Dream Elementals: How do they work?

[Ruethgar]

Dragon 287 gave us the dysfunction of the Dream Elementals. Initially I was excited to utilize the language of Summon Monster and Improved Familiar to get me some wide variety of Any Elemental(Small/Medium) on a dream based character. But then I saw the whole nul Wisdom score. To my knowledge they are the only creatures that have nul Wis but the article doesn’t really indicate how that works. The nearest analog I could figure would be like a haunting where the ghosts repeat the same event, oblivious to anything around them, but in this case I guess the last dream they had. Would be fine for the summons, basically just make them wisdom damage traps following a logical, if random path.

But for a familiar? They explicitly get the ability to communicate, and this bypasses mindlessness for some familiar options so I feel like it probably would bypass wisdomlessness here? But then do they only have a sense of the actual world in relation to that communication?

[ShurikVch]

Dysfunctional Rules VI: Magic Circle Against Errata (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=18404652&postcount=393):

So, after a bit of research I discovered the Elemental Dream Creature template from Dragon Magazine 287.

It, among other things, makes the templated creature an incorporeal elemental.. with no wisdom score.

Which means that it is, in fact, an object. It's a moving, talking, breathing object- but still one.

It may not be able to distinguish between itself and reality, or perceive things at all, but that won't stop it from comforting you with it's wisdom damaging touch.
SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities):

Wisdom
Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

Charisma
Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

[Ruethgar]

I would think that specific of the template trumps general rules of non-abilities in that they would retain their Charisma, though they would still probably be an object. They would be completely oblivious to outside stimuli but still aware of themselves and their minds. So you might be able to alter their memories to “talk” to them or maybe use telepathy. Strange… things.

Maybe there’s a way to force a Wis score on them, but seems a bit convoluted to use them.

[Tzardok]

My opinion is to just disregard the non-ability Wisdom. It's true that the template does overwrite the general rule, but it's also true that not even the article that introduced it defines what actually the rules attached to "No Wisdom" are. For example creatures without Dex automatically fail Reflex saves, while creatures without Con are immune to (most) effects that require Fortitude saves. Which one, if any, applies to creatures without Wis? No idea, and if I had to guess the author had no idea either. They just thought it was neat to give an unusual non-ability.

So, my simple advice: ignore it. Either have the dream elemental creature keep it's Wisdom score, or if you like the idea that they are kinda unmoored and their attention isn't there most of the time, reduce it to 1 (or by whatever amount you feel appropriate).

[Beni-Kujaku]

It seems pretty clear, both from the "creatures born from the dreams of children and the nightmares of kings" and "a creature that has its Wisdom reduced to 0 by a dream element creature retreats in a comatose state, plagued by the vicious visions of the elemental plane of dreams", that the absence of Wisdom means that a dream element creature does not see or perceive "reality", and instead enacts the plot of the dream that gave it birth, attacking creatures only if its motherdream was of a fight or danger.
My interpretation would be that, if you summon a dream element creature, it is not controlled by you, and instead acts according to its motherdream (though maybe without hurting its summoner), which the DM would choose according to the nature of the base creature.
Mechanically, I don't think not having Wis does anything except set your Wis modifier to +0 for the purpose of Will saves and making it fail any skill check based on Wis.

[ShurikVch]

Dragon 287 gave us the dysfunction of the Dream Elementals. Initially I was excited to utilize the language of Summon Monster and Improved Familiar to get me some wide variety of Any Elemental(Small/Medium) on a dream based character.
Please, excuse me, but how the heck you was going to get it?

I mean: OK, for Summon Monster you at least could use optional rules from "The Summoner's Circle" article (Dragon #302)
But Familiars are closed list - yo can't just pick anything random there (about the only variant is the "Familiar Mount" from High One Warrior-Wizard Substitution Level with Windrider PrC - but how you would ride something Incorporeal? :smallconfused:)

If it's the "Dream" part which interested you - then there are Dreamshadow (Towers of High Sorcery) and Nightmare Creature (Book of Broken Dreams) templates

[Remuko]

Please, excuse me, but how the heck you was going to get it?

But Familiars are closed list - yo can't just pick anything random there

For improved Familiar there is a table and then after that table it says


The list in the table above presents only a few possible improved familiars. Almost any creature of the same general size and power as those on the list makes a suitable familiar. Nor is the master’s alignment the only possible categorization. For instance, improved familiars could be assigned by the master’s creature type or subtype, as shown below.

and this second table has small elementals on it explicitly, suggesting small elementals are suitable for familiars with the improved familiar feat, and thus, OP seems to be thinking a Small Dream Elemental would be too.

[Ruethgar]

Any Small Elementals are allowed for both Improved Familiar and Summon Monster II(and medium IV). Though I’m sure there is probably a rule somewhere saying no templates, I was unable to find it in my excitement for the idea of making a dream based character.

For the specific case of the character, I decided to just Bestow Curse them with -2 Wisdom. It should technically set their Wisdom to 1 since there aren’t rules for immunity to such things like with nul Con. I did something similar with Tree Shape, Expansion and Expeditious Retreat.

Good enough if a bit of an extra step, plus I can twist having bestow curse as something dream-like. 50% chance to lose your turn? That’s because you’re day dreaming ever since the fight with that dreamancer. -6 Wisdom, you’re loosing touch with what’s real and what’s dream.

[Inevitability]

Anyone suggesting the elementals mechanically play out the events of their dream is confusing a wisdom nonability for an intelligence nonability. The ability to learn, to adapt to changing circumstances, to deviate from instinct: that's all intelligence, not wisdom, suggesting that a dream elemental has those capabilities normally.

Instead, a wisdom nonability represents a lack of 'willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition, [...] being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings'. So we need to imagine a creature that can learn and reason, arguably can display force of personality and persuasiveness (depending on whether you decide they do or do not have charisma), but cannot perceive its surroundings or display common sense or willpower.

Which to me sounds a lot like a ChatGPT-style generative AI: utterly nonagentic, lacking any senses in the conventional meaning of the word, yet capable of limited reasoning, displaying different responses to different stimuli, and even capable of producing (theoretically) persuasive arguments if prompted to. Even the 'unable to distinguish between itself and the rest of reality' bit works: many LLMs simply base every output word on the X words earlier in the conversation, whether those were written by a human or themselves.

So what would a dream elemental act like? Passive, unless somehow stirred to action by the humans around it, capable of independent reasoning but not of independent impetus. A particular dream elemental is cast into a sort of role by the dream it springs from, and cannot act outside that role, but can reason beyond the dreamer's own intelligence. Compare this to a zombie, which can independently motivate itself (leave one without orders and it'll seek out mortals to kill) but cannot reason or learn even when doing so would help accomplish those goals (put an illusion of a bridge over a chasm, and a whole line of zombies will happily walk into the abyss).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Anything without a Wis score is an object, so the spell animate objects should grant it a Wis and Cha score both. And since elementals are not made from magical materials, that might qualify. Then you can awaken construct it, I guess.

Or maybe you could get a ghost or a fiend of possession to haunt it?

[Chronos]

Interestingly, the rules don't rule out the possibility of an object having an Int score. So you could model an intelligent computer as an object (though it still wouldn't have a Cha score).

[Inevitability]

Interestingly, the rules don't rule out the possibility of an object having an Int score. So you could model an intelligent computer as an object (though it still wouldn't have a Cha score).

Star Wars Saga Edition (very closely based on 3rd edition) handles vehicles as creatures without wisdom/charisma but with intelligence, iirc. It measures the quality of onboard weapons/computer systems, as you'd expect.

[Tzardok]

Anyone suggesting the elementals mechanically play out the events of their dream is confusing a wisdom nonability for an intelligence nonability. The ability to learn, to adapt to changing circumstances, to deviate from instinct: that's all intelligence, not wisdom, suggesting that a dream elemental has those capabilities normally.

Instead, a wisdom nonability represents a lack of 'willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition, [...] being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings'. So we need to imagine a creature that can learn and reason, arguably can display force of personality and persuasiveness (depending on whether you decide they do or do not have charisma), but cannot perceive its surroundings or display common sense or willpower.

Which to me sounds a lot like a ChatGPT-style generative AI: utterly nonagentic, lacking any senses in the conventional meaning of the word, yet capable of limited reasoning, displaying different responses to different stimuli, and even capable of producing (theoretically) persuasive arguments if prompted to. Even the 'unable to distinguish between itself and the rest of reality' bit works: many LLMs simply base every output word on the X words earlier in the conversation, whether those were written by a human or themselves.

So what would a dream elemental act like? Passive, unless somehow stirred to action by the humans around it, capable of independent reasoning but not of independent impetus. A particular dream elemental is cast into a sort of role by the dream it springs from, and cannot act outside that role, but can reason beyond the dreamer's own intelligence. Compare this to a zombie, which can independently motivate itself (leave one without orders and it'll seek out mortals to kill) but cannot reason or learn even when doing so would help accomplish those goals (put an illusion of a bridge over a chasm, and a whole line of zombies will happily walk into the abyss).

This is a very insightful breakdown of what a creature with no Wis may be like. Do you have a similiar concept of a creature without Cha, per chance?

[Inevitability]

This is a very insightful breakdown of what a creature with no Wis may be like. Do you have a similiar concept of a creature without Cha, per chance?

Charisma can broadly be defined as 'ability to assert yourself'. This includes the obvious cases of bluffing and intimidating others, but it also measures your ability to impose your will on animals or even inanimate objects (UMD is cha-based). This stretches into the unrealistic at times, but that's fine; this is D&D and every ability has blatantly unrealistic applications. Notably, charisma-based magic tends to be spontaneous, emotional, and innate (most explicitly in wilders and bards, but sorcerers, warlocks, favored souls etc are all much less formalized than clerics and wizards).

Charisma is nearly never a measure of defensive willpower (as in: resisting outside influence on you), which is generally wisdom's purview. That said, there's a few interesting cases where it is, and those are worth looking into. They are commanding a charmed creature to do things it wouldn't ordinarily do (but not commanding a dominated creature to do the same), and resisting orders if you're a bound outsider or elemental.

In both cases, it's worth noting that the creature using charisma defensively has necessarily already failed a Will save to end up in this position. Willpower-as-measured-by-wisdom has failed it, its outer mental defenses were evidently not up to snuff. In the case of Charm Person, it already has an outside force running amok in its core personality, changing hated foes to dear friends. In the case of Planar Binding, it's a bit less explicit but c'mon, with a sufficient roll you could force a marilith to freely serve you for days on end and you think that's its free choice? Both charisma checks clearly represent your own force of personality trying to roughly stand up against someone else's desires on a level beyond will.

("...why don't compulsions let you make a similar opposed check?" Because dominate person could not care less about your desires: it's roughly seizing control of your mind and body by cutting your personality out of the loop entirely.)

(...okay, then why don't charms let you make a save to overcome an unacceptable order with sheer force of will? Because sheer force of will is useless if someone has already started making changes to what you want. You can't will yourself out of someone deciding what ends your will is turned towards.)

So what's our no-charisma creature like? Well, unlike the no-wis creature it's got functioning senses and an ability to independently act: but at the same time, it lacks any reason to independently act. It cannot assert itself because there's nothing to assert, real or simulated. A no-charisma creature has no personality, it may have knowledge but no beliefs, it will display either object-like passivity or act like an extension of its creator. It is the most tool-like out of any of the nonabilities, and the main thing distinguishing it from actual tools is its ability to perceive the world around it and process that information intelligently. Also, in the world of D&D the fact that it has a disused sense of self instead of lacking one entirely matters beyond the philosophical level: a no-cha creature could be Charmed to make it do things - its nonexistent value system could be overwritten effortlessly, once the outer mental defenses are bypassed.

[Tzardok]

Thank you. That was informative and inspiring. :smallsmile: