OOTS #1296 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Tubercular Ox

2024-01-23, 09:51 AM

So the calendar encounter with the OOTScribble is canon; that begs the question of how Calder was alive after they split since that's when Serini built her dungeon. Did they spare him for some reason? Soon refusing to kill an unconscious opponent? Lirian having some hippie dippie reason to keep him alive like she did with Team Evil? His cult still had some followers who resurrected him? Or did Serini somehow resurrect him inside this chamber and he accepted thinking he could beat whatever trap she had planned for him? Don't think it was Girard having some kind of pro-dragon sentiment since he seems to be enjoying himself slashing up Calder.

There are rules in earlier editions for how to subdue a dragon, forcing it to work for you until it decides it can break free. The calendar picture even has "Subdue Dragon" as its caption to hint that that's what they did.

EDIT: I look again and see that only half-answers your questions. So let me add some of my own: Did they think it was cool to have a dragon working for them? Did they have tasks that needed doing that only a powerful dragon could do?

Blue Dragon

2024-01-23, 09:58 AM

The author certainly knows his audience. I just wish it was longer.

BloodSquirrel

2024-01-23, 09:59 AM

Wow, what a surprise- I was really expecting to find out that Calder was working at a soup kitchen when Serini tricked him into a van with candy and kidnapped him.

Yeah, I'm moving Calder into the "for-sure evil" column. Creating your own cult of people who worship you as a deity is pretty far down the not-nice path.

Not so fast- the comic hasn't explicitly shown us that Calder didn't mend his ways after the Scribblers defeated him and spend the next ten years helping people and seeking redemption before Serini attacked him again out of the blue, defeating him by using orphans as human shields and trapping him in the dungeon. Maybe he's just a little cranky and he'll apologize next strip.

Windscion

2024-01-23, 09:59 AM

Calder the dragon seems pretty confident. If it took all the scribblers to take him down, such confidence is reasonable. We don't know where the scribblers were in progression (mid or high level) or how strong his cult was. But right here, I don't see dominate/charm/whatever being a winning strategy. The Stickies have been thru that before, against multiple vampires each of whom could make multiple attempts to dominate party members.

The only real worry I can see is what Sunny might do.

Hiro Quester

2024-01-23, 10:05 AM

That’s Elan perfectly embodying a very low Wisdom score. His impulses are not constrained by “basic relationship stuff”

Psyren

2024-01-23, 10:11 AM

I"m going to hazard a guess that beating this dragon that took all of the Scribblers to take down last time is what will make serini respect the crew.

Unfortunately, her respect won't mean much if they have to burn through their biggest guns before TE even shows up :smalleek:

How many levels would Minra advance if they defeat the dragon?

No more than 2 (and realistically it'd be 1.9) if we're going by RAW, IIRC. But its the Giant's playground.

Yeah, I'm moving Calder into the "for-sure evil" column. Creating your own cult of people who worship you as a deity is pretty far down the not-nice path.

Well yeah, that's what the color-coding is for :smalltongue:

The Order wasn't right to do a home invasion on ABD's kid, but she herself was still evil.

The only real worry I can see is what Sunny might do.

I'd wager not much. Beholders usually have to choose between the big eye and the smaller ones, and Sunny's big eye is occupied with suppressing the binding circle so Calder can attack.

Unoriginal

2024-01-23, 10:12 AM

Pretty great page.

The panel with the mind-controlled dragon cultists paints a very ghastly and vivid impression of what hell living in that state was.

I think my earlier hypothesis that facing the dragon in this room giving an adventuring party the advantage is accurate, it seems Calder has troubles positioning himself optimally while the group has plenty of space to spread out.

Meanwhile, on the narrow bridge with high ceiling of the previous room, which intruders fleeing the dragon would have to cross, the opposite would be true.

EDIT:

Interesting detail: the panel has the cultists and Calder under a pretty purple sky. I wonder if it's an indicator that the Rift that would become Kraagor's Gate was close and coloring said sky.

Creating your own cult of people who worship you as a deity is pretty far down the not-nice path.

I mean, The "creating a cult that worship you as a deity" isn't necessarily not-nice. Otherwise there would be no good deity.

It's the "mind-controlling people to worship you" and "making them do it against their will" parts that put it into the evil category.

It looks like Elan was the only person reduced to zero HP (although he was still talking, because Elan).

Doesn't looks like 0 HP to me, but failed-the-save is probable.

Shining Wrath

2024-01-23, 10:13 AM

What Serini says is that it took all 6 of the Scribblers to take down "his organization", which may or may not have included Calder himself; but since he's here, and we have the evidence of the calendar, it seems that the Scribblers subdued Calder and he wound up here. Since we don't see him in the other scenes of the Scribblers, they may have imprisoned Calder. Letting him go seems to not be an option, and who knows why they didn't kill him (perhaps some sort of bargain to free his cultists?).

In fact, they may have imprisoned him here. And this room is the start to Serini's dungeon; Serini's dungeon is here rather than somewhere more temperate because this is where the Scribblers put Calder.

A positive sign is that Haley scored a hit with at least one arrow. Calder's AC is not "untouchable", just high.

And there may be some ancestral magic about to show up for Roy's sword.

Kardwill

2024-01-23, 10:16 AM

Yeah, I'm moving Calder into the "for-sure evil" column. Creating your own cult of people who worship you as a deity is pretty far down the not-nice path.

"That's basic relationship stuff" is a classic.

It looks like Elan was the only person reduced to zero HP (although he was still talking, because Elan). V must have made their save.

Also, Durkon still had a "Mass Resist" spell prepared, good for him.

Well, they were planning on taking Xykon, who is known to enjoy direct-damage elemental evocations. Mostly fire, sure, but he also likes to dispel his enemies' magical defenses, so a spare protection spell is a logical choice.

Still shocking that Durkon has the right spell for today's random encounter, though ^^.
But the little guy has come a long way, like the rest of the Order.

Tubercular Ox

2024-01-23, 10:20 AM

Not so fast- the comic hasn't explicitly shown us that Calder didn't mend his ways after the Scribblers defeated him and spend the next ten years helping people and seeking redemption before Serini attacked him again out of the blue, defeating him by using orphans as human shields and trapping him in the dungeon. Maybe he's just a little cranky and he'll apologize next strip.

What if all his cult members were a carefully curated list of moral exceptions? Like the guy with the bandage is actually possessed by the spirit of Vecna and it can't be dispelled? And Roy is a unwitting ally of a vile slaver who just needs to be contained long enough to be exposed to the truth? And he'll apologize next strip.

Interesting detail: the panel has the cultists and Calder under a pretty purple sky. I wonder if it's an indicator that the Rift that would become Kraagor's Gate was close and coloring said sky.

That's a sky? They're not in a cave? Calder isn't squatting on his hoard?

BloodSquirrel

2024-01-23, 10:22 AM

In fact, they may have imprisoned him here. And this room is the start to Serini's dungeon; Serini's dungeon is here rather than somewhere more temperate because this is where the Scribblers put Calder.

Serini's dungeon is here because that's where the gate is.

Ghosty

2024-01-23, 10:24 AM

The author certainly knows his audience. I just wish it was longer. Looking forward the next one. {scrub the post, scrub the quote}

We all look forward to the next one.
It comes when it comes, and we furiously mash F5 until then. This is making my day, thanks Giant.

Love the scene. Surprised no one died, actually. If Calder needs to be an even older dragon than Ancient to cast Dominate Monster (as we thought he needed for Sunny), that means an even more fearsome breath weapon than 20d10, with an even tougher than DC 36 Save.

Curious to see what V and Durkon, plus the Paladins, are about to do. I'm sure it will be massive. Oh, and I guess Roy's family sword helps him ignore Dominate attempts? Neat use of Bluff by Haley too!

hamishspence

2024-01-23, 10:31 AM

That or he has levels in Sorcerer - Sorcerer casting stacks with dragon casting, so, for example, an Ancient Red dragon (casts as 15th level sorcerer) with 3 levels of Sorcerer, will cast as an 18th level sorcerer.

Leliel

2024-01-23, 10:31 AM

Kardwill

2024-01-23, 10:34 AM

Calder the dragon seems pretty confident.

"The Scribblers little touchy-feely halfling rogue and a bunch of (probably mid level) nonames I never heard about? Yeah, I can take them."

He's still in the course of assessing the situation. That's the reason he saw Roy as cultist material, and not as a threat. He throws different attacks and sees what works.
That perception might change as the fight continues.

Tubercular Ox

2024-01-23, 10:38 AM

Curious to see what V and Durkon, plus the Paladins, are about to do. I'm sure it will be massive. Oh, and I guess Roy's family sword helps him ignore Dominate attempts?

I thought the same thing, but no: He really does have Mind Blank. His sword is pwokking back to him in that panel, which is enough cause for green eyes.

Beni-Kujaku

2024-01-23, 10:40 AM

We all look forward to the next one.
It comes when it comes, and we furiously mash F5 until then. This is making my day, thanks Giant.

Love the scene. Surprised no one died, actually. If Calder needs to be an even older dragon than Ancient to cast Dominate Monster (as we thought he needed for Sunny), that means an even more fearsome breath weapon than 20d10, with an even tougher than DC 36 Save.

Curious to see what V and Durkon, plus the Paladins, are about to do. I'm sure it will be massive. Oh, and I guess Roy's family sword helps him ignore Dominate attempts? Neat use of Bluff by Haley too!

He did not cast Dominate Monster, only Dominate Person. And Serini said he has levels in Mindbender, which allows for a nonverbal Suggestion, and is probably what Calder used on Sunny. There is no evidence that Calder is above Ancient, or even above Very Old.

Tzardok

2024-01-23, 10:43 AM

Edward15

2024-01-23, 10:45 AM

Kardwill

2024-01-23, 10:46 AM

That's a sky? They're not in a cave? Calder isn't squatting on his hoard?

It looks like a mountain/volcanic landscape with clouds above

As for colored sky, the Crayons show that Kraagor's breach had a normal blue sky (IIRC, It was Dorukan's breach that had a funky colored sky)

But it's probably just dramatic lighting. Awesome shot, BTW. The dragon has a gorgeous "oldschool Disney" look :)

Banderwock

2024-01-23, 10:55 AM

Great page! I can almost taste the narrative conclusion on the horizon.

Minor error (probably) in panel 5: "I think we ALL could ALL use some more healing." Don't need all twice.

Thanks for all of it Giant.

Provengreil

2024-01-23, 10:57 AM

On the one hand, I don't feel sorry for the dragon for being trapped down there since he's a creepy cultist leader. On the other hand, I question Seirini's sanity. Rather than eliminate a creature she knows fully well is dangerous and was powerful enough to require her entire party, she decides to make it part of the defenses protecting Kraagor's Gate?

Yeah, that's a definite example of Evil is Not a Toy.

On the note of defenses, by the way, wouldn't taking that beast down qualify as "weakening them"?

The Order isn't exactly choosing this fight, Calder nailed Sunny with something and escaped on his own. We still haven't heard how the stasis allows this though.

My bets are that either Dorukan(who aided Serini with the stasis trap construction) didn't care that the monsters could still think, or that the threads weakened the stasis on Calder but he was still trapped on the spot. Neither explanation really says why his cage shows damage though. I'm hoping the next strip or two answers that because it'll probably have effects on how we view the entire rest of the dungeon.

Beni-Kujaku

2024-01-23, 11:09 AM

The Order isn't exactly choosing this fight, Calder nailed Sunny with something and escaped on his own. We still haven't heard how the stasis allows this though.

My take is that Calder was the litteral first monster to be trapped here (being defeated way before the Scribbles disbanded, and possibly being sealed on the spot), and thus that his prison was more rudimentary, only paralyzing him rather than a full stasis. And everytime they tried to tighten the cuffs, he took control of people and was only barely restrained again, hence the fight marks in the room.

Precure

2024-01-23, 11:11 AM

I can't believe Girard plagiarized his "dragon tattooed cult" idea from someone else.

Kardwill

2024-01-23, 11:19 AM

My take is that Calder was the litteral first monster to be trapped here

That's also my theory, but his circle is exactly similar to the other ones we saw in this dungeon.

Metastachydium

2024-01-23, 11:43 AM

Belkar still has that Evasion, after all! Wild!

I"m going to hazard a guess that beating this dragon that took all of the Scribblers to take down last time is what will make serini respect the crew.

Well, technically, what took all six of them to take down was his operation, rather than just him, including at least eight (but probably more) cultists.

Precure

2024-01-23, 11:45 AM

Wow, what a surprise- I was really expecting to find out that Calder was working at a soup kitchen when Serini tricked him into a van with candy and kidnapped him.

Not so fast- the comic hasn't explicitly shown us that Calder didn't mend his ways after the Scribblers defeated him and spend the next ten years helping people and seeking redemption before Serini attacked him again out of the blue, defeating him by using orphans as human shields and trapping him in the dungeon. Maybe he's just a little cranky and he'll apologize next strip.

What will you do when the next strip reveal that Calder's victims were terrible evil people that deserve it.

Metastachydium

2024-01-23, 11:50 AM

What will you do when the next strip reveal that Calder's victims were terrible evil people that deserve it.

Remind everyone that if he then used them as litterboxes for cats with a bout of diarrhea (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html), he could still, perhaps, qualify as True Neutral.

KorvinStarmast

2024-01-23, 11:50 AM

Don't contradict your girlfriend in front of the enemy does seem like pretty basic relationship advice for adventurers. Especially for Elan. The last three panels were good stuff. (Once again, the Minrah fan club are not disappointed). I also like how cheeky Haley is, trying to bluff a very old (or ancient?) dragon. Rogue is gonna rogue! :smallsmile:

Elan is so sweet and annoyingly still a bit naive. Elan is a genuinely nice guy who, as an adventurer, demonstrates that he is dangerously stupid. (And he forgot that he could have discussed all of this telepathically, as Roy and Minrah do...)

I'm still not sold on this whole idea of having both dungeons and dragons. It's a work in progress ... and for what it's worth, 50 years of progress as of this month. :smallsmile:

Bonus points to Durkon for actually having the right spells prepared... For... Oh gods, HE'S STILL A VAMPIRE!!! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html) Oh dear, when will the other shoe drop?

There are rules in earlier editions for how to subdue a dragon, forcing it to work for you until it decides it can break free. The calendar picture even has "Subdue Dragon" as its caption to hint that that's what they did. I went ahead and bought all of the old calendars digitally during the Christmas sale. That subdue dragon picture is quite nice.

Did they think it was cool to have a dragon working for them? Did they have tasks that needed doing that only a powerful dragon could do? Considering Girard's ego, "I have a dragon working for me" is the kind of brag that he'd be into.

Wow, what a surprise- I was really expecting to find out that Calder was working at a soup kitchen when Serini tricked him into a van with candy and kidnapped him.

Not so fast- the comic hasn't explicitly shown us that Calder didn't mend his ways after the Scribblers defeated him and spend the next ten years helping people and seeking redemption before Serini attacked him again out of the blue, defeating him by using orphans as human shields and trapping him in the dungeon. Maybe he's just a little cranky and he'll apologize next strip. Laughed, I did. Thank you.
:smallsmile:

My take is that Calder was the literal first monster to be trapped here (being defeated way before the Scribbles disbanded, and possibly being sealed on the spot), and thus that his prison was more rudimentary, only paralyzing him rather than a full stasis. And everytime they tried to tighten the cuffs, he took control of people and was only barely restrained again, hence the fight marks in the room. And coincidentally just happened to be near Kraagor's rift? Maybe so, but it seems a bit overly convenient.

Thanks Giant. Great illustration / depiction of a dragon-versus-party fight.

I also like the inserting of Calder's hubris: him figuring that he'll get Roy (charismatic leader) to begin his new dragon cult now that he's free from the stasis.
To thine own self be true.

BloodSquirrel

2024-01-23, 11:51 AM

What will you do when the next strip reveal that Calder's victims were terrible evil people that deserve it.

I'll have to come up with some new interpretation of the strip that relies on some completely baseless and contrived assumptions, criticize it as a bad writing, and insist that anyone who disagrees has the burden to disprove my unfalsifiable speculation.

KorvinStarmast

2024-01-23, 12:00 PM

I almost Forgot:
Haley's Pink Bow does Cold damage. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html)
That ought to be of some benefit against a red dragon, yes? (+5 Icy Burst ...)

BloodSquirrel

2024-01-23, 12:00 PM

And coincidentally just happened to be near Kraagor's rift? Maybe so, but it seems a bit overly convenient.

Not coincidence, necessarily. Calder could have set up camp there because the rift was useful/interesting to him (although the background in the flashback panel doesn't look like it). And, given the way the universe works in this strip "rifts attract high-level threats" makes sense. It would also make sense because being at the rift would explain why the Scribblers were fighting him.

But, still, the dungeon is there because that's where the rift is. Calder being there already would just be a bonus.

KorvinStarmast

2024-01-23, 12:02 PM

Not coincidence, necessarily. Calder could have set up camp there because the rift was useful/interesting to him (although the background in the flashback panel doesn't look like it). And, given the way the universe works in this strip "rifts attract high-level threats" makes sense. It would also make sense because being at the rift would explain why the Scribblers were fighting him.

But, still, the dungeon is there because that's where the rift is. Calder being there already would just be a bonus. Fair enough, and there was a cult near at least one of the rifts (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

Shining Wrath

2024-01-23, 12:11 PM

Yeah, I still think it's wrong on principle...but I can't say the logic isn't poetic.

Dante enters the chat, says "Contrapasso (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrapasso)!", exits smiling.

Gotta wonder how Calder was transported against his will to the Gate, since I must concede the dungeon protects the Gate.

Unless, of course, it doesn't, and Serini has pulled the shell trick one last time, and the Gate is under the ocean or inside a clam or something like that.

It would probably serve the purposes of a dragon trying to enslave people into their cult to be near a Rift, which is likely to attract visitors.

BloodSquirrel

2024-01-23, 12:20 PM

Fair enough, and there was a cult near at least one of the rifts (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

Yeah, they even say "Defeated those who would use them for their own purpose".

Also, just thinking about this- did TE wind up going to the gates in the same order that the Scribblers did? The first and last gate seem to be the same, and Calder being at the last rift and the most powerful opponent they faced would make sense.

And, really speculating here- if Calder was there at the battle for the last rift, we might find out from him how the battle went down and what drove the Scribblers apart. We might have a witness who can tell us some things that Serini either won't or has a skewed view of herself.

Unless, of course, it doesn't, and Serini has pulled the shell trick one last time, and the Gate is under the ocean or inside a clam or something like that.

That would hard to explain, since we see the rift in the Crayons of Time strips.

Trixie_One

2024-01-23, 12:21 PM

I can't believe Girard plagiarized his "dragon tattooed cult" idea from someone else.

Heh, that's great, also Hbomberguy would surely not approve.

Also I don't think it matters how evil Calder is (and the obvious answer is VERY) it's still doesn't mean that you get an ethical pass for enslaving him. Some things are just wrong no matter big a git that you're doing it to is.

BloodSquirrel

2024-01-23, 12:30 PM

Also I don't think it matters how evil Calder is (and the obvious answer is VERY) it's still doesn't mean that you get an ethical pass for enslaving him. Some things are just wrong no matter big a git that you're doing it to is.

As of now, it remains "imprisoned" and not "enslaved", because there is still no compulsion in place to make him fight anyone. He's just such a big ******* that he can be counted on to try to murder whosoever comes his way.

Unoriginal

2024-01-23, 12:38 PM

He did not cast Dominate Monster, only Dominate Person. And Serini said he has levels in Mindbender, which allows for a nonverbal Suggestion, and is probably what Calder used on Sunny. There is no evidence that Calder is above Ancient, or even above Very Old.

As Miko and Elan have debated, Serini saying he's "a bit of a mindbender" does not constitute evidence Calder has levels in Mindbender.

Lord Torath

2024-01-23, 12:53 PM

I love Mimi lengthening her legs to avoid the worst of the fire! :smallbiggrin:

Many thanks, Rich!

jidasfire

2024-01-23, 01:04 PM

Not much to say about this other than I really liked the panel with the dragon cult and Calder in the background. Giant's art never ceases to impress.

TaiLiu

2024-01-23, 01:24 PM

Like a lot of other people, I really like the Calder background art in panel four. It might be the first time we've seen a lineless creature in the comic.

I'm still not sold on this whole idea of having both dungeons and dragons.

I can't believe Girard plagiarized his "dragon tattooed cult" idea from someone else.
These are good jokes. :smallbiggrin:

Beni-Kujaku

2024-01-23, 01:47 PM

As Miko and Elan have debated, Serini saying he's "a bit of a mindbender" does not constitute evidence Calder has levels in Mindbender.

On the one hand, true. On the other hand, that class has an ability that exactly replicates what we have seen Calder do to Sunny, which is not something that a paralyzed dragon is natively able to do. So it's not guaranteed, but it's definitely a good probability.

Shining Wrath

2024-01-23, 01:58 PM

Yeah, they even say "Defeated those who would use them for their own purpose".

Also, just thinking about this- did TE wind up going to the gates in the same order that the Scribblers did? The first and last gate seem to be the same, and Calder being at the last rift and the most powerful opponent they faced would make sense.

And, really speculating here- if Calder was there at the battle for the last rift, we might find out from him how the battle went down and what drove the Scribblers apart. We might have a witness who can tell us some things that Serini either won't or has a skewed view of herself.

That would hard to explain, since we see the rift in the Crayons of Time strips.

The Crayons of Time strips were drawn by who, exactly? Why, Serini.

Who was perhaps crafty enough to realize that if she was going to pull the ultimate shell trick of all time, she shouldn't give it away in her diary?

gatemansgc

2024-01-23, 01:58 PM

I was pretty loathe to even touch the discussions that sprang up around the morality of trapping Calder in here, and I still am, but you gotta appreciate the irony of making a dragon that wants to enslave people on sight work for you.

I do still doubt that the Order will beat him in direct combat though. Seems too....basic for the story being told at this point.

did it really get that toxic? i'm going to guess lots of {scrubbed} was involved.

i think so too. the defenses in this final dungeon are just too good. the battle with calder is going to break a path through them to make team evil's path easier.

Unoriginal

2024-01-23, 02:11 PM

The Crayons of Time strips were drawn by who, exactly?

By Lord Shojo, according to what was told to his father and him by Soon.

Who was perhaps crafty enough to realize that if she was going to pull the ultimate shell trick of all time, she shouldn't give it away in her diary?

She did lie about the location of Kraagor's Gate in her diary, that is a fact.

On the one hand, true. On the other hand, that class has an ability that exactly replicates what we have seen Calder do to Sunny, which is not something that a paralyzed dragon is natively able to do. So it's not guaranteed, but it's definitely a good probability.

True, it is more than possible.

I'm just saying that describing someone who can control the minds of others as a "mindbender" colloquially is also fitting.

Coyote0715

2024-01-23, 02:30 PM

Where did the paladins go? Did they not make it into the room yet?

Tubercular Ox

2024-01-23, 02:32 PM

Where did the paladins go? Did they not make it into the room yet?

Panel 8 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1295.html) suggests possibly they got left behind. Or they could magically appear later on, it's one of the benefits of lots of off-panel time.

arimareiji

2024-01-23, 02:38 PM

gatemansgc

2024-01-23, 03:01 PM

Leave it to Elan to contradict Haley's bluff… out loud, when the telepathy is still working. (o_0)

With apologies to Elan fans, I think "Elan" may now qualify as a verb. Defined as "to exemplify a WIS score that can be measured on one (Mimi) hand".

yeah he's lacking in both INT and WIS, lol. what chapter was it when belkar was like "taking the biggest dump since elan did his intelligence stat"?

Beni-Kujaku

2024-01-23, 03:20 PM

Provengreil

2024-01-23, 04:44 PM

did it really get that toxic? i'm going to guess lots of {scrubbed} was involved.

I don't remember seeing a lot of scrubbing or even outright toxicity, I just didn't care to get in on the discussion. Any defensible position at the time required a ton of assumptions we couldn't possibly rely on or was reductively simple, neither of which interested me: I'll wait for a little more juice before I squeeze this one.

gatemansgc

2024-01-23, 05:00 PM

Wait a second... We have seen a full round's worth of actions‚ with Roy attacking twice and everybody acting in between. But we haven't seen someone whose actions in combat are generally the most impactful of the order. Is it time for the second Soul Custody of Vaarsuvius?

almost forgot about that. it would be a cool time to see the IFCC again, plus leave the order without their main magic user so that calder can rampage and destroy all the defenses so that team evil won't be stopped by them!

Psyren

2024-01-23, 05:02 PM

Where did the paladins go? Did they not make it into the room yet?

I was thinking the same. Either they were left behind entirely, or they were the last ones to hitch a ride on Mimi... but she's in the room, so if it was the latter, I would have expected them to be as well.

SlashDash

2024-01-23, 06:10 PM

I think my earlier hypothesis that facing the dragon in this room giving an adventuring party the advantage is accurate, it seems Calder has troubles positioning himself optimally while the group has plenty of space to spread out.

Don't forget, his movements are also limited due to Sunny's eye.
The bigger you are, the harder it is to avoid.

The MunchKING

2024-01-23, 06:31 PM

At least we know they are ready to take on any Lambs they run across. :smalltongue:

How many levels would Minra advance if they defeat the dragon?

One. IIRC there's a rule you can't go up more than one level at a time. She'll wind up at 1 XP below the next level if she would go up multiple levels from a single encounter.

Yeah, I'm moving Calder into the "for-sure evil" column. Creating your own cult of people who worship you as a deity is pretty far down the not-nice path.

Eh, that depends on how you recruit and what kind of deity they think you are.

I mean yes in THIS case, mind controlling them into worshiping you as Super Ego God is pretty evil, but there could be other kinds of cults out there.

EDIT:

Interesting detail: the panel has the cultists and Calder under a pretty purple sky. I wonder if it's an indicator that the Rift that would become Kraagor's Gate was close and coloring said sky.

Oooooh, I didn't think of that. I was just thinking atmosphere. (Narrative atmosphere I mean)

He's pretty right to be confident. Take a dragon's magic away, and it's still a mother-loving dragon. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)

Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenBadMenLoveTheirMamas)!

yeah he's lacking in both INT and WIS, lol. what chapter was it when belkar was like "taking the biggest dump since elan did his intelligence stat"?

You are thinking of this one (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0786.html).

Qwerty Shrdlu

2024-01-23, 06:38 PM

Don't forget, his movements are also limited due to Sunny's eye.
The bigger you are, the harder it is to avoid.

And Calder is still holding back, trying to defeat the party rather than just kill everybody outright. He wants to capture most of the party alive so that he can control them, and he intends to keep Serini alive for a long time while he kills her.

But a few deaths won't bother him at all.

chy03001

2024-01-23, 07:36 PM

Bluff really is an OP ability.

danielxcutter

2024-01-23, 07:50 PM

Honestly I think the Order is going to defeat or slay Calder in a straight fight for one simple reason - way too much of the last few books’ fights have been the antagonist of the week wiping the floor with them, or the Order barely managing to survive by leaving the fight entirely or something else happened to save them, sometimes one of them being clever, sometimes dumb luck, and sometimes taking a triple fiend pact that moved the plot forwards and bought the Order some time but hindered them in almost every other way. I think a straight, direct win at this point is practically necessary to make it feel like they have an actual chance of saving the world here.

137beth

2024-01-23, 08:18 PM

Ah, so the dragon is a villain who was unwillingly helping with another villain. I'm very curious to see how this resolves.

gatemansgc

2024-01-23, 08:22 PM

You are thinking of this one (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0786.html).

half an hour later i'm still rereading from that point, OOTS is just so fun to read

The MunchKING

2024-01-23, 08:26 PM

half an hour later i'm still rereading from that point, OOTS is just so fun to read

I just finished a big reread, so I knew what you were talking about immediately.

Xavien Nil

2024-01-23, 09:05 PM

Does Mind Blank not stop Telepathic Bond?

Psyren

2024-01-23, 09:22 PM

Does Mind Blank not stop Telepathic Bond?

No - despite the name, the latter is a divination, not an enchantment.

If it did, it would be a lot less useful among high-level adventuring parties, who are exactly the sorts of folks who would want such a bond in place.

OvisCaedo

2024-01-23, 10:08 PM

Mind Blank blocks mind-affecting effects, as well as Divination effects that try to gain information about the target.

gbaji

2024-01-23, 10:31 PM

The Crayons of Time strips were drawn by who, exactly? Why, Serini.

Who was perhaps crafty enough to realize that if she was going to pull the ultimate shell trick of all time, she shouldn't give it away in her diary?

As pointed out by Unoriginal. The Crayons of Time strips were based off Shojo's story of the events, as passed to him by his father, who learned about it from Soon. So we can assume that if Soon knew that Kraagor's gate was at/near the north pole, that that's more or less where it was.

She did lie about the location of Kraagor's Gate in her diary, that is a fact.

I think this is incorrect, however. As far as we know, her diary contained the correct coordinates to each and every gate (but had to be deciphered). That's how TE has been able to go directly to each gate as needed. Xykon stole her diary.

Girard lied to Soon about where his (Girard's) gate was located. Note, however, that when TE finally decided to travel to Girard's gate, they were able to transport themselves directly to it. So close, in fact, that they were caught in the explosion when Roy destroyed it. TE was using the coordinates from Serini's diary. So I think we can conclude that her diary was very accurate as to the actual location of every gate.

almost forgot about that. it would be a cool time to see the IFCC again, plus leave the order without their main magic user so that calder can rampage and destroy all the defenses so that team evil won't be stopped by them!

Maybe. But I doubt it. I suspect that the IFCC does not want either team to unambiguously "win" here. The IFCC is not on the same side as Team Evil. They are on their own side, but need both TE and the Order to arrive at the final gate and fight over it (my assumption/guess, but it matches their actions so far). If I were to further speculate, I would assume that they want them both to fight and weaken eachother, and then step in with their own forces and <do something>. What the <something> is, is still in question. But I doubt they want to deal with a fully powered TE in order to do whatever it is.

So... They want the Order to get to the gate. They want the order to defend the gate. They also want TE to arrive at the gate sometime later. This ensures that the two groups will fight. The two groups wont have a grand fight and weaken eachother if one of them gets wiped out by a dragon before hand.

My guess is the IFCC stays on the sidelines for this one. Well, unless Calder is somehow a part of their plans, that is (which I doubt, but you never know).

I also don't think the problem here is resources drained for the Order (since a couple people mentioned that). My understanding is that they've still got several days before TE gets to the Final Dungeon (Roy estimated 4 or 5, but I think that may be high). In any case, unless they are actually wiped by the dragon, they will have plenty of time to recover fully by then. The trick is defeating the dragon though.

I am curious what exact effect Calder used on Sunny though. That could be kinda critical to this combat resolution. If it's just a dominate monster spell, then one well placed dismiss on Sunny should do the trick. If it's some other strange mind power or suggestion or whatnot, it might be trickier. But yeah, if the dominate/whatever can be dismissed, then Sunny closes his big eye, and Calder goes back to being trapped inside the circle. Of course, if he actually moves outside the circle (which we haven't been shown yet, but would be a logical and obvious move for him to make), then they'll have to beat him and drive him back into it somehow (or kill him, I suppose). Is there some specific reason he wouldn't want to pass through the area of Sunny's eye beam? Someone earlier mentioned him not wanting to do this for some reason, but other than it affecting his ability to cast magic while inside the beam itself, I can't think of any specific reason he wouldn't just fly/run/whatever through it and outside the circle first thing. Then, he can use Sunny in other ways, and if his control on Sunny is dispelled, he's not trapped again.

Could very well be I'm missing something though.

Also, how tough is a dragon anyway? The Order is pretty high level these days. My understanding is that Roy and Durkon are the lowest level at this point, but most of them are level 17. Roy should be 16 (possibly 17?), since he had to have gained at least one level since being resurrected to use the spellsplinter maneuver. Durkon is trickier, since he lost two levels from dying (but may have gained a boatload of experience for defeating Darkon from within, but I have no clue how experience may work when you are technically dead). But in any case, they're likely all between 15 and 17, with most at 17. A party of that level should have no trouble defeating most dragons. Heck even ancient dragons should be beatable, doubly so when encountered more or less completely on their own (and in an enclosed environment, which is practically ideal for fighting dragons). And I tend to agree that he's probably old, but not ancient. I'm sure Calder has some tricks up his methaphorical sleeves though, so who knows?

Let me also just say that I really love Roy taking the lead and giving commands, and his party actually following them! It's like they're all growed up! :smallsmile:

Lumix19

2024-01-23, 10:46 PM

He did not cast Dominate Monster, only Dominate Person. And Serini said he has levels in Mindbender, which allows for a nonverbal Suggestion, and is probably what Calder used on Sunny. There is no evidence that Calder is above Ancient, or even above Very Old.

I thought Serini was being figurative and did not realize he was an actual Mindbender (as in the class) but that makes a ton of sense. Explains the telepathy at the very least.

The MunchKING

2024-01-23, 10:48 PM

I also don't think the problem here is resources drained for the Order (since a couple people mentioned that). My understanding is that they've still got several days before TE gets to the Final Dungeon (Roy estimated 4 or 5, but I think that may be high).

The law guy thinks 2 days (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1266.html). Roy knows more about the dungeon at that point, but the law guy knows more about their own powers and how efficiently they can map dungeons.

So my best guess is split the difference. No more than 3.

Unoriginal

2024-01-23, 10:55 PM

I think this is incorrect, however. As far as we know, her diary contained the correct coordinates to each and every gate (but had to be deciphered). That's how TE has been able to go directly to each gate as needed. Xykon stole her diary.

Girard lied to Soon about where his (Girard's) gate was located. Note, however, that when TE finally decided to travel to Girard's gate, they were able to transport themselves directly to it. So close, in fact, that they were caught in the explosion when Roy destroyed it. TE was using the coordinates from Serini's diary. So I think we can conclude that her diary was very accurate as to the actual location of every gate.

The diary contains the coordinates of the cliff where the many, many doors are. But as Serini herself says, that part isn't actually the Final Dungeon, and the Final Dungeon is where Kraagor's Gate is (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1258.html).

If Serini had noted the actual coordinates in the diary as she did for Girard's Gate, then Xykon and Co wouldn't be doing the "we need to check every doors" challenge right now, they'd have popped in as close to the Final Dungeon's Gate room as possible.

Sonofsol

2024-01-23, 11:17 PM

To the team hypothesizing that the purple glow indicates a rift being nearby: I’m onboard with this idea. IIRC, O-Chul (or maybe Hinjo) says “From the largest rift in the Redmountain Hills to the smallest in the skies above Azure City, which was contained in a single gemstone.”

Going even further out on that limb, I’m inferring “from Redmountain to Azure City” to also mean a temporal order of accomplishment. I think they sealed Lirian’s as the first rift found, then found Calder at Redmountain (Red-like-the-resident-dragon-mountain?!) under the then-largest rift, lost Kraggy-boy at the penultimate stop, and finished with the hard-to-see Azure City hole.

That does leave the question, “what happened between defeating Calder and imprisoning him at the pole?”

Psyren

2024-01-23, 11:57 PM

Mind Blank blocks mind-affecting effects, as well as Divination effects that try to gain information about the target.

Right - and Telepathic Bond is neither of these.

I think this is incorrect, however. As far as we know, her diary contained the correct coordinates to each and every gate (but had to be deciphered). That's how TE has been able to go directly to each gate as needed. Xykon stole her diary.

Girard lied to Soon about where his (Girard's) gate was located. Note, however, that when TE finally decided to travel to Girard's gate, they were able to transport themselves directly to it. So close, in fact, that they were caught in the explosion when Roy destroyed it. TE was using the coordinates from Serini's diary. So I think we can conclude that her diary was very accurate as to the actual location of every gate.

Indeed - and she wrote that diary back when she was a happy-go-lucky idealist (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1285.html), i.e. before Xykon disfigured her and murdered her friends, and before she became a paranoid OpSec specialist. By the time she would have come around to the idea of falsifying or destroying the diary it was in Xykon's possession, which is how Xykon located Dorukan's dungeon. So the contents are (unfortunately) accurate.

Enero Irontoad

2024-01-24, 12:19 AM

Bluff, bluff, bluff, bluff the stupid dragon!

BriarHobbit

2024-01-24, 12:38 AM

The Order is rallying nicely. I am interested to see what V does.

Rollin

2024-01-24, 12:49 AM

danielxcutter

2024-01-24, 01:32 AM

arimareiji

2024-01-24, 01:33 AM

yeah he's lacking in both INT and WIS, lol. what chapter was it when belkar was like "taking the biggest dump since elan did his intelligence stat"?

Found it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0786.html), first panel even. Thanks, I'd forgotten that one. (^_~)

And here's Elan doing a stint as an Oracle (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1091.html), predicting my present bemusement that he's so vulnerable to domination despite having had Mind Blank as an innate ability since he was in diapers. (First panel of third row.)

danielxcutter

2024-01-24, 01:39 AM

To be fair, Elan probably doesn't have like, a 3 in both or something. It's worth remembering that a lot of him being goofy is what kind of person he is rather than mental capacity (or the lack of it).

Mic_128

2024-01-24, 01:47 AM

Maybe. But I doubt it. I suspect that the IFCC does not want either team to unambiguously "win" here. The IFCC is not on the same side as Team Evil. They are on their own side, but need both TE and the Order to arrive at the final gate and fight over it (my assumption/guess, but it matches their actions so far).

Oh, definitely. Heck, even Serini seemed to unintentionally back that up.

"It's the conflict that leads to the gates being destroyed. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1254.html)"

If I were to further speculate, I would assume that they want them both to fight and weaken eachother, and then step in with their own forces and <do something>. What the <something> is, is still in question. But I doubt they want to deal with a fully powered TE in order to do whatever it is.

I think they want the gates destroyed. They were originally planning on Hel winning the vote after all. What their actual plan is for *after* that...

My guess is the IFCC stays on the sidelines for this one. Well, unless Calder is somehow a part of their plans, that is (which I doubt, but you never know).

I agree. They want to keep their trump card usage of V in reserve for the actual fight that matters.

OvisCaedo

2024-01-24, 02:05 AM

We don't know for sure that the Final Dungeon is somewhere different than what was claimed. It could just be buried deep inside this cliff face or underground, but without any actual pathway leading to it besides teleportation. I think that's most likely, myself. The coordinates in Serini's diary weren't so much false as indicating the area the entrance was in, or just not specific pinpointy enough to allow teleporting right to it.

The gates can't be moved, but the surrounding area could be massively terraformed.

Psychronia

2024-01-24, 02:10 AM

Not that it was particularly a mystery, but I guess that means we can solidly put Calder in the Evil category. I do like the ironic fate of Sereni forcing him to work for her after he forced a bunch of cultists to work for him. Bonus points if his cult members were somehow acceptably evil targets.

Honestly, it's probably the best way to put this totally evil and dangerous dragon the Scribble had to good use. He's a problem that you throw at another problem so that you only have to worry about one by the end of things. Though I'm not sure what she would've done if Calder successfully dominated whoever came in and triggered his trap. It wouldn't work on Xykon, of course, but surely there are other evildoers who might be vulnerable to mental effects?

I feel like it should be an established hard rule for Elan to not correct party members in front of bad guys, even if they're wrong about something. I guess he might have trouble remembering that kind of rule, but for the record: are there any times through the course of this story where that sort of rule would have screwed the Order over?

Somniloquist

2024-01-24, 03:38 AM

This is why I could never be a rogue - I would never be able to shake the urge to explain that my bluffs are, in fact, not the truth.

danielxcutter

2024-01-24, 04:27 AM

Honestly, I still have moral scruples against enslaving mortals with free will like that, especially if Calder's been awake for all or most of the time spent captured. But I think the practical arguments against using a red dragon of significant age as an unwilling miniboss encounter are strong enough for them to not be necessary in the first place.

Like seriously, even pretty young dragons are quite smart and have buttloads of skill points. That, combined with significant magical and physical power... I think that it would have been better all around to just have killed them and be over with it. That'd have been safer and arguably more humane.

ratfox

2024-01-24, 04:38 AM

Ruck

2024-01-24, 04:46 AM

I'm wondering: How good would have Calder held against team evil?

I'm kinda curious myself-- admittedly, as much as anything for their initial interaction, from the viewpoint that Xykon has never been "sufficiently servile" for a minute of his life.

Mic_128

2024-01-24, 04:47 AM

danielxcutter

2024-01-24, 04:51 AM

Not very well, sadly. Xykon has a high AC due to having Epic Mage Armor (+20 armor bonus to AC) and has DR 15/magic and bludgeoning, which cuts down on Calder's physical damage a lot, and he's also got an item that makes him immune to fire so the breath weapon's also useless. And of course, the mind-affecting abilities are worthless against him because undead are immune to most of those by default.

As for the other side of the equation - Calder's spell resistance might help him stay alive for a bit longer, but dragons don't have particularly high spell resistance for their CR without a non-core feat. Most true dragons can select cleric spells for their sorcerer casting, so Calder might have Death Ward, but even if he does have it up and running before Xykon blasts them with a Maximized Energy Drain, dragons also don't have very high effective sorcerer levels for their CR either, so Redcloak has a good chance of taking it out with Greater Dispel Magic. The fire immunity of red dragons means that Xykon can't just spam metamagic'd Fireballs and Meteor Swarms either, but Xykon has electricity spells as well.

I think it's possible that if Calder ended up fighting Team Evil, that'd still force them to rest and recover their resources before continuing. But I don't have much higher expectations than that even if O-Chul literally gave him Xykon's spell list.

Kardwill

2024-01-24, 06:03 AM

I think it's possible that if Calder ended up fighting Team Evil, that'd still force them to rest and recover their resources before continuing. But I don't have much higher expectations than that even if O-Chul literally gave him Xykon's spell list.

I think that was the plan from the beginning : Any villain strong enough to run Serini's gauntlet would probably be strong enough to kill Calder. The intruders dying in the dungeons would be ideal, but really, everything in the dungeon is just there to make them waste their ressources (spell slots, HP, minions...) and their time so that an epic level adventurer party (i.e. Serini and her friends) can be assembled to finish the job.

That's one of the reasons she's desperate enough to be willing to let Xykon win : The death of the other scribblers crippled her entire defense system, and she knows she can't stop him.

danielxcutter

2024-01-24, 06:18 AM

I mean that too, yes, but also that Xykon has a hilariously long list of resistances and immunities. An equivalent-CR version of say, Redcloak, would significantly less obnoxious in that regard. On the other hand, Xykon's much less flexible than an epic-level cleric, druid, or wizard, which is why O-Chul getting most of his spell list is such a great achievement - it means they know exactly what to do in order to counteract his spells known to the best of their capabilities. The problem with that is that dragons, like Calder, have innate sorcerer casting, and much weaker than Xykon's as a matter of fact. So it wouldn't help Calder all that much even if he did have the list.

The Order though not only have both a wizard and a cleric, but also the entire Order's been devoting at least part of their builds for the explicit purpose of handling Team Evil. Xykon saying "power equals power" isn't wrong, but not all power is equally applicable in all situations. Calder's power is much less effective against Xykon, specifically, but that's because Xykon has exactly the right abilities to shut Calder's primary capabilities down. And the Order has a lot of the right abilities to shut down his primary capabilities.

Clertar

2024-01-24, 06:32 AM

Calder will make a pretty nice new zombie dragon for Xykon.

brian 333

2024-01-24, 06:37 AM

Provengreil

2024-01-24, 06:48 AM

What would stop Calder from joining Team Evil rather than fighting them?

Recognition of TE's power, being subdued by them, or taking the opportunity to be freed and gaining powerful allies in his quest for revenge vs. Serini are all good reasons why he would.

Sure, he would try to be boss first, but a round or two would be all it takes to realize that the role of (temporary) partner is superior to slave or corpse.

That would never happen. Xykon and Calder both care way too much about being the top dog for them ever to work together. Xykon wouldn't accept partnership and Calder, who might accept it, would never accept slave. So, to death they would fight, or someone runs first.

Beni-Kujaku

2024-01-24, 07:24 AM

I mean that too, yes, but also that Xykon has a hilariously long list of resistances and immunities.

As a reminder :
Immunities to mind-affecting, polymorph and death effects, poison and all non object-affecting effects requiring a Fort save.
Immunity to fire, cold, electricity and positive energy.
At least 20 armor+5 natural armor+ unspecified amount of deflection bonus to AC
DR 15/Bludgeoning and Magic+DR 10/Adamantine from Stoneskin,
Turn Resistance +4 (so effectively Turn Immunity in this world)
Immunity to grappling and movement impeding from Boots of Freedom of Movement.

Additionally, Xykon has a Contingency spell (probably either Greater Teleport or Greater Invisibility) if things go south.
And if Redcloak had time to buff him beforehand : Acid Resistance 30, +11 to all saves (5 Conviction, 6 Superior Resistance), and possibly True Seeing, Spell Resistance ~30 and immunity to ~18 specific spells, if Redcloak has spells to spare that day.

That's one hard to crack nut, for sure.

b_jonas

2024-01-24, 07:31 AM

Peelee

2024-01-24, 07:32 AM

I'm wondering: How good would have Calder held against team evil? I'm not sure how efficient the Quinton's force cages would be against him.
We may still see this happen, of course. Maybe the only thing that is needed is to wake Sunny up, and get him to close his eye.

Xykon and Redcloak were slapped down hard by an ancient Silver Dragon while being pretty fresh for the fight, so assuming no more Quinton, probably fairly well. Especially if Calder has some good spell resistance.

Kardwill

2024-01-24, 07:37 AM

Immunity to fire, cold, electricity and positive energy.

Isn't X's fire resistance tied to a magic item? (which may or may not still exist after the first corridor ambush)

BloodSquirrel

2024-01-24, 07:38 AM

That would never happen. Xykon and Calder both care way too much about being the top dog for them ever to work together. Xykon wouldn't accept partnership and Calder, who might accept it, would never accept slave. So, to death they would fight, or someone runs first.

This might be assuming too much. Calder is (almost certainly) not stupid, and there are degrees between "partner" and "slave" that Xykon is more than willing to accept. He was quite willing to let Redcloak think he was more of a junior partner until Redcloak started getting uppity. And their team-up doesn't need to permanent enough for that to be an issue anyway.

Which makes the real question what they're teaming up to do. Xykon isn't just going to give up on getting the gate- he's not as attached to THE PLAN as Redcloak is, but it's still a much better scheme than anything Calder can offer. Calder's dragon cult could potentially benefit from the plan, however, opening the way for a quick deal- you help us, we get your cult recognized officially by the gods. Or he could tag along with them explicitly for the purposes of finding and killing Serini.

The fundamental problem here (from the perspective of using him as a guardian) is that there are just too damn many unknowns about how an encounter between him and anybody who runs into him will go. If he's dangerous enough to potentially stop someone who is coming after the gate, he's dangerous enough to be just as big a danger to the gate. Having this big of a wildcard in the heart of your defenses is... just not very smart.

Kardwill

2024-01-24, 07:41 AM

Calder will make a pretty nice new zombie dragon for Xykon.

A zombie of that size is far less dangerous than a real dragon, though. It's just a big, lumbering pile of HP.

Provengreil

2024-01-24, 07:47 AM

This might be assuming too much. Calder is (almost certainly) not stupid, and there are degrees between "partner" and "slave" that Xykon is more than willing to accept. He was quite willing to let Redcloak think he was more of a junior partner until Redcloak started getting uppity. And their team-up doesn't need to permanent enough for that to be an issue anyway.

Which makes the real question what they're teaming up to do. Xykon isn't just going to give up on getting the gate- he's not as attached to THE PLAN as Redcloak is, but it's still a much better scheme than anything Calder can offer. Calder's dragon cult could potentially benefit from the plan, however, opening the way for a quick deal- you help us, we get your cult recognized officially by the gods. Or he could tag along with them explicitly for the purposes of finding and killing Serini.

I suppose we just have different reads of the characters. Calder's only been around for a couple strips, so maybe we'll get more insight later.

The fundamental problem here (from the perspective of using him as a guardian) is that there are just too damn many unknowns about how an encounter between him and anybody who runs into him will go. If he's dangerous enough to potentially stop someone who is coming after the gate, he's dangerous enough to be just as big a danger to the gate. Having this big of a wildcard in the heart of your defenses is... just not very smart.

Full agree on this part. The defense plan of stasis'd monsters is pretty ropey unless the monsters are, well, monsters about it and attack anyone and anything on sight. Anything with the intelligence and perception to turn against its captor could predictably add to the invading force. Sprinkle someone with actual agendas on top of that and it's almost a sure thing, barring intense personality clashes.

Sounds like Serini should probably have invested in golems instead.

Kardwill

2024-01-24, 07:49 AM

The fundamental problem here (from the perspective of using him as a guardian) is that there are just too damn many unknowns about how an encounter between him and anybody who runs into him will go.

Biggest unknown for me : What was the release condition (if there was one)? The entire party rushed into his room, and Sunny crossed the bridge, and yet the circle is still there.
What was supposed to happen? Release a scheming and vindicative Calder in the middle of Serini's defenses? Or something else? Was there some kind of failsafe?

Provengreil

2024-01-24, 07:59 AM

Biggest unknown for me : What was the release condition (if there was one)? The entire party rushed into his room, and Sunny crossed the bridge, and yet the circle is still there.
What was supposed to happen? Release a scheming and vindicative Calder in the middle of Serini's defenses? Or something else? Was there some kind of failsafe?

Interesting angle you've thought of. Maybe their down/up pattern skipped a tile that was actually trapped and Sunny didn't trigger it because they float? Or maybe Calder's trap is supposed to double as a prison, and never let him actually leave: as he's demonstrated, he can cause problems even while heavily restrained.

KorvinStarmast

2024-01-24, 08:03 AM

To judge from panel 4, Calder still had both horns when Serini's party met him. I haven't seen the calendar image showing them subduing him, but I gather it already shows his right horn broken off. Do we think he lost it in that fight, or before? Per the 2015 calendar picture, Kraagor is chopping off that horn with his ax during that battle.

That would never happen. Xykon and Calder both care way too much about being the top dog for them ever to work together. Xykon wouldn't accept partnership and Calder, who might accept it, would never accept slave. So, to death they would fight, or someone runs first. Calder's ability to fly suggests to me that if things with Xykon get contentious, should they meet, he flies off and begins organizing another cult somewhere else.

Zakaarus

2024-01-24, 08:08 AM

I specifically fill a niche related to dragons and mind control.. what a coincidence goddamn

Unoriginal

2024-01-24, 08:18 AM

What would stop Calder from joining Team Evil rather than fighting them?

His draconic pride and hair-trigger murder response.

Recognition of TE's power, being subdued by them, or taking the opportunity to be freed and gaining powerful allies in his quest for revenge vs. Serini are all good reasons why he would.

Sure, he would try to be boss first, but a round or two would be all it takes to realize that the role of (temporary) partner is superior to slave or corpse.

The question then becomes: would Team Evil let him choose the option that isn't "slave or corpse"?

Most likely: Xykon wouldn't, Oona wouldn't, and at best Redcloack might pontificate for a bit about why goblins are ethically superior, until remembering that Calder would betray them as soon as a safe-looking occasion presents itself, and he can't afford another wild card in his carefully stacked deck. And nobody would listen to what the Monster in the Darkness would have to say unless he can pull another fast one, which I doubt he'd do for a person he doesn't know and who attacked first.

brian 333

2024-01-24, 08:25 AM

And yet, Calder specifically accepted subdual by a more powerful foe at least once.

drazen

2024-01-24, 08:26 AM

The Order is clearly buffed by various kinds of magic, and Calder the dragon knows this. Do you suppose Calder will ask Sunny to cancel the magic with his eyebeam, or use a Dispel Magic spell herself? If so, that might turn Bloodfeast the Extremeinator back to huge dinosaur form.

A bit concerning is that we saw Belkar evade the fire breath, but I didn't see Bloodfeast or Mr Scruffy anywhere in the panel. Hopefully they're ok. Maybe they're hanging back? Or do they get an "evasion" too if Belkar succeeds and they're close enough to him?

Errorname

2024-01-24, 08:48 AM

And yet, Calder specifically accepted subdual by a more powerful foe at least once.

I'm uh, not certain how much of that was willingly accepted on his part, he seems quite pissed about the whole affair

The MunchKING

2024-01-24, 08:50 AM

Provengreil

2024-01-24, 08:50 AM

And yet, Calder specifically accepted subdual by a more powerful foe at least once.

I can't see Team Evil moving for anything but a straight kill if they met. Team Evil has enough tension building that they don't want another powerful wildcard asserting dominance, which subdual would bring without question: subduing a dragon this strong is a heck of a tiger to ride. Thus, without subdual, Calder's options are win, run, or die, and as already covered his chances against Xykon alone are alarmingly low, even worse with the rest thrown in.

Tzardok

2024-01-24, 09:02 AM

I know Familiars get Evasion, I'm not sure about Animal Companions.

Animal Companions and Special Mounts get Evasion, Familars get Improved Evasion.

ShurikVch

2024-01-24, 09:04 AM

Anybody noticed arrows on the foreheads of the Cult's people?

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/4e8eafe7-1217-479b-b3de-9879d1ec4ada/d8rg1ma-ec7b175d-addb-4389-ab46-f879587db385.jpg/v1/fit/w_300,h_612,q_70,strp/avatar_x__the_last_mindbender_by_shoppity_d8rg1ma-300w.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ 9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYw ZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OT gyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7Imhl aWdodCI6Ijw9NjEyIiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvNGU4ZWFmZTctMT IxNy00NzliLWIzZGUtOTg3OWQxZWM0YWRhXC9kOHJnMW1hLWVj N2IxNzVkLWFkZGItNDM4OS1hYjQ2LWY4Nzk1ODdkYjM4NS5qcG ciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9NjE0In1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2 aWNlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0.tWyBkZDNu0kAMwztA_ iU4P0HHUsVvwKF5poJTcYaMVg

Unoriginal

2024-01-24, 09:06 AM

And yet, Calder specifically accepted subdual by a more powerful foe at least once.

Team Evil isn't the Order of the Scribble. That a group of heroes (however flawed) let Calder live is not an indicator a group of villains (and their two non-evil you-don't-have-a-say-in-what-we-do associates) would extend the same generosity.

Furthermore, even if the dragon "accepted subdual" then, he is outspoken about how right now he wishes to horrifically torture and kill the 1/6th of the group that sudued him. So it's not like he would be loyal to TE forever if they beat him.

I'm sure Calder is smart and wise enough to not fight to the death if he has the choice. I don't think he is charismatic enough to sell the "you beat me, we can work together" trope to the experienced villains of Team Evil after attacking them, when they're so close to getting the Gate already

urbanwolf

2024-01-24, 10:04 AM

Lord Torath

2024-01-24, 10:15 AM

Anybody noticed arrows on the foreheads of the Cult's people?I don't think those are arrows. I think those are the heads of red dragon tattoos. See the dragon wings to the sides?

Gift Jeraff

2024-01-24, 10:29 AM

I wonder if Calder makes his cultists shave their head or if he takes a preference to bald people, seeing them as less disgustingly mammalian or something like that.

To judge from panel 4, Calder still had both horns when Serini's party met him. I haven't seen the calendar image showing them subduing him, but I gather it already shows his right horn broken off. Do we think he lost it in that fight, or before?

The calendar image shows it was chopped off in that fight, likely by Kraagor's axe.

ShurikVch

2024-01-24, 10:36 AM

I don't think those are arrows. I think those are the heads of red dragon tattoos. See the dragon wings to the sides?
While true
1. It's still look like arrows
2. The last of the tattoo is visible only on those who're without hoods (i. e. 2nd-4th in the line). Even the one-eyed cultist, despite lacking a hood, still don't allow to see it clearly (Also, he got the ᛋ scar on his forehead; "Yer a cultist, Harry"? :smallamused:)

Tubercular Ox

2024-01-24, 10:40 AM

If I were to further speculate, I would assume that they want them both to fight and weaken eachother, and then step in with their own forces and <do something>. What the <something> is, is still in question. But I doubt they want to deal with a fully powered TE in order to do whatever it is.

So... They want the Order to get to the gate. They want the order to defend the gate. They also want TE to arrive at the gate sometime later. This ensures that the two groups will fight. The two groups wont have a grand fight and weaken eachother if one of them gets wiped out by a dragon before hand.

My guess is the IFCC stays on the sidelines for this one. Well, unless Calder is somehow a part of their plans, that is (which I doubt, but you never know).

Given that the IFCC has two time-outs left with V, do you think both of those timeouts will be used in the same encounter? If the struggle over the gate is your first choice, what is your second choice for when to use a timeout? Feel free to be vague and theoretical.

Xykon and Redcloak were slapped down hard by an ancient Silver Dragon while being pretty fresh for the fight, so assuming no more Quinton, probably fairly well. Especially if Calder has some good spell resistance.

What if the Monster in the Dark weren't separated from Team Evil before the encounter?

Unoriginal

2024-01-24, 10:41 AM

It is hard to tell the difference between mental stats. I see what Elen is saying to Biggest Red being tied to his intelligence not wisdom. Elen; to me, seems to have an okay wisdom. The opposite of his brother. Nale had goodish intelligence but bad wisdom. I figured as twins they had the same stats at level 1 with the exception of flipping intelligence and wisdom.
Elen with an 8 or 9int and 12 or 13 wisdom and Nale 12 or 13 int and 8 or 9 wisdom.

Elan has shown great intelligence and wisdom on specific subjects, and abysmal intelligence and wisdom on quite a lot more.

While Nale considers himself the smarter twin due to his ego, he has demonstrated the same kind of "great on some subjects, abysmal on others" capacities, so it is hard to say if his ego was correct on this point or not.

It's important to note that there was considered an incompetent buffoon by most, while Elan is not only described as a bardic genius by other bards, Thor himself makes reference to his narrative knowledge.

Provengreil

2024-01-24, 11:08 AM

Elan has shown great intelligence and wisdom on specific subjects, and abysmal intelligence and wisdom on quite a lot more.

While Nale considers himself the smarter twin due to his ego, he has demonstrated the same kind of "great on some subjects, abysmal on others" capacities, so it is hard to say if his ego was correct on this point or not.

It's important to note that there was considered an incompetent buffoon by most, while Elan is not only described as a bardic genius by other bards, Thor himself makes reference to his narrative knowledge.

Wouldn't those be connected to bardic lore and therefore mostly related to his character level? I'm asking, I don't quite remember how it works.

Kardwill

2024-01-24, 11:23 AM

A bit concerning is that we saw Belkar evade the fire breath, but I didn't see Bloodfeast or Mr Scruffy anywhere in the panel. Hopefully they're ok. Maybe they're hanging back? Or do they get an "evasion" too if Belkar succeeds and they're close enough to him?

They might get the old "The GM probably won't kill your familiar/pet/pony/plucky little sister sidekick unless you deliberately throw them in harm's way" evasion skill ^^

Mordar

2024-01-24, 11:43 AM

Considering the Scribblers had a high level paladin, a high level barbarian, and three high-level casters, I think it's very likely that Calder lost a horn in that fight, yes. Although if I had to bet which one of them specifically was responsible I'd put my money on Soon or Kraagor, since they can hit like a truck. Even more than the spellcasters, as a matter of fact; while the effectiveness of direct damage spells is somewhat understated in the 3.5e optimization community, martials still outdamage them decisively in terms of damage-per-single-opponent. Especially since Soon has Smite Evil and Kraagor would probably be able to have like, Strength 26+.

I wondered...would the Scribble be working under AD&D given the time between their adventures and the rise of OotS? What a different fight that would be!

Honestly, I still have moral scruples against enslaving mortals with free will like that, especially if Calder's been awake for all or most of the time spent captured. But I think the practical arguments against using a red dragon of significant age as an unwilling miniboss encounter are strong enough for them to not be necessary in the first place.

Enslaved or imprisoned? Or are they the same in your opinion?

Anybody noticed arrows on the foreheads of the Cult's people?

I totally thought they were meant to be dragon claws/talons on their heads to represent that they are bound to/controlled by the marking dragon...pawns, if you will. Looking back, I am compelled to agree they are dragon motifs. Still conveys, but I would prefer claws over whole-dragon silhouette.

- M

gbaji

2024-01-24, 11:48 AM

The diary contains the coordinates of the cliff where the many, many doors are. But as Serini herself says, that part isn't actually the Final Dungeon, and the Final Dungeon is where Kraagor's Gate is (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1258.html).

If Serini had noted the actual coordinates in the diary as she did for Girard's Gate, then Xykon and Co wouldn't be doing the "we need to check every doors" challenge right now, they'd have popped in as close to the Final Dungeon's Gate room as possible.

Ok. I think we're using the term "coordinates" in different ways. The coordinates were accurate in that they will get anyone using them directly to the "front door"/entrance to where the gate is. I'm not sure how much more accurate one needs to be. Also thinking you are assuming a coordinate system with far more granularity than is likely to be in effect here.

If she had actively lied about the location of the gates in her diary, then TE would have teleported into a random spot in the desert instead of within the blast radius of Girard's gate, and would then have teleported to a random spot in the icy noth, instead of right to the (very obvious) entrance(s) to the dungeon they were looking for.

Given that the IFCC has two time-outs left with V, do you think both of those timeouts will be used in the same encounter? If the struggle over the gate is your first choice, what is your second choice for when to use a timeout? Feel free to be vague and theoretical.

They only have one left that has a sufficiently long duration to really impact something major. What they do with the final (about two minute) one is up to them.

It's less a matter of "we have two, so why not use one now?" as "this isn't something they want the Order to lose, so why on earth try to make that happen?". Even a minor resource still has value, so why waste it on something completely useless? I can't guess what might happen, and neither can the IFCC, so I'd assume they'd keep the last one for a "WTF" condition (something unexpected comes up, where pulling V out for a couple minutes might help them).

That is *not* this fight (again, barring some other plan they have involving Calder, which I doubt).

elros

2024-01-24, 11:50 AM

Kardwill

2024-01-24, 11:57 AM

This is a tough battle for Calder, because it is a "kill box" and he loses out to action economy. I am not sure if the OOTS will find a way to subdue Calder, but I do not see it joining the OOTS to stop Xykon and team Evil. So the question is how many spells and other resources will OOTS use up?

Ideally, this will not be a problem : Team Evil should be dungeon crawling for 2 days before they get to this one. Roy's plan was to rest at the gate, so that they will be "fresh" when fighting X and RC. That's the reason they left immediately after dinner.

Of course, that was the plan.
That just blew up in their face.

Unoriginal

2024-01-24, 12:12 PM

Ok. I think we're using the term "coordinates" in different ways. The coordinates were accurate in that they will get anyone using them directly to the "front door"/entrance to where the gate is. I'm not sure how much more accurate one needs to be. Also thinking you are assuming a coordinate system with far more granularity than is likely to be in effect here.

Except Serini literally says that Kraagor's Gate isn't here.

The coordinates in the diary lead to a different place, aka the big puzzle-gauntlet of mini-dungeons.

It's not inaccuracy, it's deception.

I agree that it is a necessary step that will eventually allow someone to find the portal to the Final Dungeon if they do the correct things. But that's not the same as stating where the Final Dungeon or the Gate is.

If she had actively lied about the location of the gates in her diary, then TE would have teleported into a random spot in the desert instead of within the blast radius of Girard's gate, and would then have teleported to a random spot in the icy noth, instead of right to the (very obvious) entrance(s) to the dungeon they were looking for.

She did not lie about the locations of Lirian's, Dorukan's, Soon's or Girard's Gates.

If anything, Serini wrote the truth about where Kraagor's Tomb is, but Kraagor's Tomb and Kraagor's Gate aren't at the same place.

Ideally, this will not be a problem : Team Evil should be dungeon crawling for 2 days before they get to this one. Roy's plan was to rest at the gate, so that they will be "fresh" when fighting X and RC. That's the reason they left immediately after dinner.

Of course, that was the plan.
That just blew up in their face.

I wouldn't say it blew up in their face yet, it's just harder to reach the Gate than they hoped (but still less than they feared).

Tzardok

2024-01-24, 12:14 PM

Wouldn't those be connected to bardic lore and therefore mostly related to his character level? I'm asking, I don't quite remember how it works.

Bardic Lore is more about remembering random trivia, at least by RAW. I don't think it includes literature analysis/trope awareness.

I wondered...would the Scribble be working under AD&D given the time between their adventures and the rise of OotS? What a different fight that would be!

- M

Unlikely. The Scribble have classes and class-race combinations that weren't legal in AD&D. Also, IIRC the gods reference 3.x rules in the scribbled flashbacks. Therefore it stands to reason that the world has always worked by 3.x rules, unless a joke requires that it didn't.

Beni-Kujaku

2024-01-24, 12:24 PM

bunsen_h

2024-01-24, 12:56 PM

Calder's cult would fit in great with the hypothesized Wilderness Location at the North Pole that the Scribbles could have theoretically delved in their campaign. Not that there aren't any number of other theories that are plausible from the same evidence.

It seems unlikely to me that a red dragon, who's innately connected to fire and has penalties from cold, would choose to live at the north pole.

The only real worry I can see is what Sunny might do.

Would Calder's attack on Serini give Sunny another shot at a saving throw? Granted, vampire-Durkon using Kudzu as a shield (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1126.html) didn't get Hilgya out of her Domination.

Minor error (probably) in panel 5: "I think we ALL could ALL use some more healing." Don't need all twice.

Make it "we-all could all use. :smallbiggrin:

My take is that Calder was the litteral first monster to be trapped here (being defeated way before the Scribbles disbanded, and possibly being sealed on the spot), and thus that his prison was more rudimentary, only paralyzing him rather than a full stasis. And everytime they tried to tighten the cuffs, he took control of people and was only barely restrained again, hence the fight marks in the room.

Calder's comments on the previous page indicate that he was unsure of how much time had passed, so he appears to have been in stasis for at least part of it.

One. IIRC there's a rule you can't go up more than one level at a time. She'll wind up at 1 XP below the next level if she would go up multiple levels from a single encounter.

All she has to do then is some good emoting / role-playing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html) to get that one point. :smallbiggrin: She's dropped a few hints along the way about having unresolved issues (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1180.html).

Found it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0786.html), first panel even. Thanks, I'd forgotten that one. (^_~)

When I'm trying to search for a page based on a few words of dialogue, I generally go to Google and search with the words and "site:oots.fandom.com" because all of the regular pages are transcribed there.

He's a problem that you throw at another problem so that you only have to worry about one by the end of things.

"'The victor would emerge stronger than either, and free from doubt,' said Gandalf."

Even the one-eyed cultist, despite lacking a hood, still don't allow to see it clearly (Also, he got the ᛋ scar on his forehead; "Yer a cultist, Harry"? :smallamused:)

Not exactly on his forehead; its lower end can be seen below the white cloth. It's presumably the same cut that took his eye.

I totally thought they were meant to be dragon claws/talons on their heads to represent that they are bound to/controlled by the marking dragon...pawns, if you will. Looking back, I am compelled to agree they are dragon motifs. Still conveys, but I would prefer claws over whole-dragon silhouette.

It might symbolize that the person's mind is under the shadow of the dragon.

Peelee

2024-01-24, 02:12 PM

Many people are talking about the February entry of the 2015 calendar featuring Calder. Since the calendar itself has absolutely disappeared in the 9 year span, does anybody know where I can find the image in question?

It sometimes re-appears for sale as a digital item on the store in December.

AstralFire

2024-01-24, 03:04 PM

This fight really makes you appreciate the art upgrade.

KorvinStarmast

2024-01-24, 04:32 PM

It sometimes re-appears for sale as a digital item on the store in December. I got the whole 'old calendar' pack digitally recently.
Enjoy all of them. :smallsmile:
Not sure if it is available now in January.

gbaji

2024-01-24, 04:47 PM

Except Serini literally says that Kraagor's Gate isn't here.

Unless I'm missing what you're quoting from, she actually says "this isn't the final dungeon" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1258.html). She's saying this specifically in response to assumptions that the final dungeon is where the party is, when they are, in fact, in "backstage".

There is no indication that the final dungeon, and the gate within, are not "here", where "here" is the "general geographical location containing the Hollow and all dungeons within.

The coordinates in the diary lead to a different place, aka the big puzzle-gauntlet of mini-dungeons.

That's not a "different place", anymore than my driveway is a "different place" than where the party I'm throwing is, when directing people to arrive at my house for said party. Certainly, if I gave directions (or coordinates even!) to my home, and those directions lead to the driveway in front of my home, no one would argue that I'd lied to the person about where my home was, or somehow was leading them to a "different place".

It's not inaccuracy, it's deception.

Huh? Sorry. I'm scratching my head over this one. She gave coordinates that lead directly to the Hollow, which contain the dungeon doors, through which one must explore in order to get to Kraagar's gate. How on earth is this "deception"?

The most you could argue is that her coordinates are "imprecise" in that they don't indicate the exact to the foot location of the room in the Final Dungeon in which the actual gate is contained. But again, the coordinates were to Kraagar's Tomb, which holds/secures the gate, not directly to the gate itself.

She did not lie about the locations of Lirian's, Dorukan's, Soon's or Girard's Gates.

Ok. And when TE arrived at Girard's Pyramid" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html), where did they appear? We have to assume they teleported in using the coordinates that Sereni provided them for "Girard's Pyramid". And... shockingly enough, they appear right outside "Girard's Pyramid". So... If this is her not lying about the locations of the other gates, and the coordinates provided sent them to the location just outside the entrance to the Pyramid, deep within which is the actual room with the actual gate, then how is doing the exact same thing with coordinates to "Kraagar's Tomb", somehow lying?

If anything, Serini wrote the truth about where Kraagor's Tomb is, but Kraagor's Tomb and Kraagor's Gate aren't at the same place.

Kraagar's Gate is in the same location as Kraagar's Tomb in the same way that Girard's Gate was in the same location as Girard's Pyramid.

You seem to be so fixated on the difference of the Tomb versus the Gate, that you've forgotten that the same difference exists for all of the other locations written in Serni's journal. There is no deception here. The journal tells you where to go to find each of the gates. How you get through the defenses around each one, is a completely separate matter.

Argok

2024-01-24, 05:28 PM

Many people are talking about the February entry of the 2015 calendar featuring Calder. Since the calendar itself has absolutely disappeared in the 9 year span, does anybody know where I can find the image in question?

https://richburlew.gumroad.com/l/calbundleall

You can buy all the old ones as digital right now from Rich's Gumroad store.

dmc91356

2024-01-24, 05:59 PM

Nice! Just bought that bundle.

Aquillion

2024-01-24, 06:09 PM

I"m going to hazard a guess that beating this dragon that took all of the Scribblers to take down last time is what will make serini respect the crew.
I mean... assuming she survives. Right now the OOTS has a lot of advantages, perhaps too many for a proper final battle. Having her die here would mean they'd have to figure out their own way to the gate.

Unoriginal

2024-01-24, 06:37 PM

Unless I'm missing what you're quoting from, she actually says "this isn't the final dungeon" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1258.html). She's saying this specifically in response to assumptions that the final dungeon is where the party is, when they are, in fact, in "backstage".

There is no indication that the final dungeon, and the gate within, are not "here", where "here" is the "general geographical location containing the Hollow and all dungeons within.

Serini literally says "here, away from Kraagor's Gate."

Huh? Sorry. I'm scratching my head over this one. She gave coordinates that lead directly to the Hollow, which contain the dungeon doors, through which one must explore in order to get to Kraagar's gate. How on earth is this "deception"?

Because Kraagor's Gate is not at the coordinate she has given.

"This is where the portal to X is" is not the same as "this is where X is".

The most you could argue is that her coordinates are "imprecise" in that they don't indicate the exact to the foot location of the room in the Final Dungeon in which the actual gate is contained. But again, the coordinates were to Kraagar's Tomb, which holds/secures the gate

It doesn't.

Kraagor's Tomb is a decoy for Kraagor's Gate.

It's not imprecise, it's deliberate obfuscation.

As Roy puts it, it is a shell game (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1277.html).

I don't see why the concept of an Epid Level Rogue, who explained setting the whole "multiple layers of deception" thing to discourage people from finding the actual McGuffin, being deceptive is generating such a debate.

Mordar

2024-01-24, 06:54 PM

Because Kraagor's Gate is not at the coordinate she has given.

"This is where the portal to X is" is not the same as "this is where X is".

Maybe the coordinates are insufficiently precise? Saying the "Gate is in Hex BB-0100" can absolutely be true, even if it is not the only thing in the hex...and that the "travel" spot for that hex is right in the middle.

The imprecision could be purposeful, or it could just be the limitation of the system to measure/report.

If one were to intentionally obfuscate, why put it so close to a viable entrance?

- M

whitehelm

2024-01-24, 07:09 PM

Serini literally says "here, away from Kraagor's Gate."

No, she literally said "out here, away from Kraagor's Gate", which indicates that the gate is "in there". She's just saying the Gate isn't in the backstage area.

brian 333

2024-01-24, 07:50 PM

OvisCaedo

2024-01-24, 08:00 PM

A "deception" that puts people right at the entrance to your mcguffin's dungeon isn't much of a deception, even if that entrance ITSELF is a sneaky puzzle. Deception would be pointing people in the wrong direction entirely. As of now we have no reason to think there is any other entrance to the Final Dungeon.

Plus, it really wouldn't make any actual sense for her to only "lie" about ONE of the gate locations in her diary, when any of them being reached by the wrong people is a big threat.

Mic_128

2024-01-24, 08:00 PM

Kraagor's Tomb is a decoy for Kraagor's Gate.

As Roy puts it, it is a shell game (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1277.html).

No, as Roy put it "If it is a shell game" which it very much isn't. Hell, the last panel of the comic you linked has Roy realising it's a gauntlet.

Rollin

2024-01-24, 08:07 PM

The calendar image shows it was chopped off in that fight, likely by Kraagor's axe.

Ah, that's pretty conclusive, then.

Alex Warlorn

2024-01-24, 08:29 PM

Unoriginal

2024-01-24, 08:44 PM

No, as Roy put it "If it is a shell game" which it very much isn't. Hell, the last panel of the comic you linked has Roy realising it's a gauntlet.

And as Haley says immediately after, it's both.

Ruck

2024-01-24, 08:48 PM

I don't think those are arrows. I think those are the heads of red dragon tattoos. See the dragon wings to the sides?

Red dragon tattoo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPB1kXlxEmo), eh?

Kish

2024-01-24, 08:53 PM

Team Evil isn't the Order of the Scribble. That a group of heroes (however flawed) let Calder live is not an indicator a group of villains (and their two non-evil you-don't-have-a-say-in-what-we-do associates) would extend the same generosity.
Two? The creature in the darkness and...?

(I'm asking Unoriginal. Dozen+ people reaching for their keyboards to tell me their guesses at what Unoriginal meant: if I wanted guesses I am capable of producing them myself, thanks.)

Unoriginal

2024-01-24, 08:59 PM

Two? The creature in the darkness and...?

The Quinton.

I know it's unlikely the Quinton will stay for the Final Dungeon (as the task that was bargained is specifically dealing with the mini-dungeons), but as it is possible I preferred including them.

AstralFire

2024-01-24, 09:19 PM

Religions are inclusive. Cults are exclusive.
Religions are about making as many connections as you can to spread the faith. Cults demand you sever as many connections as possible.
In a religion, the leader serves the cause. In a cult, the cause serves the leader.
A religion will happily provide a free copy of their religious text if able. A cult will fiercely guard their religious text from non-followers.
A religion will ask for regular donations to keep the roof from leaking (again). A cult will demand everything you own and then some.

Roy's statement therefore makes no sense.

It would have been better if Roy had said he wasn't the cultist type.

While this is an accurate appraisal of what makes a cult dangerous and concerning, I think I can safely note that very few religions (albeit most -- but not all -- of the very largest) in any real or fictional context are actually about proselytization as a big goal, and defining the two as hard opposites doesn't really make sense. Roy's joke works fine.

Emperor Time

2024-01-24, 09:43 PM

Calder will make a pretty nice new zombie dragon for Xykon.

I agree Xykon would want such a powerful undead creature under his command because he does enjoy doing stuff like that.

KorvinStarmast

2024-01-24, 10:16 PM

Religions are inclusive. Cults are exclusive.
Religions are about making as many connections as you can to spread the faith. Cults demand you sever as many connections as possible.
In a religion, the leader serves the cause. In a cult, the cause serves the leader.
A religion will happily provide a free copy of their religious text if able. A cult will fiercely guard their religious text from non-followers.
A religion will ask for regular donations to keep the roof from leaking (again). A cult will demand everything you own and then some.

Roy's statement therefore makes no sense.

It would have been better if Roy had said he wasn't the cultist type. I won't quibble with your analysis, it's a useful one for something I am doing in my campaign world, so I am stealing as much of this as I can. :smallbiggrin:

Unoriginal

2024-01-24, 10:29 PM

LadyEowyn

2024-01-24, 10:47 PM

Looks like Haley, Belkar, and Serini (rogue and rangers) all at least partially dodged the flames, V was partly out of the way, and only Roy, Minrah, Durkon and Elan (the former two of whom have fighter levels, amd Durkon seems to have high CON as well; and Minrah and Durkon previously cast Bear’s Endurance on themselves, which sounds like a CON sort of spell) took a direct hit. So it makes sense that Elan (probably low CON; did the boy put everything into CHA?) got the worst of it.

Haley’s flight and Roy’s magic returning sword are both really handy for this fight.

With Mimi on the battlefield rather than being a ladder, the group’s gone and left the paladins behind, which isn’t ideal.

I’m hoping that V will focus on freeing Sunny from the dragon’s control rather than on blasting the dragon, and given that V is looking at Sunny in the splash panel of the previous strip while everyone else is looking at the dragon, that seems reasonably likely.

Alex Warlorn

2024-01-24, 10:57 PM

LadyEowyn

2024-01-24, 11:07 PM

Only if you're a jackass who likes to sneer at other people's beliefs.

I don’t think Roy’s intending to sneer, and I agree with your distinction between cults and religion. I think Roy’s coming at it from a different direction, with his statement meaning “I’m not inclined to worship people (deities or otherwise)” which is consistent with his previously-expressed attitudes and is applicable to both religions and cults.

F.Harr

2024-01-24, 11:21 PM

Yeah, Elan, you should know this stuff!

AstralFire

2024-01-24, 11:35 PM

Only if you're a jackass who likes to sneer at other people's beliefs.

...Yeah, you're skipping over a lot to get to this point. Cult is a subset of most reasonable definitions of religion; that doesn't imply anything harmful about religion. Roy's simply making a statement that he's not inclined to belief, he is not making a statement about faith broadly. That's not consistent with his characterization or Mr. Burlew's writing generally.

I really like hamburgers. Spoiled hamburgers are a subset of hamburgers. Acknowledging this does not reasonably imply anything negative about hamburgers, not even if someone were to say, "Sorry, but I'm not into beef."

Peelee

2024-01-24, 11:43 PM

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Let's keep all religious discussion firmly rooted in fiction, please.

arimareiji

2024-01-24, 11:44 PM

While this is an accurate appraisal of what makes a cult dangerous and concerning, I think I can safely note that very few religions (albeit most -- but not all -- of the very largest) in any real or fictional context are actually about proselytization as a big goal, and defining the two as hard opposites doesn't really make sense. Roy's joke works fine.
Roy did tell us (or more accurately, the deva) previously that he's not that religious. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) But I think a critical part of the point made is getting missed: "Joke".

And as someone wittier than me coined, explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog… so I can only imagine what dissecting a joke is like. (^_^)º

AstralFire

2024-01-25, 12:04 AM

Roy did tell us (or more accurately, the deva) previously that he's not that religious. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) But I think a critical part of the point made is getting missed: "Joke".

And as someone wittier than me coined, explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog… so I can only imagine what dissecting a joke is like. (^_^)º

I will assume it involves a Masamune.

fuschiawarrior

2024-01-25, 01:42 AM

Religions are inclusive. Cults are exclusive.
Religions are about making as many connections as you can to spread the faith. Cults demand you sever as many connections as possible.
In a religion, the leader serves the cause. In a cult, the cause serves the leader.
A religion will happily provide a free copy of their religious text if able. A cult will fiercely guard their religious text from non-followers.
A religion will ask for regular donations to keep the roof from leaking (again). A cult will demand everything you own and then some.

Roy's statement therefore makes no sense.

It would have been better if Roy had said he wasn't the cultist type.

But in OotS world if enough people believe that you are a god, you become one, so a cult could turn into a legitimate if probably evil religion. I don't know if this what Calder was trying to do because I don't know if the beliefs of mind-controlled people count towards apotheosis.

Mic_128

2024-01-25, 02:07 AM

And as Haley says immediately after, it's both.

Yeah, because unlike traditional shell games, where the pea isn't under a shell and you're tricked into picking one, this time a tiny sliver is under every shell, but you're tricked into picking just one.

Tzardok

2024-01-25, 04:02 AM

The term "cult" has been used in D&D both for hidden religions of evil gods in good societies and for hidden religions of good gods in evil societies (see Eilistraee). The sole difference between a cult and a religion is size and acceptance.

Kardwill

2024-01-25, 04:23 AM

But in OotS world if enough people believe that you are a god, you become one, so a cult could turn into a legitimate if probably evil religion. I don't know if this what Calder was trying to do because I don't know if the beliefs of mind-controlled people count towards apotheosis.

And in OOTS world, religions follow many of the listed cults "qualities" : They are deliberately set up to allow the leader (the god) to cash in the soul and devotion of the believers.
Some of them are pretty exclusive too. For example, the Dark One only seeks worshippers born in the group (goblinoïds). And the others are territorial : Pantheons lay claim on a territory and its people, and defend that domain from intrusions (and probably conversions) from other pantheons.

Roy was never very religious to begin with, and he has become very bitter about the gods since the Godsmoot. Even if there's a huge difference between Calder and, say, Thor or even Hel, it makes sense Roy tends to put "big creature who wants my worship" in the same bag when making a joke mid-combat.

danielxcutter

2024-01-25, 05:17 AM

It's also worth remembering that Roy's areligiousness is more of a general sentiment rather than directed towards any specific god, and firm personal disinterest in worship rather than antipathy. The Giant's compared D&D religions to corporations or countries IIRC; "I don't want to work for X" is an entirely different opinion than "I oppose X and everything it stands for".

Unoriginal

2024-01-25, 05:51 AM

Yeah, because unlike traditional shell games, where the pea isn't under a shell and you're tricked into picking one, this time a tiny sliver is under every shell, but you're tricked into picking just one.

Indeed. I'm glad we agree.

Liquor Box

2024-01-25, 06:27 AM

I was pretty loathe to even touch the discussions that sprang up around the morality of trapping Calder in here, and I still am, but you gotta appreciate the irony of making a dragon that wants to enslave people on sight work for you.

I agree. It's ironic that the thing which establishes Calder as so unspeakably evil, is not so far removed from the thing that Serini has done to him (in both cases using magic to force others to do as they wished.

I'm wondering: How good would have Calder held against team evil? I'm not sure how efficient the Quinton's force cages would be against him.
We may still see this happen, of course. Maybe the only thing that is needed is to wake Sunny up, and get him to close his eye.

I suggest that if the extended Order are able to beat him, then odds are Team Evil would have been able to do so. From memory LIch's are immune to mind effecting spells (Calder's speciality) and would have DR against his attacks.

I recall that in the previous thread people were making estimates of Calder's age based on how big he appeared to be, and then suggesting that the Order may not all survive his breath. Now that it appears everyone did survive his breath (possibly including Serini's shapeshifting monster), I wonder if the estimate needs to be revised down. His breath weapon wasn't as powerful as people perhaps though.

I think that was the plan from the beginning : Any villain strong enough to run Serini's gauntlet would probably be strong enough to kill Calder. The intruders dying in the dungeons would be ideal, but really, everything in the dungeon is just there to make them waste their ressources (spell slots, HP, minions...) and their time so that an epic level adventurer party (i.e. Serini and her friends) can be assembled to finish the job.

That's one of the reasons she's desperate enough to be willing to let Xykon win : The death of the other scribblers crippled her entire defense system, and she knows she can't stop him.

Yep, this is it in a nutshell

Mic_128

2024-01-25, 06:31 AM

Indeed. I'm glad we agree.

Not entirely, as going back to the original point-

Kraagor's Tomb is a decoy for Kraagor's Gate.

-is that Kraagor's Tomb *is* where Kraagor's Gate is, or specifically the only way to it. It's designed to mislead, certainly, but it's not a decoy.

In a standard shell game, the only way to win is not to play. In this gauntlet-shell game, the only way to win is to play everything.

danielxcutter

2024-01-25, 06:31 AM

Honestly there's a very strong argument to make against this for practical reasons alone. This guy is strong enough to require a high-level adventurer party to defeat in combat and is smart and socially capable enough to run a dragon cult, putting him in this dungeon as a glorified miniboss encounter against his will is practically guaranteed to blow up in your face.

Unoriginal

2024-01-25, 06:36 AM

I agree. It's ironic that the thing which establishes Calder as so unspeakably evil, is not so far removed from the thing that Serini has done to him (in both cases using magic to force others to do as they wished.

It's like saying that putting serial killer Jigsaw in jail is not so far removed to what he has done, because in both cases it involves keeping someone imprisoned against their will.

The difference in who is subjected to it, how many are subjected to it and what happens afterward make those two acts far, far removed from each other.

Also, once again, there is no magic forcing Calder to do as Serini wishes. Otherwise he wouldn't be trying to kill her now.

The magic was to keep Calder imprisoned. Him attacking the intruders who freed him would have been up to his own volition.

Liquor Box

2024-01-25, 06:39 AM

danielxcutter

2024-01-25, 06:45 AM

I suspect that the Order are going to end up killing Calder and then destroying the corpse specifically because they remember that silver dragon zombie, to be honest.

Tzardok

2024-01-25, 06:57 AM

One should note that of Calder's six natural weapons (bite, two claws, two wing strikes, tail slap) only two (the claws) wouldn't overcome Xykon's DR.

Liquor Box

2024-01-25, 07:01 AM

It's like saying that putting serial killer Jigsaw in jail is not so far removed to what he has done, because in both cases it involves keeping someone imprisoned against their will.

The difference in who is subjected to it, how many are subjected to it and what happens afterward make those two acts far, far removed from each other.

So the difference is three things? Who is subjected to the magic. How many people are subjected to the magic. And what happens afterward. Let's address each of these distinctions in turn

I don't really understand most of that. Are you able to expand on what you mean?

On the second we don't know whether Serini or Calder had more creatures enslaved. We've seen that both had multiple subjected to their stasis/enchantment magic, but we don't know who had more.

Also, once again, there is no magic forcing Calder to do as Serini wishes. Otherwise he wouldn't be trying to kill her now.

The magic was to keep Calder imprisoned. Him attacking the intruders who freed him would have been up to his own volition.

What Serini wanted from him, was for him to stay in a particular place, and only come out if intruders came in. That seems to be exactly what her magic sought to accomplish.

He's not trying to kill her because Serini;s magic allows him free will. He's attacking because her magic that had been restricting his free will has now somehow failed. Or at least that's what appears to me to have happened.

One should note that of Calder's six natural weapons (bite, two claws, two wing strikes, tail slap) only two (the claws) wouldn't overcome Xykon's DR.

Do his attacks all count as magic.

If you could indulge a rules question, how do the tail and wing attacks work? Can they only hit a foe that is within reach of the dragon on the sides or the back?

If so, it's difficult to see how xykon would come in range of them, because Xykon would tend to stand back, meaning Calder would have to be the one who approaches him for melee - and if Calder approaches (unless he crabs sideways) you'd expect it to be his front that approaches.

LadyEowyn

2024-01-25, 07:10 AM

danielxcutter

2024-01-25, 07:10 AM

All six natural weapons can hit a single target in range unless you use optional rules, but since dragons don't have very good natural flight maneuverability Calder might not be able to make full attacks in the air.

Xykon did basically facetank a full attack from Lirian Shapechanged into a dragon, but that fight was very blatantly scripted for Lirian to lose from what I hear - she used Poison on a very obvious undead creature, for the love of God - so that might just be the Giant not really paying attention to the specific rules for Xykon's damage reduction.

Tzardok

2024-01-25, 07:19 AM

The natural attacks of creatures whose DR can be overcome by magic weapons (like dragons) count as magic weapons themselves for the purpose of overcoming DR (how else could dragons fight each other?)

Facing rules don't apply in 3.5. If you are in range to be clawed, you are also in range of tail and wings. See also the ABD hitting V with all six natural weapons at once and getting burned for it. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html)

Liquor Box

2024-01-25, 07:19 AM

Nothing has been restricting Calder’s free will. He appears to have been confined within a circle, and kept in stasis for some of that time. That restricts his ability to act, not his free will.

It’s the same distinction as between “tying someone up” and “using Dominate Person or another mind-altering spell to tell them to stop moving” (or, in the case of what Calder did “using Dominate Person to force someone to become your cultist”). Liberty of action and free will are two fundamentally different concepts.

Calder has been imprisoned, with Serini banking that, if his release from the spell circle is triggered by intruders, the actions he will choose to take against the intruders will help to protect the gate.

From what people in the last thread suggested, the stasis trap wasn't just restricting the various monsters to their circles (analogous to being imprisoned or tied up), but doing something more, possibly including removing their consciousness entirely, so they weren't aware of things happening (I guess analogous to being drugged or placed in an induced coma). Admittedly, I wasn't sold on that theory because Calder said he'd been waiting, which suggested a degree of awareness. But it did seem that the restrictions of stasis did more than stop him moving. However, perhaps the reference to free will wasn't accurate.

Either way, he was put in stasis, and the expected condition of his release was that he'd be in a situation where he'd need to fight or face a decent chance of being killed by whoever was invading the dungeon. To me, having to fight or risk death, is pretty textbook compulsion even if it's not magical.

Provengreil

2024-01-25, 07:51 AM

Much was made of the fact that Xykon didn't know exactly where Soon's gate was untll he scried on Miko. It seems of the three coordinates we know of from Serini's diaru, none were to the exact location of any gate. All three appear to precisely identify the location of the entrance to the gate defences.

Deception?

Deception for who? No one was supposed to read it.

Diaries are a place where a person can write things that are true, but they never want to tell anyone else. This goes double in fiction when used for dramatic purpose, nothing in one is ever a lie(at least not intentionally). Even encoding the locations was because the locations are just THAT important.

No, those locations were recorded for her own use, and even had she forgotten where in the world the gates were she would have remembered once on site.

AstralFire

2024-01-25, 07:57 AM

I think it's *pretty clear* that Serini made a strategic mess-up with Calder.

But as a moral indictment of her, I struggle to feel strongly about "prison for very powerful evil person doubled as tactical hold-out against the end of the world". It's not what I would do, for multiple reasons...

KorvinStarmast

2024-01-25, 08:03 AM

The distinction between "cult" and "religion" is context-dependent.

In both history and fantasy, both terms are often far less distinct than what one would use to describe a current-year situation, for example. If I may toss in a gaming reference, Call of Cthulhu frequently deals in cults that are linked to ancient horrors with mind bending abilities ... as does much of Lovecraftian pulp fiction (and for that matter Clark Ashton Smith's stories).

Roy did tell us (or more accurately, the deva) previously that he's not that religious. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) But I think a critical part of the point made is getting missed: "Joke". Yes, it was meant as a joke or a barb, but this is the internet and people get wound up about stuff.

But in OotS world if enough people believe that you are a god, you become one, so a cult could turn into a legitimate if probably evil religion. I don't know if this what Calder was trying to do because I don't know if the beliefs of mind-controlled people count towards apotheosis. IIRC, TDO is a case to illustrate that, and I think that Banjo may never achieve even cult status, no matter how hard Elan tries.

The term "cult" has been used in D&D both for hidden religions of evil gods in good societies and for hidden religions of good gods in evil societies (see Eilistraee). The sole difference between a cult and a religion is size and acceptance. That's a useful distinction that does not rely on the kool aid factor.

I suspect that the Order are going to end up killing Calder and then destroying the corpse specifically because they remember that silver dragon zombie, to be honest. That would be a practical decision.

If Calder's cultists had been coming to him because he protects or rewards them, or somehow makes them powerful (teaching/granting spells) rather than having been mind controlled/dominated into serving him, you could probably make a better case for his status as being questionable. Based on his methods, there seems to be little question.

Kardwill

2024-01-25, 08:09 AM

Deception for who? No one was supposed to read it.

Diaries are a place where a person can write things that are true, but they never want to tell anyone else. This goes double in fiction when used for dramatic purpose, nothing in one is ever a lie(at least not intentionally). Even encoding the locations was because the locations are just THAT important.

No, those locations were recorded for her own use, and even had she forgotten where in the world the gates were she would have remembered once on site.

And, importantly, even if the Gate is elsewhere, the coordinates in the diary point to the only accesspoint to the final dungeon, (and to Serini's actual home, built behind that access point). It's actually more important that the "real" coordinates.

It's like giving the coordinates of an underground bunker vs. giving the coordinates of it's only door. Even if there's a long corridor between those, the second one is more useful to an intruder.

Unoriginal

2024-01-25, 08:48 AM

No, she literally said "out here, away from Kraagor's Gate", which indicates that the gate is "in there". She's just saying the Gate isn't in the backstage area.

This is a very good point, which I had not considered.

I admit I was wrong.

Honestly there's a very strong argument to make against this for practical reasons alone. This guy is strong enough to require a high-level adventurer party to defeat in combat and is smart and socially capable enough to run a dragon cult, putting him in this dungeon as a glorified miniboss encounter against his will is practically guaranteed to blow up in your face.

I still suspect that part of Serini's rationalization was that she thought she could motivate her old teammates to work together again more easily if one of their old enemies was involved.

"I need your help, enemies are making their ways through my defenses" is nice, but it lacks the punch of "I need your help, enemies are making their ways through my defenses and that foe we beat together that one time is back at being a problem", when the next sentence is going to be "we need to put the band back together".

So the difference is three things? Who is subjected to the magic. How many people are subjected to the magic. And what happens afterward. Let's address each of these distinctions in turn

I don't really understand most of that. Are you able to expand on what you mean?

For the first point: who is subjected to the magic.

Calder, as demonstrated in this last page, subjects people who happens to be near him to his mind control.

Serini (and Dorukan, as he was the one doing the stasis magic), subjected a specific, highly powerful person who is both actively malevolent and actively a threat to others to the stasis field.

Second point: how many people.

Calder had enough people subjected to his mind control for it to be called an organization.

So far, only one confirmed-for-sure sapient being has been shown in the Final Dungeon.

Third point: what happens afterward.

Calder, once he has placed someone under mind control, forces them to worship hima and to fight for him, and also visibly mutilate them or make them mutilate themselves. Because tattooing someone against their will constitute mutilation, and I somehow doubt all those people under his control got the same red dragon tattoo willingly.

Serini, once she has placed someone under stasis field, forces nothing on them. Calder could have left without fighting the Order, he even says so himself.

So that's three rather major differences.

On the second we don't know whether Serini or Calder had more creatures enslaved. We've seen that both had multiple subjected to their stasis/enchantment magic, but we don't know who had more.

We have not seen Serini have any creature enslaved.

Being put in a stasis field is imprisonment, not enslavement.

What Serini wanted from him, was for him to stay in a particular place, and only come out if intruders came in. That seems to be exactly what her magic sought to accomplish.

Then that makes clear her magic is not enslavement, it is imprisonment.

He's not trying to kill her because Serini;s magic allows him free will. He's attacking because her magic that had been restricting his free will has now somehow failed. Or at least that's what appears to me to have happened.

There is no indication that Calder ever had any magic restricting his free will. As LadyEowyn pointed out, imprisoning someone restricts their capacity to do something, not their will to do it.

Tubercular Ox

2024-01-25, 10:01 AM

Anthropologists sometimes use the word, "cult" to refer to the nuts and bolts of worshiping: How you make a priest, what you dress them in, what the altar looks like, what services you perform, etc. etc.

I bring this up just in case I accidentally use the word with this definition in the future. It's happened before.

Precure

2024-01-25, 11:28 AM

That's the normal definition. If anything, the other one is unusual and not consistent with a NPOV definition.

Unoriginal

2024-01-25, 11:29 AM

Linguistically, the distinction between "cult" and "religion" can also be a distinction that the term "cult" applies to instances in relation to the concept or individual being worshipped, while the term "religion" applies to instances about the structure/system around the belief.

For example, it would be grammatically incorrect to say that Durkon's religion is Thor. Thor is the deity. Durkon's religion could be defined Northern Pantheon henotheism, as he only worship one deity in the pantheon without denying the deity is part of it. And the fact of only worshipping one deity can be described as "the cult of Thor" or "the church of Thor".

"Cult" can also apply to certain ceremonies, meant to honor something or someone in particular, which are part of the religion.

b_jonas

2024-01-25, 11:39 AM

A bit concerning is that we saw Belkar evade the fire breath, but I didn't see Bloodfeast or Mr Scruffy anywhere in the panel. Hopefully they're ok. Maybe they're hanging back? Or do they get an "evasion" too if Belkar succeeds and they're close enough to him? drazen, The MunchKING, Tzardok, Kardwill: Bloodfeast still has the same amount of hit points as when he was a huge dinosaur, because that's how the Baleful Polymorph spell works, so he can easily tank Calder's fire. Mr. Scruffy is probably agile enough to evade just from being a cat.

bunsen_h

2024-01-25, 12:03 PM

drazen, The MunchKING, Tzardok, Kardwill: Bloodfeast still has the same amount of hit points as when he was a huge dinosaur, because that's how the Baleful Polymorph spell works, so he can easily tank Calder's fire. Mr. Scruffy is probably agile enough to evade just from being a cat.

I once had a boss villain magic user (AD&D, none of your 2, 3, 3.5, etc.) who had half a dozen bodies stashed in stasis, ready to be Magic Jar-ed. Each was a high-HD creature -- I don't recall if they were whales or dinosaurs -- which had been polymorphed into humanoid form. Whenever the current body was getting low on HP, the villain would disappear for a few rounds, swap bodies, and come back fresh for more combat.

AstralFire

2024-01-25, 12:04 PM

That's the normal definition. If anything, the other one is unusual and not consistent with a NPOV definition.

Correct. I didn't want to get hung up initially on that stuff, but the pejorative usage is not the common one within a D&D context (or most other contexts).

Mordar

2024-01-25, 12:23 PM

I agree. It's ironic that the thing which establishes Calder as so unspeakably evil, is not so far removed from the thing that Serini has done to him (in both cases using magic to force others to do as they wished.

Hugely not in evidence.

Shaq and Kobe won three rings. I wouldn't write off the possibility.

So what you're saying is that one of them would actually be the star that mattered, and the other one would just be the loudest. That would make Xykon Kobe, Calder Shaq and Redcloak...the Buss family?

On the second we don't know whether Serini or Calder had more creatures enslaved. We've seen that both had multiple subjected to their stasis/enchantment magic, but we don't know who had more.

What Serini wanted from him, was for him to stay in a particular place, and only come out if intruders came in. That seems to be exactly what her magic sought to accomplish.

He's not trying to kill her because Serini;s magic allows him free will. He's attacking because her magic that had been restricting his free will has now somehow failed. Or at least that's what appears to me to have happened.

Well, we know Calder had at least a half-dozen. We've yet to see Serini's first. Because once again, imprisonment /= slavery.

Yes, that does appear to be what Serini wanted from Calder...along with stopping it from Red Dragon Mindbendering all over the countryside.

The magic has been restricting his ability to act. It has not subjugated his will. Not unlike how a jail cell restricts any "normal" prisoner's ability to act, but does not subjugate their will. I will certainly capitulate that Calder has been held against its will, but that is not the same thing.

From what people in the last thread suggested, the stasis trap wasn't just restricting the various monsters to their circles (analogous to being imprisoned or tied up), but doing something more, possibly including removing their consciousness entirely, so they weren't aware of things happening (I guess analogous to being drugged or placed in an induced coma). Admittedly, I wasn't sold on that theory because Calder said he'd been waiting, which suggested a degree of awareness. But it did seem that the restrictions of stasis did more than stop him moving. However, perhaps the reference to free will wasn't accurate.

Either way, he was put in stasis, and the expected condition of his release was that he'd be in a situation where he'd need to fight or face a decent chance of being killed by whoever was invading the dungeon. To me, having to fight or risk death, is pretty textbook compulsion even if it's not magical.

Stasis definitionally is more than restricting to a particular area - depending on the definition, it can even including being unaffected by all other things around it, not aging, no disease progression, no damage...and yes, no cognition.

Are you saying the Scribble should have just killed Calder? That it would be less egregious to have permanently ended its life, rather than imprisoning it with the potential that it could fight for its life and freedom at a later point...and until that later point, immune to harm and utterly unaware of the passage of time? Unequivocal yes or no.

My answer: While the potential exists for multiple cycles of imprisonment, if my choices are death or stasis (no worse than death) with a possibility of getting a mulligan on the fight for my life, I'm taking the stasis and mulligan. Hope, no matter how small, seems better than (a) certain immediate death; or (b) extended (maybe even eternal) stasis which is no worse than death.

- M

BloodSquirrel

2024-01-25, 02:35 PM

I agree. It's ironic that the thing which establishes Calder as so unspeakably evil, is not so far removed from the thing that Serini has done to him (in both cases using magic to force others to do as they wished.

Aside from what others have said about this line of thought being a major reach-

If you don't agree that there's a difference between imprisonment as a punishment applied to a guilty party and imprisonment of an innocent for personal gain, then you're going to have to take a stance against law enforcement and justice systems in general. These aren't impossible positions to take, but one should be mindful of what kind of arguments they're backing themselves into.

Liquor Box

2024-01-25, 04:08 PM

Second point: how many people.

Calder had enough people subjected to his mind control for it to be called an organization.

So far, only one confirmed-for-sure sapient being has been shown in the Final Dungeon.

On my read, there are indeed others. In 1283 Serini says "Do you think I just ordered people to stand around and wait to die without knowing why", and then confirmed that that is indeed what she used to do. Note the use of the term 'people' which is both a multiple and indicates sapience.

I suppose it is possible that she released every one of those sapient non-volunteers, except Calder. But we have seen nothing in the comic to indicate that.

For the first point: who is subjected to the magic.

Calder, as demonstrated in this last page, subjects people who happens to be near him to his mind control.

Serini (and Dorukan, as he was the one doing the stasis magic), subjected a specific, highly powerful person who is both actively malevolent and actively a threat to others to the stasis field.

As noted above, Serini has indicated that there were multiple people who weren't volunteers. So there is not just one specific, highly powerful and malevolent one who she enslaved.

Third point: what happens afterward.

Calder, once he has placed someone under mind control, forces them to worship hima and to fight for him, and also visibly mutilate them or make them mutilate themselves. Because tattooing someone against their will constitute mutilation, and I somehow doubt all those people under his control got the same red dragon tattoo willingly.
Serini, once she has placed someone under stasis field, forces nothing on them. Calder could have left without fighting the Order, he even says so himself.

I think your description of what Calder's cult members are forced to do includes assumptions beyond the test. For example, nothing in the comic suggests they were forced to fight for him.

On the other hand, Serini's plan is that Calder will be forced to fight. The plan was for Calder's stasis to be triggered by invaders who had already fought through multiple defenders. Calder would then be confronted with violent invaders (like Team Evil) and be in the position of fighting or facing likely death.

Being forced to fight or face death is absolutely slavery. It doesn't require that the source of the compulsion is magical.

Are you saying the Scribble should have just killed Calder? That it would be less egregious to have permanently ended its life, rather than imprisoning it with the potential that it could fight for its life and freedom at a later point...and until that later point, immune to harm and utterly unaware of the passage of time? Unequivocal yes or no.

I don't think they were obliged to do anything with him. But having got involved in stoping the cult I think they had several options - they could imprison him (by stasis or otherwise), kill him, seek to rehabilitate him or turn him over to some authority to pounish in accordance with their laws. I'd take no issue with any of them. Where I think it turns into something a bit off is where it becomes apparent that Serini is not just imprisoning Calder, but is using him for her own purpose - as a guard.

If you don't agree that there's a difference between imprisonment as a punishment applied to a guilty party and imprisonment of an innocent for personal gain, then you're going to have to take a stance against law enforcement and justice systems in general. These aren't impossible positions to take, but one should be mindful of what kind of arguments they're backing themselves into.

I absolutely do agree there's a difference between imprisonment as punishment for a guilty party and imprisonment for the purpose of using a person for your own ends. I think what is happening here is more comparable to the latter. Indeed, that's really my main point for being critical of Serini's actions with respect to Calder and the others non-volunteerrs

What we se is Calder being used for Serini's ends - he is imprisoned to put him in a position where he can act as a guard. That is presented as the reason for Serini keeping him stasis in the middle of her dungeon. The confirmation that he is evil (which I agreed was probable last comic) does not change that, because punishment is never of that evilness is not presented as the reason he is kept here.

The comic may later show that actually there was no trigger for Calder's stasis so he was not part of the defence, and instead really was just there because that was a convenient place to store him while he was put in stasis for punishment. If so, i will revise my opinion. But that's not my read of the comic as it stands - indeed we see Serini say in 1295 "remember that I told you when I started out I wasn't using volunteers". That suggests she sees Calder as doing a task for her he didn't consent to do.

Blue Dragon

2024-01-25, 04:31 PM

How long do protection from fire lasts? I ask because looks like Durkon and Minrah took damage from Calder's breath.

Tzardok

2024-01-25, 04:47 PM

How long do protection from fire lasts? I ask because looks like Durkon and Minrah took damage from Calder's breath.

Mass Resist Energy (as the spell is called in "real life" D&D) lasts 10 Minutes/level.

Edit: Assuming all Sticklers are the same level (around 16, based on the various feats they did), Durkon's spell will last more than 2 1/2 hours. (Durkon's level is likely to be lower, because he got ressurected twice; so maybe just 130 or 140 minutes.)

Also, the spell reduces fire damage by 30 for casters over 11th level.

gbaji

2024-01-25, 09:16 PM

What we se is Calder being used for Serini's ends - he is imprisoned to put him in a position where he can act as a guard. That is presented as the reason for Serini keeping him stasis in the middle of her dungeon. The confirmation that he is evil (which I agreed was probable last comic) does not change that, because punishment is never of that evilness is not presented as the reason he is kept here.

The comic may later show that actually there was no trigger for Calder's stasis so he was not part of the defence, and instead really was just there because that was a convenient place to store him while he was put in stasis for punishment. If so, i will revise my opinion. But that's not my read of the comic as it stands - indeed we see Serini say in 1295 "remember that I told you when I started out I wasn't using volunteers". That suggests she sees Calder as doing a task for her he didn't consent to do.

I think the point is that when Serini put the first batch of creatures in the Final Dungeon, and put them into stasis, she still viewed them all as "just evil monsters", and thus tools to be used for defense of the Gate. Since then, and her whole troll conversion thing, she's seeing things differently, and thus has a different view of "monsters", and has made an active effort to treat them more as people and less as tools.

It's of note, that this presumably manifested as differences in the defenders in the standard guantlet dungeons, since those creatures were not placed in stasis. I suspect the Final Dungeon, including the creatures within, were just left as is. So yeah, the morality of imprisoning Calder in the Final Dungeon is almost certainly not lost on Serini, and if she had it all to do over, she likely would have done things differently.

As to Calder's stasis and imprisonment. While D&D doesn't always make this distinction in the form of a stat block, there are lots of sources that play on the idea of dragons having greater mental abilities, and being able to dream in ways that affect the outside world, and other cool mystical stuff. So it's possible Rich was playing on that kind of concept, that Calder, despite being in stasis, could still sense others and influence them if they came close enough to his prison. Again, not sure how that manifests in terms of an actual in game ability, but I do like the idea of something as powerful as a dragon being able to influence nearby minds, even while in some kind of stasis. And that would better explain why he was able to do what he did with Sunny, but not be able to just escape on his own previously.

Dunno. Maybe we'll get a clearer explanation in future strips.

Unoriginal

2024-01-25, 11:56 PM

I wonder what was/is Tiamat's opinion on Calder's cult activities.

danielxcutter

2024-01-26, 12:20 AM

Honestly, I don't really have strong feelings about him being imprisoned here, but why oh why is he awake? Either that's Serini not making sure the stasis was working properly, or she actually just left him like that for decades. Even as obviously Evil Calder is, that's still pretty nasty to do to someone. Remember when Haley said that using soul-binding necromancy to make sure the Linear Guild wouldn't come back would probably be Evil? I don't know if this is better or worse, but it's still comparable.

And for the record, as ghoti and others have pointed out, I think Serini's realized that. But without the rest of the Scribblers she can't go back and either freeze them entirely or let them go without risking them escaping and wrecking the defenses. Given that this is someone who was mind controlling people into a cult I don't think she'd have been losing much sleep over Calder specifically, but I think she knows and would agree by now that as a whole this was Not Very NiceTM. Maybe the Order's going to dismantle those parts of the defenses and reinstall more humane versions with her help if she's still alive at the end of all of this.

Liquor Box

2024-01-26, 12:39 AM

I think the point is that when Serini put the first batch of creatures in the Final Dungeon, and put them into stasis, she still viewed them all as "just evil monsters", and thus tools to be used for defense of the Gate. Since then, and her whole troll conversion thing, she's seeing things differently, and thus has a different view of "monsters", and has made an active effort to treat them more as people and less as tools.

It's of note, that this presumably manifested as differences in the defenders in the standard guantlet dungeons, since those creatures were not placed in stasis. I suspect the Final Dungeon, including the creatures within, were just left as is. So yeah, the morality of imprisoning Calder in the Final Dungeon is almost certainly not lost on Serini, and if she had it all to do over, she likely would have done things differently.

I think you are quite likely right that she originally just saw them as monsters which she could place in a dungeon to fight and die. Which is consistent with various characters slaughtering monsters because that's all they are. But surely if you have a slave, but then become more enlightened and think that enslaving monsters is wrong, you release them. And Serini hasn't done that.

There may be an explanation, maybe she did release them all, but she was too frightened of Calder. But nothing we've been shown hints at that.

I agree that Serini herself seems to think that her history of commandeering monsters instead of using volunteers was wrong. Which is why I'm surprised there is so much resistance to people saying so.

And for the record, as ghoti and others have pointed out, I think Serini's realized that. But without the rest of the Scribblers she can't go back and either freeze them entirely or let them go without risking them escaping and wrecking the defenses. Given that this is someone who was mind controlling people into a cult I don't think she'd have been losing much sleep over Calder specifically, but I think she knows and would agree by now that as a whole this was Not Very NiceTM. Maybe the Order's going to dismantle those parts of the defenses and reinstall more humane versions with her help if she's still alive at the end of all of this.

I may have the timeline wrong, but didn't her epiphany about monsters come when the trolls were healing her after Xykon's attack - so long before Dorukon and GIrard's demise?

I'd me much more inclined to agree if we had some indication from the comic that the only lives that Serini continued to forcibly use as a speedbump for attackers, were those that she had no way to safely release.

danielxcutter

2024-01-26, 12:45 AM

Liquor Box

2024-01-26, 12:52 AM

Well, he probably started attacking Dorukan not long after, and it probably wouldn't be too hard to figure out if Girard was dead using divination spells. Either way, it doesn't really matter; my point is that by the time she realized that was wrong, she no longer actually had the capabilities to fix it on her own.

We don't know when Girard died, but it looks like it was six years between Xykon attacking Serini, and arriving at Dorukan's dungeon. So he, at least, was available.

As I said, I'd be much more inclined to believe that she didn't have the capability to release them if the comic indicated that. Maybe it will, but we've had no hint of that so far.

danielxcutter

2024-01-26, 01:06 AM

Peelee

2024-01-26, 01:16 AM

Actually, when did Girard die again? We know Soon died pretty long ago, when Shojo was still young, and I don't expect Girard lived much longer. So maybe he'd already died of natural causes by the time Xykon paid Serini a visit.

Soon was relatively old when he formed the Scribble. I'd say probably 40s, Girard likely early 20s. We also don't know when Soon died, only when he relinquished control to Shojo's father.

Yirggzmb

2024-01-26, 01:36 AM

I agree that Serini herself seems to think that her history of commandeering monsters instead of using volunteers was wrong. Which is why I'm surprised there is so much resistance to people saying so.

From what I can tell, most people seem to object mostly to your use of the word "slave". Calder isn't a slave. He's been locked up, presumably on the idea that he'll lash out at anyone who doesn't immediately grovel. But there's nothing forcing him to do anything. Calder is the one who decided to attack. No one in the group had even made a move to attack first, and Roy flat out said they didn't want to fight even, so you can't really argue he's being compelled by the idea that he has to kill first to protect himself because he wasn't in danger.

I'm not saying it's a Good action to have locked him up on the expectation he'll attack anyone who comes by. Because clearly even Sereni has had second thoughts on that. It's just the word "slave" has a much higher level of Evil than "locked in a room, theoretically with time not passing for him", and that's what people are objecting to.

I also kinda wonder how she was supposed to have traded out the original monsters for volunteers, to be honest. Wake them up, hope they don't kill her on sight, and let them go? I also wonder what the plan would have been had one of the monsters in there had stopped an adventuring party and now was just free to roam. To me it feels like part of the lesson here is going to be "even putting morality aside, this was a really impractical idea" and that the rest of Sereni's story is going to be dealing with naive decisions she made in her past even if it would have been easier not to.

Liquor Box

2024-01-26, 02:01 AM

From what I can tell, most people seem to object mostly to your use of the word "slave". Calder isn't a slave. He's been locked up, presumably on the idea that he'll lash out at anyone who doesn't immediately grovel. But there's nothing forcing him to do anything. Calder is the one who decided to attack. No one in the group had even made a move to attack first, and Roy flat out said they didn't want to fight even, so you can't really argue he's being compelled by the idea that he has to kill first to protect himself because he wasn't in danger.

I'm not saying it's a Good action to have locked him up on the expectation he'll attack anyone who comes by. Because clearly even Sereni has had second thoughts on that. It's just the word "slave" has a much higher level of Evil than "locked in a room, theoretically with time not passing for him", and that's what people are objecting to.

Yes, I agree. Nobody forced Calder to attack Serini and the Order. But Serini didn't expect it to be her and some companions who Calder saw when his stasis ended, she expected it to be hostile invaders - the likes of Team Evil. In that situation Calder may well have been forced to fight. Now I get that it's the invader who is forcing him to fight (by attacking him) at one level, but it was Serini who put him in that situation for that very purpose so at that level it is her putting Calder in the position where he's forced to fight.

I don't like the term 'imprisoned' because that's not all I think it was. It wasn't, IMO, just a case of Calder being preoperly restrained for a period as just punishment. That is because of what I said above, he's put in a situation where the intent is that he will be forced to fight to the death. But, I'm happy to go with terms other than 'slave', like 'forced to fight' instead - just not words that minimise what is happening, like 'imprisoned'.

I also kinda wonder how she was supposed to have traded out the original monsters for volunteers, to be honest. Wake them up, hope they don't kill her on sight, and let them go? I also wonder what the plan would have been had one of the monsters in there had stopped an adventuring party and now was just free to roam. To me it feels like part of the lesson here is going to be "even putting morality aside, this was a really impractical idea" and that the rest of Sereni's story is going to be dealing with naive decisions she made in her past even if it would have been easier not to.

I asked that in the last thread. What was the plan if Calder actually killed the invaders - wouldn't he then be a threat to the rest of the defences, and the gate itself (if it's nearby). The answer I got was that Serini and her companions would quickly round him up again and put him back in stasis before he could do any damage.

I agree, I'm not entirely convinced of that answer myself. I also agree that Serini being scared of Calder's reaction is a plausible reason fro or not releasing him. Even if she had some means to transport him far away before releasing him, she has a powerful enemy who may6 come back for her. So that's entirely plausible (although maybe not for all her involuntary soldiers), but the comic hasn't hinted that is the reason.

Tzardok

2024-01-26, 03:17 AM

I wonder what was/is Tiamat's opinion on Calder's cult activities.

Evil (or more rarely, good) dragons being worshipped is a staple in DnD. In those cases, the dragon's patron (usually Tiamat) typically sponsors the cult, i.e. takes over spell-granting duties for clerics and so on, but also earns the benefits, like gaining the believers' worship and souls. This is dependent on the Dragon teaching the worshippers beliefs and rites that are actually in-sync with the god's actual teachings; a bunch of primitives that find a sleeping red dragon and worship it as a provider of harvest ain't gonna give Tiamat sh*t.

Of course, all of this is only theoretical, as someone dominated or charmed into going through the motions of worshipping something won't generate any faith at all. Even spells like Programmed Amnesia, which allow rewriting memories, are a crapshot when dealing with heartfelt beliefs.

Edit: I Imagine Tiamat's reaction to Calder's cult as an indulgent: "How sweet, one of my children got himself a bunch of toy soldiers!*

Kardwill

2024-01-26, 04:10 AM

Even if she had some means to transport him far away before releasing him, she has a powerful enemy who may6 come back for her.

And she would have released an angry, evil, powerful dragon, known for slavery and wanton murder, upon whoever lived nearby his "release point". So, the only realistic release program for Calder would have been killing him.
Did Sernini have the ressources to do that without endangering the Gate? Did she want to take that risk out of compassion to an old enemy (and complete monster) like Calder? Just so that he was dead rather than in stasis?

Would the Scribblers have helped? By the time Serini had her change of heart, it had been 5 or 6 decades since the groups had their last adventure.
- Lirian and all her followers were dead.
- Dorukan was old, hidden in his fortress, itching for a fight against whoever had killed his lover.
- Soon was dead, and his paladins had taken an oath never to deal with another gate's problems.
- Girard was a paranoid, bitter wreck, he was probably already dead, and his followers were a paranoid cult (it's almost comical to see the similarities between Soon's and Girard's gates, when I think about it)

Even if the old party had been available, Serini was confident in her ability to rally them for a last adventure against someone threatening her gate, but would they have forgotten their grievances and rallied for something like "Hey, remember that evil dragon we took out 60 years ago? I feel bad for him. Let's endager ourselves and the gates so that we can release/kill him"

Ruck

2024-01-26, 05:42 AM

Liquor Box

2024-01-26, 06:18 AM

And she would have released an angry, evil, powerful dragon, known for slavery and wanton murder, upon whoever lived nearby his "release point". So, the only realistic release program for Calder would have been killing him.
Did Sernini have the ressources to do that without endangering the Gate? Did she want to take that risk out of compassion to an old enemy (and complete monster) like Calder? Just so that he was dead rather than in stasis?

Would the Scribblers have helped? By the time Serini had her change of heart, it had been 5 or 6 decades since the groups had their last adventure.
- Lirian and all her followers were dead.
- Dorukan was old, hidden in his fortress, itching for a fight against whoever had killed his lover.
- Soon was dead, and his paladins had taken an oath never to deal with another gate's problems.
- Girard was a paranoid, bitter wreck, he was probably already dead, and his followers were a paranoid cult (it's almost comical to see the similarities between Soon's and Girard's gates, when I think about it)

Even if the old party had been available, Serini was confident in her ability to rally them for a last adventure against someone threatening her gate, but would they have forgotten their grievances and rallied for something like "Hey, remember that evil dragon we took out 60 years ago? I feel bad for him. Let's endager ourselves and the gates so that we can release/kill him"

We don't know whether any of those limitations applied because the story hasn't suggested that Serini was minded to stop relying on the monsters she compelled to be guards. But I will make two points.

First, you refer to Serini releasing Calder (and any others) our of compassion, and her feeling bad for him. I don't think it requires much compassion (or any) to refrain from forcing others to risk their lives for you against their will. This isn't Serini compassionately rescuing Calder from some threat - it's Serini releasing from the forced servitude she bound him to. Any dnager to her or her dungeon, is a danger arising from undoing a situation of her making - kind of like the danger of breaking into somewhere to return the things you stole.

Second, a simple way that Serini could stop forcing Calder and her other unwilling soldiers to fight for her, would simply be to disarm their stasis trap triggers. Then they would be simply imprisoned and not unwilling speedbumps as well.

Peelee

2024-01-26, 06:28 AM

Yes, I agree. Nobody forced Calder to attack Serini and the Order. But Serini didn't expect it to be her and some companions who Calder saw when his stasis ended, she expected it to be hostile invaders - the likes of Team Evil. In that situation Calder may well have been forced to fight. Now I get that it's the invader who is forcing him to fight (by attacking him) at one level, but it was Serini who put him in that situation for that very purpose so at that level it is her putting Calder in the position where he's forced to fight.

I don't like the term 'imprisoned' because that's not all I think it was. It wasn't, IMO, just a case of Calder being preoperly restrained for a period as just punishment. That is because of what I said above, he's put in a situation where the intent is that he will be forced to fight to the death. But, I'm happy to go with terms other than 'slave', like 'forced to fight' instead - just not words that minimise what is happening, like 'imprisoned'.

I asked that in the last thread. What was the plan if Calder actually killed the invaders - wouldn't he then be a threat to the rest of the defences, and the gate itself (if it's nearby). The answer I got was that Serini and her companions would quickly round him up again and put him back in stasis before he could do any damage.

I agree, I'm not entirely convinced of that answer myself. I also agree that Serini being scared of Calder's reaction is a plausible reason fro or not releasing him. Even if she had some means to transport him far away before releasing him, she has a powerful enemy who may6 come back for her. So that's entirely plausible (although maybe not for all her involuntary soldiers), but the comic hasn't hinted that is the reason.
You keep using the word "forced". Which magical runes force Caldera to fight? Where does Serini say that she enchanted him to always fight anyone and everyone who comes across him? By what mechanism has Serini stripped him of his ability to say "oh, non-Serini creatures? Feel free to pass unmolested. In fact, free me and I will even help you" instead of, for example, "insufficiently servile [breath weapon]"?

I feel like you are using your dislike of Serini to interpret everything regarding her in the worst possible way.

Kish

2024-01-26, 06:40 AM

I think Serini was counting on anything strong enough to reach Calder being at least as big a threat to have wandering around in her dungeon as Calder was, and thus "Calder is released -> there is now one Calder-level threat wandering around in your dungeon" being a lateral move at worst, with the best-case scenario being something like "after Calder's mind control turned some members of the evil adventuring party against each other, Calder is dead and all but one member of said adventuring party is dead."

I do not think she had plans for "Calder is freed" or "Calder makes everything worse for me."

I do not think "enslaving" is an unfair or inaccurate word. She stuck him in the dungeon in a bid to make him do something for her. If this is actually a prison complex I want to know the charges against the paragon rust monster.

Unoriginal

2024-01-26, 06:56 AM

I do not think "enslaving" is an unfair or inaccurate word. She stuck him in the dungeon in a bid to make him do something for her.

As Calder acknowledged before trying to burn people he never met to death, there is nothing compelling him to have a fight here.

It's not enslavement if you can just decide to walk out without doing the task.

If this is actually a prison complex I want to know the charges against the paragon rust monster.

Rust monsters are non-sapient beings.

Liquor Box

2024-01-26, 07:05 AM

You keep using the word "forced". Which magical runes force Caldera to fight? Where does Serini say that she enchanted him to always fight anyone and everyone who comes across him? By what mechanism has Serini stripped him of his ability to say "oh, non-Serini creatures? Feel free to pass unmolested. In fact, free me and I will even help you" instead of, for example, "insufficiently servile [breath weapon]"?

Magical compulsion is not necessary for someone to be compelled to do something against their will. Otherwise it would be impossible to force anyone to do anything ever in the real world, where magic does not exist.

The mechanism by which he is compelled to fight the invader, rather than usher them onward, is that Serini knows the invader is very likely to attack on sight. After all, the plan was the invaders would have to have already fought their way through 100 dungeons, where they had to kill every monster they saw.

I feel like you are using your dislike of Serini to interpret everything regarding her in the worst possible way.

Not at all. For example i defended her when some people said it was inappropriate for her to bring her beholder into combat.

I do think that some people in this thread (and others about Serini) seem to have their opinions coloured by their preconceptions. But the fact that Serini herself now seems to understand that forcing Calder and others to fight for her is wrong, suggests to me that it those defending her are interpreting everything about her the best possible way.

I think Serini was counting on anything strong enough to reach Calder being at least as big a threat to have wandering around in her dungeon as Calder was, and thus "Calder is released -> there is now one Calder-level threat wandering around in your dungeon" being a lateral move at worst, with the best-case scenario being something like "after Calder's mind control turned some members of the evil adventuring party against each other, Calder is dead and all but one member of said adventuring party is dead."

I do not think she had plans for "Calder is freed" or "Calder makes everything worse for me."

I do not think "enslaving" is an unfair or inaccurate word. She stuck him in the dungeon in a bid to make him do something for her. If this is actually a prison complex I want to know the charges against the paragon rust monster.

Accurate.

As Calder acknowledged before trying to burn people he never met to death, there is nothing compelling him to have a fight here.

It's not enslavement if you can just decide to walk out without doing the task.

I don't think anyone is saying Calder was forced to attack the armed warriors accompanying his slaver. Instead the point is that he is likely to be forced to fight when confronted by an invader like Team Evil or similar, who has just fought their way through 100 previous dungeons where they had to fight every monster the saw.

It's possible that the invades might be the 'ask questions first, shoot second type'. But Serini's counting on that not happening, or there would be no value putting Calder (and others she's forced) here at all.

danielxcutter

2024-01-26, 07:08 AM

Rust monsters are non-sapient beings.

Int 3+ is sufficient to qualify as sapience IIRC, and the Paragon template explicitly increases all stats by 15, including Int.

Peelee

2024-01-26, 07:34 AM

I do not think "enslaving" is an unfair or inaccurate word. She stuck him in the dungeon in a bid to make him do something for her.
Your definition of "enslavement" is noticeably looser than any i have encountered before. Shojo had the Order brought to him and put through a sham trial ij a bid to make them do something for him. Did Shojo likewise enslave the Order? (for the record, since i think it's not out of hand that you would say that yes, that is slavery, let me just go ahead and say that i certainly do not think so and would disagree with anyone who thinks it is).

V and the kobold is a good example of enslavement, since there, someone actually forced someone else to do things against their will and they could not refuse.

Magical compulsion is not necessary for someone to be compelled to do something against their will. Otherwise it would be impossible to force anyone to do anything ever in the real world, where magic does not exist.
I am aware. The question was not intended as "only magic can do this so show me the magic". It was intended to show you that she had imprisoned him, but the imprisonment lacked any sort of mechanism to force him to do anything except remain imprisoned. Unless you wish to equate all forms of being imprisoned with slavery, then I would hesitate to call what she did "slavery".

The mechanism by which he is compelled to fight the invader, rather than usher them onward, is that Serini knows the invader is very likely to attack on sight. After all, the plan was the invaders would have to have already fought their way through 100 dungeons, where they had to kill every monster they saw.

By this logic, Serini enslaved herself into never releasing Calder, since it would be very likely for him to attack on sight. And unless you wish to claim that any given invader could one-shot Calder immediately, then Calder would still have the capability to talk, and thus negotiate or capitulate.

Going by what we have seen of Calder, it seems as if he would never go this and would either enslave (actually enslave) or kill any he encountered on his own volition. For the record, i am assuming here that any invaders would indeed count as I sufficiently servile for Calder.

Serini decided to ride the tiger. She is now facing why that is almost invariably a horrible thing to do. But it's not "enslavement".

Unoriginal

2024-01-26, 07:34 AM

The mechanism by which he is compelled to fight the invader, rather than usher them onward, is that Serini knows the invader is very likely to attack on sight. After all, the plan was the invaders would have to have already fought their way through 100 dungeons, where they had to kill every monster they saw.

[...]

Instead the point is that he is likely to be forced to fight when confronted by an invader like Team Evil or similar, who has just fought their way through 100 previous dungeons where they had to fight every monster the saw.

It's possible that the invades might be the 'ask questions first, shoot second type'. But Serini's counting on that not happening, or there would be no value putting Calder (and others she's forced) here at all.

That is accurate, however I will point out that "being attacked" and "having to fight" are two very different things.

Calder is more than likely able to endure several rounds of a fight against a whole Epic level party, which is more than enough for him to escape if he doesn't want to fight.

It is undeniable that Serini expected Calder to get attacked and/or hurt. That alone is enough to qualify the conditions of his imprisonment as beyond harsh, perhaps even torturous, before even getting into the rest.

But again, the terms "slavery" or "enslavement" have specific meanings and implications.

If someone is pursued by a gang, and runs in the direction of another gang they know their pursuers will attack on sight in an effort to get them off their back, then this person is certainly not enslaving the second gang.

EDIT:

Other example that come to mind is starting a bar fight to prevent your opponents from capturing you. You're certainly putting the other patrons in the bar through potential harm, but that doesn't constitute slavery.

Peelee

2024-01-26, 07:39 AM

That is accurate, however I will point out that "being attacked" and "having to fight" are two very different things.

Calder is more than likely able to endure several rounds of a fight against a whole Epic level party, which is more than enough for him to escape if he doesn't want to fight.

It is undeniable that Serini expected Calder to get attacked and/or hurt. That alone is enough to qualify the conditions of his imprisonment as beyond harsh, perhaps even torturous, before even getting into the rest.

But again, the terms "slavery" or "enslavement" have specific meanings and implications.

If someone is pursued by a gang, and runs in the direction of another gang they know their pursuers will attack on sight in an effort to get them off their back, then this person is certainly not enslaving the second gang.

This is an excellent breakdown. I don't think anybody is saying what she did was a Good. (and i would be the first to disagree with anyone who did). I'd even say it was Evil. But it was not "enslavement".

Liquor Box

2024-01-26, 07:49 AM

Your definition of "enslavement" is noticeably looser than any i have encountered before. Shojo had the Order brought to him and put through a sham trial ij a bid to make them do something for him. Did Shojo likewise enslave the Order? (for the record, since i think it's not out of hand that you would say that yes, that is slavery, let me just go ahead and say that i certainly do not think so and would disagree with anyone who thinks it is).

Not loose at all. Gladiators in Rome were locked up, then put in an arena where they would be attacked, so had little choice but to fight back. Such gladiators are widely considered to have been slaves, and that is very similar to what Serini has done to Calder and the other non-volunteers.

I am aware. The question was not intended as "only magic can do this so show me the magic". It was intended to show you that she had imprisoned him, but the imprisonment lacked any sort of mechanism to force him to do anything except remain imprisoned. Unless you wish to equate all forms of being imprisoned with slavery, then I would hesitate to call what she did "slavery".

Well you did say "what magic was forcing him" twice in the question. But I guess it's moot, because i also explained the mechanism.

By this logic, Serini enslaved herself into never releasing Calder, since it would be very likely for him to attack on sight. And unless you wish to claim that any given invader could one-shot Calder immediately, then Calder would still have the capability to talk, and thus negotiate or capitulate.

Going by what we have seen of Calder, it seems as if he would never go this and would either enslave (actually enslave) or kill any he encountered on his own volition. For the record, i am assuming here that any invaders would indeed count as I sufficiently servile for Calder.

Serini decided to ride the tiger. She is now facing why that is almost invariably a horrible thing to do. But it's not "enslavement".

Except, by definition, you cannot enslave yourself. So she did not enslave herself.

A stealthy invade might indeed kill or incapacitate Calder before he even sees them. But even if not, Calder could try talking, but there's every chance the other party wouldn't be in a mood to listen. Again, it's possible that fighting could be avoided, but every chance it couldn't (by Calder at least0

That is accurate, however I will point out that "being attacked" and "having to fight" are two very different things.

Calder is more than likely able to endure several rounds of a fight against a whole Epic level party, which is more than enough for him to escape if he doesn't want to fight.

It is undeniable that Serini expected Calder to get attacked and/or hurt. That alone is enough to qualify the conditions of his imprisonment as beyond harsh, perhaps even torturous, before even getting into the rest.

But again, the terms "slavery" or "enslavement" have specific meanings and implications.

If someone is pursued by a gang, and runs in the direction of another gang they know their pursuers will attack on sight in an effort to get them off their back, then this person is certainly not enslaving the second gang.

EDIT:

Other example that come to mind is starting a bar fight to prevent your opponents from capturing you. You're certainly putting the other patrons in the bar through potential harm, but that doesn't constitute slavery.

No, you are right. Putting someone in a position where violence is likely probably isn't enough by itself. For slavery you need both deprivation on liberty as well as putting someone in a position where they have no real choice but to do what you want them to (such as fight invaders).

Your leading one gang into another doesn't have the deprivation or freedom element (although it may still be questionable if the second gang got hurt or killed). What Serini has done to Calder and all the others has both elements though - his freedom had been taken from him for an extended period and he is put in a position where he will probably have no real choice except to do the thing Serini wants him to do.

See the gladiaotor example I put to Peelee above. They were imprisoned for a period, and then put in a position where they were facing an opponent who would attack them. They were absolutely slaves, and that is quite similar to what Serini is doing to those unwilling speed bumps she 'ordered' (her word) to defend the dungeon.

Provengreil

2024-01-26, 07:59 AM

We don't know when Girard died, but it looks like it was six years between Xykon attacking Serini, and arriving at Dorukan's dungeon. So he, at least, was available.

As I said, I'd be much more inclined to believe that she didn't have the capability to release them if the comic indicated that. Maybe it will, but we've had no hint of that so far.

Any of the Scribblers may have been available, but not all of them. Kraagor would have been long gone, Soon would no longer play ball, and she might have been able to get both Lirian and Dorukan but I don't recall an indication of her knowing they were sweet. In Serini's footprints, I wouldn't go back to wake him up either.

Liquor Box

2024-01-26, 08:02 AM

Any of the Scribblers may have been available, but not all of them. Kraagor would have been long gone, Soon would no longer play ball, and she might have been able to get both Lirian and Dorukan but I don't recall an indication of her knowing they were sweet. In Serini's footprints, I wouldn't go back to wake him up either.

Quite right, other than Dorukan, the others may not have been available.

But Serini could always have simply turned off the stasis triggers - so the monsters are actually just imprisoned and not being forced to fight and die. Still be pretty questionable, especially if some of the monsters are entirely innocent (see Kish's question about what the rust monster did).

Provengreil

2024-01-26, 08:23 AM

Quite right, other than Dorukan, the others may not have been available.

But Serini could always have simply turned off the stasis triggers - so the monsters are actually just imprisoned and not being forced to fight and die. Still be pretty questionable, especially if some of the monsters are entirely innocent (see Kish's question about what the rust monster did).

Can't make that claim without knowing what the triggers are. We still don't even know how or why Calder is awake: Serini clearly didn't know this was possible.

Peelee

2024-01-26, 08:24 AM

The MunchKING

2024-01-26, 08:28 AM

I wonder what was/is Tiamat's opinion on Calder's cult activities.

Who do you think TOLD the Scribblers about it?? :smallcool:

But more realistically, probably proud of his hustle but careful to make sure he didn't ACTUALLY come close enough to Apotheosis to be a threat to her.

I do not think "enslaving" is an unfair or inaccurate word. She stuck him in the dungeon in a bid to make him do something for her. If this is actually a prison complex I want to know the charges against the paragon rust monster.

Presumably "Attacking the Scribblers", and possibly "Costing Kragor 64k GP from eating his axe" or something. :smalltongue:

Not loose at all. Gladiators in Rome were locked up, then put in an arena where they would be attacked, so had little choice but to fight back. Such gladiators are widely considered to have been slaves, and that is very similar to what Serini has done to Calder and the other non-volunteers.

From the way I understand it, Criminals that the Empire wanted dead weren't given any chance to fight back. They were just fed to lions, or executed in some other spectacle. Like, they'd just break your knees or cut your hamstrings if they thought you would actually fight back.

The ones that were allowed to do the fighting were slaves in a more traditional sense, or indeed freemen. And they were more like pro-wrestlers than forced into death matches. Training, maintaining, and equipping gladiators was expensive, both in time and resources, so you didn't want them dying all over the place. It HAPPENED occasionally, especially in the animal fights, but they tried to avoid it as a general rule.

KorvinStarmast

2024-01-26, 08:32 AM

As to Calder's stasis and imprisonment. While D&D doesn't always make this distinction in the form of a stat block, there are lots of sources that play on the idea of dragons having greater mental abilities, and being able to dream in ways that affect the outside world, and other cool mystical stuff. George Lucas and Chris Claremont used that theme in Shadow Moon if I remember correctly. (I liked that book series).

I think you are quite likely right that she originally just saw them as monsters which she could place in a dungeon to fight and die. Which is consistent with various characters slaughtering monsters because that's all they are. The problem with all of this discussion is as old as the problems of making a dungeon and stocking it with monsters. What do they do before adventurers arrive to encounter them? In a very real sense, they are Schroedinger's monsters; you don't know if they are there until you enter into the dungeon. (Which is a different take than the Quantum Ogre thing that people complain about).

when the trolls were healing her after Xykon's attack - so long before Dorukon and GIrard's demise? Before Dorukon's demise but after Girard's, I suspect. I'd like to point out that that the other three Scribblers - Dorukan, Girard, and Lirian - are complicit in the act of confining various beings in this gate's defense. You seem to be leaning a bit harder on Serini than is warranted.

Evil (or more rarely, good) dragons being worshipped is a staple in DnD. In those cases, the dragon's patron (usually Tiamat) typically sponsors the cult, i.e. takes over spell-granting duties for clerics and so on, but also earns the benefits, like gaining the believers' worship and souls. Is this a 3.x thing? Tiamat taking over dragon cults?

Edit: I Imagine Tiamat's reaction to Calder's cult as an indulgent: "How sweet, one of my children got himself a bunch of toy soldiers!* Yeah, that fits. :smallsmile:

And she would have released an angry, evil, powerful dragon, known for slavery and wanton murder, upon whoever lived nearby his "release point". So, the only realistic release program for Calder would have been killing him. I suppose we could start a whole new thread on the Original D&D and AD&D dragon subdual thing, since it is a curious feature of the game.

Would the Scribblers have helped? By the time Serini had her change of heart, it had been 5 or 6 decades since the groups had their last adventure.
- Lirian and all her followers were dead.
- Dorukan was old, hidden in his fortress, itching for a fight against whoever had killed his lover.
- Soon was dead, and his paladins had taken an oath never to deal with another gate's problems.
- Girard was a paranoid, bitter wreck, he was probably already dead, and his followers were a paranoid cult (it's almost comical to see the similarities between Soon's and Girard's gates, when I think about it) Would they have helped? Probably.

...but would they have forgotten their grievances and rallied for something like "Hey, remember that evil dragon we took out 60 years ago? I feel bad for him. Let's endager ourselves and the gates so that we can release/kill him" Probably not. Lacking Soon and Kraagor they might not be sanguine about their prospects for handling Calder a second time ...

I feel like you are using your dislike of Serini to interpret everything regarding her in the worst possible way. It's a thing on these forums, some folks choose to do that.

Your definition of "enslavement" is noticeably looser than any i have encountered before Concur. But it's a nice emotive term ... :smallyuk:...like a few others I'll not mention since we don't want this thread to turn into a bun fight and get closed.

Tzardok

2024-01-26, 08:34 AM

I would argue that you can enslave yourself (see also "selling yourself into slavery")

I also remember an erotic story where a wizard designed a box that brainwashed anybody who enters it into being a mindless slave for whoever opens the box first and then put herself into it, because that was her fetish.

Provengreil

2024-01-26, 08:35 AM

I'm sorry Korvin, but....Quantum Ogre? I must know more.

KorvinStarmast

2024-01-26, 08:38 AM

I'm sorry Korvin, but....Quantum Ogre? I must know more. It is a criticism of a certain DM style where no matter which fork in the road the players choose to take, they end up running into a pre set encounter/monster.

The quantum ogre is an encounter or situation that occurs regardless of the players’ decisions. It refers to the concept of quantum superposition, and in this use it’s meant as “an ogre who exists in multiple states until observed”. That is, the DM designs an ogre encounter, but he doesn’t decide when the encounter occurs. There have been pages and pages written on that by various Game Master bloggers. (I am sure Alexandrian has a piece on it as well, but he's not the only one).

When a DM prepares various encounters and parts of a game world, and the players don't ever engage with them, it is quite tempting to move those encounters around so that the players do engage with them, else the prep time was wasted ... that's one PoV on it.

Provengreil

2024-01-26, 08:41 AM

It is a criticism of a certain DM style where no matter which fork in the road the players choose to take, they end up running into a pre set encounter/monster.
There have been pages and pages written on that by various Game Master bloggers. (I am sure Alexandrian has a piece on it as well, but he's not the only one).

When a DM prepares various encounters and parts of a game world, and the players don't ever engage with them, it is quite tempting to move those encounters around so that the players do engage with them, else the prep time was wasted ... that's one PoV on it.

Oh, I see. Turns out I've actually done that, for random encounters at least. Saves a lot of time on game day.

The MunchKING

2024-01-26, 08:41 AM

I'm sorry Korvin, but....Quantum Ogre? I must know more.

The idea comes across a split in the path, they can choose to go left or right.

If they go down the left path, there will be an ogre there that wants to fight them.

If they go down the right path the same ogre will be over there waiting to fight them.

If they go off-road and start going cross country they will run into the same ogre.

Did the players have meaningful choice there, when either way the GM is going to make them encounter an ogre?

Tzardok

2024-01-26, 08:45 AM

Is this a 3.x thing? Tiamat taking over dragon cults?

Pretty sure it's always been like that. But it's also not really a takeover. Imagine it like a business: The dragon is the CEO and makes the decisions, but Tiamat (or Bahamut, or Io, or whoever) is the main stakeholder. She puts the actual money (clerical and other divine power) in to make the whole thing work, and she reaps the most part of the profits (worship and souls).

That's incidentally not unique to dragons. Cults worshipping aboleths and beholders for example are sponsored by Piscaethces and the Great Mother, respectively. Nor is it even unique to monster cults. In the Forgotten Realms, Shar, the goddess of night, infiltrated the Chultan religion by masquerading as the shadow god Eshowdow. Another example, some seemingly non-theist dwarven cults worshipping weapons and revenge instead unknowingly draw on Diinkarazan, the fallen dwarven and now derro god of revenge.

Gods are pretty good at skimming off wherever there's an opportunity.

Peelee

2024-01-26, 08:55 AM

From the way I understand it, Criminals that the Empire wanted dead weren't given any chance to fight back. They were just fed to lions, or executed in some other spectacle. Like, they'd just break your knees or cut your hamstrings if they thought you would actually fight back.

The ones that were allowed to do the fighting were slaves in a more traditional sense, or indeed freemen. And they were more like pro-wrestlers than forced into death matches. Training, maintaining, and equipping gladiators was expensive, both in time and resources, so you didn't want them dying all over the place. It HAPPENED occasionally, especially in the animal fights, but they tried to avoid it as a general rule.

The Romans were also really big on re-enactments of battles, with the Roman side being well-equipped with professional gladiators and the enemy side being poorly equipped with criminals and slaves. The film Gladiator (really fun movie and I loved it, but it's not that far behind Braveheart on the "most wildly historically inaccurate movies ever" list) even had one of these, where Maximus was part of the barbarian horde, largely undefended and unarmed, while the gladiators acting as Romans had chariots and the like. The Romans even had freaking naval re-enactments, which they accomplished by flooding the Colosseum, which is just a crazy feat of engineering.

KorvinStarmast

2024-01-26, 08:58 AM

Oh, I see. Turns out I've actually done that, for random encounters at least. Saves a lot of time on game day. Yes, it does. But I prefer to use it sparingly. When players go places I have not prepared for I can choose to make random encounters or no encounter or an environmental encounter.

Pretty sure it's always been like that.
No, it hasn't. Maybe it began to gel/coalesce in AD&D 2d edition? That's why I asked about it being a 3.x thing. The much cited Draconomicon was published in that edition.

In Original (plus Greyhawk), Basic, and AD&D 1e Tiamat doing that was hardly an established convention. (Not necessarily a bad bit of world building, all said and done); that sort of thing (to that level of granularity) wasn't a feature of the game at that piont.

For Peelee:
There is (or rather, was) a colosseum in a place called Cumae (not far from Naples, Italy) where the flooding for mock sea battles is well attested by historians. There was also one in Pozzuoli (a city also near Naples, Italy, which also happens to be Sofia Loren's hometown).

The engineering to pull that off in the Big Colosseum in Rome itself would have been impressive. (Then again, Romans were, if nothing else, good engineers).

Tzardok

2024-01-26, 09:16 AM

Well, I'm pretty sure that gods secretly being behind cults whenever they could conceivably get away with it was part of 2e lore, but I couldn't tell you where I heard it first.

Unoriginal

2024-01-26, 09:17 AM

Not loose at all. Gladiators in Rome were locked up, then put in an arena where they would be attacked, so had little choice but to fight back. Such gladiators are widely considered to have been slaves, and that is very similar to what Serini has done to Calder and the other non-volunteers.

[...]

No, you are right. Putting someone in a position where violence is likely probably isn't enough by itself. For slavery you need both deprivation on liberty as well as putting someone in a position where they have no real choice but to do what you want them to (such as fight invaders).

Your leading one gang into another doesn't have the deprivation or freedom element (although it may still be questionable if the second gang got hurt or killed). What Serini has done to Calder and all the others has both elements though - his freedom had been taken from him for an extended period and he is put in a position where he will probably have no real choice except to do the thing Serini wants him to do.

See the gladiaotor example I put to Peelee above. They were imprisoned for a period, and then put in a position where they were facing an opponent who would attack them. They were absolutely slaves, and that is quite similar to what Serini is doing to those unwilling speed bumps she 'ordered' (her word) to defend the dungeon.

Gladiatorial slaves were slaves both in and out of the arena. They could not choose "I leave rather than fight". If they tried to, they would have been stopped.

That is literally seen in-comic, even. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0798.html)

In other words, gladiatorial slaves had their freedom restricted even when came the time to fight. They weren't pushed into an arena with someone (or something) attacking them relentlessly and forced to defend or die.

Prisoners thrown into the arena to be killed by beasts is a different matter, they were neither gladiators expected to fight nor slaves, just prisoners being executed in a showy manner.

There is nothing stopping Calder from avoiding the fight or just barrel past the attackers once his cell is open.

Team Evil would have had a field day with that one:

Oona: "Cowardly Dragon is the most cowardly dragon Oona ever saw."

Xykon: "That is just not a fair play. If those speedbumbs start doing the smart thing and just flee before me, I REALLY am not going to have any fun here at all."

Redcloak: "I for one am happy we're not fighting that creature, but we better check it wasn't running away from something worse ahead."

Grimview: "Fools always run away from something worse. Something worse is life."

Who do you think TOLD the Scribblers about it?? :smallcool:

Kek.

But more realistically, probably proud of his hustle but careful to make sure he didn't ACTUALLY come close enough to Apotheosis to be a threat to her.

Fair, and probable.

I imagine Tiamat didn't have an hard stance on what to do with the Gates until the Dark One showed up and made the option of sealing the Snarl forever a possibility.

From the way I understand it, Criminals that the Empire wanted dead weren't given any chance to fight back. They were just fed to lions, or executed in some other spectacle. Like, they'd just break your knees or cut your hamstrings if they thought you would actually fight back.

The ones that were allowed to do the fighting were slaves in a more traditional sense, or indeed freemen. And they were more like pro-wrestlers than forced into death matches. Training, maintaining, and equipping gladiators was expensive, both in time and resources, so you didn't want them dying all over the place. It HAPPENED occasionally, especially in the animal fights, but they tried to avoid it as a general rule.

Also very true.

Peelee

2024-01-26, 09:21 AM

For Peelee:
There is (or rather, was) a colosseum in a place called Cumae (not far from Naples, Italy) where the flooding for mock sea battles is well attested by historians. There was also one in Pozzuoli (a city also near Naples, Italy, which also happens to be Sofia Loren's hometown).

The engineering to pull that off in the Big Colosseum in Rome itself would have been impressive. (Then again, Romans were, if nothing else, good engineers).

For all their faults, yeah, damned good engineers. When i went to check if it was as common - or, at least, not-uncommon - as i remember (four years of Latin in high school had the advantage of a lot of Roman culture being taught as well, but the disadvantage of being in high school and thus only getting further and further back kn my memory), i came upon something nes for me - naval battles were actually part of the inauguration celebrations for completing the Colosseum!

Unoriginal

2024-01-26, 09:41 AM

- Dorukan was old, hidden in his fortress, itching for a fight against whoever had killed his lover.

I think this portray Dorukan kind of unfairly.

He wasn't "itch for a fight against whoever had killed his lover" for decades, he tried resurrecting Lirian, and when it didn't work he just kept doing his duty.

If anything his fight with Xykon would probably have gone better for the Wizard if he had been thinking about it for years.

Interesting thing to note: aside from the AD&D creatures lured in by the magic item Nale was after, Dorukan's dungeon seems to have been only filled with beings he hired for the job, before Xykon's takeover.

it's almost comical to see the similarities between Soon's and Girard's gates, when I think about it)

Main difference was that Soon's Gate was protected by dedicated volunteers, while Girard thought you could only get loyalty if you took people from your own bloodline and raised them away from any other influence, including their other relatives.

Kardwill

2024-01-26, 10:30 AM

Before Dorukon's demise but after Girard's, I suspect.
Probably not. Lacking Soon and Kraagor they might not be sanguine about their prospects for handling Calder a second time ...

Lacking Soon and Kraagor AND Lirian (Killed by Xykon before he went after Serini) AND probably Girard (according to Durkon, Girard has been dead for at least 2 decades). So it was probably Serini + Dorukon vs Calder. Not a nice prospect.

I think this portray Dorukan kind of unfairly.

Yeah, I wasn't very fair for Dorukan.

Yet, I really doubt he would have moved for anything else than defending the gate or striking Lirian's murderer. He was focussing on his duty, and wouldn't risk everything just because Serini is now having regrets about the monsters she put in her dungeon.

whitehelm

2024-01-26, 11:19 AM

Yet, I really doubt he would have moved for anything else than defending the gate or striking Lirian's murderer. He was focussing on his duty, and wouldn't risk everything just because Serini is now having regrets about the monsters she put in her dungeon.

Not even that, the only reason he came out of his dungeon was to free Lirian's soul. If he just wanted to get revenge he would've emerged much earlier.

KorvinStarmast

2024-01-26, 01:18 PM

Well, I'm pretty sure that gods secretly being behind cults whenever they could conceivably get away with it was part of 2e lore, but I couldn't tell you where I heard it first. Makes sense to me (from a cosmology and world building perspective) since who needs more competition in the deity business? :smallsmile:

Team Evil would have had a field day with that one:

Oona: "Cowardly Dragon is the most cowardly dragon Oona ever saw."

Xykon: "That is just not a fair play. If those speedbumbs start doing the smart thing and just flee before me, I REALLY am not going to have any fun here at all."

Redcloak: "I for one am happy we're not fighting that creature, but we better check it wasn't running away from something worse ahead."

Grimview: "Fools always run away from something worse. Something worse is life."

Bravo. Well played. :smallsmile:

For all their faults, yeah, damned good engineers. When i went to check if it was as common - or, at least, not-uncommon - as i remember (four years of Latin in high school had the advantage of a lot of Roman culture being taught as well, but the disadvantage of being in high school and thus only getting further and further back kn my memory), i came upon something nes for me - naval battles were actually part of the inauguration celebrations for completing the Colosseum! I may have shared this with you before; when we lived in Italy, some of the highways we drove on (SS 7 for example, up the coast from Pozzuoli to Ostia) were built on top of the old Roman roadbed. Two thousand years and still going strong. Impressive civil engineering. (As was that amazing mortar they developed for their stone bridges, using a certain percentage of lava dust...)

To connect this to the slave sub topic currently ongoing, no few of the Roman roads had some slave labor contributing to their construction.

But most Roman roads were built by the Roman army. There were road building projects that weren’t undertaken by the army. Sometimes local governments, rich locals, or otherwise would pay for a road to be built, and there would be a mix of paid workers and slaves working on them.
And a nice little tidbit here on roman freemen/slaves comparison.

Slaves in Rome might include prisoners of war, sailors captured and sold by pirates, or slaves bought outside Roman territory. In hard times, it was not uncommon for desperate Roman citizens to raise money by selling their children into slavery.

Mordar

2024-01-26, 02:23 PM

Honestly, I don't really have strong feelings about him being imprisoned here, but why oh why is he awake? Either that's Serini not making sure the stasis was working properly, or she actually just left him like that for decades.

So eager to learn this answer. Confident it isn't because he wasn't napped out the whole time.

From what I can tell, most people seem to object mostly to your use of the word "slave". Calder isn't a slave. He's been locked up, presumably on the idea that he'll lash out at anyone who doesn't immediately grovel. But there's nothing forcing him to do anything. Calder is the one who decided to attack. No one in the group had even made a move to attack first, and Roy flat out said they didn't want to fight even, so you can't really argue he's being compelled by the idea that he has to kill first to protect himself because he wasn't in danger.

I'm not saying it's a Good action to have locked him up on the expectation he'll attack anyone who comes by. Because clearly even Sereni has had second thoughts on that. It's just the word "slave" has a much higher level of Evil than "locked in a room, theoretically with time not passing for him", and that's what people are objecting to.

QFT.

I don't like the term 'imprisoned' because that's not all I think it was. It wasn't, IMO, just a case of Calder being properly restrained for a period as just punishment. That is because of what I said above, he's put in a situation where the intent is that he will be forced to fight to the death. But, I'm happy to go with terms other than 'slave', like 'forced to fight' instead - just not words that minimise what is happening, like 'imprisoned'.

Also inaccurate, I think. I'm betting Calder has a ton of ways to escape not only whatever interloper triggers the stasis trap, but also the whole of the dungeon. We do need to see if his metaphorical wings are clipped by other magics, but I have to imagine there are a dozen people reading this thread that could tell me 10 ways Calder could escape from OotS or TE once the stasis is unlocked without even having to refer to a rulebook.

No, you are right. Putting someone in a position where violence is likely probably isn't enough by itself. For slavery you need both deprivation on liberty as well as putting someone in a position where they have no real choice but to do what you want them to (such as fight invaders).

Your leading one gang into another doesn't have the deprivation or freedom element (although it may still be questionable if the second gang got hurt or killed). What Serini has done to Calder and all the others has both elements though - his freedom had been taken from him for an extended period and he is put in a position where he will probably have no real choice except to do the thing Serini wants him to do.

The deprivation of liberty ends the moment the lock-down spells are released. That's pretty generous given the level of bad Calder represents. Once that happens, neither of your two necessary-but-not-sufficient conditions are any longer in placet. I believe the second condition (which should be "forced to do the captors bidding", like it has been for pages and pages, not softened to "no real choice") was never met. If you think any interlopers would automatically (Leroy Jenkins? Jump? One-shot the near Epic dragon?) that's perhaps reflective of the groups you've played with. It doesn't match mine.

Had the Scribble defeated Calder, put him in stasis in a demi-plane of sunshiny rainbows and spirit butterflys so that Calder could never harm another living being, that would seem to qualify as slavery as well under your definition. Freedom removed, will have to do what the captors want him to do (never act in a way to harm another living being). Again, I guess the only options are to either kill Calder outright or let the dragon do whatever it wants because anything else is forcing it to do what the captors want or they are evil slavers.

- M

gbaji

2024-01-26, 03:18 PM

I guess my question on the whole "imprisonment versus enslavement" issue is that to make the argument that Calder is enslaved, you need to have a definition of both of those things, which are both complete and usable, and then show how Calder's condition meets one more than the other.

To me, imprisonment means that one is not free to leave, and is often not in control of their own movements within the prison as well (subject to specific sleeping, eating, exercise locations and times; must be escorted around; etc). Enslavement requires not just a restriction from being able to do/go where you want, but also being forced to do other things for the one who enslaved you (working in the fields, fighting in the arena, performing menial/manual labor, etc).

There is no evidence to support the latter condition. Calder was absolutely imprisoned. He could not leave. Heck. He was in stasis, so he couldn't even move, and was (apparently) barely aware of the passage of time. But nothing indicates that, other than said imprisonment, he was forced to actually do anything at all. He could have mind controlled Sunny. Or not. He could have attacked the Order. Or not.

He had completely freedom to interact with anyone who freed him from his stasis in any way he wished to. Yes. It was Serini's hope that he would attack whomever triggered the stasis release mechanism (kinda the whole point of the Dungeon, in fact), but to the degree that Calder might actually do this, is a function of Calder's own personality and *not* the result of him being forced to do so.

We can argue the same thing for any/all of the monsters in the Final Dungeon. Serini picked powerful violent beings to stock the dungeon with. So yeah, there's a reasonable expectation that their first reaction, upon being released from the stasis traps, is to attack whomever is nearby. But, again, that's a function of their own natures, not something Serini is forcing on them.