Discussion: Binder as a Warlock Patron?

[WarrentheHero]

The Binder class from 3.5 Tome of Magic is one of my all-time favorite classes, conceptually. It feels like a true occultist. For those that don't know, the concept of the Binder is that there are these things called Vestiges: cast-outs with no place in the multiverse such as dead gods, champions who died but are banished from the afterlife, and other weird sort of in-between entities. These Vestiges desperately want to experience the real world again, rather than the timeless void they are trapped in, so if you can learn how to call one, you can make a deal and gain some power, in exchange for it inhabiting a sliver of your soul to experience the real world, slightly altering your body and personality to match its own as it does.

Several years ago, there was a huge project on this forum to create the Binder as a full class (which I think was then rewritten for Mage Hand Press?). I like the Binder that we built together a lot, but it does have some clunk to it, and I wonder:

How would Binder fare as a Warlock Patron?

My initial thought was to give a list of Vestiges you could Bind to, in addition to more standard subclass features, but that feels like it becomes unwieldy very quickly. You're taking the already options-heavy Warlock and adding two dozen Vestiges to the mix, each with three to five small abilities. Then I considered making fewer Vestiges with larger ability profiles, so there's fewer choices to worry about but you still get to choose who you Bind for the day, but that still feels like it might be pushing the power budget.

I have a bunch of other ideas for Binder-as-Warlock that I haven't sat down to work out more fully, but I wonder what the community here thinks: do you think a Binder can be done as a Warlock subclass and still feel like a Binder without pushing the complexity too far or the power too high? Or is it too unique in its own concept to be anything less than a base class?

[Just to Browse]

It's hard for me to see the Binder as anything other than a base class, mostly for the reasons you've noted: I'd really want to commit to the idea by offering lots of vestiges, and that's just too much stuff to try and squeeze into a subclass.

I wonder if there's room for a 5e variant class. Somehow keeping some elements of cantrips, subclasses, pact boons, but getting rid of the spellcasting in favor of a vestige mechanic?... even then, it feels like it would be a little too hack-y. Maybe the best option is trying to redesign / streamline other 5e binder homebrews.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I think the system of "Outer Vestiges" works well as a patron.

Here's a barbarian subclass with 8 vestige options (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sb_N1TtVhg6D9ltD7RgkTmgReMFz08UtRO-B3nKd8gk/edit?usp=sharing). It could be easily retooled to account for the power of spells. Let me take a shot.

Warlock redux (I'll use 2024 UA7 Warlock as the base).
Note: the author strongly encourages the creation of many additional Vestiges based on player and non player characters from previous campaigns or other sources of inspiration. That said, he also recommends you swap out the vestiges on the list below for your favorites to prevent a spoiling for choice that can paralyze some players.

Bonus Spells
3 Mind Sliver, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, See Invisible, Detect Thoughts
5 Magic Circle, Summon Shadow
7 Death Ward, Dream
9 Planar Binding, Legend Lore

Vestige Binding
Beginning at 3rd level you learn of 2 Vestiges, spirits lost in primordial darkness or the spaces between existence and oblivion, and how to perform a ritual that creates a space in your mind spirits can inhabit. The Ritual requires the same material components as Find Familiar but they are not consumed. When the ritual is complete you can bind a Vestige to yourself. Once bound, these spirits can share their power with you in exchange for experiencing reality anew.

Whenever you complete a long or short rest you can call a Vestige you know or simply announce to the void there's a vacancy, in which case roll 1d8 to determine the Vestige called. Once you have bound a Vestige it becomes known to you and remains bound until you dismiss it as an action or bind another. You may only have one Vestige bound to you at a time.

Vestige Table
1. The Dauntless Warrior
2. The Forgotten Prince
3. The Dancing Fool
4. The Fallen Angel
5. The Wicked Architect
6. The Red Handed Betrayer
7. The Dark Star
8. The Inverted Nemesis

Each Vestige's description explains what powers you acquire while bound as well as the Vestige's Taboo and the required Atonement.

Sidebar: Vestiges and time
Vestiges do not experience time in a linear fashion. Their consciousness is fractured and unstable and unless the DM deems otherwise, the same Vestige can be bound simultaneously by many warlocks and none will know what the others are doing by way of the Vestige.

Vestige Panoply
At 6th level your bound Vestige brings with it some totemic item or creature from its life. The Vestige descriptions detail these items. Any Panoply item disappears when the vestige is no longer bound.

Vestige Sorcery
Beginning at 10th level your bound Vestige grants you access to a specific spell. The spell's power is enhanced in some manner when you use a Pact slot to cast it.

Twin Soul
At 14th level you can perform an abbreviated form of your binding ritual as a bonus action. If you are currently bound to a Vestige you become bound to both for 1 minute and enjoy the benefits of each. At the end of one minute you choose which Vestige will remain bound. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma Modifier and regain all uses when you complete a long rest.

Vestiges
Vestiges are spirits of once mighty beings from far flung histories and realms. Despite their shattered sense of self which affords them the hollow identity of an archetype or legend, they have enough persona that they can be offended or appeased.

Taboos
These are proscribed behaviors specific to each Vestige.


The soul of a warrior lost to time after sacrificing their existence to end a cosmic threat. This entity stood tirelessly resolute in the face of his foes with his trusty steed at his side.
Taboo. You may not harm Beasts
Curse. You gain vulnerability to natural weapon attacks and poison
Atonement. You must return the beast or another creature of the same or greater size to the earth (burying a dead body takes 2 hours + 2 per size above medium).
Panoply: Mighty Steed. You can cast Find Steed as a Paladin as an action. You may only have one steed in existence at a time.
Vestige Sorcery. You can cast the spell Enlarge/Reduce as an action. When you cast the spell with a Warlock spell slot the target can become huge regardless of original size, increasing its reach by 5 feet.


The Forgotten Prince was one of the first beings to experience ambition. Son to the first King but not the heir, they wrought havoc at court in an effort to undermine their sibling and seize the crown. That unfulfilled desire to lord over others haunted the entity long after the first mortal names were lost to time. It grants abilities related to rule by division and the appearance of Royalty.
Taboo. You cannot accept orders (you can choose to comply with requests)
Curse. Any action you take without permission from another has disadvantage
Atonement. You must serve a hostile creature for 1 round. If you are told to attack an ally you can make an unarmed attack and deal minimal damage.
Panoply: The Royal Cape. When you bind this Vestige you may equip this billowing, regal garment which wards you against harsh climate, mental assault, and has numerous pockets (This item functions as a Handy Haversack and grants resistance to Cold and Psychic damage.)
Vestige Sorcery. You have the spell Confusion prepared. When you cast this spell with a Pact Slot targets roll 1d8 to determine their behavior instead of 1d10.


This monster was hurled from reality to prevent its predation on the innocent. Why are you letting it back in?
Taboo. You can offer no comfort (cannot heal, stabilize ally, or offer sympathy)
Curse. You must dance when you move, reducing your speed by half.
Atonement. You must make an ally laugh at an enemy.
Panoply: Infernal Umbrella. When you bind this Vestige you may equip this umbrella. It functions as a magical Rapier that deals 1d8 piercing damage with the light and finesse properties and a bonus to attack and damage equal to half your Proficiency bonus rounded down. It grants advantage on Acrobatics checks and resistance to Thunder and Lightning damage. When you or a creature you’re adjacent to you is the subject of an area effect, you can use your reaction to interpose the umbrella. Doing so adds a +2 to both your saving throws and neither of you take any damage on a success. You can make the Infernal Umbrella your Pact weapon.
Vestige Sorcery. You have Tasha's Hideous Laughter prepared. When you cast it with a Pact Slot it targets a number of creatures equal to the level of the spell slot.


The Fallen Angel was banished from the realm of its deity and performed innumerable crimes in its bitterness. Now it clings to its former nature and seeks penance in the hope of being restored.
Taboo. Neither you nor creatures conjured or created by your spells can kill a living creature
Curse. Your wounds cannot be healed
Atonement. You must fail a death saving throw
Panoply: The Essential Dram. This silver and crystal flask grants its bearer celestial resistances to necrotic and radiant damage while carried. It is filled with a single dose of a miracle elixir that restores the newly dead to life (as Revivify). After this liquid has been used the flask transforms any liquid placed in it into a Tier appropriate Healing Potion after your next short rest.
Vestige Sorcery. You have the spell Mass Cure Wounds prepared. When you cast this spell with a Pact Slot, you treat all of the dice as if they'd rolled their maximum result.


The Wicked Architect is believed to have built the first dungeon. Miserly and afraid of having his hoard stolen, the Architect grants powers related to his role as a Wizard and Dungeons.
Taboo. You cannot take what isn’t given to you freely. (you can’t knowingly steal or even pick up seemingly lost or abandoned items. You can’t even buy things.)
Curse. Every object you use will break after its first use and you lose attunement to any magic items you possess.
Atonement. You must bury everything you are carrying (this takes an hour, either digging the hole or an hour inventorying items before sealing them in a tomb etc, then another hour to get it all back, digging it up or counting it as it's recovered).
Panoply: Wand of Wonder When you bind this Vestige you can equip a Wand that lets you cast a Wizard cantrip of your choosing. It also has 6 charges. Choose a Wizard spell of up to 2nd level. Casting that spell with the Wand requires a number of charges equal to its level.
Vestige Sorcery. You have the spell Wall of Stone prepared. When you cast this spell with a Pact Slot the 10x10 foot panels can be formed on any surface and do not have to be linked. Complex shapes such as sculptures or deadly spikes that deal 1d8 damage to a creature that enters a space adjacent to the wall can protrude from one of their surfaces.


Believed to have betrayed a god, this warrior eventually became a vampire. Its powers are related to its cursed nature as a betrayer and undead.
Taboo. You cannot speak truth (though your lies can be painfully obvious)
Curse. You treat every humanoid as a potential threat and are Frightened of them.
Atonement. You must catch a foe unaware to regain the upper hand (attack from stealth)
Panoply: The Bloody Blade. When the Vestige is bound you can equip this magical longsword. Famed for lopping off the hand of its bearer’s master, the Bloody blade is a magical longsword crusted with dried blood. A creature hit by the Bloody Blade must make a Constitution saving throw against your spell DC or be unable to cast spells until the beginning of your next turn and has disadvantage on Concentration saving throws. A creature that succeeds on this save becomes immune to this effect until the following dusk. You can make the bloody blade your pact weapon.
Vestige Sorcery. You have the spell Vampiric Touch prepared. When you cast the spell with a Pact Slot you can make the granted Touch attack as a bonus action for the duration.


One of the infinite multitudes, it was the first to dim and disappear from the eyes of gods and mortals. As one of the first lights to shine on existence, it now lingers in darkness, granting its Host powers akin to those of other better known stars in the dark between.
Taboo. Don’t let direct sunlight touch your skin
Curse. You gain Sunlight sensitivity
Atonement. Blind yourself for 1 hour
Panoply: The Dead Star Hammer. When the Vestige is bound you can equip a floating orb of absolute darkness that hovers in your space when not in use. It is a simple melee weapon that deals 1d10 force damage with the Heavy and Reach properties. It requires no hands to wield and uses your Charisma bonus in place of Strength to determine your bonus to attack and damage. The weapon gains a bonus to attack and damage equal to half your Proficiency bonus rounded down. You can make the Dead Star Hammer your Pact Weapon.
Vestige Sorcery. You have the Armor of Agathys spell prepared. When you cast it with a Pact Slot you can target 3 creatures within 30 feet.


A rival to the first hero. The Inverted Nemesis was a hero rivaling that of the first, but their talents lay at odds. Frustrated, the Inverted Nemesis fell to villainy and created a league of wicked beings and minions to harass that first hero. A treacherous path of villainy and redemption was walked and echoes throughout time as others met their matches. The Inverted Nemesis grants powers pertaining to hindrance of a foe and directing the forgotten spirits of their wicked minions to slay their targets.
Taboo. You must accept every spoken challenge
Curse. You have disadvantage on Wisdom Saving throws
Atonement. You must name a rival and best them in a test of their choosing: strength, wits, or guile. If they throw the test it is invalid and the Taboo Curse persists.
Panoply: The Mirrored Shield. When the Vestige is bound you can also equip a magical round shield polished to a mirror finish. You are considered Trained in the use of this shield. When you cast a spell using a Pact Slot the shield grants a bonus to your saving throws equal to the slot's level until the end of your next turn.
Vestige Sorcery. You have the Steel Wind Strike spell prepared. When you cast the spell with a Pact Slot it ignores any resistances or immunities and you can reroll the damage and choose the roll you prefer.

[LibraryOgre]

So, if I were to do a Binder, it would not be that you have a bunch of Vestiges as patrons, but a bunch of vestiges as invocations, and that your "patron" abilities would be flexibility to choose things.

I'll fart around with it a bit, try to post something.

Fart fart fart fe fart fart

Pact: Binder

Rather than form a pact with a singular entity, a binder forms many pacts, drawing power from several different vestiges... beings of great power, who are nonetheless not quite divine... or even understandable by any save another binder

Expanded Spell List
1st Find Familiar, Sanctuary
2nd Augury, Nystul's Magic Aura
3rd Phantom Steed, Speak with Dead
4th Conjure Minor Elementals, Conjure Woodland Beings
5th Commune, Dispel Evil and Good

(Rationale: Each of these deals directly with spirits or otherworldly beings; Find Familiar and Phantom Steed might be viewed as extremely minor vestiges... vestigal vestiges... that you can bind for a short time. I also limited it to spells from the PHB)

1st The Binder gains the spell Protection from Evil and Good, which they may cast normally with a spell slot, or as a ritual affecting only themselves. This does not count against the Warlock spells they know. Additionally, they gain proficiency in Arcana, and double their proficiency bonus when dealing with eldritch symbols, knowledge of other planes, and inhabitants of those planes. Additionally, binders may, when they gain the Attribute Improvement class feature, replace a warlock cantrip with another, change their choice of Pact Boon, or, if they have the ability, replace one of their spells gained through the Mystic Arcanum feature with another warlock spell of the same level. If one of these changes makes them ineligible for some of their current invocations (eg they no longer know Eldritch Blast, or they no longer have Pact of the Blade), they must change those invocations, as well.

(Rationale: They summon creatures from beyond, they need to be able to protect themselves. They summon creatures from beyond, so they need to know about creatures from beyond. The last bit is the optional feature of Eldritch Versatility from Tasha's; it seems appropriate that it be a core part of "I summon a variety of weird things and make deals with them.")

6th Variable Binding: Upon completing a long rest, a Binder may conclude a bargain with a Vestige, and select an Invocation for which they qualify. This is a bonus invocation, and remains until their next long rest. They may also choose to manifest the sign of any vestiges to whom they are bound, and gain advantage on a single Persuasion or Intimidation check. They may use this feature a number of times equal to their proficiency bonus, and regain spent uses each long rest.

(Rationale: They make a variety of deals; 3e vestiges lasted 24 hours, so a long rest reset seemed appropriate. The Persuasion/Intimidation bonus seemed an appropriate invocation of the signs from 3.x, and a bit of a cherry for the otherwise potent "bonus invocation of choice each day" ability.

10th Your many dealings with eldritch creature has rendered you resistant to psychic damage. When affected by the Charmed or Frightened condition, or any condition that accompanies psychic damage, you may make a saving throw each round to remove the condition, and with advantage whenever the condition would usually allow a saving throw, including the initial saving throw.

(Rationale: You deal with things of all sorts, and your mind should be shielded from them. I was tempted to straight copy the Great Old One's trait, but it seems more appropriate that they shake off conditions easily, than inflict psychic damage of their own... Acerak don't care about your puny mind)

14th Master of the Arcane: Upon reaching 14th level, you gain great insight into Mystic Arcanum. After each long rest, you may choose one additional spell, from any list, for any level of Mystic Arcanum that you may have; one spell, total, not one spell per spell level. This does not give you an additional use of that Mystic Arcanum, only an additional choice. In addition, you gain a second bonus invocation, that may be changed with each long rest, as with the 6th level power.

(Rationale: Again, this is "I can change who I am associated with"; it's some additional flexibility in extremely high level spells, without adding any high level spells. That seemed a bit weak, so a bonus Invocation seems in order).

[BerzerkerUnit]

So, if I were to do a Binder, it would not be that you have a bunch of Vestiges as patrons, but a bunch of vestiges as invocations, and that your "patron" abilities would be flexibility to choose things.

I'll fart around with it a bit, try to post something.

Fart fart fart fe fart fart

Pact: Binder

Rather than form a pact with a singular entity, a binder forms many pacts, drawing power from several different vestiges... beings of great power, who are nonetheless not quite divine... or even understandable by any save another binder...snip...

I'll have to see the new invocations before I can comment on most of this except for the level 14 feature. Is the warlock limited to Vestige invocations when choosing those bonuses, or any invocation?

Level 14 is a bonus invocation and a spell preparation. Unless there are level 14 Vestige specific invocations and they are on par with Hurl Through Hell or Limited Wish, I think you have way over valued a single spell preparation. If it was from any list it might be a big deal, but the warlock selection is so limited the bonus spell prep is practically a ribbon.

[LibraryOgre]

I'll have to see the new invocations before I can comment on most of this except for the level 14 feature. Is the warlock limited to Vestige invocations when choosing those bonuses, or any invocation?

Level 14 is a bonus invocation and a spell preparation. Unless there are level 14 Vestige specific invocations and they are on par with Hurl Through Hell or Limited Wish, I think you have way over valued a single spell preparation. If it was from any list it might be a big deal, but the warlock selection is so limited the bonus spell prep is practically a ribbon.

From any list makes a ton of sense, yeah. I don't have anything in mind for vestige-specific invocations; I leave that up to folks with more time than me.