Bhaal as a Warlock Patron

[LibraryOgre]

If Bhaal (classed a quasi-deity) were to be a warlock patron, what would you use?

[Skrum]

Like what patron mechanically? Fiend, no?

[Trask]

Definitely the Undying IMO, considering how hard he is to put away for good and all the undeath wrapped up in his domain.

[Amnestic]

From the official ones? Undead for sure.

For homebrew a while ago I picked up a 'Dead God' patron which I thought was neat. It's not my creation, and the original author seems to have deleted it, but I saved a copy (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uX7iOBYTcB7N_JZBzgUQlerBSSK0E-51/view?usp=sharing)

[LibraryOgre]

From the official ones? Undead for sure.

For homebrew a while ago I picked up a 'Dead God' patron which I thought was neat. It's not my creation, and the original author seems to have deleted it, but I saved a copy (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uX7iOBYTcB7N_JZBzgUQlerBSSK0E-51/view?usp=sharing)

Oooh, that looks good. Yoink!

To the others:

My initial thought was Undying, but the powers seemed WAY too peaceful for the Lord of Murder. Undead seemed more in line, with the form of dread being a lesser Ravager or Slayer. Also toyed with Hexblade, but I think the Dead God will be very good.

My Eldest is playing a grandchild of Bhaal; her Bhaalspawn father was ritually murdered by Bhaal cultists. She's killed three of the five who absorbed her father's soul, gotten another imprisoned, and the fifth stole her sister and ran to some nearby caves.

[RogueJK]

From the official ones? Undead for sure.

Definitely Undead.

[Schwann145]

Undead is not the one. Bhaal has zero cares about what is already dead. His entire purpose is for taking life, not concerning what happens to them afterward, and not concerning adapting their features. That's much more Myrkul's domain.

I'm going to say that Hexblade is the way to go, though you'd have to totally break the "lore" of it to make it Bhaal-themed instead of "special sentient weapon" themed.
That's easy enough though.

Not only does it shore up combat weaknesses, it offers better offensive options, as well as allowing you to turn the people you slay into a weapon to slay more people, without usurping the whole "I create undead" theme that belongs elsewhere.

[RogueJK]

Undead is not the one. Bhaal has zero cares about what is already dead. His entire purpose is for taking life, not concerning what happens to them afterward, and not concerning adapting their features. That's much more Myrkul's domain.

Ignore the name and look at the abilities:

-Transform into something scary, gain Temp HP, and instill fear
-Deal extra necrotic damage
-Harder to kill, plus necrotic damage AoE burst
-Further transformation, with damage resistance and the ability to absorb someone's HP via necrotic damage

Unlike Undying, there's not much specifically undead-focused about the Undead patron's mechanics. Rather, it could easily fit any evil/death theme.

The spell list is fairly appropriate as-is, but could even be tweaked a bit more.

[RedMage125]

If Bhaal (classed a quasi-deity) were to be a warlock patron, what would you use?

Ummm...isn't Bhaal fully alive and a full fledged deity again in 5e?

[Psyren]

I think he's aligned closest to Fiend. He utilizes imp butlers for both himself and his spawn, and his greatest gift to his spawn - the Slayer Form - turns them into demons.

I do think that Undead works really well mechanically though.

[Rukelnikov]

I think Undead is the best fit mechanically for the sole reason that its 1st lvl power can already help mimic becoming the Slayer , I don't think there's any other patron that can grant that.

[Amnestic]

Undead is not the one. Bhaal has zero cares about what is already dead. His entire purpose is for taking life, not concerning what happens to them afterward, and not concerning adapting their features.

Bhaal's domain in 5e is Death, which has Animate Dead on its spell list, so he cares at least a little. Also his entire shtick and the reason he's famous is literally coming back from the dead, so like...again, kinda fits.

Likewise, as mentioned, the abilities of the Undead patron abilities are all about fear+damage, perfect for Bhaal.


Ummm...isn't Bhaal fully alive and a full fledged deity again in 5e?

Descent into Avernus (pg. 231) specifies that the Dead Three are quasi-deities:-

While the Sundering saw the other gods of the Forgotten Realms withdraw their direct influence from the world, the Dead Three remained behind in mortal form as quasi-divine beings. While their power has diminished, they remain a formidable trio and play a malevolent role in influencing events on Faerun.

So far as I know that's the latest word on their status.

[LibraryOgre]

Ummm...isn't Bhaal fully alive and a full fledged deity again in 5e?

I'm also being kinda fuzzy on timeline. Dad was a dragonborn Bhaalspawn, but beyond that, I've not tied it to a specific year DR.

[RedMage125]

Descent into Avernus (pg. 231) specifies that the Dead Three are quasi-deities:-


So far as I know that's the latest word on their status.

That's silly, because Bane was back at full strength well before the Sundering. And nothing about the Sundering should have reduced it.

Myrkul and Bhaal, maybe. But all of the dead 3? Seems sus.

[Schwann145]

Ignore the name and look at the abilities:

-Transform into something scary, gain Temp HP, and instill fear
-Deal extra necrotic damage
-Harder to kill, plus necrotic damage AoE burst
-Further transformation, with damage resistance and the ability to absorb someone's HP via necrotic damage

Unlike Undying, there's not much specifically undead-focused about the Undead patron's mechanics. Rather, it could easily fit any evil/death theme.

The spell list is fairly appropriate as-is, but could even be tweaked a bit more.

Sure, it's not a bad choice, as far as available Patrons go.
But, if you put what each offers side by side, I say Hexblade comes out on top.

The spell list is more on point for a murderer: Shield, Blur, Blink, multiple Smite Spells, Phantasmal Killer, etc.
Compare to Undead: False Life, Blindness/Deafness, Phantom Steed, Speak with Dead, Death Ward, etc.
Both lists have their uses, but one is clearly superior for a follower of the murder god.

Going through the other abilities:
-Fear form vs Targeted damage curse and full-on armor and weapon training, plus you can never be truly disarmed, plus SAD hax. I think the weapon/armor training and "always being armed," plus murder curse easily trumps Form of Dread as far as themes go. No contest on theme here.
-Limited extra Necrotic Damage + "undead" body benefits vs raising your murder victim as a specter to help you kill. Honestly, neither one is particularly on-theme. I'd argue Accursed Specter is closer, but only barely, since it functions based on who you kill.
-Harder to kill (with necrotic damage specifically), plus necrotic aoe burst (with a super-long CD that requires you nearly dying) vs improving your murder hex. Personally I think more-reliable murder hex is more on theme than necrotic damage protection and a damage burst that requires you losing your fight.
-Gain a spiritual travel form vs keeping your murder hex going from target to target. Another clear-cut winner for murder hex on theme here.


Bhaal's domain in 5e is Death, which has Animate Dead on its spell list, so he cares at least a little. Also his entire shtick and the reason he's famous is literally coming back from the dead, so like...again, kinda fits.

Likewise, as mentioned, the abilities of the Undead patron abilities are all about fear+damage, perfect for Bhaal.
To your first point, coming back from the dead isn't a Bhaal shtick, it's a shtick of all Faerunian gods. Mystra is the title holder. :smalltongue:
To your second point, Bhaal has never been associated with Fear. His portfolio is exclusively about Assassination, murder, violence, death (especially violent or ritual death).
Bane is the closest Faerunian deity related to Fear.

[Rukelnikov]

Sure, it's not a bad choice, as far as available Patrons go.
But, if you put what each offers side by side, I say Hexblade comes out on top.

The spell list is more on point for a murderer: Shield, Blur, Blink, multiple Smite Spells, Phantasmal Killer, etc.
Compare to Undead: False Life, Blindness/Deafness, Phantom Steed, Speak with Dead, Death Ward, etc.
Both lists have their uses, but one is clearly superior for a follower of the murder god.

Going through the other abilities:
-Fear form vs Targeted damage curse and full-on armor and weapon training, plus you can never be truly disarmed, plus SAD hax. I think the weapon/armor training and "always being armed," plus murder curse easily trumps Form of Dread as far as themes go. No contest on theme here.
-Limited extra Necrotic Damage + "undead" body benefits vs raising your murder victim as a specter to help you kill. Honestly, neither one is particularly on-theme. I'd argue Accursed Specter is closer, but only barely, since it functions based on who you kill.
-Harder to kill (with necrotic damage specifically), plus necrotic aoe burst (with a super-long CD that requires you nearly dying) vs improving your murder hex. Personally I think more-reliable murder hex is more on theme than necrotic damage protection and a damage burst that requires you losing your fight.
-Gain a spiritual travel form vs keeping your murder hex going from target to target. Another clear-cut winner for murder hex on theme here.


To your first point, coming back from the dead isn't a Bhaal shtick, it's a shtick of all Faerunian gods. Mystra is the title holder. :smalltongue:
To your second point, Bhaal has never been associated with Fear. His portfolio is exclusively about Assassination, murder, violence, death (especially violent or ritual death).
Bane is the closest Faerunian deity related to Fear.

The Ward could become the Slayer and had an assortment of powers that depended mostly on your alignment. Sarevok had a chance to frighten enemies merely by looking at them, I think Form of Dread is a much better fit than Hexblade's curse.

Mystra's shouldn't have the title really, the original Mystryl never resurrected (unless it happened post spellplague), a new goddess Mystra took her place, when Helm kills Mystra, she doesn't come back either, its Midnight, who took on Mystra's name because reasons. After Cyric kills Midnight, I'm not sure who it is that comes back, but if it is one of the three or the three combined, its still 1 resurrection at most.

[Unoriginal]

That's silly, because Bane was back at full strength well before the Sundering. And nothing about the Sundering should have reduced it.

Myrkul and Bhaal, maybe. But all of the dead 3? Seems sus.

Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal are considered quasi-deities at the time because Ao put strict limits on the kind of divine beings could be on Toril after the last mess.

The Dead Three decided still getting to play in the mortals' playground was worth not having access to all their power.

[RedMage125]

Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal are considered quasi-deities at the time because Ao put strict limits on the kind of divine beings could be on Toril after the last mess.

The Dead Three decided still getting to play in the mortals' playground was worth not having access to all their power.

That's a surprise, given Bane's ego.

[Witty Username]

Ummm...isn't Bhaal fully alive and a full fledged deity again in 5e?

So as I have heard, but cannot cite, all the dead three, Bane, Bhall and Myrkil, are all quasi-deities as of 5e. Supposedly this is mentioned in BG3 but I cannot find the reference.

This is especially weird with Bane, as in 3.5 Bane is a full on Greater Deity due to how dramatic his resurrection was. The best reason I heard for this was the deities where exiled from the Realms by Ao. Bane realized this didn't apply to quasi-deities, so he deliberately abandoned his portfolios to remain a direct force in the realms. But again, I have no clue where this is from.

[Unoriginal]

That's a surprise, given Bane's ego.

I mean, think of it like a boxer doing an incredibly intense diet so they can fight several weight classes below where they should be.

It is a sacrifice, but it allows them to fight people with so much less punching power and reach that rules were put in place specifically to not allow that kind of matches.

As a quasi-deity who can empower his Clerics and cultists still, Bane is among the top 10 most powerful beings on Toril.

Also it's not like he gave up his status as a bigger deity permanently, either. Presumably if he gets killed on the mortal plane he just goes back to his "distant but far more powerful" job.

[Witty Username]

That does sorta leave the lore in a weird spot, given Bane is the only deity to have apparently done this intentionally. Jergal is an honorable mention, but he has been a demigod for as long as the dead three have been deities, and these rules would presumably apply to Cyric but he is stuck in a forever hole last I checked and he didn't have a choice in the matter.

Like say, I would expect deities like Torm, Mystra, Mask, Illmater etc. to have at least have considered this.

[Unoriginal]

That does sorta leave the lore in a weird spot, given Bane is the only deity to have apparently done this intentionally.

Auril has done it too, and Tiamat does it in Tyranny of Dragons if everything works as she wants.

[Psyren]

As of BG3 at least, which is canon, all three of them can empower clerics and Chosen. What specific "rank" of deity that makes them, I have no idea, though.

[Rukelnikov]

As of BG3 at least, which is canon, all three of them can empower clerics and Chosen. What specific "rank" of deity that makes them, I have no idea, though.

In 3e terms, quasi-deities had Divine Rank 0, still had a lot of powers.

[Schwann145]

If you're looking for a good in-setting rationale, you won't find one.
This is the ttrpg equivalent of the movie studio stepping in and forcing the writer's/director's hand.

They want less deity involvement in the Realms, so that's what's happening in the Realms. No rhyme or reason for it other than corporate decision making by people who think they know better (despite being responsible for the biggest hits to the setting's popularity in all history, time and again).

[Unoriginal]

In 3e terms, quasi-deities had Divine Rank 0, still had a lot of powers.

And 5e quasi-deities are probably quite a bit stronger than that, even.

To give an example, Auril can sense when someone does something disrespectful toward her in a area larger than half the size of Belgium AND summon a big group of creatures to beat up the one lacking respect.

And that's while being explicitly weakened further because she's spending most of her juice inflicting eternal winter and eternal night on the area mentioned above.



They want less deity involvement in the Realms, so that's what's happening in the Realms. No rhyme or reason for it other than corporate decision making by people who think they know better (despite being responsible for the biggest hits to the setting's popularity in all history, time and again).

The gods not being allowed to brawl it out and squish the puny mortals in the crossfire of their setting-wide devastation like before is actually a perfectly valid idea, out of universe, considering the game is about playing said mortals.

In-universe is makes sense that whinny brats who can't play nice with their toys get their toys taken away, which is basically how Ao decided to treat the gods.

Also, that lore came from way before the corporate suits decided to ruin things in their incompetent grab for money. At a time where people were allowed to write actual lore and keep working on ideas until they were polished.

[Witty Username]

Auril has done it too, and Tiamat does it in Tyranny of Dragons if everything works as she wants.
My impression of Auril was that she was forced to flee to the material world to avoid being destroyed by Talos. With is a bit of a different vibe than going for a powerplay.

I will cede Tiamat, as I am not familiar with the module.

More to the point, I feel this would be a decent number of demigods about if this was both as doable, and effective as Bane makes it look



They want less deity involvement in the Realms, so that's what's happening in the Realms. No rhyme or reason for it other than corporate decision making by people who think they know better (despite being responsible for the biggest hits to the setting's popularity in all history, time and again).
On the dev end, its felt to me more like a way to justify never publishing a module that manages past 11th level. Oh you can fight gods in tier 2, the are depowered and what not, so it makes sense.
None of this, you must be this tall to even show up on Loth's radar.

[Psyren]

In 3e terms, quasi-deities had Divine Rank 0, still had a lot of powers.

Sure, but granting spells explicitly isn't one of them - so if that scale is even still relevant in 5e, they must be above 0.


If you're looking for a good in-setting rationale, you won't find one.
This is the ttrpg equivalent of the movie studio stepping in and forcing the writer's/director's hand.

They want less deity involvement in the Realms, so that's what's happening in the Realms. No rhyme or reason for it other than corporate decision making by people who think they know better (despite being responsible for the biggest hits to the setting's popularity in all history, time and again).

Given that Ed Greenwood cosigned what they're doing and explicitly retained creative control over FR, this is false.

[Schwann145]

Given that Ed Greenwood cosigned what they're doing and explicitly retained creative control over FR, this is false.
Creative control that WotC has tried to curtail at every turn, mind you.
Kind of like how, legally, anything Ed writes for The Forgotten Realms is considered canon. So what does WotC do? Eliminate canon entirely.

[Psyren]

So what does WotC do? Eliminate canon entirely.

Also false; BG3 canon goes back literal decades.

But we're getting away from the Warlock patron topic (to repeat my answers - Fiend or Undead.)

[Unoriginal]

My impression of Auril was that she was forced to flee to the material world to avoid being destroyed by Talos. With is a bit of a different vibe than going for a powerplay.

From what I understood, Auril had to deal with several of her divine enemies making an alliance and then went for the Material Plane as a "I'll show them!" scheme.



More to the point, I feel this would be a decent number of demigods about if this was both as doable, and effective as Bane makes it look.

Well, there are a number of demigods around, like IIRC the shark god Sekolah and the unicorn goddess Lurue.

It's also not as effective as Bane makes it look, as it's pretty clear the Dead 3 working together couldn't just walk up the street and take over Baldur's Gate (or at least, couldn't do that and *keep* the city when there's pushback).

Presumably, it will also cost them a pretty penny if they're slain on the Material Plane and have to go back to the divine neighborhood.

[Witty Username]

This is drifting into another sketch.

For warlock, my first thought is gods wouldn't, as clerics are (thematicly at least) more reliable. That being said, undying and undead fit all the dead three fairly well, including Bhaal. I would generally lean Undead for Bhaal specifically, as form of dread gives a strong reaper vibe as befits a death god.
Hexblade is also a surprisingly reasonable fit, Hex Warrior allows the use of conventional weapon for killing and assassination. And the powers like Accursed specter and hexblade's curse encourage murder being death triggers.

Back to Auril, that is a fair read, its a bit complex though. The inciting incident for Auril in Rime is an alliance between Umberlee and Talos to destroy her. This isn't a new alliance though, Auril, Umberlee, Talos and also Malar are a Patheon known as the Furies. In Rime, Umberlee, who is a bitch, got Auril cast out of the Furies in the hopes of having a stronger relationship with Talos.

At least from what I remember, I was hoping to double check my copy because this is alot, but I have misplaced mine.

[Unoriginal]

This is drifting into another sketch.

For warlock, my first thought is gods wouldn't, as clerics are (thematicly at least) more reliable. That being said, undying and undead fit all the dead three fairly well, including Bhaal. I would generally lean Undead for Bhaal specifically, as form of dread gives a strong reaper vibe as befits a death god.
Hexblade is also a surprisingly reasonable fit, Hex Warrior allows the use of conventional weapon for killing and assassination. And the powers like Accursed specter and hexblade's curse encourage murder being death triggers.

I agree with all of this.

Let's not forget that unlike a Cleric, a Warlock can be powered in spite of the Patron's lack of consent or even knowledge.

So I'd say it's fitting for a second-generation Bhaalspawn who is siphoning more of Grandpa Bhaal's power than he'd want.

Back on the "how powerful are quasi-deities?" topic, I just recalled something:

During the events of Tomb of Annihilation (spoilers ahead), Myrkhul's power was the only known method to even partially bypass the Curse of Death.

As in, while no bring-the-dead-back magic was possible, a ritual by a Myrkhul follower could animate the dead person into a sapient undead, keeping the soul safe from the Soulmonger.

Notable, because the quasi-deity wouldn't have been on the same continent.

That might be a specificity of Myrkhul's nature more than his power level, though. As none of the Dead Three could properly resurrect people during the Curse, either.

[Trask]

Creative control that WotC has tried to curtail at every turn, mind you.
Kind of like how, legally, anything Ed writes for The Forgotten Realms is considered canon. So what does WotC do? Eliminate canon entirely.

Whether or not that was their intention, I think de emphasizing the importance of canon is a move to make the Forgotten Realms a true shared universe/D&D background setting that allows DMs to create in it, use and abuse the setting as they wish without fear of violating canon.

Big FR fans won't like that, but it makes sense for what they want the FR to be.

[Psyren]

I agree with all of this.

Let's not forget that unlike a Cleric, a Warlock can be powered in spite of the Patron's lack of consent or even knowledge.

So I'd say it's fitting for a second-generation Bhaalspawn who is siphoning more of Grandpa Bhaal's power than he'd want.

Back on the "how powerful are quasi-deities?" topic, I just recalled something:

During the events of Tomb of Annihilation (spoilers ahead), Myrkhul's power was the only known method to even partially bypass the Curse of Death.

As in, while no bring-the-dead-back magic was possible, a ritual by a Myrkhul follower could animate the dead person into a sapient undead, keeping the soul safe from the Soulmonger.

Notable, because the quasi-deity wouldn't have been on the same continent.

That might be a specificity of Myrkhul's nature more than his power level, though. As none of the Dead Three could properly resurrect people during the Curse, either.

I'll add to this - a major plot point in BG3 (spoilers for Act 2) is that

Myrkul's Chosen, a long-lived half-elf named Ketheric Thorm, and former Chosen of Shar and possible Chosen or at least high-ranking cleric of Selune, helped set many of the events of that game into motion; his daughter Aylin suddenly passed away for reasons unknown, and he was unable to resurrect her despite his strong clerical powers. Keep in mind that both Selune and Shar are major/Greater Deities, and thus should be far more powerful than Myrkul even if he isn't a quasi-deity, but seemingly either could not or would not aid him with resurrecting his daughter.

If the reason for their failure to aid him was "could not," but Myrkul could, that suggests that at least where the dead are concerned, he has much more ability to act. But even if the reason is "would not" then that still begs the question as to why; especially in Selune's case, who likely would not refuse a devout follower unless she had to, which still suggests Myrkul has more freedom. (Shar of course, being Shar, could simply be behaving pettily and never had any intention of helping him when he turned to her, especially since losing his daughter would have been a massive source of loss.)

[Witty Username]

I figured Kethric was a Paladin, I could've sworn that he had Aura of Hate, which would reason Oathbreaker.
AnyWhoo,
As for Myrkul, tearing mortals from their graves was a thing he could do long before becoming a god. And part of the reason the dead three have such an enduring life span is they actually embody their own porfolios, which is a bit of a rarity among the Pantheon.

As far as I know, only Torm, Lathander, and Kelemvor can claim similar. And it was a bit of a process for Kelemvor as I have been lead to believe.
--
One of the things that is helping me on this thought problem is the dead three, are pretty good candidates for warlock patrons. Since death and murder are the end goal for two of them, loyalties are arguably a non factor.

[Unoriginal]

I figured Kethric was a Paladin, I could've sworn that he had Aura of Hate, which would reason Oathbreaker.
AnyWhoo,
As for Myrkul, tearing mortals from their graves was a thing he could do long before becoming a god. And part of the reason the dead three have such an enduring life span is they actually embody their own porfolios, which is a bit of a rarity among the Pantheon.

As far as I know, only Torm, Lathander, and Kelemvor can claim similar. And it was a bit of a process for Kelemvor as I have been lead to believe.
--
One of the things that is helping me on this thought problem is the dead three, are pretty good candidates for warlock patrons. Since death and murder are the end goal for two of them, loyalties are arguably a non factor.

Well, two things to consider:


1) Bhaal and Myrkul know their end goals don't require pawns that are personally loyal to them, but they do want those end goals carried in their names. So if anything they're pretty big on those they empower being loyal, or will have big contingencies to make them a non-issue as soon as wanted. And Bane would never tolerate a laissez-faire attitude.

2) Not every powerful entity knows how to give a spark of power to create a Warlock. I don't think anything indicates the Dead Three can do it willingly or would want to, since they can already empower mortals in other, more secure and not less powerful ways.

[RedMage125]

Keep in mind that both Selune and Shar are major/Greater Deities...

Selune is not a Greater Deity. While she was one of the 1st 2 deities, she gave up a significant amount of power in the attack on Shar that created Mystryl (later Mystra). In 3.5e, and I think 2e as well, she's listed as an Intermediate Deity, while Shar is Greater.

[Psyren]

Selune is not a Greater Deity. While she was one of the 1st 2 deities, she gave up a significant amount of power in the attack on Shar that created Mystryl (later Mystra). In 3.5e, and I think 2e as well, she's listed as an Intermediate Deity, while Shar is Greater.

There's two labels being conflated here. In 3.5e, she's Intermediate in power level using the Deities and Demigods rankings (which no longer exist in 5e.) She's considered a Major deity however in Faiths and Pantheons, due to the size and pervasiveness of her church, a categorization which did persist to 5e. The latter is what I meant.