Sniper Kender (SA hints, please!)

[Rad]

A player in my group has a kender (Rogue 5/Bard 1/Handler[War of the Lances] 1). She fights with a hoopack (works both as a sling and as a light club) at a distance and is pretty much unhappy with the 1d3 damage that she deals in combat when she cannot add her sneak attack dice. We just seem to be unable to get the rules for hiding while fighting or otherwise adding SA damage without going into melee; she's beginning not to enjoy the combat much and is attached to the character concept (which for this argument means she's not going into melee).
What tactics can she do to become more effective? What equipment should she try to get?
But, most then everything, what are the rules for sniping? (shooting from behind cover & hide again)

Thank you.

[Craig1f]

A player in my group has a kender (Rogue 5/Bard 1/Handler[War of the Lances] 1). She fights with a hoopack (works both as a sling and as a light club) at a distance and is pretty much unhappy with the 1d3 damage that she deals in combat when she cannot add her sneak attack dice. We just seem to be unable to get the rules for hiding while fighting or otherwise adding SA damage without going into melee; she's beginning not to enjoy the combat much and is attached to the character concept (which for this argument means she's not going into melee).
What tactics can she do to become more effective? What equipment should she try to get?
But, most then everything, what are the rules for sniping? (shooting from behind cover & hide again)

Thank you.

The rules for sniping are kind of lame.

You take a single shot as a standard action, and then use your move action to make another hide check, at a -20 penalty. Even if you have cover, enemies can usually tell where the shot came from, and if they see a big rock, they can be pretty sure that the shot came from behind it.

I think that's a lame penalty, so you might talk to your DM about reducing the penalty to a -5 or -10 or something. Maybe create a made-up feat called Sniper so you can do this. Or make up a skill trick (which would limit you to sniping to once an encounter, but would only cost 2 skillpoints)

[Vasdenjas]

Hey Rad, based on the fact that your player like the concept of the character they are playing, I'd suggest making some house-rules to modify existing feats to allow her to make use of her abilities. For example:

Crossbow sniper from PHBII could be modified to Sling Sniper. I don't think this would be unbalanced at all. Additionally, getting the Woodland Archer feat from Races of the Wild would be good too.

As for sniping, the SRD states the rules are:

Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

If you allow it, the Concealed Ambush feat makes this better by lessening the penalty to -10.

Since the character is already level 7, she won't get any of these for a few levels, but depending on your play-style that can be soon, or a ways away, so you may also want to consider letting her retrain one of her existing feats for a small price.

You, or she, may also want to take a look at the Sneak Attacker's Handbook for some general ideas on increasing the times when you can use it, and effectiveness of your SA.

http://coboard.wikia.com/wiki/Sneak_Attacker's_Handbook

If you are unfamiliar with any of the above feats, you can find decent descriptions of them from one of the compiled pdf's on Crystal Keep.

[Tyger]

What about allowing her to retrain as a scout? Their Skirmish damage is pretty much identical to SA, and doesn't require that they be hiding.

[Craig1f]

Concealed Ambush ... good find. That sounds like exactly what she wants.

House-ruling that down to a -5 instead of a -10 would be pretty good too.

You should also try to find a way to get her Hide in Plain Sight.

[Craig1f]

What about allowing her to retrain as a scout? Their Skirmish damage is pretty much identical to SA, and doesn't require that they be hiding.

I don't think that goes along with the character concept from what I've read. Scout is a great class, especially with some creative multiclassing, and the Swift Hunter feat.

[Darrin]

What tactics can she do to become more effective? What equipment should she try to get?


1. Invisibility. A ring or wand would be nice, but potions are cheap, too. Requires standard action to activate, though, so not entirely optimal. Some Ninja levels might also work, but mechanically I'm not all that fond of the class.

2. You could try modifying the tanglefoot bag so that it can be launched via hoopak and denies Dex to entangled creatures.

3. Tome of Battle has several fixes for better flanking. Clarion Commander (requires two feats) provides 10 rounds of free flanking if you make an Intimidate DC 20 check, and there's no way the target can prevent it (I can't recall if it trumps Improved Uncanny Dodge). A one-level dip into SwordSage provides Island of Blades stance (any adjacent ally counts for flanking), some Dex-denail maneuvers, and possibly Cloak of Deception, which renders you invisible for the entire round. Taking the Martial Study/Martial Stance feats might also work for those.

4. Adaptive Flanker from PHBII allows you to designate any other square you threaten as a "flanker". Combined with a reach weapon or Island of Blades, this allows you to flank with yourself. Requires a lot of feats, however (at least 3, I think).

[Person_Man]

A one level dip in Warlock or Dragonfire Adept will give him Hide in Plain Site as a Swift action. Here's how (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352). With Greater Manyshot he can fire (applying Sneak Attack), Hide, and then Move every single round.

[Rad]

Thanks to everybody for the replies!
Unfortunately the DM has a thing against changing anything that has been written on a character sheet, pointing that the game would be much more fun for everybody if she only allowed us to change a couple of things on our build didn't help in the past, so that's a no.

What exactly does one need to hide? That is: I need to make the check at -20 versus what DC? DI think that I need cover or other stuff as per the Hide skill description. Handler 5 gives a form of Hide in Plain Sight, but at our rate that's going to take some long time.

Concealed Ambush sounds good... where is it from? Dragon Magazine?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

What exactly does one need to hide? That is: I need to make the check at -20 versus what DC? DI think that I need cover or other stuff as per the Hide skill description. Handler 5 gives a form of Hide in Plain Sight, but at our rate that's going to take some long time.


You don't make the check against a fixed number. Hide is an opposed check, so you roll a hide check opposed by the opponents spot check.

The -20 penalty can be pretty steep, so you might want to invest in items that can boost your hide modifier.

You need cover or concealment to be able to hide and you cannot hide while being watched as per the hide description.
(Hide in plain site changes this of course)

[Zephyros]

How about 2 feats from Races of the Wild. If I recall correctly they were called Able Sniper and Woodland Sniper?

I have a very important question about Able sniper as it is not worded clearly. Does it makes the penalty to hide after shooting -4? Or does it lessens the penalty by 4?

Woodland Sniper is a tactical feat and I believe works nice for snipers (Ranger/Scout with the swift tracker and manyshot feats especially)

Thanks for answering.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I have a very important question about Able sniper as it is not worded clearly. Does it makes the penalty to hide after shooting -4? Or does it lessens the penalty by 4?

It gives a +4 bonus to hide, effectively making the penalty -16 instead of -20.

[Craig1f]

What exactly does one need to hide? That is: I need to make the check at -20 versus what DC? DI think that I need cover or other stuff as per the Hide skill description. Handler 5 gives a form of Hide in Plain Sight, but at our rate that's going to take some long time.

-20 versus whatever your hide DC is of wherever you're hiding before you take the shot.

So if you hide behind a tree, that gives you cover, and you make a few more adjustments based on distance, illumination, etc from the PHB description of hide. You then roll your hide check, and the monster rolls his spot check. If you pass your hide check, you're hidden. If you have total coverage, you're also hidden.

So now you snipe. Take one shot, and use your move action to hide. You make another opposed roll with a -20 to your hide roll. If you have total coverage, they get to make a spot check against what your hide roll would be if you didn't have total coverage. If they pass, they know where the shot came from, but you're still hidden because you have total coverage, and can take another shot. However, since they sort of know where you are, they can come after you.

[Rad]

Wait, so total cover is an auto-hide? That would make sniping incredibly easy since you'd completely bypass the hide at -20 roll just by having a tree close to you!

[Kizara]

A few tips for playing against SA as sniper:

Early:

Its all about the harrass, use your great range to your advantage to out-cs him and harrass whenever possible. Learn how to properly animation cancel, and you will find that you actually have quite an effective harrass.

Obviously you didn't get scatter early, as that's moronic. So if he tries to fight you out, even under lvl 1 cloud early, just sit there and hope for headshot procs. He will doubtless end up having to run, and that's alot of free hits for you.

Watch out for his initiate though, if he has a stunner ally, stun + blink + cloud= gg sniper. If this becomes too much of an issue for you, ask for an ally to babysit you.

By 6, if he's still in lane, you should have a set of wards you've chickened to yourself to counter his ult. Continue as before, although if he doesnt have much hp regen (out of tangos, etc) you may want to spam your ult at him so he goes away and lets you freefarm.

Mid-game, try to stay near wards as much as you can and get your allies to help babysit you to try to continue your farm. Get a blink or BoTs first (duh) and just try to outmanuver him.

Late game, hopefully you have gotten enough farm and you can stand up to him. A butterfly is great here, as the evasion really helps counter his dps.


It's not a fun matchup for you, so I hope I've helped, even a bit. Honestly, if you think they are going to be running SA, I suggest you run a different carry. PotM would be a nice choice.

[Sleet]

Have you seen Races of Ansalon, published just a couple of months ago? It increases kender base speed to 30, for what it's worth.

Additionally, there are some other kender racial weapons in that book, some of them ranged that do more than 1d3 damage (I've also played a kender rogue/handler with a hoopak, and without SA damage it's really lame.)

[Vasdenjas]

Here's how it seems to work:



HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

SPOT (WIS)
Check: The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen.

Condition Penalty
Per 10 feet of distance –1

Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

So this character could do a sniping sneak attack from 30' away. They would be in cover, or total cover. I feel the fact that they are popping out of the cover to shoot negates the sentence that states "total concealment usually obviates the need for a Hide check". So in that case, the DM would allow either a reactive Spot check, or require a move action to make the Spot on their next turn, target DC of your hide check.

This can be enhanced with the Complete Adventurer level 1 Assassin/Ranger/Sorc/Wiz spell Sniper's Shot, which allows your next ranged attack to apply precision damage regardless of range (get a wand and UMD). This would bump up the Spot check penalty to great amounts! Additionally, since the hide requires a move action, as your standard action you could use Manyshot, and hit with a few arrows, based on your BaB.

[Person_Man]

You know, arguing about Sniping rules is like arguing about how many angels can fit on the head of pin. It's not as if it really matters. When you Snipe, you only make one attack. That's just not a viable tactic.

A mid level Rogue should easily have access to Greater Invisibility or something similar, from a friend or from a Wand. Or you can just buy a Ring of Blinking. Or you can buy a Wand of Armor Lock or some similar low level spell that makes enemies susceptible to Sneak Attack.

[Craig1f]

Wait, so total cover is an auto-hide? That would make sniping incredibly easy since you'd completely bypass the hide at -20 roll just by having a tree close to you!

It's auto-hide in the sense that they can't see you, but they might still know where you are. I'm not sure if you automatically catch them flatfooted every time though.

[Vasdenjas]

You know, arguing about Sniping rules is like arguing about how many angels can fit on the head of pin. It's not as if it really matters.

Except for the fact that the OP specifically asked about it.
Your methods are, beyond doubt, more effective combat-wise. However, if the player wishes to focus on something else, that's their choice, so the least they can do is be informed about how it functions so they can use it proplerly, or choose not to.

[Rad]

Thank you for the feedback again!

Our group has very little equipment and the most characters are level 6, so Imp. Invisibility is still on the wish list. Also It would be nice if the characters could be efficient without needing a wizard buffing since that uses up rounds... plus the fact that our last combat lasted about 10 rounds.

The reprint on Races of Ansalon is goos since it is good news for kenders (+10' speed :smallsmile: ); I noticed that they reprinted the Handler PrC as well; do any of you know whether it is the same as the one published earlier?

Any advice on good equipment (Ring of Blinking?) in the off-chance that we make it to a city?
Thank you again :smallredface:

[Wagadodo]

The only thing I noticed that was different was Base skill points went from 6 in the orginal to 4 in the Races of Anaslon.

Just remind the character at fifth level handler they will be hide in plain sight, which will be come in handy in popping people for those sneak attacks.