Can red dragons dominate through a gaze?

[grandpheonix]

I went looking through my old monster manual and in conjunction with the PHB trying to figure out how the red dragon got Sunny (iykyk) to do the thing, and I didn't see anything about it other than maybe the suggestion spell, nothing with the evil, chaotic or fire subdomains spell lists explains the dominate monster effect that seems to be present... any ideas?

[Tzardok]

Red Dragons have access to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Dominate Monster is on there.

[Gurgeh]

I'd also say that the 3/day Suggestion is more than enough to explain it even before you consider the dragon's access to Sorcerer spells. It's already well established (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html) in the comic that the spell can achieve far more than it generally manages to in the rules - and more than enough to produce the result we see in 1294/1295.

[Kardwill]

But can Suggestion be used withou talking? Until Sunny breaks the circle with his gaze, all his speech bubbles are probably "thought bubbles"

That's the question : How did this dragon control sunny from the other end of the room while trapped ina circle that (at the very least) didn't allow him to speak.

[Jason]

Dominate Monster seems the most likely spell - it establishes a telepathic link and is only limited by range. It's 9th level, which would require Calder to be of the "Great Wyrm" age category.
"Old" and older red dragons also get suggestion 3 times per day, but suggestion isn't telepathic.

[Riftwolf]

My guess is an SLA can be activated while a creature is physically timelocked because they're still conscious while frozen.

[Tzardok]

There is no reason to assume that a creature in stasis is conscious. Frozen in time means frozen in time. You don't grow older, your metabolism doesn't continue to work. Why should the brain be exempt?

[Tubercular Ox]

There is no reason to assume that a creature in stasis is conscious. Frozen in time means frozen in time. You don't grow older, your metabolism doesn't continue to work. Why should the brain be exempt?

The evidence (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1295.html) is that Calder spoke in tailless, malformed speech bubbles until the panel where Sunny turns their antimagic eye on what is later revealed to be the circle containing Calder. After that, he speaks in well formed bubbles that include a tail pointing back to him.

While it's not the only option, I think it's reasonable to consider whether Calder was in a thinking-only paralysis until freed by Sunny.

If this paralysis is the same as the stasis Serini believes she locked her monsters in remains to be seen.

Anyways, I agree with Riftwolf to the extent that I think Calder triggered an SLA while physically frozen because he was still conscious.

[brian 333]

The evidence (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1295.html) is that Calder spoke in tailless, malformed speech bubbles until the panel where Sunny turns their antimagic eye on what is later revealed to be the circle containing Calder. After that, he speaks in well formed bubbles that include a tail pointing back to him.

While it's not the only option, I think it's reasonable to consider whether Calder was in a thinking-only paralysis until freed by Sunny.

If this paralysis is the same as the stasis Serini believes she locked her monsters in remains to be seen.

Anyways, I agree with Riftwolf to the extent that I think Calder triggered an SLA while physically frozen because he was still conscious.

I disagree.

I think Calder was in stasis until Sunny crossed a trigger on the bridge. At that point Sunny would have been the only one in range of Calder's spell or ability.

Calder, still confined by the second circle, lured Sunny in a redoux of the Lutey scene, hoping to attract his enemies to him rather than have them scatter, forcing him to have to hunt them down.

[Tubercular Ox]

I disagree.

I think Calder was in stasis until Sunny crossed a trigger on the bridge. At that point Sunny would have been the only one in range of Calder's spell or ability.

Calder, still confined by the second circle, lured Sunny in a redoux of the Lutey scene, hoping to attract his enemies to him rather than have them scatter, forcing him to have to hunt them down.

Before we get into a pointless argument over this, where exactly are we disagreeing?

[pearl jam]

Whether or not Calder used the ability while under stasis, but conscious, or after being released from stasis, but presumably still unable to freely move.

[Tubercular Ox]

Whether or not Calder used the ability while under stasis, but conscious, or after being released from stasis, but presumably still unable to freely move.

I feel like I could defend either position using only what I said previously.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think Calder was in stasis until Sunny crossed a trigger on the bridge. At that point Sunny would have been the only one in range of Calder's spell or ability.

Calder, still confined by the second circle, lured Sunny in a redoux of the Lutey scene, hoping to attract his enemies to him rather than have them scatter, forcing him to have to hunt them down.
Based on what we have seen "on screen" and Sunny's curiosity, this makes the most sense to me: Sunny didn't know that the bridge/arch had a "tripwire" and inadvertently tripped over it.

[Precure]

It's early to say anything conclusively.

[Riftwolf]

There is no reason to assume that a creature in stasis is conscious. Frozen in time means frozen in time. You don't grow older, your metabolism doesn't continue to work. Why should the brain be exempt?

I... I mean... That's a very large supposition posing as a definite answer you're hanging this on. We've had very little info about how the stasis traps work. So is it "Frozen in Time" like the stasis field from Red Dwarf, or "Frozen in Time" like Inertia from the Flash, or that guy who Doctor Who turned into a scarecrow in the Chameleon Arc story?
Also assuming a creature in stasis is unconscious could be precisely the oversight that Serini could be guilty of pre-trolling.

[Tzardok]

We do know how they work, or at least what spell they are based on: Temporal Stasis. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/temporalStasis.htm) The description says "suspended animation" and "for the creature time ceases to flow". What about suspended animation sounds like the brain still works even though everything else is shut down? What about "time ceases to flow" sounds like you notice any time passing?
Or for example, take the fight between V and the ancient black dragon, where V uses Time Stop. Did that look like the dragon was aware of what V did while time was stopped? I don't think so. If she did, she'd have aborted her physical attack earlier.

[Tubercular Ox]

We do know how they work, or at least what spell they are based on: Temporal Stasis. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/temporalStasis.htm) The description says "suspended animation" and "for the creature time ceases to flow". What about suspended animation sounds like the brain still works even though everything else is shut down?

While I stand by my previous statement...


I think it's reasonable to consider whether Calder was in a thinking-only paralysis until freed by Sunny.

If this paralysis is the same as the stasis Serini believes she locked her monsters in remains to be seen.

... it's interesting that the spell you link states that body functions virtually cease. It reads funny compared to the rest of the language. Possibly they were just embarrassed to say body functions cease, but they had no way to guarantee everyone would read it that way.

[Riftwolf]

We do know how they work, or at least what spell they are based on: Temporal Stasis. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/temporalStasis.htm)

Control Weather can't be used to create a targeted thunderclap.
Cone of Cold doesn't put out fires.
Antimagic Field does nothing against a forcecage.
(I can't link to the strips atm)
We know the spell as written in the rulebook but Rich has said before the rules aren't immutable laws. We don't even know if the spell used was Temporal Stasis, as Serini had access to epic magic via Dorukan and Lirian.
So we know how it'd probably work in a fully rule lawyered game of 3.5, which OOTS hasn't been at any point, and in terms of a story we won't know until a character tells us, which Calder might in future strips.
Which is why I said it was a guess.

[Tzardok]

Right, but Rich also said that the world works by 3.5 rules until proven otherwise. So until Rich or someone in the comic directly states or proves that Temporal Stasis keeps you conscious in Stickworld, we have to assume that it works like in the rules.

[Xirdus]

There is no reason to assume that a creature in stasis is conscious. Frozen in time means frozen in time. You don't grow older, your metabolism doesn't continue to work. Why should the brain be exempt?

OOTS universe has souls independent of the body. It's the souls that do the conscious thinking, not the brains (as evidenced by people remembering what happens after their deaths, if they come back to the living). It's entirely possible to have one's brain cease all activity while remaining fully conscious.

[Tzardok]

That the body has influence on what you remember and experience and what not is self-evident. Or do we have any characters that remember what happened during times they were unconscious? And don't say that if you knock people unconcious you are actually beating up the soul instead of the brain.

[ZhonLord]

Whelp, you have part of the answer now. Calder is a Mindbender, (https://dndtools.net/classes/mindbender/) which means he has the ability to telepathically influence others even if unable to use verbal or somatic components.

So what I think happened is that, much like how some of Serini's traps trigger before the intruders reach the location where the trap will go off (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1288.html), anyone who gets a certain distance across the walkway like Sunny did awakens Calder partially - enough for his telepathic abilities to start manipulating them to cross further into his space.

Then presumably the party ends up with infighting as calder gets one of them to break his stasis circle fully. And once freed, since he likes to dominate and control others, he'd immediately seek to take over anyone regardless of alignment just like he attempted on Roy.

[KorvinStarmast]

So we know how it'd probably work in a fully rule lawyered game of 3.5, which OOTS hasn't been at any point, and in terms of a story we won't know until a character tells us, which Calder might in future strips. I seem to recall something from Rich to the effect of "sometimes rules lawyered / RAW when it's funny or serves the story" ... or something like that.
A modest example (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html).

[Tubercular Ox]

A single level of Mindbender might be the most Char Op thing I've seen Rich do that wasn't openly mocking the idea.