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Serpentine
2007-12-13, 08:09 AM
If bringing questions of physics into D&D/fantasy kills catgirls, what does biology do?
Anyway, something occurred to me (read: was pointed out) a while ago. In D&D most of the notorious Underdark creatures (drow, duegar, cloakers, etc.) are black or at least darker than their Overdark relatives. In "real life", however, almost everything that has evolved for a subterranean lifestyle are white or pale. So why the discrepancy? It's a trend that's pretty well known. Was there a reason the creators went the other way? A precedent in some saga or fairytale somewhere? A milky-white drow could be just as creepy and alien as an ebony one, so why the ignoring of a fairly well-known real phenomenon?

Tormsskull
2007-12-13, 08:14 AM
If bringing questions of physics into D&D/fantasy kills catgirls, what does biology do?


It causes biology majors and people who think they know biology to come on and discuss the exact scientific reasons why such a thing might be plausible.



Anyway, something occurred to me (read: was pointed out) a while ago. In D&D most of the notorious Underdark creatures (drow, duegar, cloakers, etc.) are black or at least darker than their Overdark relatives. In "real life", however, almost everything that has evolved for a subterranean lifestyle are white or pale. So why the discrepancy? It's a trend that's pretty well known. Was there a reason the creators went the other way? A precedent in some saga or fairytale somewhere? A milky-white drow could be just as creepy and alien as an ebony one, so why the ignoring of a fairly well-known real phenomenon?

Honestly, IMO I think this harkens back to the days of all creatures that are evil are black. Light versus Darkness and all that. Therefore, since most of the creatures that live underground are evil, the designers named the area the "Underdark".

I don't think the fantasy designers/writers were all that concerned with RL biology/evolution and such.

Mordokai
2007-12-13, 08:17 AM
I think the reason Tormsskull pointed out is the correct one. Also, at least drow are supposed to be sexy and hot, and I think black elves look hotter than pale ones. Or maybe that's just me :smallredface:

Matthew
2007-12-13, 08:17 AM
It's supposedly based on scandanavian legends. However, it's very common for evil to be metaphorically or literally associated with darkness. Orcs in Tolkien are occasionally described in this way and demons in medieval texts are very often described as black.

There's also the conception of the Underdark as the 'Underworld', which is to say a figurative hell.

MrEdwardNigma
2007-12-13, 08:18 AM
I think it's got something to do with camouflage, probably. Drow and such live in tunnel systems, accessible by normal humans, so if one fo them gets in there, they need camouflage. A palish white creature would stand out against all the black, while an ebony one would easily sneak up on a human and kill it.

Hyozo
2007-12-13, 08:29 AM
If bringing questions of physics into D&D/fantasy kills catgirls, what does biology do?

Create aging and maximum age rules?

Anyway, let's look at it in a more Darwinian way. There are two types of Drow (or other underdark creature): White and Black. Some natural predator comes, and the white Drow are more noticeable in the dark environment. The predator finds it easier to kill the white Drow, so while the white Drow start to die off, the better adapted black Drow grow in population. Eventually the white Drow die off/ move to the surface, the predator, which has addapted in an environment where white drow could be it's primary food source, dies off(with the exception of the ones which have adapted to the point where a different food source is available), and the black Drow remain.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-13, 08:34 AM
The natural selection explanation is the most likely. However, the real question is, how do dwarves with no access to sunlight or fish manage to avoid vitamin D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D#Diseases_caused_by_deficiency) deficiency? We know they do so because they are famous for having strong bones, not weak ones, but there is no logical reason for them not to break limbs hitting those rocks.

Theodoxus
2007-12-13, 08:37 AM
It should also be noted that most all pale/white/albino underground dwellers are blind. Spending resources on pigmentation when you have no ability to perceive it is bad form. Look at the underground dwellers that aren't blind and you find a myriad of color (and a lot of black to boot): bats, moles, worms, groundhogs, prairie dogs, meerkats, etc.

I think because the races in question are humanoid, they have some - albeit extremely limited - contact with the surface. This would tend to keep them from moving completely into the albino spectrum.

One question my wife always had was 'where do they get their vitamin D?'

edit: freaky ninja! who knew Vit D deficiency was so popular!

Darrin
2007-12-13, 08:40 AM
Anyway, something occurred to me (read: was pointed out) a while ago. In D&D most of the notorious Underdark creatures (drow, duegar, cloakers, etc.) are black or at least darker than their Overdark relatives. In "real life", however, almost everything that has evolved for a subterranean lifestyle are white or pale.

The easy answer is Gygax had a very limited color palette. The original modules were in black and white, some of them just mimeographs and crude photocopies. Two-color offset printing back then was new-fangled and crazy-advanced for the hobby. For a while, monochrome or two-color covers were standard. When TSR started using color artwork on their module covers, the drow were originally blue, since black was being used for the outline color.

The more complicated answer is darkvision completely changes how pigmentation works in underground environments. In the real world, organisms don't waste valuable energy on producing pigmentation in lightless environments, that's energy they can better use elsewhere. But if darkvision allows you to "see", even in only black-and-white, then albinism or bright colors would be very non-adaptive in such an environment. Dark skin that more closely matches the background would prevent enemies from seeing you clearly. Although depending on the dominant color of rock when viewed via darkvision, you might expect to see a lot more grey... and some creatures would still use bright colors for warning or mating purposes.

But yeah, the original thinking on a lot of these creatures was probably black = evil.

Anteros
2007-12-13, 08:44 AM
The Drow were black skinned before being driven underground. As far as duergar and other underground races go...arent they kind've a grayish color?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-12-13, 08:45 AM
The Underdark should probably have been named the Under-Shadowy Illumination. There is all kinds of glow-in-the-dark fungus and the Drows have their artificial sun that provides at least shadowy illumination....

Keld Denar
2007-12-13, 08:59 AM
The Underdark should probably have been named the Under-Shadowy Illumination. There is all kinds of glow-in-the-dark fungus and the Drows have their artificial sun that provides at least shadowy illumination....

By that respect, the 2nd level spell Darkness should be called Shadowy Illumination as well, since instead of blotting out light, it actually creates it. The discription of darkness states that the area is filled with shadowy illumination.

Ironically, casting Darkness in total lightlessness actually provides illumination.

EDIT: To provide something meaningful to the topic, I'd have to agree with the dark=evil thing. Drow are notable for having white hair, not something condusive to the whole "hiding in the underdark" kind of thing. Well, unless you were wearing a helmet or cape or something...like a pwafi or however you spell it.

Freelance Henchman
2007-12-13, 09:04 AM
I think it's got something to do with camouflage, probably. Drow and such live in tunnel systems, accessible by normal humans, so if one fo them gets in there, they need camouflage. A palish white creature would stand out against all the black, while an ebony one would easily sneak up on a human and kill it.

I always supposed that Darkvision is vision in infrared. Thing is, a black body will radiate more heat than a white one (I think, thats what I remember from physics). So a darkvision stealther should be snow-white, not black, unless he radiates no heat at all. Unless a white body will reflect the ambient infrared and would look mirror-rish in Darkvision. Or something.

Serpentine
2007-12-13, 09:24 AM
I think it's got something to do with camouflage, probably. Drow and such live in tunnel systems, accessible by normal humans, so if one fo them gets in there, they need camouflage. A palish white creature would stand out against all the black, while an ebony one would easily sneak up on a human and kill it.This could happen in the real world, too, though, but it doesn't.
These, however:

It should also be noted that most all pale/white/albino underground dwellers are blind. Spending resources on pigmentation when you have no ability to perceive it is bad form. Look at the underground dwellers that aren't blind and you find a myriad of color (and a lot of black to boot): bats, moles, worms, groundhogs, prairie dogs, meerkats, etc.

The more complicated answer is darkvision completely changes how pigmentation works in underground environments. In the real world, organisms don't waste valuable energy on producing pigmentation in lightless environments, that's energy they can better use elsewhere. But if darkvision allows you to "see", even in only black-and-white, then albinism or bright colors would be very non-adaptive in such an environment. Dark skin that more closely matches the background would prevent enemies from seeing you clearly. Although depending on the dominant color of rock when viewed via darkvision, you might expect to see a lot more grey... and some creatures would still use bright colors for warning or mating purposes. work for me. Thanks everybody :smallbiggrin:

The question of vitamin D is, indeed, an interesting one...

fendrin
2007-12-13, 09:24 AM
I always supposed that Darkvision is vision in infrared. Thing is, a black body will radiate more heat than a white one (I think, thats what I remember from physics). So a darkvision stealther should be snow-white, not black, unless he radiates no heat at all. Unless a white body will reflect the ambient infrared and would look mirror-rish in Darkvision. Or something.

I think you are thinking of black bodies as in "black body radiation" which doesn't have all that much to do with color. Basically, a "black body" in physics is an object that absorbs all electromagnetic radiation that falls on it. Now, seeing that when we see an object, it is the light reflecting off of it that we actually see, that means a "black body" is technically invisible, though it still casts a shadow.

To bring that back to infravision, all that absorbed energy has to go somewhere, and like most excess energy, it is converted into kinetic energy on the molecular level, eg heat. Therefore, "black bodies" radiate a LOT of heat.

So a "black body" is either invisible or a shadow to regular vision, and extremely highly visible to infravision.

Ok, so I know physics a bit better than biology, and it really as nothing to do with the topic of the thread...

Bender
2007-12-13, 09:29 AM
I always supposed that Darkvision is vision in infrared. Thing is, a black body will radiate more heat than a white one (I think, thats what I remember from physics). So a darkvision stealther should be snow-white, not black, unless he radiates no heat at all. Unless a white body will reflect the ambient infrared and would look mirror-rish in Darkvision. Or something.
First of all, I remember reading somewhere that darkvision no longer works that way, but I don't remember how official the source was.
Secondly, a black body doesn't radiate more heat than a white, it absorbs more heat, and it radiates a nicer spectrum ('black body' spectrum).
thirdly, any warmblooded creature is in general much hotter than the background, and is going to be very visible in infrared, regardless of it's colour

about the vitamine D: obviously it is in dwarven ale, in some kind of mushrooms they eat, or their bodies can produce it without help.
edit: in fact, how do moles do it? they need strong bones to dig through earth too. (btw, they are as good as blind, so their vision doesn't explain why they have pigment)

Badgerish
2007-12-13, 09:34 AM
As for Dwarves and vitamin D, you are thinking about it the wrong way. Instead of a surface-dwelling race that gets most of it's Vitamin D from the sun, then went underground; Dwarves are probably a naturally underground-dwelling race, thus making their own vitamin D naturally.
(which leads to an odd situation where if you are Vitamin D dependent and get forced to spend alot of time under ground, Dwarven flesh or milk could well be your best source :smalltongue:

the svartalfs (which are either dwarves or dark-elves depending on different stories and translations) from sweadish folklore where dark-skinned as they worked and lived and forges and mines, thus covering them with soot and dust all the time.

Ralfarius
2007-12-13, 09:54 AM
Dwarven milk
:smalleek:

Ashtar
2007-12-13, 10:05 AM
There are two major forms of vitamin D. D2 and D3. In itself, Vitamin D does nothing in the human body, it is only when it is converted into a hormone that it is useful.

D2 is derived from mushrooms, fungi and other plant sources. D3 is usually produced in animals by exposure to sunlight.

D3 is a more efficient (between 3 and 10 times) catalyst for hormone production in the human metabolism. But that simply means that to compensate you would need to eat much more D2 sources.

What do Drow eat? Mushrooms?

--
Edit:
3,5 ounces a day of fish cover 90% of daily value of VitD.
3 ounces of mushrooms provide around 10-13x the daily value of vitD.

fendrin
2007-12-13, 10:09 AM
There are two major forms of vitamin D. D2 and D3. In itself, Vitamin D does nothing in the human body, it is only when it is converted into a hormone that it is useful.

D2 is derived from mushrooms, fungi and other plant sources. D3 is usually produced in animals by exposure to sunlight.

D3 is a more efficient (between 3 and 10 times) catalyst for hormone production in the human metabolism. But that simply means that to compensate you would need to eat much more D2 sources.

What do Drow eat? Mushrooms?

Perhaps they have evolved to not need VitD?

Freelance Henchman
2007-12-13, 10:11 AM
Dwarven flesh or milk

Dwarven milk has a frothy crown and is served in big earthenware mugs. Even to dwarven babies.

Keld Denar
2007-12-13, 10:36 AM
Dwarven milk has a frothy crown and is served in big earthenware mugs. Even to dwarven babies.

Good sir, I believe you are confusing dwarven milk with dwarven holy water. Dwarven holy water is characterized by its deep golden color, frothy head when poored, bitter taste when sipped, and the confused state of mind leading to unconsiousness it produces when consumed in large quantities.

Freelance Henchman
2007-12-13, 10:48 AM
Good sir, I believe you are confusing dwarven milk with dwarven holy water. Dwarven holy water is characterized by its deep golden color, frothy head when poored, bitter taste when sipped, and the confused state of mind leading to unconsiousness it produces when consumed in large quantities.

Well, the holy water is merely an attempt to reproduce the taste and chewey texture of dwarven mother's milk.

Draz74
2007-12-13, 11:13 AM
It should also be noted that most all pale/white/albino underground dwellers are blind. Spending resources on pigmentation when you have no ability to perceive it is bad form. Look at the underground dwellers that aren't blind and you find a myriad of color (and a lot of black to boot): bats, moles, worms, groundhogs, prairie dogs, meerkats, etc.

Hmmm ... but most of these animals are color-blind. As are most brightly-colored surface animals. So apparently pigmentation isn't a wasted resource, even if you can't see (some of) your own pigmentation.

Cuddly
2007-12-13, 11:21 AM
I think pigment is important in absorbing harmful radiation that will damage tissues.

But as to the OP, because dark things are evil.

Cuddly
2007-12-13, 11:23 AM
The natural selection explanation is the most likely. However, the real question is, how do dwarves with no access to sunlight or fish manage to avoid vitamin D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D#Diseases_caused_by_deficiency) deficiency? We know they do so because they are famous for having strong bones, not weak ones, but there is no logical reason for them not to break limbs hitting those rocks.

Clearly they can synthesize themselves.

Zenos
2007-12-13, 11:29 AM
About the vitamin D, maybe underground rivers/lakes, or mushrooms as somebody suggested before me?

Artanis
2007-12-13, 11:33 AM
Or maybe they just don't need Vitamin D in the first place. Hell, we have giant flying lizards that eat rocks and breath lightning, so what's so weird about something not needing a certain vitamin?

Dervag
2007-12-13, 11:46 AM
The natural selection explanation is the most likely. However, the real question is, how do dwarves with no access to sunlight or fish manage to avoid vitamin D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D#Diseases_caused_by_deficiency) deficiency? We know they do so because they are famous for having strong bones, not weak ones, but there is no logical reason for them not to break limbs hitting those rocks.Maybe they produce vitamin D in some way unrelated to sunlight. There almost have to be other ways to synthesize that chemical, and there is no reason to assume that human and dwarven biochemistry work in the same way.


I always supposed that Darkvision is vision in infrared. Thing is, a black body will radiate more heat than a white one (I think, thats what I remember from physics). So a darkvision stealther should be snow-white, not black, unless he radiates no heat at all. Unless a white body will reflect the ambient infrared and would look mirror-rish in Darkvision. Or something.Doesn't work that way.

Thermal radiation due to temperature is called "blackbody radiation" but that doesn't mean black objects radiate more of it when they're at the same temperature than white ones. It just means that the "blackbody radiation" is still being emitted even when the object is not emitting any light of any other colors. For instance, a red object will reflect red light in addition to its blackbody spectrum. A black object will emit only its blackbody spectrum. But if both objects are at the same temperature, they will have the same blackbody spectrum.

If there's sunlight and stuff around, then black objects will absorb more light from their surroundings and therefore have a higher surface temperature, but that doesn't apply to warm-blooded creatures anyway and it isn't relevant underground.

Also, there are some arguments why Darkvision shouldn't be infrared. Infrared light doesn't stop dead in its tracks at 60 feet, and it doesn't allow you to distinguish between two objects of the same size and temperature- so, for instance, you can't use infrared light to tell the difference between a drow and a normal elf.


I think you are thinking of black bodies as in "black body radiation" which doesn't have all that much to do with color. Basically, a "black body" in physics is an object that absorbs all electromagnetic radiation that falls on it. Now, seeing that when we see an object, it is the light reflecting off of it that we actually see, that means a "black body" is technically invisible, though it still casts a shadow.Nah, you could still see it. It would look black, because it's a place in your field of view where there is nothing visible. But your description is accurate.


To bring that back to infravision, all that absorbed energy has to go somewhere, and like most excess energy, it is converted into kinetic energy on the molecular level, eg heat. Therefore, "black bodies" radiate a LOT of heat.They don't necessarily radiate a lot more heat than ordinary objects of the same temperature; our eyes are highly sensitive to 'visible' light (i.e. the kind we evolved to see). So if an object radiates even a small percentage of its total excess energy as 'visible' light, we'll see that percentage.

Also, if you heat a black body enough, its thermal radiation will enter the spectrum of light we can see- so it starts to glow red, then yellow, then blue-white.


Dwarven milk has a frothy crown and is served in big earthenware mugs. Even to dwarven babies.You win.

hamlet
2007-12-13, 11:53 AM
Originally, Drow had "Ultravision" which was an enhanced version of infravision. As my one DM so quaintly put it: "A Drow can see the hot air from a fart at 150 paces."

Gygax himself mentioned that most of the time, "real world biology" was not a factor in how the monsters of the game were created. After all, where, exactly, in the grand scheme of real biology does a Centaur fit? Or, for that matter, an elf.

Most of the time, he drew inspiration from real world myth and "symbology" (not an actual word, but you get the picture). The dark skinned and evil creature dwelling beneath the earth is a common image and one that resonates with the audience of the time. Maybe less so now since, well, all you new plyers are freaks.:smallwink:

Personally, I've always wanted to create a Drow society where they are completely albino and even more lithe than now (does anybody else find Drow curiously over-muscular?), almost skeletal. Their eyes would be larger and reflect light frighteningly, but would be blind to vision as we know it, only seeing in the infra-red and a little of the ultra-violet.

But my players would crucify me if I did.

Wardog
2007-12-13, 01:09 PM
Incidentally although many cave-dwelling animals are white/pale/transparent, many deep-sea creatures are either black or red for camouflage. (Sea-water is a strong absorber of red light, so by the time you get to the deep sea there is none left, and red-pigmented creatures look just as dark as black ones).

Chronos
2007-12-13, 05:23 PM
Doesn't work that way.

Thermal radiation due to temperature is called "blackbody radiation" but that doesn't mean black objects radiate more of it when they're at the same temperature than white ones. It just means that the "blackbody radiation" is still being emitted even when the object is not emitting any light of any other colors. For instance, a red object will reflect red light in addition to its blackbody spectrum. A black object will emit only its blackbody spectrum. But if both objects are at the same temperature, they will have the same blackbody spectrum.

If there's sunlight and stuff around, then black objects will absorb more light from their surroundings and therefore have a higher surface temperature, but that doesn't apply to warm-blooded creatures anyway and it isn't relevant underground.
No.

As it absorbs, so will it emit. A red object doesn't absorb red light (or at least, not as much of it), so it won't emit red light, either. Only a blackbody (which can absorb light of any wavelength) can emit a photon of any wavelength. A truly white object could neither absorb nor emit any light at all, and would be effectively completely isolated optically from its environment: If it has no other source or sink of heat, it'll remain at the same temperature forever, regardless of what environment it's in.

And while an object's appearance in visible light is a poor indicator of its behaviour across the entire spectrum, a true perfect blackbody would appear black in visible light, and a true perfect whitebody would appear white.

Bender
2007-12-14, 08:34 AM
No.

As it absorbs, so will it emit. A red object doesn't absorb red light (or at least, not as much of it), so it won't emit red light, either. Only a blackbody (which can absorb light of any wavelength) can emit a photon of any wavelength. A truly white object could neither absorb nor emit any light at all, and would be effectively completely isolated optically from its environment: If it has no other source or sink of heat, it'll remain at the same temperature forever, regardless of what environment it's in.

And while an object's appearance in visible light is a poor indicator of its behaviour across the entire spectrum, a true perfect blackbody would appear black in visible light, and a true perfect whitebody would appear white.

What you're saying is that copper can never turn red from heat because copper is red, while it is perfectly possible for a copper wire to turn red with heat.
The problem with what you're saying is that an emitted photon doesn't need to have the same wavelength as a received photon. An object on a certain temperature radiates the same, regardless the source of its heat.

fendrin
2007-12-14, 09:25 AM
Nah, you could still see it. It would look black, because it's a place in your field of view where there is nothing visible. But your description is accurate.

Actually, you won't be seeing the object. All you can ever see is a silhouette of the object. A silhouette is just a shadow that is hitting your eyes directly, rather than falling on a surface. If there is no light coming from behind a blackbody object, there would be no silhouette, and thus you could not see the object.

Although I have never seen with a blackbody in the real world (like anyone has...), I did create one once in a 3D simulation. The weird thing about it is that because all you ever see is a silhouette, it always appears 2D. In order to get any idea of the true shape of the object, you have to view it from multiple angles, and even then many details will be completely lost.


And while an object's appearance in visible light is a poor indicator of its behaviour across the entire spectrum, a true perfect blackbody would appear black in visible light, and a true perfect whitebody would appear white.Well, no. I described a blackbody already. A whitebody would be a perfect mirror. The interesting thing about a whitebody vs. a blackbody is that you can get a sense of the shape of the whitebody because the shape will affect the angles at which the light is reflected.

Freelance Henchman
2007-12-14, 10:28 AM
Although I have never seen with a blackbody in the real world (like anyone has...), I did create one once in a 3D simulation. The weird thing about it is that because all you ever see is a silhouette, it always appears 2D. In order to get any idea of the true shape of the object, you have to view it from multiple angles, and even then many details will be completely lost.

Presumably a "real" blackbody would still create a shadow though. If it was e.g. cube-shaped and lying on your desk, you might be able to discern something about it's shape by lighting it with a lamp. Although it would appear "2D" itself, you could still see it's shadow. If it gets dusted with minimal specks of, well, dust, you would be able to discern its shape more and more clearly I guess.

Khanderas
2007-12-14, 10:31 AM
First of all, I remember reading somewhere that darkvision no longer works that way, but I don't remember how official the source was.
Secondly, a black body doesn't radiate more heat than a white, it absorbs more heat, and it radiates a nicer spectrum ('black body' spectrum).
thirdly, any warmblooded creature is in general much hotter than the background, and is going to be very visible in infrared, regardless of it's colour

about the vitamine D: obviously it is in dwarven ale, in some kind of mushrooms they eat, or their bodies can produce it without help.
edit: in fact, how do moles do it? they need strong bones to dig through earth too. (btw, they are as good as blind, so their vision doesn't explain why they have pigment)
Did a test in physics lab with a white painted tube filled with water and a black painted tube of water. Added themormeters in the tubes. Then shone a heatlight on the tubes.

The black absorbed the heat faster (temperature went up faster) but it also LOST the heat faster when the lamp was removed.

Therefore it would, in the cold, dark underdak, be good to be pale. No light = no visibility in the visible spectrum anyway and keeping bodyheat is a huge thing.


(Not a scientific fact, personal theoy/opinion ahead) Maybe that is just me, but I have noted that dark skinned people gets cold much faster then I (Sweden here) in winter and since we all know we are all the same inside... the color is what makes the difference. On the other side, in the summer, they are still cooler then I (temperature wise, smart@$$). This supports my thesis from the white / black waterfilled tube experiments.

tyckspoon
2007-12-14, 02:32 PM
(Not a scientific fact, personal theoy/opinion ahead) Maybe that is just me, but I have noted that dark skinned people gets cold much faster then I (Sweden here) in winter and since we all know we are all the same inside... the color is what makes the difference. On the other side, in the summer, they are still cooler then I (temperature wise, smart@$$). This supports my thesis from the white / black waterfilled tube experiments.

They could just be acclimated to different temperature ranges. If they moved in from more equatorial zones (even northern Africa or Mediterranean Europe would be enough) then they would be used to warmer temperatures in general; it's not so much that they gain or lose body heat faster, Swedish winters just feel colder to them and Swedish summers not so hot.

Greenfaun
2007-12-14, 04:29 PM
Ah, I love geeky meta-geekery.

Actually, as for drow being dark, I have an alternate theory. In every edition, drow have been in some way disadvantaged or debilitated by sunlight. What if the sunlight problems came first, and caused the dark skin and subterranean lifestyle?

So, first we posit some sort of mutation (or race-wide curse, this is fantasy after all) in which exposure to sunlight causes big problems. It would have to be metabolic, not merely vision-related, because their skin became dark in response. There are a few genetic and autoimmune disorders that cause hypersensitivity to sunlight (Heh -- what if all drow have lupus? House would be so psyched!) and natural selection would quickly skew the population towards those with the most inborn defenses, i.e. the ones with the most melanin in their skins. Of course, even being dark-skinned wouldn't be sufficient protection, it would just make it so they can get around in the sunlight occasionally if necessary. To lead a happy and healthy life, they'd have to avoid UV exposure altogether. Hello, Underdark!

Once a few populations of drow got established underground, presumably by learning the necessary survival skills (don't eat the mushrooms with blue spots, etc) then they would quickly outperform the populations living on the surface, who would presumably be eking out a nocturnal existence and expending a lot of resources on health problems and building sunlight-proof dwellings for the daytime hours. The surface drow would also have an incentive to just pack up and join their thriving subterranean cousins whenever possible. Eventually, surface drow would be nearly unheard-of, while the majority of the race are expanding into the new niche of being all goth and badass underground.

As for why they stay darkskinned with the selection pressure of the sun removed, there are possibilities. Perhaps the darkvision camouflage theory has merit, although presumably drow, like other humanoids, are wearing clothing most of the time, and thus skin-color-based camouflage is a minor concern. It's possible that they still need all the radiation protection they can get, perhaps even glowing fungus and underground background radiation would be harmful if they lost their dense melanin. Or perhaps, as an evil and chauvinistic race, they kill unusual-looking babies at birth, and therefore exert unnatural selection-pressure, weeding out pale-skinned children along with hunchbacks etc., and so their population doesn't have a chance to drift.

Grim Greyscale
2007-12-14, 05:20 PM
I think everyone is just overthinking this. A Wizard Did It.

Ralfarius
2007-12-14, 07:30 PM
Greenfaun has an interesting point. Drow are xenophobic to the extreme, so if they started out with a dark skin, then children deviating from the norm would be much more likely to be killed, or otherwise driven from society at a younger age and denied a chance to proliferate.

Drider
2007-12-14, 07:59 PM
I think everyone is just overthinking this. A Wwwwwwwizard Did It.

THAT MAKES NO SCIENTIFIC SENSE!!!lol

Chronos
2007-12-14, 08:16 PM
What you're saying is that copper can never turn red from heat because copper is red, while it is perfectly possible for a copper wire to turn red with heat.
The problem with what you're saying is that an emitted photon doesn't need to have the same wavelength as a received photon. An object on a certain temperature radiates the same, regardless the source of its heat.No, because copper isn't pure red, just reddish. Copper can still absorb some red photons, just not all of them. So it can still emit some red photons, too, just not as many as a true blackbody would. A piece of copper (or, in fact, any metal) makes a lousy blackbody, though, since most light that hits it is just reflected, not absorbed (and hence, it can't emit much, either). That's why thermoses have metal layers adjacent to vacuum: You can't get conduction or convection through the vacuum, and the metal surfaces cut down the radiative heat losses.

Well, no. I described a blackbody already. A whitebody would be a perfect mirror.A perfect mirror would be one example of a whitebody, and in fact it's probably the easiest way to make one (see the polished metal in a thermos, mentioned above). But you could have a whitebody which didn't act as a mirror, and such an object would be what we call white. Both a white object and a mirror will reflect all light which hits them; the difference is just that a mirror reflects light only in one particular direction, while a normal white object reflects the light in all directions. But the definition of an ideal whitebody doesn't depend on the direction in which the light is reflected, so either would qualify.

Again, though, visible light is a very small portion of the spectrum, so how something interacts with visible light isn't all that great of an indicator of how it interacts with the rest of the spectrum.

bosssmiley
2007-12-15, 08:42 AM
THAT MAKES NO SCIENTIFIC SENSE!!!lol

Hi. Welcome to D&D. :smallwink:

Doomsy
2007-12-15, 03:13 PM
They've only been in the caves for three or four thousand years, tops, and elves are a relatively slow breeding society with very long lives, which seems like it would encourage genetic stability since you'd basically have the original stock around for quite a while. All of the Drow stories I've heard said they got pushed into the caves for being jerks of some kind, and evolution is not exactly a fast process in the first place once you get to the point where things start wearing clothes and making funny noises at each other.

I now wonder what a neanderthal version of an elf would be, though.

Freelance Henchman
2007-12-15, 04:52 PM
I now wonder what a neanderthal version of an elf would be, though.

An orc maybe? What with the pointy ears and such.

Freelance Henchman
2007-12-15, 05:24 PM
(Double post)

Shoyliguad
2007-12-15, 11:52 PM
I'm guessing its impossible that they creater said let their be awesome elves who have black skin and white hair for the simple fact that it looks amazing? No thats impossible = )

Dode
2007-12-15, 11:58 PM
Maybe the explanation for the Drow's skin tone is like the Mormons' explanation for black and native american peoples' dark skins - They were cowardly or evil so God punished them with a higher melanin, allowing them to endure higher levels of UV radiation and decrease their chances of skin cancer.


And the Drow are evil, after all.

Talic
2007-12-16, 12:55 AM
I always supposed that Darkvision is vision in infrared. Thing is, a black body will radiate more heat than a white one (I think, thats what I remember from physics). So a darkvision stealther should be snow-white, not black, unless he radiates no heat at all. Unless a white body will reflect the ambient infrared and would look mirror-rish in Darkvision. Or something.

No. N.O. NO. Drow are not cool enough to get predator vision.

Look at the dwarf entry in the PHb. It outlines black-and-white.