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random11
2007-12-13, 07:41 AM
I think this is a common problem in role playing games, I just wonder how you solve this.

I'll give several examples to the problem:

1) If you describe to your players a room or a yard with statues, most of the times they are going to behave as if the statues are either going to attack them, or a result of a monster/wizard.
Looking at it from the character point of view, this is a paranoid behavior since they see statues wherever they go.
But from the realistic point of view, most DMs can't describe in details EVERYTHING that the characters see, so if the players will guess there is something special in the statues, they will probably be right.


2) On a main road from city A to city B, you as a DM want to add a special event concerning a cart that moves in the opposite way.
Like in the previous example, the characters see hundreds of carts on a main road, so why should the players NOT be suspicious if you describe a specific one?


3) Actually, my main reason for this thread, dreams.
I want to add special dreams that might hint something about the future, but if I tell the players about the dream they have, they will just know, way ahead of the characters, that this is a prophetic dream.


So, how can things like that be solved?

Drider
2007-12-13, 07:50 AM
put stuff in that they don't have to do with, maybe a large cart passing by, and when they go up to it, the family inside shoos them away. When they try to investigate furthur, the family calls for the help of a town guard.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-13, 07:50 AM
Spend the next month describing dreams, and then start on the prophetic ones. Once it becomes commonplace, your players won't notice. Granted, in the beginning they will think it's prophetic, but since you're just pulling random stuff out then it won't really affect play.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-12-13, 07:52 AM
I think the easiest way to solve this meta game issue is to provide false descriptions in the sense that you sometimes give a detailed description of a an unimportant statue/cart/dream.

If you mix your descriptions just enough they won't always be suspicious.

Sometimes ordinary things like passing a cart can be mentioned in brief in a way that does not raise suspicion.
"You travel from A to B and on your way you pass a number of merchant carts and travelers".

False clues generally require that you give your world a little more detail even for things that are unimportant to the plot and sometimes it also requires a little planning ahead if you want them to not be suspicious of the first new thing you describe as in the statue case.

Niknokitueu
2007-12-13, 07:52 AM
1) If you describe to your players a room or a yard with statues, most of the times they are going to behave as if the statues are either going to attack them, or a result of a monster/wizard.
Looking at it from the character point of view, this is a paranoid behavior since they see statues wherever they go.
But from the realistic point of view, most DMs can't describe in details EVERYTHING that the characters see, so if the players will guess there is something special in the statues, they will probably be right.
So? My GM sticks lots of statues in his dungeons on purpose. If they do not attack us, they form part of the treasure for the dungeon.
(We always act as if the statues may come to life - it slows down the dungeon slightly, but everyone has a laugh at the person that got too paranoid of the 'treasure'.)

2) On a main road from city A to city B, you as a DM want to add a special event concerning a cart that moves in the opposite way.
Like in the previous example, the characters see hundreds of carts on a main road, so why should the players NOT be suspicious if you describe a specific one?
Ask players beforehand to detail where they are (marching order), and their normal response to a normal event (things like a cart or caravan). If they say things like "As soon as I see the cart, I string my bow and notch an arrow", then adjust all their reaction rolls accordingly. If things regularly go south when they meet a farmer, have the local sherrif turn up to arrest the party for thuggery...

3) Actually, my main reason for this thread, dreams.
I want to add special dreams that might hint something about the future, but if I tell the players about the dream they have, they will just know, way ahead of the characters, that this is a prophetic dream.

It is rare to remember dreams (in any way more than a vague sense). Hence people will tend to think of any 'well organised' dream as one of prophecy. Either live with it, or build your prophetic dreams into a decent matrix and have someone (at random) remember a part of a non-prophetic dream at random intervals. Let the players go mad trying to understand why they dreamt of six foot tall bunnies... :D

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

Hyozo
2007-12-13, 07:56 AM
For all of them I have a two word solution: False Input

Seriously, you don't want them to suspect gargoyles/golems/basalisks every time they see statues? Let them see statues thay aren't indicarive of any of those three. You want them to not be suspicoius of the cart? Show them an occasional non-plot related cart. You want them to put less trust in dreams? Have a few inconsiquential dreams ready to dish out every time they sleep. If they know that there has been nothing special about previously encountered statues/carts/dreams, they'll be easier to surprise when thereal thing comes.

Sometimes the black cloak hanging on the wall is a monster that is going to eat the PCs alive, but as long as the DM is smart, more often than not it's just an ordinary black cloak, and the players have no way other than picking it up to tell which one they're looking at.

Xuincherguixe
2007-12-13, 08:44 AM
I agree with the others that you should go with the disinformation campaign.

But if they're being paranoid that's already a good sign. Now's the time to throw the really weird stuff at them. You just finish describing a bar. Then all the sudden the sky opens up and spits out a hideous blob with ten mouths and it's making sounds like a little girl laughing.

Then you have a good reason to describe the nightmares. When the awful things they dreamed about start showing up they might actually be surprised. Probably not, but it would at least have good build up.

Dausuul
2007-12-13, 08:45 AM
I think this is a common problem in role playing games, I just wonder how you solve this.

I'll give several examples to the problem:

1) If you describe to your players a room or a yard with statues, most of the times they are going to behave as if the statues are either going to attack them, or a result of a monster/wizard.
Looking at it from the character point of view, this is a paranoid behavior since they see statues wherever they go.
But from the realistic point of view, most DMs can't describe in details EVERYTHING that the characters see, so if the players will guess there is something special in the statues, they will probably be right.

2) On a main road from city A to city B, you as a DM want to add a special event concerning a cart that moves in the opposite way.
Like in the previous example, the characters see hundreds of carts on a main road, so why should the players NOT be suspicious if you describe a specific one?

3) Actually, my main reason for this thread, dreams.
I want to add special dreams that might hint something about the future, but if I tell the players about the dream they have, they will just know, way ahead of the characters, that this is a prophetic dream.

So, how can things like that be solved?

I think the thing to remember is that the DM is a narrator, not a video camera. In choosing what to describe and how to describe it, you are telling the players not only what their characters see, but what their characters pay attention to. If you describe something in extreme detail, that's equivalent to saying, "Your characters are paying close attention to this thing." Naturally, the players will regard this as significant. If you want to play "spot the crucial detail" with your players (rather than with their characters), you have to put the detail into a mass of other, non-crucial details, and give each of them the same narrative weight. Mostly, however, I tend to avoid "spot the crucial detail" and simply give appropriate focus to things based on how much I think they would draw the PCs' interest.

If the PCs have no reason to pay attention to a given thing, I don't bother mentioning it unless they ask. If they're on a major trade route, I don't describe each cart going along the road. I just mention when they come to the road that there are lots of people driving carts. If they investigate a random cart, it's a perfectly normal peasant family carting their goods to market, or a minor merchant hauling his wares. If one of the carts contains something important, and I want them to investigate that particular cart, then I give them a specific reason to do so; if I feel that there's a chance they wouldn't notice, I call for a Spot check.

For statues in a dungeon, I try to give some flavor to each room (though not more than a sentence or two, because player attention span is limited). That flavor may well include statues. If they treat every statue as if it's going to come alive... well, that's their privilege, and it's not an unfounded concern. Statues in the D&D world can and do come alive on occasion, and when they do, they're usually pretty nasty. Even when they don't, they may hide vicious traps. If I were investigating a dungeon, I'd be wary of statues, too.

If you want them to not be wary of statues, then work on establishing that in your world, statues do not generally come alive. Have dungeons with lots of statuary. Put secret doors behind statues, useful mechanical triggers in the details of their construction, and valuable gemstones in their eyes, to encourage the PCs to get up close to the statues. If you do this for a while, and none of the statues comes alive, the PCs will eventually become confident that they can walk past a statue without having their weapons out and ready.

Do note, however, that if you take advantage of this by having a statue come alive after all, then unless you provided some clear indication ahead of time that this statue was different, they'll revert to their previous paranoid behavior, and it will take a long, long time to re-establish their trust in sculpture (indeed, it probably won't ever happen). And that, too, is entirely rational on the part of both character and player. If you ever got attacked by a statue, would you casually ignore the next statue you met? Thought not.

As far as dreams go, you certainly don't want to be describing every random dream that comes into the PCs' heads! You'll spend half of each session describing dream sequences. Your players will be extremely confused until they figure out that the dreams don't mean anything. Then they'll be extremely bored.
I don't think there's a way to avoid having the PCs attach significance to any dream you take the time to describe. Let me ask another question, though: Why is this a problem? Presumably, if you're dropping hints in it, you want them to pay attention to the dream. Why would you then try to slip it past their notice? If you want to make it a puzzle (find the prophetic bits), then just describe the dream as a hodgepodge of random elements, like a real dream, but with the prophetic bits hidden in the mass. Let them try to work out which parts are important and which are not... but do make sure there are some clues that will let them do this, because otherwise it's just a guessing game.

Bender
2007-12-13, 09:00 AM
In most stories featuring prophetic dreams, it is rather clear that it is a prophetic dream. Often the dream is exceptionally lively, it feels much more real, which results in the PC's remembering the dream in detail. Another option is that a dream returns often, which has the same effect. A last reason why they probably immediately recognise a dream, is because it's not their style of dream, it doesn't feel like theirs, which makes it special.

And lastly, if you cram the prophetic dream with nonsensical, absurd and mystical stuff, they will still have a hard time figuring out what it meant, and which part of the dream was important.

SoD
2007-12-13, 10:28 AM
With the statues, just occasionally mention that there are statues, discribe them as much as you want and have them do nothing. Alternatively, say something like ''You walk into a large garden, there are magnolias growing from every nook and cranny, and violets where there are no magnolias. In the distance, you can hear a fountain, there appears to be an ivy covered statue of moradin with water trickling out of his mouth. Inside the fountain are a number of fish. As you take a closer look at the fish THE STATUE ATTACKS!!!!! ROLL FOR INITIATIVE!!!!

Craig1f
2007-12-13, 10:40 AM
I'm going to agree with what everyone else is saying.

When you create a room, think very hard about what that room should look like. When they enter the room, either describe the first thing they would see, starting with the most eye-drawing, or start on one side of the room, and describe everything in a clockwise or counter-clockwise direction. Don't let your players interrupt you; finish the entire description.

If you describe the statues first, they'll remember them. If you describe them 2nd or 3rd, they'll probably forget about them by the time you're finished. There is no need to say anything much more than "there are a few statues" unless they ask you to describe the statues, or unless that statues are very unusual. Additionally, you might have a plant monster attack in a room full of statues sometime, since they're probably going to fixate on the statues and ignore the vines hanging off the wall.

You can also roll Wisdom checks on behalf of the players to determine how much detail they get. If they roll low, they just hear "there are statues". If they roll high, they hear "there are some large statues of imposing figures, each with a plaque at their base" or something like that. You should roll these checks in secret so they don't know something is up.

Also, as a DM, you should roll d20's every time they enter a room, whether there is something there or not. You should roll dice for no reason whatsoever fairly often. This way, when you're actually rolling for some reason, they don't know it. When I started playing, I use to freak out every time the DM started rolling dice, because I thought we were being attacked. Then someone pointed out that he was doing it, so we wouldn't be able to determine if something was going on simply because he was rolling dice.

Khanderas
2007-12-13, 10:44 AM
Example 1. The room, anything mentioned in it is something important:
Best way is to just describe anything with a sentence on every item in the room.
Don't say "You enter a 30x30 feet room, in a corner is a bookshelf with a green book."
Do say "You enter a 30x30 feet room. The walls are still made from rough stone, as is the floor. There is a door on the right wall, iron studded oak and looks quite sturdy. A bookshelf is by the north wall with a couple of books in it. Beside it is a normal-looking desk, sized to fit medium sized humanoids (only in D&D that would be a valid detail). On the west wall is a tapestry that seems to have a heroic motif, only apparently the necromancer is the heroic figure here. The center of the room has a big dirty carpet. Otherwise quite empty and quiet.

Most items gets a mention, including how it looks at a casual look. My bet is they will be very wary of the carpet, assuming traps, but once that is checked, it wont be obvious where to go or what to check. Perhaps nothing at all is important there. only the GM knows.


2. Normal road... GM described a cart ? KILL IT ! If there is any point to the cart (clues, villains what have you) roll secretly if they Spot some clue (like the driver looks at them mysteriously, or something sticks out of the haystack that shouldnt stick out of a haystack. Naturally roll now and then so they are used to you rolling, or do the old classic where you make a table of random numbers 1-20 and just place your pen there somewhere when not looking at it. Kinda random generator that isnt as showy as dice rolling.

If there is no speical carts rolling by, just describe them in plural. If carts roll by in both directions, they can be ignored. If one cart comes... something might be up. Then again your players might be too paranoid even for that. :)

3 Noone remembers the whole dream Even prophetic dreams are remembered in fragments. Extra frustrating and tantalizing. "You wake up after having a dream about a horse... that said something. Prolly not important... <evil DM smile>"

Winterwind
2007-12-13, 10:44 AM
My suggestion would be to always include some additional details in the description of every place and scene which are not emminently important to the plot/challenge, but add to the atmosphere. In order for a scene to be memorable, it is a good idea anyway to include something special, something distinguishing it from all the other scenes. So go ahead - include some statues in your description which are just that - lifeless, nonmagical statues, and no more - but in order to not bore your players with descriptions of irrelevant details, have the statues depict something interesting, weird, funny or terrifying. Add weird lights and effects just for the sake of being there, with no real relevance, but which somehow seem to fit the place. Describe the cart, but make the description amusing - don't just tell how there is some cart coming towards them, describe how the farmer is having difficulties forcing the oxes go the way he wants them to. This way, all the details serve some purpose (adding atmosphere, amusing the players, pointing out that, yes, this place does indeed belong to an evil cult, etc.), and hence do not bore the players, with the players not being able to distinguish which details serve only the purposes above, and which are genuinely dangerous or important.

As for the dreams, I wouldn't mind the players knowing the dream was prophetic - isn't it a common theme in fantasy that when a person has a prophetic dream they are aware of that? - but I would keep it obscure, so that the tension is not derived from the players not knowing whether the dream was prophetic or not, but from not knowing what it meant.
I explicitly do not advise to start telling them their ordinary dreams every night and smuggling the prophetic dream somewhere in between those - these ordinary dreams would most likely end up as time waste, since they would neither add to the tension of the situation in the "real world" of the adventurers, nor further the plot anyhow. This would be an example of details not serving a purpose, and as such might easily end up boring the players. Unless you can come up with a good idea for dreams which would indeed enhance the atmosphere or immersion - for instance, a character in one of my groups recently had a truly traumatic experience (to be precise, the adventure in question was inspired by the Shalebridge Cradle from Thief: Deadly Shadows, so there), and therefore I started to describe his nightmares to him every now and then, adjusting them to what he has to face now, as projections of his current problems.

Craig1f
2007-12-13, 10:49 AM
2. Normal road... GM described a cart ? KILL IT ! If there is any point to the cart (clues, villains what have you) roll secretly if they Spot some clue (like the driver looks at them mysteriously, or something sticks out of the haystack that shouldnt stick out of a haystack. Naturally roll now and then so they are used to you rolling, or do the old classic where you make a table of random numbers 1-20 and just place your pen there somewhere when not looking at it. Kinda random generator that isnt as showy as dice rolling.

If they do that, you should ask to see their character sheets for a moment. When they get their sheets back, their alignment should be dropped from Good to Neutral, or from Neutral to Evil, and from Lawful to Neutral.

valadil
2007-12-13, 11:24 AM
To surprise players you need to get them comfortable with something and then change it. If the first statue they see is a gargoyle, then every time they see a statue they'll think its a gargoyle. You need to condition them to the idea that statues are mundane.

As it is, there is no penalty for them being cautious around statues. So they waste a couple minutes getting in formation while moving past the statue. Big deal. There's no penalty for being extra paranoid so they're going on the safe side.

Also, gargoyles are standard fair as far as adventurers are concerned. No seasoned adventurer will be lured in by sirens either. Nor will they wonder why trolls keep getting up after getting chopped down. They know these things. For a surprise, you need to do something the players haven't seen before. Either condition them, or come up with some novel idea.

Here's something you can use. Put them in a tavern. Pretty standard for a D&D game. Some sketchy dude wearing black cloaks is sitting around looking nervous and then leaves in a hurry after tipping the bartender with gold. He'll probably look like a thief and the group will probably try and stop him. He runs, they tackle him. Turns out it was the king's song trying to escape the palace and see what normal life is like for an evening. Or something to that effect. Not only will the players not expect it, but there are repercussions for tackling the prince in a city street. Maybe they'll spend a night in jail before things get straightened out or maybe social plots will spring up. That's up to you. If I were running this plot I'd put more time into the set up. Maybe they'd been hired to infiltrate a thieves guild. Maybe they'd had all their gold stolen as soon as they got to town. Just set them up so they're thinking thieves when they see this guy who is in disguise but just because he doesn't want to be recognized.

Dausuul
2007-12-13, 11:39 AM
My suggestion would be to always include some additional details in the description of every place and scene which are not emminently important to the plot/challenge, but add to the atmosphere. In order for a scene to be memorable, it is a good idea anyway to include something special, something distinguishing it from all the other scenes. So go ahead - include some statues in your description which are just that - lifeless, nonmagical statues, and no more - but in order to not bore your players with descriptions of irrelevant details, have the statues depict something interesting, weird, funny or terrifying. Add weird lights and effects just for the sake of being there, with no real relevance, but which somehow seem to fit the place. Describe the cart, but make the description amusing - don't just tell how there is some cart coming towards them, describe how the farmer is having difficulties forcing the oxes go the way he wants them to. This way, all the details serve some purpose (adding atmosphere, amusing the players, pointing out that, yes, this place does indeed belong to an evil cult, etc.), and hence do not bore the players, with the players not being able to distinguish which details serve only the purposes above, and which are genuinely dangerous or important.

This is an important thing to keep in mind--there's a fine line between "evocative description" and "boring flavor text." Try to give the players a clear sense of what the room is, and what it can reasonably be expected to contain, without getting bogged down in details. For example, let's say it's a wizard's study, where the only significant thing is the wizard's spellbook on the top shelf.

Bad description #1: "You enter a twenty-by-twenty room. There's a bookcase, with a black-bound tome on the top shelf."

This has no description at all; players will home in on the tome because as far as they know, that's the only thing in the room.

Bad description #2: "You enter a room, about twenty feet by twenty feet, though it's hard to measure due to the clutter. The smell of mildew and old leather hangs heavy on the air. There is a tapestry on the wall opposite the entrance, depicting a hunting scene with men on horseback chasing a unicorn, and a weeping woman in the corner. It has a tear in it at the left-hand side that has been clumsily patched. There are bookcases carved out of ebony on the other walls. The one on the left-hand wall is carved with unicorns, the one on the right-hand wall is carved with dragons, and the one next to the door is carved with skulls. One shelf holds a row of books bound in scaly green leather, and another has the skulls of several creatures, including a cat, a bear, and what looks like a young dragon. Some of the other books are bound in teak that's been inlaid in gold leaf. There's one large tome done in what you think is human skin, another bound in black on the top shelf, and two companion volumes made of some shiny material you don't offhand recognize. A desk sits in the middle of the room, made of mahogany and very sturdy, and the chair behind it has thick cushions of red velvet. Several silver candelabra stand around the room, decorated with mermaid motifs, with white beeswax candles in them."

At first this might seem like an excellent description. The problem is that unless your players are people of extraordinary patience, you lost their interest a long time ago. Some of them fixated on one detail which they want to investigate further--probably the tapestry--and they've been impatiently waiting for the chance to do so. The rest have been ticking off stuff they could loot. Basically, since about the time you hit the bookcases, all anyone has heard has been "blah blah blah inlaid in gold leaf blah blah blah tome done in human skin blah blah blah silver candelabra blah."

Good description: "You enter a room about twenty by twenty, that looks like the wizard's study. It smells of mildew and old leather. There are bookcases on three walls, a tapestry on the fourth, a couple of silver candelabra, and a mahogany desk and chair in the middle of the room. The bookcases are crammed full of books in all shapes and sizes."

This covers basically the same ground as #2, but omits all the irrelevant detail and concentrates on the basics: bookcases, books, tapestry, candelabra, desk, chair, with the mildew/leather smell thrown in to help evoke "musty place full of books." The PCs should have a clear sense of where they are and what they might reasonably expect to be in the room. You don't need to mention the black-bound book on the top shelf; if they ask about the books, you can tell them about it then.

That last is crucial. Don't cram everything into one giant block of description. Start with the basics and let the players investigate each item on their own, revealing details as they request them.

Zherog
2007-12-13, 11:42 AM
You might find Rich's article on "texture" to be of interest. (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/YUMiX2JPVjHIJ6h5VlD.html).

Artanis
2007-12-13, 11:42 AM
One word:

Gazebo

Bender
2007-12-13, 11:47 AM
another idea for dreams: don't tell them anything until they specifically ask about them. You have to leave hints of course. The PC that has the prophetic dreams is slightly psychic (he is strong in the touch/the force is strong in this one). You could have him occasionally pick up strong emotions from both animals and intelligent folk. (e.g. he might feel fear when they pass a donkey that is threatened with a whip, or get inexplicably angry when they pass some arguing merchants). An old crone or mutilated beggar might say something enigmatic specifically to that PC. Never draw too much attention to this.
At some point, they might hear a story about a boy who caught other peoples emotions and his dreams became true.
Eventually, they'll get the hint and that PC will concentrate on remembering his dreams. They can still be obscure, of course.

Winterwind
2007-12-13, 12:25 PM
This is an important thing to keep in mind--there's a fine line between "evocative description" and "boring flavor text." Try to give the players a clear sense of what the room is, and what it can reasonably be expected to contain, without getting bogged down in details. For example, let's say it's a wizard's study, where the only significant thing is the wizard's spellbook on the top shelf.Excellent post, Dausuul. Much more eloquent than what I was trying to say, and perfectly on spot.

I would add one thing however. It is okay to go a bit more into the details now and then, as long as there is some reward connected with it. And with reward I do not mean gold, items, experience or a challenge for the players - in fact, the details could be completely unimportant per se - but that the details are entertaining to the players. Be it because they are funny, or because they are horrifying - but as long as they accomplish that, they are worth being described (of course, something of the length of Bad Description #2 is way over the top). For instance, your Good Description is, indeed, a good description of the scene - straight to the point, including all relevant information and allowing the players to picture the place. However, after eight months, what is there that would make the players remember the scene? Depending on what happens, they might still recall it by "Ah, yes, that was there where suddenly XXX stumbled into the room and YYY happened", but there is nothing about the room itself that would be sufficiently memorable to engrave the room in the players' memory.

Allow me to try to demonstrate on a description of a tavern (sorry for not being as poetic as your descriptions, my vocabulary shortens out here):

Description #1: A good dozen wooden small tables crowd together in a far too little room, lit by two large chandeliers and a merrily flickering fire in the fireplace, above which a deliciously looking roast is turning on a spit. The tavern is crowded with many folk - mostly peasants - and the round-bellied barman and the four maids have their hands full trying to serve all of them.

Nothing wrong with this description, methinks; however, it is just the usual stereotype, and does not contain any novelty that would make the scene special somehow. It's exactly like the previous tavern, and the tavern before, and the tavern before that.

Description #2: A good dozen wooden small tables crowd together in a far too little room, lit by two large chandeliers and a merrily flickering fire in the fireplace, above which a deliciously looking roast is turning on a spit. The tavern is crowded with many folk - mostly peasants - and the round-bellied barman and the four maids have their hands full trying to serve all of them. The wall opposite of the entrance is full of wooden miniature shields attached to it, painted with care; each shows a different heraldic icon of every *turning to the group's knight/fighter/whatever fits* noble family you know to exist, and some families you did not know to exist at all!

Just a bit longer, but it establishes something that is different about this tavern than the others, and it may even offer some additional immersion. The players may be interested in it (and find out that the tavern's owner is a fan of heraldy and knight tournaments, attends them whenever he can and has carved each heraldry sign he knows carefully on these shields as a hobby), or they may completely ignore it, they may also use it as insuspicious hook for starting a conversation with someone they want to talk to, but at any rate, it is something unusual. The last part might even get a chuckle out of one player or another.

I admit, a rather poor example - I'm kinda tired right now, and my creativity is failing me - but I hope it illustrates what I mean.

Telonius
2007-12-13, 12:35 PM
One word:

Gazebo

I have seriously got to learn NOT to drink anything when I'm reading the forums. My keyboard will thank me for it.

EDIT: Link here (http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/98/Jul/gazebo.html)for the uninitiated.

Ganurath
2007-12-13, 12:35 PM
Have a LBEG wizard plant dreams that would seem prophetic, but make the PCs dupes if they try to roll with it. Once the LBEG is thrashed, have the prophetic dreams begin.

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-13, 12:39 PM
As people have said don't draw attention to one think. Also punish them rarely for being paranoid. You could also give reasons for why they're thier.

You could try and make you players think they suffered from a nightmare or dream spell or that thier is a curse where they're sleeping.

Dausuul
2007-12-13, 01:43 PM
Excellent post, Dausuul. Much more eloquent than what I was trying to say, and perfectly on spot.

I would add one thing however. It is okay to go a bit more into the details now and then, as long as there is some reward connected with it. And with reward I do not mean gold, items, experience or a challenge for the players - in fact, the details could be completely unimportant per se - but that the details are entertaining to the players. Be it because they are funny, or because they are horrifying - but as long as they accomplish that, they are worth being described (of course, something of the length of Bad Description #2 is way over the top). For instance, your Good Description is, indeed, a good description of the scene - straight to the point, including all relevant information and allowing the players to picture the place. However, after eight months, what is there that would make the players remember the scene? Depending on what happens, they might still recall it by "Ah, yes, that was there where suddenly XXX stumbled into the room and YYY happened", but there is nothing about the room itself that would be sufficiently memorable to engrave the room in the players' memory.

Allow me to try to demonstrate on a description of a tavern (sorry for not being as poetic as your descriptions, my vocabulary shortens out here):

Description #1: A good dozen wooden small tables crowd together in a far too little room, lit by two large chandeliers and a merrily flickering fire in the fireplace, above which a deliciously looking roast is turning on a spit. The tavern is crowded with many folk - mostly peasants - and the round-bellied barman and the four maids have their hands full trying to serve all of them.

Nothing wrong with this description, methinks; however, it is just the usual stereotype, and does not contain any novelty that would make the scene special somehow. It's exactly like the previous tavern, and the tavern before, and the tavern before that.

Description #2: A good dozen wooden small tables crowd together in a far too little room, lit by two large chandeliers and a merrily flickering fire in the fireplace, above which a deliciously looking roast is turning on a spit. The tavern is crowded with many folk - mostly peasants - and the round-bellied barman and the four maids have their hands full trying to serve all of them. The wall opposite of the entrance is full of wooden miniature shields attached to it, painted with care; each shows a different heraldic icon of every *turning to the group's knight/fighter/whatever fits* noble family you know to exist, and some families you did not know to exist at all!

Just a bit longer, but it establishes something that is different about this tavern than the others, and it may even offer some additional immersion. The players may be interested in it (and find out that the tavern's owner is a fan of heraldy and knight tournaments, attends them whenever he can and has carved each heraldry sign he knows carefully on these shields as a hobby), or they may completely ignore it, they may also use it as insuspicious hook for starting a conversation with someone they want to talk to, but at any rate, it is something unusual. The last part might even get a chuckle out of one player or another.

I admit, a rather poor example - I'm kinda tired right now, and my creativity is failing me - but I hope it illustrates what I mean.

Agreed. I think descriptions should be about 90% type 1, 10% type 2. You can't make every tavern memorable, but the occasional nugget of "setting characterization" definitely adds a lot to a campaign.

sikyon
2007-12-13, 02:02 PM
I remember something similar from DM of the Rings. he did something like describing a basically mundane cup in equisite detail, and all the players wanted it (even though it wasn't worth much at all). If say "you can either have the +3 longsword, or the exquisitly crafted golden ring. The ring seems to shine with a soft light, a refraction from the three glittering rubies set in the center. You can see your face glittering in the many faced rubies, and you think to yourself that you have never looked handsomer/smarter/wiser/stronger" Your playres are going to fight each other for that ring, because they will assume that the ring you described in such great detail is a ring of three wises, which is worth 5x that of the longsword. But it just turns out to be a mundane ring with a few rubies.

Winterwind
2007-12-13, 02:02 PM
Agreed. I think descriptions should be about 90% type 1, 10% type 2. You can't make every tavern memorable, but the occasional nugget of "setting characterization" definitely adds a lot to a campaign.I tend to go for a somewhat higher ratio myself, I think (never stopped to think about it, really - I would estimate something like one in three or one in two), because I find that, as long as the players are entertained, the slightly longer descriptions are worth it, and - which is why I brought it up in the first place - this way the players grow to accept that not every detail is necessarily plot-relevant. Sometimes, their characters exhibit interest in the added details, sometimes they don't - at any rate, they do not automatically focus on some part of the description, because they know well that it may easily be just for fun/atmosphere. Which seems to be exactly what the OP is in need of.

EDIT: Although, to me, it actually seems more like an OOC problem - the players seem to not have understood the concept of in-character/out-of-character knowledge. And players not understanding roleplaying concepts is usually better solved by talking to them about the issue, rather than in-play manipulations.

Indon
2007-12-13, 03:37 PM
Wow, I don't describe things at all like that.

My players enter a tavern, I tell them, "You enter a tavern. The establishment appears well-maintained, and the patrons - of which there seem fewer than average for this part of the year - seem to be eating well."

And barring anything that I judge would catch the characters' eye, that's all I give them unless they ask for other information (which they often do).

I generally don't get my players paranoid about things because if they run into something suspicious, I'll generally let them roll a relevant stat/skill to see what they notice that's out-of-place, if anything. Sometimes I've red-herringed their attempts to predict my plots, though, which I'm proud of.

Jade_Tarem
2007-12-13, 11:21 PM
One note of advice: don't speak in monotone. It's easy to fall into when you aren't quite sure how to proceed or are reading from a published setting, but it kills players, who will take the opportunity to get back at the DM (since he's reading to them something they could have read in half the time) by interjecting with inappropriate comments on things, and will finish with a glib remark.

DM: "... and after turning in to the side road and entering the inn-"
Player: We Greyhawk it!

Icewalker
2007-12-13, 11:48 PM
Yeah, as suggested by many, I think the best solution to your problem is to describe lots of things in detail. Whenever they are in a city or town, describe the surroundings, the people, the place, the statues. It could be hard to come up with all that, but it'd be the best way to do so.

Yakk
2007-12-14, 12:51 AM
Find or invent a "random detail generator".

When they walk into a room, openly roll on it.

"You enter the room and (roll) see some statues, and (roll) a bookcase."

Regularly describe unimportant stuff casually. "You wake up from a dream about horses". "As you pass by a cart, the farmer nods his head."

It doesn't have to be long or convoluted. Add some texture to the world.

Have prepared flavor text. The purpose isn't an adventure: the purpose is to give the characters a feel for the world. If they respond in a paranoid method to all of it, they won't be getting XP very fast... (you can even tell them you are going to start using flavor text encounters, and if they respond to all of them, they won't be getting XP very fast, as players)

Yami
2007-12-14, 01:04 AM
If I truely have trouble suprising my players, I use invisible stalkers who've had silence cast upon them. Works everytime.

Other than that, it seems all the good advice has already been offered.

Winterwind
2007-12-14, 02:01 AM
Wow, I don't describe things at all like that.

My players enter a tavern, I tell them, "You enter a tavern. The establishment appears well-maintained, and the patrons - of which there seem fewer than average for this part of the year - seem to be eating well."I think my above examples are a pretty fair representation of my usual description style.
I always have a pretty clear image of every scene in my head, and, while I try to not bore my players with information-overload, I try to give them enough description for them to get a good visualisation of the scene and, much, much more importantly, the mood.


And barring anything that I judge would catch the characters' eye, that's all I give them unless they ask for other information (which they often do).Yeah, mine do so, too.


I generally don't get my players paranoid about things because if they run into something suspicious, I'll generally let them roll a relevant stat/skill to see what they notice that's out-of-place, if anything. Sometimes I've red-herringed their attempts to predict my plots, though, which I'm proud of.Oh yeah, this is a good advice for the OP, too - try to predict your group's suspicions, and play with them - sometimes, let the traitor be the unfriendly, brooding and arrogant bastard, and sometimes, let it be the friendly, charming and apparently well-meaning guy. Make the group understand that you neither always go for the obviously expected, nor never go for the obviously expected - alternate it wildly.


Yeah, as suggested by many, I think the best solution to your problem is to describe lots of things in detail. Whenever they are in a city or town, describe the surroundings, the people, the place, the statues. It could be hard to come up with all that, but it'd be the best way to do so.
Find or invent a "random detail generator".

When they walk into a room, openly roll on it.

"You enter the room and (roll) see some statues, and (roll) a bookcase."

Regularly describe unimportant stuff casually. "You wake up from a dream about horses". "As you pass by a cart, the farmer nods his head."[...]While generally good advice, be careful not to fall for the other extreme - there is a fine line between "non-relevant, but fun-enhancing details" and "utterly useless details". It is better to describe just one peasant, who keeps screaming, "Go left, Molly!", with Molly, the fat cow in front of his cart, casually strolling to the right and, when he gets even louder, merrily ignoring him and beginning to chow on the grass at the side of the road, because it is, if told the right way, funny, than to describe the mustache-colour of each of the twenty peasants passing by. The first one is entertaining; the second is purely tedious.

Don't just bring in details for the sake of bringing in details; bring in details which add something to the world - enhance the mood you are striving for, entertain the players by humouring or frightening them or are just unusual enough to be interesting.

It even helps with the immersion into the world; if the city has a great fountain every 300 steps which looks like a head with a face in each direction, it will probably be completely unimportant to the course of the session, but it is something unusual about the town, which helps the players to feel that, yes, they are not just in Generic Town #31, they are in Fountain Head. (kudos to anyone who gets the reference :smallwink: )

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-14, 02:21 AM
I invite paranoia...

hidden lurkers, invisible stalkers, silence/darkness, mimics, gargoyles, golems, earth elementals in walls, pools of oozes/water elementals, shapechanged enemies, zombies/skeletons rising from bodies, vampires in bat form or mist form, townsfolk under magical compulsion to kill them, traps, hidden traps, trapped traps, and much much more...

when I start to get going my players learn that paranoia is a fact of life...the problem is, I change it up so often that they never know if it is just a random detail I toss in, or if it their DOOM!!!

Titanium Dragon
2007-12-14, 03:20 AM
1) If you describe to your players a room or a yard with statues, most of the times they are going to behave as if the statues are either going to attack them, or a result of a monster/wizard.
Looking at it from the character point of view, this is a paranoid behavior since they see statues wherever they go.
But from the realistic point of view, most DMs can't describe in details EVERYTHING that the characters see, so if the players will guess there is something special in the statues, they will probably be right.

Be more descriptive in general. If there are always statues, candelabras, bookcases, ect. around, then they will have to sift through more "junk" to find what you've hidden. It also makes the game more immersive, but it also means that every time you put in a statue it doesn't jump out and bite the PCs.


2) On a main road from city A to city B, you as a DM want to add a special event concerning a cart that moves in the opposite way.
Like in the previous example, the characters see hundreds of carts on a main road, so why should the players NOT be suspicious if you describe a specific one?

Ditto.


3) Actually, my main reason for this thread, dreams.
I want to add special dreams that might hint something about the future, but if I tell the players about the dream they have, they will just know, way ahead of the characters, that this is a prophetic dream.

Actually, I think dreams like this generally you WANT them to know are prophetic dreams. You could also simply roll dice every night and give them a random dream every once in a while, but I find this annoying. It can be fun though to have them have random dreams from time to time.