Looking npc classes or PC classes that make good NPC classes

[Itseasytosee]

Hey everyone, long time lurker, first time poster.

I'm a somewhat recent dnd 3.5 GM, and I'm looking to build a list of classes that are suitable for NPCs. Ideally classes that have power level equal to or less than the likes of the adept. NPC classes as well as low power PC classes are welcome. I would prefer to avoid PC classes that require a lot of micromanagement, but anything at or below the level of something like the marshal should be fine.

Currently my list includes:
Adept
Commoner
Expert
Magewright (Eberron)
Marshal (Miniatures handbook)
Nobel
Warrior
Commoner

Quality homebrew suggestions are also welcome.

[Gnaeus]

Hey everyone, long time lurker, first time poster.

I'm a somewhat recent dnd 3.5 GM, and I'm looking to build a list of classes that are suitable for NPCs. Ideally classes that have power level equal to or less than the likes of the adept. NPC classes as well as low power PC classes are welcome. I would prefer to avoid PC classes that require a lot of micromanagement, but anything at or below the level of something like the marshal should be fine.

Currently my list includes:
Adept
Commoner
Expert
Magewright (Eberron)
Marshal (Miniatures handbook)
Nobel
Warrior
Commoner

Quality homebrew suggestions are also welcome.

OK, you definitely want the gleaner, which is the druid version of adept or magewright. https://web.archive.org/web/20170815034614/https://www.giantitp.com/articles/gk7uKJeF296jRcx1NJw.html

Otherwise: Tier 5
Marshal: Tier 5
Truenamer: Tier 5
Sohei: Tier 5
Hexblade: Tier 5
Monk: Tier 5
Battle Dancer: Tier 5
Divine Mind: Tier 5
Mountebank: Tier 5
Samurai (OA): Tier 5
Dragon Shaman: Tier 5
Magewright: Tier 5
Swashbuckler: Tier 5
Soulborn: Tier 5
Noble: Tier 5
Knight: Tier 5
Soulknife: Tier 5
Expert: Tier 5
Samurai (CW): Tier 5

Tier 6
Aristocrat: Tier 6
Warrior: Tier 6
Commoner: Tier 6

All of those are power level <= Adept. I'd avoid Truenamer as it is complex and needs opti fu and wbl to function. But otherwise I think thats your list or close to.

Or pushing the envelope, the following classes were also voted below the Adept in tier voting:
Spellthief: Tier 4
Paladin: Tier 4
Ranger: Tier 4
Ninja: Tier 4
Savant: Tier 4
Fighter: Tier 4

Those are closer. Whether Adept < or > something like Paladin depends a bit on whether Animate Dead is on the table and whether there are nerfs to Polymorph. Probably table dependent, level dependent and arguable.

[Inevitability]

Barbarians are pretty simple to build NPCs with and require a lot fewer finnicky build decisions than fighters. In combat you rage t1, charge in, and then either full attack or charge every next turn, easy as pie.

Scouts may or may not fit your definition of 'micromanagement': an archer scout can just grab some basic bow feats and then move+attack every round, and they're rather weak without shenanigans to give them swift action movement or 10 ft. steps.

[Biggus]

In addition to the above, the Healer class is a possibility. It's a full caster but all it does is heal so it's pretty simple to run. It's certainly not much good as a PC class...



Or pushing the envelope, the following classes were also voted below the Adept in tier voting:
Spellthief: Tier 4
Paladin: Tier 4
Ranger: Tier 4
Ninja: Tier 4
Savant: Tier 4
Fighter: Tier 4

It used to be, in the latest version of the tier list it's dropped to the top of tier 5. Not that any of the above classes are game-breaking unless you try very hard to make them so.

The Expert has also moved, from low tier 5 to high tier 6. Again, not that it matters much.

Not very relevant to the current discussion, but while we're on the subject the Warmage has moved up an entire tier (from mid-high tier 3 to mid-high tier 2), not sure how that happened.


Barbarians are pretty simple to build NPCs with and require a lot fewer finnicky build decisions than fighters. In combat you rage t1, charge in, and then either full attack or charge every next turn, easy as pie.


If you don't want them to be too strong, just don't give them the Lion Totem ACF...

[Telonius]

Are these just classes for random people the PCs will interact with, or are you intending to mine the list for combatants? "Simple-to-use, not-too-powerful out of the box" classes are a little bit different than "objectively weak" classes. For example, Warlock is a decently strong class, especially if you optimize it. But if you're just going to throw a no-frills Warlock at the party and do nothing but plink away with Eldritch Blast each round, it's not too terribly threatening; and it's certainly easy to use.

[Gnaeus]

It used to be, in the latest version of the tier list it's dropped to the top of tier 5. Not that any of the above classes are game-breaking unless you try very hard to make them so.

The Expert has also moved, from low tier 5 to high tier 6. Again, not that it matters much.

Not very relevant to the current discussion, but while we're on the subject the Warmage has moved up an entire tier (from mid-high tier 3 to mid-high tier 2), not sure how that happened.


You may be correct. Cite please? I'm looking at the retiering the classes thread and attached spreadsheet. And the associated Retiering NPC thread still had Adept as mid 4.

The only tier 5 rating for Adept of which I am aware is the pathfinder one, which is both a weaker adept and stronger competition.

OK, I see Troacctid had an updated post which cited 2023. But I don't see how adept dropped half a tier without either a new discussion thread or a new spreadsheet. And still cites the original Adept thread, and the main thread ended in 2020 (with my post last). Given the lack of data and the obviously wildly incorrect result, I will maintain Adepts place over the bottom half of T4.

[thorr-kan]

I've collected the following list over the years.

WotC:
Adept - DMG 3.5

Adept, Religious - Eberron Campaign Setting

Adept, Urban - Sharn - City of Towers

Adept, Urban Religious - Sharn - City of Towers

Aristocrat - DMG 3.5

Commoner - DMG 3.5

Diplomat - Wheel of Time Campaign Setting

Expert - DMG 3.5

Magewright, Arcane - Eberron Campaign Setting

Magewright, Psionic - Eberron Campaign Setting

Mlar - Dungeon 100

Warrior - DMG 3.5


Third-Party:
Adept, Psychic - Athas.org
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?242683-npc-classes-psionic-and-other-3rd-party

Augur - Dream Scarred Press
http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/augur

Courtesan - 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-npc-classes/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/courtesan/

Diplomat - Wheel of Time RPG

Cultist - Freeport Fifth Year Anniversary

Gleaner - Giant in the Playground
https://web.archive.org/web/20170815034614/https://www.giantitp.com/articles/gk7uKJeF296jRcx1NJw.html

Godswife of the Good Shepperd - Game of Thrones d20

Prophet - Ravenloft DMG (3.5)

Talent - Giant in the Playgroud
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?450825-Psionic-NPC-class

Thug - Traps & Treachery, Fantasy Flight Games

[Itseasytosee]

Gosh you guys are so helpful! :smallbiggrin:


Are these just classes for random people the PCs will interact with, or are you intending to mine the list for combatants? "Simple-to-use, not-too-powerful out of the box" classes are a little bit different than "objectively weak" classes. For example, Warlock is a decently strong class, especially if you optimize it. But if you're just going to throw a no-frills Warlock at the party and do nothing but plink away with Eldritch Blast each round, it's not too terribly threatening; and it's certainly easy to use.

Looking for combatants, especially good mooks and supporting characters, which I am not looking to optimize too intensely. For my big villains, I'm giving them stronger classes and putting some effort behind optimization. What I'm looking for here is for the enemies and allies that don't take center stage.

[Metastachydium]

Seconding HealerMH and would add MasterWar of the Lance (Dragonlance class; it's to Expert what Noble's to Aristocrat).

Also, if I can plug myself a little, I did a few NPC classes, available right here, incl. the
Soothsayer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?648464-The-Soothsayer-(An-NPC-Class!)-Opinions-Welcome) (fixed list NPC diviner);
Cutthroat (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650722-More-NPC-Classes-You-Didn-t-Know-You-Didn-t-Need-Persian-Plum) (NPC Rogue-type),
Imposter (NPC invoker),
Ruffian (NPC Barbarian-type) and
Graced (the Psionic Commoner).



Truenamer: Tier 5

Forget it, it's no good for PC or NPC play. Too complicated with low returns.


Mountebank

It officially makes PCs NPCs if they don't quit early enough!


Divine Mind: Tier 5

Soulborn: Tier 5

Not really. They are bad for PC use, not good for NPC use. They have resources to manage in not neccessarily intuitive ways and stuff.


Dragon Shaman: Tier 5

A bit like Marshal, but a bit better. Still, not the worst fit.


Swashbuckler: Tier 5
Knight: Tier 5


Lots of little abilities to trip up on. Wouldn't recommend as easy NPC material. Same goes for Monk/Battle Dancer.


Ninja: Tier 4

So long as you stick to low levels, it's a good NPC-tier replacement for Rogue.


Savant: Tier 4

Actually a pretty good idea. Not very strong, but quite simple. Good for support NPCs.


Fighter: Tier 4

Yep.

[Itseasytosee]

Looks like some of those links didn't attach properly

[Biggus]

OK, I see Troacctid had an updated post which cited 2023. But I don't see how adept dropped half a tier without either a new discussion thread or a new spreadsheet. And still cites the original Adept thread, and the main thread ended in 2020 (with my post last). Given the lack of data and the obviously wildly incorrect result, I will maintain Adepts place over the bottom half of T4.

Yeah, I was puzzled how come the ratings had changed, I can only guess she's received some more votes by private message. It's only in the last year or so they changed so long after the thread ended.

[Dalmosh]

I really like the 3rd party book "Darkness & Dread" by Legends & Lairs, authored by Mike Mearls. It does a lot of stuff I was left wanting from Heroes of Horror & Book of Vile Darkness, and acts as a nice extension to them.

One thing it focuses on is running a gritty, brutal survival horror game in 3.5, providing you some better mechanics and tools to do so. One thing on offer is a broad slew of very weak medieval classes designed for players to start the adventure as - things like beggar, engineer, church acolyte, kennel master etc, some of which are a bit like weaker and less flashy takes on normal classes. For a DM, they are pretty useful for padding out background stuff quickly but with much more nuance than can be done with the DMG NPC classes

[Gnaeus]

Yeah, I was puzzled how come the ratings had changed, I can only guess she's received some more votes by private message. It's only in the last year or so they changed so long after the thread ended.

Well heck, I guess my tier 5 gestalt project just got a massive upgrade. There's a lot of classes that gestalt massively with adept

[ShurikVch]

Courtier (Rokugan Campaign Setting)

[thorr-kan]

Looks like some of those links didn't attach properly
Was that addressed to me?

The classes without links only exist in hard copy, legally, that I am aware of. So no links are included.

[Itseasytosee]

No it was for @Metastachydium

[Metastachydium]

No it was for @Metastachydium

I can't legally link to Healer and Master, because I do not own them (one's 1st party, the other's officially endorsed 3rd party ("honorary 1st party", if you will)). As for the Imposter, Ruffian and Graced, they are in the same thread as the Cutthroat, so I only linked the whole lot once.

[GeneticBow23190]

Yeah I'm also inclined to agree with the Noble class from Dragonlance Campaign Setting variant, p. 50 (I think). Sounds like an npc class already. XD

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Honestly, Fighter makes a good NPC class, not because it's inherently weak, but because it's the perfect base for getting a chain of feats onto a character so they can perform some specific combat trick. Want an opponent that bludgeons your PCs down with her shield? Fighter. Counter-attack specialist? Fighter (or maybe Monk 2/Fighter X). Dual-wielding tripper? Fighter. Grappler? Totemist, but that would be fiddly and require calculations and maybe fancy tactics for optimal play so really you're better of with Fighter.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

The Expert has also moved, from low tier 5 to high tier 6. Again, not that it matters much.

Not to you maybe! Everything I had was in that tier! I was going to marry the Battle Dancer!

[Maat Mons]

For guards, I like the variant of Rogue from Unearthed Arcana that trades Sneak Attack for bonus feats from the Fighter list. I like my guards to have max ranks in Listen, Search, Spot, and Sense Motive. Neither Fighter nor Warrior lend themselves very well to that. Gather Information and Knowledge (local) are also thematic additions. But Sneak Attack just doesn’t seem like it fits, hence the variant. It may seem like being limited to light armor is an issue, but you can’t chase down fleeing criminals if you’re wearing medium or heavy armor.

[Inevitability]

For guards, I like the variant of Rogue from Unearthed Arcana that trades Sneak Attack for bonus feats from the Fighter list. I like my guards to have max ranks in Listen, Search, Spot, and Sense Motive. Neither Fighter nor Warrior lend themselves very well to that. Gather Information and Knowledge (local) are also thematic additions. But Sneak Attack just doesn’t seem like it fits, hence the variant. It may seem like being limited to light armor is an issue, but you can’t chase down fleeing criminals if you’re wearing medium or heavy armor.

Wouldn't replace-everything ranger work quite well also?

Swap out Track for Urban Tracking and Wild Empathy for Voice of the City, keep Endurance, take a dog or horse as animal companion, replace spells with Champion of the Wilds for a bonus feat like Blind-Fight or Improved Disarm, if you get to 7th-level swap Woodland Stride for Crowd-Walker. Skilled City-Dweller can supplement all the 'perceptive' skills that rangers already get with urban ones, and Favored Enemy further ups a bunch of relevant skill bonuses against specific creature types (insert joke about racial profiling here).

Combat Style pushing for TWF or ranged attacks is awkward, but there's a few dragon magazine ones that are reasonably generic and should work on a 'classic' guard flavorwise (Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike, Ride-By Attack). If you want to stay WotC publications-only, rangers of 4th level or lower could also be wildshape rangers, which before level 5 simply have fast movement instead of their combat style.

As a bonus, they get shield proficiency, which rogues do not.

[AnonJr]

Wouldn't replace-everything ranger work quite well also?

That's for the K9 unit. :smalltongue:

[CactusAir]

Nobel


The core NPC class is called "Aristocrat"

There was an attempt by whoever did the 3.5 dragonlance books (I believe i was told that the base setting book for DL in 3.5 was an official WotC product but the subsequent setting books were not) to make a PC version of this NPC class called the Noble, which... was still garbage and effectively still a NPC class and not even for NPCs capable of giving a good fight.

The DL Noble and Mariner classes are basically tier 6 and worthless for PCs, same for the Inquisitor PrC the same book introduced. There was also a blacksmith/crafter class whose name I forget that might be tier 5.

And the DL Mystic is just a Sorceror except with a cleric spell list, less spells per day, and a single domain. Strictly inferior to the Favored Soul in most respects, but still a full-9 caster and probably tier 2-3.

Basically whoever wrote a lot of the classes for the 3.5 DL books was just really really bad at it. The Nightstalker PC class is actually decently playable tho (and also from a different book than the sucky classes I just mentioned so possibly from another author) - think of it as kinda like a Lurk with divine casting instead of psionics.

[rel]

I quite like the sorcerer and favoured soul as an NPC class to represent magic users. With the right spell and feat selections, the power level can be tuned very precisely. All the way down to T6 if necessary.

And if you give an NPC both classes and mystic theurge, you can give them a fair bit of survivability through extra hit dice, and bucket loads of sustain with all the spell slots, while keeping the actual power level quite low since they're quite far behind on casting progression and again, you're choosing their spells.

Perfect for an NPC magic user, who can always have the exact curative or utility spell (arcane or divine) the PC's need ready to go, but is pretty useless when it comes to actually going on adventures and thus literally can't upstage the PC's.

[Luccan]

Samurai and Swashbuckler from Complete Warrior are like crappy pre-built Fighters, so they'll tend to play about the same across characters like the NPC classes would

[Maat Mons]

And the DL Mystic is just a Sorceror except with a cleric spell list, less spells per day, and a single domain. Strictly inferior to the Favored Soul in most respects, but still a full-9 caster and probably tier 2-3.

Mystic has the same number of spells per day as Sorcerer. Not sure where you’re getting the idea that it doesn’t.

Mystic also gets bumped up to d8 hit dice, medium base attack bonus, and a good Fortitude save, and they get medium armor and shields. Nothing earth shattering, but worth mentioning when doing a compare and contrast with Sorcerer.

Favored Soul has one of those horrid split chastising stats. Charisma for max spell level and spells per day, Wisdom for save DCs. Granted, you can play a pure support caster so you don’t have to care about save DCs, but it would be nice to have the option to use spells that offer saving throws. Mystic just uses Wisdom for spellcasting. That leaves you only one mental ability score to worry about, without needing to leave anything on the table. Wisdom is a better score to focus on than Charisma, since it adds to Will saves.

I’ll grant you that Favored Soul does have than sweet Deity’s Favor ACF from PHB2 though.

It still kind of puzzles me why the creators of Favored Soul decided to mandate you have to worship a deity though. Not that Mystic is any better, since it mandates that you can’t worship a deity. Cleric had the right idea by allowing you to do whichever you wanted.

[Luccan]

Also, similar to Marshal, Dragon Shaman is mostly passive Auras with slight differences in skills and abilities based on your chosen color of Dragon. Works well for all sorts of draconic lieutenants without being complex or ultra powerful. Also they get a breath weapon and a Lay On Hands type ability, so they have direct effects that will make them feel more distinct from the Marshal.

[Metastachydium]

There was also a blacksmith/crafter class whose name I forget that might be tier 5.

That will be one of the four focuses for MasterWotL. I quite like that class, actually, especially the sage (I love Lore abilities and its INT to hit is a nice Knack). Professional is a weird one, but with all that extra cohort/followers syuff it can get surprisingly strong.


Favored Soul has one of those horrid split chastising stats.

…and no domains. Really, Favoured Soul is easily the worst spontaneous divine caster in the game.

[Inevitability]

That will be one of the four focuses for MasterWotL. I quite like that class, actually, especially the sage (I love Lore abilities and its INT to hit is a nice Knack). Professional is a weird one, but with all that extra cohort/followers syuff it can get surprisingly strong.



…and no domains. Really, Favoured Soul is easily the worst spontaneous divine caster in the game.

Eh, having 9ths alone probably still puts it above the divine bard.

...and for that matter, the Emissary of Barachiel. :smalltongue:

[Metastachydium]

Eh, having 9ths alone probably still puts it above the divine bard.

...and for that matter, the Emissary of Barachiel. :smalltongue:

Heh. Fair. Let's call it a medalist, then. (Also, Divine Bard is at least somewhat interesting in comparison, with all the actual class features and that spell list, if indeed weaker.)

[Gnaeus]

Its certainly superior to Gleaner. Honestly, I'd rate it above Spirit Shaman, if you consider Spirit Shaman a spontaneous caster.

[Metastachydium]

Its certainly superior to Gleaner.

Eh, homebrew is a slippery slope. Let's not go there.


Honestly, I'd rate it above Spirit Shaman, if you consider Spirit Shaman a spontaneous caster.

I kinda don't. But while I'd pick it over Favoured Soul any day on account of its cool casting mechanism (and flavour) alone, you kinda have a point. They did what they could to nerf it into the ground. Still, even with the Druid list, not having spell access delayed and the freedom to swap out spells gives it some clear edge.

[Gnaeus]

I spent most of my time as a Spirit Shaman wishing I was a Favored Soul. The druid list may be better than the cleric list. But after you cut out everything that is only helpful to a companion, or in wildshape, or that is a 1/day buff you don't want to cast 4 times, it is significantly worse. And if you don't have 100% knowledge of everything you are going to be fighting, or you do but those fights aren't all in the same narrow categories, the 3 or 4 best generalist cleric spells are almost always overwhelmingly better than the best specific spell on the druid list for that day. Worst case, if you do need a generalist spell, you can wind up with something like Heal, one of the best 7th level Druid generalist spells, so you essentially have Heal and a level 6 Druid spell compared with 4 level 6 and 3 level 7 cleric choices, one of which is also Heal. Admittedly, MY DM usually has major high level casters take steps to prevent scrying, and often have unusual templates that aren't immediately obvious, so pretty much any important fight we did NOT have perfect info, and if you pick an anti-vermin spell its a certainty that the vermin you are fighting is an outsider or an aberration. It is possible that SS might be better in a more forgiving play environment.

[RexDart]

Factotum might be fun, though it's pretty complex, especially as a combat class.

My DM recently let each player create a "non-combat" ally NPC, who will help manage the stronghold and mining operation we've just acquired. I made a factotum who's mainly a merchant type, but can be decent with any skill due to Jack of All Trades and a Wand of Divine Insight.

Anyway, I haven't looked deeply into it, but putting him together, I was struck by how he could be fairly decent in combat despite my not actually trying to build him for that in any way.

The fun might be making a Factotum the big bad's major domo or something. The party figures she just does the paperwork or whatever and may foolishly underestimate her.

[rel]

Factotum might be fun, though it's pretty complex, especially as a combat class.

My DM recently let each player create a "non-combat" ally NPC, who will help manage the stronghold and mining operation we've just acquired. I made a factotum who's mainly a merchant type, but can be decent with any skill due to Jack of All Trades and a Wand of Divine Insight.

Anyway, I haven't looked deeply into it, but putting him together, I was struck by how he could be fairly decent in combat despite my not actually trying to build him for that in any way.

The fun might be making a Factotum the big bad's major domo or something. The party figures she just does the paperwork or whatever and may foolishly underestimate her.

With enough feats sunk into Font of Inspiration, a Factotum can deliver some impressive nova damage.
But a simple NPC to run it is not :p