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Rfkannen
2024-01-24, 12:17 AM
I want to play someone who is holy and punches people. I was thinking a self buffer who uses divine magic could be fun, but I just want to be somehow related to holy celestial stuff, and I want to punch things.

What are my best options? Level 5, unlimited splats..

Troacctid
2024-01-24, 12:21 AM
Seems like you'd be interested in the Sacred Fist prestige class.

MornShine
2024-01-24, 01:10 AM
Consider also the Gauntlets of Blood-Lord, particularly the CDiv version over the MiC version.

Holy Puncher does well with Touch spells, after all.

EDIT:

Also there's a feat for Paladin/Monk level stacking, that doesn't actually require monk levels (just IUS). Heavy Armor and Punching, anyone?

Maat Mons
2024-01-24, 02:36 AM
If you like psionics, an Ardent with Tashalatora seems to fit the bill.

Rfkannen
2024-01-24, 03:13 AM
a sacred fist would be fun! are those any good? I am not finding Gauntlets of Blood-Lord, what book is that from?

I was not thinking psionics, but could be interested! is it good for the self buffing part? What gives it the holy part?

Maat Mons
2024-01-24, 05:21 AM
Psionics, in general, can be very good at self-buffing. Honestly though, I’ve never played an Ardent, so I can’t vouch for how well that class is. For making the Ardent holy, I think Creation, Freedom, and Life would be suitable Mantles.

If you go for Sacred Fist, make sure to have a discussion with your DM about the Code of Conduct. As written, you lose all your class features if you “knowingly carry” a weapon. Since magic staffs can be used as mundane quarterstaffs, those are off limits to you. So is any magic item with “gauntlet” in the name.

Anthrowhale
2024-01-24, 07:09 AM
The biggest issue with Sacred Fist is that you can't use weapons, and there are some nice magical weapons out there. But, if you already plan on this as a character concept it's a solid gish choice.

It looks like Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist <x> is earliest entry.

Note that Sacred Fist doesn't advance spellcasting according to table on some levels but does according to text. Text trumps table by the rules, but it's worth discussing with your DM.

For divine gish types, you may also consider Ordained Champion instead, primarily for Channel Spell at Ordained Champion 3. This is probably an "instead" choice because you are losing another level of spellcasting.

Self-buffing is best done with persistent spell, for which the Planning Domain (for Extend Spell), Persistent Spell, DMM[Persistent Spell], and possibly (depending on DM interpretation of "fixed range") Ocular Spell are important feats. A common trick is to take something like the Destroy Undead Cleric ACF and then pick up a level of Sacred Exorcist later. Sacred Exorcist is also decent gish class, so something like:

Human Cloistered Cleric 1[Destroy Undead ACF, Planning[Extend Spell], Undeath[Extra Turning], Knowledge->Knowledge Devotion]/Monk 2/Cloistered Cleric 3/Sacred Fist 3/Sacred Exorcist 1/Sacred Fist 7/Sacred Exorcist 3 with feats:
1. Persistent Spell
Human: DMM[Persistent Spell]
Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 2: Combat Reflexes
3. Intuitive Attack
6. Combat Casting
9,12,15,18. Extra Turning (possibly Ocular Spell instead once).

That leaves you with BAB+17, cleric 18 casting, and wisdom to AC, attack, and damage.

A few notes:
1) It's good to have access to the spell Greater Mighty Wallop. This is mostly easily done by a friendly wizard, but you could swap Undeath for Spell to gain access natively.
2) You might consider Strongheart Halfling instead of Human so that you can pick up Yondalla's Sense for Wisdom ton initiative. At high levels with Greater Mighty Wallop, you don't even sacrifice damage.
3) Divine Favor is a good starter persistent spell at level 1.
4) At medium-high levels Polymorph[War Troll] is pretty good.
5) This build may be to high-powered for some tables. Don't break the game/fun.

Inevitability
2024-01-24, 07:14 AM
Another part of Sacred Fist (it's in Complete Divine btw) to talk over with your DM is their casting advancement: the rules text and class table give contradictory answers to the question of how many levels the class advances casting.

For what it's worth, the class is considered to be quite good but not overpowered if it gives full casting: four qualification feats is a very steep entry barrier. A monk 2 / cleric 4 / sacred fist 10 can get most prereqs as bonus feats but is down a feat and 8th-level spells compared to a regular cleric 6 / PrC 10, and Divine Power can make up for the latter's BAB disadvantage.

Troacctid
2024-01-24, 09:59 AM
Even if you don't use Sacred Fist, there is a rule in Complete Arcane that allows you to deliver touch spells with an unarmed strike instead of a touch attack if you have Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat. This means that even a "normal" cleric build can channel spells like Awaken Sin or Lastai's Caress (if you want some really thematic options), or just your basic Inflict Wounds/Harm/Slay Living type stuff.

Anthrowhale
2024-01-24, 10:54 AM
Even if you don't use Sacred Fist, there is a rule in Complete Arcane that allows you to deliver touch spells with an unarmed strike instead of a touch attack if you have Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat. This means that even a "normal" cleric build can channel spells like Awaken Sin or Lastai's Caress (if you want some really thematic options), or just your basic Inflict Wounds/Harm/Slay Living type stuff.

Nice, so Ordained Champion is irrelevant here.

Kalkra
2024-01-24, 10:56 AM
I'll make an obligatory mention of the fact that per the Rules Compendium you make all of the attacks from Chill Touch when you cast the spell, making it the best way to deliver unarmed strikes. Most tables don't play like that, though.

Also, if you're a Druid and Dragon Mag content is allowed, you might want to look into Beast Strike, which lets you add your claw or slam damage to your unarmed strikes. Of particular note is the spell Claws of the Bear from Spell Compendium, which gives you a claw attack that deals damage equal to your unarmed strike damage, but even if you're just wildshaping it's a nice damage boost.

If you're planning on punching a lot of evil creatures, there's the Touch of Golden Ice feat from BoED, which makes your unarmed attacks (and handshakes) do Dex damage to evil creatures.

Saintheart
2024-01-24, 11:18 AM
If you're planning on punching a lot of evil creatures, there's the Touch of Golden Ice feat from BoED, which makes your unarmed attacks (and handshakes) do Dex damage to evil creatures.

Dex of 1d6+the opponent's CHA, which is very nice. And since Exalted feats are explicitly (Su) abilities, Spell Resistance does not apply, and even incorporeals are not automatically immune to it.

Wildstag
2024-01-24, 11:34 AM
The biggest issue with Sacred Fist is that you can't use weapons, and there are some nice magical weapons out there. But, if you already plan on this as a character concept it's a solid gish choice.

It looks like Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist <x> is earliest entry.

If Mystic Ranger (Dr 336) is allowed a Monk1/MysticRanger4 could enter the class at level 6. Also a Monk1/Paladin4 could...

Actually, adding Ordained Champion would be a fun way to add onto a Paladin or Cleric Sacred Fist.

Morphic tide
2024-01-24, 11:55 AM
Another thing for Monk/Paladin is Ascetic Knight, as it makes the two co-progress Smite Evil and Unarmed Strike damage for full punch progression. While this is only one shift for a whole feat, it's still worth mentioning.

Prime32
2024-01-24, 08:18 PM
Another thing for Monk/Paladin is Ascetic Knight, as it makes the two co-progress Smite Evil and Unarmed Strike damage for full punch progression. While this is only one shift for a whole feat, it's still worth mentioning.
There's also the Argent Fist PrC from Faiths of Eberron, which gets an upgraded version of Ascetic Knight and the ability to maintain monk AC bonuses in armour. Combos well with the Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium, which lets a paladin use Wis for things that would use Cha.


Also, if you're a Druid and Dragon Mag content is allowed, you might want to look into Beast Strike, which lets you add your claw or slam damage to your unarmed strikes. Of particular note is the spell Claws of the Bear from Spell Compendium, which gives you a claw attack that deals damage equal to your unarmed strike damage, but even if you're just wildshaping it's a nice damage boost.Dragon #358 also has the Eldritch Claws feat which grants you two claw attacks dealing unarmed strike + eldritch blast damage, making for a very powerful Beast Strike. Or I guess you could just use eldritch glaive and channel its attacks through unarmed strikes.
It's a little underwhelming outside of gestalt, but Enlightened SpiritCM is a PrC with easy entry requirements which grants warlocks a few more holy abilities. Or at higher levels there's the incarnum blast invocation from Magic of Incarnum, which lets your eldritch blast daze living creatures of opposed alignments; if you're using other incarnum stuff then you can also gain bonus damage against such creatures and hinder their ability to use incarnum a little.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2024-01-24, 09:52 PM
Honestly, a Cleric with PrCs that don't lose spellcasting, with a Monk's Belt, is probably the 'best' build for doing this.

Cast (Greater) Luminous Armor every day to wear armor made of light and still benefit from the Monk AC bonus granted by the belt. You may even be able to put Magic Vestment on that. Get a Rod of Bodily Restoration to fix the Str damage sacrifice that occurs when that ends. Use a lesser metamagic rod of extend on that and other hour/level buffs.

DMM: Persist buffs like Divine Power, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and even (Greater) Visage of the Deity for half-celestial traits.

Use Anyspell to DMM: Persist a Wraithstrike starting out. Use a 3rd level Pearl of Power to use Anyspell again to DMM: Persist a Shield spell, and also cast Magic Vestment on it if possible. Later use Greater Anyspell to DMM: Persist a Draconic Polymorph into a Firbolg or War Troll or similar. Use a 6th level Pearl of Power to use Greater Anyspell again to put Greater Mighty Wallop on your unarmed strike, or have an arcane caster in the party do that for you. Greater Magic Weapon your unarmed strike as well.

Trade your turn undead for rebuke dragons, which can still power divine metamagic, and take Sacred Exorcist to also have turn undead for two pools of turning attempts to spend on that. I'd probably start out Cloistered Cleric 3/ Church Inquisitor 2, trade your free knowledge domain for knowledge devotion, start with two flaws for two extra feats to have DMM: Persist. Definitely get the Spell domain, maybe go with Magic for your other one. Consider taking Divine Oracle 4 for evasion and uncanny dodge, use the Frog God's Fane in CS to get its skill focus prerequisite for 2k gp during downtime instead of spending a feat on it. Dip one level of Sacred Exorcist as soon as possible. Consider dipping Seeker of the Misty Isle for the travel domain, dip Ruathar if necessary for the class skills to do that. Contemplative is a good class to finish the build with, and/or just more of the prestige classes you've already taken.

Rebel7284
2024-01-26, 01:00 AM
Honestly, a Cleric with PrCs that don't lose spellcasting, with a Monk's Belt, is probably the 'best' build for doing this.

<snip>

Use Anyspell to DMM: Persist a Wraithstrike starting out. Use a 3rd level Pearl of Power to use Anyspell again to DMM: Persist a Shield spell, and also cast Magic Vestment on it if possible. Later use Greater Anyspell to DMM: Persist a Draconic Polymorph into a Firbolg or War Troll or similar. Use a 6th level Pearl of Power to use Greater Anyspell again to put Greater Mighty Wallop on your unarmed strike, or have an arcane caster in the party do that for you. Greater Magic Weapon your unarmed strike as well.


Sadly, this is correct. D&D is a system in which a better caster can ultimately fight better than a dedicated fighter (barring dead magic zones and such)

With that said, I don't think you can persist Anyspell's spells with Divine Metamagic as Anyspell explicitly prepares the spell as an arcane spell. There are workarounds, clearly, (Southern Magician, Alternate Spell Source, etc.)

Whether or not Sacred Fist is any good does depend heavily on that casting progression ruling. I think it's not really worth it you give up MORE casting progression.

Some things to consider:
Classes
- Ruby Knight Vindicator: Excellent Crusader Maneuvers and delayed damage pool + Divine casting + Extra actions starting at level 7 in the class makes RKV one of the best "Divine Gish" classes. Nothing explicitly about using your firsts, but nothing preventing you either.
- Pious Templar: If you want to use the Paladin spell list, this gives it to you faster/fewer class levels. Still weaker than high level Cleric spells, of course.
- Ordained Champion: Channel area and ray spells into your punches. Swift action casting for War Domain spells is nifty too. Can get you extra feats.
- Sacred Exorcist: one level can give you an extra turn undead pool if you start with a different type of turning, allowing you to double up on Divine Metamagic

Feats
- Superior Unarmed Strike

Races
- Illumian: Has a sigil for getting your bonus spells from Strength
- Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale: 3 levels in Monstrous Humanoid, but no level adjustment! Large size right off the bat for notably bigger punches.

Some other thoughts
- If you are willing to be a _fallen_ celestial
Duskblade 3/Monk 2/Ur Priest 2/Sacred (Profane?) Fist 10/Whatever 5
fast progression cleric casting from Ur Priest and extra levels to play with before Sacred Fist can be very powerful once it gets going.
- Do you actually want to get in enemies' faces to punch them? What about optimizing the spell Blood Wind to punch anyone in "Close" range instead? Difficult to persist this one, but Quicken might be easier or something like Craft Continent Spell.

Alea
2024-01-31, 12:54 PM
Even assuming you want better native unarmed strike damage than monk’s belt offers, you’re still better off with just Superior Unarmed Strike than going with sacred fist.



Level

Cleric
& Sup. US²

Sacred Fist¹

Sacred Fist¹
& Sup. US²


Sacred Fist¹
& Sup. US²
& monk’s belt³


1st–5th1d31d61d61d6
6th–7th1d61d61d81d8
8th1d81d61d82d6
9th–11th1d81d81d102d6
12th1d101d81d102d8
13th–15th1d101d102d62d8
16th–20th2d61d102d62d10


A monk’s belt pulls the sacred fist damage out a little further, but that’s a fairly pricey item and you’re not getting its best benefits. You wind up with +3½ to +5½ damage, which isn’t bad, and if you’re also scaling your size—and you should be—it adds up to a fair amount. But it’s still just damage.

Sacred flames and inner armor are nice buffs, but they don’t have a ton of uptime. Blindsense is nice-to-have, but you’ll still want to upgrade it to superior senses sooner or later.

In the end, the real draw is the full BAB—but 3 spellcasting levels and 2 feats⁴ is just not worth +3 BAB, +3½ to +5½ damage per attack, and those minor buffs. If you can DMM (Persist) divine power, you have full BAB anyway and then there’s just no comparison (even if you were a sacred fist you’d still want to have divine power if possible, since you still have a minimum five levels of ¾ BAB). If your unarmed strikes are (effectively) Colossal, the damage disparity is +27, which is a much larger number, but spellcasting really is that good.

And besides, you can probably do something better with those levels—like the ruby knight vindicator Rebel7284 mentioned. Or just any kind of cleric-progressing prestige class—with Superior Unarmed Strike covering unarmed strike damage, divine power covering BAB, and unarmed strikes being natively capable of delivering touch spells, you don’t really need any particular “gish” features.

Honestly, though, my inclination here would be to avoid going too hard on spells, just because it’s so samey with every other cleric. Do something different, like a divine feat-based Cha-SAD build, or maybe a holy barbarian brawler, or whatever. There’s a lot of options that I think are more interesting, though they’re definitely less powerful.

My personal favorite is a rage-cycling berserker fueling divine feats:


Berserker strength from Player’s Handbook II turns on when you are below 5 hp/level, and turns off when you are healed above that threshold.
Ettercap Berserker from Unapproachable East gives you Constitution when you have rage—and berserker strength explicitly turns on things that turn on during rage—but gaining Constitution is not “healing” so those hps won’t end berserker strength.
If your max hp is such that it’s below the threshold normally, but Ettercap Berserker brings you above it, any healing at all ends berserker rage, causing you to lose Ettercap Berserker’s Constitution—and thus fall below the threshold again and restart berserker strength. New rage every time you are healed for any amount. Fast healing, martial spirit or aura of triumph (Tome of Battle), lots of great options.
But the best—highly cheesy—option, bar none, is Troll Blooded from Dragon vol. 319. Not only does it give you fast healing you want to get a new rage every round, regeneration means you don’t often lose your regular hp, ensuring you stay above the threshold so long as you have Ettercap Berserker.
Permanent, cycling rage is nice, but the really neat stuff comes from Raging Luck—a temporary action point each rage—and things that use action points. In this case, Heroic Champion, which lets you use an action point to activate a divine feat instead of turn undead.
Raging monk from Dragon vol. 310 gets rage “as barbarian,” so ask your DM if it can use berserker strength, or failing that, can advance berserker strength you already have. This will allow you to get some of the feats you want, and also helps keeping your max hp below the threshold.
Chaos Rage from Dragon vol. 326 is “Practiced Spellcaster but for rage,” and will allow dipping things like cleric, crusader, paladin, etc. to help make this all come together. Levels beyond Chaos Rage are probably best handled by champion of Gwynharwyf, since those stack with barbarian levels for rage and should advance berserker strength. But champion of Gwynharwyf is super on-brand anyway, since it’s already a divine barbarian prestige class, and its spellcasting-in-a-rage is relevant to our interests (look into getting some domains for some better spells, though). Otherwise you’ll have to ask your DM how—and if—prestige classes with more rages per day stack with berserker strength.

Combine this with Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, etc. and you’re in business. It takes a ton of feats (Chaos Rage, Ettercap Berserker, Toughness, Troll Blooded, Raging Luck, Heroic Channeling, plus whatever divine feats you actually want to use, and you still want Superior Unarmed Strike somewhere), so it’s best in a game with generous feat rules, like flaws or, even better, E6.


Footnotes


Assuming entry into sacred fist as a monk 1st/cleric 5th, and that the 1 monk level and 10 sacred fist levels are the only levels that progress unarmed strike damage.
Superior Unarmed Strike is not available until 6th (since it requires BAB +3 and none of these will have that before 6th, and you can’t get get it as a bonus feat).
Monk’s belt isn’t available until 6th (since it costs 12k), but realistically isn’t affordable before 8th or so (when it becomes less than half your total WBL). For comparison purposes, putting it at 8th. That’s still an aggressive purchasing schedule.
On Combat Casting and Stunning Fist—yes, you’ll get Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, but that’s a bonus feat you could have used on something else. Leaving Combat Reflexes out of the count since that’s an actually-good feat, though probably not one a puncher is particularly interested in itself.

Anthrowhale
2024-01-31, 05:44 PM
Even assuming you want better native unarmed strike damage than monk’s belt offers, you’re still better off with just Superior Unarmed Strike than going with sacred fist.
This is a great analysis. I think there's a small bug though---Sacred Fist requires BAB+4, which is most naturally entered via Monk 2/Cleric 4. That makes the Sacred Fist column top out at 2d6 and hypothetical Sacred Fist + Monk's Belt top out at 2d8. I also believe that your last column should top out at 2d10 since SUS is Monk+4 and Monk's Belt is Monk+5, so you end up with Monk 21 unarmed strike using Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 10/<any 4>.

Alea
2024-01-31, 07:56 PM
This is a great analysis. I think there's a small bug though---Sacred Fist requires BAB+4, which is most naturally entered via Monk 2/Cleric 4. That makes the Sacred Fist column top out at 2d6 and hypothetical Sacred Fist + Monk's Belt top out at 2d8. I also believe that your last column should top out at 2d10 since SUS is Monk+4 and Monk's Belt is Monk+5, so you end up with Monk 21 unarmed strike using Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 10/<any 4>.

The entry is not a bug—I simply do not take seriously the suggestion that anyone should ever use, or consider, non-fractional BAB. That’s a feature.

But good point about the monk’s belt; I misremembered that as +4. Will fix.

Anthrowhale
2024-01-31, 08:00 PM
The entry is not a bug—I simply do not take seriously the suggestion that anyone should ever use, or consider, non-fractional BAB. That’s a feature.
Even with fractional BAB, you require Monk 2/Cleric 4 or Monk 1/Cleric 5 for entry. You can see this by noting that Monk and Cleric are both 3/4 BAB and a pure Cleric or Monk reaches BAB+4 at character level 6.

Alea
2024-01-31, 08:04 PM
Even with fractional BAB, you require Monk 2/Cleric 4 or Monk 1/Cleric 5 for entry. You can see this by noting that Monk and Cleric are both 3/4 BAB and a pure Cleric or Monk reaches BAB+4 at character level 6.

...wow, that’s some serious egg on my face. Sorry about that, I even double-checked it and misread the table. I blame the two-year-old. ⌐.⌐ :P

Anyway, fixed it. The difference that the extra level from monk’s belt makes is pretty significant, and I remembered to consider the effects of size—6d8 damage vs. 12d8 damage is pretty significant. Not 3 spellcasting levels’ significant, not really, but at least you feel like you’re getting something for that investment. But that’s only with sacred fist and Superior Unarmed Strike and monk’s belt.

Anthrowhale
2024-01-31, 09:20 PM
...wow, that’s some serious egg on my face. Sorry about that, I even double-checked it and misread the table. I blame the two-year-old. ⌐.⌐ :P
No worries, it's nice to have an analysis laid out like this.

6d8 damage vs. 12d8 damage is pretty significant.
8d6, I believe.

Not 3 spellcasting levels’ significant, not really, but at least you feel like you’re getting something for that investment. But that’s only with sacred fist and Superior Unarmed Strike and monk’s belt.
I'd only really consider Sacred Fist if there's no spellcasting loss, and even then it's a choice for flavor rather than power. The damage of your top end Sacred Fist seems adequate though---6x 12d8+5 ~= 354 puts a decent dent in most enemies. Overall, it seems like a viable flavor choice.

Alea
2024-02-01, 12:30 AM
8d6, I believe.

Yup, misread my own table this time. Pretty inconsequential this time, though (27 vs. 28).


I'd only really consider Sacred Fist if there's no spellcasting loss, and even then it's a choice for flavor rather than power. The damage of your top end Sacred Fist seems adequate though---6x 12d8+5 ~= 354 puts a decent dent in most enemies. Overall, it seems like a viable flavor choice.

Yeah, 354 damage is “enough” a lot of the time, the issue is actually landing those attacks, which means getting within melee range first. A sacred fist is doing better than many there, but it’s still an uphill battle against all of the everything high-level enemies have to play with.

Rebel7284
2024-02-01, 02:02 AM
If you do go for a Barbarian entry rather than Monk, consider City Brawler Barbarian from Dragon Magazine #349



Benefit: You gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, as well as the effects of Two-Weapon Fighting feat when fighting unarmed.

At 6th level, you gain the effects of Improved Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed and at 11th level you gain the effects of Greater Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed.

You only take a -2 penalty when using improvised weapons (instead of the usual -4 penalty).


Really just two bonus feats at first level, including explicit permission to TWF with Unarmed Strike alone is nifty. Can also be combined with other Alternate Class Features pretty easily (Pounce is nice)

holbita
2024-02-01, 07:34 AM
Really just two bonus feats at first level, including explicit permission to TWF with Unarmed Strike alone is nifty. Can also be combined with other Alternate Class Features pretty easily (Pounce is nice)

Some may say that you still need two different weapons to be able to TWF, and that how this is supposed to work is that you are using a gauntlet and unarmed strikes, or any other "unarmed weapon".

This is a particularly reasonable reading if you realize that it requires that you are unarmed for you to get the benefit of the feats, and that since improvised weapons are "objects not designed to be weapons" and an unarmed attack is "An attack made with no weapon in hand", that would mean you are still considered fighting unarmed. Meaning that you can TWF with 2 improvised weapons, or mixing unarmed strike and improvised weapons.

This is how we make this variant work on our table.

Also... I don't see it mentioned yet, but OA Shaman is literally this, full divine caster with unarmed strike progression, you can even try to convince your DM to let Sacred Fist progress Shaman unarmed damage and enter it at high level.

Alea
2024-02-01, 09:29 AM
Some may say that you still need two different weapons to be able to TWF, and that how this is supposed to work is that you are using a gauntlet and unarmed strikes, or any other "unarmed weapon".

This is a particularly reasonable reading if you realize that it requires that you are unarmed for you to get the benefit of the feats, and that since improvised weapons are "objects not designed to be weapons" and an unarmed attack is "An attack made with no weapon in hand", that would mean you are still considered fighting unarmed. Meaning that you can TWF with 2 improvised weapons, or mixing unarmed strike and improvised weapons.

This is how we make this variant work on our table.

Oooooorrrr... you could just admit and accept that they made a mistake—which they also copped to in the FAQ—and ignore the stupid RAW that blocks using the two-weapon fighting special attack with a pair of unarmed strikes. It adds nothing to your game and is explicitly not what they meant to write, even if they wrote it, so implementing it as-written even to the detriment of your game is... a surprising choice.

holbita
2024-02-01, 12:24 PM
Well... it's mostly for balance reasons, the idea of a weapon that you only need to enchant once for it to apply to main and off-hand, that weapon counting for power attack even when used off-hand and the many MANY ways to abuse unarmed strike felt like they made most other options irrelevant.

That being said... we do try to keep ourselves at a lower power level most games, so something like this can be relevant... when we play at higher power level we find that yeah... this would not be relevant at all, but you are also not going to play this type of build. So applying it RAW just feels appropiate to us.

But to be honest, if someone were to bring it on a session zero when we are agreeing on power level of the party and it feels appropiate we would probably allow it.

SirNibbles
2024-02-02, 07:24 PM
If Mystic Ranger (Dr 336) is allowed a Monk1/MysticRanger4 could enter the class at level 6. Also a Monk1/Paladin4 could...

Actually, adding Ordained Champion would be a fun way to add onto a Paladin or Cleric Sacred Fist.

Ranger can choose Improved Unarmed Strike as a combat style bonus feat, so straight Mystic Ranger would probably be best.




Beast-Wrestling Style
Some rangers eschew weapons and fight with their bare hands. Unlike the graceful style of the monk, the beast wrestler relies on his brute strength to subdue his foes. Originally practiced by rangers living in marshy areas to capture and move dangerous animals (such as crocodiles) without harming them, some adventurous rangers apply these techniques to more exotic foes. Most beast wrestlers choose animal or magical beast as their first favored enemy.

Combat Style (2nd): Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Combat Style (6th): Improved Grapple
Combat Style Mastery (11th): Stunning Fist



Dragon Magazine #326, page 97

Wildstag
2024-02-03, 03:24 AM
Ranger can choose Improved Unarmed Strike as a combat style bonus feat, so straight Mystic Ranger would probably be best.




Beast-Wrestling Style
Some rangers eschew weapons and fight with their bare hands. Unlike the graceful style of the monk, the beast wrestler relies on his brute strength to subdue his foes. Originally practiced by rangers living in marshy areas to capture and move dangerous animals (such as crocodiles) without harming them, some adventurous rangers apply these techniques to more exotic foes. Most beast wrestlers choose animal or magical beast as their first favored enemy.

Combat Style (2nd): Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Combat Style (6th): Improved Grapple
Combat Style Mastery (11th): Stunning Fist



Dragon Magazine #326, page 97


Yes, but you don't get Stunning Fist until level 9 (taking it by qualifying for it) or level 11 (through Combat Style). Neither is really sufficient for early leveling, and Mystic Ranger doesn't really care about that lost spell-casting level, especially since they cap at 5th level spells at 10.