Some questions to dm and players (a God in disarray, a druid grove, followers)

[Entessa]

Hello everyone. My campaign is near the end. I will provide with some informations and the doubts I have, hoping to find someone out there that knows a good answer to my doubts.

When the campaign will finish, I will credit you. Promise. If you care for digital bits promise, that is :P
And you will have the thanks of my players.

So, my players are one Bhaalspawn and his party.

I have the following doubts:

1) Bhaal is a God that has foreseen his death; he spawned many children and they had a portion of his essence inside them. Killing them makes them turn to dust and their essence goes to the “source”; in this source, there is a follower of the god currently bathing, in the purpose of stealing his portfolio and powers.

Bhaal hid a creature (Khazgaroth: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kazgaroth) made of his essence inside a plane that cannot be reached by anyone but Bhaal himself.
One of my player is a Bhaalspawn, with the power to use instinctively a pocket plane that is born from his link to Godhood and where he can open portals to places.

My player has willed the following: “bring me to a place where I can find a powerful ally”.

Provided that a portal opens to a plane that could lead the players to Kazgaroth. In the place the players won't find Khazgaroth, but a servant. What role has this servant? I made him so that he merely asks question to the player (after a oath of truth). If the player doesn't lie, the servant will offer clues on how to approach khazgaroth. The servant opens a portal out of the blue to khazgaroth, so the plane is merely a plane of "passage", he doesn't contain Kazgaroth. Or maybe kazgaroth is behind the gate, but the gate can't be opened by "mortal" means?


How would I justify to the player the fact that no other demigod children or the “stealer of the portfolio” himself was able to reach this place?



I’m pretty sure that in the setting of Bhaalspawn vs Bhaalspawn, anyone has wished or willed to have powerful allies. So why hasn’t anyone (be it the Bhaalspawn or the Godhood’s usurper) been able to reach the place? Kazgaroth is a known name, so I’m sure he was searched.
So, to sum up (TL;DR):
- why was a children of a god able to reach the plane while the other children the stealer of the portfolio couldn’t? Please, don’t say “protagonist syndrome”.
- How would the plane be hid from Gods, usurpers, and everyone else?


2) I would like to adopt the idea of Kazgaroth being born out of Bhaal.
He follows Bhaal’s orders, but has an individuality of his own and acts an independent agent.
To the point that his follower worship him, but adopt Malar’s ethos. Does it make sense?

2.1) Kazgaroth’s worshippers. I’m sure the Kazgaroth in my game will ask to the Bhaalspawn to go in a druid’s grove where his worshippers are. I’m thinking about setting up some quest sketches following quests; please, if they do not make sense or you think they are stupid, let me know. I’m here to entertain my players, after all.

- The first npc they will see will not trust the players. Could he ask to go kill a panther blessed by Kazgaroth himself? Or would that be another reason of disarray, considering that a new party shows up and just shows that Kazgaroth influence is so weak that even a youngster with his party can take care of a creature blessed by Kazgaroth?
Or maybe I could justify the thing by saying that if I wasn’t a true “follower”, there would be many panthers and beasts and players would be overrun. That would be a good justification.

- One npc will request the players to learn Malar’s ethos, Bhaal’s ethos, and ask him how both ethos can coexist with each other.

- A dragon has taken residence in a near glade; he wishes to purge all Kazgaroth’s followers. The player can take his offer, but the plane with Kazgaroth will be barred to him later (not before Kazgaroth makes him realize the errors of his ways). The issue is that I’m pretty sure one of my player will say: why are you there waiting rather than doing it now ? I guess I could solve it by saying, “I’m resting, tomorrow is the day” and add a timer for the player – if he doesn’t act fast, the grove will be cleansed.

- Given that Kazgaroth seems to be gone, I would say that his worshippers are in disarray. Could I set up so that there is a certain npc that tries to lure whoever comes in the grove away, by teaching conflicting ethos than the one Kazgaroth has?

- Any particular quest you would recommend that I make my players play?

Thanks for all the help

[Unoriginal]

Provided that a portal opens to the plane of Kazgaroth, how would I justify to the player the fact that no other demigod children or the “stealer of the portfolio” himself was able to reach this place?

[...]

- why was a children of a god able to reach the plane while the other children the stealer of the portfolio couldn’t? Please, don’t say “protagonist syndrome”.

That one is easy to solve:

Several COULD reach the plane. But Kazgaroth murdered them.



- How would the plane be hid from Gods, usurpers, and everyone else?

This is a classic Dyson Shell Dilemma: anyone with the means to do it would have no reason to do it.

It's probable that many beings more powerful than Bhaal are aware of the plane and could break into it. But since those beings are more powerful than Bhaal, they would likely gain nothing from releasing the divine T-Rex, and if they just want to deal with the T-Rex so he doesn't hurt people, well... he's stuck in a prison away from everyone else. There are probably some more-powerful-than-Bhaal beings who keep tabs on the T-Rex to see if something happens, but until then there are few reasons to acts.

Less powerful beings who learn about Kazgaroth's situation would be in a similar predicament: if they're powerful enough to break the T-Rex out, it's unlikely they would have any use for him that's worth the risks. Not to mention the cost to break in the plane.

So it leaves the only persons who'd interact with that situation being people who aren't aware of what they're messing with, or who are too desperate/apathetic/chaotic/evil to care, and most of those Kazgaroth would kill himself should they try to do something.



2) I would like to adopt the idea of Kazgaroth being born out of Bhaal.
He follows BhaalÂ’s orders, but has an individuality of his own and acts an independent agent.
To the point that his follower worship him, but adopt MalarÂ’s ethos. Does it make sense?

Sure. Why wouldn't it?



- The first npc they will see will not trust the players. Could he ask to go kill a panther blessed by Kazgaroth himself? Or would that be another reason of disarray, considering that a new party shows up and just shows that Kazgaroth influence is so weak that even a youngster with his party can take care of a creature blessed by Kazgaroth?
Or maybe I could justify the thing by saying that if I wasn’t a true “follower”, there would be many panthers and beasts and players would be overrun. That would be a good justification.

If I were the DM, I would say that it's not killing the blessed animal that's important, it's just "killing something for no reason other than because the NPC told them to" that matters.



- One npc will request the players to learn MalarÂ’s ethos, BhaalÂ’s ethos, and ask him how both ethos can coexist with each other.

Interesting, philosophical and theological discussions can be very fun. Just remember that there is probably no set-in-stone answer, so as long as the PCs can argue the point the NPC will probably be satisfied. Unless there are hard tennets on how those cults intermingle and the NPC is a devoted of that specific interpretation.



- A dragon has taken residence in a near glade; he wishes to purge all Kazgaroth’s followers. The player can take his offer, but the plane with Kazgaroth will be barred to him later (not before Kazgaroth makes him realize the errors of his ways). The issue is that I’m pretty sure one of my player will say: why are you there waiting rather than doing it now ? I guess I could solve it by saying, “I’m resting, tomorrow is the day” and add a timer for the player – if he doesn’t act fast, the grove will be cleansed.

I suggest going with the dragon simply saying "I could do it now, but you showed up, and I can see divine influence on you. Maybe purging them is your role today. If you do not wish to take my offer and its rewards, it is your right. But if it is your answer, state so, and leave me to it."



- Given that Kazgaroth seems to be gone, I would say that his worshippers are in disarray. Could I set up so that there is a certain npc that tries to lure whoever comes in the grove away, by teaching conflicting ethos than the one Kazgaroth has?

Sure.

[King of Nowhere]

So, to sum up (TL;DR):
- why was a children of a god able to reach the plane while the other children the stealer of the portfolio couldn’t? Please, don’t say “protagonist syndrome”.
- How would the plane be hid from Gods, usurpers, and everyone else?


who, but a god, could hide a plane from other gods? maybe the plane was hidden from gods exactly because a god made it to be hidden.

as for why a child of said god would reach that plane, but not the others... maybe kazgoroth is not friendly and killed them. maybe it will try to kill the players too - the players will have to fast talk, or anyway play it smart, or perhaps be forced to flee.

[Entessa]

cut

This is a really helpful post and I have to thank you with a big heart. You made my day.

So to sum up:

- Kazgaroth is not exactly hidden, but he stays in his own plane doing his own stuff


- If you put Kazgaroth in the dnd ecosystem that’s what you would get if you were to be a god/or opposing god:
> if you are stronger than him you don’t care about him
> if you are on par with him you would simply avoid him, because there is always a chance of death
> if you are lower than him he would simply devour you


/////////////////////////////////////////////

I am still thinking how I could make Kazgaroth ally with the Bhaalspawn and the party and I came up with the following ideas; let me know if they sound interesting or too convoluted for you:

1) During the first encounter, Kazgaroth will be hostile to the Bhaalspawn and kill everyone in the party unless during the fight the Bhaalspawn shapes into the slayer – the manifestation of the divinity will surprise him – he will still think that the Bhaalspawn is a mockery to his true Master, but nonetheless, he will change idea about devouring him instantly.


2) Kazgaroth, weaker after Bhaal’s death will ask the player to have a telepathic link with him – I think a cool way would be by him leaving a part of him in the player via a piece of his skin being grafted into the user (or maybe his cold touch could be enough for a telepathic link to happen?).

Kazgaroth will assign one quest for sure, the other I’m decided.

[one quest for sure] Kazgaroth will give an item to the players that can be used to drain a grove of his life essence and of his power; Kazgaroth intentions is to devour it and become stronger.

I think this is an extremely evil action and I’m pretty sure it will attract the attention of something –
how much time should the ritual of draining last and which people/npcs would it attract? I think the players should kill everyone in the druid grove just to be sure to not have unwanted attention


3) Kazgaroth will ask the player to be summoned whenever he is making the last hit when fighting the Bhaalspawns. That is to actually kill them and to take their essence to get stronger. Stupid idea?




4) For this one I'm truly undecided, because I have to find a good reason for Kazgaroth to find the party worthy of an alliance.

[Undecided quest] Kazgaroth will want to corrupt a moonwell and ask the player for help on doing it. 0 Clues on this one and I don’t even know where to begin. In my mind all I see is a huge lake in the center of a valley, and around it there are druids, unicorns, dragons, maybe celestial too? If the player succeeds, Kazgaroth would find on him a valuable ally and help in the last fight against the big bad

OR

to avoid making things ultra complicated and so on, I will go back to the fact that Kazgaroth gives
divine assignment (drain a grove)
and his butler on his plane suggests the player to go to the humans follower

And so…

I would make it so that, after Kazgaroth has drained the grove via the item you deliver him, he reappeared as an Avatar in the place his followers are, only to be ambushed by Celestials ready to kill him. I think some solars will surely do. Kazgaroth will be wounded and will send a message to the party for help.

Do you think that saving his life would be enough for him?
OR
I would go as far as to say that Kazgaroth was too sure of himself, he is dieing, and the player could actually do an even eviler (or a good) action and, while Kazgaroth is not conscient or he is and will accept it because he is dieing, he will try to link his divine force with him to not let it go to waste. Kazgaroth’s life essence is now linked to the Bhaalspawn, but I’m not sure of the consequences:

- would it be that if Kazgaroth dies the Bhaalspawn dies? I would say no. But I would say the opposite is true.

5) By the way, is Kazgaroth being weaker a good reason for doing all of the things above (I mean draining the grove, absorbing the moonwell) or there is no need to make the story more convoluted by adding such a detail? The fact that it didn't come out of the plane for long time would suggest he is weaker. I guess I should leave it up to the player to put the clues together and see if they are satisfied with such an argument.

[Unoriginal]

- If you put Kazgaroth in the dnd ecosystem that’s what you would get if you were to be a god/or opposing god:
> if you are stronger than him you don’t care about him
> if you are on par with him you would simply avoid him, because there is always a chance of death
> if you are lower than him he would simply devour you

Note that this ONLY applies because he's stuck in the plane Bhaal made for him.

If someone releases him or is in the process to do it, you can bet there are many people both higher, equal and lower than him on the food chain that will act in reaction.

My apologies, I can't answer the rest right now. Will have to come back later.

[Entessa]

Note that this ONLY applies because he's stuck in the plane Bhaal made for him.

If someone releases him or is in the process to do it, you can bet there are many people both higher, equal and lower than him on the food chain that will act in reaction.

My apologies, I can't answer the rest right now. Will have to come back later.

Thanks for the clarification, I had missed the point about the imprisonment.

I wonder if self-isolation after Bhaal's death could work as well. But I guess that in this case it would mean that he would still be a moving target.

You don't even imagine how much you are helping me :).

[Unoriginal]

I am still thinking how I could make Kazgaroth ally with the Bhaalspawn and the party and I came up with the following ideas; let me know if they sound interesting or too convoluted for you:

1) During the first encounter, Kazgaroth will be hostile to the Bhaalspawn and kill everyone in the party unless during the fight the Bhaalspawn shapes into the slayer – the manifestation of the divinity will surprise him – he will still think that the Bhaalspawn is a mockery to his true Master, but nonetheless, he will change idea about devouring him instantly.

Good idea, though I think making it Kazgaroth stops attacking when he's like at 30% of his HPs and tell the PCs "alright, I yield. Why are you here and what do you want?" would be a good secondary method.



2) Kazgaroth, weaker after Bhaal’s death will ask the player to have a telepathic link with him – I think a cool way would be by him leaving a part of him in the player via a piece of his skin being grafted into the user (or maybe his cold touch could be enough for a telepathic link to happen?).

Just a touch would likely be enough, but nothing says the T. Rex wouldn't be nastier and ask for a flesh exchange anyway. Or maybe it's just Kazgaroth's influence that manifests on the person via patches of skin turning into his scales or their eyes turning into a copy of his, or other physical changes.



[one quest for sure] Kazgaroth will give an item to the players that can be used to drain a grove of his life essence and of his power; Kazgaroth intentions is to devour it and become stronger.

Sounds nice.



I think this is an extremely evil action and I’m pretty sure it will attract the attention of something –
how much time should the ritual of draining last

It'd say probably a few hours or a day at most, if the essence Kazgaroth left there himself in the first place infuses the place.



which people/npcs would it attract?

First responders: the local spirits, monsters and people living there who would object to the life essence being drained.

Second responders: anyone who keeps tabs on the activitis of Kazgaroth and/or Bhaalspawns, like outsiders or anti-Bhaal organisations.

Third responders: gods, other entities and organisations that want to keep evil from winning and keep the world away from evil's clutches.



3) Kazgaroth will ask the player to be summoned whenever he is making the last hit when fighting the Bhaalspawns. That is to actually kill them and to take their essence to get stronger. Stupid idea?

Not a stupid idea at all, sounds very nice, but I would suggest making this a finishing move (as in, the PC is the one delivering the blow, which take the form of Kazgaroth), as it's more satisfying than having to do a summon at the end of the fight and let it deal the final blow.





4) For this one I'm truly undecided, because I have to find a good reason for Kazgaroth to find the party worthy of an alliance.

[Undecided quest] Kazgaroth will want to corrupt a moonwell and ask the player for help on doing it. 0 Clues on this one and I donÂ’t even know where to begin. In my mind all I see is a huge lake in the center of a valley, and around it there are druids, unicorns, dragons, maybe celestial too? If the player succeeds, Kazgaroth would find on him a valuable ally and help in the last fight against the big bad

OR

to avoid making things ultra complicated and so on, I will go back to the fact that Kazgaroth gives
divine assignment (drain a grove)
and his butler on his plane suggests the player to go to the humans follower

Not sure I see the difference between the two, sorry.



Do you think that saving his life would be enough for him?


Well at this point, Kazgaroth should already consider the group an useful and reliable tool.

I don't think saving his life would make him care about the party or anything.


life essence is now linked to the Bhaalspawn, but IÂ’m not sure of the consequences:

- would it be that if Kazgaroth dies the Bhaalspawn dies? I would say no. But I would say the opposite is true.

If the Bhaalspawn drains Kazgaroth's life, then it makes sense for Kazgaroth to be the one suffering from most of the negative effects while the Bhaalspawn gets a power boost with maybe a couple downside.



5) By the way, is Kazgaroth being weaker a good reason for doing all of the things above (I mean draining the grove, absorbing the moonwell)

Sure.



or there is no need to make the story more convoluted by adding such a detail?

I don't think it's convoluted at all. It's pretty straightforward, in fact.



The fact that it didn't come out of the plane for long time would suggest he is weaker. I guess I should leave it up to the player to put the clues together and see if they are satisfied with such an argument.

I mean, would the players even know how strong he was before?

[Entessa]

Thanks a lot for the help.


Good idea, though I think making it Kazgaroth stops attacking when he's like at 30% of his HPs and tell the PCs "alright, I yield. Why are you here and what do you want?" would be a good secondary method.
Added.

Kazgaroth will say if brought to 30% or resisted for 2 minutes straight: «You resisted my assault. Before today, I didn’t think one of your kind ever could. You are promising, and I wish to spare you for this reason. I will help you, if you help me. Seems a good deal, isn’t it? »

Note that if you turn into the slayer he will say: «Magnificent. I have taken many forms, but none of them can match the beauty of the Slayer. I yield to you, Bhaalspawn. I will help you, if you help me. Seems a good deal, isn’t it?»

If the player doesn’t help him and will ask to simply leave, he will devour him.


It'd say probably a few hours or a day at most, if the essence Kazgaroth left there himself in the first place infuses the place. [/I]
I will have to think about this. For now, Kazgaroth will help you simply because you brought him essence. And if you bring that of many children, he will probably bless you.

If I add the druid grove, Kazgaroth gets a buff when he will be helping you (but later though he will try to kill you in the ending, so it’s kind of a two hedged sword).

1) As an evil player, I would like for players themselves to drain the grove and use the artifact for themselves. This would be a very good idea, but what are the buff a bhaalspawn would get? It’s not that easy to plan for buffs in AD&D, considering that I’m also in a game setting and not a real life setting. The player will be around level 22+, so a buff to stats won’t be interesting (you are near game's end). Any particular idea, even class specific?

2) Any particular blessing that could be interesting if the player is subservient to khazgaroth and does what he asks? Class-specific.
Also, if the player opts for artifact, do you know anything I could have in mind? Strong weapons, rings, a particular shield, an amulet, or maybe an artifact of great power.




3) What would happen if the grove is drained but I didn’t deliver the item to Kazgaroth and consumed it myself? I guess that if blessed by Kazgaroth, I could lose the blessing and Kazgaroth won’t be pleased – I doubt he wouldn’t try to kill them even if they brought him the essence. Do you agree? Or maybe he would be frustrated at most?


First responders: the local spirits, monsters and people living there who would object to the life essence being drained.
Second responders: anyone who keeps tabs on the activitis of Kazgaroth and/or Bhaalspawns, like outsiders or anti-Bhaal organisations.
Third responders: gods, other entities and organisations that want to keep evil from winning and keep the world away from evil's clutches.

4) I would say Driad and nymph would be the first answerer. Maybe some druid.
Second: harpists, they are always everywhere.
Third responders: Dragons. But sent by who, which colour and how many?


Not a stupid idea at all, sounds very nice, but I would suggest making this a finishing move (as in, the PC is the one delivering the blow, which take the form of Kazgaroth), as it's more satisfying than having to do a summon at the end of the fight and let it deal the final blow.

5) I’ve changed the way I do it. The player will receive a chalice, and the chalice will simply attract to himself the essence of the Bhaalspawns killed by the player. Question: the player is able to find a certain druid that is not too rational and I think would be interested in meddling with the chalice. Would the druid be able to mess with the chalice without Kazgaroth noticing? And what could the druid actually do? I wish to make it possible for the player to backstab Kazgaroth.


6) Imagine the elite squad of Kazgaroth assaulting the throne of bhaal together with the bhaalspawn. What is this elite squad? I would say a trio could be good: a strong lycan, a dragon (which color?) and who else?