new chew toy."

In Servile, of course.

[Crusher]

If the Red Dragon is indeed 84 feet, that would make him Colossal by 3.5 rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm), meaning he could only be a Great Wyrm. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon). Which have a CR of 26, so good luck to our heroes - they're going to need it...

It would be, but I just measured it a couple times and I think its more like 10 Roys long, putting it at Gargantuan. Which would mean it could be anywhere from "Old" to "Wyrm", but... c'mon. We all know its an Ancient Red Dragon. CR23.

Which could fairly easily have a CR7 Allosaur for lunch. Bloodfeast is going to go down fast if it goes toe-to-toe with Calder, though it would probably be distracting enough to buy the rest of the party a round or two. Really, the group is a party of 6 15-ish level characters plus an Epic rogue plus a pair of low-teens paladins. Bloodfeast, Mimi, and Minrah are just there in a supporting role.

Edit - Wait, Minrah is level 10?!? That's borderline high priest-territory. Wasn't she introduced as a junior cleric and competent security guard? I wonder if she picked up multiple levels along the way somehow.

[Simbosan]

Wow, stunning panel and the flames and shading are so awesome.

Beautiful stuff.

[Tzardok]

Edit - Wait, Minrah is level 10?!? That's borderline high priest-territory. Wasn't she introduced as a junior cleric and competent security guard? I wonder if she picked up multiple levels along the way somehow.

Don't forget that Minrah started out as a fighter and only later got into clericing.

Edit: Also, she has cast Thor's Might (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1210.html) before. That's a 5th level spell (https://dndtools.one/righteous-might-2865).

[Bird]

Look, it's a Flying Dragon (Calder) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Dragon_(Calder))!
What a great catch. It's the right color, too!

Yup, Roy clearly has no clue how to address a powerful evil dragon. Guess that wasn't a subject at Fighter College.

Whatever you'd want of him, you always START with the heavy flattery and groveling. Especially the groveling.

Roy might think he sounded reasonable, but you never speak to such a dragon as if an equal. "Cowardly sycophantic" is the legal minimum.
Agreed. He should have been less of a Roy and more of a Bilbo.

"No thank you, O Smaug the. Tremendous!" he replied. "I did not come for presents. I only wished to have a look at you and see if you were truly as great as tales say. I did not believe them."
"Do you now?" said the dragon somewhat flattered, even though he did not believe a word of it.
"Truly songs and tales fall utterly short of the reality, O Smaug the Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities," replied Bilbo.
You have nice manners for a thief and a liar," said the dragon.

[Vovix]

Amen! I think about this all the time. Happy to meet you.

I figure he's going to tie in to one of the other subplots eventually, I'd be really sad if he's just one step above a random encounter.

Like, he's probably needed to do something that none of the party, team evil, the IFCC, or whatever's behind the gate can reasonably do.


I think he's going to tie into the Scribblers' backstory, which still hasn't been revealed in full. It seems like Sunny's drawings imply Kraagor fought Calder at some point, meaning he's met the party and might have a history with them beyond "Serini captured a random dragon". Maybe he was even there when the rift was first sealed. Could be a setup for an "Obi-Wan never told you..."-style reveal where he tells the Order (and us) a new side of the story that Soon and Serini have kept secret.

[ratfox]

I did not expect the introduction of a new character at this point. I often think about the big list of plots to be resolved in this book that Rich wrote in the print version of Utterly Dwarfed. I believe that he's got it all plotted out, but still, what are you up to? You absolute madman!

Well, though an adventure may have a random encounter without importance (e.g. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0143.html), I believe we're way too far in the story for that. Ergo, this fight must have a vital importance for the plot, but we'll have to see what it can be.

[KorvinStarmast]

Or if this is how Belkar exits the story, Belkar grabs the eye covering and winds up trapped in stasis. Which might work story-wise; he's not dead, he's just trapped. Does one breathe in a stasis trap?

Bloodfeast ... probably be distracting enough to buy the rest of the party a round or two.
Which may be enough.

I think he's going to tie into the Scribblers' backstory, which still hasn't been revealed in full. It seems like Sunny's drawings imply Kraagor fought Calder at some point, meaning he's met the party and might have a history with them beyond "Serini captured a random dragon". Maybe he was even there when the rift was first sealed. Could be a setup for an "Obi-Wan never told you..."-style reveal where he tells the Order (and us) a new side of the story that Soon and Serini have kept secret. While that would be neat, I think that Calder is currently in a "I am gonna kick some butt!" state of mind. It will take something profound to get him into "parley" state of mind.

[Metastachydium]

Yummm. Dragon steaks. :smallsmile:

No, you're a homophone!! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html)


calder looks about as big as the ancient black dragon that V faced off against, so i'd imagine probably on the same level.

I'm too damn lazy to do actual measurements, so the Colossal thing might as well check out, but if Calder's no larger than ABD, Calder's in fact probably both younger and maybe still more powerful than ABD. Reds are the strongest chromatics; Blacks are the second weakest.

[Tubercular Ox]

Could be a setup for an "Obi-Wan never told you..."-style reveal where he tells the Order (and us) a new side of the story that Soon and Serini have kept secret.

Yes, please!

He's the February Playdrake on the 2015 OOTS calendar, the Scribblers are all subduing him together.

[LadyEowyn]

Huh, it is a red dragon after all. I didn’t think it would be, because the Empress of Blood didn’t have that kind of multi-shade background in her speech balloon (not did other dragons).

Anyway, evidently this monster emphatically does not want to be in the final dungeon.

Oh, and excellent catch about the 2015 calendar, everyone who noticed that! So the Scribblers captured him sometime before sealing all the Rifts, because Kraagor’s there.

Anyway, the dragon seems incredibly arrogant from his last line, so negotiating with him would be an unlikely proposition even if he weren’t pissed as hell.

[Jason]

No way the Belkster is going to be permanently killed by a random red dragon that showed up only a few strips before with no foreshadowing beyond a drawing in Sunny's room.

My prediction is that the Giant felt we needed to see the Order defeating one more iconic D&D monster before the big finale with Xykon and Red Cloak, and nothing is more iconic than an Ancient Red Dragon.

[Tzardok]

Does one breathe in a stasis trap?
.

No. You are frozen in time: Temporal Stasis. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/temporalStasis.htm)

[Tubercular Ox]

No. You are frozen in time: Temporal Stasis. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/temporalStasis.htm)

If bunsen is right that Calder used telepathy until Sunny could deactivate the circle spell underneath him, then maybe it is possible to be in half-stasis where you do not breathe but can still think.

[Shining Wrath]

No way the Belkster is going to be permanently killed by a random red dragon that showed up only a few strips before with no foreshadowing beyond a drawing in Sunny's room.

My prediction is that the Giant felt we needed to see the Order defeating one more iconic D&D monster before the big finale with Xykon and Red Cloak, and nothing is more iconic than an Ancient Red Dragon.

Not killed: frozen in time and they'll come back for him later. If there is a later.
Something that might move the plot forward - if OotS can take a CR 20+ dragon down, Serini may gain confidence they can take Xykon, and act differently.


No. You are frozen in time: Temporal Stasis. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/temporalStasis.htm)

Thanks.

[Liquor Box]

Between Serini and the Dragon, it is Serini who is the villain.

Are there still people who think that Serini is good aligned?

[ManuelSacha]

In the 3rd panel, the dragon says "futher".

Not sure if it has been addressed, yet.

[Resileaf]

You're taking it too literally IMO. It's just a cool one liner.

There is nothing non-murdery about a red dragon's flame breath.

[The_Weirdo]

Huh, it is a red dragon after all. I didn’t think it would be, because the Empress of Blood didn’t have that kind of multi-shade background in her speech balloon (not did other dragons).

Anyway, evidently this monster emphatically does not want to be in the final dungeon.

Oh, and excellent catch about the 2015 calendar, everyone who noticed that! So the Scribblers captured him sometime before sealing all the Rifts, because Kraagor’s there.

Anyway, the dragon seems incredibly arrogant from his last line, so negotiating with him would be an unlikely proposition even if he weren’t pissed as hell.

Any negotiation like that could start off from "We'll give you Serini, but the world needs to exist for you to torture her in".

[Blue Dragon]

Damn, look at Serini's expression - she looks petrified!

[The_Weirdo]

Damn, look at Serini's expression - she looks petrified!

Hey, a fellow Brazilian!

I mean, if I had kept a red dragon captive for decades on end and he was no longer a captive, I'd be pretty terrified as well...

[bunsen_h]

Question: Do trolls heal from fire and acid damage the same way that other creatures do, including the possibility of magical healing? I know that they don't regenerate from those things, unlike how they do from other kinds of damage.


It's probably the nature of the stasis trap: whomever first shows up gets all those years of frustration in their face.
I read a story about 50-55 years ago about a fisherman on a beach in Arabia who finds a lamp and rubs it. A genie comes out and instead of granting wishes, the Genie tells the fisherman the following:
"Thou has freed me, now thou must die"

The version of that that I'm familiar with is along the lines of: "For the first thousand years of my imprisonment, I vowed that I would grant three wishes to the one who freed me. For the second thousand years of my imprisonment, I vowed that I would make my benefactor wealthy. After that, I vowed that I would slay the person who released me."


Don't forget that Minrah started out as a fighter and only later got into clericing.

Edit: Also, she has cast Thor's Might (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1210.html) before. That's a 5th level spell (https://dndtools.one/righteous-might-2865).

It may be that the hammer grants casting bonuses or has special abilities like "wielder may cast Righteous Might up to three times per day".

[Ghosty]

Beautiful art, including the fire.

On that...Ancient Reds are putting out 20d10, and I don't remember anyone putting up any fire resistance. Reflex save, but Haley looks like she's out of the line of...
Anyone else have Greater Evasion? (I didn't see it in the Class/Level tracking thread) I recall a joke two books ago with one of the characters saying something like, "Huh, when did I learn Evasion?"

Without it...that's a lot of pain in-bound. 110 points on average of fire damage is likely killing most of the Order, no? Plus the Save DC is something obscene (36 for Ancient Red Dragons).

Anyway, I saw the comment earlier that it's very unlikely we'd see Roy and the Order go to Calder, "Yeah, you can have her," but what I'm about to say is nearly as cold-blooded: Haley's off to the side, with an unobstructed shot at Sunny, and Sunny's Anti-Magic Eye. Can/would Haley be able to put that Eye out? And, if she did so, the Stasis should turn back on, right? (If not the Suggestion attempts from Calder.)

(Edit, one of the Clerics should have Regeneration, right?)

Just a thought. Love the story.

[The MunchKING]

Does one breathe in a stasis trap?

Well they definitely don't get birthday cakes or to cash out their IRA in one. :smallbiggrin:



Not killed: frozen in time and they'll come back for him later. If there is a later.

The main problem with this, is if they don't thaw him out in the next few weeks, all the prophecies which said EVER with hyphens around (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) are more suspect.

It would work for "won't breathe with in the comic's run", but the only way I could see it being true is if the stasis NEVER drops, or it drops simultaneous with Belkar dying, say from the world being blown up by a Snarl/the Gods. Otherwise he'd breathe again.



Question: Do trolls heal from fire and acid damage the same way that other creatures do, including the possibility of magical healing? I know that they don't regenerate from those things, unlike how they do from other kinds of damage.

I think so...

[Peelee]

Between Serini and the Dragon, it is Serini who is the villain.

Are there still people who think that Serini is good aligned?

I think she's firmly Neutral, but I wouldn't have any issue believing she is Good if that was revealed - after all, taking powerful beings prisoner because you believe it's necessary to save the fabric of the universe is something Good characters can do (https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Miko_Miyazaki) in Stickworld.

Also, apropos of absolutely nothing, but for some time now I have been greatly enjoying that we are seeing just how much more to the her dungeon there is and how brutal it is for crashers, which all shows that she clearly was not just effectively handing Xykon the Gate by letting him try without actively opposing him at a time that he wouldn't even have gotten past the doors thanks to MitD's sabotage.

[Blue Dragon]

I recall a joke two books ago with one of the characters saying something like, "Huh, when did I learn Evasion?"

It was Belkar in strip #469: "Crossbones".

[The_Weirdo]

Anyway, I saw the comment earlier that it's very unlikely we'd see Roy and the Order go to Calder, "Yeah, you can have her," but what I'm about to say is nearly as cold-blooded: Haley's off to the side, with an unobstructed shot at Sunny, and Sunny's Anti-Magic Eye. Can/would Haley be able to put that Eye out? And, if she did so, the Stasis should turn back on, right? (If not the Suggestion attempts from Calder.)

(Edit, one of the Clerics should have Regeneration, right?)

Just a thought. Love the story.

Sunny doesn't deserve the pain. Serini, on the other hand...

[Ghosty]

It was Belkar in strip #469: "Crossbones".

Thanks! (Looks for upvote arrow, sighs.)

I know the Giant sets these up for story qua story reasons, and that 3.5 mechanics don't run things, the story does. That said...with the cone of fire coming hitting that area, as we see it in the last few panels, who reasonably survives that?

Roy likely tanks it. The Bulls Endurance maybe helps Durkon do better than he did vs Helgya's Flame Strike? Minrah?? Elan??? (Assuming he doesn't Evade) How does V survive it? (Also assuming no insta-Forcecage or interposing Bugby Hand deflecting the stream?)

I do also like the mentioned idea of getting backstory from Calder, but it might be difficult if the only way to survive is to shove him/her back into Stasis ASAP.

[Ghosty]

Sunny doesn't deserve the pain. Serini, on the other hand...

"Deserves got nothing to do with it." Not that this is that kind of story.

I dare say Serini would rather have her own eye put out than her child's though. Even if she didn't have Trollish Regeneration...

[The_Weirdo]

"Deserves got nothing to do with it." Not that this is that kind of story.

I dare say Serini would rather have her own eye put out than her child's though. Even if she didn't have Trollish Regeneration...

Ethically, the at the very least deserves to have something bad happen to her, personally, for kidnapping a sentient being as a slave.

Storywise, the Giant has been known to say that he tries to make sure that what happens to the characters is a consequence of their own actions. It turns out that, when you anger an extremely powerful red dragon, what you have afterwards is an extremely powerful red dragon angry at you. Extremely powerful red dragons aren't known for their overabundance of self-restraint when angered.

[faustin]

Vaarsuvius must be experiencing a bit of déjà vu right now.

[No good @ names]

Does this mean Sunny's drawing of a Snarl (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1257.html) is going to come up, too?

Super kudos to KorvinStarmast and No good @ names (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25939630&postcount=177)

I was still leaning IFCC so nothing insightful on my behalf. Just happened to be rereading some pages.


What is not to like?
(Yay me, I called it, red dragon! :smallbiggrin

Well done


Interesting that when there's multiple speech bubbles, the shading's different in each one - an indication that there's one basic "shaded background" for the bubbles as a whole with all the bubbles superimposed on it.

So the topmost bubble is mostly red, and the lowermost bubble is mostly yellow.

Now I think Rich is just going with “why would the art stay the same, when it could be better” in terms of the speech bubbles.



I don’t think the Good (tm) guys are abandoning Serini or inflicting grievous harm on Sunny.

I imagine that Calder if he’s not already completely free will soon be free regardless of Sunny. Too much of a liability to be dependent on a entranced enemy.

[The_Weirdo]

I don’t think the Good (tm) guys are abandoning Serini or inflicting grievous harm on Sunny.

Oh, I don't think they will, either. I'm just arguing that they should cut a deal with him to give her to him when they're done saving the world in exchange for his help, since the world continuing to exist is in his interest as well.

They won't, to be sure.

[Precure]

I am going to torture and kill that halfling in spectacularly gruesome fashion

Interesting choice of words. Will Belkar fell here?


Yup, Roy clearly has no clue how to address a powerful evil dragon. Guess that wasn't a subject at Fighter College.

Whatever you'd want of him, you always START with the heavy flattery and groveling. Especially the groveling.

Roy might think he sounded reasonable, but you never speak to such a dragon as if an equal. "Cowardly sycophantic" is the legal minimum.

Tarquin would come handy in a situation like this.

[The MunchKING]

Haley's off to the side, with an unobstructed shot at Sunny, and Sunny's Anti-Magic Eye. Can/would Haley be able to put that Eye out?

She doesn't have to gouge it out. Some kind of irritant or something getting in the eye (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1240.html) would make Sunny close it, and that shuts off the beam.

[danielxcutter]

I imagine the circle prevented Calder from leaving or moving outside the circle but otherwise left them aware of their surroundings and clearly capable of using some of their spell-like abilities. With Sunny negating it… all bets are off.

Also, Calder seems smaller than the ABD, and the ABD had enough additional sorcerer levels to have at least two 7th-level spells. Even considering that red dragons are strong for their age categories and black dragons aren’t, I’m still expecting “tough fight, but isn’t going to introduce any more stupid complications than that”. Especially since the casters actually have most of their high-end spells left - most of what the clerics did was running and melee attacks, and they all spent most of the Serini fight in Sunny’s AMF cone. This probably isn’t going to be like the first half of the Vector Legion fight where Roy only had himself, a half-dead Belkar, an undead Durkon with no spells, and a summoned devil.

[The MunchKING]

Interesting choice of words. Will Belkar fell here?

THAT Halfling I think was explicitly to show he was calling out Serini while acknowledging there was another one.


Tarquin would come handy in a situation like this.

I was going to say "would his pride even let him grovel before a Red Dragon", and not really, if anything he was WAY more familiar (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0723.html) than Roy.

[silversaraph]

1300 coming up --- who feels lucky?

Belkar getting stasis'd has a fair amount of appeal to me.

[Kish]

I think the Order should be able to beat up Calder pretty handily, but this isn't going to be just a random combat encounter.

What it might be, is a chance to demonstrate to everyone there that everyone there is now on page "let's not avoidably kill the understandably pissed-off sapient, whatever certain alleged paladins who left the strip before it was online might sputter about ALWAYS CHAOTIC EVIL."

[Lumix19]

I'm actually really glad to see Calder since this dungeon has been so empty and Serini has told the party basically nothing.

Calder seems quite familiar with Serini so maybe he can give the party (and us) more context for this whole thing and a bit of backstory. Indeed, based on Sunny's picture we might finally learn a bit about Kraagor.

[Ruck]

Based on the hair (head and feet(?)) a strong case can be made that's Serini, at which point Sunny would be very familiar with the details from the story they're depicting. While drawing too many conclusions seems to be one of the main purposes for this forum, I don't think speculation based on details in those pictures is necessarily unreliable.

Speculation about what? The original theory was that Sunny's drawing depicted things we'd find in Serini's dungeon, because Sunny saw them there. If Sunny is drawing Kraagor fighting a red dragon, that is obviously not something in the final dungeon nor something Sunny saw.


Look, it's a Flying Dragon (Calder) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Dragon_(Calder))!

Haha, nice find. I was wondering if the name had any significance.


It may be that the hammer grants casting bonuses or has special abilities like "wielder may cast Righteous Might up to three times per day".

It looks to me like Thor's Might was the backup plan in case Durkon's negotiations with Redcloak went south, and I'm not sure he or Minrah would have known that about the hammer.


Also, apropos of absolutely nothing, but for some time now I have been greatly enjoying that we are seeing just how much more to the her dungeon there is and how brutal it is for crashers, which all shows that she clearly was not just effectively handing Xykon the Gate by letting him try without actively opposing him at a time that he wouldn't even have gotten past the doors thanks to MitD's sabotage.

Hah, yeah, that was a fun period of time when people were arguing that Serini was in league with Xykon.


She doesn't have to gouge it out. Some kind of irritant or something getting in the eye (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1240.html) would make Sunny close it, and that shuts off the beam.

Sounds like the Order could really use Dale Gribble here.

https://thechive.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/kingofthehill-dale-gribble-hankhill-voiceactor-dead-died-hulu-disneyplus-Johnny-Hardwick-5.jpg

Also, count me betting strongly against Belkar dying in the encounter with Calder.

[brian 333]

If bunsen is right that Calder used telepathy until Sunny could deactivate the circle spell underneath him, then maybe it is possible to be in half-stasis where you do not breathe but can still think.

I believe Sunny tripped the stasis trap, enabling the dragon to use spells and powers, (the outer circle,) and is now disabling the containment trap, (the inner circle.)

If this is the case, the dragon would not know how long he has been trapped. If he had been aware, then the passage of time would have been, at least in gross terms, perceptible.

[Mic_128]

(Edit, one of the Clerics should have Regeneration, right?)

Durkon does, he was in a discussion on using it on his Mother when Minrah returned, cutting the debate off.

Also, had a thought...


Someone who has appeared in exactly one (1) page of the story so far (including all the prequel stories) will become an important ally in the first half of the next book.

99% I'm looking too much into it, but it could mean that if this is the halfway point in the book, we could see Sunny's end. I don't think it honestly, but more "it's entirely possible that this could be the end of Serini, with Sunny to carry on her legacy with helping defend the gates (before things go south with team evil getting to the gate)

[3SecondCultist]

I don't think that's a vanilla red dragon. If anything, our new friend Calder looks more like a hellfire wyrm, from MM2.

https://i.ibb.co/zxBtVpd/BUUIIhE.jpg
The speech bubbles, its smaller size (they only go to Gargantuan, not Colossal), the magic circle, and its use of charm and suggestion-like abilities all imply the latter. Plus the art resemblance, at least to my eye. Of course, it could be the Giant getting creative with his drawing style, but that's a fun epic monster that isn't all that common - very on brand for the 'rare monsters from all over' that Kraagor's Gate seems to have.

[BriarHobbit]

This is a great issue and ends on a cliffhanger. Hopefully, Elan can use all his bardic charm to calm down the dragon, but that seems unlikely. Fighting a dragon is not a joke. I would not be surprised if Serini funded this dungeon with the dragon's hoard.

[Liquor Box]

I think she's firmly Neutral, but I wouldn't have any issue believing she is Good if that was revealed - after all, taking powerful beings prisoner because you believe it's necessary to save the fabric of the universe is something Good characters can do (https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Miko_Miyazaki) in Stickworld.

Two points here.

First, it is not necessary. All the Scribbles defended their gates in different way, and none of the others seemed to have enslaved monsters - there's no reason to think that it is necessary here. Indeed, even Serini has said she no longer enslaves fresh monsters. Your mileage may vary on whether slavery can be justified if it was absolutely necessary to save the world, but here it is not.

Second, there is a difference between taking a prisoner (and even then, as you and I have discussed, that is sometimes justified and sometimes not), and enslaving someone to perform guard duty for decades.


Also, apropos of absolutely nothing, but for some time now I have been greatly enjoying that we are seeing just how much more to the her dungeon there is and how brutal it is for crashers, which all shows that she clearly was not just effectively handing Xykon the Gate by letting him try without actively opposing him at a time that he wouldn't even have gotten past the doors thanks to MitD's sabotage.

I'm not sure anything we've seen in the last few strips is very different from what I had imagined would be behind some of those doors. We knew there was trickery. We knew there were creatures powerful enough to give Xykon experience (like powerful dragons).

The only information we have regarding whether anything on this new level of the dungeon would be able to stop Xykon's party is Serini's own words that she didn't expect her defence to hold out against serious threats forever, only slow them down so she could call her friends (atrip 1278). I suppose someone with intimate knowledge of the rules may look at the monsters we see in this section and their stats and judge whether Serini is wrong and some of those monsters might stand a chance of stopping Xykon. But personally I back Serini's estimation over people judging a dragon's strength based on how many Roy-lengths it looks in cartoon form.

Even if Serini is wrong, and her dungeon would fare better than she thinks, it is still her belief that it would eventually fold that is relevant to assessing whether she was right to do nothing at all before the Order prodded her into action.

[Aodha]

As Tuwwr pointed out, Belkar could easily upset the balance of things by throwing the enchanted lizard (now friendly to Belkar and his companions) into Sunny"s anti-magic ray, restoring it to its dragon form. But Belkar may not even need to take action-- depending on where it is at the moment, the simple action of Sunny's gaze in his direction could strike his friend, freeing him.

Was Lien left behind in the pool of "acid"? No one offers her a lift, and I don't see her in the red dragon's chamber. She could be a surprise element.

Also, Elan points out Sunny's lens lying just outside the doorway, and Haley is looking right at it. Could Haley stick it on the end of an arrow and reinsert it? Could Serini simply reactivate the stasis field if Sunny's gaze is no longer an issue?

[Somniloquist]

This is a great issue and ends on a cliffhanger. Hopefully, Elan can use all his bardic charm to calm down the dragon, but that seems unlikely. Fighting a dragon is not a joke. I would not be surprised if Serini funded this dungeon with the dragon's hoard.
Elan would probably be the best choice for the role of diplomat here, but I think it would be really fun to watch that task fall to Vaarsuvius. First, because their history with dragons would make it interesting to see what they decide to do here and could make for a good character growth moment. Second, because Vaarsuvius is the worst diplomat in the order (seriously, Belkar has a better track record at this point!), and I love seeing characters earnestly trying to do things they naturally suck at.

[danielxcutter]

Two points here.

First, it is not necessary. All the Scribbles defended their gates in different way, and none of the others seemed to have enslaved monsters - there's no reason to think that it is necessary here. Indeed, even Serini has said she no longer enslaves fresh monsters. Your mileage may vary on whether slavery can be justified if it was absolutely necessary to save the world, but here it is not.

Second, there is a difference between taking a prisoner (and even then, as you and I have discussed, that is sometimes justified and sometimes not), and enslaving someone to perform guard duty for decades.



I'm not sure anything we've seen in the last few strips is very different from what I had imagined would be behind some of those doors. We knew there was trickery. We knew there were creatures powerful enough to give Xykon experience (like powerful dragons).

The only information we have regarding whether anything on this new level of the dungeon would be able to stop Xykon's party is Serini's own words that she didn't expect her defence to hold out against serious threats forever, only slow them down so she could call her friends (atrip 1278). I suppose someone with intimate knowledge of the rules may look at the monsters we see in this section and their stats and judge whether Serini is wrong and some of those monsters might stand a chance of stopping Xykon. But personally I back Serini's estimation over people judging a dragon's strength based on how many Roy-lengths it looks in cartoon form.

Even if Serini is wrong, and her dungeon would fare better than she thinks, it is still her belief that it would eventually fold that is relevant to assessing whether she was right to do nothing at all before the Order prodded her into action.

Well, the disenchanters and the Paragon Rust Monster would have been devastating considering how dependent 3.x adventurers are on magic gear. The Indescribable Horror and the Blue Poet don't seem to be actual D&D monsters though. The primary issue with this stage of the dungeon is that unlike the shell game gauntlet, Serini can't really restock these nearly as easily, and the traps are also very static.

The Draketooth pyramid had a bunch of secret passages and peepholes for the Draketooth sorcerers to look through and probably take notes on the intruders, which could easily result in two dozen mid~high level sorcerers ambushing a party taking a rest or otherwise out of resources. This isn't something Serini's dungeon can do, and with the rest of the Scribblers out of the picture that means that time is still on Team Evil's side.

Now that they're here, and hopefully if they prove themselves to Serini, the Order can probably do that. Assuming of course, no further complications arise - and oh look, the IFCC still has two claims on V's soul left. I expect that the first attempt to use scry-and-die on Team Evil is going to get foiled by that, because to Roy's frustration the comic just loves dangling opportunities in front of the Order and then yanking them away.


As Tuwwr pointed out, Belkar could easily upset the balance of things by throwing the enchanted lizard (now friendly to Belkar and his companions) into Sunny"s anti-magic ray, restoring it to its dragon form. But Belkar may not even need to take action-- depending on where it is at the moment, the simple action of Sunny's gaze in his direction could strike his friend, freeing him.

Was Lien left behind in the pool of "acid"? No one offers her a lift, and I don't see her in the red dragon's chamber. She could be a surprise element.

Also, Elan points out Sunny's lens lying just outside the doorway, and Haley is looking right at it. Could Haley stick it on the end of an arrow and reinsert it? Could Serini simply reactivate the stasis field if Sunny's gaze is no longer an issue?

Bloodfeast is an allosaur, not a dragon; while probably capable of not instantly dying to a single claw attack of Calder's, he's still not going to be doing well in a straight fight against what's almost certainly a high-CR dragon. I expect that he's going to be more of a distraction that gives the Order a round or two of breathing room, rather than carry most of the fight himself.

Also I think the paladins just aren't on-panel yet. Durkon was in front of Minrah and the paladins on the Mimi-ladder and dwarves in general have the exact same speed as humans in heavy armor, so they're probably right behind the clerics.

[Liquor Box]

As Tuwwr pointed out, Belkar could easily upset the balance of things by throwing the enchanted lizard (now friendly to Belkar and his companions) into Sunny"s anti-magic ray, restoring it to its dragon form. But Belkar may not even need to take action-- depending on where it is at the moment, the simple action of Sunny's gaze in his direction could strike his friend, freeing him.

Was Lien left behind in the pool of "acid"? No one offers her a lift, and I don't see her in the red dragon's chamber. She could be a surprise element.

Also, Elan points out Sunny's lens lying just outside the doorway, and Haley is looking right at it. Could Haley stick it on the end of an arrow and reinsert it? Could Serini simply reactivate the stasis field if Sunny's gaze is no longer an issue?

Isn't the lizard a dinosaur, not a dragon?

Edit: Yes, Daniel said it's an Allosaur. Those are only about as big asa rhino or a hippo, so I don't think they'd be a match for a big dragon.


Well, the disenchanters and the Paragon Rust Monster would have been devastating considering how dependent 3.x adventurers are on magic gear. The Indescribable Horror and the Blue Poet don't seem to be actual D&D monsters though. The primary issue with this stage of the dungeon is that unlike the shell game gauntlet, Serini can't really restock these nearly as easily, and the traps are also very static.

Devastating on Redcloak and Xykon etc? Their items are things like the Crimson Mantle - would it work on those?

Yeah, Serini actually said one of the weaknesses was that she couldn't restock quickly, so an intruder can grind he dungeons down a bit at a time.


The Draketooth pyramid had a bunch of secret passages and peepholes for the Draketooth sorcerers to look through and probably take notes on the intruders, which could easily result in two dozen mid~high level sorcerers ambushing a party taking a rest or otherwise out of resources. This isn't something Serini's dungeon can do, and with the rest of the Scribblers out of the picture that means that time is still on Team Evil's side.

Now that they're here, and hopefully if they prove themselves to Serini, the Order can probably do that. Assuming of course, no further complications arise - and oh look, the IFCC still has two claims on V's soul left. I expect that the first attempt to use scry-and-die on Team Evil is going to get foiled by that, because to Roy's frustration the comic just loves dangling opportunities in front of the Order and then yanking them away.


I don't think it's about the Order proving themsleves anymore, that passed when they defeated her. Now it's just a matter of them keeping her in line.

[Iamyourking]

If the Red Dragon is indeed 84 feet, that would make him Colossal by 3.5 rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm), meaning he could only be a Great Wyrm. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon). Which have a CR of 26, so good luck to our heroes - they're going to need it...

It actually puts him dead on Gargantuan (Draconomicon 51).

[danielxcutter]

Isn't the lizard a dinosaur, not a dragon?

Edit: Yes, Daniel said it's an Allosaur. Those are only about as big asa rhino or a hippo, so I don't think they'd be a match for a big dragon.

In terms of size alone I think Bloodfeast is about as big, maybe bigger than Calder. It's just that size is really not indicative of actual combat threat beyond a certain point. Still, if he's in the AMF that'd just make it a raw comparison of stats - which Calder's still going to be better at, but even just surviving a full attack from Calder means an entire round the dragon isn't unleashing that full attack on a squishier member of the party, or using breath attacks or spells/spell-like abilities.


Devastating on Redcloak and Xykon etc? Their items are things like the Crimson Mantle - would it work on those?

Mmm... I don't think that'll really happen with Team Evil, since things rarely go that well, and they're primarly spellcasters with summoned and allied monsters, not melee combatants in magic gear. And the Crimson Mantle's an artifact (quite probably a major artifact), so disenchanters wouldn't be able to destroy it. It could slow them down, I think, but I think the big monsters are actually going to delay them more. Especially since Xykon has so many immunities that a lot of things just don't work on him, period.


Yeah, Serini actually said one of the weaknesses was that she couldn't restock quickly, so an intruder can grind he dungeons down a bit at a time.

It might have worked if even one of the Scribblers was alive, but yeah - being the last Gate is by far when this dungeon is at its weakest.


I don't think it's about the Order proving themselves anymore, that passed when they defeated her. Now it's just a matter of them keeping her in line.

I don't think she really has much faith in their combat capabilities. Taking her down was more counteracting her tricks and being more clever than her, rather than a straight fight. Calder, on the other hand, is quite likely to be a fight where stats and strategy matter more than guile and trickery.

[hamishspence]

According to Redcloak in No Cure For The Paladin Blues bonus strips, the dragon they encountered in Xykon's old tower was an "ancient silver dragon" (Which are Gargantuan, and have same sizes at each age category, as red dragons).

Here it, as a zombie

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html


looks pretty comparable in size to the red dragon. Perhaps a touch smaller, but not half the size the way it would be if the red dragon was Colossal.

[Rollin]

If you attack a dragon to subdue it, each hit inflicts no actual damage, but you keep track of how much you would have and call it "subdual" damage. As soon as you've inflicted enough subdual damage, the dragon surrenders. I think there was a % chance each round based on the ratio of subdual damage compared to the dragon's full health. Essentially you prove to the dragon that you could have killed it, but chose not to.

And subdued dragons would serve you only as long as they thought you could repeat the experience. The more powerful they were, the more they'd plot an escape and revenge.

Someone had read Farmer Giles of Ham.

[Alex Warlorn]

I'd go with "Rising Up!" from Tales of Zestiria OST

[danielxcutter]

According to Redcloak in No Cure For The Paladin Blues bonus strips, the dragon they encountered in Xykon's old tower was an "ancient silver dragon" (Which are Gargantuan, and have same sizes at each age category, as red dragons).

Here it, as a zombie

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html


looks pretty comparable in size to the red dragon. Perhaps a touch smaller, but not half the size the way it would be if the red dragon was Colossal.

"Half the size" is actually not as visually obvious as it sounds. If it's half as tall, half as wide, and half as long, it's an eighth of the size, not half.

[WanderingMist]

Two points here.

First, it is not necessary. All the Scribbles defended their gates in different way, and none of the others seemed to have enslaved monsters - there's no reason to think that it is necessary here. Indeed, even Serini has said she no longer enslaves fresh monsters. Your mileage may vary on whether slavery can be justified if it was absolutely necessary to save the world, but here it is not.

Second, there is a difference between taking a prisoner (and even then, as you and I have discussed, that is sometimes justified and sometimes not), and enslaving someone to perform guard duty for decades.


You are assuming Calder themselves wasn't in the middle of some deplorably evil action, perhaps regularly demanding sacrifice from a nearby village that had no way to stop them, as is usual in fairy tales.

[Arthaiser]

im not scared for the party, i mean, V is right there, and V has killed basically more dragons than any other character in the story of the world.

[Sir_Norbert]

99% I'm looking too much into it, but it could mean that if this is the halfway point in the book, we could see Sunny's end. I don't think it honestly, but more "it's entirely possible that this could be the end of Serini, with Sunny to carry on her legacy with helping defend the gates (before things go south with team evil getting to the gate)

This is the 106th strip of Book 7. Based on the length of the other books, I would guess we are approaching the halfway point but not yet there.

Of course, Rich's words that someone would [i]become an important ally in the first half are still true, whether Sunny sticks around into the second half or not.

[GMantis]

Between Serini and the Dragon, it is Serini who is the villain.

Are there still people who think that Serini is good aligned?
I certainly do - nothing in her behavior would contradict this. Certainly not imprisoning an evildoer. That Calder is angry at being imprisoned doesn't mean that he didn't deserve it. Of course it's possible that he was innocent Red Dragon just minding his own business and Serini went out of her way to capture him for her dungeon, but so far this theory doesn't seem particularly likely, what with the whole burning people alive for not being sufficiently servile...

[Liquor Box]

In terms of size alone I think Bloodfeast is about as big, maybe bigger than Calder. It's just that size is really not indicative of actual combat threat beyond a certain point. Still, if he's in the AMF that'd just make it a raw comparison of stats - which Calder's still going to be better at, but even just surviving a full attack from Calder means an entire round the dragon isn't unleashing that full attack on a squishier member of the party, or using breath attacks or spells/spell-like abilities.

Yeah, I must admit I'm not very confident of estimates people make of the size of two animals in a comic. I'm not at all sure the Giant even tries to ensure they are all to scale, and then you have forced perspective on top of that.


Mmm... I don't think that'll really happen with Team Evil, since things rarely go that well, and they're primarly spellcasters with summoned and allied monsters, not melee combatants in magic gear. And the Crimson Mantle's an artifact (quite probably a major artifact), so disenchanters wouldn't be able to destroy it. It could slow them down, I think, but I think the big monsters are actually going to delay them more. Especially since Xykon has so many immunities that a lot of things just don't work on him, period.

It sounds like you agree with Serini, that her dungeon would just slow Team Evil down.


It might have worked if even one of the Scribblers was alive, but yeah - being the last Gate is by far when this dungeon is at its weakest.


I agree. Serini's dungeon would be a good one if it had a hit squad able to to take down attackers, like Dorukan's, Soon's and Gerard's (perhaps) did. But Serini hasn't had that for a long time.


I don't think she really has much faith in their combat capabilities. Taking her down was more counteracting her tricks and being more clever than her, rather than a straight fight. Calder, on the other hand, is quite likely to be a fight where stats and strategy matter more than guile and trickery.

I agree again. She did underestimate their combat ability, and possibly continues to do so. It still a dumb decision, because she was in the position of needing to take the best shot with what she had available, before Team Evil inevitably (in her stated opinion) took the gate.

It doesn't really matter what she thinks anymore though, because she's not running the show.


You are assuming Calder themselves wasn't in the middle of some deplorably evil action, perhaps regularly demanding sacrifice from a nearby village that had no way to stop them, as is usual in fairy tales.

I guess I am assuming that. But you could justify just about any character as good or evil by what might or might not have happened off screen. The only thing we can use (IMO) to judge a character is what we see, or perhaps what is referred to in the comic, and based on that Serini has been the villain of the two so far.

To be honest though, even if the dragon was evil (and Serini knew it because she saw it), I still am not sure that justifies enslaving it for decades.

[Psepha]

I'd be VERY disappointed if this actually was the fight where Belkar goes out. I want to see him have a moment of glory against Xykon - he's specifically experienced in fighting undead at this point, so not giving him that moment to shine when it feels like he got given character development to prepare him for that fight would be a real shame.

Also I hope fighting a dragon like this isn't triggering for Vaarsuvius... last time V had to go toe to toe with an enraged ancient dragon it did NOT go well for far too many people

[danielxcutter]

Trying to slow intruders down was kind of the point of the dungeon from the start, Serini said so herself. It was meant to buy time for her to get the rest of the Scribblers to help, but it'll still buy the Order time to deal with their own problems when the IFCC inevitably throws pitforged spanners into the Order's plans, and the Order can function as the aforementioned hit squad.

[Liquor Box]

Trying to slow intruders down was kind of the point of the dungeon from the start, Serini said so herself. It was meant to buy time for her to get the rest of the Scribblers to help, but it'll still buy the Order time to deal with their own problems....

Yes, I agree entirely.


I certainly do - nothing in her behavior would contradict this. Certainly not imprisoning an evildoer. That Calder is angry at being imprisoned doesn't mean that he didn't deserve it. Of course it's possible that he was innocent Red Dragon just minding his own business and Serini went out of her way to capture him for her dungeon, but so far this theory doesn't seem particularly likely, what with the whole burning people alive for not being sufficiently servile...

Whether the forum thought Serini was evil, neutral or good has been canvassed a long time before this strip

Apparently before we even met her, based on flashabcks:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?244103-Serini-was-Evil

And also, shortly after we met her (between her kidnapping the paladins and attacking the Order from memory:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?645242-Serini-Toormuck%C2%92s-alignment-(sort-of)

So I wont revisit all of those arguments.

But based on this one example (enslaving Calder), I think it does contradict it. Not so much that it's impossible she's good, but enough that what we've seen doesn't indicate it.

First, we don't actually know Calder is evil (although I suspect he might be given his demands for servility - ironic since Serini has forced him into servility for so long).
Secondly, its questionable whether being evil alone is grounds enough to imprison - some would suggest you should only be judged for your actions (and then by someone with authority to do so).
Third, Calder is not merely imprisoned, he is enslaved - this is not a prison, instead Calder is there to perform a job for captor (guarding the dungeon).
Fourthly, Serini effectively tells us in strip 1283 that she is not righteously locking up evildoers, but forcing monsters into guard duty because it was expedient (she contrasts it with her current approach of getting agreement from vulnerable monsters to do the job).


It's not impossible that Serini has done good somehwere off-screen in her life such that it outweighs her actions in recent strips. But what we have seen does not paint a picture of 'good'.

[danielxcutter]

I wonder if Calder was awake and aware for all these years, or if the stasis spell has degraded with time. Because the latter kinda makes sense but the former is a pretty damn big yeesh moment, yeah.

[Provengreil]

So, betting time: Someone dies here.

It'll be Bloodfeast.

We all know he doesn't have the stats to take on Calder directly, sure, but if he jumps in Sunny's beam he's still plenty large enough to cause issues based on size alone. That opening can create room for the order to accomplish.....something, but he'll pay for it with his life. This will be one of the final psychological nails in the coffin that sets up Belkar for his own sacrifice later.

[The_Weirdo]

You are assuming Calder themselves wasn't in the middle of some deplorably evil action, perhaps regularly demanding sacrifice from a nearby village that had no way to stop them, as is usual in fairy tales.

You kill or you imprison someone like that. What you do not do is force them into combat-based slavery. The best-case scenario for Serini here is that she's acting like Amanda Waller from Suicide Squad, and Waller is at best a morally gray character (though anyone that knows the risk people like her represent and the type of person she truly is should know better than call her morally gray).

[Liquor Box]

I'd be VERY disappointed if this actually was the fight where Belkar goes out. I want to see him have a moment of glory against Xykon - he's specifically experienced in fighting undead at this point, so not giving him that moment to shine when it feels like he got given character development to prepare him for that fight would be a real shame.

Also I hope fighting a dragon like this isn't triggering for Vaarsuvius... last time V had to go toe to toe with an enraged ancient dragon it did NOT go well for far too many people

Agree. Belkar is a protagnist, to see him go out against an antagonist who isn't even a tertiary villain would be unsatisfying.

[Raven777]

Between Serini and the Dragon, it is Serini who is the villain.

Are there still people who think that Serini is good aligned?

By classic D&D morality, defeating then imprisoning an adult Evil™ Red Dragon is, at worst, Neutral™. If the dragon has its own history of atrocities and the imprisonment can be construed as karma or punishment, it might even be Good™ and Lawful™.

Regardless, I thought it was pretty obvious Serini lives firmly in Chaotic Neutral territory.

[Liquor Box]

By classic D&D morality, defeating then imprisoning an adult Evil™ Red Dragon is, at worst, Neutral™. If the dragon has its own history of atrocities and the imprisonment can be construed as karma or punishment, it might even be Good™ and Lawful™.

Regardless, I thought it was pretty obvious Serini lives firmly in Chaotic Neutral territory.

I tend to agree that, if we ever do find out her alignment, it will probably be chaotic evil. But to repeat my above post in response to your other points:

First, we don't actually know Calder is evil (although I suspect he might be given his demands for servility - ironic since Serini has forced him into servility for so long).
Secondly, its questionable whether being evil alone is grounds enough to imprison - some would suggest you should only be judged for your actions (and then by someone with authority to do so).
Third, Calder is not merely imprisoned, he is enslaved - this is not a prison, instead Calder is there to perform a job for captor (guarding the dungeon).
Fourthly, Serini effectively tells us in strip 1283 that she is not righteously locking up evildoers, but forcing monsters into guard duty because it was expedient (she contrasts it with her current approach of getting agreement from vulnerable monsters to do the job).

[Peelee]

Two points here.

First, it is not necessary. All the Scribbles defended their gates in different way, and none of the others seemed to have enslaved monsters - there's no reason to think that it is necessary here. Indeed, even Serini has said she no longer enslaves fresh monsters. Your mileage may vary on whether slavery can be justified if it was absolutely necessary to save the world, but here it is not.

Second, there is a difference between taking a prisoner (and even then, as you and I have discussed, that is sometimes justified and sometimes not), and enslaving someone to perform guard duty for decades.
Yes, Miko did not plan to enslave them. Miko planned to kill them. You seem to think this is an ethical improvement - or, at the very least, compatible with Good. I doubt anything i say would change your mind, and I'm not terribly interested in doing so in any event. Suffice it to say, i stand by my statement - firmly think she's neutral, would not be surprised if the narrative revealed she was Good.

I'm not sure anything we've seen in the last few strips is very different from what I had imagined would be behind some of those doors.
Interesting that such an imagination was not voiced at any point until now, then. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

"Half the size" is actually not as visually obvious as it sounds. If it's half as tall, half as wide, and half as long, it's an eighth of the size, not half.

And a Gargantuan dragon would be around half the length of a Colossal dragon, using Draconomicon's listed standard dragon lengths.

The important part is that the Red dragon does not look like it is double the length of the Silver dragon zombie.

[Gift Jeraff]

Looks like they found the Final Dungeon's optional super boss.

[Liquor Box]

Yes, Miko did not plan to enslave them. Miko planned to kill them. You seem to think this is an ethical improvement - or, at the very least, compatible with Good. I doubt anything i say would change your mind, and I'm not terribly interested in doing so in any event. Suffice it to say, i stand by my statement - firmly think she's neutral, would not be surprised if the narrative revealed she was Good.

No, she planned to capture them and bring them to trial, but was willing to kill them if they tried to escape. Different to enslaving someone, but very happy to agree to disagree on whether enslaving someone is worse than that.

I agree that she may well turn out that she's neutral, but would be surprised if she's good.


Interesting that such an imagination was not voiced at any point until now, then. :smalltongue:

It was voiced, by me and numerous others, that the doors had high level monsters (capable of giving Xykon experience0 and traps behind them. Which is what we've seen. Is there anything you've seen that departs from that? Or did you think the doors didn't have strong monsters or traps behind them?

[Mic_128]

So, betting time: Someone dies here.

It'll be Bloodfeast.

We all know he doesn't have the stats to take on Calder directly, sure, but if he jumps in Sunny's beam he's still plenty large enough to cause issues based on size alone. That opening can create room for the order to accomplish.....something, but he'll pay for it with his life. This will be one of the final psychological nails in the coffin that sets up Belkar for his own sacrifice later.

I don't think so, not yet at least. There would have to be some sort of payoff for Bloodfeast seeing that Roy hasn't actually been visited by Julia.

Also, I don't think Belkar really needs that, as it's exactly what Durkon already did.

[Peelee]

No, she planned to capture them and bring them to trial
Which she fully believed they would be convicted of, and which she claimed the only possible sentence was death.

That sounds like slavery killing them with more steps.


It was voiced, by me and numerous others, that the doors had high level monsters (capable of giving Xykon experience0 and traps behind them. Which is what we've seen. Is there anything you've seen that departs from that? Or did you think the doors didn't have strong monsters or traps behind them?
Ah, my mistake. Similarly, i played in a unique D&D game once. It had monsters and an adventure. Another game i played had monsters and an adventure. I had thought they were wildly different campaigns but through thought process of just being incredibly vague i now know they were both pretty much the same thing.

Also, it's a bit boring having yet another dungeon that has monsters and traps, seeing as Dorukan's Dungeon had monsters and traps, and Girard's Dungeon had monsters and traps, and Lirian's dungeon had monsters and traps. So much repetition!

[Liquor Box]

Which she fully believed they would be convicted of, and which she claimed the only possible sentence was death.

That sounds like slavery killing them with more steps.

Whether it sounds like it to you or not, it is not her killing them. But either way it's different to slavery because it is intended (by Miko at least) to to be justice for crimes. It is not wanting someone to do something, so going out capturing them, and forcing them to.


Ah, my mistake. Similarly, i played in a unique D&D game once. It had monsters and an adventure. Another game i played had monsters and an adventure. I had thought they were wildly different campaigns but through thought process of just being incredibly vague i now know they were both pretty much the same thing.

Also, it's a bit boring having yet another dungeon that has monsters and traps, seeing as Dorukan's Dungeon had monsters and traps, and Girard's Dungeon had monsters and traps, and Lirian's dungeon had monsters and traps. So much repetition!

You are being sarcastic, but you are prettty much spot on here. This is just another dungeon. The traps are intricate (probably less so then the main trap in Serini's other dungeons) and the monsters are high level (which we already knew they were in Serini's dungeons). Indeed, it even resembles Dorukon's dungron in terms of the look. How does it differ from what you expected?

[BloodSquirrel]

Point of order: She's not forcing Calder to fight. She doesn't have any kind of compulsion on him, nor is there any known or implied threat against him if he doesn't. As far as we know, he is perfectly free and capable of just letting an intruder pass or even teaming up with them. If he's being used as a guardian, then so far, the only reason Serini is confident that he'll fight is that he is naturally belligerent enough to attack anyone who comes in without coercion on her part.

And given that he just tried to murder the whole party while Roy was in the middle of saying that he didn't want to fight puts him pretty firmly in the "evil" category.

More to the point of this whole thing, we once again see evidence of my assertion that Serini is "very clever, but also very dumb". She's created a dungeon that she isn't fully in control of. Somehow, she's trapped a red dragon in it as a guardian, but doesn't seem to have considered that maybe it might not just sit there quietly and play its part. If Xykon and Redcloak had walked into this room it damned well might have decided to team up with them.

[Tzardok]

Whether it sounds like it to you or not, it is not her killing them. But either way it's different to slavery because it is intended (by Miko at least) to to be justice for crimes. It is not wanting someone to do something, so going out capturing them, and forcing them to.


False dichotomy. Slavery has been used as punishment for crimes by societies that thought this just. Ancient Greece or Rome, for example, had people enslaved as punishment for certain crimes, and even in the younger past, inmates in American prisons had to do forced work.

[Peelee]

Whether it sounds like it to you or not, it is not her killing them.
Yes, i am familiar with the concept of washing one's hands of an affair. I remain unconvinced that "Come with me to be killed by another or i will kill you right now" has any meaningful difference in morality between the two.

But either way it's different to slavery
Yes, you have already posited your opinion on the ethical improvement of death to slavery.

You are being sarcastic
Yes, because you are generalizing past the point of usefulness. For generalizing like that, why even read the story? You've already read many like it - the good guys beat the bad guys. I have to assume you continue to read it because the specifics are different and that is what makes it unique and different from others, which is a concept we can then apply towards Kraagor:s Gate as well.

[Provengreil]

False dichotomy. Slavery has been used as punishment for crimes by societies that thought this just. Ancient Greece or Rome, for example, had people enslaved as punishment for certain crimes, and even in the younger past, inmates in American prisons had to do forced work.

It's still legal in Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Florida, Mississippi, South Carolina, and Texas, though the presentation is often less in the form of whips and batons and more in the ability to do literally anything but rot in a concrete box.

[Kardwill]

How did a (epic level) halfling rogue subdue and imprison a dragon like that? For such a feat, Serini would need her friends' assistance. There's a story behind Calder's situation.

Since there is a scribble showing Serini and Kraagor fighting it, I guess his capture might predate The Plan, which might mean he was not initially captured to be put in the dungeon. First monster that gave her the idea of the whole defense system? Old enemy of the Scribblers? Kraagor's old subdued mount? All 3 of those?





First, we don't actually know Calder is evil (although I suspect he might be given his demands for servility - ironic since Serini has forced him into servility for so long).


Even if Calder is justifiably cranky after 50+ years of stasis, killing random strangers that are trying to negociate with you, just because they're not grovelling enough, does not really sound Good, or even Neutral. ^^

[ellindsey]

From a narrative point of view, this is almost certainly where Serini dies.

Her role in the story is largely concluded. There's not much left for her to do in terms of story structure, and killing her now removes the last member of the original adventuring party that sealed the Rifts, leaving the conclusion entirely in the hands of the current generation of heroes.

It's thematically appropriate for her to be killed as a result of her own actions, by the dragon that she enslaved.

And it raises the story stakes, as the Order of the Stick will now have to find their way through the remainder of the dungeon without her guidance.

[Peelee]

From a narrative point of view, this is almost certainly where Serini dies.

Her role in the story is largely concluded. There's not much left for her to do in terms of story structure, and killing her now removes the last member of the original adventuring party that sealed the Rifts, leaving the conclusion entirely in the hands of the current generation of heroes.

It's thematically appropriate for her to be killed as a result of her own actions, by the dragon that she enslaved.

And it raises the story stakes, as the Order of the Stick will now have to find their way through the remainder of the dungeon without her guidance.
I'll take that bet. I think the main purpose in her still being alive is to shed more context on the Scribbler's breakup.

[Provengreil]

I'll take that bet. I think the main purpose in her still being alive is to shed more context on the Scribbler's breakup.

Hm. There's still a certain gemstone to consider on that front, though the Order probably won't have access to it until after everything else is resolved.

[The MunchKING]

This is the 106th strip of Book 7. Based on the length of the other books, I would guess we are approaching the halfway point but not yet there.

IIRC, he said this would be the last book "even if it was the size of a phone book", so I'm not sure how much you can count on previous books' page count for this ones'.


You kill or you imprison someone like that. What you do not do is force them into combat-based slavery. The best-case scenario for Serini here is that she's acting like Amanda Waller from Suicide Squad, and Waller is at best a morally gray character (though anyone that knows the risk people like her represent and the type of person she truly is should know better than call her morally gray).

Then she should have put a bomb in his head. :smallbiggrin:


False dichotomy. Slavery has been used as punishment for crimes by societies that thought this just. Ancient Greece or Rome, for example, had people enslaved as punishment for certain crimes, and even in the younger past, inmates in American prisons had to do forced work.

I mean it's still LEGAL in America. The Constitutional Amendment that outlaws Slavery and Indentured Servitude specifically has a clause that says "except as punishment for a crime".

[Shining Wrath]

Originally I thought it would be weird for Belkar to die here, at the hands (claws? wings? teeth?) of a more-or-less random encounter.
And then I thought over my D&D career, and in fact I've lost characters to not-the-final-boss-or-even-a-mini-boss more than once. It might not be what you'd expect in a novel, but it would be true to the genre that underlies this story; death can come when you least expect it to enemies you did not know you had.

This is not an argument that Belkar must die here, it's an argument that it wouldn't be bad writing if he did.

I do think Elan pointing out Sunny's eye cap at the entrance is foreshadowing. Someone is going to try to put that eye cap back on. V might be able to do it with a hand spell (V's lens-handling Hand?). And that someone may get caught in the stasis with Calder.

Most of the Order is around level 15, and most classes get 6 or 7 hit points per level. The dragon's breath is possibly going to take any squishy characters caught in it - maybe Minrah. V if they are in the line of fire is in trouble. Haley will probably Evade it, and also Belkar. Roy will just tank it, and also maybe Durkon. Elan may be gone.

Elan going down might be what gives Sunny a new saving throw against domination.

[Unoriginal]

You kill or you imprison someone like that. What you do not do is force them into combat-based slavery.

So Shojo, Hinjo and Roy are evil for making Belkar fight for the fate of the world (with magical and physical coercing), rather than just separating the halfling's skull from his spine and be done with it?

[mystara]

Maybe I'm just looking for things. But I can't help but notice the detail of Serini dropping (and leaving) her staff.
I wonder if that staff has more importance than it appears. Could it perhaps be a key?

[DreamCreator]

Hi, I've read just pages 1-4 of this thread so apologies if this has been discussed, I hadn't seen it discussed yet.

I think the bringing out of Calder drives a few very interesting plot ideas forward in the OOTSverse.

One, there is harking back to Serini telling off the OOTSers for being prejudiced against monsters. She brings up a good point - which is basically the extension of Redcloak's argument. This point is that adventurers, and also entire cultures (such as humans, elves, and dwarves) commit genocide against other races (like goblins and orcs). But she brought around the point to include more races (like trolls) and monsters in general (like Mimics).

It seems to me to draw some parallels between how Serini thinks and how Redcloak thinks, and it is even more parallel because both characters are leveraging an amount of "The ends justify the means". Redcloak enslaves and murders humans (and others) for a better world for the Goblins. Serini imprisoned or enslaved monsters (and apparently still has monsters imprisoned against their will) in order to protect the world from the Snarl.

It's possible that the final conclusion of this (frankly, quite epic) narrative by Rich is a restructuring of the entire culture and society that the protagonists reside within, one where sentient beings are no longer murdered or persecuted for the sake of xp gains and loot.

I don't think it would be possible to depict this entire restructuring on panel, but it could be shown as the direction things are heading when the strip concludes.

EDIT: All this may seem very obvious, I think the biggest point I am feeling is in a response to some people discussing whether or not this encounter is actually very supportive to the story in general. This is my response as to why I think it is supportive of the plot, as opposed to more of a 'random encounter' sort of thing.

[Mic_128]

Originally I thought it would be weird for Belkar to die here, at the hands (claws? wings? teeth?) of a more-or-less random encounter.
And then I thought over my D&D career, and in fact I've lost characters to not-the-final-boss-or-even-a-mini-boss more than once. It might not be what you'd expect in a novel, but it would be true to the genre that underlies this story; death can come when you least expect it to enemies you did not know you had.

This is not an argument that Belkar must die here, it's an argument that it wouldn't be bad writing if he did.

Sure it is. Narratively, having Belkar die here serves no purpose and is a massive anti-climax to his foreshadowed death. Your suggestion for him dying is "In D&D sometimes you die because you had a bad GM or you rolled badly at an unfortunate time."


Rich has for a long time put the "genre" towards the back with story taking priority over game mechanics. That would include mechanics like "Ooh, you failed a saving throw and then rolled a nat one, you're now dead."

[Erzengel]

Nice to see V carrying Belkar.

[Xlsfd]

Could Calder's name possibly be derived from the Latin word caldus, which means "hot"?

[Tzardok]

Could Calder's name possibly be derived from the Latin word caldus, which means "hot"?

I would guess it comes from caldera (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caldera), a volcanic crater.

[Provengreil]

Could Calder's name possibly be derived from the Latin word caldus, which means "hot"?

It's quite possible, but this isn't the first time I've seen a rather imposing figure named Calder, or something similar. Rich may not have gone back to latin, though, the word caldera is more well known.

And really, who among us hasn't named a few characters like this, with names close to a theme? Like Buzz the Lightning Mage, Auren the Paladin of the Light, Sledge the Fighter, or Little Foot the Brachiosaur.

[Fitzclowningham]

It's interesting that Calder is so measured in his (?) reaction to the situation. As discussed, he could have been in a blind rage after his long imprisonment (and he might as well be as far as Serini is considered). However, he doesn't assume that the rest of the humanoids are her associates and share her guilt; he isn't inclined just to kill them because they are beneath consideration; although he is a stickler for what he considers proper draconic etiquette, he specifically tells them he'll listen to what they have to say after he's taken care of his spectacularly gruesome business (if they live); and he indicates a willingness to let them go, depending on their actions. The Giant wrote a lot of nuance and thoughtfulness into this massively powerful, supremely arrogant, and "always chaotic evil" being.

[danielxcutter]

Honestly, if Calder was awake all this time I don’t exactly blame them for being inclined to brutally murder Serini and maybe the other humanoids in the bargain. For that matter, if they were then I’m surprised they can still string two words together - being unable to move or leave but still awake and aware yet powerless to change that… at that point I think it’d just have been better to have killed them and put a prismatic golem or three there instead, even if they are Legitimately Super Evil.

[Ranadiel]

Since we know the Scribblers fought Calder at some point based on the calendar, anyone else think he might have been the boss monster of this dungeon before Senri gave it a makeover? I can't imagine they would have fought a dragon that powerful unless it was related to their goals. Checking the calendar art they faced him in a cavern, and I think only three gates have been underground? Plus, it would have cut down on shipping costs if they built the dungeon around him. :smalltongue:

On a different note, IF, and I consider that to be a big if, Belkar were to end up trapped in the stasis field to fulfill the prophecy without actually dying, I see one way that it could end up making sense narratively. Specifically, I could see it being a kind of mirror of the final adventure of the Scribblers. So something like Roy telling everyone else to retrigger the stasis field while him and Belkar are within its area of effect, and Belkar spends his last action pushing Roy out of the way, probably without even realizing why he is doing it.

That may or may not be how the final battle for Scribblers went after our prior flashback to it cuts out, but it could be close enough to get Senri to finally get over her issues with the Order and give a full info dump on what actually happened, probably revealing important context that she might not even realize is important.

[faustin]

Much like with Vaarsuvius and the black Dragon family, the fact Calder was evil gave Serini the moral right to enslave him?

[Provengreil]

Maybe I'm just looking for things. But I can't help but notice the detail of Serini dropping (and leaving) her staff.
I wonder if that staff has more importance than it appears. Could it perhaps be a key?

I saw that too. Staffs are a very odd piece of gear for a rogue and you'd expect a more traditional cane from her even as a walking stick. Having that staff be more important while casually using it to bonk people would totally be her style.

[MaverickMopete]

Elan would probably be the best choice for the role of diplomat here, but I think it would be really fun to watch that task fall to Vaarsuvius. First, because their history with dragons would make it interesting to see what they decide to do here and could make for a good character growth moment. Second, because Vaarsuvius is the worst diplomat in the order (seriously, Belkar has a better track record at this point!), and I love seeing characters earnestly trying to do things they naturally suck at.

Let's look at the situation here.

Roy: Diplomacy isn't a Fighter Skill, though having seen Roy's history, he may have cross-class ranks in it.
Elan: Diplomacy is a Bard Skill, which would make Elan the best bet.
Durkon: Diplomacy is a Cleric Skill, and we've seen that Durkon is willing to try to make A DC 50 Diplomacy Check (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1205.html).
Haley: Diplomacy is a Rogue Skill, but Haley has invested most of her skill points into Bluff instead.
Belkar: Diplomacy is not a Ranger or Barbarian Skill.
Vaarsuvius: Diplomacy is not a Wizard Skill, and Vaarsuvius has a low Charisma Modifier (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html).
Minrah: Diplomacy is a Cleric Skill, but Minrah started her career as a Fighter, which does not have Diplomacy.

Vaarsuvius definitely has the lowest chance of success, even considering a circumstance bonus for having slain dragons before (albeit with the help of Suggestion in the first case, and having three Soul Splices in the second.) I'd say Vaarsuvius's chances of success are one in a million.

And a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)

[Mordar]

Between Serini and the Dragon, it is Serini who is the villain.

Are there still people who think that Serini is good aligned?

I'm in with the "at worst neutral more likely good" crowd. Not a paragon of Good, but plenty of Good deeds.


Ethically, the at the very least deserves to have something bad happen to her, personally, for kidnapping a sentient being as a slave.

Storywise, the Giant has been known to say that he tries to make sure that what happens to the characters is a consequence of their own actions. It turns out that, when you anger an extremely powerful red dragon, what you have afterwards is an extremely powerful red dragon angry at you. Extremely powerful red dragons aren't known for their overabundance of self-restraint when angered.

No enslavement. Captivity, no compulsions or enchantments to action that I have seen. Likely wagered on natural instinct/confusion to drive the dragon to attack anything that broke the stasis. Yes, there is a chance Calder wasn't evil. Given the willingness to let the OotS escape without a fight (from the "...what happens next is largely up to you...") it appears possible, and then that possibility is promptly erased with the "insufficiently servile" gout of dragonflame. Aside: Extremely powerful red dragons also aren't known for being anything other than utterly self-centered, willing to kill and/or eat anything they want for any reason they choose, treasure-hoarding, princess capturing, knight melting, blighted balls of malfeasance wrapped up in scales.


Two points here.

First, it is not necessary. All the Scribbles defended their gates in different way, and none of the others seemed to have enslaved monsters - there's no reason to think that it is necessary here. Indeed, even Serini has said she no longer enslaves fresh monsters. Your mileage may vary on whether slavery can be justified if it was absolutely necessary to save the world, but here it is not.

Second, there is a difference between taking a prisoner (and even then, as you and I have discussed, that is sometimes justified and sometimes not), and enslaving someone to perform guard duty for decades.

How did those other gate defensive techniques work out? Might you argue that they didn't have some element necessary to their success? Given her skillset, aside from asking anyone kicking in the door very nicely to leave, what would have been a better play? Subterfuge, traps, active defenses, epic wizards...all tried. So maybe trying all of them in one was a hail mary, and sometimes that means extreme measures.

Also, not enslaved. Imprisoned. Not on guard duty...other than as a byproduct of putting a suddenly alive and alert dragon in front of anyone that has gotten this far. Sort of a spin on the Cocteau plan without the "beneficial" totalitarian society angle.


Devastating on Redcloak and Xykon etc? Their items are things like the Crimson Mantle - would it work on those?

Yeah, Serini actually said one of the weaknesses was that she couldn't restock quickly, so an intruder can grind he dungeons down a bit at a time.

Not every invader would be an Epic Lich Sorcerer and his nearly-Epic Goblin Cleric lacky/master, so still good options, right?


I guess I am assuming that. But you could justify just about any character as good or evil by what might or might not have happened off screen. The only thing we can use (IMO) to judge a character is what we see, or perhaps what is referred to in the comic, and based on that Serini has been the villain of the two so far.

To be honest though, even if the dragon was evil (and Serini knew it because she saw it), I still am not sure that justifies enslaving it for decades.

While I still hold not enslaved, just to be clear, you are saying killing it dead (is there any other kind?) would have been not only better, but a legitimate Good deed?


But based on this one example (enslaving Calder), I think it does contradict it. Not so much that it's impossible she's good, but enough that what we've seen doesn't indicate it.

First, we don't actually know Calder is evil (although I suspect he might be given his demands for servility - ironic since Serini has forced him into servility for so long).
Secondly, its questionable whether being evil alone is grounds enough to imprison - some would suggest you should only be judged for your actions (and then by someone with authority to do so).
Third, Calder is not merely imprisoned, he is enslaved - this is not a prison, instead Calder is there to perform a job for captor (guarding the dungeon).
Fourthly, Serini effectively tells us in strip 1283 that she is not righteously locking up evildoers, but forcing monsters into guard duty because it was expedient (she contrasts it with her current approach of getting agreement from vulnerable monsters to do the job).


It's not impossible that Serini has done good somehwere off-screen in her life such that it outweighs her actions in recent strips. But what we have seen does not paint a picture of 'good'.

On #2: Who has authority over Red Dragons? An organization of beings who had the physical/magical/logistical might to take over an area of land in which that Dragon lives, and then write down some words that say "doing X (thing the Red Dragon was doing) is illegal in the land we have taken over", and then the physical/magical/logistical might to go capture the Red Dragon? Would it have been less bad if the Scribblers that participated in the taking of the Red Dragon had written a note first, then voted on the note, then went and captured the Red Dragon?

On #2 part 2: We're to condemn Serini for this action, but the Red Dragon would get a pass because they were "drawn that way"? The Dragon can only be evil if it has performed net evil deeds, right? While I don't think that justifies an endless litany of unpleasant (or evil) actions being visited upon it, it does suggest it isn't an innocent victim.

On #3 & 4: No enslaved. In stasis, supposedly unaging, unsuffering and unaware of the passage of time until such a moment as they are released from the magic. A life sentence with the possibility of parole. The fact that their own natures are being used to support the defense of the Gate when things come knocking is an advantageous outcome, but they are not performing guard duty for their hunk of moldy bread and cup of fetid water, fearing the lash. The monsters on guard duty in 1283 chose the role.


You kill or you imprison someone like that. What you do not do is force them into combat-based slavery. The best-case scenario for Serini here is that she's acting like Amanda Waller from Suicide Squad, and Waller is at best a morally gray character (though anyone that knows the risk people like her represent and the type of person she truly is should know better than call her morally gray).

There's a lot to how Waller uses the SS (ironic, that...) that makes it more gray...and I think it most cases the SS members opt-in. Same question here as above - killing the Dragon is better than stasis-trapping it until a point in the future when it gets to fight for its life and freedom?

- M

[KorvinStarmast]

Between Serini and the Dragon, it is Serini who is the villain. No.

Are there still people who think that Serini is good aligned? You don't have to be good aligned to be one of the good guys: examples include Belkar, V, and for that matter Girard Draketooth.

Well they definitely don't get birthday cakes or to cash out their IRA in one. :smallbiggrin: I set them up, you spike them. :smallsmile:

"Deserves got nothing to do with it." Not that this is that kind of story. Agree with both.

... the Giant has been known to say that he tries to make sure that what happens to the characters is a consequence of their own actions. It turns out that, when you anger an extremely powerful red dragon, what you have afterwards is an extremely powerful red dragon angry at you. Extremely powerful red dragons aren't known for their overabundance of self-restraint when angered. If Serini gets cooked, you can say that she was hoist {by} on her own petard.
"Hoist with his own petard" is a phrase from a speech in William Shakespeare's play Hamlet that has become proverbial. The phrase's meaning is that a bomb-maker is blown ("hoist", the past tense of "hoise") off the ground by his own bomb ("petard"), and indicates an ironic reversal or poetic justice.

I believe Sunny tripped the stasis trap, enabling the dragon to use spells and powers, (the outer circle,) and is now disabling the containment trap, (the inner circle.) Hmm, I like where you went with that.

I would not be surprised if Serini funded this dungeon with the dragon's hoard. All the more reason for the dragon to be very angry.

The Draketooth pyramid had a bunch of secret passages and peepholes for the Draketooth sorcerers to look through and probably take notes on the intruders, which could easily result in two dozen mid~high level sorcerers ambushing a party taking a rest or otherwise out of resources. Yes. Defense in depth. Tucker's Kobolds, but with Sorcerers, not Kobolds looking through the murder holes. :smalleek:

I'd be VERY disappointed if this actually was the fight where Belkar goes out. I want to see him have a moment of glory against Xykon - he's specifically experienced in fighting undead at this point, so not giving him that moment to shine when it feels like he got given character development to prepare him for that fight would be a real shame.
Good point.

Even if Calder is justifiably cranky after 50+ years of stasis, killing random strangers that are trying to negotiate with you, just because they're not grovelling enough, does not really sound Good, or even Neutral. ^^ Might be neutral, depending on the circumstances.

[bunsen_h]

Beautiful art, including the fire.

I'm reminded slightly of the Hugo Award bases from Montreal's 2009 Worldcon (https://www.thehugoawards.org/hugo-trophies/2009-hugo-award-trophy/). The rocket's "flames" were in the shape of maple leaves, alluding to Canada. They were in shades of red, orange, yellow, and gold, and very effectively conveyed a sense of motion. Also, the stone of the base was a kind of feldspar that had a very shimmery effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labradorite) when there was any relative motion between the base and one's eyes. It was beautiful; no still picture can do it justice.


I wonder if Calder was awake and aware for all these years, or if the stasis spell has degraded with time. Because the latter kinda makes sense but the former is a pretty damn big yeesh moment, yeah.

Calder: "Well, I suppose there's no way of telling how long it's been." To me, this implies that the stasis was in effect for some time.


Since we know the Scribblers fought Calder at some point based on the calendar, anyone else think he might have been the boss monster of this dungeon before Senri gave it a makeover? I can't imagine they would have fought a dragon that powerful unless it was related to their goals. Checking the calendar art they faced him in a cavern, and I think only three gates have been underground? Plus, it would have cut down on shipping costs if they built the dungeon around him. :smalltongue:

I'm not following you. I don't think that there's been any indication that there was a dungeon here before Serini had it constructed.


I saw that too. Staffs are a very odd piece of gear for a rogue and you'd expect a more traditional cane from her even as a walking stick. Having that staff be more important while casually using it to bonk people would totally be her style.

While it's possible that the staff has special abilities, I think that its bonking power is sufficient to justify its use instead of a mere cane.

[gustmes]

This room looks large enough for a certain dinosaur to return to full size

[Tubercular Ox]

I'm not following you. I don't think that there's been any indication that there was a dungeon here before Serini had it constructed.

I think the logic is that the gate was a quest objective for a group of adventurers, therefore there was a dungeon around it.

I actually find it moderately persuasive, given the power of drama in the setting.

[Resileaf]

I think the logic is that the gate was a quest objective for a group of adventurers, therefore there was a dungeon around it.

I actually find it moderately persuasive, given the power of drama in the setting.

We've seen the crayon flashbacks. It's out in the open. They all are out in the open. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

The dungeons were built around the rifts after the gates were made.

[Tubercular Ox]

We've seen the crayon flashbacks. It's out in the open. They all are out in the open. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

The dungeons were built around the rifts after the gates were made.

Okay, then it was a "Wilderness Location." I think that's what they used to call above ground dungeons.

[Somniloquist]

Anything's a dungeon if you're unlucky enough.

[Vikenlugaid]

Come on V, say disintegrate one more time, for me.

[Bacon Elemental]

The dragon size debate kinda passed, but a quick size comparison in an image thingie shows that Calder is pretty close to the Ancient Black Dragon, if a bit larger.

I think its pretty clear that Calder is an old enemy of the Scribblers who Serini imprisoned here at a later date... Must be a notable guy if the story of Kraagor subduing him featured in Sunnys Storytime. Not sure why he's not still in stasis though! That room is after all full of burn marks and clawslashes, implying he hasnt only just been freed...

[fractal]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the scorch and claw marks on the walls of the room. That suggests some period of time when Calder was trapped in the room but not in the circle. Since he seems trapped in the circle *now*, does that imply the stasis circles were a later addition to the dungeon? Whenever it was added, the creator must have had enough power to compel Calder to enter it - although how do you even build it when there's an angry dragon already in the room?

The situation is odd any way I think about it.

[fractal]

Not sure why he's not still in stasis though! That room is after all full of burn marks and clawslashes, implying he hasnt only just been freed...

I see I've been ninja'd!

[weasel_airlift]

In strip 207, it's noted that dragons are color coded for convenience. Thus, Calder must be evil.

[Precure]

More to the point of this whole thing, we once again see evidence of my assertion that Serini is "very clever, but also very dumb". She's created a dungeon that she isn't fully in control of. Somehow, she's trapped a red dragon in it as a guardian, but doesn't seem to have considered that maybe it might not just sit there quietly and play its part. If Xykon and Redcloak had walked into this room it damned well might have decided to team up with them.

Yeah, this is how I interpreted it as well. "Don't assume malice when stupidity is an adequate explanation."

[Fyraltari]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the scorch and claw marks on the walls of the room. That suggests some period of time when Calder was trapped in the room but not in the circle.

I see I've been ninja'd!

Ahem...890


The walls in the room look damaged. Seems like Calder has been able to rage at their cage for a while now.

[Ghosty]

I'm reminded slightly of the Hugo Award bases from Montreal's 2009 Worldcon (https://www.thehugoawards.org/hugo-trophies/2009-hugo-award-trophy/). The rocket's "flames" were in the shape of maple leaves, alluding to Canada. They were in shades of red, orange, yellow, and gold, and very effectively conveyed a sense of motion. Also, the stone of the base was a kind of feldspar that had a very shimmery effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labradorite) when there was any relative motion between the base and one's eyes. It was beautiful; no still picture can do it justice.

Calder: "Well, I suppose there's no way of telling how long it's been." To me, this implies that the stasis was in effect for some time.

I'm not following you. I don't think that there's been any indication that there was a dungeon here before Serini had it constructed...

It's gorgeous! Thank you for sharing the photo. I had no idea the Hugos put so much thought and time into their awards.

About Calder, we've a clear crayon drawing of it (broken horn) fighting what could only be Kraggor and probably Serini. So this happened awhile ago. Pre Scribble breakup, and pre Tomb building. Plus it would have to be pre meeting Sunny, right? If the narratives are consistent and true?

The questions then become: what happened to Calder for all of this time between fighting the Scribble and now? Was he Stasis-ified by Dorukan? If so, why is Calder bent at Serini only? Why isn't it (seriously, find me a better pronoun) also looking for, and angry at, the rest of the Scribble? Or at least the angry dwarf with the giant battleaxe? Why is Calder not non-plussed by seeing a Beholder stumbling around?

As to Evil or not, it seems to be following the trope of Red Dragons from Smaug to the present day. Again, its first move isn't to try and Teleport out (an Ancient Red should have the spellcasting to do it), or to ask 'hey, what's going on.' Its main move is an attack that is designed to kill everyone standing next to the Epic Rogue (who probably does and should have a Reflex Save able to likely beat DC 36.) So it isn't trying to kill its tormentor specifically---who reasonably will be able to Evade, and an Ancient Red is smart enough to already know this---but rather everyone around her. "Kill em all, and let God know his own," isn't the act of a non-Evil being.

Aside, the book on these is CE alignment. We're expecting a CE entity to uphold a bargain why again?

I'm interested to see what happens next.

[Precure]

Calder reminds me of Malys, which is ironic considering what she has done to Krynn's halfling equivalents.

[GMantis]

But based on this one example (enslaving Calder), I think it does contradict it. Not so much that it's impossible she's good, but enough that what we've seen doesn't indicate it.
[LIST]
First, we don't actually know Calder is evil (although I suspect he might be given his demands for servility - ironic since Serini has forced him into servility for so long).

No, but based on the evil act he committed at the first possible opportunity and the evil act he's planning to carry out in the future (torture is still evil, even if he's justified in seeking revenge against Serini) it certainly looks this way.



Secondly, its questionable whether being evil alone is grounds enough to imprison - some would suggest you should only be judged for your actions (and then by someone with authority to do so).
Really? Carrying out evil acts can certainly be grounds for imprisonment. In fact, it would be a good act by the rules of the setting to outright kill a powerful force for evil such as an ancient red dragon, so arguably just imprisoning him is an act of mercy. And whether he was imprisoned by the proper authority is rather a question on the law-chaos axis of the alignment, rather than the good-evil one. And considering the likely absence of a proper authority around Kraagor's dungeon, imprisoning Calder could in fact count as a lawful act.


Third, Calder is not merely imprisoned, he is enslaved - this is not a prison, instead Calder is there to perform a job for captor (guarding the dungeon).

As already pointed out, he's not being coerced into fighting anyone. But even if he were, this doesn't necessarily count as evil. See for example Belkar being coerced into fighting the opponents of the order, which no one considered remotely evil, even a literal being of pure good.



Fourthly, Serini effectively tells us in strip 1283 that she is not righteously locking up evildoers, but forcing monsters into guard duty because it was expedient (she contrasts it with her current approach of getting agreement from vulnerable monsters to do the job).

Serini feeling guilty about her actions doesn't necessarily means they were evil. She might feel now that imprisoning Calder was excessive but that doesn't mean that she didn't have more righteous motives or that this wasn't a good course of action.

Also, feeling guilt over imprisoning others isn't really a hallmark of someone with an evil alignment...



It's not impossible that Serini has done good somehwere off-screen in her life such that it outweighs her actions in recent strips. But what we have seen does not paint a picture of 'good'.

How about her actions on-screen? Using only volunteers for her dungeons or rescuing a beholder and raising them to be a good person? Even during the fight with the Order she went well out of the way of killing any of them, despite believing that they posed a great risk to the world's continued existence.

[Peelee]

The walls in the room look damaged. Seems like Calder has been able to rage at their cage for a while now.

Despite all his rage he is still just a drake in a cage?

[TheNecrocomicon]

Despite all his rage he is still just a drake in a cage?

Or is he Raging Against the Machinations? But lol.

It comes to mind that the impact of Calder's fire breath can't be as bad as the cliffhanger implies, because Haley at least has Evasion and Durkon and Minrah previously dosed themselves with enough fire protection to resist a Maximized Fireball from Xykon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1215.html). Vaarsuvius probably has all manner of protective wards up too, and O-Chul is able to endure a huge array of things through his saving throws.

The rest may be in trouble though. Especially Serini, for whom troll content should well be a drawback, as fire is one of trolls' main vulnerabilities (or at least makes them stay dead). But then again, she should know that very well, and have invested in items that passively or actively grant protection from fire and acid.

That said, is dragons' fire breath magical enough in nature that jumping into Sunny's anti-magic eye-cone for protection is an option? I would guess not, but I'm just dartboarding at this point.

[Tzardok]

Despite all his rage he is still just a drake in a cage?

Pretty big and magical for a mere drake, ain't he? :smalltongue:



That said, is dragons' fire breath magical enough in nature that jumping into Sunny's anti-magic eye-cone for protection is an option? I would guess not, but I'm just dartboarding at this point.

Yes, it is. Breath Weapons are Supernatural Abilities, and those stop working in Antimagic Fields. (Well, in most cases. I once made a construct with an Extraordinary Breath Weapon, but that one was just a flamethrower built into its maw. Needed to be reloaded after two uses too.)

[brian 333]

I do not think the color differences between the Empress of Blood and Calder are mere art style differences. Calder appears more intentionally orange. As others have said, Hellfire Wyrm fits the image better than red dragon.

In fact, I'm going to register that as a bet.

[Kish]

Why is Calder not non-plussed by seeing a Beholder stumbling around?
Because the whole reason he's angry at Serini is her established pattern of enslaving "monsters"?

[Liquor Box]

Point of order: She's not forcing Calder to fight. She doesn't have any kind of compulsion on him, nor is there any known or implied threat against him if he doesn't. As far as we know, he is perfectly free and capable of just letting an intruder pass or even teaming up with them. If he's being used as a guardian, then so far, the only reason Serini is confident that he'll fight is that he is naturally belligerent enough to attack anyone who comes in without coercion on her part.

You don't think so?

She says in reference to Calder, that she dadn't always used volunteers. That seems a pretty clear callback to 1283 where Serini says that she used to 'order' the monsters to do what she wanted.

We don't know if there was an explicit threat "if you don't kill all intruders than x will happen to you", but i think forcibly capturing someone, removing them from their home and keeping them in a workplace with no way to leave, them 'ordering' them to do a job amounts to slavery even without an explicit threat.


And given that he just tried to murder the whole party while Roy was in the middle of saying that he didn't want to fight puts him pretty firmly in the "evil" category.

I tend to agree that he will turn out to be evil. But I give him some leeway here, as he is confronted by his slavemaster, and her companions. I think a chattel slave seeking to escape is entitled to kill their slaver and the slaver's armed companions to effect that escape. Perhaps less justified when the motivation for the killing is revenge, not escape, but I still think the years of enslavement is a significant mitigating factor.


False dichotomy. Slavery has been used as punishment for crimes by societies that thought this just. Ancient Greece or Rome, for example, had people enslaved as punishment for certain crimes, and even in the younger past, inmates in American prisons had to do forced work.

That is true. However, we have no indication that that was what happened here.


Yes, i am familiar with the concept of washing one's hands of an affair. I remain unconvinced that "Come with me to be killed by another or i will kill you right now" has any meaningful difference in morality between the two.

Lucky I haven't tried to convince you of that then isn't it :smallwink:

No, i'm saying that arresting someone for crimes possibly punishable by death, and delivering them for a trial that may result in a death sentence is meaningfully different from simply killing someone on the spot. I know you think that the trial was a sham, but even if you are right, Miko didn't know anything about that at the time.


Yes, you have already posited your opinion on the ethical improvement of death to slavery.

No, I don't think I have.


Yes, because you are generalizing past the point of usefulness. For generalizing like that, why even read the story? You've already read many like it - the good guys beat the bad guys. I have to assume you continue to read it because the specifics are different and that is what makes it unique and different from others, which is a concept we can then apply towards Kraagor:s Gate as well.
So can you point out what you think is in this final dungeon, which is out of step with what we had cause to expect from Serini's previous dungeons? What is that you;ve seen in this final dungeon has made you think that Serini was wrong to think that Xykon would only be slowed down?

[Iamyourking]

I do not think the color differences between the Empress of Blood and Calder are mere art style differences. Calder appears more intentionally orange. As others have said, Hellfire Wyrm fits the image better than red dragon.

In fact, I'm going to register that as a bet.

It's possible, but for those who have the Summer Monster For Every Season he looks almost exactly like the Colossal Red Dragon. Same horns, same shade of red, same yellow eyes, same "beard" of scales-really the only differences are that his wings are a little more purple and his belly slightly darker.

[The MunchKING]

Let's look at the situation here.

Roy: Diplomacy isn't a Fighter Skill, though having seen Roy's history, he may have cross-class ranks in it.
Elan: Diplomacy is a Bard Skill, which would make Elan the best bet.
Durkon: Diplomacy is a Cleric Skill, and we've seen that Durkon is willing to try to make A DC 50 Diplomacy Check (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1205.html).
Haley: Diplomacy is a Rogue Skill, but Haley has invested most of her skill points into Bluff instead.
Belkar: Diplomacy is not a Ranger or Barbarian Skill.
Vaarsuvius: Diplomacy is not a Wizard Skill, and Vaarsuvius has a low Charisma Modifier (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html).
Minrah: Diplomacy is a Cleric Skill, but Minrah started her career as a Fighter, which does not have Diplomacy.

Vaarsuvius definitely has the lowest chance of success, even considering a circumstance bonus for having slain dragons before (albeit with the help of Suggestion in the first case, and having three Soul Splices in the second.) I'd say Vaarsuvius's chances of success are one in a million.

And a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)

Elan also has Very High Charisma, it was 18 at the beginning (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html), Haley had a High Charisma, but less so than the Sorceress that Elan was kidnapped by (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html).

Meanwhile Durkon also has a Very Low Charisma, and gripes about it when he has to convince people of stuff.

I don't remember if Roy or Belkar ever stated their Charisma score, but have both been pretty persuasive about stuff when they try.


Or is he Raging Against the Machinations? But lol.

It comes to mind that the impact of Calder's fire breath can't be as bad as the cliffhanger implies, because Haley at least has Evasion

Belkar has it too (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html). Hailey might be up to improved Evasion these days.



That said, is dragons' fire breath magical enough in nature that jumping into Sunny's anti-magic eye-cone for protection is an option? I would guess not, but I'm just dartboarding at this point.

It's (Su) (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon) so IIRC it would get shut off by an Anti-magic zone.

[Liquor Box]

How did those other gate defensive techniques work out? Might you argue that they didn't have some element necessary to their success? Given her skillset, aside from asking anyone kicking in the door very nicely to leave, what would have been a better play? Subterfuge, traps, active defenses, epic wizards...all tried. So maybe trying all of them in one was a hail mary, and sometimes that means extreme measures.

There have been pages of debate about the effectiveness of the different defences, both in terms of comparing them as abstract challenges for the range of possible people who might have attacked, and in terms of their actual performance against Team Evil. Views differ, although I sense the majority rate Soon's gate highly. Personally I think that Soon's defence and Dorukon's defence (which held out for months even after his death, longer than Serini's has so far even though delay is Serini's goal) were better than Serini's against Team Evil.

What would have been better? Well given that Serini seemed to have assistance from the other Scribblers, Serini could have asked Dorukon to put wards up (like on his gate) and that would have been stronger (IMO). She had massive resources (and expended massive resources on what she created), and I think there are literally hundreds of possibilities which may or may not have been more effective than what she actually did.

One such possibility would have been to do what she has been doing for the last few years - use volunteers instead of sacrificial slaves.


Also, not enslaved. Imprisoned. Not on guard duty...other than as a byproduct of putting a suddenly alive and alert dragon in front of anyone that has gotten this far. Sort of a spin on the Cocteau plan without the "beneficial" totalitarian society angle.

As noted above, she tells us in strip 1283 that she ordered her monsters guard her dungeons. She doesn't state how she enforced her orders. But, in my opinion, capturing someone, taking them from their home, and ordering them to do a job is slavery. Even Serini seems to accept that the approach was wrong.


Not every invader would be an Epic Lich Sorcerer and his nearly-Epic Goblin Cleric lacky/master, so still good options, right?

No, but the point was raised was the effecitivness of the defence against Team Evil in particular, so that was what I responded to.

How effective would it have been against a different, but also powerful attacker? Well, I suppose it depends. But Serini herself told us in 1278 that she didn't think it could hold out against a suitably powerful attacker forever, just delay them so she could get help from Dorukan and Lirian.


While I still hold not enslaved, just to be clear, you are saying killing it dead (is there any other kind?) would have been not only better, but a legitimate Good deed?

Not necessarily. Whether is is justified (or good/neutral/evil) for a lawful authority to execute someone for terrible wrongdoing is a heated topic on which people tend to disagree. I am somewhat of a fence sitter myself.

But that is not what happened here. We have no indication that Serini was trying to enact just punishment on Calder (or any of her other monster slaves) for their actions. Instead what we are presented with is her using them as slaves because she needed some guards and that was the most expedient way to get them.


On #2: Who has authority over Red Dragons? An organization of beings who had the physical/magical/logistical might to take over an area of land in which that Dragon lives, and then write down some words that say "doing X (thing the Red Dragon was doing) is illegal in the land we have taken over", and then the physical/magical/logistical might to go capture the Red Dragon? Would it have been less bad if the Scribblers that participated in the taking of the Red Dragon had written a note first, then voted on the note, then went and captured the Red Dragon?

Sure, the point of who has authority in the OotS setting is a bit nebulous. There may have been someone (whoever ruled the country where the dragon committed any crimes perhaps), but we certainly don't know about it.

But that's not the point. The point was that it is questionable whether being evil alone is enough, or whether you need to commit some sufficiently evil act. It may turn out that Calder (and the other monsters Serini enslaved) committed heinous acts, but nothing in the story so far indicates that.


On #2 part 2: We're to condemn Serini for this action, but the Red Dragon would get a pass because they were "drawn that way"? The Dragon can only be evil if it has performed net evil deeds, right? While I don't think that justifies an endless litany of unpleasant (or evil) actions being visited upon it, it does suggest it isn't an innocent victim.

I don't really understand what you are saying here.

I haven't said the dragon should get a pass - we don;t even know what it may have done, if anything. I've just said that nothing in the comic suggests that its enslavement was intended as a just punishment for crimes.



You don't have to be good aligned to be one of the good guys: examples include Belkar, V, and for that matter Girard Draketooth.
Yes, i agree. Serini is definately now working for (albeit a bit reluctantly) the good guys. the question was whether anyone still thinks she's good (in alignment sense) herself. Surprisngly, it seems some people do.


In strip 207, it's noted that dragons are color coded for convenience. Thus, Calder must be evil.

Agreed. Pretty sure the same thing is said about goblins somewhere

[Errorname]

It's possible, but for those who have the Summer Monster For Every Season he looks almost exactly like the Colossal Red Dragon. Same horns, same shade of red, same yellow eyes, same "beard" of scales-really the only differences are that his wings are a little more purple and his belly slightly darker.

Also while these aren't the exact same colours as the Sserpme fo Doolb, they're pretty close? Red main, lighter orange underbelly, purple wings. Some variation in tone is well within what you'd expect for the same species

[Ghosty]

Because the whole reason he's angry at Serini is her established pattern of enslaving "monsters"?

Nah, s/he's angry at her for enslaving him/her. A classic Red Dragon barely acknowledges the existence of other creatures, if they're not slaking its hunger or stealing from its horde or kissing its b^^#. Trait of sociopathy.

I just thought there'd be a, "Beholder? That's weird..." It very likely has enough SR and saves to blow off most of what the Beholder could throw at it.

(Aside, seeing your tag line, one of the most utterly satisfying encounters in that series is running into the Beholder/Flayer mob in Throne of Bhaal, and absolutely massacring them...)

[Ruck]

Which she fully believed they would be convicted of, and which she claimed the only possible sentence was death.


Yes, i am familiar with the concept of washing one's hands of an affair. I remain unconvinced that "Come with me to be killed by another or i will kill you right now" has any meaningful difference in morality between the two.

And given her method of going about it, even more unconvinced. "Surrender to be tried on crimes for which the only sentence is death, or be killed now," and then not even letting Roy finish his sentence in response, says a lot about how seriously she was taking her orders to bring them back alive.


IIRC, he said this would be the last book "even if it was the size of a phone book", so I'm not sure how much you can count on previous books' page count for this ones'.

I would guess we're about 1/3 of the way through the final book. (Or, at least, that's the common fraction closest to the correct answer.)


Could Calder's name possibly be derived from the Latin word caldus, which means "hot"?


I would guess it comes from caldera (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caldera), a volcanic crater.

Which itself was almost surely derived from the Latin.

Although I like this explanation, too:


Look, it's a Flying Dragon (Calder) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Dragon_(Calder))!


About Calder, we've a clear crayon drawing of it (broken horn) fighting what could only be Kraggor and probably Serini.

Oh, good catch. I've been skeptical that Sunny's drawings necessarily reflect things they've seen directly or that really happened, but that's a pretty convincing detail.

And it makes sense if Calder is in the story in part to shed more light on the Scribblers and Serini's past, or to prod Serini into doing it herself. I doubt Calder is there strictly to provide another combat opportunity.


Since we know the Scribblers fought Calder at some point based on the calendar, anyone else think he might have been the boss monster of this dungeon before Senri gave it a makeover?

I don't think the calendars should be definitely considered canon (unless Rich has said otherwise), although per the above post, I am more convinced this happened at some point than I was before that detail was caught.

Also, there wasn't a dungeon here before Serini built one.


Might be neutral, depending on the circumstances.

Well, we have the circumstances. Is it?

[The_Weirdo]

So Shojo, Hinjo and Roy are evil for making Belkar fight for the fate of the world (with magical and physical coercing), rather than just separating the halfling's skull from his spine and be done with it?

It's been a while, but mostly what Belkar couldn't do was stab someone in a city, and that was as an alternative to actual prison. I am hard-pressed to believe Serini judged Calder for any specific crime according to any specific law, let alone parlaying him into standing on a stasis circle as opposed to X or Y.


No enslavement. Captivity, no compulsions or enchantments to action that I have seen. Likely wagered on natural instinct/confusion to drive the dragon to attack anything that broke the stasis. Yes, there is a chance Calder wasn't evil. Given the willingness to let the OotS escape without a fight (from the "...what happens next is largely up to you...") it appears possible, and then that possibility is promptly erased with the "insufficiently servile" gout of dragonflame. Aside: Extremely powerful red dragons also aren't known for being anything other than utterly self-centered, willing to kill and/or eat anything they want for any reason they choose, treasure-hoarding, princess capturing, knight melting, blighted balls of malfeasance wrapped up in scales.

The punishment for "being evil" is not imprisonment. We don't know what Calder did, but his alignment alone would not justify waltzing into his cave, KOing him and putting him in stasis. In point of fact, no crime would justify that, not because death is necessarily preferable, but because it's widely seen as at least more humane than such enslavement.

And sure, ancient red dragons are utterly self-centered. And Serini's actions left this one with a major chip on his shoulder.

[Resileaf]

It's been a while, but mostly what Belkar couldn't do was stab someone in a city, and that was as an alternative to actual prison. I am hard-pressed to believe Serini judged Calder for any specific crime according to any specific law, let alone parlaying him into standing on a stasis circle as opposed to X or Y.

And also he couldn't be more than one mile away from Roy and he was always at risk of Roy deciding on a whim to activate the mark with a command word.

[The_Weirdo]

And also he couldn't be more than one mile away from Roy and he was always at risk of Roy deciding on a whim to activate the mark with a command word.

Fair, but that was still parlayed down from hard time due to, well, murder. A deal that he apparently took or could live with.

[Bookwyrm13]

Another update, another set of forum posts taking any possible excuse to interpret Serini in the worst light possible.

If "enslaving" someone, even someone evil, and using them for your own (ultimately good) purposes makes you evil--or at least excludes you from being good, then that would mean the ENTIRE Order is in the same boat, too.

Or have we forgotten poor Yukyuk so soon?

[The_Weirdo]

Another update, another set of forum posts taking any possible excuse to interpret Serini in the worst light possible.

If "enslaving" someone, even someone evil, and using them for your own (ultimately good) purposes makes you evil--or at least excludes you from being good, then that would mean the ENTIRE Order is in the same boat, too.

Or have we forgotten poor Yukyuk so soon?

I mean, V has a near genocide in their résumé, and Yukyuk attacked the group first, whereas we have no evidence whatsoever that Calder attacked them first. I have no beef with Serini; my beef is with bondage and oppression, as quite a few of the forumites may well recall.

[Liquor Box]

There may be a question about whether it is right to force a person to do a role as a punishment for their crimes, particularly when that was an alternative chosen by the individual to avoid a different punishment, like in Belkar's circumstances.

But there's simply no indication in the comic that that is what has happened to Calder. There's no mention of him doing anything bad before being imprisoned, and even if you assume he did (due to his redness and evil demeanour), there's no indication that Serini's purpose was punishment. She needed some monsters to do a job, so she forced some monsters to do a job. She has now revised her methods and instead uses monsters who agree to the job (even if the circumstances of that agreement is questionable).


Another update, another set of forum posts taking any possible excuse to interpret Serini in the worst light possible.

If "enslaving" someone, even someone evil, and using them for your own (ultimately good) purposes makes you evil--or at least excludes you from being good, then that would mean the ENTIRE Order is in the same boat, too.

Or have we forgotten poor Yukyuk so soon?
From recollection there was pretty widespread criticism of Belkar for doing what he did to Yukyuk, and some of that even extended to the wider order for not stepping in and intervening.

From my perspective the crazy thing is that people keep trying to defend Serini for some pretty clearly poor conduct. The forum points out Belkar's bad actions (eg Yukyuk), most people agree, someone points out Serini's bad actions and several forumites are up in arms.

[Ruck]

Another update, another set of forum posts taking any possible excuse to interpret Serini in the worst light possible.

If "enslaving" someone, even someone evil, and using them for your own (ultimately good) purposes makes you evil--or at least excludes you from being good, then that would mean the ENTIRE Order is in the same boat, too.

Or have we forgotten poor Yukyuk so soon?

I think it's good to distinguish "makes you evil" from "is an evil act."

And as far as Yukyuk goes, I think the point where Belkar and V let Mr. Scruffy use his mouth as a litter box was certainly beyond anything that could be considered a necessary evil for the mission. (Sure, I laughed, but that's not the point.)

[The_Weirdo]

I think it's good to distinguish "makes you evil" from "is an evil act."

And as far as Yukyuk goes, I think the point where Belkar and V let Mr. Scruffy use his mouth as a litter box was certainly beyond anything that could be considered a necessary evil for the mission. (Sure, I laughed, but that's not the point.)

Personally, funny though it was, I couldn't stomach it. I have a rather visual mind. X_X

On the plus side, it does help with my being a writer.


From my perspective the crazy thing is that people keep trying to defend Serini for some pretty clearly poor conduct. The forum points out Belkar's bad actions (eg Yukyuk), most people agree, someone points out Serini's bad actions and several forumites are up in arms.

Of note, Serini herself offers some self-criticism. Not enough to release Calder or make any sort of amends (assuming she even can), but...

[Kish]

Another update, another set of forum posts taking any possible excuse to interpret Serini in the worst light possible.

If "enslaving" someone, even someone evil, and using them for your own (ultimately good) purposes makes you evil--or at least excludes you from being good, then that would mean the ENTIRE Order is in the same boat, too.

Or have we forgotten poor Yukyuk so soon?
1) What's with the scare quotes?
2) The only character who actually enslaved Yukyuk was Vaarsuvius. Who was never good. And Belkar tortured him. Again: Never good. The other four members of the Order should have felt obligated to intervene, but Rich has a thing about not needing to intervene, unfortunately. If you wish to assert that Serini shares a moral standing with Vaarsuvius, that will not be the highest compliment she's ever received.

[Liquor Box]

I think it's good to distinguish "makes you evil" from "is an evil act."

And as far as Yukyuk goes, I think the point where Belkar and V let Mr. Scruffy use his mouth as a litter box was certainly beyond anything that could be considered a necessary evil for the mission. (Sure, I laughed, but that's not the point.)

This is true. When Roy's actions were audited, several of his actions were judged not good (maybe evil?) but on balance it wasn't enough to prevent him having a good alignment.

Some of Miko's actions weren't good either, but she remained of good alignment until her final act tipped the balance to her being evil. V's familiacide was generally judged as evil too, but wasn't enough to make him evil I don't think.

So it's hard to say that a character categorically is good or evil or otherwise (unless the Giant or comic has explicitly told us), instead we can judge the acts we see.

[Bookwyrm13]

I mean, V has a near genocide in their résumé, and Yukyuk attacked the group first, whereas we have no evidence whatsoever that Calder attacked them first. I have no beef with Serini; my beef is with bondage and oppression, as quite a few of the forumites may well recall.

We have no evidence whatsoever that Calder didn't attack them first, and...actually, I'm going to push back, actually--we don't have specific hard evidence that he attacked first, but we do have evidence as to the idea that such behavior would be in character for him. Namely, him LITERALLY ATTACKING THE ORDER FIRST IN THIS STRIP.

And say, for the sake of argument, I believe you that you specifically have no beef with Serini, trust me--many people do. Many people on these forums have, since her present-day introduction, been bending over backward to justify what is transparently just an instinctual dislike of her and jumping on every bit of nuance she's given as a reason why there's no WAY she could possibly be Good-aligned.

Which is fine. I could not care less about whatever alignment sticker is slapped on a character, and no one is obligated to like a specific character. But I'm begging people to please, if they're going to make arguments like that, be consistent with them. If you think Serini can't possibly be Good-aligned after doing this thing that she has already expressed regret for doing, in circumstances meant to protect the world, then apply the same logic to the Order (excepting, perhaps, Roy and Durkon, who at least expressed a modicum of distaste for it) when they enslaved their own enemy.

Yes, Yukyuk attacked them first, but--in your own words, "You kill or you imprison someone like that. What you do not do is force them into combat-based slavery. The best-case scenario for Serini here is that she's acting like Amanda Waller from Suicide Squad, and Waller is at best a morally gray character (though anyone that knows the risk people like her represent and the type of person she truly is should know better than call her morally gray)."

[Argis13]

The walls in the room look damaged. Seems like Calder has been able to rage at their cage for a while now.

Those scorch marks might also be also from when Calder was first imprisoned. Interior decoration seems to be low on Serini's to-do list, and the damage appears purely cosmetic.


Another update, another set of forum posts taking any possible excuse to interpret Serini in the worst light possible.

If "enslaving" someone, even someone evil, and using them for your own (ultimately good) purposes makes you evil--or at least excludes you from being good, then that would mean the ENTIRE Order is in the same boat, too.

Or have we forgotten poor Yukyuk so soon?

It feels different when you capture someone who's actively sought to hurt you, then, oh well, might as well get the full use out the pair of hands going to waste, rather than actively running an operation where the manner in which it achieves its goals is by enslaving people, and actively going on missions to round up people to enslave. From a utilitarian perspective, the actions on a slave-by-slave basis might be morally equlivalant, once the context of the former goes from "what is strictly required for immediate self-defense," but the latter is run by a worse person, not to forget the vastly larger scale.*

Also, even if the two situations were identical, this still isn't an argument. Just because the Heroes did something does not make it acceptable, and pointing it out in comic we are discussing does not make a person a hypocrite. Speaking strictly to the validity of the argument, it is a perfectly legitimate stance to believe that a single act of enslavement, no matter the context, no matter how to seek to redeem yourself, forever stains you.

Finally, even Serini regrets doing so, and has changed her stance on this matter. Even if we accepted it was necessary to defend the gates, it would still be an incredibly awful thing to do to people. And, as far as I can tell, in her best judgement, she seems to believe that wasn't necessary: whatever additional delay the press-ganged monsters provided so that she could have the time call in the Calvary is not worth the risk of the press-ganged monsters turning on her and the moral cost of the slave-soldiers.

*Edit: Think of the difference between first and second degree murder. It's a little bit like that.

[Bookwyrm13]

1) What's with the scare quotes?
2) The only character who actually enslaved Yukyuk was Vaarsuvius. Who was never good. And Belkar tortured him. Again: Never good. The other four members of the Order should have felt obligated to intervene, but Rich has a thing about not needing to intervene, unfortunately. If you wish to assert that Serini shares a moral standing with Vaarsuvius, that will not be the highest compliment she's ever received.

The scare quotes are because I think the term 'enslavement' is somewhat loaded and possibly not fair to the situation, as others have argued earlier in the forum. I'm not really interested in arguing the semantics of it regardless, so I'm using that terminology.

As for V being the only slave-master...nonsense. Vaarsuvius cast the spell, but Haley let him take traps that should have been hers to take. And the others still went along with it.

And I'm not arguing Vaarsuvius or Belkar were good, I'm arguing that they're nuanced and interesting characters who mostly do the best with the information they have (well, Vaarsuvius, anyway. Yeah Belkar's just Belkar.)

I extend Serini the same charitability. And I don't hold her to different standards than the main characters--nor do I mock the idea that she MIGHT be Good-aligned despite doing a bad act, even though her reason is literally trying to save the world, and V and B's reasons were...dot dot dot...rule of funny?

[The_Weirdo]

We have no evidence whatsoever that Calder didn't attack them first, and...actually, I'm going to push back, actually--we don't have specific hard evidence that he attacked first, but we do have evidence as to the idea that such behavior would be in character for him. Namely, him LITERALLY ATTACKING THE ORDER FIRST IN THIS STRIP.

And say, for the sake of argument, I believe you that you specifically have no beef with Serini, trust me--many people do. Many people on these forums have, since her present-day introduction, been bending over backward to justify what is transparently just an instinctual dislike of her and jumping on every bit of nuance she's given as a reason why there's no WAY she could possibly be Good-aligned.

Which is fine. I could not care less about whatever alignment sticker is slapped on a character, and no one is obligated to like a specific character. But I'm begging people to please, if they're going to make arguments like that, be consistent with them. If you think Serini can't possibly be Good-aligned after doing this thing that she has already expressed regret for doing, in circumstances meant to protect the world, then apply the same logic to the Order (excepting, perhaps, Roy and Durkon, who at least expressed a modicum of distaste for it) when they enslaved their own enemy.

Yes, Yukyuk attacked them first, but--in your own words, "You kill or you imprison someone like that. What you do not do is force them into combat-based slavery. The best-case scenario for Serini here is that she's acting like Amanda Waller from Suicide Squad, and Waller is at best a morally gray character (though anyone that knows the risk people like her represent and the type of person she truly is should know better than call her morally gray)."

Sure. And, again, those were the actions of Vaarsuvius and Belkar; Vaarsuvius was personally miffed at Yukyuk; as for Belkar, Yukyuk shot his cat. Neither of them seem to be exactly north of Neutral there, but, moreover, forcing someone into service for Dominate Person days and forcing them into it for decades are two different things. And, again, neither V nor Belkar are above Neutral and, again, we have no proof that the dragon initiated the first combat with Serini, as opposed to "lived in a cave, Serini sought him out to press him into service, THEN he attacked her".

I was the guy that defended Hilgya to the bitter end in these threads; trust me, it's not a group thing in my case.

And on a practical note, her non-volunteer workforce is now understandably, how shall I put it, a wee bit miffed and not unwilling to drive home his feelings on the matter in rather intense fashion.

Or, to put it another way, not-too-bright epic Rogue now has a dragon gunning for her because she put him there.

[Ruck]

Some of Miko's actions weren't good either, but she remained of good alignment until her final act tipped the balance to her being evil.

The smashing of the gate? I don't think we have any evidence that tipped her to evil. (I don't see how Windstriker would visit her in the afterlife if she was in an Evil one, besides.) Killing Shojo was an undoubtedly evil act, but I don't think we can even say it definitely changed her alignment, only that it definitely caused her to lose her paladinhood.

(I do think Miko was not Lawful Good by nature; if she'd been left to her own devices rather than taken in by Shojo, she might have been a Chaotic Neutral unstable loner / mercenary type.)


V's familiacide was generally judged as evil too, but wasn't enough to make him evil I don't think.

Jury's still out on that one. V is True Neutral by word of author, but based on other things Rich has said, I think "true neutral" more describes their perspective on the world vs. how V will be judged at the end of their life.


So it's hard to say that a character categorically is good or evil or otherwise (unless the Giant or comic has explicitly told us), instead we can judge the acts we see.

Sure.

And I think it's worth noting something I've touched on before, that there's a difference between prescriptive and descriptive alignment. When Rich talked about how he designed Shojo as Chaotic Good, that's prescriptive-- describing the perspective through which he sees the world and why he takes the actions he does. The deva's judgment of Roy and the sum total of the actions of his life would be descriptive-- a description not of how a character views the world, but how they actually acted in it in their life.

[KorvinStarmast]

(Sure, I laughed, but that's not the point.) Actually, that was the point. It was a joke and you laughed.
(Sick joke? Yes, but for sure consistent with Belkar as a character up to that point).

[Liquor Box]

The smashing of the gate? I don't think we have any evidence that tipped her to evil. (I don't see how Windstriker would visit her in the afterlife if she was in an Evil one, besides.) Killing Shojo was an undoubtedly evil act, but I don't think we can even say it definitely changed her alignment, only that it definitely caused her to lose her paladinhood.

(I do think Miko was not Lawful Good by nature; if she'd been left to her own devices rather than taken in by Shojo, she might have been a Chaotic Neutral unstable loner / mercenary type.)

Sorry, I didn;t mean that Miko was evil, I meant not good such that she fell from being a paladin. I thought it was killing Shojo which tipped her over. I haven't really argued Miko's alignment, or thought about it. I was just going to what I thought was a widely accepted example, so I may well be wrong here.


Jury's still out on that one. V is True Neutral by word of author, but based on other things Rich has said, I think "true neutral" more describes their perspective on the world vs. how V will be judged at the end of their life.
Possibly right. I had thought the general consensus on the forum was that V remained neutral despite the obvious evil of familiscide. Again, might be wrong.


Sure.

And I think it's worth noting something I've touched on before, that there's a difference between prescriptive and descriptive alignment. When Rich talked about how he designed Shojo as Chaotic Good, that's prescriptive-- describing the perspective through which he sees the world and why he takes the actions he does. The deva's judgment of Roy and the sum total of the actions of his life would be descriptive-- a description not of how a character views the world, but how they actually acted in it in their life.
I'm not sure if I completely understand you here. Each character does have a signle alignment at any given point. Do you think that their alignment represents their perspective (prescriptive) or a balanced judgment of their actions (descriptive)?

[Peelee]

we have no evidence whatsoever that Calder attacked them first.


There's no mention of him doing anything bad before being imprisoned, and even if you assume he did (due to his redness and evil demeanour), there's no indication that Serini's purpose was punishment.

Indeed, you have both correctly noticed that we did not get a full expository info-dump in the first few seconds of meeting Calder and have virtually no information. You both also immediately jumped to villifying Serini (one significantly more than the other, to no surprise) based on the aforementioned virtually no information.

Me, i don't like it but I'm going ro reserve condemnation until a little more is known. But maybe I'm just weird like that.

Some of Miko's actions weren't good either, but she remained of good alignment until her final act tipped the balance to her being evil.

That can't be known. Even ignoring that there is an entire alignment between Good and Evil, which is highly unlikely to be skipped entirely in a moment, paladins dont fall for becoming Evil. They have specific criteria they fall for: ceasing to be lawful good, willfully committing an evil act, or who grossly violating the code of conduct. Of these three criteria, all three fit her final action, so there is little evidence that she even ceased to be Good, let alone became Evil (which would be a massive shift anyway because, as mentioned, would require skipping the entirety of Neutral).